Work It Like A Mum
Work It Like A Mum
From Bank Notes to Tech Totes: Gabi’s Epic Career Pivot!
Thinking about shaking things up in your industry? Dive into this episode where Gabi Preston-Phypers, the powerhouse behind Tooled-Up Raccoons, spills the beans on swapping her investment banking heels for tech entrepreneurial boots. But here's the real kicker – Gabi's not just sharing her own shift; she's giving us a fresh, eye-opening view on recruitment, one painted with vibrant strokes of neurodiversity and inclusion. The result? A recruitment landscape that’s not just changing – it’s getting cleverer, quicker, and more connected.
Ever tried juggling a C-suite title and bedtime stories? Gabi’s been there, worn that t-shirt, and she's got some tales to tell. We unpick the tightrope act that working parents perform daily and highlight why it’s time workplaces championed their parental tribes without the side-eye. From encouraging real talk about fatherhood to embracing flexible hours, Gabi's insights are a breath of fresh air for any organisation still stuck in the '9-to-5, no-exceptions' era.
This episode unravels the complexities working parents face and the need for organisations to amplify the voices of parents without judgment or shame. From fostering an open and supportive environment to involving fathers in parenting discussions and offering flexible work arrangements, Gabi enlightens us on the importance of respect and empathy in the workplace.
Ultimately, the conversation evolves around the core philosophy of team mentality. We look at the challenges of running a family business and the role that technology plays in enhancing the recruitment process. Gabi delivers a riveting perspective on how a supportive environment, coupled with technology, can empower recruiters to locate the best talent. So, buckle up and join us for a thought-provoking conversation that will stir your curiosity and challenge your perspectives.
Show Links:
Connect with Gabi on LinkedIn
Connect with Elizabeth on LinkedIn
Tooled Up Raccoons Website
Sign up for our newsletter and never miss an episode!
Follow us on Instagram.
Join over 1 million customers and counting who are saving money on their household bills with Utility Warehouse. Discover how much you can save here.
And here's your invite to our supportive and empowering Facebook Group, Work It Like a Mum - a supportive and safe networking community for professional working mothers. Our community is full of like-minded female professionals willing to offer support, advice or a friendly ear. See you there!
Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willits and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life. I'm a working mum with over 17 years of recruitment experience and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women Job Board and Community. In this show, I'm honoured to be chatting with remarkable women redefining our working world across all areas of business. They'll share their secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success after children, set boundaries and balance, the challenges they've faced and how they've overcome them to define their own versions of success. Shy away from the real talk? No way. Money struggles, growth, loss, boundaries and balance we cover it all. Think of this as coffee with your mates, the mixed with an inspiring TED talk sprinkled with the career advice you wish you'd really had at school. So grab a cup of coffee or a glass of wine and make sure you cozy and get ready to get inspired and chase your boldest dreams, or just survive Mondays. This is the Work. It Like a Mum podcast. This episode is brought to you by Investing in Women. Investing in Women is a job board and recruitment agency helping you find your dream part time or flexible job with the UK's most family friendly and forward thinking employers. Their site can help you find a professional and rewarding job that works for you. They're proud to partner with the UK's most family friendly employers across a range of professional industries, Ready to find your perfect job? Search their website at investinginwomencouk to find your next part time or flexible job opportunity. Now back to the show.
Speaker 1:Hello, and welcome to another episode of our podcast. Today I'm delighted to introduce you to a woman who's not only redefining the recruitment industry, but is also championing the cause of diversity and inclusion Gabby Preston Pfeifers. Gabby has a rich background from working with financial giants in investment banking, and today she's the CEO and co-founder of Tooled Up Raccoons, an innovative technology company transforming the world of recruitment. Gabby's mission is to empower recruiters with the tools they need to find the best candidates quickly and efficiently. But Gabby is not just a technology entrepreneur she's also a strong advocate for neurodiversity. As a dyslexic herself, Gabby's unique insights have been instrumental in shaping inclusive practices within her own company and the broader recruitment industry. Today we will dive into Gabby's journey, her views on the future of recruitment and how her experiences, both personal and professional, have shaped her approach to business. So sit back, grab a cuppa and let's dive in. Thank you, Gabby, for joining us. It's a pleasure. I'm really excited to chat with you.
Speaker 2:So excited to be here and I love that you even referenced grabbing a cuppa. I'm actually sitting here with a giant cuppa. That's basically right to my head. That is a huge cuppa.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's how I survive. Absolutely, oh, lots of cuppa. I think that is the fuel that working her particularly mom needs. It's just a cuppa.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just a cuppa. I mean to be fair, though.
Speaker 2:I actually cut out caffeine for a while because I was finding, like when I had a young, when Maria was 18, like really little. Actually she's 18 months now, but I just found, like jumping up and down on that caffeine level, I was like actually I need to like normalize my body and just let it get used to the fact you are sleep deprived, you're exhausted, and just let it be so I can actually listen to my body more. And I found the caffeine threw me off center more than it actually aided me functioning as a human being, but that's slightly off point, but anyway, wow. So how old are your children now then? So Phoebe's four and a half. So I start school in September and Maria is just about seven, 19 months.
Speaker 1:When did you get them? So, was it your husband's company? Is that right? And then you worked with them. Tell us the history of Field Up Rockoons.
Speaker 2:So I guess, if we start the beginning so, I started my career in investment banking at JPMorgan, did that for nearly eight years. Then I was like enough's enough. There was various things going on. I was like this just isn't my vibe, this isn't making me feel good, this isn't completing me and I was like this isn't really conducive lifestyle to where I want to be when I have kids and all this kind of great stuff.
Speaker 2:So I was like let's jump. Jumped out to selling software for an accounting company out in Canada and was that before you had your children? So I felt pregnant. When I got there I was that woman. No, that is interesting.
Speaker 1:So you left the investment bank before you had kids.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Do you not? Yeah, it's interesting because I did that as well. I did that when I worked for Hayes and it was because I wanted children and I looked at the other moms and I thought, oh, parents predominantly the moms, because I suppose there's a woman that's who you're looking at and I thought it's too long hours.
Speaker 2:I didn't want that lifestyle and I had kids and I thought a little bit like Sharon Sandberg book she does mention this about women leaning out before they need to and I think I was guilty of that- you need to right, I think, with everything, with your career, if you are planning on having children, whether you're a mom or a dad, like parent it's core of parenting you have to look at the environment you're in, determine the type of parent you want to be and then start molding your life to enable you to be the best version of yourself, in whatever guys that is. And for me, one of the really critical things was I did look around at the other parents. I looked at the dads who were there. I looked at the moms who had day nannies and night nannies and for them that works. Like I was, like that's cool, that's you. I wasn't the parent I wanted to be.
Speaker 2:And I remember attending a women's networking right, got a lot of women's networking event in Bound King and they stood up on a stage, this amazing woman and she'd been so successful and they threw out the statement how have you been successful in business and as a parent? Yeah, and she was like I've got a day nanny, a night nanny. I fly everywhere. My nanny comes with me everywhere. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And I just sat there and went no, just you, you're a parenting, someone else parenting your children. And, like I said earlier, that worked for her but for me I was like I'm not going to go through the adventure of being pregnant for nine months, yeah, and then I've not seen my children Like it's parent I wanted to be and I was really crystal clear on that.
Speaker 2:So I was like, unfortunately that meant I had to step away from the career I was in yeah, to enable me to go and do something anyway. It was really hard because there was so much about banking that I enjoyed. I actually love the stress, I loved the drama, I loved the high pressure work environment. Like it's just it makes me buzz to like problem-solve and have my brain ticking and people demanding stuff of you that you had to push and you had to be on it all the time. But I knew that career wouldn't be consistent. So I actually had to make the really tough decision of being like I'm going to step away from this career, this industry in totality, and I'd step away and learn how to redefine who I was and what kind of career would enable me to be the mom and the wife and everything I actually wanted to be as a person that family life you wanted to create.
Speaker 1:The bank wasn't supporting.
Speaker 2:But it does suck that parents have to make that decision. I had to sacrifice my children, like sacrifice my job, not my children, rather, but for me, in all fairness, it was horrible at the time but now I'm so glad I did what I did to be and have the career I have now. But I'm very fortunate. Not many women have that luxury where they can just go. I'm going to step out and I'm going to try something new and it works. Some people step out because they have to and then their career doesn't go as they plan. And then there is this negative resentment. I don't think in this day and age, parents full stops should have to make that decision of having one or the other. There should be a way that companies empower them to be like okay, cool, yes, maybe you can't do the job that requires you to be there 24, seven.
Speaker 2:And that's fine, but it's also not about benching them to just be like that. You have to go and do a lower job. I mean one of the jobs I was in when I returned to work after having feed, they were like you can't do a sales job because you're now a mom. Because they were like you've got a conflict of ink, like you don't have what's it, you don't have the attention because if your kid is sick, you're going to want to leave. Of course you are. But I mean, but the same fact applies, right, I met Mitch and my husband run our 17. We were married by the time we were 21. I'm 36 now, right, but the same rules apply. Like, if my husband, if Mitch, was sick, yeah, I'm sorry, he takes priority over you, so, agnostic of whether it's a child or a parent or a family member, right, if they need me, their need for me is greater than your need for me. I go, I'm going to go, but that doesn't mean I can't do my job and I actually.
Speaker 1:You are not committed. You know the 99% of the other side.
Speaker 2:You're just weird, and what drives me nuts is I'm a huge advocate for this. Okay, so people who have children have this whole other realm that they elevate to in terms of organization and getting stuff done. Like, there's so many training programs out there. Right, for organizing yourself and communicating better, right, but as soon as you have a kid, you learn how to read cues of their face, of sounds of expression. So your ability to understand things, your ability to get yourself organized, your ability to get stuff done in the smallest nap time humanly possible because you know they're going to wake up as soon as they sniff you moving, right, you learn so much.
Speaker 2:So actually, when a parent comes back to work, they're not the person that left. They are not. They are on steroids, absolutely bossing it, running it live, and they will deliver more for you than you imagined. But businesses fail. As soon as a woman turns around and goes I'm pregnant, they go right, you're done, I'm going to bench you. And then, when you come back, I'm still going to bench you because I now think you're a parent and they've labeled you and they just do it to women as well.
Speaker 1:I'm very rare. I don't know if I've ever seen a man benched.
Speaker 2:But that's because, do you know what? Do you know when they started splitting with paternity leave and saying, oh, you can have six months and the other partner can have six months, and I had a friend of mine who actually did it. She did the first six and he took the second six and he was absolutely wicked about it.
Speaker 2:But I remember turning around to some men and going oh see, your wife, is she going to have the six? And you're going to have the six. And they were like, absolutely not, it will ruin my career. And I, literally I was like, so why is it okay for her to ruin her career, but not you? And they're like I'm the man, I'm not, I'll do me a favor. Your position in the world is you're no more important than she is. And I actually felt really angry in this moment. I was literally like how do I contain my anger? Because it was so dismissive of that. I mean, she may choose not to come back to work. She may choose to stay at home and do what she needs to do. That's again, that's her choice. But it should be her choice, not an enforcement of society saying, well, actually, now you're a mom, that is what you're worth and that is where you're going to stay. It's just ridiculous.
Speaker 1:So how do you I mean, it's so, it's so layered, it's not so taught now talked about companies that obviously have this expectation, but then we've talked about society and then obviously couples. It comes down to that individual level as well. So it's a lot that needs to be unwrapped and unraveled, and doesn't it? Yeah, so I mean, I guess the easiest thing to change is probably personal. So how do you think we get more equality in the workplace from a personal perspective?
Speaker 2:How do you authority in the workplace, find a company that truly leads with a parent or a person who gets it? It's sad to say, but a lot of companies are trying to make that pivot to give people a voice in the workplace, to give them that inclusivity, that choice of how they manage their lives as they move into being a parent or whether it's adoption, natural, whatever means it comes by. But the problem is there's some of the groups I have seen and it's not all of them, it's some of them are just this. It's a PR exercise. They're talking but fundamentally the senior leaders don't believe in it, they're not backing it, they're not evidencing change of discussion. So if we look at return to work, policies for parents or how you handle parents going on, leave right, it's if you cut them off as soon as they say they're having a baby and you're like, well, you're not coming to any senior meetings, you're not getting involved in anything, and then actually all this stuff is happening while you're away. You can just come into work. I'm not going to bring you up to speed because you just can't handle it right. So I think there's a lot of this, a lot of talking, but not enough action being like right, this is the policy, this is the procedure every single manager is trained in how to empower a voice and empower people to speak up.
Speaker 2:I mean, I remember when I fell pregnant. I was very much. I found out when I was like three weeks with Phoebe. I went straight into my manager and went this is a situation. Obviously, most people wait for the till. They've done the 20 week scan and everything's fine. But I was like, at the end of the day, give my company notice so that we can start planning together for what that looks like. Yeah, in nine months time, when I go missing in action, right, yeah, a lot of people, a lot of women, don't feel comfortable having that discussion. Right, they don't. They have this fear of telling someone that they're pregnant and there is nothing, especially in those early days. Right, it's scary. It's so scary you don't know what's going to happen and it's like if it's your first time. You have no idea what you're doing. Right, You're just like. I feel sick constantly. I don't feel like myself.
Speaker 1:My hormones are out yeah, whatever, yeah.
Speaker 2:You should. Companies need to find a way to actually make people feel like it's not something they should be shamed by, and I think that's the thing. There is so much fear about her speaking your truth. I mean, we talk about it for neurodiversity, we can do about it for parenting, talk about anything and it all stems and I firmly believe this at the fault of the managers in the organization. Yeah, and it's not necessarily just the CEO, because they, they I love how they've defaulted to he in that sentence.
Speaker 1:How was that, yeah, but do you know what it is? I think there's more CEOs called John there's something random or Steve, a random name, than there are women. I get to self correct.
Speaker 2:Consider that self corrected. The person ahead of the company definitely has to promote a voice in terms of what's going on and have policies around it, but also the management that sits underneath them need to be taught how to come at it from a neutral perspective, because I've had men talk to me about the fact that I am a mum and a CEO, as if they know what it is like to be a mum and a CEO. What they are is projecting how they've seen their wives handle being a mum and they therefore they're like well, she did this and she did that. Therefore, that applies to you with each individuals, and this is where this teaching management how to handle these discussions and not in a softly, softly way, but be like it's cool, you're pregnant, cool, this is wicked. What do you want to do? What do you need to happen? We talk about flexible working and working from home and all this kind of great stuff when you return, but there's this conversation that needs to happen with parents much sooner, and it's not just happening with the mum. Have it with the dad. The dad is also about to go through a huge hormonal adventure for the last.
Speaker 2:Next, I want to say nine to 10 months. But let's be honest, it carries on afterwards with sleep deprivation. But the dads need to be included in this. Like, what does that dad need? Like if they, like I really suffered with morning sickness with Phoebe. It was horrific, like I just couldn't eat. I was still trying to work. There was no option to be like Gabs, do you want to start late, finish early? Or like when is your period of feeling absolutely horrific? Like, for me, it was all day, unfortunately, so that would have meant I'd have just been off work all the time.
Speaker 2:But at least someone turning around and going. You're having a really tough time. Would it help if we did this with your schedule?
Speaker 1:Could it be a thing where it doesn't put a burden on other teammates, because you never want that right and I'm also thinking like it's sort of easy for a larger company because they've got resources to absorb tasks, but small businesses, where there's a handful and me and you are both in a small business, being perfectly nice would struggle to, you know, pull things off and give it to other people when you don't have loads of resources.
Speaker 2:But again, what's really funny, I think we don't give humans enough credit. So, yes, no matter how unwell you are feeling, if you had spoken like, let's put, the dynamic is in, you're my manager, right, and I've said I'm pregnant and I've got really horrific morning sickness. If you said, look, do you know what Gabs? Actually, how about you start your day at this time, you can finish at this time and whatever it may be, but we actually spoke about it. When you speak to people in a respectful way and an empathetic way, their willingness to go the extra mile for you is exponentially higher. Yeah, you go. Okay, you're feeling sick. Okay, just sit there.
Speaker 2:When you've seen those managers come in absolutely hammered and they've got hangover and yet they expect you to pick up sight for them, it's having that respect for each other, having the discussion, being willing to give a bit. Because even if you just said, like, start at 10, if your morning sickness is like when you're meant to be in the office, I will make the covering work Like it's not forever and again, it's a moment in time. And actually, if we can treat each other like human beings during that moment in time, if someone had treated me like that, my energy and desire to come back to that company would be higher. Because if I needed that little bit of flex, like Maria didn't sleep through until she was 14 months. She worked every single hour for 14 months of my life, right? I mean, honestly, how the hell I found her during the round.
Speaker 2:I was like I don't even know what coffee For an employer to turn around and go look like they asked. They're like how are you? You're like I'm not sleeping, right, and then just shrugging off and moving on. It's actually really what was the point of asking the question Again? It feeds into that. I'm not caring about the answer. But listen to the question. Listen to the answer that's coming back from this parent, like again mum, dad, whatever you want to call yourselves, listen to the answer and then go. Actually, if you're not sleeping, would it help if we did this?
Speaker 2:And then like for me, for example, like let's pretend I was working with someone else, because I've been working with myself now for like the whole of Maria's life. But if they said that to me and gone, okay, do you know what? If you're not sleeping, if your daughter wakes up at, say, seven, would you be able to start work at nine or ten? And then what I could do is speak to my husband and be like, look, is there any way your employee could give you the same air cover where you start at ten? But I can have some kip here. We both started ten and we work it out the rest of the day.
Speaker 2:It's conversations like that, that it's just a little bit of thought, just a little bit of thought and consideration. And I know a lot of people are like, well, that's then treating the parent different. So to others who don't have children. But it's not about that, it's not about you have something and I don't have it. We're not kids, we're adults.
Speaker 2:And there are going to be moments in that other person's life who doesn't have children when they will need something from their employer where they can go. Actually, I'm having a tough time, whatever the situation is, and you sit down and have an adult conversation and ask for what that looks like to help you through that period. And again, all these demands they're not even demands. I hate the words demand. All these asks, again, are a moment in time to help build a relationship with that employer and employee, to give them what they need in that situation where it doesn't put a burden on others. And, yeah, there are going to be moments we're going to have to pick up each other's slack, but we're a team and that's what we need to re-emphasise. I think there's too many individuals out there in organisations who think I first, it's I want, I want, I want, I want, I want.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but a lot of companies have set up, like I'm just thinking about when I worked in agency we had boards up and it was like your individual name how much you'd build that month, how many calls you'd done, how many interviews you'd arranged. It wasn't really and I think I don't think my job was necessarily unusual. In a lot of probably like the front office type roles as well, are the sales of revenue generating to think about.
Speaker 2:Like my husband you know, it's all about how much he'd build Yep, so he doesn't have time to pick up someone else's slack.
Speaker 1:No, and it does create a very selfish mentality, because then if you're not acknowledged for a team's performance or helping other people, there is a little bit of that. As an individual, well, I should ask, I'm not getting rewarded for that.
Speaker 2:If you think about it, if you go into a sales role, if I said, look, I can't work this, the odds are I'm in your team, so if I can't work it and I need to make other means, you're going to get a cut of my deal.
Speaker 1:But not all companies are set up like that, are they? Because they still and that's what I'm saying. So I think companies maybe they have. You know, traditionally a lot of them have been set up to reward individual contribution.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, but this, for me, is what I hate like, at the end of the day, a team is a team. A team, a company, does not sink or swim based on one person's actions.
Speaker 1:It's quite dangerous as well, because if your staff perform a leaves, then you are screwed as a company.
Speaker 2:Then you are ruined. But we all. I understand there are individual contributor roles out there right, that is kind of why they're called individual contributor roles. But if we step back from that and go back into the stepping of thinking like a human being and caring about each other, actually I don't like organizations that only think about I first. I hate management that only thinks about I first. It's employee abuse, it's abuse of your colleagues. It doesn't breed an environment where anyone wants to come in and like we talk about things like mental health and all this kind of great stuff.
Speaker 2:But then we go and encourage organizations to exist that are I, I, I, I, where there is no room to turn around and go. I'm struggling, could someone help me? Because the result is going to be someone going. I know, I'm all right, I'm too busy. No one in the world is too busy to help another human being. That's just fact. But we allow that mentality to breed.
Speaker 2:Let them it's just it's ridiculous, it makes no sense. Businesses succeed better as a unit. That's why we have team networking days and motivational stuff. Right, we don't just do it for the fun of it, we do it because it breeds that team mentality. So you're willing to invest in a social event going to an island because you're a top performer? You need to bring it back home to the desk and the company and the periods you're working. That mentality needs to be stored there and we need to have each other's backs. That's what society should be, not just during that nice first bit of COVID where I'm like I love you all, but actually forever and forever and ever. I've seen more people slip into selfish behavior now than ever before and it's alarming. There's no need. Since COVID, do you mean? Since COVID, like the first bit of COVID, everyone was like checking on their neighbors, really caring, and then we've kind of come out of it.
Speaker 1:We weren't encouraged to snitch on our neighbors, they weren't we. It wasn't that caring it was. There was someone delaying, wasn't there that you weren't encouraged to snitch?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it's an interesting debate. I don't know why I brought up COVID, because this could get really dangerous on a podcast, right, but you were encouraged to snitch, and I mean each their own who did what they needed to do, right. Again, you have to live with the consequences of your behavior. I'll live in my bubble, you do you. But in terms of that element, like we had neighbors next to us who were elderly and we always went in and checked. We always checked on them. We were going to supermarket. We're young, fit and healthy.
Speaker 2:So I was like, if you need something from the shops and you're not comfortable and they weren't going out, I'd go and get it for them. Yeah, like it wasn't an issue. It was like, yes, I'm busy, yes, I'm flat out with the girls and business and all this kind of stuff, but that's not an excuse not to care for the person next to you. And if you can see they're struggling, like if they are a parent or having mental health issues, like, yes, you may not be able to solve the situation, but by giving them the room to speak openly, by being like I need a little bit of help Again, like if I'd been a single parent with Maria not sleeping. I would have loved a colleague to turn running again.
Speaker 1:Our neighbor to buy some tea and bring you some tea around.
Speaker 2:It's that community spirit. And, yes, we go back to putting applying this all to the business world, because that's what we're talking about here. Yes, we're trying to grow our business. Yes, companies want to grow and take over the world and make millions, and people who need flex are sometimes seen as an expense and just a royal pain in the ass, quite frankly. But that's not the case. If you give a little, that will give you 20 times more what you gave them, and if they don't, then I think that says everything about an employer, but you could have hired somebody that was full time and they would have had that.
Speaker 1:You know that is nothing to do with whether that person works for like Fiona, that's just that individual.
Speaker 2:Absolutely not. The individual is, but you being able to assess that actually they're not a good egg and you need to take them out of the organization because they're going moldy. And then that molds and ripple. We'll see if there was a picture somewhere. There's a video somewhere about having a moldy orange in a fruit bowl and because that orange was moldy, it made everything else moldy like so much quicker than the fruit would have done.
Speaker 2:It's exactly like that in companies. If you have a piece of fruit or a person that isn't willing to look after a teammate, isn't willing to check their OK, isn't willing to go, look, you need to go and have a half an hour to yourself. You have a bit of a rough moment. I'll cover the desk while you're gone, Don't worry about it. You have to ask yourself as a business owner do you really want a team that operates like that? And I personally I don't want moldy people in my company. I want people who care about each other and move after each other above everything else. Like money is secondary to my. Like the happiness. That's just reality.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I will anyway. So what drew you then? You were working in a sales role and you went I'm a tender to leave. And then what drew you then to self employment. Was that something you always wanted to do, or how did you end up self-employed?
Speaker 2:I've always been a bit of a pain in the ass. Quite frankly.
Speaker 1:I'm a very big character and I'm very much like I do need more big characters, especially when we're being more big characters, so I love those yeah.
Speaker 2:Big characters. But the problem is I was working in an environment where, like, if I don't, if I see someone's being mistreated or I see something's not being done as it should be done, I'm going to call it. And if someone just says, oh, that's just how it's done, I'm like that's not good enough. I am that pain, I am that person and I remember for a while people tried to silence that voice and I was like no, because if I've got a voice about it, then it's for a good reason. I don't just make noise for the moment. And I knew for a while I wanted to start my own business, but then when I returned to work and they tried to demote me because I was a mum, I was like, yeah, what's the problem? I want to be the role model to my children, where if an employee says that to them like I've got two little girls right when they're older if an employee says that to them, I don't want them to go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, someone said that to mommy and she stayed. What I said to the role model I want to be to my kids is if someone tells you, you can't do something. So in this instance I can't be a mum and work in X role. I don't want to be around people who don't believe in where I can be and what I can achieve. So I'm going to step out and, really luckily for me, for years Mitch had been nagging me something chronic to join the recruitment business and, honestly, nonstop being like come and join. I was like I'm not ready to give up my career and that's what I felt like at the time. I was giving up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, joining me, I wasn't joining it.
Speaker 2:I was escaping something and I was like I want to move into something I want to be in. And actually at that point when I looked at myself kind of I had had 12 months off with Phoebe I looked at myself in the mirror and was like what's the mum I want to be? How much presence do I want to have in her world? And my conclusion was that I want to be present for everything, by my choice and where I was working and the environment just wasn't going to enable me to do that. And again, the environment wasn't making me the best version of myself. I didn't feel good.
Speaker 2:So I was like I'm stepping out, joined Mitch's recruitment company but I, instead of joining it to recruit because I was like, look, I don't want to recruit, it's not, it's not my bag I said why don't I come in as an operations director and I will literally look at all your technology stack, I'll look at all of your processes and I'll literally strip it, pull it and put it back together again. And I do remember the accountant. Our accountant at the time was like don't work with your wife, like what on earth are you doing?
Speaker 1:I was going to say because you hear, I do not read so much on LinkedIn people post about how much stick they get if they're trying to get investment, if they are their co-founder is their partner and I didn't realize it's so frowned upon, actually, until I see it is.
Speaker 2:It's mad In my mind. Yeah, okay, not all relationships are strong enough to do this right. But, like I said, we've been together since we were 17, got married at 21, 36 now and we've got two kids together. Like, we've done the unsettledness, we've done the kind of ups and downs of handling life together, but actually what's amazing about working with your spouse is the fact that he is my equal and opposite, if that makes sense. So, like things I love doing. Like I love like yesterday I was at the firm event and I was speaking at 25 minutes speaking event Absolutely loved it. I was absolutely in my element. Like teaching people, energizing people, like all this great stuff, and I love things like that. I love being in a customer success role. I love talking to new people. Mitch does not like being at social events like that, does not like going on social media to do LinkedIn posts and all this kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:Not like that. Is your office here, actually, I mean, I don't follow him.
Speaker 2:I mean literally. Mitch is my head of product. He is such a geek when he comes to the tech but he designs all our user interfaces, like loves Boolean as much as I do. But we literally equal and opposite each other and there are obviously those tasks that we both hate, that we're both like you have to follow the accounts. It's like Derek, so you find your way. But what I love and what's been most powerful about our dynamic is because we're in it together.
Speaker 2:In those moments where I hadn't slept because I was feeding Maria all night, he'd be like do you know what? Block your calendar tomorrow morning. I'll take the girls for a couple of hours. You can sleep, yeah, no questions asked. And we keep each other going and keep each other moving forward because, like, there's a common goal right, we want to have the complete, we want to grow the company, we want to scale it to be absolutely ginormous right. But I also want to be near my kids.
Speaker 2:My office is 10 steps away from my house. I had the door open the other day, actually, and Maria was screaming her guts out. She'd hurt herself. I could hear it. I was on a call with a prospect and I was like I'm really sorry. My daughter's crying and it's a cry that means I need to move my ass. Can I come back? And they were like absolutely. My relationship with my clients is so very genuine and it's like we are a family business and if my kids need me, I'm sorry you're going to have to wait five and I literally ran off for five minutes, came back, we jumped back on, we moved on with our conversation. But because I've got that family dynamic, it just it works. It makes the business more focused because we've got everything to lose right. All our money is in the business. So if you've ever seen a pair more motivated to work insane hours without our kids being sacrificed, that is exactly what happened. So why investors don't like it?
Speaker 1:I think you think a lot of restaurants are family run. You know a lot of pubs you go to.
Speaker 2:a like is a marriage couple behind the bar or they're the most successful ones, right, because people buy into who they are, buy into the journey they're going on. They say in sales right, people buy from people. Right, I never, ever hard sell to all that recognition to anyone. I don't see the point. They buy into them as an individual and they buy into me as who I am, as Gabby, who I am, as a mum, who I am as a business owner. The journey, what we're trying to do, that's what they buy into. And we're a family business, like it doesn't matter. It doesn't make us any less successful. I'd actually say we're a safer bet than a business who has two people who are just mates. What's the skin in the game? What is the skin in the game? And that dynamic? Right, you can still fall out with your best mate. People do it, fortunately, if I fall out with Mitch and still marry to him, so I have to stick around right.
Speaker 2:At least you have that.
Speaker 1:You've got a little bit more actually tying you together.
Speaker 2:Exactly, I can't just leave, I can't just be like I don't like you. Well good, really awkward.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a lot more to unravel. So how do you set boundaries, then? And not do you talk about work all the time, because that must be, like you know, tempting to either talk about work or talk about the kids then it is do you know what?
Speaker 2:Mitch and I were going to go on a date today. Like Mitch and I have not been on a date since premarie of Inboard and we were going to go on a date today, but it's works too busy, works too busy. So actually the only people that probably Sacrifice the most is Mitch and I. In terms of being Mitch and I right, our most important thing is that the girls never feel like they're missing out. The girls always have one of us. The girls have always got what they need from us, and then when they're asleep, we talk about work, because we do.
Speaker 2:We try our best. It is really hard, but we try our best to be like, if they're awake and functioning, unless it's absolutely urgent, let's not talk business. So it tends to be activities that we're going to do with them, right? And then when they go to sleep, we'll then chat, work for half an hour and then we will literally Mitch will come into the office and I'll be in the house and we'll be on laptops working. It is relentless, it is non-stop and you give everything right. You give you all to make it work and it has to work. So actually find set those boundaries. We tried we do try to set a boundary in terms of we'll finish work at x, but at the end of the day, we're a small business. We're trying to scale. We're getting more and more clients on. There's more and more demands on what we need to do, so you have to step up and that's what we've had to do. So, sorry world, no clean boundaries in this household.
Speaker 1:I get it and I don't work with my husband, but I do get it because, in a way, even though he doesn't work in the business, it becomes a lot of that and unofficial advisor, don't they? And take his advice a lot. I'll be honest on things.
Speaker 2:They guide you. But I think that's true in any relationship, like whether you're working on a business on your own or whether you're working for someone. Your work is a huge chunk of your time. I always joke about the fact that you're the people you work with are almost like your second husband or wife, because you spend so much time with them. And actually, when you're not running your own business, you each are individually Doing your own jobs and have your own stresses and strains at those jobs. You then come home and then you've got the stresses of the kids love them and then you've got the stresses of owning a house and running a household and keeping it, cleaning, making sure there's food in and the laundry Is done, and like you're just looking at each other going. Oh my god, when do we get time together? But I don't think that's any different?
Speaker 2:I didn't. That's really different to anyone. Yeah, working with someone else right, it's about being kind to yourself, knowing when you need to set a boundary. So I actually we laugh like I say I don't have boundaries. I do have boundaries. I will never, ever, have a business call over the girls. Dinner and bedtime. Yeah, if that means I have a call at nine, ten o'clock at night, I will have a call at nine, ten o'clock at night. Those little people come first For me. I'd rather work late and have that end of day moment with them and that's Mitch and I. Mitch and I will not Work over that.
Speaker 1:So what's your day? Look like I was gonna say you've got a four year old and an eight 19 month year old, 19.
Speaker 2:The same so well. Yesterday I was in Bristol all day, so I basically business woman day and event. I was out all day. But this morning was Mitch and I woke up Because he had. He was working till one o'clock this morning woke up. Phoebe came in at about seven, which isn't bad for her. We don't stand alums in this house anymore.
Speaker 1:There's no, I don't either. Why have you ever had a real life alarm now?
Speaker 2:No, it's like they wake up and you're like, oh, I don't know what time it is that they're awake. Phoebe came in at seven. Mitch and I looked each other and was like, right, what's the priorities for the day? Because we didn't really get a catch-up yesterday. And then it was like, right, you've got meetings here, here and here I need to do the finances and then I need to do this for somebody else and so if you could work this out till this hour, then we'll tag and then I'll work out till that. That is what the day looked like, and literally so. This morning, before I came in here, I was lying on the floor doing puzzles and reading books with the girls and then walked straight out of the house, high-fived Mitch, he took over, he's taking the girls swimming and I'll do this and I'll do some business development calls for every single day for us, like we try to do a half day each. Do you be lying job?
Speaker 1:share really.
Speaker 2:Oh well, it's absolute job share. So normally when I because I've got quite a few events over the next kind of the last three weeks I've had loads of events and next week some at breakfast, so it's kind of like there's lots going on. But normally what we try to do is someone will do the morning, so they'll work the morning till about midday, and then you'll tag. Someone will have midday till Whenever you finish, and then they'll get the next morning and then you tag, feel like you've almost had a day, although you've had a sleep in between. That's what we try to achieve as best as we can. But, as with anything when you're scaling a business, if a client is like I want to learn about whatever coons jump on a call, mitch is like I'm like can I have that time? And he's like, yeah, cool, it's yours and we'll put it in, and we literally Sprint between the house.
Speaker 2:But it is a job share and it's hard to find the rhythm. And I think this is always going to be the challenge when you're doing a job share is finding the rhythm that brings out the optimum results in each person when you do that handover. How does that handover work? How does it look, and I think there's a lot of fear about doing a job share Like they're like why would you want to job share with people it's like well, actually, why wouldn't you? You get two brains for the price of one, with subtly different perspectives on life, and, as long as they work out their rhythm together and I think that's the most important thing, that the company doesn't go this is what it looks like the people who are doing the job share talk to each other and go right Actually me doing Monday, tuesday and a half day Wednesday and you doing the other half and whatever.
Speaker 2:That's not working for me. Could we swap and try this and ultimately, let's be honest, the company doesn't care because the price they pay is this and as long as the thing delivered who cares like gives some trust and faith. But I don't understand companies that are scared of job sharing. I don't what's hard about it. Yes, I'm trying to find someone to equal and opposite that person and guess that could be tricky. But if you advertised it as a part-time job share, I'd be amazed how many people out there would be. Like I'm on that as my kind of vibe, but it's not advertised enough. You barely see it.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I love job sharing. I mean I love the idea of job sharing. I think it's better than part-time because I feel there is that pressure when you're part-time on your days, non-working days that you should. Things are happening you know you're going to have to catch up on and I Air cover.
Speaker 2:I think that's a really important thing, like you were right, actually, because when you want parents who work part-time and they're meant to be three days, but what they end up doing is five in three, yeah, they're only paid for the three. By the way, just to be really clear on that, which again is an absolute gripe for me, it's like if you know someone, like if that person says look, I want to work five in three and you pay for them for those five in those long hours. That's their choice, that's their buy, that's what they want to do Absolutely fine. But for an employee to say I'm work for three days, they're going to give them the amount of work that would have been in five and expect them to do it for a three-day pay. I'm not okay with that. I'm not okay at all.
Speaker 2:But I think the job share process is actually better for a company in general, because it does mean that that role is being consistently covered. It also means, from a mental health perspective, of the other person sitting on the other side of this. They're not like I'm out of the office for half the week, what if something happens or something brings them and go by the way. This is going down, I need your opinion on.
Speaker 2:And you're like well, I'm not working, I'm currently in a swimming pool with my kids or doing whatever the hell you're doing when you're not at work. That puts a lot of mental strain on someone and that fear, and like you're constantly like picking up your phone, checking it. So actually, when you're not working, you're not present, the people you're meant to be present with during that time. So actually doing a job share means you get the consistency of delivery, means that that person's mental health is protected in terms of not feeling that pressure to do more than they can achieve in that period. I just think it's a calmer environment for everyone. Like if I had to advertise a job and I'd rather do a job share, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1:So, before we wrap up, do you want to give people a bit of an overview, as we're getting my way? Is that tool, that raccoons are what you do and who you help.
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course. So tool that raccoons is a company that we started three years ago and our mission is to help people optimise how they search for candidates. And the real driver behind this is when we talk a lot about unemployment rates. We talk a lot about it and we talk about a lot about people not being able to find work. Like you'll see it all over social media at the minute and in my mind, I think recruiters have forgotten how critical they are in the economy, like really forgotten. They get so abused by people being like you're just a recruiter, you're just that, but they are the connector between a company and a person finding a role or a role in the economy, a role or moving to their dream role.
Speaker 2:And we have set about we've talked about raccoons focusing on how we can help recruiters level up their knowledge on how to source. So we've got a whole element of training in the den, because there was no point just giving them tech. I want them to level up their knowledge and their skills to know how to hunt. And then we've developed a piece of technology that enables them to go anywhere on the internet to use Boolean to search through the CRM, their job or their social media, but not just through a buzzword, through what we call a candidate-centric hunt. So we mentioned earlier about inclusivity, like the way people describe themselves, the way they talk about themselves, isn't necessarily buzzword driven and I always joke that I have dyslexic English, right, I make typos, I make mistakes.
Speaker 2:So, again, giving recruiters all around the world access to technology that enables them to capture those candidate uniquenesses and use it to drive their search, to pull up candidates that would never have been found before and therefore, by finding that true talent pool, they're in a position to then go actually I've not seen you, but you'd be amazing at this and we then have a power to.
Speaker 2:If we can make that so efficient, that hunting process, that we can actually transform lives that much quicker, like we can see people out of unemployment that much quicker, we can see people in the dream roles, in the right roles, where it is part-time, full-time, job share, whatever it may be. But we as recruiters I suppose by that as a we I love that that we as humans get people back into work and into the roles they want quicker. At the minute we're not doing good enough work to actually ensure that inclusivity and that we're finding everyone that's relevant for the job, rather than just those who are shiny that are being pushed to the top of the filters, and that's what we're trying to solve.
Speaker 1:Brilliant. Do you know? What else I think could benefit from this, as a recruit myself, is the hiring managers, because often they are so specific about what they want and it's quite hard to get them to see the transferable skills, although not open to seeing it.
Speaker 2:So but this is the joy in a lot of the conversations. So like, yes, they being at the firm networking event it was with talent acquisitions, right, like talent acquisition heads and leads directors, etc. Like really big organizations, like it was absolutely amazing event to be part of and just listening to what they're talking about and they have exactly the same thing. They're just like hiring managers say this and I said that that's where, like the way we free to the technology and what it includes in it, is getting you guys to think differently, getting you guys to ask hiring managers different questions. Because, at the end of the day, yes, hiring managers are like I want ABC and D, right, that's what they know because they're in the zone. Right, they don't know they're not there to go. Okay, how does the count describe themselves? Right, they don't think like that. But with the way we teach people through our kind of raccoon training academy in the den, as we call it, right, the tech stack is the den, with all the tech and the training, it's amazing. But by getting a recruiter to sit back and think when they go and do intake calls or qualification calls, depending on whether you're agency or in house, is how you describe it by empowering them to think differently, empowers them to leave very different interrogations of that hiring manager and showing them the search string that you're about to run, demonstrating the fact that you said this word. But I think you should also include this, this, this, because this is why Are you comfortable with that yes or no? And actually, by having a very different range of questions you're asking means that actually the hiring manager might turn around and go actually, you haven't thought of this.
Speaker 2:Add this in right, you're getting them, but you have to lead. As a recruiter, you have a duty of care to lead that hiring manager to think a different way, to extract the information you need to empower a search to be more inclusive, to see true talent pools and then know how to push and pull that search to get exactly what you want. But that has to be a whole education. It has to be a whole mindset shift. We have a duty of care to be inclusive in our searching, not just oh, I'm stuck here. I mean I did a search. I actually did a live search yesterday with the job title marketing manager and are you doing it on LinkedIn? Recruiter for UK-based UK-based marketing manager in the UK currently job titled and I used their filter and it came back with 55,000 results and I was like, okay, that's good, that's a lot right, you'd obviously come and get it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're going to be busy going through that.
Speaker 2:yeah, we wouldn't go there, we wouldn't just stay at that filter. But then I did a search where I actually made a Boolean string of all those 40 job titles and I found 77,000 people.
Speaker 1:So the filters are broken.
Speaker 2:The filters are completely broken. I mean, I can say that about most profiles for different reasons. But then what I did is I taught the recruiters a technique called long-handed shorthand. Like it's really easy. I know we're completely digressing, but it's so important where you capture the skill and then the seniority is two separate elements. I found 100,000 people that were relevant that have the title marketing manager somewhere in their job title. Like it's unbelievable.
Speaker 2:But people don't realize. They're so conditioned, I guess, to go, okay, I put a filter in that's going to capture everyone, and then they wonder why their talent pool is only X, like there's no diversity in it. They're like, oh, that's what I'm finding. I'm like no, you need to step forward, you need to think more, you need to ask yourself questions and then the answers to these questions. You need to use them, not just know about it. Use it to empower a search to find people.
Speaker 2:Like when we're talking about people looking for jobs and moving jobs, I've got my profile Chief mum. I think I'm cool myself, right, I've actually got my profile. I wear it with pride. I am a mum and that is a full-time job that's open and there are so many things finding parents who are looking for work or looking for flexiwork, part-time work. There are words, the way they describe themselves, that we could use in a search that is outside of the filter land. Yeah, more of us could find more of these individuals who want to do this type of work. But again, this is why we've come into the market and we are fighting right. We're fighting against the world to get them to see it differently. But for me, it's such an important battle to be had and I'm not going to give up on it, because we all have a duty of care to make sure we are getting people into jobs quicker, and not just the top people getting everyone into work by searching properly. So that is what we're trying to do.
Speaker 1:Brilliant, it sounds fantastic, so yeah, so how can people find you, connect with you and then, more than a month, I'm on LinkedIn.
Speaker 2:I think I basically live on LinkedIn, so you'll find me as a happy pressed in Fipers. Obviously, you can also come by the website, so tooleduprecoonscom, and I'm sure there'll be a link somewhere when we post this podcast so you can actually find the spelling for that. As I said, dyslexic was a pretty stupid name. There's a lot of O's and a lot of C's in there. That was a bit like yeah, I'm looking down though.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there it is.
Speaker 2:So, honestly, just come and find me on LinkedIn, connect with me, ask questions, get inquisitive, ask me anything about Canada Discovery and I will be there.
Speaker 1:Brilliant, all right, well, lovely. Thank you so much, gabby, for joining us today.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me have a great day everyone.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to another episode of the Work it Like A Mom podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and subscribe, and don't forget to share the link with a friend. If you're on LinkedIn, please send me a connection request at Elizabeth Willett and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode. You can also follow my recruitment site Investing in Women on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram. Until next time, keep on chasing your big dreams.