What Women Are Giving Just to Stay Employed

In this special episode of Work It Like a Mum, we’re sharing the third session from our Give to Gain Summit, hosted in support of International Women’s Day. 

This honest and thought-provoking panel discussion explores the hidden emotional, professional and financial cost many women pay simply to stay in the workplace.

Hosted by Women’s Wellbeing Coach and author Gifty Enright, alongside four incredible women sharing honest lived experiences.  This powerful conversation explores flexibility, burnout, visibility, career progression, caregiving, menopause, remote working and the hidden realities many women are still navigating behind the scenes.

What We Cover:

• The invisible mental load women carry at work and at home
• Why flexibility can still come at a professional cost
• The hidden pressures women absorb to remain “high performing”
• How caregiving responsibilities reshape career decisions
• Why visibility and presenteeism still impact progression
• The emotional and financial cost of remote and flexible work
• Why women over 50 are still being overlooked in the workplace
• The importance of allies, sponsorship and supportive leadership

Key Takeaways:

• Women are still quietly carrying enormous unseen pressure
• Flexibility should not reduce career opportunities or progression
• Output should matter more than presenteeism
• Supportive leadership and workplace culture make a huge difference
• Women often lower their “ask” — not their ambition
• Many women stay in workplaces at a personal cost because they feel they have no alternative
• Organisations need to better recognise the realities women face across different life stages

Why Listen:

 If you’ve ever struggled to balance work and life, worried flexibility could impact your progression, or questioned how well workplaces truly support women, this conversation will resonate deeply. 

Show Links:

Connect with  Elizabeth Willetts on LinkedIn here

Connect with Gifty on LinkedIn here 

Visit Gifty’s website here 

Explore and download the full Women At Work Survey here

Boost your career with Investing in Women's Career Coaching! Get expert CV, interview, and LinkedIn guidance tailored for all career stages. Navigate transitions, discover strengths, and reach goals with our personalised approach. Book now for your dream job! Use 'workitlikeamum' for a 10% discount.

Transcript

Welcome And Show Premise

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willis, and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life. I'm a working mum with over 17 years of equipment experience, and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women Job Board and Community. In this show, I'm honoured to be chatting with remarkable women, redefining our working world across all areas of business. They'll share their secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success after children, their boundaries and balance, the challenges they faced, and how they've overcome them to find their own version of success. Shy away from the real talk? No way! Money, struggles, growth, loss, boundaries and balance. We cover it all. Think of this as coffee with your mates mixed with an inspiring TED talk, sprinkled with the career advice you wish you'd really had at school. So grab a cup of coffee or a glass of wine, make sure you're cozy, and get ready to get inspired and chase your boldest dreams or just survive Mondays. This is the Work It Like a Mum podcast. This episode is brought to you by Investing in Women. Investing in Women is a job board and recruitment agency helping you find your dream part-time or flexible job with the UK's most family-friendly and forward-thinking employers. Their site can help you find a professional and rewarding job that works for you. They're proud to partner with the UK's most family-friendly employers across a range of professional industries. Ready to find your perfect job? Search their website at investinginwomen.co.uk to find your next part-time or flexible job opportunity. Now back to the show.

Meet The Panel And Their Stories

SPEAKER_00 1:58

Right, we are live. We are live. Hello, hello, hello, everybody. Uh thank you for being here. And in this week leading up to International Women's Day, suddenly women's women are fashionable, and we are everywhere. And so hopefully everybody can see me. I can't see Caroline, you sort of disappeared off the of the stream. Yeah, we can't see your face. We can see your name and everything, but we can't see your face. But can you speak so we can hear you? I think maybe yeah. Okay, so so Caroline, if you can hear me, we can't see you and we can't hear you either. So um that would be that one. Right anyway, hi everybody. So women are fashionable now um in the workplace, everywhere now because it's international women's week. We're preceding international women's week. And today what I want to talk about really is uh women are leaving the workplace in their droves, and people are talking about it. Why is retention for women become an issue? Um, but I want to flip it a bit, it's not just about those leaving. What about those of us that are staying? So I want to put the spotlight on the people that are staying and the price they're paying for staying because there's a price being paid to stay. Uh there's negotiations going on, stress is being absorbed, things being managed. So it's more about are we paying too high a price and you know why does it have to be so hard for those of us that choose to stay? And so today I'm excited to have our panelists here. One of them is missing, hopefully she dials back in. Um so uh Katie and Natalie, I'm going to leave you to introduce yourselves. I'm going to start with you, Katie, please.

SPEAKER_04 4:09

Hi, yeah. Hello everyone. Um I'm Katie Brickle. Um, I'm an executive director um at Howden Insurance Brokers, um, which is basically client managing, operations, broking, all things insurance related. Um, in addition to my what I call my day job, um, I also um found uh co-founded the first ever employee resource group at Howden and now chair the Parents at Work Group, um, which um provides lots of lovely insights into this topic that we're doing today. And I'm also a mum um to a six-year-old uh daughter.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

Oh, well done. Well done for co-founding the ERG. Whoop whoop, very exciting. Naturally, tell us all about you.

SPEAKER_02 4:56

Yeah, so I'm um Natalie Simmons. Um, I have um basically a 20-year career in banking. Um, more importantly, I was in uh compliance for over 12 years. I'm currently looking for my next role at the moment and have been since uh the end of last March, unfortunately. Um it's quite a tough market at the moment, um, probably more so for women, I'd say. Um so I've also I've all always been actively passionate about um, I don't like to say women's issues because it's people's issues, isn't it, basically? Um, and I've always been involved in lots of different um women's networks at the different companies that I've worked at over the last you know 10 years or so. Um so it's I'm really passionate about this subject, especially about equity for women. Um, and I am a mother, so I have two boys um aged six and eight.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

Yay! All righty, sorry guys that's all I said. So thank you, Natalie. And 20 years in banking is not to be sniffed at, and I'm not surprised you've been looking for a new role since last year. The market is impossible, um, and it is just like you say, impossibly, whenever anything is tough, it's tougher for women anyway. So um we we're all hanging there in there tight with you. So, Caroline, you came in just at the right time. I decided not to hyperventilate whilst you weren't here because um I thought question two was going to go to you, but anyway, please do tell us about yourself.

SPEAKER_03 6:30

Um, hi, I'm Caroline, everybody. So basically, um I was working in uh private equity in 2017 uh and I got ill. Um, I was doing a global role, doing a lot of travel. Um, I hadn't yet been diagnosed. My company was also trying to get rid of me on health grounds, although I'd have no time off for sick. Um, and I eventually left in January 2017, got diagnosed in the May with ME. Um, I've also got fibromyalgia, which I've had for 20 years, and then suddenly I was out of work, had no income coming in, uh, absolutely exhausted, couldn't travel to work. Um, but through that I was applying for lots of roles saying, Look, I need to work remotely, I need to conserve my energy for work, and no one would employ me. So I actually thought, right, what am I going to do? And I sort of sat back and thought, right, I need to create my own brand, try and start a business working remotely from home, which in those days is very difficult. And that's what I did. And I worked on myself and created my business, which is called Evolved Business Consultancy, and thought, right, what have I been doing the last 20 years? Which kind of led to strategy, operations, and business development. Um, and then I started sort of researching and finding online sites, creating my profile and pitching for work, also having to learn how to set up a self-employed and my tip find a great accountant as well, that always helps. Um, and then eventually I landed my first client, and it's kind of been a sort of a roller coaster since then, having to teach myself lots of new applications and learn um and go out and pitch for work. Um, and I've managed to sustain an income for the last nine years, um, dealing with an invisible disability, but is also a fluctuating condition, uh, whilst trying to maintain work. So it's been a very challenging nine years. But uh, I'm still here to tell the tale.

The Hidden Mental Load At Work

SPEAKER_00 8:20

Yes, yes, and well done you. Well done you, because you know, other people would have thrown in the towel, and being self-employed and sustaining an income over nine years is no mean feat. So, you know, you should be very proud of yourself and doing that in the face of uh a disability as well. So I have got an amazing panel. Um, I I can't believe I get to speak to all these incredible women all the time. Jesus, it's just just I I love it, I love it, I love it. So let's dive right in. Let's dive right in. So my first question is for you, Natalie. I'm not picking on you, you just look like somebody who's ready for a first question. So I want to talk about the mental load, right? So, what is something you did or do even still to stay employed that your employer never saw will never see?

SPEAKER_02 9:09

Yeah. Um, so when I was first given this question, I really had to think because there's a lot of things that you do that you don't compute, you just like you just do them. So I had to really kind of like sit down and think. And I think obviously in the beginning, when I um when I was pregnant, and then when I was on maternity leave, um I wanted to have flexibility, so I asked to work um four days a week, and that was declined. Um basically, I think at the time in 2018, it was it wasn't seen as something that women could really ask for, um, and it was declined straight away. And it thing is, I was on maternity leave at the time, so I was I was quite vulnerable to hearing that, and I to be honest, I just took it as gospel. That's fine, I'll just go along with it. Um, fast forward to um, so I had my my second son at the end of 2019, um, and obviously he's a lockdown baby, and I literally didn't get to do anything, lit nothing at all with him. So I wanted to get some of that time back, so I was allowed to um have uh four four working days a week um and then one day off basically. Um so yeah, I think generally um after coming back from maternity leave, I think you do sort of downplay your role as a mother and you kind of slot things in. Um, you know, you it's kind of an oxymoron. You don't want to be seen as a mother at work, you want to be seen as a professional that's you know firing more guns and getting work done. So I did feel like I was sort of downplaying it quite a lot and absorbing the stress and trying to kind of keep family concerns um on the back burner when you know when they are really affecting you. Um I kind of used to try and keep lunch time to a minimum or not have any lunch, work extra hours if I could obviously try and sort of slot things in and um also kind of also on the other side of it having kind of perimonopausal symptoms from sort of 2022 onwards. Um I I feel like I've um always kind of checking my emails, rechecking what I was doing, um, you know, making sure that um calendar requests have been put in and double checking those. So I was kind of making sure that I didn't do anything wrong. I didn't want to be seen as doing anything wrong. So um, yeah, and then obviously, you know, I think on the back of that you do kind of build alliances with people at work. So in the background, you are seeking out those fellow employees that are also parents as well, because you want that network, especially if your immediate managers aren't parents. Um I think just even if you're not parents, I think having flexibility in the workplace is just paramount. And unfortunately, some of the um people that are coming up in government at the moment are publicising everyone back to work, you know, back in the building. Um, and I think if if a if a job can be flexible, I'm not saying that it should be for everybody, you know, obviously if you work in a shop or something, that's not possible, but if you can be, then I think flexibility needs to be um, you know talked about and obviously progressed.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

So uh what's interesting, you know, in terms of what you were saying, uh things that you were doing that weren't obvious to your employer, for example, you were checking and double checking, yeah, right? The emails and I mean the the sort of energy it would have taken to actually have to be able to do that because that's women we're petrified, you know, of making a mistake or anything like that. And then when you have kids, you don't want anybody to think that you've lost it. So there you are, double checking everything to make sure everything is just said. So I'm going to come to you, Caroline. I'm going to come to you, Caroline. So I want to talk about flexibility. Can you share a moment where flexibility helped you stay in work? And what did it cost you?

SPEAKER_03 14:06

Well, um, yeah, so obviously the moment I share about flexibility was the fact that I chose to create a career that was remote in um 2017 that wasn't there at that point for lots of people, and and also for people with invisible disabilities or any disabilities who've been denied to be in the workplace because they can't physically come into the office. Um, it cost me a lot. I mean, I you know, I miss being in an office, being able to be around team members, um, to talk to people. There's a lot of isolation, um, career progression. I lost a whole career. Um, and we don't even talk about income when my income, you know, at the beginning uh literally dropped to a quarter of what I was earning. Um, and things like benefits, pensions, and healthcare, which now from that point had to be self-funded. So an isolation, as I say, isolation, a corporate career, and finance, I would say, are the main things that it's cost me.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:03

There are some benefits as well. There are benefits as well.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

There are there are benefits, but I suppose you know, people just think they just see flexibility as a benefit and don't understand the cost, do you know? And and suddenly, especially for you going from employed to self-employed, suddenly no peers and everything is down to you. You don't have an IT department. Do you know there's nobody to go and chew the fat with over a coffee break or anything like that? And um, and the hit to your self-esteem.

unknown 15:37

Totally.

SPEAKER_03 15:37

Did you have any of that? I did, I did. And also, you know, I think also when you're actually going through an illness as well, it's a lot, it's a lot to deal with. Um, you know, it's it took it, it took me a lot of strength, you know. I look back on it now, and actually I don't recognise it myself, but the strength to push myself through this because I needed an income. I mean, unfortunately, money is the driving force for all of us. We have a mortgage to pay. Um, but it's it's it is, it's very, very challenging. But it's only at the beginning, if I look back on it, you know, I love working remotely. I would say now nine years on, I realize the cost that it's had, and it is isolating. So I try and make you know an effort to network and bring back some of the things that that I miss. Um, yeah, those are the challenges really for me.

When Caring Changes Your Career Maths

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Okay, alrighty. So I'm I'm I'm gonna come to you, Katie, and thanks for being so patient. So so when did you first realize your career path had changed because of your caring responsibilities?

SPEAKER_04 16:39

I think it was a moment really when I hesitated to say yes to something that I probably would have previously just jumped in without thinking about. Um and I think it's important to like for me, my ambition didn't reduce because I became a mum, but the mental load that Natalie's talked about and the logistics of everything that was in my life multiplied and changed, and my priorities became different. And I think I'm very lucky. Uh having a child has definitely not derailed my career. I've been at Harden for 20 years, and the company has been incredibly supportive. So, hopefully, what I'm going to bring to this conversation is what organizations can do positively to support women that have had career breaks or that are have caring responsibilities. Um, but just to sort of swing back to the to the question, you know, before children, I would stay, I would get in very early, I would stay very late, I would travel without thinking, um, I would say yes to any kind of opportunity that would have given me that exposure to senior leadership. Um, and I think now I do say yes, I still try and jump in, but there's always conditions attached to that. Is that going to work with my home life balance? Is it going to affect my husband and my and my child? Is it going to cost my family for me to say yes to that opportunity? Um, I have to optimize every decision I make with sustainability for my life. It isn't just a straightforward yes and then worry about it later. I can't do that anymore. Um, and I think every decision I now make in my career comes with that sort of secondary, I want to say spreadsheet because I'm all about spreadsheets, but um secondary spreadsheet in my brain that is I have to analyze it. And I'm an incredibly analytical person anyway. I was before I had my daughter, but that analytical um uh approach to things is now very forefront in every decision that I make. And it's very much about me showing my boss and my company that just because I have increased responsibilities with this caring responsibility, it doesn't reduce my capability. If anything, I would say that it's added to my skill set. I I'm much better at efficiency than I ever was before because I have to be. Um, I think I'm much better at making sharper decisions because in the moment, as a mum and and as a as a homemaker, I have to make quick thinking decisions all the time. Um, I'm just talking about my daughter, she's off sick at the moment, and you know, you hear she's unfortunately got a stomach bug, and you hear that sound, and you, you know, you run for the bedroom. Whereas, you know, so your reflexes um in in in a um catastrophe situation are much are much stronger. And I think as well, I'm much better at empathy and delegation because I have to be. I I'm empathetic because I'm a mum, so I've got that whole new level of empathy for another human being, and I've had to learn to delegate. So, yes, the the decisions are different to when I had before I had children, but I I'm very keen for other women to show that it doesn't become a negative part of you, that you can actually turn that caring responsibility into a strength. And if you've got company to help elevate that, then then it really can position you in a positive way.

Why Just Showing Up Is Hard

SPEAKER_00 20:19

Yeah, absolutely. I and I mean there are companies that uh do that. Uh, and I mean, I I used to work in IT, and I remember one time I had to go on a business trip, and my son was only one year old, I'd moved to a new country, had a new nanny. My husband was not working in that country, he was in England, uh, and we were in Ireland and he was commuting, so I didn't want to leave a new nanny at home alone with my son. So I took them both with me on their business trip, as you do, right? Right? Think about the overhead of paying for the flight for the baby and the nanny. Of course, the company was paying for my flight, but when my boss realized I was doing that, they stepped in to um help me financially. But again, that is the overhead that women have to think about in terms of if you decide that your career is not going to change because you've got a baby, then suddenly there's a whole load of other things that come into the equation. So, thanks for that. So, Natalie, I'm going to come back to you. Um, what do organizations consistently misunderstand about the effort it takes for some women just to just show up? Do you know just show up in the morning?

SPEAKER_02 21:38

Yeah, I think um I think um mothers are predominantly the caregiver. Um and and still on average um men are sort of always in senior leadership roles, so the mental load is often unseen, um, and and just not a factor in what it what it really takes to show up um and be ready for work. So yeah, I think culturally we we've still got a long way to go before kind of the balance of care and responsibilities. I'm not saying you know, my husband's really good, so you know, I'm not saying it's for everybody, you know, it's the situation for everybody, but until that kind of shifts and it's kind of a bit more equal. Um, you know, I think the mental load of what women have to do to kind of show up will always be unseen because men haven't really factored that in. And obviously, because mostly men are in senior leadership roles, they can't obviously see what's really going on for a woman to show up to work, what it takes.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Okay, okay. I I'm gonna come back to you, Katie. What what would you like to add anything to that in terms of what it takes for us to just. Show up in the morning at nine o'clock or whatever it is they want us to show up. Katie, I'm not sure if you can hear me.

SPEAKER_04 23:03

I can. Can you hear me?

SPEAKER_00 23:07

Yes. It is breaking up. It is breaking up. So let me go to Caroline. Let me go to Caroline. I'll come back to you. So Caroline, uh, would you like to add anything to that?

SPEAKER_03 23:17

Yeah, I think, you know, as well as you know, there's care, you know, there's not only obviously um mothers, there's obviously older women, and that's kind of where I come in because I'm unfortunately in that bracket. Um, but there's also a lot of women with caring responsibilities for elderly parents, um, women going through the menopause. We've talked about invisibility, invisible disabilities and unhealth. Um, a lot of companies, you know, D E and I is not just a word for PR, they really need to demonstrate um that they understand that they support this and showcase this in the organizations and support women. Um, yeah, you know, I've done a lot, you know, and I've seen a lot working with organizations where for me it just seems a PR exercise, but I haven't actually, I'm not really seeing it demonstrated in organizations.

Flexibility Stigma And Lost Opportunity

SPEAKER_00 24:01

Yeah, absolutely. It's just they talk and it never ends up in policy. So, Katie, uh, can you hear us clearly now? I can hear you. I'm hoping you can hear me. Yes, yes, I can hear you. So, so for the women that stay, why do a lot of them feel pushed to the margins?

SPEAKER_04 24:20

I think it's an interesting one because I think a lot of women feel like they're retained in the business, but they're not being sponsored in their career progression or their roles going forward, often seen as stable but not stretched. And I think a lot of women as well, they self-limit to avoid being seen as difficult. Um, sometimes that being a parent needing to leave to pick your child up, or um to, you know, if you if you have to work from home because your child is ill, I think some people feel that that guilt, and it's not just the mum guilt, it's the guilt for the work side as well, that you're seen as difficult. And I think a lot of the time big projects and big opportunities they go to people that sometimes are more visibly available, and I think that's wrong. Um, and I think the big overarching worry that I have for women that experience this is that retention at a at a business without progression is just a is just another way to slow exit someone from a business. And I think that's never a good place for a company to sponsor women in any format, mothers, caring responsibilities, illness, any kind of life situation.

SPEAKER_00 25:41

Yeah.

unknown 25:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

So the the point a point you made there about you know uh retention without the opportunity is just a slow exit. So I want to come to you, Natalie, um, to talk about retention because sometimes why why does flexibility kind of feel like it reduces opportunity?

SPEAKER_02 26:02

Um I think as we've already sort of mentioned, I think until the culture is seen differently about working flexibly, um, it will always be seen as kind of that person who's doing less work. So I think culturally, whilst um I know that we have the flexible working bill in place now and that's gone under law. Um, so the the person a person has got the right, you know, not just a mother, anybody has got the right to on the first day of starting a enroll to say, I want to work flexibly, whatever that shape will be. Um, I think whilst we have whilst that's great, you know, we we need that to be in law for things to change, culturally, we're still way behind. And until the culture catches up with the law, um, working flexibly means as Katie has alluded to, if you're not there, presenteism, if you're not seen, then obviously who's Nestle? Sorry, what does she do? So, you know, if you're not there, then then obviously um you're seen as let as doing less work or or less visible.

SPEAKER_00 27:07

Well, so interestingly, I um uh I it wasn't even a post I wrote myself. Somebody wrote the post and I reposted it about something about the proximity to the manager's desk actually affects your promotional task. And it just right, it went crazy on LinkedIn. But I want to come to you, Caroline, on this flexibility thing, how sometimes it stunts uh career progression. Would you like to speak to that?

SPEAKER_03 27:33

Yeah, I think it does. I mean, I also think that um, yeah, I mean, flex it does actually stunt um career progression, but I think also there's a lot on the age discrimination side. Um, and I think what it is is a lot of women stay in jobs, particularly when you're getting over 50. You know, it's hard. You are written off. There was a piece that came out last week in one of the HR magazines that, you know, people aren't um recruitment agencies aren't recruiting, you know, for women over 50 plus or 55, I think it was. Um, so women are wanting to stay employed in circumstances that don't necessarily work for them because they need to obviously sustain an income and they've got to support their family or parents. So it's very challenging. It's very challenging. So they, you know, they take, they give up that flexibility sometimes because they need they need the job.

What Leaders Can Change Tomorrow

SPEAKER_00 29:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so um we we got five minutes left here before I can uh go to QA. So let's let's get into what can be done because we're not here to complain, we know what the issue is. What can be done? So, what is one change leaders can make tomorrow, or maybe when we get off this call, that will materially improve women's ability to stay and grow at work. And I will start with you, Katie. Can you hear me, Katie?

SPEAKER_04 30:01

Yeah, I mean there's there's lots that companies can I can. Oh, I don't know what's going on with my wi-fi, I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_00 30:07

We can hear you now, we can hear you now. Yes, we can.

SPEAKER_04 30:12

Okay, um I might turn my camera off in the hope that it this my voice comes across. So sorry that you're gonna disappear my face for a second. Um so one, I think one there's there's several things that I think companies can do, and I'm very um this is a lot of the work that I do in the parents at work space um for my network, but I think um progression should be um structured, not proximity-based. Um, and there should be um clear sponsorship pathways um for women in any circumstance. This is not just based on parents or people that work from home. The biggest one for me is measuring output, not presence. It's if somebody needs to work flexibly or somebody needs to work, and that's whether that's because of the times that they work or because of the location that they work or the number of days that they work, it shouldn't be about that. It should be measured on their on your output, not your presence. And I think as well that there is a tendency sometimes for the opportunities to default to the same visible person people. So if a company is auditing who gets the stretch assignments in their company, who gets those opportunities, then that would be a really clear uh visibility of are we giving everybody an equal opportunity? Because it's really random. And and you know, out of sight, out of mind sometimes is something that plays, but we need to start breaking down those biases. So if we're auditing our behaviours as leaders, as managers, yeah, then that would give a better spread of those opportunities going to people that aren't necessarily standing around the copier talking to their boss, and I think that's a really important um thing that companies can take into their into their organizational uh practices.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

Yeah, that's a very good point. Uh I must say, it never even occurred to me to audit those getting the stretch opportunities now. That would literally put everything out there in lights for everyone to see. So, right, so Natalie, I want to come with you, uh, come to you with the same question. What can we do when we get off this call? What can organizations do?

SPEAKER_02 32:20

Um, I remember when I worked at a global company, I same as Katie, I was heavily involved in the different parent networks and the women's networks. And one thing that um I noticed that did really help was we would so whilst it was a woman's network, we did have one male ally and they were fully board. So if there was, you know, if if there was any particular project that we were working on and we felt that it would it needed to be looked at more in depth, and we wanted that male ally to be on board, we would invite them to a meeting and we would discuss it so that they would be um on par with it and and obviously invited into that subject so they would be you know part of the decision making. So I think having a male ally um as part of a woman's network um is you know really needs to be um at the heart of it, I think, to get that value.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

Yeah, and I absolutely agree because there was some stunning stats that I can't remember off the top of my head now. But basically, when it's just us women talking, we move the needle, uh, something like that. But if we if if the man comes and says the same thing that the woman is saying suddenly, it shifts to the 90s. So uh that is an enlightened move, uh having a male ally and um helping, allowing them to fight our cause, as it were. So I want to come to you, Caroline, uh, with the same question, please. What can we do? We know what the issue is, what can we do?

SPEAKER_03 33:51

Well, I think companies need to recognise that uh it's not a one-size-fits-all. There's lots of women in lots of different groups, stages of their life. Um, they need to look at support groups for these different stages, they need to change the working life to um to suit all these groups, um, and recognize that it's not just about showing up and also realize the biggest thing women are working longer. It's going to be you know a long time till we take our pensions. Utilize women over 50 to keep them employed, create great roles for them, and utilize their skills and experience. Um, those are for me the key things, you know, recognizing we've got lots of different groups, and it isn't just a one-size-fits-all.

Q And A What Women Stop Asking

SPEAKER_00 34:29

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I mean, the age thing, I'm with you there, Caroline. Do you know a woman of a certain age? I I mean, we are supposed to be invisible, we have all that experience, all that knowledge. What's that nonsense about? Um, all right, so I I am going to um open uh the floor now for questions. If anybody's got any questions, please type it in the chat, um, and we will do our best to get around as many uh questions as possible. Now, what I want to ask you, ladies, what do women stop asking for once they become mothers or carers, or even perhaps, dare I say, hit the over 50 mark? What do they stop asking for? And I'm going to start with you, Caroline, this time.

SPEAKER_03 35:22

I think help. I think people we we're very I think women are very nervous of showing a weakness and saying that we need help when we need it. Um, and recon, you know, and I think companies should recognize it's not a weakness because women, let's face it, have much more demands on them than men, um, you know, to be to be everything. So I think it is asking for help, uh, but not but scared to do that because what it might, you know, how it might impact our career.

SPEAKER_00 35:50

And that's true. I mean, I I was petrified to ask for help when I had kids because I felt it showed weakness and I wanted to go toe-to-toe with the men. So, Katie, what what would you add to that in terms of what women stop asking for the moment they become carers?

SPEAKER_04 36:05

I think it's really like think women don't lower their ambitions, right? They lower their ask. So I think they ask for less. They ask for less uh travel heavy projects, they'll ask for less pay rises. I think it's not even that linked to mothers and carers. I think women generally, as a species, are less inclined to demand those pay rises aligned to their impact. I think they're less likely to put their hands up. They're the more of a breed that sit there and work hard and with their head down and hope that they're going to get noticed for that. And this is an over-generalization. I know it's not the case for everybody, and it's not the opposite for men, but I think that is a general thing, and I think that's one of the things, but it doesn't mean that our ambition is any less just because we're not asking for it. So I think, yeah, and I think the confidence dip when you become a a carer or a mother that does affect your confidence and brings all of that even further down in in in frequency.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

Yeah, yeah. Okay, so uh for those listening, if you've got any questions, please type it in the chat and we'll try to get around as many of them as possible. So I will ask you the same question, Natalie. What do we stop asking for the moment we become carers?

SPEAKER_02 37:23

Um it's kind of weird because obviously I asked for flexibility um to do four days a week um with my first son, and then it was declined, and then I left it. And then obviously, when I was allowed to do it for uh my second son, I then wanted to go back to full-time. So I want I was quite scared to keep asking for it for asking for that flexibility. It was like it shouldn't be like um you can only ask once and then you're done. I wanted to then return back to full-time because obviously the cost of living um I found um working four days a week was stretching me quite a bit. Um, and when I asked, um I was then said, Well, you need to make up your mind, is what she said to me. So, well, you know, I need to be able to pivot. So I think I think if you've asked for flexibility once, I think I personally I was scared to then ask to change it back again.

What High Performers Quietly Tolerate

SPEAKER_00 38:23

Yeah, yeah. And you know, thank God now the flexibility thing has been written into legislation. But that said, you know, we all know it's illegal to discriminate against people, but it happens. So the fact that it's in um legislation doesn't necessarily mean there's not gonna happen. What stops it from happening is the culture of the organizations that people work in, where is socially and morally deemed unacceptable and frowned on, then people actually stop doing um that nonsense. So I want to come to you, Katie, in terms of what high-performing women quietly tolerate because the culture doesn't allow it and they just don't want to be marginalized, whatever. What do we quietly tolerate in the workplace?

SPEAKER_04 39:17

Um, I think one of the ones I get a lot is because I my company doesn't have a specific mandated RTO that I'm very lucky to have flexibility, and I don't think luck is part of it at all. So I think we tolerate being called lucky if we have flexibility or an understanding company. That's not luck, that's a culture issue. Um, I think we tolerate um carrying the culture work unpaid. So I don't get paid to be the chair of a parents at work group, I do it on the side of my desk and I do it as an I call it an extracurricular. Um and I it's like I have three jobs. I have my day job that I get paid for, and I'm performance assessed on. I am a mum and uh you know a homemaker, and and I do the the culture work, so I think I tolerate all that extra stuff, but I only get paid for one of those jobs, and I think a lot of people sit in that space, and it's tough to tolerate sometimes. I'm a patient and passionate person, but sometimes it's it it can be too much.

SPEAKER_00 40:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, Caroline, I want to come to you on this thing high-functioning women. What do we tolerate that we should?

SPEAKER_03 40:38

I think stress, I think it shouldn't have to be, but I think we're all still, you know, we women have a lot of stress because of what we've talked about, and sometimes we're frightened of speaking up, admitting that it's not a weakness, but that but we need help, so we'll keep going, keep going, and keep going. And that's really what happened to me. You know, I was in a very sort of high-powered role, private equity, traveling globally. Um, and that's actually what made me ill in the end. Um, and then you know, then I had a company that was trying to maneuver me out for no reason at all and couldn't. Um, and yeah, I was frightened of speaking up saying, I need some help, I need some support. Um, you know, I hid a lot, I didn't take any time off work, but it was getting more and more difficult. Um, so it I think we hide things, I think we hide a lot because we don't think the support is there, or we think we're gonna lose our jobs because of it.

Handling Unsupportive Senior Women

SPEAKER_00 41:31

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And for those listening, if you have any questions, please try them in the chat and we'll try to get around to as many of them as possible. So, I mean, this talking about this toleration. I actually want to go back to the first question. Um, that uh I think I put that question to Natalie in terms of what are we doing that is not visible to our employer? Because most women, especially those with kids, by the time you turn up in the morning, you would have done a full day's work, right? Um before you and it's not visible to them. Uh, when I this morning, when I got up, before I could go downstairs, my daughter was there, like it's book day today, which I almost forgot, but anyway. Um, and then National Book Day, and she had her costume ready and all this, and suddenly I had to go and sort out a costume, make sure it was ready and all that, even before I'd come downstairs and sort out the tights and goodness knows what else to go with the outfit. And I always say my husband is one of the good ones, but he was completely oblivious to this. By the time he came downstairs, the whole wardrobe had been sorted, you know. Um, and so uh in terms of um where we are and what's happening, let's have a look at uh tolerance levels. And I think, oh, hang on, I think Katie is saying their comments. Am I not seeing comments? Let me oh god, okay.

SPEAKER_01 43:00

Do you want me to read them or do you you already?

SPEAKER_00 43:02

Please, don't because you weren't saying anything I thought. Please tell me. Oh no, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 43:08

Um I was I was like, so we've got a a dead phone. Sorry if I pronounced that um wrong, but what advice? And I think I heard this because um it was you, Natalie, that said about your past and and it was a female. And actually, I think often people are surprised, aren't they, that women can be as equally unsupportive of other women as men. Um so what advice would you give when it's other senior women creating the unsupporting supportive environment? I don't know if Emma, I don't know if Gifty, you've got I know you go into organizations and work with them.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what so if if it's other senior, you need to look for an ally. So this goes to a point that Natalie made before. You need to look for an ally. So look for a senior ally, yeah, because they will tell you, because the senior ally, if it's a woman, they would have navigated other women. I promise you, that's not just the one queen bee, they would have navigated other women, and I also always tell women go to men, they have a different way of thinking to us women, actually, of navigating these things, and sometimes it's good to leverage their psychology to see how they're seeing things and and to be able to uh navigate like that. But um, any of you want to add anything to that?

SPEAKER_04 44:25

It's a tough situation to be in if you if you find yourself in that environment. Um, I think I would echo what you said, Gifty, which is to find another person that can support you or sponsor you or mentor you or coach you within your organization or in your industry um to help navigate that situation. And in extreme circumstances, I would suggest almost not outing them, but having conversation with that person. It's never it's not always going to be something you're gonna resolve, and it may just be the wrong environment for you if if if it if it if it's that bad that you you just don't want to be around that person, and that's something you have to make as a life decision. But it it is tough, and I and I've I've been there, and often there's an underlying reason why that person might be like that. You know, they've been through probably hell themselves as a woman to get to their position, and it and they sort of you learn from how you've experienced, and unfortunately, that's that's where some women find themselves. Um, so yeah, it's a bit of a tough one, but I I think I would just echo what you said, Jesse. But surround yourself by other people that do support you, yeah, and they will show you, you know, other senior women would.

Audience Questions And Practical Support

SPEAKER_00 45:38

I mean, in my case, I I felt completely muzzled. I couldn't even speak because this manager literally came and you know, headhunted me from another uh um department to come and work for her because she was a black woman and wanted to support. Right? It doesn't get any more. And I got there and it was a completely different story. And she told everybody about the special relationship. Now, how do you then, when the special relationship is making your life a misery, who's going to believe you? Do you know? And so it's like having allies and other people. And eventually I found out that you know, basically she she was a bit of uh, you know, a piece of work. It wasn't just me, but and that also helps you process it when you know how other people see the person is not just you. Uh, now that I found the questions, let me go to one. All right. Uh okay, so uh what would you say to women who feel like they're constantly stretching themselves to stay in the workforce? So, Caroline.

SPEAKER_03 46:48

Um Yeah, I mean, you have options. I mean, look, it's challenging, isn't it? You can't you don't want to leave a job necessary to maybe have what I call I have a portfolio career. I mean, I always think now, well, now I look back, I think actually it's a risk putting all your eggs in one basket, working for one employer, you could get made redundant, you could lose your job. You know, having a portfolio career, which means I can work for lots of different people and I can control. But okay, I had I had a little bit of money when I left my job due to the circumstances, so I could take a little bit of time off and I was ill at the time, you know, and then find my niche. Um, but I think you do have options and maybe start a side hustle, start planning and thinking about creating a career outside of the company that you're working for. I know time is challenging. Um, but to maybe start off, you know, you could do pitching. There's lots of online sites that I went to, freelance sites, you can pitch for projects and works and maybe kind of build something up on that. There's you know, fantastic Facebook groups now that you can go on, you can get advice. So there are lots of options. You know, I just wouldn't want women to think that being employed uh and that's the only career that you can have because it isn't. And if it's not working for you, it's about looking at other options and you know, and talking to other women who can maybe give you advice. Um, you know, I set up a consultancy to help women initially, um, to which I had on Facebook and was going really well. Unfortunately, my health took another nosedime and I couldn't continue, but that's what I'm passionate about trying to help women, you know, using my experience and saying there are options out there.

SPEAKER_01 48:27

Um so we've got a panel actually this afternoon about entrepreneurship. So um I've got some brilliant female entrepreneurs coming on that. It's half past one. If you want to register, the details are on our website. But um, yes. Um I'll be there, Elizabeth. Brilliant. I'm very passionate as well about female entrepreneurs and having more women running their own business just to make sure you come along to that panel. But yeah, thank you. Sorry, I'll I'll mute again now.

SPEAKER_00 48:51

Right. Last last question now, in the interest of time, and guys, I'm really sorry I wasn't seeing your questions beforehand. Um, Amelia says, was there ever a point where you seriously considered leaving work altogether? Um, I yes, and I did actually leave because of this woman I was talking about, but anyway, um, and I think Caroline, you say you did the same, right? For then you went for the entrepreneurship um in instead. And then we there's another one. Um, something about was there a moment where a manager, colleague, or employer made things easier for you? Natalie, I'm I'm looking at you. Have you got an example of this?

SPEAKER_02 49:32

Um as I kind of said um with the first question that you asked me, I think have those trusted employees, those um people that you will rely on, because obviously I think sometimes when you work for a company, you can't think that everybody's going to be your friend. They are just your colleagues. So I think seeking out those um trusted people that you can speak to. And obviously, if things get really bad, then obviously you you might need to speak to human resources, but I think just seeking out those people that you can that you feel like you can trust and and and you know talk about those situations that have happened.

SPEAKER_00 50:07

I and and Katie, would you like to add was there specific incident where a manager made things easier for you? A colleague helped here the path.

SPEAKER_04 50:15

Yes. Um, I mean for me, it was I remember when I came back from maternity leave and I was doing a condensed week, which actually I wouldn't recommend because it's quite hard to do a full week in a condensed amount of time, but I was literally writing down all my hours that I was doing, and I was like trying to prove that I was doing the same work as I was doing when I was doing the full time in five days. And I remember a manager saying to me, I'm I'm not interested in the hours you're working. I'm actually just interested in your output and that you're okay. And I think it was that it wasn't necessarily the advice for that specific thing that I was doing, which was incredibly important at the time, but it was the advice of to give yourself a break. And and I've had coaching recently, actually, rather for business coaching, which was amazing, I'd highly recommend it for anybody. Um, and it was the this exactly the same thing that came out of that coaching was to give yourself a break, and you're not expected to be on it a hundred percent of the time working at a hundred percent pace. It is not possible for anybody to do that, and you will burn out if you do. So if you have those moments in your career or in your day where everything feels a bit overwhelming, or you have too many things, or you have a too much of a mental load, it's just to remember that you're human and to give yourself a break. And I think that advice from my managers since then has always just had managed to just reset me and put me back on a level playing field. And I think it's really valuable advice.

Final Thoughts And How To Support

SPEAKER_00 51:41

Great stuff. All right, ladies. I mean, as usual, when I do these things, it's like you ask the first question and you look, and the time is up. Um, do you know? But what do they say? Time flies when you're having fun. And so thank you ever so much for joining us. Uh, my amazing panel, Katie, Natalie, and Caroline, for bringing your experience and your expertise, you know, bags of questions that I didn't see. Um, sorry about that again. Um, and hopefully, you know, you get to join Elizabeth on the later sessions as well. But thank you everyone. This has been a very, very interesting conversation. We need to keep having it and we need to keep the workplaces' feet to the fire to treat women the way we deserve. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 52:34

Thank you for listening to another episode of the Work It Like a Mum podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review, and subscribe. And don't forget to share the link with a friend. If you're on LinkedIn, please send me a connection request at Elizabeth Willett and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode. You can also follow my recruitment site, Investing in Women, on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. Until next time, keep on chasing your biggest dreams.