Vanishing Fathers Series, When Stepdads Step Up | NFL Player Justin Pugh's Story Ep 94

Losing a parent at a young age will undoubtedly impact a child, but the presence of a nurturing stepfather can help fill the void left by such a significant loss. Justin Pugh’s story is a testament to this: After losing his father at 13, it was his stepfather who became the father figure he needed, providing guidance, support and stability during this crucial period of development.
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In this episode, Justin talks about the loss of his father, his special bond with his family, and the role his stepfather has played in his life. He also shares how his stepfather helped steer his NFL career for the New York Giants, and his secret to reaching his goals.
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Influenced not only by his stepfather but also by his older brothers and father-in-law, Justin has navigated the challenges of his NFL career and personal life with a foundation built on their lessons of hard work and resilience.
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Tune in to hear how he’s carrying these values into his own fatherhood journey!
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Connect with Justin Pugh on Instagram!

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This episode was post produced by Podcast Boutique https://podcastboutique.com/

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

All right, peter, so you know. I didn't even ask you what are the names of your parents and how long were they in this. I know that your dad is still actively in this cult, but, um, and your mom is not. But how long were they both in it together and when did your mom leave?

Speaker 2: 0:21

Yeah, um, and it's great to be honest with you today, jamie. Um, my parents names are Cal and Kathleen. They joined uh when I was two in uh, 1974. And I think we're guess my mom, all the siblings, of course, have been emancipated. We're all out, you know, thriving, and all eight, all nine of us, right, eight siblings, five sisters, three brothers, um, and my mom gosh. I think it's probably been. I should know this precisely, but it's probably been 15 years since, since she came. In fact, uh, my oldest son is 16 and I remember her being with him when he was a newborn. So you call it 15 or 16 years.

Speaker 1: 1:12

Wow, and was there something that specifically happened that made her kind of open her eyes to oh my gosh, this, this, this isn't something that I want to be a part of anymore.

Speaker 2: 1:23

Yeah, you know, I think there are two things that work. I mean, you know, uh, you know this was sort of sort of a radical, a radical agenda the cult had sort of calcified into. I think it covered, you know, just a very caustic, abusive um environment of them against the world. Uh, as these things go, um, so the conditions just kept getting worse and worse and worse. Um, I'm I'm certain that contributed to um, you know, folks leaving, including my mom.

Speaker 2: 1:51

So we were adult, you know her children were adult children who had entered, um, you know, life after death and um, you know we had contact with her and I think that she, you know she frankly saw that, you know, she really needed to be with her family and that that was a wonderful um, I think, influence as well. In fact, my sisters give them all the credit. Um, really, um did the whole thing. Uh went and picked her up, um gave her a soft landing, of course, uh back, um, uh back in their arms and our arms and um, she got to be reunited with her, her mother, uh, our grandmother. So, uh, it was a combination of just the deteriorating conditions, uh and I and, I think, um, of course, her adult children.

Speaker 1: 2:35

Yeah, cause at that point all of you guys were out, and so because you guys were all adults at this point and you were all out by the time that your mom did correct.

Speaker 2: 2:44

Um, you know, I think that um, there were. I think that we, um, I should really fact check myself on how long ago it was, because I do remember that there there was a, our youngest uh sister, I believe was still in school, so it was not um a legal adult, but yes, I mean that the majority of us were out and had families and were working. And you know, continuously, as you do right, you know your heart breaks for those who are still in um and you and you make as much contact as you can and, um, you know the outreach really never let up. Um, and you know, I think every one of my siblings has their own version of this because we all had to leave under our own sort of personal timing. Um and um, you know our we just we've always encircled, you know, this group of brothers and sisters, each other in um, that, that, that that type of care and outreach for each other, and we still do. We're highly, we're a highly uh, vocal, uh and passionate group and we're very, very, very close still. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 3:48

I can't imagine you guys for family holidays. It's a lot of people, it's a lot, it's a lot of things.

Speaker 2: 3:54

Yeah, that's a big Thanksgiving dinner, that's for sure.

Speaker 1: 3:58

So I wanted to go back a little bit and you had spoke about how you guys would make these weekend trips and you would have to do this every single weekend. Can you go back a little bit and tell, tell me a little bit how kind of those days looked like, what type of labor you performed, what was it like?

Speaker 2: 4:20

Yeah, sure, um, so the, the cult is located right outside of a little town in Wisconsin called Shawno. Uh, s-h-a-w-a-n-o, it's near. It's near Green Bay, if you're not familiar at all with rural.

Speaker 2: 4:33

Wisconsin, which I'm not even, uh, still, but um, it was a farm, essentially uh, that the, the cult leader, had um settled into and we, as cult members and children, I should say, and it was, you know, is brutal Um really just engaged in construction, building out, you know, the barns and buildings. Of course there were animals, um, there's a constant fight, uh with mud, a lot of mud and dirt roads, um, but a lot of over construction. You know a lot of steel work, concrete work, um, really at all hours, terribly unsafe uh, and, you know, under horrific working conditions for everybody, for the adult, you know men who are there and then, ah, the kids who were, um, you know, put to work um on these. You know, round the clock um, uh, you know jobs, um, I think it was really.

Speaker 1: 5:32

How, how, how many hours did you guys have to work For a day?

Speaker 2: 5:36

We were there, yeah, so quite literally, yeah, so we would leave, uh, in my case, because we lived in Minnesota, in Ikea Minnesota, we would leave on Friday after school, uh, and we would drive six or seven hours through the night and get there, uh, basically in the wee hours of Saturday morning.

Speaker 2: 5:53

Um, and there might be some people who are arriving had arrived earlier on Friday and there was work going on, but usually it was the sleep. In these, you know, people sleep on, you know, on concrete floors and sleeping bags and in their cars, and you know, you know, as, um, there were, there were a couple members who were just lovely people who were in. They were also members who had homes nearby, so people would, you know, sleep, you know, shoulder to shoulder in their basements, and then the weekend was really would start with a very early morning, saturday morning, uh, meeting, which is like the religious meeting where we would all sit, uh, and, and here, um, you know, these fiery um, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you, you know ramps from this absolute psychopath cult leader and sing songs and read from the Bible and you know, these were, you know, on concrete floors or sitting in, you know, even sometimes just on dirt, depending on where it was.

Speaker 2: 6:54

And then the meeting would end after several hours and then the work would start. Some people would be in the field, some people would be on construction jobs, shoveling. We did a lot of shoveling, really low tech, just. You know awful labor and you know the food. You know we would eat one, you know maybe one meal a day, but we would work all through the day. And then there would be a night meeting on Saturday, and then some of us who are still working would just work into the night and weigh into the night, you know, into the wee hours of Sunday morning.

Speaker 2: 7:27

And then Sunday started, started all over same thing Long Sunday morning meeting. You know the psychopathic ramps of this, you know this horrible monster screaming at us, you know singling out parents dividing his sermons and his ramps for just, you know, just the. You know the darkness of a psychopath. And then back to work.

Speaker 2: 7:52

And what would happen was then we would all sort of do this routine and then, come Sunday night, you know, exhausted, beaten up, quite literally, sometimes because of the abuse but also by the labor and terrible living conditions, we would all pile into our cars and you know, I am certain, because I was witness to it, that these adults were very tired. They were exhausted mentally, emotionally, physically, and would drive back to their homes and in our, and many of them, many of them, were like us, many hours away. So in Minnesota, southern Minnesota, rochester and the, and in Mankato, you know those areas had many families living there. So we'd, you know, six, seven hours back into the night to get home at the wee hours of Monday morning and have to, you know, pull yourself out of bed and go to school. It was just extraordinarily difficult and draining in every sense of the way, routine.

Speaker 1: 8:57

So I have a couple of questions just listening to you about you know kind of your day to day there and you know, could you give me an example of maybe some of the rants that the leader and that would that he would perform on Saturdays or Sundays, and then also did they end up using any type of you know some of the member scare tactics or anything like that to keep you guys going all day, because I would assume that's really tough to get these kids to be working around the clock.

Speaker 2: 9:31

Yeah, so the, the rants and the sermons. Of course they morphed over the years because this narcissist with no education and you know, really just a heavy dose of psychotic behavior, depending on his mood, would tear into us, based on usually old, like old Testament scripture, kind of fire and brimstone we're all doomed, we're all going to hell, you know, very black and white, basically terrorizing us, terrorizing families, for having worldly thoughts or wanting to be anywhere but in this cult.

Speaker 2: 10:11

So it was a really an environment of fear and the men and women who joined, I know them all and don't think they signed up for this, but of course that brainwashing takes over and you know there were there were some pretty high and public I can I can send you the link later, Jamie there were some kidnappings from worried parents to rescue their adult children out of this cult in the. I think it was in the 80s and it was covered by the Minneapolis news stations who carried a whole series on this of people, parents trying to rescue their brainwashed children from this cult. So you know, this was to your point. I mean, this was an environment of fear and then buying in right. So you know, fortunately, my dad's one of those people who just went all in and just seated his will in his children and his and his own life and his happiness and his meaning of life to this person, this psychopath who, just frankly, has just just ended up destroying these families at their core and destroying childhoods along the way.

Speaker 2: 11:18

So yeah, it was just. It was like a blistering rants of black and white, health, fire and brimstone were all doomed, you know, and you know the various families were treated differently, be based on favoritism. Others were viciously attacked and my family was one of those viciously attacked. I was physically, basically officially attacked my whole childhood there, but also our family was sort of picked on brutally because we, you know, had light in our eyes and we have that fire and we had will, our own will. So yeah, that, that the cauldron of fear held together by basically fear. And then of course, these men, mostly men, who would just had become kind of like deputies to this, this person.

Speaker 1: 12:06

Yeah, it sounds to me when you're talking. If you had any question or if you questioned anything or saw anything outside of it, then you were deemed bad and that's not a favorite. And so what were? What was the dynamic with your parents going on during the weekends? Were you with them or did they separate the children from the parents?

Speaker 2: 12:31

Yeah, we'd all sit in the same room, divided by gender, in these meetings, but there was no family clustering happening as soon as we got there you know, there was your scatter, essentially the everyone's off doing the kind of what their role is to do in this, in this kind of communal situation Although it was not nothing so communal because it was all pointed at this you know, this monster at the top or the center, you know I made it really really particularly acute, Jamie, as a father thinking about this too, is that all this abuse and this, the horrific conditions happen to us While we are on the same property, are in the same rooms or within eyesight of our own parents and our parents friends, so it's the opposite of families being together. I mean, it's quite literally the divide, the dividing of families and, you know, basically daring a parent to stick up for one of their children, and I live that.

Speaker 1: 13:37

And then when you guys came back to your home and then Monday mornings you went back to school, what was that week like? Did you kind of go back into normal everyday? You know activities.

Speaker 2: 13:51

I mean sort of. I mean you're still a kid in a cult with a bad haircut and really awful clothes, right? You know you missed out on your friendships. You know things that normal kids would do on weekends. You know that my kids do and see their friends and spend time with them and play sports and all that stuff gone. But you know, school became a sanctuary for me. I was where I could not get beat up and you know, learning came very naturally and I was a very hard, hard worker too. So it was a sanctuary. But no, it's never normal Like you're there there's, like you live with, like this deep dread in your body because of the abuse and because you're trapped. You know it's wrong, like we all knew we were.

Speaker 1: 14:39

We all knew this was horrifically bad, but we were told Do you think, because you guys lived so far away and you were able to see other families living a different type of life, that helped you kind of see a different, like the light, as you say. And then also I wanted to know what was it like as a child on those Thursday or that Friday morning, every Friday morning, when you know that you have to go back?

Speaker 2: 15:08

Yeah, so the living. So we lived, you know, in, you know, on a nice neighborhood in Mankato, minnesota, right, I mean it's across from an elementary school and you know, not unlike the neighborhoods we live in now, jamie, you know very neighborhoody, you know friendly, because the Minnesota you know town, it's just it's so. Yes, we saw how people lived in our, you know we we sneak out over over to our friend's house and watch TV or sneak down to 711 and get candy bar, you know. So we tried to. You know we kind of lived in both worlds. We were never like purely in this prison, although I was. I was taken from my family and parked on this compound for many consecutive summers. For the entire summer break I would have. I was basically a prisoner at the call compound, that would so that. So I was a prisoner, I was a captive of the hostage, but my parents you know, gave me up because I was.

Speaker 2: 16:07

You know, I was demanded that I stay there. How?

Speaker 1: 16:11

old were you when that happened?

Speaker 2: 16:13

I think it started when I was six.

Speaker 1: 16:16

Oh, my gosh Okay.

Speaker 2: 16:19

Oh, I slept. Yeah, I slept on cardboard. I drank out of puddles. I survived as best I could. I was viciously cattle prodded and beaten with electric cords. I was tormented by this man who took a lot of joy in beating me up and locking me in dark rooms. I was, it was, you know, it was a full hostage situation, but it was a man and a child, so can you imagine how sick that was.

Speaker 1: 16:46

What was that like? When you would come back home, like how did you, how are you able to adjust? Is it as you mentioned before, you just took school and you just made that your place, that you focused and that was your sanctuary. How did you get through those transitions and what was going?

Speaker 2: 17:03

on, yeah, and it's yeah, I mean, I remember so, yes, earlier, like coming back on, coming back from this, you know, the cult on a Monday and dragging yourself to school yes, get used to that. There's, I'd wake up a dread we all did on Friday mornings, knowing we'd have to pack the car and get ready to make this horrible trek across Wisconsin to this cult. So you just constantly just going back and forth, emotionally right, and getting yourself kind of physically ready for how awful it's going to be to. And then, when I would stay as a, you know again, my parents put me right up to it, but I'd stay during the summers as a kid and come home, I will see like I missed the smell of my house.

Speaker 2: 17:48

I missed sleeping in my own room with my you know, we never had our own room because we had a big family, but it would just be like you just feel like, okay, I'm back, you know, but it you never. You never lose sight of the fact. I never lost sight of the fact, though, jamie, that this was like this is not right, right, and my, my parents allowed it to happen and it there's a lot of there's a lot there, you know, because you're, you're going, you're just in this twisted nightmare, and so you make the best of it right. So it's the siblings my brothers and sisters are. We became such a source of strength and humor and resourcefulness Since we were real little, and we're still like that today. It just you just find a way to find hope and then you keep going.

Speaker 1: 18:41

As a six year old do, or, you know, when you're there at six and seven and eight, when you're so young, did you have a hard time understanding why your parents or why your mom didn't come to help you.

Speaker 2: 18:56

I knew and then, yeah, I think so, I think that that's the there was the way of the Lord or at the time, it was a you know, whatever, whatever the flavor of it did change flavors over the years, but it was like this is the way you get to heaven and this is this. This monster is like our, our, whatever. It's clearly, clearly an anti-christ. But he was, he was put up if he put himself up, and he was followed as this sort of beacon. So the obedience and subservience was like the virtue. But yeah, no, it tormented me to know, like on Friday nights I would wait, wait, wait, wait.

Speaker 2: 19:35

When I was staying, you know, staying at the alcohol compound during my summers, I would wait for the moment I could glimpse, get a glimpse of my mom and my siblings when they would show up. You know, like everyone else, on a Friday night, I would wait for those moments to try to catch a glimpse of our seer. But, yeah, it was, it was. It's all twisted by religion. I mean this is like the like, the fanatic, fanatic religion. I mean it's about as. It's about as caustic and toxic, causing didn't think like causes, like parents to abandon their children in broad daylight, in front of them. I guess I can map it only back to what that brainwashing must have been for them and so what is the it?

Speaker 1: 20:25

has the cult's name changed from the time that your father first was introduced to it till now? Is it still going on, and how many people are still involved? Do you have any idea?

Speaker 2: 20:38

sure. So it started off called and you can google this, but it's it was called. What was it called? Disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ? I remember that in the 70s and I it is sent, morphed into some strange brew. It always was like this toxic eastern mythology, because he gives this psychopathic from India, there's a Hindu, so this in like the eastern mysticism and spiritual, everything's got a spirit, everything's got a consequence and you can catch a bad spirit or like if I touched your car and I had a bad spirit, your car would break, like all this crazy psycho stuff. But you layer on top of that fundamentalist Christianity. So heaven and hell, you know, thoughts would. Having a thought will put you in hell. And it morphed over the years into this like weird obsession with Judaism and it was always sort of counter-establishment.

Speaker 2: 21:36

And this man, this animal, reinvented himself as a Jew and I can send you articles about that. He, he, he. He changed his name to Abraham Cohen at one point. He changed his name to Samantha Roy, I think, for like from his first name. Now he's like Abraham Cohen and he's just keeps a professional thief, psycho, calm man. So he's like faking to be a Jew.

Speaker 2: 22:03

Now I heard he moved to Pike, still in the air, us Jamie, and promptly got exposed and kicked out for being an imposter in the Jewish community. And my, actually I have a sibling who worked in that pike still house as a essentially as a servant for a number of years. He's now out, my lovely brother, yeah, so I. And there's, and there is an odd, there's a thing called us the man to Roy Institute of Science and Technology, sis T, because he, I'm sure this is all lies. I mean I've got it, we have knowing, but I'm sure nothing, nothing he says ever true, but that there was a school in his home state of India said that we were funding with our measly donations and that we don't know where that money went.

Speaker 1: 22:49

I mean.

Speaker 2: 22:50

So he reinvented himself over and over and over, as most you know criminal con men do, but from businessman to. He calls himself doctor. But that's sure you know. If you can have that lies about it, that you can't. I mean, you're just a professional psychopathic criminal liar.

Speaker 2: 23:09

But I don't really know what it's called now and how many members I think in its prime or peak years. I think they're. I'm gonna probably get this wrong, but it's all these newspaper articles about about this call and I think I sent you there's one. There's a series that ABC dead called secrets and Shawna and there's some good material in there. I probably 75 families, maybe okay, but many, many have many have left. Some are still there, some are half in, half out, but I my senses it's not as organized as it used to be and I did want to ask because you had said this a little bit earlier and I thought what exactly do you mean?

Speaker 1: 23:54

you said that you guys dressed very differently than, say, quote-unquote, mainstream children what do you? Mean by that?

Speaker 2: 24:04

Well, I mean I don't want to pick on another religious group, but kind of think of Amish or Mennonites. The boys had we all had kind of buzz cuts and very basic kind of work clothes, like collared shirts and no shorts. No shorts allowed, collared shirts, sort of work pants, think of like dickies. And the girls had long hair and long dresses and very modest blouses again, so no exposed legs or anything, but maybe a short sleeve shirt. But really I mean, and of course you know it just stands out. I mean you still see religious groups who dress differently in airports and you know it's noticeable. But this was, you know this is a form of humiliation, for sure to break down sort of vanity and identity and any kind of self-worth.

Speaker 1: 25:02

You know, I did want to ask you a little bit about like how you met your wife and what that was like. You know getting married because you grew up looking at your parents and all of these other families and I'm sure you were kind of you know. What values are you taking from them or what do you want? To do differently, so tell me a little bit about that.

Speaker 2: 25:29

Sure, you know I had a. I really had a decent I think I always had a very decent sort of social emotional IQ, even through all this. But certainly post-cult I was able to I mean forge really great friendships. I'm still some of my closest couple, very close friends, who I grew up with in the cult, but you know, I felt very comfortable being. You know they did.

Speaker 2: 25:57

You know I'm sure there was impact in you know, of course, from trauma. But you know I was yearned to be a father. I was kind of it's like fatherhood to me, almost like from a fresh lens. I just wanted to be, I felt like I was a big brother, sort of sometimes fathered to my real young siblings. But I'm a giver, I'm a helper, I'm an empath and those. So when I met my wife, you know, like other relationships I had, you know, along the way, it just it didn't feel, you know, nothing fell out of the ordinary or forced. You know we were, we were set up in Washington DC. When I came to Washington to practice law and my now wife was, was just graduating from GW University, we were set up to mutual friends. Yeah, so that's how we all, that's how we came together.

Speaker 1: 27:03

And then what was it like for you kind of navigating marriage, not having you know parents or people around you to look at and use them as sort of someone to say, you know, this is what a marriage you know is, this is how I'd like to see my marriage. Or was there somebody even growing up that you did see, that you thought you know what? That is the type of marriage that I'd like to have.

Speaker 2: 27:27

Yeah, no, there was not a single. I mean, I probably looked at friends whose parents you know, who were not non-cult people who I thought, gosh, I wish I had a dad who, you know, patted me on the head or smiled at me. But yeah, I was still kind of like, you know, still emerging from, you know, this situation and in fact, at our wedding not all my siblings were there because they weren't out yet. My, my, my mom wasn't there because she was not out yet. So I was walked down the aisle and my wife's, from a very traditional, awesome family, she's got one sibling and absolutely lovely parents. So, you know, she had to deal with the whole box of crazy when it came to this developing story. So I was walked down the aisle by two sisters and my one brother was able to come, but again, it was a fragmented still, it was a work in progress.

Speaker 2: 28:24

So, in terms of fatherhood, I feel it's an odd way that my situation was so acute that it doesn't even register with me as fatherhood. You know, I I feel like I don't have to. You know, again, I don't, I have no contact with him since the nineties. I don't, I don't even remember the last time I heard his voice, but I have a fresh slate as a father and you know I think we covered this a little bit, jamie.

Speaker 2: 28:56

Like being a father, then my boy's coming first and then my daughter, seeing, like when they reach certain ages right, you know it makes your heart stop because you think, oh my gosh. I'm looking at the into the eyes of my four year old son, you know my now 16 year old and having this moment like I know exactly what I was going through when I was four. I'm looking at my son and I'm thinking I'm kind of reliving that right. I'm thinking how could someone put a child in any kind of harm's way, intentionally and over and over? I don't know, it's just. I think it just adds the light and it adds the, the, the, the, the the the the, the intensity of compassion and love, and just like the mindfulness to being a father.

Speaker 2: 29:51

Now I just I'm probably not a person particularly in this. Very well, but I have a fresh slate and I actually got to see things. I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think I got to see the light and I actually got to see things, I think, you know, because of what I went through and probably even a greater light.

Speaker 1: 30:15

I'm glad you brought that up because when you were talking I actually was going to ask you that how did that feel when your first child that was born that was, your son turned like six years old and you looked at him and thought and as an adult you realized just how little you were when all of this is going on and the thought of that happening to your child I'm sure had to have this really intense feeling for you.

Speaker 2: 30:42

Yeah, you said it so perfectly well, jamie, I mean it and then.

Speaker 2: 30:46

And then you know there's the other, the other things that they're going through, right they're. They turn four, then they turn six and certainly you know, like I said, my, my kid's bigger than me now. I have, like he and he's a young man and like seeing what kind of a quality human he's turning into. You know, he, he it, just it, just again. But knowing what I had to, to suffer through and to get here, I mean there's, this is not an accident, this isn't luck, right, I mean this is a people are fully broken from this experience and you know, just seeing kids be kids, seeing kids be annoying, seeing kids not care what I'm doing at all, just as long as their Wi-Fi works, right, I mean, but that's what safe kids act like and living in that is is everything.

Speaker 1: 31:44

Do you feel that the way that you brought up made you as a parent? Do you think that you are more protective or extra cautious of people around them and what they were doing? Do you think that had any effect on that?

Speaker 2: 32:02

Yeah, maybe I thought of it that way. You know I'm probably the easy of it. I'm the more laid back of the two parents. I think you know more permissive, but that's good balance, I think I. You know there's always one in the other, right, there's one in the other. You know it's a great question.

Speaker 2: 32:24

I think that really enjoying how unstructured parenthood is at times, but also being, like you know, pretty resolute, like I'm a, you know, pretty decisive and you know I have really, you know, good ideas, I think maybe some bad ideas, but pretty resolute about, you know, helping guide the kids and mostly just towards character stuff. You know, like the education will come and they're getting great education. That's the most important thing in my house and they're tremendous athletes all three of them, but being able to see how impactful we are as parents, like that they're not always acting like they're listening, but they're listening and it's neat to see how they're just there. You know they change so much, so quickly, right. So let them. Let them make mistakes, right? In COVID I used to say to my kids go outside and make some bad decisions, you know I mean only have joking. Like seriously, go be a kid, like go, I got you back.

Speaker 1: 33:27

Yeah, I do say that a lot with people who are talking about parenting and it's just they. They pretend like they're not listening, but they are definitely watching. They may not be listening that much, but they are watching everything that you do.

Speaker 2: 33:41

Yeah, that's for sure, that is for sure.

Speaker 1: 33:45

So if you were to speak to your father today, what do you think you would say to him, or how would you feel about seeing him?

Speaker 2: 33:57

You know, I think I don't know, I mean I have no, I have no, there's no tension or conflict in me about it. I think I have just come to peace with it. It's a, it's really sad, it's a really tragic life to have this wonderful family and throw it away. It's so pathetic. It's just so, just so pathetic. People wish they could have children sometimes and can't, you know, and wish they could have freedom, and they can't. And here, you know, there's person through it, all away and actually kind of you know, put us through these decades of absolute hell. But I don't know, I mean I don't, I don't really have anything to say to him.

Speaker 1: 34:56

Okay Now, before I let you go and I'm so glad that we were a- little bit more. Is there anything that we haven't covered that you want to talk about?

Speaker 2: 35:09

Well, you're fantastic, jamie, you've got it all covered. You know. I think that you know I share this with you. I think and when I only talked before is that you know fatherhood can be a fresh start for kids who grew up without in any circumstance where there's an absent father or an abusive father. And in getting through the youth you know, getting through youth, my youth I'll speak for myself I really started latching on to mentors, friendships, finding safety in whoever I could, and it feels really, really crappy when you know your own parents in this situation I know you're focusing a lot on fatherhood in your work, Jamie is you can't encourage, you know kids who are challenged in that respect. Just see if there's someone safe or it could be a teacher, it could be an aunt, it could be a friend, because what children really crave is safety. At the most fundamental, they need food, water and safety. And safety is not just physical safety, it's knowing. You know it's mental safety. Right, and you know the path through that trauma.

Speaker 2: 36:39

I look back and I realize I forged whatever relationships I needed to forge. Sometimes I was pretty Machiavellian about it, but just to get through the next thing and I've, you know, I feel like I'm that person now for a lot of people, right, you know you want to, you want to be a good friend, you want to be able to, you know, hold and keep secrets for them. That's their competencies, I guess it's probably a better word. But connectivity to me, I would, you know, I do. You know. Unfortunately there are children all over the place living this life and it feels hopeless. So you chip away at that with, you know, but it's connecting, you know, it's a people solution, I think, along the way.

Speaker 1: 37:26

Well, thank you so much, Peter, for coming on and talking with me again. It was great. I learned so much, I know I was like this is going to be maybe like 20 minutes, and now it's 45 minutes.

Speaker 2: 37:38

No, no, I know, and you got me thinking too. You've asked me questions, but I haven't thought of it. I'm not surprised, jamie. Extremely well done, thank you for having me.

Speaker 1: 37:49

Of course, thank you. All right, let me.

Speaker 2: 37:52

All right.