The Truman Charities Podcast
Join Jamie Truman on a transformative journey as she connects to individuals making a difference in their communities. From New York Times bestselling authors to compassionate doctors and visionary farmers, our podcast unveils untold narratives shaping our communities. Whether it's a doctor revolutionizing healthcare or a farmer transforming food systems, our guests are trailblazers, influencers, and innovators driving positive change.
Truman Charities, a charitable organization with a mission, donates $250 toward their causes for every powerful story shared on the podcast.
The Truman Charities Podcast
Poisoned Water, Corporate Greed: Dupont Chemical Cover-Up | The Story Behind The Feature Film "Dark Waters" | Robert Bilott, Esq. Episode 138
Invisible toxins linked to cancer and chronic disease could be hiding in your water, your food, and even your bloodstream. In this gripping episode, we look into how “forever chemicals” have polluted our world and created a global health crisis with Robert Bilott, the attorney whose decades-long battle against DuPont exposed one of the worst corporate cover-ups in history.
From the lies that kept communities in the dark to the disturbing realities of animal deformities and the Teflon flu, this conversation reveals the shocking truth Big Chem tried to bury — and what’s still being hidden today.
Discover how to reduce your exposure, make safer choices for your family, and join the growing movement demanding accountability and lasting change!
Purchase Robert Bilott’s book, Exposure: Poisoned Water, Corporate Greed, and One Lawyer's Twenty-Year Battle Against DuPont on Amazon!
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Email: info@trumancharities.com
This episode was post produced by Podcast Boutique https://podcastboutique.com/
Welcome to the Truman Charities Podcast. I am Jamie Truman, your host. What are forever chemicals and how are they affecting our health? Robert Billett was a lawyer in Cincinnati working for the chemical companies until he got a phone call from a farmer saying they were poisoning not only his cows but his family too. Since then, robert has dedicated over 20 years to fighting those same companies over what we know now as forever chemicals found in our products and drinking water. Robert's story is also the subject of the documentary the Devil we Know and the feature film Dark Waters starring Anne Hathaway and Mark Ruffalo. I learned about Robert through his book Exposure Poisoned Water, corporate Greed and One Lawyer's 20-Year Battle Against DuPont. Robert will share insights on how to ensure these chemicals aren't in your family's drinking water, what products to avoid and what steps we can take to reduce our family's exposure to forever chemicals. Before we speak with Robert, please take a moment to rate and review our podcast. We are a 100% volunteer-based organization, so the reviews are a central way to help new listeners discover our podcast.
Speaker 1:Please welcome attorney Robert Billett to Truman Charities. Rob, I am very excited that you decided to come on and speak with us today. I read your book Exposure and I could not put it down and after I read it I thought, oh my gosh, I just have to have him on to talk with us. I think it's really interesting because you are a lawyer working in Cincinnati, you're a corporate defense lawyer and you went from working for the chemical companies you know, fighting on their behalf, to then ending up fighting against these companies for over 20 years. So your book begins when a farmer named Earl Tennant calls you about his cows dying on his farm. So I want to kind of start from the beginning. Tell us a little bit about why you decided to become a lawyer and then tell us kind of about that phone call.
Speaker 2:I'm actually talking to you from the same law firm. I've been here now almost 35 years. I originally became a lawyer gosh, I graduated back in 1990. Kind of was not my original idea. I was thinking I was going to be an architect. And then, when I was in college, I was thinking I was going to be a city manager and my dad, who had been in the Air Force for, oh gosh, 20 years, actually had retired and had started a second career. He had decided to go to law school when I was in college, in high school. So he had called me one day saying hey, you know, you ought to look into a law degree. It might give you some opportunities you hadn't thought about and kind of that started me on that path and I applied to law school, ended up at Ohio State and I've been practicing law ever since now almost 35 years.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's incredible. I can't believe you're at the same place 35 years. So tell us about that phone call.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I started my career with the TAF firm here in Cincinnati and really for the first eight years or so kind of was focusing on a lot of our existing clients, which were big chemical companies, big corporations, helping them navigate the federal state environmental rules, laws and really kind of thought that was the trajectory I was on on my career path. And one day I get a call in my office and the gentleman on the other end of the line is very angry and is telling me about cows dying on his property out in West Virginia and really was kind of taken aback. You know it's not the kind of thing I was doing at the time, had no idea why he was calling me of all people, and I was actually about to hang the phone up when he told me your grandmother said you'd help me. And at that point I found out he was calling from Parkersburg, west Virginia. And then I understood the connection.
Speaker 2:My mom, you know, had grown up in Parkersburg and yet, even though my dad was in the Air Force, we had moved around a lot. When I was a kid Parkersburg was always the place we went for family holidays, birthdays et cetera. So you know, when I heard this gentleman was calling me from Parkersburg heard that somehow this call had come to me through my grandmother. I thought maybe this is you know. I'll pay attention to see if there's something I can do to help this guy for Parkersburg.
Speaker 2:We ended up taking on his case and that launched what became gosh. We're now up to about 26 years of nonstop litigation over a family of chemicals that at the time when we first were talking to Mr Tennant, I don't think anybody even knew existed on the planet other than the companies making them. And now I think the rest of the world is finally learning that these chemicals we call PFAS, per and polyfluoroalkylated substances completely man-made chemicals called. We now hear them referred to also as forever chemicals. The rest of the world is now finally becoming aware that these chemicals are out there and contaminating virtually the entire planet.
Speaker 1:So when Mr Tennant came in with these tapes, can you tell us what was on those tapes?
Speaker 2:Yeah, after listening to this initial phone call I thought, ok, you know, let's see if I can help. And so I invited Mr Tennant to come on up to our offices. So he did. He and his wife drove up. This is back in October of 1998. And they came in armed with boxes of VHS videotapes and photographs and we pulled the TV in the VCR in, started watching these tapes and it's pretty compelling. Crn started watching these tapes and it's pretty compelling.
Speaker 2:You could see video of white foam coming out of a landfill next to his property, going into a creek, and that's the creek that his cattle were drinking from. Not only the cattle but the surrounding wildlife, the deer, the turkey, the fish, the birds and what Mr Tennant had been videotaping, going back, gosh, almost as far as 1995, 96, was, as these animals, particularly the cows, you know, were drinking this white foam in the water. They were getting sicker over time and you could see on the videotape these animals, the fur on their hooves, being eaten away from whatever was in this foam. They were developing tumors, they were wasting away. No matter how much he would feed them, they just kept losing weight and eventually calves were being born with burst effects or stillborn.
Speaker 2:There was a point in time where Mr Tennant was trying to figure out what was going on, what was in this foam, and he had actually started dissecting the animals, opening them up, and he had video of what he was seeing deformed organs, green ooze, blackened teeth. It was really pretty compelling video, and you know those people out there that might have seen the film Dark Waters or the documentary the Devil we Know. Mr Tennant's actual videos were incorporated into those films. I mean they were that compelling. So after watching all of that it was becoming pretty clear there was something clearly happening, something in this white foam that was really impacting the cattle herd.
Speaker 1:In the book you talk about, when you actually went to go visit Mr Tennant and his wife and his family and you're sitting at the kitchen table and he brought out jars of like discolored water up to the light with assorted bone animals, including like cow skulls with blackened teeth, and all the things that you're describing. What was it like to actually see that in person?
Speaker 2:Most of my career up to that point, you know I'd been talking with, oh gosh, in-house lawyers or corporate lawyers that are in their offices, you know, dealing with kind of abstract legal issues. So this was one of the first times I had actually gone out and met with a client at their home, at their property, and, you know, with Mr Tennant. When we arrived at the farm, we were met by the most of the immediate family was there as well His brothers, their wives, the kids, and you know they were telling us that the impact that this was having on them personally. These weren't just livestock to these people, these were like family members, these animals had names and they were devastated by what was happening. And so not only did I get to hear the story from them directly, I got to see the place, I got to see the farm, I got to walk the property and really see how important this property was to this family, these animals, and what a truly devastating impact this was having on them.
Speaker 1:And at the time when you had met Mr Tennant, was DuPont one of the top chemical companies in the United States States.
Speaker 2:Yes, you know, at the time Mr Tennant reached out to me in late 1998, our law firm we were representing a lot of big companies, a lot of big chemical companies. Dupont was not one of our clients but we knew them because at the time DuPont was one of the world's largest chemical companies. Yeah, they had facilities all over the world manufacturing pretty well-known items like Teflon and other materials.
Speaker 1:So when you ended up putting a lawsuit to DuPont, tell us a little bit about the cattle team with the EPA and the results of that.
Speaker 2:You know, after listening to Mr Tennant, seeing what was happening with the cows, watching these videos and looking at the photographs, became pretty clear there was a problem here. So we agreed to take on that case, for Mr Tennant led to us filing a formal lawsuit against DuPont. And after we did that, actually the lawyers for DuPont reached out to us and said hey, you know, let's take a little step back here. You know, no need to get into a big fight through the courts, because after all, we, dupont, we've just set up this team that's going to investigate what's really happening to the cows, and they called it the cattle team. And what DuPont's attorneys explained was that they had appointed three of their top veterinarians, was that they had appointed three of their top veterinarians. Us EPA, the Environmental Protection Agency, was going to appoint three of its top veterinarians and you know we're going to have these. Six really high-quality scientists were going to investigate what was happening there at the farm, going to investigate what was happening to the cows and come up with this scientific answer, you know, to what was really happening. And at the time it sounded great. It sounded like, you know, this was fantastic. I mean, after all, dupont had some of the best scientists on the planet. Usepa had some of the best scientists, so if we're going to have that kind of an expert team looking at it, terrific, you know, let's get that report.
Speaker 2:Unfortunately, when we ended up getting that report, it was pretty shocking, frankly. The report suggested that they couldn't really identify any issue in the water you know that the cows were drinking that might have been coming out of this landfill. In fact, they blamed Mr Tenna. Essentially said, this gentleman simply may not know how to raise cattle or at worst he might even be abusing these animals. Now when I saw that, that really raised some red flags in my mind, because I had been there, I had seen this property, I had talked to the tenants. They knew how to raise cattle. They certainly weren't abusing these animals. So that really was the beginning of me starting to question what's really going on here.
Speaker 1:In your opinion? Do you think that the EPA was corrupt at all?
Speaker 2:What we learned over the years.
Speaker 2:There are some fantastic folks at US EPA and there still are that were trying to actually understand what was happening.
Speaker 2:In fact, when the US EPA first went out in response to Mr Tenet calling them back in 1997, even before he called me US EPA had actually started an investigation, was trying to figure out what was happening. And US EPA was actually finding some things they couldn't understand. They were finding these odd fluoride materials in the water at the landfill and in the creek that the cows were drinking and they were about to launch their own investigation. And they were about to launch their own investigation and that's when DuPont had come up with this idea of oh no, you know, no needS EPA would start to really want to dig into what was happening. They were getting misinformation, they were being told to look the wrong way and unfortunately that continued for decades and to some degree it's still continuing. There's still an active campaign to try to mislead our regulatory agencies, the scientific community and even the public about what these chemicals are and the threat that they present to human health and the environment.
Speaker 1:So the chemical which was PFOA, crushed from Teflon. Now why wasn't that listed? So when I was reading the book and it said that that was a chemical that wasn't listed under the hazardous waste, how did that not get regulated at all?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we. Eventually, when we started digging into all this, we found out that there was a chemical in the water these cows were drinking called PFOA perfluoroactanoic acid something I had never heard of. In fact it was a chemical that had been invented by the 3M company kind of back the time of World War II, and DuPont had been purchasing that chemical to use in the manufacturing process for Teflon and in fact it was that chemical that was getting into the landfill, into the white foam that was getting into the creek these cows were drinking. And when we started piecing all this together, when I first started seeing references to that chemical, I was going to my lists of regulated toxic, hazardous materials that the US EPA and other agencies had created. That chemical wasn't on those lists. So at first, when I'm seeing references to that and seeing it's not on any of the lists, my reaction was well, must not be harmful, must not be bad, it's not even on the list.
Speaker 2:But I kept seeing more and more documents, internal documents at DuPont, with scientists doing lots of studying about this chemical, and what we eventually found out was it wasn't on the list because the companies making and using these 3M DuPont essentially had covered up the fact that this chemical even existed and had not disclosed to the US EPA, the regulators, the scientific community that not only that this chemical was out there, but that it presented a serious threat to human health and the environment, that it was getting in to not only drinking water all over the planet but into people's blood all over the planet.
Speaker 2:Essentially, it was a chemical that had predated our regulatory system in the United States. You know, the US EPA didn't come into existence until 1970, and our first rules and laws really regulating how you test new chemicals coming into the world rolled out in the late 70s. Well, again, this was a chemical that had been invented in the 1940s and was being used in massive quantities by the 1950s and 60s, so before those rules and laws came out. And unfortunately, when the laws did start coming out and the regulations did start requiring disclosure of health risk information, the companies making and using this, the folks like 3M and DuPont, simply didn't tell the EPA that this chemical was there and that it presented a risk. In fact, it was through our lawsuit for Mr Tennant that we discovered that and ended up funneling that information to the regulators, and that's what eventually led to the rest of the world finally finding out about these stuff.
Speaker 1:Right. I found it really interesting when I was reading the book that it was 1962, that that was the year that Teflon was approved for consumer cookware and that was the same year that they conducted that rat experiment. Can you talk a little bit about that experiment that they conducted?
Speaker 2:Yeah, what we see.
Speaker 2:And if you go back in the history here and look at what was known about the dangerousness of this chemical, pfoa, you were getting to the point in time in the early 1960s where DuPont was about to launch Teflon out into the world and pots and pans, and so again, this is before the EPA existed and before all these rules and regulations were out there. But DuPont had this massive internal laboratory in Delaware and you know that didn't exist in the natural world and completely man-made, and the concern was that really strong chemical backbone. This stuff wasn't going to break down when it got out into the environment. And so the DuPont scientists became concerned hey, if we're about to launch this out into the world, you know what's it going to do to living things that might get exposed? So they had begun doing animal studies on the toxicity of this chemical in the earlyinea pigs, eventually even monkeys. They were finding multiple adverse effects, different organ systems, in fact. By the late 1960s they had completed a number of these studies and were finding that the chemical was incredibly toxic.
Speaker 1:Right, Can you tell us a little bit about what the people that were working at DuPont? They had something called the Teflon flu. Can you tell us about that?
Speaker 2:You know, when the company began the process of manufacturing Teflon, one of the one of the factories actually became the world's largest Teflon manufacturing facility happened to be located outside of Parkersburg, west Virginia, along the Ohio River. And when they started the manufacturing process, this material would get heated up and get into the air, not only going up the stacks from the factory, but some of the dust and material would get inside the factory as well. And unfortunately, what became evident by the early 1960s is that breathing this material in this heated up Teflon vapor could create something they called the polymer fume fever, or another word for it was the Teflon flu, and workers that got exposed this way from this heated up material would develop flu-like symptoms here that would last a couple of weeks. And again, this was documented in the 1960s that this could happen if you heated this material up.
Speaker 1:Wow, and so I want to talk a little bit about so in the book you mentioned it was a fourth grade PE teacher named Joe and he spoke about his granddaughter that had black teeth, and he received a letter from DuPont. Can we talk a little bit about how, speaking with Joe and him?
Speaker 2:getting that letter and then the effects of that water that was having in the community when it's consumed Tenet's property wasn't just getting into the water these cows were drinking on Mr Tenet's property, but that that same chemical, pfoa, was being emitted into the air from the smokestacks from the nearby Teflon manufacturing plant.
Speaker 2:Massive quantities of liquid waste were coming from that same plant being dumped directly into the Ohio River, and that liquid sludges from the plant were being dumped into the ground around the property and that this chemical had actually found its way into the public drinking water of Mr Tennant's entire surrounding community, the Parkersburg area.
Speaker 2:In fact, dupont had gone out, sampled the public water systems in Ohio and West Virginia on both sides of the Ohio River, and had found that the chemical had sampled the public water systems in Ohio and West Virginia on both sides of the Ohio River and had found that the chemical had gotten into the public water as early as 1984.
Speaker 2:And so when we finally started revealing that information, you know I sent the letter to the US EPA alerting them that this had happened back in 2001. You know that's when the entire community finally found out for the first time you know that this chemical had gotten into their drinking of testicular cancers in young men there in the community, and so he had reached out to me, you know, trying to see if there was a way we could do something for the community there to find out, you know, what's this chemical doing to people, what's the long-term health impacts and, most importantly, how do we get it out of their water now. So that led to a class action lawsuit that we filed in 2001 and years of additional fighting with DuPont to get that community clean water and appropriate medical testing.
Speaker 1:So what were and are the long-term consequences of consuming PFOA for individuals? And also I wanted to know if you knew what the long-term consequences were to the individuals that were working with Teflon at DuPont.
Speaker 2:Well, through the litigation that we started there for the community back in 2001, it eventually led to a big settlement in 2004, where DuPont agreed to finally pay for filtration systems to get it out of the public water, get it out of people's private wells in the community and also to do something pretty unusual. We set up an independent panel of scientists who studied all of the available information, published literature, the internal studies that had been covered up for decades. They did new massive studies of tens of thousands of people in the community. They spent seven years studying and analyzing all this data and by 2012, that panel was able to confirm that drinking this chemical in water was linked with six serious diseases testicular cancer, kidney cancer, thyroid disease, preeclampsia, ulcerative colitis and high cholesterol. And keep in mind, you know the part of the group that was studied included DuPont's workers. You know thousands of workers were part of the study as well, so you know the workers there were able to finally get compensated and relief for the cancers and other health impacts that they had developed as well.
Speaker 1:So when did DuPont pull PFOA from the market?
Speaker 2:Took a little longer. For years, dupont continued to represent to the public, to scientists, to regulators that there was no problem with this chemical and it presented no risk to human health or the environment. But as the story finally got out, people finally started to see what the science did actually show about the risk here. Dupont was eventually even sued by the US EPA for having withheld this information for years. By 2006, dupont had finally agreed that they would phase out any further use of PFOA, but they would take 10 years to do it, that they would phase it out and be done by 2015. So it took some time, but they eventually did finally agree to stop using the chemical and the manufacturer at least stopped here in the United States.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's incredible because even when it became national news, which was in 2003, when ABC did a segment with Barbara Walters on Teflon, so 2000,. What you said, 16, 15, when it was phased out. So tell me, do you think that it's contaminated globally now?
Speaker 2:Yeah, unfortunately, what we have found is this chemical, pfoa, and there's a very closely related chemical that was also invented and manufactured by 3M, called PFOS, which was used in things like Scotchgard and firefighting foams. Well, these chemicals that both have eight carbons attached to fluorine, or they're called C8s, these chemicals are now being found in the drinking water all over the planet. These chemicals get out into the air and they get into the water droplets and clouds and fall in the rain. All polar bears in Arctic ice caps, in the mountains of Tibet, I mean literally everywhere. And not only does it get into our water, it gets into the soil.
Speaker 2:And again, you hear these chemicals because of this unique man-made structure where they just don't break down over time. We hear them referred to as forever chemicals, because when they get out in the air, or they get into the water, they get into our groundwater or the surface waters, or they get into the soil, they stay there. And so we've now realizing these chemicals are being found all over the planet. They're being found in drinking water in Australia, in Japan, in Italy, in Germany, literally everywhere. They're being found in food, in crops, you know, unfortunately, these materials have made their way into wastewater systems and for many years that's that wastewater. You know these wastewater systems would create sludges that got sent out as fertilizers and used in farm fields. So sludges that got sent out as fertilizers and used in farm fields. So unfortunately, we're finding the chemicals also getting into crops, getting into livestock. So the stuff is unfortunately virtually everywhere and then where it ultimately ends up is in the blood of almost every person on the planet.
Speaker 2:These chemicals, when they get in our water, we get exposed to them, they get into people and they stay there. Our bodies really don't know how to get rid of them, so they persist and they build up over time. So they get in our body, they stay in our blood, they circulate throughout all of our organs and they build up over time and unfortunately, as we discussed, they've been linked to a number of really serious health impacts. And more recent data is raising even more concerns because now we see that these chemicals also can impact our immune system, possibly even decreasing effectiveness of vaccines. So there's real concern that you've got really unprecedented global impact Chemicals that are being found throughout our environment, being found in our blood that could have some pretty serious impact. So it's now, I think, pretty well recognized. This is a global public health issue.
Speaker 1:So what can we do? So what do you think is the best way to filter our waters?
Speaker 2:Fortunately, at least with the C8s, the two chemicals we know the most about, pfoa and PFOS they can be pretty well effectively removed from drinking water systems. It's not easy, it's not inexpensive, unfortunately. You're talking about installing things like granular activated carbon or reverse osmosis ion exchange systems, public treatment systems that we can put this in and filter this out, or even home wells. You can install point-of-entry treatment systems that pretty effectively reduce it out of our drinking water. It's a whole other issue of how do we get it out of the ground. How do we get it out of the groundwater? But at least we can filter it out of the drinking water. But it's expensive, incredibly expensive.
Speaker 1:And how do you find out if your local water treatment center is using a filtration system on your water?
Speaker 2:Well, there's been extensive sampling now across at least across the United States, and sampling is beginning in other parts of the world as well. In Europe, there was a massive sampling program here just last year. There are some resources available online resources available online. For example, the Environmental Working Group maintains a map of the United States where you can look and see whether your system has been tested and, if so, what the levels are. So there is information out there. Now that these chemicals have just become regulated at least a couple of them PFOA and PFOS the US EPA just adopted the very first enforceable drinking water limits for these chemicals just a couple of months ago. But now that they are regulated, there's information available, typically through your public water provider, about whether testings occur, to what the levels are.
Speaker 1:Is it helping when you at home have your own like we have a filtration system here. Is that helpful?
Speaker 2:Typically the most effective type of treatment is to put a treatment system on at the water source. For example, if you're on a public water system, you know in a larger city or someplace like that, typically the most effective way to treat is to have the filtration system at the public water source. Or if you're on a private well at your home, you know to have some system that treats the water before it enters the home so that all the water sources are treated. I think there are a number of companies that are also working on under sink or you know-type filters. That's still in process, because one of the things that's also happened over the last couple of years is we've started to realize we don't need to an entire family of these man-made PFAS chemicals. It's not just a couple of C8s we now made. There may be about 14,000 or more of these PFAS chemicals, and so the ability of these filtration systems varies on whether they can, how many of these materials they can filter out and how effectively they can do it.
Speaker 1:So let's talk a little bit about cookware now. So I want to know if it's true. So we're not using Teflon, so it's PFOA isn't being used anymore. However, there are still a lot of nonstick pans, and so they may say that they're not using that particular chemical, but is it possible that they're using a different type of chemical as an alternative? That could be just as harmful.
Speaker 2:As I mentioned, this family of chemicals we now call PFAS, you know, could have thousands of chemicals in that family. Pfoa was just one of those. Now, pfoa, the C8 material, was phased out of manufacture in the US as we talked. You know this was phased out a couple of years ago. Well, what happened is that DuPont actually had started making its own PFOA. After 3M stopped supplying it, dupont had started making it and then eventually again they phased it out by around 2013,. By 2015. They said they weren't using it anymore. Well, what they did is they took C8 and they simply knocked off two carbons. Instead of making C8, they started making a new material they called C6. They renamed it Gen X and then they started using that material Gen X in the manufacture of Teflon. Gen X started being sent to the same factory in West Virginia that had been making the Teflon.
Speaker 2:Gen X starts going into the air, starts going into the water, starts being found in drinking water supplies and, as people then started to realize well, wait a minute there's more of these chemicals out there than PFOA and PFOS. Now we have things like Gen X. Well, what happened is the companies making them would say, oh, all of the science that exists was on C8. There's no evidence that these new ones are causing problems. You have to start all over again, all right. And so unfortunately what happened is people started to realize well, it's not just C6. Some companies are making C4s, some are making C9s and C10s, so you've got all of these other chemicals out there. So now as a consumer it gets incredibly confusing because you'll now watch late night television. You'll see cookware being advertised and it might say PFOA free, but that means that's the C8 that we stopped making years ago. That doesn't mean it doesn't have another one of the PFAS, all right.
Speaker 2:So unfortunately this gets really confusing. Pfoa, pfas I mean consumers can't really keep track of the difference in all these. So what we've now started to see different states are starting to crack down on that kind of advertising to say you know, you've got to be more clear about whether it's got any of these chemicals in it. And then unfortunately that becomes difficult even for the companies making these products, because a lot of the information about which of these PFAS chemicals exist, the makers of those chemicals aren't necessarily even disclosing that to the companies that they're selling the stuff to. So as a consumer, unfortunately we're the one sort of stock, because there's not a lot of information out there. So all you can do is really kind of look for buzzwords. You know, if you see things advertised as nonstick, see things advertised as nonstick, stain resistant, waterproof, grease resistant Odds are these types of PFAS chemicals typically have been used in those products in the past and a lot of companies are starting to come forward and commit to not use them going forward, you know, because as consumers have become educated, they're now demanding hey, we don't want any of these in our products.
Speaker 2:So because of that consumer demand, the markets are shifting and companies are starting to move away from these chemicals. But as consumers it's still very difficult. It's. You know, these chemicals haven't been regulated, so it's not like they appear on the ingredient lists or the warning labels. You really got to do your homework to find out where they've been used and what products.
Speaker 1:What does your family use for their cookingware?
Speaker 2:Well, cast iron, all right, and we try to avoid anything that's got any kind of nonstick coating of any kind on it.
Speaker 1:So that's probably your best bet, then I would think so. Yeah, it seems so overwhelming. Was there ever a point where you just wanted to walk away?
Speaker 2:No, Well, you know, this has been a long journey 26 years here and there are a number of points in time where this got incredibly frustrating.
Speaker 2:You know, as we're seeing information within these internal company files, you know, really making the extent of this massive public health threat pretty clear, this massive public health threat pretty clear.
Speaker 2:But then, at the same time, you know we're seeing that the regulators aren't paying attention, scientific community isn't looking at this, the public doesn't know this is happening. I mean, it took a long time to find ways to effectively get this story out in a way that people could actually understand what's happening and begin to do something about it. You know, and it took things like films, you know, having a major motion picture like Dark Waters, you know. Or documentaries like the Devil, we Know, or the new one, how to Poison a Planet. When those stories come out in a way like that that people can actually see why this matters way like that, that people can actually see why this matters, why this chemical is of concern and how it's impacting real people, I think we finally started to see efforts begin to demand that regulators take action, to demand that the laws start to change, and we're finally seeing that begin to happen.
Speaker 1:So what was it like? So there's a major motion picture that was inspired by your book and your life, and you have your wife getting played by Anne Hathaway and you're played by Mark Ruffalo. It's got to be a surreal experience. What was that like for you?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I think surreal is probably one of the best words to use, you know, just totally bizarre. You know, I still remember I think it was back in 2016,. An article had come out in the New York Times Magazine that was kind of giving an overview of the story we've just been talking about. And after that article appeared, I got a phone call from Mark Ruffalo reaching out, you know, and he had been very active in water issues for many years and after reading this article in the New York Times magazine, he was floored. You know he was trying to understand how could something like this be happening in the United States? And he had never heard of it. And why was this in the New York Times magazine? Why wasn't it on the front page of the New York Times? How could we get this story out more effectively to the public? And it was really his idea.
Speaker 2:You know, to do a film and you know that took a long time for me to really grasp my head around all of that. You know I'm a lawyer and I was dealing with these issues in court cases and you know. But eventually, you know, I really started to understand. You know this doing a film could really make a difference. No-transcript finally decided. Well, let's do it. You know, and that was a big risk to take, you know, to do something like that because, keep in mind, you know, it was about a law firm, a real law firm, and about real people and places that still exist and were ongoing. So you know, but luckily, mark was able to pull together a fantastic team, an incredible director, todd Haynes, a incredible group of participant media and we're able to put it together the right way. You know, we're able to stick to the facts and to the truth and to present what really happened to real people and, I think, ended up doing a fantastic job with it.
Speaker 1:I really do think so. I didn't watch the movie until after I read the book and I thought they did a very, very well done. It was very close to the book. You know, of course, like the book is always has a lot, of, a lot more detail and they have to kind of condense it to a movie, and I thought it was fantastic. What did your wife Sarah think of Anne Hathaway's portrayal of her?
Speaker 2:Well, I still remember the day we found out that Anne Hathaway was going to play my wife. In fact, I came home that day and told her my wife is not a big movie person, and so when she heard that she said, well, who's Anne Hathaway? And my sons, who were in their 20s, were standing there. And I still remember this because my sons are saying, mom, you know, think about this. This dad's getting played by the Hulk and you're going to be played by Catwoman. And so you know that's. That was one of the few times I had impressed by my 20 year old sons. So yeah, that was an interesting day.
Speaker 1:That is very hard to do is impress your children, that's for sure.
Speaker 2:You know it was fantastic. Anne Hathaway and Mark actually came out and came to our house, you know, followed us around. The filming was done at our offices in Cincinnati, so they were here for several months and you know just, both of them were incredible and did a fantastic job.
Speaker 1:Wow. So where can people find you and find your book?
Speaker 2:I am at still at the Taft Law Firm, again, 35 years. You can find me online at taftlawcom. I'm on Facebook, I'm on LinkedIn. I'm trying to figure out Instagram my kids are helping me with that kind of stuff Twitter, or what is it now? X, I guess. And the book is available through most major booksellers Amazon, those places so, yeah, should be able to find it.
Speaker 1:So, before I let you go, as a thank you for all of our guests, we sent a donation on their behalf to a charity of their choice. You chose Less Cancer Pioneers of Cancer Prevention as your charity. So tell me, you know just a little bit about that.
Speaker 2:It's a fantastic organization. I'm actually on their board. They are an organization that was formed to really try to help emphasize the need to prevent cancer versus, you know, simply trying to treat everything. So I've been working with them for a number of years trying to help that organization. They sponsor things like a cancer prevention day in DC each year. Truly an amazing group that does incredible work. So each year, for those that are interested, they do an annual bike ride up in Michigan. People can help either by joining in the bike ride or sponsoring folks to help them raise funds. So really a fantastic group.
Speaker 1:Wow, so we'll make sure to have that in the show notes so everybody can look over that organization and participate, volunteer or donate, and I want to thank you again for coming on Before I let you go. Is there anything that we haven't covered that you think someone should know?
Speaker 2:I don't think so, other than I, you know.
Speaker 2:I really hope that when people take a step back and look at this story of PFAS forever chemicals you know it can be a little overwhelming.
Speaker 2:You know to talk about global contamination, stuff that's in everybody's blood and babies being born pre-polluted. But, you know, I think it's also an encouraging story because what you see when you look at the history here is the ability of individuals somebody like Mr Tennant or Mr Kiger, you know be able to stand up, speak out and say you know, hey, this may be the way we've always done it, or I may have this massive corporation on the other side, or we may be up against the whole US legal system and the regulatory system, but those things can be changed. And, yeah, it's taken us a long time. It's taken us a long time, right, but we are seeing changes like I never thought we'd see. The laws are changing not only here in the United States but worldwide, all because of the ability of folks like Mr Tennant and others in communities now all across the planet, you know, that are standing up, speaking out and demanding that things change for the better, and it's working out. And demanding that things change for the better and it's working.
Speaker 1:Well, you've done so much to help so many people in the community, so thank you so much again for coming on, and I want to thank everybody for tuning in to another episode of the Truman Charities Podcast. I have been doing this podcast for a little over four years and I have to say this is in my top five favorite podcast interviews. It was. I learned so much, and I'm sure you did too. If you'd like to support our podcast, please make sure to rate and review our podcast. Scroll down, hit those five stars and write a short review on why you enjoy listening to this podcast.
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