CreditHub Presents Cashflow Re-Imagined
CreditHub Presents Cashflow Re-Imagined
Your Landlord’s Worst Nightmare: You Becoming The Landlord
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Most business owners assume buying commercial real estate requires 25-30% down and perfect credit. The SBA 504 program says otherwise—10% down, 25-year fixed rates, and no lien on your home.
In this episode, I talk with Kirk from TMC Financing about how the program actually works, who it's designed for (hint: not just big companies), and why the SBA views building ownership as job creation. We get into the qualification process, why your tax returns matter more than your FICO score, and how businesses that have been renting for years are often better candidates than they realize.
Recorded in 2022—rates have moved since then, but the strategy of converting rent into equity hasn't changed.
Setting The Stage: SBA Basics
SPEAKER_01sitting here today with uh wealth of knowledge and we're here this today discussing SBA and all things that you either may or may not know and things that you may hopefully come to learn that will help you in your decision making, right, in terms of what programs may be best for your business. Um sitting today with Kirk from TMC financing and he's one of our senior executives and I wanted to have him kind of come into the hub if you will so that we can kind of pull the veils off some things, you know, demystify are the terms you kind of hear often, but I wanted us to have some straight talk, right? Because I know a lot of people have some apprehension or maybe even confuse some of the SBA programs by the name. Right. So I wanted to have Kurt here with me. And I also before you even begin to kind of dive into the context of the conversation I wanted to find out a little bit about you and this passionate world we live in in business.
SPEAKER_00What brought you into it and what kind of drives you yeah yeah good question well great to meet you and very excited to spend some time with you today. A little background I'm the executive vice president at TMC Financing. I've been with TMC for just over 11 years. Before that I worked for a variety of banks I worked at Fargo US Bank a couple community banks First Republic bank so I have a pretty good banking knowledge before I joined TMC Financing. I've always been really centered on the business banking working with small businesses and probably over the last 20 years really dedicated to SBA lending and SBA lending is a wide variety of lending options and what our company does, our company is what's called a certified development company or CDC for short. And the CDC works on one particular loan program called SBA 504. So we can get into details of that and I can touch upon some of the other SBA programs, but I'm not an expert in the other SBA programs or SBA has a wide variety of what ways to help small businesses. Our company just builds one particular product it's a great product that's what TMC financing is and that's who I am.
SPEAKER_01Wonderful and thank you for for specifying that because at least for my audience a lot of times we may get confusion because there's so many SBA programs that exist right and obviously two new ones that are in particular that I think are now getting more you know notoriety right but these programs that we're talking about 504 specifically have been around. Can you speak to I don't necessarily want to say origins but how 504 it started yeah started or stands out on its own.
What A CDC Does And 504’s Purpose
SPEAKER_00So SBA 504 program started in the early 80s and it was and it is a job creation program. So different types of SBA programs and services have different targets. The SBA 504 program is targeted to help businesses maintain their employees and more importantly grow their employees and create jobs so that the communities have good paying jobs that support their families and in that way the whole country does better. So how do we create jobs with this program? The SBA 504 program is a combination of financing with four different partners we have the small business applicant we have a bank Wells Fargo be it community bank any private bank or credit union we have the CDC which TMC is and then we have the actual SBA. So I can get into details of that later and how those all kind of function and work. But the idea of job creation is if a business is able to own their building they're going to be a more successful business long term. They're going to not have to worry about landlord raising the rent. They're not going to have to worry about the landlord you know evicting them and making them move to a different location especially important with some retail restaurants and other retail businesses. But it's important for all businesses to be able to control their own destiny, know what their payments can be and have the security of being being somewhere for long term. And the SBA feels and it's been proven that if a business does solidify its occupancy cost, it's going to be able to be a more successful business. It's going to have more cash on hand to hire more employees that's going to be around for a longer period of time. So if we can get business owners to own their own building it helps create and retain jobs.
SPEAKER_01Now given the current landscape especially social media right and we talk about a lot of online business online sales and you know pivoting from brick and mortar with all that information that's out there there's still room for brick and mortar in a lot of areas can you speak to some of the businesses that benefit the most from owning their own building right and obviously you know we know a lot of them collectively but what are some of those industries that identify the best?
Why Owning Your Building Creates Jobs
SPEAKER_00Well our number one industry are professionals such as doctors, lawyers, accountants, dentists, medical professionals anyone in that professional office space is our number one category. However, our probably number one target is manufacturers because manufacturers have a lot of jobs and they create jobs. So manufacturers gets a lot of attention in the United States because again because of the job creation and the job aspects of it but it covers a wide variety of manufacturers. A big one out here where we are is food manufacturers. So you know the guy that makes the sausage the guy that makes the tortillas that you buy at Costco or you know the cakes at Whole Foods all of those the manufacturing of that food needs space. So manufacturers it could be just a widget too it could just be you know in Silicon Valley they they make a park for Tesla. So there's there's a lot of different manufacturers that benefit from owning their own business. Contractors buying a yard space buying an old building where they have an office but they just have plenty of room to store their their trucks and equipment and inventory. So it really is amazing how many different types of businesses we are able to help. Online businesses that's a growing segment but those online businesses still need a warehouse they need somewhere to store their stuff and it's amazing how many businesses would benefit from owning their space.
SPEAKER_01Wonderful and I couldn't have said it better. One of the absolute things that attract the meeting to the 504 opportunity as well as the all too often now what I am noticing is that you always hear these unique scenarios. I'm sure if you're like me you probably here have heard all the scenarios in the world right and that they're trying to figure out how to fit themselves into the program. What are some of the things you would think or you would suggest rather if someone was preparing, right? If they were looking to do somewhat of a checkoff in terms of does this program work for me or more importantly do I have the criteria to qualify for the program. So I know a lot of hesitation comes in with the qualifications. However there's an attractiveness with the way the program is designed for end user right like it was perfectly designed like you said for job creation and design for the entrepreneur spirit in all accounts at least the way I see it.
SPEAKER_00Yep absolutely so let me just touch upon the two biggest benefits of the program are that 10% of the project so the project is usually defined as just a purchase price but you could add sometimes things to the the purchase price such as improvements or some equipment. But for the most part the the project amount is is the purchase price the ability to finance 90% of that with only 10% down payment from the client is probably the biggest single factor of why the program is successful. And then number two the rates we can get into rates a little more detailed but there are two loans and the loan that is provided by the SBA is a fixed rate 25 year fixed rate currently less than 3% and those two factors leveraging up 90% and getting a fixed rate for 25 years less than 3% are the two single biggest factors of why this program is is super successful and why many business owners want it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah I'm trying to remember your question though your or your I was going to have a point what's your comment there well I think you hit it right there and I don't even want to touch that as a matter of fact I want to probably take a couple steps back and even because I think I mentioned earlier when talking about some of the confusion with some of the other SBA programs and when talking with clients they have some of this confusion too right is there because I had this one a direct question a client asks if I have EIDL, if I've done PPP, am I no longer a candidate for 504?
Who Benefits Most From 504
SPEAKER_00Okay, yeah but I remember now you're kind of asking about the forms and am I going to be able to get qualified. So I can say first there is a step to get pre-qualified. We have a variety of items that we would need it shouldn't take an applicant more than 15 30 minutes to complete what's needed as long as they're somewhat organized. If they're not if they're disorganized it might take longer but if they're somewhat organized the pre-qualification process is is pretty straightforward and we can turn that answer around within probably about two business days once we receive the information. But to answer your question specifically about PPP and EIDL, no. If somebody has either of those two loan programs, that's no problem we need to identify and we need to kind of factor in what those loan payments might be and how it could affect cash flow, but it it doesn't disqualify an applicant in any way.
SPEAKER_01Perfect. And let's see I've also encountered questions if someone has already an existing SBA that's not a PVP or EIDL, maybe they have a 7A and they want to refinance out or they like the attractiveness of the 504 can they maneuver out of one of the SBA into a new SBA?
SPEAKER_00We now can it's pretty exciting for us what we're super super excited about the ability to now have the ability to refinance some existing 7A's and existing 504s into a new SBA 504 structure. There are some limits depending on how much is outstanding and how much would stay outstanding in either SBA 7A or 504 but for the vast majority of people that they don't hit those limits. And especially if you're refinancing from one to another you're basically keeping the the SBA balances about the same. So therefore you're not going to be increasing and that should be fine too. And that's new right very new yep very new so we could have a segment on refinancing in general because there's a wide variety of different ways to use the SBA 504 to refinance a variety of different types of loans. It's slowly over the last five years gotten easier and easier. The SBA has opened the door more and more to have the ability to refinance into an SBA 504. It used to be that the 504 is really just for purchase transactions, especially now with the latest changes the ability to refinance from an SBA 7A loan into a 504 is it's a game changer. It's going to be really big for many businesses that are let me take a step back. The 7A program is a great program. It has a wide variety of business uses sometimes it's you're able to get approved with an SBA 7A loan or you might not be able to get approved with the SBA 504 loan program. And it gets the business owner the ability to buy that building. And so it is a great loan program. But oftentimes it's an adjustable rate loan and it's tied to Prime rates are fairly low right now, but very likely everybody you know rate prime rate is going to go up and when those rates start to go up the monthly payments are going to start to go up and and business owners are going to have to either charge more for their services or just make less money. And so if they can lock in with these low rates that we have now into a fixed product it's going to be really beneficial to them, which we now can.
SPEAKER_01I'm glad you you brought up rates because I know sometimes you always you may have someone on one side of the coin on rates and someone on the other side of the coin on whether or not rates may either change or or go in the opposite direction of what they're trending to is there a better time of the year a season or is it I guess maybe a better way of asking does the timing matter and qualify for Spa 504 or is it whenever the person meets those qualifications? Is it because I know some people look at the trending markets before they ever even approach do you recommend that strategy or no I I would I I mean the rates do change our rate loosely tracks the 10 year treasury.
The Big Advantages: 10% Down And Fixed Rate
SPEAKER_00So if you see the 10 year treasury rate going up or down our rate is going to go portionally or thereabouts. But if I was a business owner and even if the rate was two or three percent higher than it is now that's not to me the important factor and say it's super low. So it is time to do it now. But it's really the ability to get into the building and get that building price set not as much as you want to maximize any lowest rate you can but really the important thing is buying the building so you can stabilize your your business and your occupancy costs.
SPEAKER_01So now let's talk about you know let's say we're in the door we know what we want to do as a as a client we know we want file before we we're professional we've already decided okay this is the program for us so if we're now you know we're reaching out to TNC and we're now wanting to go through the qualification process what are some of the things that we can do to I don't want to say increase our chances but is there anything that that looks better or what are those some of those criteria that we can pay attention to right what are some of the things you would pay attention to if you were stuck if if it's let's say if it's six to nine months out, pay attention to your accounting making sure that your books are in order and you have your accurate financial statements if you use QuickBooks make sure it's it's up to date with the sales and and how the entry of the accounting is being done.
SPEAKER_00And when you have your taxes done you can legally put in a lot of expenses and therefore have less profit and not pay as much taxes and a lot of business owners take advantage of really trying to not show profit so that they don't pay taxes. Again legally it's totally fine and okay to do but the tax return is what we use in our financial review. If somebody's showing more profit then that is better profit or better cash flow for us. We look at the last year's tax return most closely when we do our financial review and if there's losses or if if there's just no profit it's harder for us to get that applicant approved. And so if somebody is is one that kind of plays around with your your tax returns in that way, you might want to consider you know talking to your accountant and making sure that there's some more profit in there so that so that you can get your loan approved.
SPEAKER_01Makes sense. So definitely paying high close attention here that guys on your PL and your taxes right how much you're actually bringing in and recording you can record as many expenses as you want but it may not be into your benefit. So glad you said that yeah so many entrepreneurs right starting off we know what we know right or we know enough to get by right but there's levels and you're touching all the high points there because there's a difference between qualifying for you know other programs and SBA and it's not and based on what we're knowing or what we're understanding SBA is the ideal because the alternatives may be hard money right and not to say that that's bad but when you have an opportunity for 10% I mean you can't beat that as long as you prepare. So when we talk about preparation is there anything you would want to speak to anyone who has an existing 504 as well and maybe some of the things that they can do like if they're maybe preparing for refinance or maybe they're outgrowing their existing loan as well for those that are already in it, right? Anything that you would because like say we often do we get a chance to get an actual expert who's actually processed.
SPEAKER_00Yeah well I don't know if there's a whole lot more they can do to prepare. However maybe you could review your loan documents and you know make sure that you understand when your rate might adjust what it's tied to is this loan that I have now you know a good loan long term or is it something that I should look to refinance. Even loans that were done five or six years ago in the SBA 504 program, which is this great program, rates were higher five or six years ago and the bank rate might even be higher than the SBA rate. So just a good comprehensive review of your loan and what your long-term goals are, I I think is is is an important exercise to do regardless of if you actually apply or not but knowing what you have and the risks of the changes is important.
PPP, EIDL, And Refinancing Options
SPEAKER_01So what about when we talk about cash flow right because we know and we can talk about credit and I probably do want to ask you some questions about credit in general but when we talk about cash flows, right, because we know that that matters a lot how they've done it because is it corresponding to what they're trying to buy? Is there a certain numeric number or is it in perspective to the program itself right because we know we have minimums what's the SPA travel for minimum right and maybe what that cash flow lease will look like because would you suggest if you can qualify for a smaller amount to at least maybe begin that process you know system if you will yeah our pre-qualification is free there's no charge and we start with an I mean it's helpful to start with a number and maybe it can kind of tie to you know back into what the rent is.
SPEAKER_00So if somebody's paying five thousand dollars a month in rent then you know that might be about a million dollar purchase price or somewhere in that ballpark. So we start with a number of hey I'm looking at a building maybe around a million dollars if we get into it and do the pre-qualification we can either come back to them and say oh yeah you might even get one and a half maybe two million dollars if you find a building in that range or we can come back to them and say hey look you know a million dollars it's a bit of a stretch you know you might be more in the$7000 range and you know maybe look for buildings see if there's any fits in that range. So you don't get tied you don't get locked into just because you apply for a million doesn't mean you can't go up and doesn't mean we can't go down. We just look at the ratio and then it really is it's not I mean FICO score is important but unlike home lending or some other types of lending products it's really individualized. We look at those tax returns we look at your personal obligations and and how it all relates because it's unique for these business owners mean that they all have their own individual things going on.
SPEAKER_01Wonderful no that makes sense and I guess I'll also ask you a little bit about some of the some of the area right because you guys TMC work specifically in the West Coast area and obviously you know from a regional standpoint there are certain businesses that you guys see often right or maybe even certain industries that you specify in because at least from my experience right we're more of a platform that the aids you but you specify right can you speak to CDCs that actually specify versus generalize and the benefits of working with a company that specifies?
SPEAKER_00So to be specific our company our CDC is able to to lend in California Arizona and most all of Nevada we can also follow our clients so that if your existing client have TMC and they you want to buy a building in Texas we can finance that one. However there are 200 CDCs across the country we all have the exact same rates we all have exact same fees we all pretty much go to the same credit committee if you will as is the Sacramento Loan Processing Center where these loans get decisioned by the SBA. So in general we're uniform in many ways across the country different CDCs have different approaches about how they want to to conduct their business. We take an approach we want to help all businesses we don't and I'm sure every CDC wants to help all businesses but but some are limited and if you're a smaller CDC you have to pay attention to specific caps in an industry. There are many CDCs that are smaller and they've kind of reached their cap on hospitalities like we could do loans for hotels and motels and things of that nature but you can only have so much of your outstanding portfolio be in one particular industry. And many CDCs have kind of capped out can't do any more hotel loans because we have too many on our books. We're a big enough CDC where we've diversified enough and we don't have those caps. So I think that's kind of along with the lines of your question.
SPEAKER_01No no no that's perfect exactly and that's what I wanted my audience to know that that from a capacity standpoint you guys can handle not only the volume but you can handle the expertise because you guys specify in the 504 of course but you also specialize in that area. So you there are common trends that you guys see often so for all of my Californian for all of my Nevada clients please look out for for TMC because we're gonna be sharing information with them. We're actually going to put together kind of a mini guide to kind of help you prepare before reaching out as well so those are some of the things we wanted to make sure that you guys knew. Kurt, is there anything that you would want anyone who is on the fence right maybe they're on the fence and they're trying to decide whether or not they're gonna get started this year or next year. You know, what would you say to that business owner?
SPEAKER_00I'd suggest get qualified at least let us go through the the process and give you feedback with what we see because we might identify something that uh that takes you six months to resolve or you didn't even know was an issue and it is i'm trying to think of some things like let's say somebody had uh uh was on probation for something well you need to be off of probation before you can apply or before you get approved what else you have to be a US citizen you have to or a legal permanent resident trying to think of other things that were or just cash flow in general your credit score let's say your your credit is is really you have some issues well it might take you six nine months to kind of clear that up so having us give you the feedback of what the issues might be could give you that time and so applying and getting pre-qualified or at least giving feedback now I think is really smart to do.
SPEAKER_01Agree and I think that data of having that information is is is key right whether it is the information you wanted to hear or the information you needed here right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah and then and then you know then you have the information and and you can make good decisions in the future. And just to touch on it you might have contacts at other CDCs and other states. If you do need some ideas of other CDCs TMC can give you some names of other CDCs too 100%.
Timing, Rates, And Strategy
SPEAKER_01No I I value the relationship we're building here I want it to be a longstanding relationship as well. I love what you guys are doing there. I love the transparency everyone that I've spoken with from the team all the way down to actually the end user has had nothing but great things to say about TMC. Well that's great. So no that's uh legitimate for real let's see here I don't want to keep you but I wanted to I guess talk about oh my gosh you've been in the industry for how over how many years? What was that number? I'd have to give you the map but 25ish probably 25 years and at least I heard I remember hearing three to four banks obviously you were TMC for a reason. What are some of let's say you know because horror stories right what's you know maybe something that we don't always hear right any scenarios where you know it looked like a great deal looked like a great opportunity and then maybe for lack of preparation or lack of due diligence maybe on the end users part that it didn't come to fruition and maybe some of those things that we can we can talk about there. And then obviously in terms of something on the opposite side I'd love to hear you know some outstanding success stories where we're able to you know save something that could have gone horribly wrong too, right? And yeah I just love to hear from someone from you who has so much experience.
How To Prep Financials And Taxes
SPEAKER_00Yeah so on the horrible side I mean the thing that comes to my mind the horrible side is I sometimes read in the papers of of a business that gets shut down because the landlord picked them out and didn't renew the lease. And especially I see it a lot in San Francisco where you know prices are getting expensive and the landlord wants to put in housing or put in some other institutions there. And so then that let's say that restaurant that's been there for a hundred years has to shut down because they're getting moving on and so individual deals have horror stories. I mean there are times we get to the end hour and you find out something that's known and the deal blows up. It's rare really it's uncommon but it does happen and there are horror stories. But to me the bigger horror story is are those businesses that didn't take advantage of the program and didn't fix their occupancy cost and have to shut down the business. On the positive side though, the best thing about this job is working with such a wide variety of business owners and big loans are great. We have clients that buy you know 10, 12, 13 million dollar buildings and have three different SBA loans outstanding. They have like 12, 13 million dollars of SBA loans outstanding. These are really big businesses that are doing well and it's kind of fun to work on some of those big businesses, but the impact to the smaller businesses is really where you get so much your heart just kind of warms because you're making such a big impact on their business and all of their employees let's just say it's a million dollar purchase and for California that's on the on the low side but the the impact to those businesses and and to see the relief or the the joy when they get their building that's the success story to me.
SPEAKER_01I hear that I hear that I even go back and kind of you know I check on them right whether it be a Google search or get a chance to reach out.
SPEAKER_00Or you drive in your hometown and you go I did that building I did that building it's fun and and at TMC we try to support our our our clients and so we have a list of all the clients we've helped and we try to to go to our communities and and use those businesses.
SPEAKER_01It's a fun industry to be in no I I wholeheartedly agree I wholeheartedly and you get a chance to see you see your impact immediately. Like you said the job creation I mean in the market that we're in right now I mean the jobs that are being created right those those are that's one thing but just to have the options but I love the idea of creating more opportunity you know even with swepping spells because sometimes a lot of our clients they may not be able to qualify for SBA so we're helping them graduate you know to that to that opportunity and to know that at the end of that opportunity that they're going to be able to you know not only achieve it you know throughout the way but you know there's a pinnacle right where you can actually can own your building you can be your own landlord right you're right the the 504 is kind of the pinnacle of the SBA lending but you start off with micro lending then you get to maybe a community advantage loan and then you get to maybe a 7A line there's there's kind of steps.
SPEAKER_00I mean you don't have to go through individual steps but the 504 is is kind of like the to me the end goal like hey I got it I got my business going I got my building now and things let's talk to let's talk to that a little bit right just because I mean at the end of the day right that building is an asset.
SPEAKER_01It is real estate it has its own value and now that's a part of their that's a part of their portfolio and a part of their budget that's a part of their evaluation now.
SPEAKER_00Again I'm California and I know this happens in other other states but the wealth that I've seen in just let's say the last 10 years of being at TMC the increase of equity that these business owners have now they bought their their million dollar building put their hundred thousand dollars was in there so those buildings are three million dollars now I mean they they really have gone up so much I mean and any of it even if they only go up to a million and a half or two million that's their money you know that's the that that's theirs forever. And so and and they could sell the business and they or they could close the business or but they get to keep that building.
SPEAKER_01At the end of the day a program that allows you to be able to create assets. I mean right you have a lot of programs that'll dangle the debt right in front of you but this is a true asset building program. And that's what I wanted my um my people to uh to understand the most about it. This is a program that you want to qualify for this is the program that you want to graduate to and it's a long tail right we're talking about 25 30 years we're talking about realistic interest rates right the reason interest rates and long term and you also get the strategy right you also get the consultation to go along with you. It's not like you guys are once you once we fund the loan we can no longer communicate right you'll help us with servicing it you'll help us with maneuvering in and out of it as well so you get a long-term partner to go along with it as well.
SPEAKER_00TMC we service all of our own loans and so as long as you have your your SB alone with us you deal only with us for questions or or any type of servicing needs you have on the loan.
SPEAKER_01So last question people would kill me if I didn't ask just because like I say we're being credit hub right you know they're all into how to prepare right we want to gain knowledge for the weekend when they be here. So I guess in closing if we were to identify maybe some of the key traits right we would identify and say we would absolutely not want to have any credit challenges. We're looking at what 680s 700s and above I mean yeah that that's ideal.
Pre‑Qual Ranges, Cash Flow, And Credit
SPEAKER_00We actually don't use FICO I mean we pull a credit report we see it but would we actually just look at the delinquencies and kind of understand are there still outstanding collection accounts are there still outstanding past due amounts so that's where we focus more on the credit and if if somebody has a 550 FICO score then they're gonna have a whole bunch of those types of things.
SPEAKER_01So yeah not really credit score driven more behavior driven right looking at behavior vision yeah and then also again it's the cash flow cash flow is number one.
SPEAKER_00So we add back the rent. So if they've been paying$2,000 a month in rent for the last five years well and they're not gonna they're gonna you know move from their rented building to this new owner owner occupied building then we add that$2,000 back into their cash flow.
SPEAKER_01So wow they're already in it is actually better that they've already kind of been leasing on our or just been a tenant so how far back can you go?
SPEAKER_00So they've been there for years? The vast majority of our our clients have been renting for five 10 years and they just they're just like I never got a building never thought I could buy a building I thought I had to have 30% to put down you know it just wasn't in my and then when they learn that it's only 10% down and that their rent their new mortgage payment is going to be probably about where their rent payment has been and for for 10% down I can just turn my my rent payment into a mortgage payment it's eye opening. So but we do almost all of our transactions or clients have been renting for the last three five 10 years. We don't do very many startups startups are hard for us to get qualified for so it's it's really more businesses that have been have a track record and been renting somewhere.
SPEAKER_01That makes sense now does it matter if the applicant is a homeowner or not or I would say the majority are but there's no we don't put a lien on a home we we don't it's always that collateral piece right and that's the differentiator can you explain that differentiation why collateral isn't always the end all in in the 504?
SPEAKER_00When the 504 we we just look at the building as our main source of collateral and the SBA is is okay with 90% on just that building there are other programs that the 7A program what will oftentimes put a lien on on a house they're doing a little bit more risky deals and you know to make them more comfortable they often have to do a lien on the house but the 504 program doesn't do that.
SPEAKER_01So yeah it's a great vehicle so you hear it here guys so score isn't the most important but definitely there cash flow is probably at the pinnacle of where you want to be collateral you're actually going to be acquiring the collateral in the purchase so there you go and equity all the beginning or at the buy right that's a different as well so thank you so much Kurt for for helping us understand 504 a little bit more and uh hopefully have more conversations with you. And like I said guys I want to get you some best practices to you so we'll have that to you guys and then a free some free information for you guys at the end of the segment.
SPEAKER_00Well very nice talking to you Benji and happy to do it again anytime.
SPEAKER_01Thank you so much. Okay bye bye