The Readirect Podcast
Shifting the conversation back to books. Hosted by Abigail Freshley and Emily Rojas.
The Readirect Podcast
Book Club: Sister Wife by Christine Brown Woolley
Today, we're doing a deep dive into Christine Brown Woolley's memoir, Sister Wife. As longtime fans of TLC's Sister Wives, we were SEATED for this tell-all from Christine. Read along or listen in for our TLDR version of this explosive book.
Plus recent read from Emily, Beartown by Fredrick Backman
Follow us on Instagram and Bluesky at @readirectpodcast, and if you're loving the show, please leave us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Sharing our show with a friend is by far the best way to grow our community of book-loving nerds!
Welcome to the Redirect Podcast. My name is Abigail Freshley and I'm Emily.
Speaker 2:Rojas. The Redirect Podcast is the show where we shift the conversation back to books. We discuss themes from some of our favorite books and how those themes show up in our real lived experiences.
Speaker 1:On today's episode we are book clubbing the Salacious Tell-All Memoir Sister Wife by Christine.
Speaker 2:Brown. But first, before we get to that, we would love for you to support the show in a few simple ways. If you are loving it First, you can go on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Leave us a five star review and let us know that you love the show.
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Speaker 2:When did you think of that? Just now, or were you literally?
Speaker 1:just now.
Speaker 2:That amazing.
Speaker 1:Thank you, if you know you know, if you know, you know, honestly, this episode has maybe been 15 years coming. Yeah, I mean, you and I were you and I were seated in your grandparents. Uh, beach condo. Yeah, for season one of this show.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I remember the show being like promoted and um, like when it premiered, watching it, yeah, definitely, like everything she was saying, I'm like oh, I saw that I mean.
Speaker 2:I definitely there was a point where I stopped watching, yes, where I was like, oh, I'm getting new information, but the early seasons, yes yeah, I think I checked out and would like maybe see stuff on tiktok, um, and then I've been watching again since, like this, all has happened with Christine leaving the family, I've checked in a little bit more. But those early seasons, yeah, like I remember being locked in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and now I think they're on their very last season, which I'm like I don't even know what you guys are still filming, I know, but we'll get into it.
Speaker 2:So yeah, as always, episodes. So yeah, we're longtime fans. As always, with our book club episodes.
Speaker 1:This is going to be rife with spoilers. We're going to talk about everything in the book in detail. This is a great thing to listen to if you aren't in the book, but you don't really want to read it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like that's common and hey, that's what we're here for.
Speaker 1:So there will be plenty of spoilers. Second disclaimer neither one of us read the book with our eyes. We both listened to the audiobook, which is narrated by the author, yeah, and so we don't have a text to reference for direct quotes. So you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, some of this are probably paraphrasing, but I tried my best when I put quotes that I wanted to quote to like get it as close to what she actually said. But yeah, no promises that it's word for word exact. So, yeah, I can't wait, let's talk about it. What were your overall impressions? How about that? Or, just off the bat, what did you expect, maybe going in? And then how did you feel when you were in it?
Speaker 1:I tried to go in. I don't think I had that many expectations going in. I was pleased overall. I felt like I did get to see things from her point of view and like I got new information. What I will say is the TLC of it all was definitely present. So you and I also book clubbed, counting the cost by Jill Duggar, another TLC reality show family memoir.
Speaker 1:Yes, and at that point she no longer had any contractual obligation to TLC anymore. So she was really upfront about the dynamic and the manipulation and the abuse of a TV network filming her family, the invasiveness, all that stuff. The last season of Sister Wives is currently still airing and so there is definitely still a connection between Christine and the network and so I felt like a lot of that was sanitized and TLC was really only referenced in like a super positive light. Her personal decisions to continue exposing her family and her children to this toxic reality TV show environment, yeah, and so I think that was like a blind spot for me, but otherwise I thought it was really good.
Speaker 2:Totally. I feel similarly. I feel like I actually expected less from this, because and I think she talks a lot about this I mean, you know this is related to the tlc thing. I think she talks about this in a little, a little bit of ways of like when you watch sister but sister wives, it was pretty clear almost from the beginning that things were not great, like like there were so many moments, especially and I would say maybe the first season, like you know, they were just trying to talk about themselves and that was genuine. But like everything that happened with Mary, like the catfish thing, like their relationship or lack thereof, like it was always clear, like things that Robin was like the favorite and whatever, like not to dive into, like the spoiled content of the book, but that was, but that was very glazed over for a long time.
Speaker 2:I feel like it's only been recent seasons where it's been like, okay, we're just going to be honest about what's been going on, and so I was kind of expecting a similar thing of like you know, I'm not going to be forthcoming, I'm going to make you think I'm going to reveal something and then I'm really not. But I do feel like there's a lot of things. I was like like, oh my god, I can't believe she told us that. So, um, I'm excited to talk about that. So yeah, I was. But I agree with what you said. I feel like there's a lot.
Speaker 1:I was expecting not to spoil the end, but I was expecting by the end, for her to come and be like especially, uh, vis-a-vis garrison, to think like maybe this wasn't the best way to raise my children and that never, which makes sense, I guess, like you said, or she's still contractually, can't say that, so it, but it just makes me feel a little bit a hair off of authentic yeah yeah, um, I think also one thing that is explicitly named is the relationship to money, the opacity in the family around money over the years and her need for her own financial independence and freedom. Sure, and continuing the show like if you read between the lines, continuing the show is a part of making that real, for her sure, so it's like I get that too, especially given that she was never in a legal marriage yeah, so tough.
Speaker 1:Okay, we gotta dive in yeah should we just start in chronological order? Like, yeah, I think that's the best way to do it.
Speaker 2:So let's talk pre Cody. What I have here is that's like the first three chapters. So how the book was divided up was there was different sections. It was like daughter, sister, wife and then woman. I think was the last one. I started losing track. So the daughter section. I have the first three chapters as being pre Cody. So I'd love to start there with, like, her upbringing, her childhood, her family history, which is crazy. And this is when I texted you and said, wow, I really don't know anything about Mormon history. She talked a lot about the history of Mormons that I had no idea okay, yes, um, uh.
Speaker 1:I'm actually thinking right now. What is the name of that graphic novel I read?
Speaker 2:oh no no oh oh, the joseph smith and the mormons or something, joseph smith and the mormons yeah, I actually did, and I'm begging you to read this graphic novel.
Speaker 1:It's so much freaking tea. It's unbelievable, and I would send you my copy, but I already gave it to someone else. It's crazy tea and it's like. You're like, oh, I'm going to read this weird nonfiction book, Okay.
Speaker 2:Mormon history is crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it was. And the guy who wrote this book is he is like the great-great-grandson of Brigham Young or something like that. Yeah, Apparently so, is she kind of so? Okay, so essentially what she lays out, she lays out some Mormon history. Yeah, she talks about being from Utah and she briefly describes history of like a break in the Mormon church after the death of Joseph Smith and how the mainstream Mormon church, who had 40 wives, by the way learned that. Yeah, yeah, and so did Brigham Young.
Speaker 2:Yes, he had 56 yeah, yes, I have this in my notes with a lot of question marks. Okay, go continue.
Speaker 1:So after like. At some point there was a break in the church and the main Mormon church of Latter-day Saints and this fundamentalist Mormon church broke off, and that is a branch of Mormonism that her family is from. They're specifically involved in a sect of Mormonism called Apostolic United Brethren. This is different than like the Warren Jeffs, like compound Mormon polygamists.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of her description about the history of this church super whitewashed, for sure, super sanitized. She talked about how great of an advocate her grandfather was, but basically what you need to know is she comes from polygamist Mormon royalty. Yes, yes. Which explains a lot. What you need to know is she comes from polygamous mormon royalty, yes, yes, which explains her father, her grandfather, her great uncles, everybody.
Speaker 2:They're all like really, really big yes, in this fundamentalist mormon sect, yes, um, so, from my notes, her grandfather married 16 women and, according to her, he was considered a great healer, very well loved in the community. And then this was like very contentious though, because, uh, you know, this was when the split was, you know, raw. It was raw and so, uh, he was being threatened and like the authorities and like random people were threatening him, so he ran off and didn't see the kids for years, which I was like, okay, like how great a guy was he, you know.
Speaker 1:And she described it as like this really devastating thing when the family was broken up, whatever.
Speaker 2:And then her grandfather was killed. Because there was some people in the community who thought that some sins they thought this was such a sin to be married to multiple women, and that some sins can only be absolved by death. And that was their reasoning. And so some guy, whose name I didn't write down, um talked a woman to into being the one to actually shoot and kill him, and he was murdered and the guy didn't end up going to prison and the woman did, if I remember.
Speaker 1:Yeah and yeah and I also had a note here. I went to book about the intersection of mormonism and naturopathy because she described her grandfather as being this great healer air quotes and chiropractor, yes, you know, and many times throughout the book she describes alternative medicine and this, like her faith, and it and it reminded me. What did it remind you of? Does this remind you ringing any bells?
Speaker 2:educated by tara westover.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, yes because they're fundamentalist mormon too, kind of, yeah, and they don't believe in antibiotics and all this stuff. So I thought I was like this is coming up a lot, and then it's reminding me of her like flash forward to today she's in, like she's been in multiple pyramid schemes, yeah, which which including kind of like a pseudoscience, one right now called plexus, which is kind of like a grifty supplement. But anyways, that was my, one of my detours of this conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so. Yeah, that's her upbringing, and then her mother was part of a polygamous marriage and then ended up leaving her father, which basically served to make Christine significantly more religious and kind of break away from her mom for a really long period of time, where she felt like her mom was betraying her, like she was being selfish, she wasn't like she had raised her in this religion, and then her mom left the church, and so it was, uh, very fascinating that she describes in her childhood really kind of being in a closed community and always being afraid of being found out as a polygamist.
Speaker 1:Yes, and because of that she didn't really have a lot of relationships with people outside of her church and her family, which plays a really big role in her adulthood and really sets the stage for why she spent 30 years in a disappointing marriage.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:But she wasn't exposed to much. And when she was exposed to something outside of her niche, it was like the church of Latter-day Saints, yeah, right, so like it wasn't. Like it's like public school in Utah, right, it's like it's like it's, all you were ever exposed to was like Anglicans, yeah, and then you were exposed to episcopals right, it's like, not like, not that different. You know it's not gonna be like, oh wow I'm really seeing the world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally yeah. So, um, yeah, and I think something she talks a lot about, and it starts here, is like polygamy being illegal um, really pushes people further away from like being able to seek any kind of help if there is something bad going on, because her whole life she's like you can't even talk, you can't even mention that you have like these other moms, you can't mention that your dad like has all these kids. You can't talk about your dad. He can't come to your school events, he can't like be a part of your life and if, like, her dad was great, and if he wasn't, though, like if a kid's being abused but you're telling them, well, if you report this, your dad's gonna get taken away from and you'll never get to see him again, you'll have to go to jail. Like that's, you know, right, not gonna incentivize people to get help if they need it. So it's.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I understand the complicated uh version of that I had a lot of feelings during this part of the book because yeah I one. I? I also related to like throwing yourself into hyper religiosity as a reaction to like fear yeah of the outside world, basically so related to that. Um, I also thought it was interesting she comes around so spoiler. In the book she admits she wasn't a cult, but in the first part of the book she says if I was in a cult I loved it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, I wrote that down a quote. Was I in a cult? If I was, I'm glad of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was awesome Like she loved it yeah. And that's the confusing thing about cults, yeah, or growing up in cultish environments or even just like closed communities, I guess, like being surrounded by people all the time who believe in what you believe all the time and thinking that you have the secret key to heaven and other people don't like, yeah, well, and I get it too. I related to it at some level.
Speaker 2:yeah yeah, I get to like for her, like, okay, I was in a cult, but would I give that up to not have these like half siblings that are really important to me. And then, as she's older, her sister wife, you know, her other moms, the kids that she then helped raise, like I understand, saying like I wouldn't get rid of them, you know. So I completely understand where she's coming from and I think, yeah, it's like stuff we talk about like, uh, growing up the way we did of like yeah, like there was negative things, but also like I wouldn't trade, that we're friends, or so many of the things I've been through my life. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Like and you also. I mean, we're talking about this off the, off the mic, yeah, like, even like this week, but you can't actually extricate yourself. Yeah, fully, because the fabric of who you are is made up by the communities you were raised in so you can't even say like I'm not part of that anymore.
Speaker 2:It's like yeah well, it's just a part of you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like it's like sorry sister, like it's a part of you, like you always will be connected to that, for better or worse yeah so, and I did like her attitude about it.
Speaker 2:I think, um, yeah, her attitude about a lot of stuff of like I mean, well, again we're skipping ahead to the end. But towards the very end she said like I don't want to make every memory a bad memory like yeah, robin's wedding day was a beautiful memory and it was so happy for me. And or like these holidays we spent together, or like all these little moments, and just because it ended so badly, that doesn't take away. Like those were so really happy times and I think that's a good way to look at you know your life.
Speaker 1:So one thing before we move on to the next note is that her mom really served as an example for her, because her mom did not subscribe to a lot of the more rigid parts, yeah, of their sect. Like she was like I don't know, I don't think this is the only right religion. I think this is the right religion for us, but you know, we just have to love people. Yeah, or she ultimately was like one of christine's sunday school teachers, was like you're going to hell, or yeah or like god is gonna come back, yeah, yeah yeah, the world's gonna end any minute.
Speaker 1:And her mom was like, hey, can you maybe chill out on that?
Speaker 2:I need her to go to school. You know right. Yeah, we're gonna have to live like there's gonna be more than just another year here on earth, and yeah and that's a cold tactic too it. Yeah, it's like you know.
Speaker 1:But her mom like ironically, you know, she did a good job, Her ghostwriter did a good job of marrying all this together, of like she resented her mom for leaving her dad and leaving the faith yeah, it made her more hyper religious, yeah, and her mom also, like, stayed in her life and loved her through her hyper religiosity and her sham marriage and all that stuff, yeah, and then christine actually ended up being her, yeah, and then her mom was still there for her and I thought that was really beautiful.
Speaker 2:That's actually really, really nice yeah, I really like the relationship her mom's, her relationship to her mom, came up a lot, um, throughout every stage in this and and it was so nice to see, like the payoff of that, like you said, like when she and then when she ended up leaving cody, her mom was really there for her and like telling her what she needed to do and supporting her through that because she had been through it, and so I thought that was that was nice.
Speaker 1:So, okay now, so she becomes a young woman. She becomes a young woman and she goes to college actually she goes to college. I think it's like a community call, like she's sitting near home.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but she does that and she's like I want to get married yes, and I wrote cody brown entered our church like a storm, like oh done, this to me felt like. When Donald Trump showed up in Rado, it was like no, this guy's here, I know she's living her life.
Speaker 1:Okay, here's, I have a, I have a note, please tell me. So she's interested, like. So, first of all, she describes she knew Cody and Mary. Yes, so she knew Cody independently. Then he got married to Mary and she knew them for a few years before she got married. Yes To Cody, because he ended up marrying Janelle and then he married her. Yes, so she describes that Cody has actually converted to their Apostolic United Brethren Church from mainstream LDS. Yes, and this was reminding me back when there was the conclave earlier this year and everybody on tiktok, like the catholics which I'm not part of them, but it was so interesting to see them come out and talk about their issues yeah, like here for you. Um, they were like there is a difference between cradle catholic and converted catholic. Oh, cradle catholic is a cultural catholic, maybe more converted Catholic.
Speaker 1:Oh, cradle Catholic is a cultural Catholic, sure, maybe more open minded, whatever. Sure, converted Catholic is like JD Vance, yeah, or like Harrison Buck, right, right, that makes sense. Okay, I think this is similar, sure, because she was like cradle FLDS. Yeah, she was kind of open minded. She didn't think that her religion was the only religion she was more centered on, like love and family and the ideals and he took this like super hard right turn into fundamentalist Mormonism and was like Easter's pagan yeah, we can't celebrate it.
Speaker 2:We have to do Shabbat. Yeah, yeah, that is a red flag to me. I'm sorry. I'm sorry if this is you out there. This was people we went to college with, but if you're celebrating shabbat, as a christian who was not raised jewish, I really do think that's a red flag about and I think you need to consider what you're doing I really want you to consider like the culturally appropriative yeah, it's tough, but that is a thing in all. It's not just cody, um, that is a thing.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, but he was, he was uh, intense, right, and so she describes sorry, go ahead, go ahead I thought it was so interesting from here for a good chunk of the book, how, like, honestly, pre-robin and we'll get to robin how different cody was because she talks about him and even mary like she talks about him and mary like she talks about him and Mary as being like the ma and pa I don't know if she said ma and pa or I just wrote shorthand, but uh, she talks about them being like the parents, like the of the young people and taking people on wilderness trips and him being fun and like funny and adventurous and like positive and how different that is from like the Cody you get at the end.
Speaker 2:Um, and that like to see her and I think christine's perspective in particular so interesting because she saw him marry two women before her and what she saw of their marriage was so positive that she still felt like, yeah, I want to marry this guy, like she saw what he was like as a husband and for that to change so drastically. Um, I mean, this keeps going when they have kids, like for the beginning part of them having kids we'll talk about that, whatever, but I just thought this was really interesting, this part in particular of them coming into the church and how him and mary were and like how everybody just loved them and how crazy it is how marriages can just like rot and die and be like this bitter thing if you don't you know, treat them right. So I thought that was really interesting. Anyways, yeah, what were you saying?
Speaker 1:Um, I don't even know. You just made a great point, though, sorry.
Speaker 2:Um.
Speaker 1:Oh, she describes how like dating works in polygamy.
Speaker 2:So which is important later, yeah, First wife.
Speaker 1:This is, it's just like normal. Yeah, Normal dating marriage, you just do normal dating marriage. And also she kind of I don't know. I think from what she described it seemed like within their faith it's like you don't have to be polygamist but if you do you'll get to the celestial kingdom. Yeah, Like it's better to be polygamist. You'll get extra heaven. Yeah, but it's not like a mandate, but if you do it will be better. Yeah, so the first wife is normal.
Speaker 1:The second wife, the husband, is not supposed to date someone else, really, because they're married yeah he's married, and so the, the woman, has to show her interest via, probably like a male family member, yeah, and then the church elders, the leaders, have to bless and they give their permission for them to get to know each other and, basically, court to get married Right. And so when this comes about with Christine, she had known them for a while At this point. Cody was married to Mary andary and janelle janelle, my queen I my queen, janelle, whenever you want to write a book.
Speaker 2:I did not buy this one. I will buy janelle's book, baby girl.
Speaker 1:I love you. Please, janelle, we love you yeah she's by far the best wife oh yeah um, anyways, but so anyways, she does that and cody's like he consents to doing it yeah.
Speaker 2:So she basically tells her dad, like I want to date cody. He's like cool, they start dating and she's, and she's like basically nothing changed because she had already been really good friends with cody and mary and janelle and like spent a lot of time with them anyways, and so like they just kept doing that and she was really emphatic that she did not want to kiss before marriage.
Speaker 1:Um, everything was extremely chased, very chased. At this point. You know many, many listeners have heard of mormon underwear, but in the flds church there's even more intense mormon underwear that are like very long right. So, yeah, everything is very whatever, yeah, buttoned up, it's not like secret lives, no. So then he like proposes to her kind of, and she's like well, that wasn't, he was like I guess I should ask you if you'll marry me.
Speaker 2:And that's what he said. And she's like, up to this point, it was just so sad because, up to this point, she's like, painted herself as someone who, like, loves fairy tales and like, wants to be a princess and loves like so romantic, like wants to fall in love.
Speaker 2:And then he's like and she loved cody, she loved him. But she's like, yeah, I thought the only way to love basically was to like find a friend and like over time you would just develop this, which obviously, again, that is something that happens, but they never, like ever really got to a place where he really loved her. It felt like um, and she said at the time it's all I thought I needed, but she was expecting something like better. Um, she said no girl wants a story like that. Like he just literally is like hey, I guess you know.
Speaker 1:So he like reproposes yeah and it's, but she doesn't get a ring. She gets, uh well, she gets a cloddering, cloddering, but no diamond, no diamond that this is very critical, very, very, very critical later okay, so, um, so they get married. She describes they have, she had, they have like a horrible first kiss at their wedding like so awkward yeah, she described him having a thousand yard stare.
Speaker 2:And then we have to talk about the honeymoon yes, I have so many all caps notes in this section, um, but first I want to say too, something really important about their wedding was she had talked a lot about growing up as like kind of like a middle child with a lot of siblings, becoming very much a mediator in her family and how that continued. And she was like she, I this isn't a direct quote, probably, obviously but she said I was so wrapped up in my piety that I couldn't relax and feel special in the day. I didn't want to take anything away from any other wife, um, and she's just trying to like make everyone else comfortable. And then she has this like horrible, awkward wedding because of it. So then, yeah, she transitions and says the original draft did not include any information about the wedding night, but her friends like told her you have to talk about it. And thank you, god to those friends, thank you.
Speaker 1:Because this is what I do. I mean I get it. I'm sure that the wedding was awkward, because it feels awkward to kiss somebody in front of their other wives Of their wives.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like that's crazy. For the first time, okay, kissing someone for their wives awkward. Kissing someone for the first time awkward. Getting married and kissing in front of everyone awkward. And then you're combining all those things together and he's like looking at you like he's not even happy, like he's not even excited, like he's just like dead staring at you, not smiling. That's a horrible, that's a nightmare.
Speaker 1:After the wedding. So they have like a secret ceremony that unfortunately her mom couldn't go to because she left the church. So they have the reception and then they're getting ready to go and she's like, so where are we going? And he's like, I don't know, I just thought we'd kind of go with it.
Speaker 2:I hate this guy, I really hate this guy. I hate this fucking guy. Like he sucks, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So that happened. So then they go to some hotel. Yeah, and it was bad. It was horrible and yeah, she was in like a lot of pain and she also describes he wants her to keep her clothes on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, awful, and I thought this was.
Speaker 1:this broke my heart so much it was crushing.
Speaker 2:It was really crushing, because she said, like she's like this, like very, at this point, extremely chaste, purity, purity minded, reserved, like hasn't done anything with anyone. And she said, like I trusted him because he has been married to two other women, that he would like know what he's doing and he would take care of me. And I thought like that he was experienced enough that he wouldn't hurt me. And then for him to like basically not care at all, like she's like crying and he's like okay, anyways, like it made me sick because it's like that's not right. You shouldn't have had to go through that. And it was actually really upsetting to read.
Speaker 1:And also like again, it's like's like he knew what he was doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which makes it worse.
Speaker 1:That's what makes it worse, it's not even like oh, we're two teenagers and we don't know if, like Right, Like, we're figuring it out.
Speaker 2:He knows he has two wives.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, janelle is pregnant.
Speaker 2:Yes, okay, at this time she's great with child Concrete, like, yeah, it was really messed up, dude, and it made me really sad. It made me really sad, but I am glad she included this. I think, yeah, I think, like you, you got to talk about it and yeah, cody cody sucked more as time went on, but he also sucked from the beginning.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean, like he also wasn't great, yeah, so sorry, yes so then marriage, yes, and then they're married. So then, all of a sudden, she enters the family. First of all, they're broke. As a joke, okay, they live in wyoming he's his job. He's giving mentally ill father because he, like repeatedly changes jobs I mean like, for obvious reasons yeah, but they're like constantly moving and he's constantly changing jobs yeah, so his first job is selling educational materials related to the church, which sounds awful, sounds crazy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and she also finds out at this point that basically, mary and janelle hate each other and nobody's like clued her into this and now they're like they're like man, this is my thought all the whole time.
Speaker 2:Reading about all these extra wives. It's to me in polygamy, obviously, never having lived in myself, it feels like, um, finding a new sister wife is kind of like when you go look at a new house that you could move to and you're like my life would be so much better if I lived here, like I would get up earlier, I would work out every day. You like convince yourself that your life's going to change just because you move. That's what it's like with the sister wives and they were like basically bringing Christine in because they're like, well, she is a good, you know, peacemaker and me and Mary hate each other. Like let's bring her in, like maybe she'll straighten things out for us and we're not going to tell her that and we're going to like with that weight, without her consent or knowledge, or like fully understanding what she's getting into.
Speaker 1:That's yeah, and to be clear, uh, mary has always been the issue um, so uh, yeah, yeah mary was a big issue so she becomes a mediator between them. Yes, uh, that sucks she. You know what one thing I respect about christine is she did not really air out everyone else's business. No, no she. I mean she said, okay, janelle and Mary had problems if they write a book.
Speaker 2:They can tell you about what they were.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, like and she was like I'm not gonna spill their tea and I respected that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she talked about it, how it impacted her um yes, she talked about the walls being thin so she could hear again like things don't get better between her and Cody physically. But she can also compounding that she can hear him with his other wives and like realize that oh, that's not like what we're, what we've got going on. And same thing, he would like insist I wrote this on he that she either wear garments or lingerie when they were doing stuff. Um, like, those are the two options, which is crazy and also she.
Speaker 1:Basically, he basically required her to give him massages every day, even though he was with her. Yeah but every third day, I guess, but refused to ever give her a massage it's crazy.
Speaker 2:And the massage that's not even a euphemism, just genuinely. She was giving back massage and she was like hey, could I get one of those?
Speaker 1:and he's like well, no and like that was the only way he could like get it up.
Speaker 2:Essentially he's sicko um, yeah, and she said, uh, I had been so confident when I got married, but that part of my personality started to erode that first year I lost myself. That made me really sad. Um, and then, yeah, she and Janelle has her baby. She's Logan, yeah right.
Speaker 1:So then there's kids in the family. One thing Christine really loves is being a mom and she loves helping to mother the other wives children yeah, um, and then Leon comes along, and then she has her first baby, which is Aspen, and she describes Cody as being a really good dad in the early days. Yeah, and really supportive partner during birth and then, like it wasn't all bad.
Speaker 2:She talked about too, which made me really sad Her mom, like she didn't want her mom being there for the birth, but then it was like really, really difficult, and so they ended up calling her mom and she's like helping through the phone and she just talks about like now I can imagine that that was extremely difficult for my mom to like not be there but then to be on the phone and oh, it's just. Yeah, I'm so glad they mended their relationship at the end, but it was tough because they get it anyways.
Speaker 1:yeah, they moved a lot and some of them are doing like part-time jobs and she actually ends up getting a job, basically being like a marketing person for her church and trying to raise awareness. This is where I start getting a little sticky, okay, I have to admit so. She frequently. So her job at this time is that she's working with a group that helps to advocate for safe polygamy laws.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and like draw a really big difference between what is like consenting adults Right being in polygamy versus child abuse. Yeah, which I appreciate. Yeah, we can all appreciate. But she commonly refers to this as a civil rights issue and draws comparisons to other social movements at the time. Sure, read like gay marriage, yeah, okay, yeah, which I had a little bit of a hard time with because she, in her journey in life, she eventually does become an ally, she becomes very accepting of their queer children and whatever, but at the time she was leveraging the marriage equality movement to help support her sect of Mormonism to have like, basically uphold this like patriarchal subculture, and that was a little tough.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree, that was like there it's. Yeah, there's certain things where you're like I do think this is how I thought reading it. I think this is great. She wrote the book now. I think obviously people want to hear from her now, like the season's about to air, like this timing makes a lot of sense. I think maybe 10 years from now the book would be different, because I think she's still like there are things she's still it's the same thing with. I felt reading um jill duggar's book where I'm like okay, yeah, you've come a long way, but also there's things that I hope one day you will continue to grow in. But you're not there yet and you're not seeing this clearly still, or you're not like writing about it in a way that's clear, because there's a way to say this of like hey, yeah, we were. We emphatically did not want gay people, but we were using their movement and like their language.
Speaker 1:She was a hair shy ourselves. Yeah, she was a hair shy of actually saying that, and I think if she had just said that, like hey look I realized on the I realize that this is hypocritical, that we were leveraging this marriage equality movement, but we did not support that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it wasn't quite there, yeah.
Speaker 1:But she didn't do necessarily a lot of like reflection on her own personal choices, I would say, which is one thing that was disappointing about this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1:I agree.
Speaker 2:Which?
Speaker 2:yeah, it continues yeah, I agree, I agree, which, yeah, continuous, and what I thought reading this of she seemed, uh, I don't know, I think it was around this, this part in the book, but there's some allegations she kind of glazed over of like, um, you know, abuse of children in her church or in her like religious group, and that's at the point where her family does end up leaving the church and kind of like being out on their own, which was covered in the show or whatever. And it was like she was still so genuinely surprised and it's like no, like of course that was happening. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Like you're in a high control, closed community where men are in church like of course, at the same time, you know she's in a high control, closed community where men are in charge yeah, right so like of course she's stuck there, right. But it's so interesting because she describes her work doing the advocacy as one of the first times she's actually exposed to outside points of view. Yes, and that was crazy. Like that was your outside point of view, like you were closed, closed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Like this was closed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and she's, and I wrote a note because at that point she hadn't called it a cult yet. Yeah, so I wrote it's not a cult. But as soon as you were exposed to outside ideas, it fell apart. The whole thing fell apart.
Speaker 2:It's a cult. Whatever Dives, it's a call um at this point too also. Uh, there's like a 19 year old girl that they're like low-key courting to be the fourth wife, and then her dad sits cody down and it says I don't know, because her dad is the church leader yes. So he's like, yeah, we want to take her in. And he said I don't think you're caring for the wives you already have because they were so poor yeah, I'm like okay, I do respect that I do respect that, but also like hello, can this 19 year old girl come forward?
Speaker 2:she's probably still. She's probably like a fifth wife out there somewhere, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, please come forward, but come forward on the pod but okay, so this is a good segue, because they're living in lehigh utah. Uh, they live in like a house. If you guys watched the first season of Sister Wives, you're familiar with the house.
Speaker 2:Yes, I can still picture it in my mind.
Speaker 1:Oh, vividly.
Speaker 2:Like Logan making breakfast for all the kids. Yes, you know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1:But there was a lot of Mary slander here because it was like they weren't. She never shamed Mary for having one kid, because obviously that was not what mary wanted, whatever, yeah, but she did draw the obvious like, hey, you had to have the apartment or whatever between me and janelle's places, right, but you didn't want the kids running through there because they had all these breakables yeah and so they were.
Speaker 2:She was shading mary quite a bit um and then, like mary always needing like the biggest space, right yeah, I also like I do think I don't know if it's, I think it's gwendoline who's since come forward and said mary was like very, she's like hasn't said quite abusive, I don't think, but has said like she wasn't kind and um, I want to say don't quote me on that, but I do think I know one of the kids has at least come forward and said some things about again christine and janelle hive stand up yeah, so.
Speaker 2:So this is yeah. When their relationship falls apart, though yeah, so like things are tough.
Speaker 1:Oh, and then her relationship with mary falls apart, because there's this moment where mary like it was stupid. You can read the book if you want to know exactly what happened? But Mary snaps at one of her kids for like not a good reason yeah. And then she's like don't ever talk to my kids again.
Speaker 2:Yes, don't ever, like whatever and then they kind of have this falling out, yeah, but again it's like okay, well, I never knew that, like I knew things were kind of strained in the family. But I mean, this is about the time the show starts and it's like, oh, I thought they all like kind of got along, you know, but right, not at all.
Speaker 1:So like there's some fracturing. Whatever christine is like overall satisfied with her relationship with cody. She thinks he's a good dad, she likes living and she likes living in proximity to her sister wives.
Speaker 2:She likes raising the kids together.
Speaker 1:It's being there yeah, she has lots of good memories about christmases and like working with the other moms, to like take care of the kids, homeschooling them.
Speaker 2:So this is the part, too, where, sorry, he does. This is the part where she talks about the massages. And he told her like, basically, I move away from pain and toward pleasure. I'm not smart, but I am honest. And she was like, wait, am I the pain? Because she would be like, well, why aren, why aren't we like doing, having like a physical marriage, or like why aren't you here with me as much? And that's what he told her. So I I thought that was horrible. So, yeah, things are not good. They're fine, but they're like she's happy. Yeah, her marriage isn't good. I think the marriage aren't good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so, through her work doing advocacy for their church, that's how she is recognized and their family is given the opportunity to do a pilot for TLC. Yes, this is also a time where they're down bad financially, yes, so it's kind of like this perfect storm and they see this opportunity as an opportunity to spread the good word about their religion and also to like dispel misconceptions about, like consenting adult polygamy, sure, and whatever. And but also they have been living in secret in utah, because at this point, bigamy is a felony, and so this is like a big decision, because now it's like they're coming out as polygamists on a public stage show style whatever.
Speaker 2:And she talks a lot about that experience in New York with, like people in public, people at restaurants and then people in the audience, and how people were like open-minded and accepting, and I thought, okay, this actually makes a lot of sense why they agreed to do the show, not just for financial reasons but like they have right before getting the opportunity to pitch to TLC, they have this experience where people are actually really interested and like respectful and curious.
Speaker 2:And at the time also, I think this was like a very new wave of having these kinds of reality shows. And I don't think there was the like reckoning of now where I do think anyone who signs up to have their kids on a reality show at this point you have to know that or put some as influence Like you are, you have to know that or puts them as influencers like you are, you have to know what you're doing to your children's psyche. But, like at the time, I think maybe that's fair, they didn't necessarily realize. I wish she had come around to reckoning to it more, but I I did think like, oh, this actually does make a lot of sense why they end up agreeing, agreeing to do tlc, because I don't know. At first I'm like this doesn't make any sense. They're so scared of outside world, why did they agree to do this? And then I don't know.
Speaker 1:This put it into context for me I think also part of the context that is like implicit or like obvious later is that cody is a narcissist, yeah, and he was the decision maker. Yes, so he basically wanted to do it, that is true scene was like oh, because he would also be fresh. He would also be like christine I would love you if you would be more lovable, so she's trying to be like, earn his love all the time, all the time, and so she's.
Speaker 1:You know he wants to do it because he like and they get their first paycheck from the show and like every like the kids don't have, like shoes or coats, but he buys a lexus convertible yeah you know she can't get enough money for groceries for the kids.
Speaker 2:But he can buy a convertible right, so and then enter dun, dun dun sobbing robin.
Speaker 1:So robin is brought into the family or she's introduced to the family via mary, which makes so much makes so much sense, yeah so robin oh god, robin had was. She had a previous marriage. She had two kids. She was in a monogamous. She was raised in polygamy, but she was in a monogamous marriage that failed. She gets brought into family. They're having like a brief courtship and this is all happening in season one of sister wives and it's difficult for christine because it becomes obvious that cody does not love her really yeah yeah, in comparison to the way he felt about robin, yeah, and the boundaries that she felt were crossed during their courtship.
Speaker 1:Um, and maybe this is a good time to to re-bring up the cloddering oh my god, yes.
Speaker 2:So basically she had been asking like I think okay, tell me if I misconstrued any of this but my understanding was that, I remember, is that she had been given the clodder ring, not necessarily even as an engagement ring, he had just given it to her. And then he was like yeah, that's there you go, there's your wedding ring. And so she had been asking him for like years, like can you please put a diamond in my clod, because Mary and Janelle have little tiny diamonds in theirs, just like a chip.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she was not asking for anything crazy, just a little chip diamond, so she was like, oh, it'd be nice if I could have one too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and he was always like, oh, he can't afford it.
Speaker 2:He did buy the Lexus convertible, let me remind you, which definitely cost more than whatever tiny little diamond he would have bought.
Speaker 1:I mean Like she was not asking for much A chip. Okay, in her ring Then he goes and he buys Robin like a full engagement ring, like a full diamond ring, a full diamond ring.
Speaker 2:They're not even married yet. No, yeah.
Speaker 1:He sucks. It was gutting, yes, then she. So she gets so angry, she takes the ring and she chucks it into the forest.
Speaker 2:I love that. I love her for that. I mean same. Honestly, I would do the same thing same he like kisses robin before they're married.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's like a whole thing, dude, um and then to be and also like, uh, robin was the one to pursue like, she was very aggressively pursuing cody. Um, and something we didn't talk about earlier was there had been an, even another wife that they almost added, and that woman, like, was always being very upfront with cody and not making any like headway with the with the sister wives. And christine basically tells that woman off in a spectacular fashion over the phone of like you, you thought you should go through him, but you should have gone through us, don't call him anymore. And so then Robin is like doing the same thing of like, yeah, just not caring at all. And yeah, it's like clear that he's falling in love with her, and that's something they did talk about on the show. I don't remember that interview, but she has this moment where she like realizes, oh, like you're giddy to go see her and you've never acted like that around me, like not even a little bit, and at this point christine is greatly pregnant yeah, which is just not helping.
Speaker 1:No, it's not helping because also, like robin is wearing her special garments, but she's kind of styling stuff in like a cuter way. She's wearing high heels she wasn't wearing her garments. She wasn't, no, because she wasn't married yet. Oh right, you get them when you're married.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so she was wearing like cute little low-cut stuff and I mean like tighter jeans, yeah, whatever she could also, they did a photo shoot with all the wives and cody. The first thing cody said was to ask janelle, why aren't you wearing any makeup? I just want you to know that you listening to this Like, not even like. Oh, thank you. He sucks though.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so there's all that. And then at the same time he's like skipping out on spending time with his existing families and his children and wives to get to spend time with Robin and her kids, and at first you know they all, or Christine, passes this off as like well, he's just trying to get to know her, he's trying to earn the kids trust, all stuff, but it never gets better. It never gets better, it gets worse.
Speaker 2:As time goes by. Yeah, it made me really sad. She describes paid in asking why Robin's kids get KFC all the time and I'm just like it seems like it's just a silly thing. But when you're a little kid I thing, but when you're a little kid, I don't know like that really matters. Like your little dining out, like she was like, oh for that. Our kids, like we didn't eat out ever, so kfc was like a really big tree and he's like why do robin's kids get it all the time? Like they're always going with dad to kfc and we never do. And it's like kids are so perceptive like they notice from that, like the impact you've had on your children who I? I mean, I don't think he cares. He has genuinely at this point no relationship with almost any of the kids that aren't Robins. But like it just made me so sad of like their noticing. She also describes that he wouldn't come to tuck them in at night.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when she, like, was working a second job and then, like, when she specifically asked for help, yeah.
Speaker 2:He was like oh, you help, yeah. He's like, oh, you need to ask your sister wives, or you can ask aspen, who it's like yeah, like, yeah, a child. Yeah, like she's. She's like working another job to pay off her debts, which is like insane that. He's like you know he doesn't seem bothered that she's doing that for the family and she's like can you just tuck them in at night like that's literally all I'm asking you for? And he says no, and at this point they still all live in the same house like it's not know.
Speaker 1:And at this point they still all live in the same house, like it's not, it's not like a track, and they and they move robin to like, um, you know, a block away or something like that, so they can see her, whatever. It's so dumb so no one thing I do appreciate, though, is that christina at this point doesn't have.
Speaker 2:She never makes this robin's fault no, she makes it cody's fault, and it was yeah I feel like she was really careful not to do like oh well, that bitch like yeah you know, and it was, yeah, cody's still the one married, she's not, and so it is
Speaker 1:on him anyways yeah, and she has this hope that, like, oh, maybe bringing robin into the family will change things or whatever, she does love the wedding. Robin does a nice thing of like getting a dress that matches the other sister wife's dresses so that they could have a family photo shoot, whatever. But the at this point, the direct comparisons between cody's relationship with christine and between Cody's relationship with Christine and Cody's relationship with Robin are so hard to overlook. So he plans this big, elaborate honeymoon with Robin 11 days, 11 days, great. He is so excited to see her on the wedding day. He's beaming, he's happy, um, he's always spending time with them, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And then, shortly after they're married, christine goes into labor yes, and Cody leaves the hospital to go get their like doctor's bag or their like hospital bag.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:And the cameras catch him going to like say hi to Robin and her kids.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:And give Robin a kiss, yes, mm-hmm While she was in labor. Yeah, that's all you need to. I mean, that's just like that's the pattern that continues throughout.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Um, then they moved to Las Vegas which is the iconic neighborhood, whether they each have their own house. And that was a whole drama, with Mary needing like the the whole house like the yeah, whatever. But they all got their own houses. And at this point it becomes like aggressively apparent because, uh, they can see cody's car in robin's driveway, like they all live in the same cul-de-sac.
Speaker 2:And they can see him there and like yeah um, and she said my kids have told me that, starting in las vegas, cody started to be an absent dad yep, so sad like this is when she joins her first mlm. Yeah and then she goes in a business.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm part of. I'm part of a. Uh what?
Speaker 2:is she like a?
Speaker 1:clothing business.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah also just a note she gave birth to truly. He only stayed with her for two days and then he was like, okay, you got it. And then when Robin gives birth to their first child, he stayed two weeks before the birth and two weeks after like uninterrupted, Didn't go see any other wives. It's like, yeah, it's just a direct comparison. It's a direct comparison, yeah, you don't care about me.
Speaker 1:Okay so then this is something truly devastating they, they, publish a book together where they are each interviewed by a writer. The writer compiles their stories independently and then the book comes out, and it's the first time they're seeing what the other people said which, by the way, terrible idea.
Speaker 2:Don't do that if you're gonna again again.
Speaker 1:We're skating over the tlc of it all and the producers instigating like that was not named but that was happening. Yeah it. Basically in the book cody is like I was disgusted by christine. I was never attracted to her.
Speaker 2:There was this incident where she ate chili cheese nachos and it like disgusted him.
Speaker 1:Then he doubles down in an interview with savannah guthrie, I think on the today show, uh-huh, and he said um, he's talking about how he was like he was never attracted to christine. And then you know that she asked you know, did that gross you out like the chili cheese nachos?
Speaker 2:and he said that would be an understatement and he basically said he's never been attracted to her yes, it was, yeah, it was said, like, basically that was the moment he stopped having any attraction to her and it never came back. And he married her anyways, this was before they were married. This was just like he was sick of it and she confronted him about it and talked about it.
Speaker 1:And he said I felt like I had to marry you because your family was polygamy royalty, which shows the narcissism of cody. And the way that she phrases it too is not like like how dare you keep me from someone who would love me? Like that was the thing you really did wrong. Like why did you propose to me?
Speaker 2:why did?
Speaker 2:you get married to me yeah, like you stole my life away. Yeah, yeah, because somebody would have loved me. Like that's stupid, you know. Like she's great, like you know what I mean, I. And like yeah, there's no, you could have just told her I'm not attracted to you, I don't like you, like that. And they could have just gone on being friends and none of this would have ever happened. And instead he just dragged her along and like for years and years and years before, robin like kept giving her hope, like things will get better, whatever, like if you do this, I'll be to you, and like all of that was just always going to be a lie. Yeah, and at this point she gets a little too probably intense for me on the like dieting and exercise talk.
Speaker 1:Oh, I wrote this too. She shares. She has like a whole half chapter or so about like her weight loss journey and gives horrible weight loss advice. Just skip it and don't read it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because to me, me I'm like, okay, the the end of it, I'm like I do actually understand what she's trying to say. Like she didn't take care of herself and she had lost all her confidence. And then she got to this point where she's like I want to be strong, you know, I want to, like, take care of myself better. I didn't need like, hey, did you know that you can cut calories by doing this, this and this and this? Like that was like I don't care, but um, but I do understand what she's trying to say.
Speaker 1:Maybe she is currently in an mlm, yes, where they sell supplements that help people.
Speaker 2:Quote, unquote, lose weight yes, yeah, so whatever it's just like but, just know she struggled, I think, a lot with her body image, um, and continues to struggle, but especially like after this book comes out and she's basically being called fat in like a way. That's like derogatory and like I am no longer attracted to you because she's still trying to get cody to love her yeah.
Speaker 1:So she's like well, maybe if I lose weight he will love me, um, and so that's what you need to know about that part and then when she does lose weight, she like basically asks him, like, do you like me better now, essentially, and he's like well, I would like you if you would be nice to your sister wives. Yeah, which means robin. Ie, robin, because robin has this whole vindictive thing where she's like victim complex, like she thinks everyone hates her, whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I will not be reading robin's book if it ever comes out. Oh hell, no, don't write a't write a book, robin. And she always like she, robin, like. She also realizes at this point like this is where her narrative about Robin switches because Robin will start confronting her about stuff that Cody, like she thought was private between her and Cody. So she says like hey, she stops giving Cody massages. And Robin's like, hey, well, why aren't you giving Cody massages anymore? And she's like, okay, like I thought I trusted him, I trusted him as my husband, not to like go talk to you about this and I trust you as my sister wife, to be like, hey, this isn't appropriate for us to be having this conversation, but you guys both brought my trust. I'm not gonna be your friend anymore. Basically, like we're done unbelievable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that sucks, it did suck, it really really sucked. And she also observes at this time that Janelle is kind of just vibing and like she has more independence and she's kind of doing her thing and she starts learning from that. Yeah, then, well, I was going to go to the Flagstaff move. Is there anything else from Vegas you want to share? She starts getting exposed to more people from the outside.
Speaker 2:That's what I was going to Like she starts getting exposed to more people from the outside. That's what I was going to say. She starts getting exposed to more people, she starts being more because Cody spending less time with her, she starts being more independent, and I thought there's a few things here I really briefly want to say. Is she really talks about losing her religion? First of all, I did not realize how little she continued.
Speaker 2:I thought she would say she was like still mormon and just wasn't part of like you know, fundamentalist anymore. But she's really like, hey, I think there's a bunch of religions like whatever, maybe there's an afterlife, maybe not. Um, but I really liked how she talked about it in a really positive way of like just becoming more open-minded and like for her, losing religion was a positive experience, which I don't think it is for everyone. I just thought that was really interesting, um, and part of that was um. I really liked how she described leon, who's mary's child, coming out, um, and also gwen gwen is her child, yeah who came out as bisexual, and she was like, oh, like I'm actually fine with this, like I didn't know how it would react and I'm really glad that I'm reacting fine, like this is great.
Speaker 1:She even said something really great that I loved. She's like. She said she was just first. She said I'm going to try and say the right thing, but also, can you teach me how to say this? So I sound as accepting as I feel yes.
Speaker 2:Which I thought was really nice.
Speaker 1:Nice, it's like that is such a great way to ask that. Yeah, Like I.
Speaker 2:Nice it's like that is such a great way to ask that, yeah, like I don't, I'm.
Speaker 1:This is new to me, I'm trying like I love you so much. Yeah, I don't want to say the wrong thing, but I actually I actually don't know. So, yeah, and it's not from a place I'm not accepting, help me sound as accepting as I feel on the inside, I think that's a great phrase. It's such a wonderful thing for a parent to say yeah, I mean that's just really great, yeah.
Speaker 2:So she seems like she overall, she seems like she has a really great relationship with all the kids and like she's a really good mom, and I think that really comes through, yeah.
Speaker 1:So she talks a lot about, like teenage parenting and she had another great thing. She talked about like she had this rule for herself that at any point, if a kid was like, hey, I want to talk to you about something, yeah, she would immediately stop everything she was doing, turn the stove off, whatever, and be like, okay, yeah, let's talk, and she would get eye level with them no matter how tall they were. Yeah, she was like oh, I don't ever want to be inaccessible to my kids. Yeah, I love that I know.
Speaker 2:Um. One thing I do want to talk about, though critically, before they move uh out of las vegas is truly going into kidney failure, and what happens here is, um, truly, uh is her youngest child. She gets really sick, and uh, while she's away, um what was she?
Speaker 1:on it. Was she on an mlm trip? Yeah, cruise, yeah, with mary, which is a whole. I don't even want to talk about that. Yeah, so she was in lula row yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So they go on this cruise and um truly's really sick and aspen's calling her like hey, she has this like fever, she's not getting better and she's like on a cruise, so like she can't come back. You know, like there's it's not like aspen is basically watching her by herself.
Speaker 2:Oh, she's the mother. I would love to read Aspen's book as well. All of the kids, actually, pretty much Any of you guys can read it. We'll read it. Anyways, she's like Cody, can you please go over there? Because like I'm not home and Trulie's really sick and she's been sick for days, like can you just go over there? And like it is not right that I don't care how old you are. If you're a minor child, you should not be in the position where you're responsible in a serious health situation for your sibling. Like that is crazy. When your other parent is right down the road, like right there, and he's like no, like my other kids need me. Basically.
Speaker 1:And then when she gets home robin, I need to tuck robin's kids into bed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so when she gets home, um, truly is like not doing well, takes her to the doctor. She's in kidney failure. The doctors are basically like she is like a old person on their deathbed with her kidney function right now. She ends up having to have a surgery, like they think she might have to do dialysis, all this stuff and cody's like not present for any of it. And this is like how this? Yeah, how do you keep going? How do you keep going with someone who not only has such disdain for you but for your like very young small child? Um, this made me really sick. So, anyways, that happens.
Speaker 1:And she also talks about her oxy addiction oh yeah, and then she gets hooked on oxy, um, which I'm like what I mean honestly.
Speaker 2:It makes sense and she was really transparent about yeah the slippery slope that is falling into addiction, and then her way she managed it and got out of it sorry, um, also really fast before they move, sorry, she uh, just a note mckeulty and tony mckeulty's her daughter and she marries this guy, tony, and she's like projecting a little. She's like, because they get, it happens pretty fast, like they're young and they get married really fast. And she's like are you doing the same thing that I'm doing with your dad? Like am I setting a bad example for you? And then they play this couple's game and she's like wait, mckelsey and tony know more about each other than I know about cody. After like decades of marriage or like any of these couples, like they've got they'll be all fine. And I thought that was really interesting of her being like okay, I realize now that I'm in a bad situation, but also that this isn't the same thing. You know, it's all starting to come together, yeah.
Speaker 1:Like it's the first crack.
Speaker 2:Yes, and then yeah she starts losing her faith, whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah so then Cody comes to the sister wives and is like I have this great idea. Well, no, he says. The Raiders are moving from Oakland to Las Vegas, and this is going to be are moving from Oakland to Las Vegas, which is crazy, and this is going to be what's going to turn into a din of iniquity, the crime, the traffic, and he starts freaking out and it's like babes you live in.
Speaker 2:Vegas.
Speaker 1:Las Vegas Sin City, yeah, classically, and so he's like we need to move.
Speaker 2:If you've never watched the show, though, please go watch the episodes where they leave las vegas honest to god, or watch clips, because he is like bringing a manic energy, like he's running around, he's going to kinko's and printing up like like boards with grass on it, like you. Literally.
Speaker 1:You have to watch this, and then they're all like in mary's living room or whatever, and they're like talking about, and he's like we should move to flagstaff. There's this property. So the sister wife's humor, oh my god. They go down and they actually fall in love with the property and janelle really loves it. Christine is like yeah, mother coyote, pass man.
Speaker 2:It's like a sleeper cell when you say that.
Speaker 1:So then so then Christine is like okay, maybe our lives would be better, it'd be more like when we were in Wyoming. Yeah, we'll have our own space. Whatever Blah, blah, blah they consent to doing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and at this point I'm like I do actually get it, because, sorry, because like, yeah, she's like, yeah, I love being around all the kids, but also we could. I don't want to keep facing robin's driveway every day. So, like, this is an ideal situation. We're going to build our own houses. It's a beautiful, it is a beautiful piece of land. Like like, we'll have our own space.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay then it comes out. Then it comes out that robin's oldest child has gotten into arizona university, university of Arizona in Flagstaff, or something like that, and will be enrolling in school and that was secretly the reason for the move all along.
Speaker 1:Yeah, mind you, several of the other children are currently enrolled in college in Las Vegas or live with family family member, live with their spouses or live independently in vegas and they are including the whole family and that was like veiled, like it was basically that sort of starts being a betrayal, because she's like oh so you guys plan this behind our backs you had this whole plan, yeah, and manipulated the rest of us to going along with it and also like why do y'all need to be in the same place? I just don't get it. Whatever, yeah, and she almost.
Speaker 2:This is where I'm like no, like you know interstellar um, because it's like, like, don't, don't go, because she, her and chanel almost stay. Like they have this conversation where they're like maybe we don't go, but they're like, no, the coyote pass thing is cool, and like we could all be together and like maybe, maybe things will get. Like. He's always dangling that in front of all of them. You see this in the show. I mean mary has her flaws, but you do see in the show with mary, every time she gets even remotely close to like leaving or doing anything, he like dangles in front of her, like maybe we'll do ivf when they were younger, like we'll do ivf so you can have another kid, or like if you do this, I'll come back and I'll move back in and like oh yeah, this is part of their reconciliation yeah and it's like no, he's never gonna do those things.
Speaker 1:He's never gonna do it, but literally it becomes more and more clear. He only sees his obligation to them as like I need to get into the celestial kingdom, like he's still like ruled by his religion and his belief, that like he can't leave these women or he won't go to heaven. But he does not love them. No, so they move to flagstaff, predictably.
Speaker 2:Things don't get better it's also a horrible situation. She doesn't talk enough about this. I don't think it's a show trying to build their houses. Yeah, like they're in this, like massive amount of debt, the money it's horrible, whatever.
Speaker 1:Like read the book if you want to know all the details of this yeah, one of the big things though that happens in flagstaff. Well, two big things. One, covid and cody has decided he's basically living with robin now and he comes up with all these insane rules about COVID, but he's also afraid of the vaccine, yeah. And then they have a nanny, which I don't know why. They have two full-time parents at home and a nanny. It doesn't make sense to me.
Speaker 2:So he can't go visit his kids because they won't quit their jobs, which are requiring them to come back in person after, like this is months. This is not like. This is march 2020. Yeah, this is post-vaccine. They have to go back to work, they need jobs, like they have to go to school, and so he can't go see his kids because of that. But he has a nanny who comes to their house every single day and she doesn't have to follow any of these rules and she ends up being the one that ends up giving kobe to the whole family. And it's like you were just making this up because you don't, you like during lockdown, realized I actually don't want to see any of my other kids or wives and I'm just going to make up as many insane roles as I can so they never get obsessing about kovid, yeah.
Speaker 1:And. And meanwhile, christine's daughter, isabel um, which, by the way, one thing I have to say about Christine she needs to learn how to use the letter I and E. Yeah, all of her children have dumb ass names yeah. Names with Ys that don't need to be there. Isabel starts with a Y, if you're wondering yeah.
Speaker 2:So anyways, isabel has a horrible scoliosis.
Speaker 1:She needs the surgery so bad they're trying to get her the special surgery. She's in like constant chronic pain, debilitating yeah, christine says we're gonna go stay with my sister on the east coast and quarantine for two weeks. Right, they're required to do that for surgery or whatever yes, we're going, whatever, we need you there and he won't go. And he won't go. And isabel is like, wow, really. And then in her surgery she wakes up no, didn't come. And she's like where's my daddy?
Speaker 2:that's the first thing. She said yeah. And then she calls him and she's like will you sing for me, dad?
Speaker 2:and he says I don't feel like it yeah oh my god, that made me so sad because it's like, like he is described for a lot of the time as being like a good father and having really good relationships with the kids, um, and like being fun and like playing with them, and so you know, like that is so jarring as a child to then be like now you don't even care about me because of this, these other kids, you do care about these other kids and how like unfair that is, how it's ruined the sibling relationships like robin's kids don't have any relationship with their siblings and like it just really was heartbreaking this, this story about isabel like I knew about him not going to the surgery that was covered in the show, but her waking up and asking for dad like that was so sad um and this is the nail in the coffin for christine, where she just decides you know what we're done and she doesn't actually have to get a divorce because she's and she doesn't believe in the faith anymore.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so basically this begins a year of her slowly extricating herself from him. Um, obviously divorce causes a lot of issues. She's the first wife to leave, but since then janelle and mary have also left him. Yeah and yeah, I thought it was so interesting.
Speaker 2:Um too, at this time where she decides to basically leave, she says her two strongest testimony she's ever okay. So they basically call like a god feeling, or like a feeling of something from god, as they call that a testimony. And so she has call like a god feeling or like a feeling of something from god, as they call that a testimony. And so she has this like testimony. That, she said, was her second strongest testimony. When she feels like robin should join the family. And then she says she has like another feeling of like I'm have to leave him. And then she said like maybe god was sending the same message both times, like maybe he was telling me that robin was cody's wife and also that I needed to leave him.
Speaker 2:And like I just thought that was like very generous, but also like yeah, maybe it was, maybe it was I'm glad for all this, so much sympathy for her, because what was she gonna do?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah and yeah. What was she gonna do? Their finances are all tangled up together, like. And at this point she does call her mom and her mom says, like you already know what it is you need to do. Their finances are all tangled up together. And at this point she does call her mom and her mom says you already know what it is you need to do, you have it within yourself. You just need to start doing it. Put your both feet on the ground and just do it.
Speaker 1:And at this point, isabel is a teenager. She's the last kid in, not Isabel Truly, she's like 12 or something. Yeah, she's the last kid in, not isabel, truly, truly, she's like 12 or something. Yeah, she's the last teenager in the house. So it's more simple. She ends up moving to utah. She's still coming back and forth to finish the thing. It's just like a whole thing to finish the show. Yeah, um, then she starts dating again and her talking about dating was so, like, honestly, kind of relatable again, like she was like I don't. Well, she didn't. She's never dated, ever.
Speaker 2:She doesn't know what to do, yeah and I.
Speaker 2:One thing I really thought was sweet and that I related to her was that she her husband now, david um has grew up in the same culture or around the same culture both of his sisters were polygamists yeah and so, and they left their husbands and they're not monogamous, and she now, and like she doesn't have to explain anything to him, yeah, yeah, and that's just so nice I thought that was really nice because she talks a lot about like she worked with a matchmaker for a while unsuccessful and she's like I don't want to like go back to lying, but also it's a lot to get into on the first date that I have like eight kids, like I'm formally polygamous and have this tv show and like all this stuff, and so then when she meets david, it's like he was, I think, at the same wedding she was at when she was like 14 and like he knew her grandpa and you know, like her grandpa is the one who taught her dad, his dad, how to deliver him when he was a baby, and like he knows all this stuff already and so she felt like safe with him and they were able to develop this relationship and it was really nice.
Speaker 1:I really liked that and he's like totally healing, helping her heal. And yeah, she joined another mlm and it's.
Speaker 2:She's in Utah, to be fair.
Speaker 1:Then she talks about, you know, finishing the show, having to go back and be around Cody and all this stuff, and you know her relationship with Janelle Still with me truly yeah.
Speaker 2:Her and Janelle are really good friends, shout out Janelle, please write your book Janelle.
Speaker 1:Janelle was like in her wedding yeah, which is really sweet, and In her wedding yeah, which is really sweet.
Speaker 2:And, janelle, I'm like girl, I hope you find happiness she has.
Speaker 1:Janelle owns a wildflower farm.
Speaker 2:Yeah, amazing, which is really sweet.
Speaker 1:But she then also talks about which I feel like the way the book went. It's like she wrote the book and then she had the tragedy in her family yeah, of Janelle's son taking his life, family yeah, of janelle's son taking his life, um, and so she talked about that and dealing with that grief and especially with a family that's kind of like disjointed and far apart.
Speaker 2:Now so yeah, that was, yeah, that was kind of the last, one of the last chapters, or at the very end.
Speaker 1:Um yeah, which was tough to read and then she kind of reflects on things and like what all of this has taught her and she's it seems like she's a really good point of view about, like you know yeah, I love.
Speaker 2:She said I would do it all of it again. Thank goodness that I don't have to. I thought that like sums up this book of like, yeah, like you see, yeah, whoever her ghostwriter is did a great job of showing like the journey and how it took all of these things, because she was. I mean, it's almost like she's coming back to the version of her you meet as a child, like before she, even because she talks about going to public school. Now she develops this list because she can't talk about her family and like how scared she is of the world, and then cody like degrades her down even more, but then by the end, like with david and with her independence and her um like healing journey, writing the book, you know, being free, she's like able to come back to that very, very early childhood version of herself that was happy and like romantic and confident and wanted to just like be loved, yeah, so and she also um, she talks about it.
Speaker 1:That was like so honest, I've never lived full-time with a man before. That was crazy. So honest, I've never lived full time with a man before that was crazy. I never thought about that. It's kind of weird like he's here all the time. You know she was married for three decades or whatever yeah overall happy about it. I hope Janelle writes a book and I hope that she can be more honest about.
Speaker 1:Well, I, first of all, I would love to know what life was like when she first came into the family as the first sister wife. Yeah, I would love to hear that from janelle and I would also, if possible, like to hear more about the tlct, because yeah tlc stays doing crazy stuff, so yeah, yeah. Any closing thoughts about the book?
Speaker 2:no, I think it was good. I think, um, if you are gonna read it, I really recommend the audiobook. I thought she does a really good job narrating it. Uh, it's nice to hear things in her voice and you know, uh. So, yeah, I would recommend, and it's not too long, like no, it's like an eight hour audiobook and so if you're listening it, as I was at like 1.5 times speed, it's really not that bad. So, yeah, I think it's worth reading and is it worth tuning into the show? No, watch the clips on tiktok, like I do, although I might watch the last season, you know just for the men, do you think they're gonna bring in a new wife?
Speaker 2:uh, no, no, I don't think robin has any real interest in that yeah, I think.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't know if she really does, but she always says, like I signed up to live I think that's fake.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think she means that. Yeah, we'll see. Uh, also, I want to shout out though I want to shout out to um christine, maybe you're a listener because she loves to read trashy Scottish romance novels. Oh, I know. And I want to shout out to her for that, because, like, we're psyched. Shout out for being so real about that yeah, Like that's not my personal brand of romance, but I do get it Honestly, Christine, you would probably love the show.
Speaker 2:You probably would, and you're welcome on any time. I always like Christine and I do specifically remember the episode when Leon came out to the family, how Christine was the one who really set the tone for how everyone else was reacting, and I think she was like the most welcoming one.
Speaker 1:She was like okay, well, mary was like she had a hard time, yeah, and so was Robin.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I just remember, I always like Christine, I always like to know, obviously, but that episode in particular always stands out to me as, like you could see, like she reacted so instantly and so positively that everyone else kind of had to fall in line and I respected that.
Speaker 1:She loves her kids. I mean, that is so clear, she loves her kids so much. And you know, I don't know how great the decision was to continue. I mean what choices she had. I think my one judgment of her is that why do you keep exposing your kids to this?
Speaker 2:But it's clear she loves them. Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, okay oh. Have you read any books?
Speaker 1:recently I read this one we only recorded like not that long ago, I know. I'm still I'm like 90% finished with the other book I want to talk to you about, but I really want to finish it all the way first.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's fair, that's fair, so great. Yeah, what about you? Okay, I did read a book. It's another Friedrich Bachman. I won't go on and on because we've already been recording for a while.
Speaker 2:Oh, what's it called bear town yeah yeah, and I put this one on hold actually first, before I read anxious people that one would just have to be at my library, um. But because I'm like in withdrawals, I want to get kid unlimited, so bad, so I can read hockey romances again, and they don't have those at the freaking library, like I need ali hazelwood to write one so they can come into the mainstream. Anyways, this is neither here nor there um, they don't sell.
Speaker 1:sell them, they just don't have a lot of options.
Speaker 2:There's like one or two that I'm not interested in reading. You know what I'm talking about. So, anyways, this one is not a romance but it is about hockey. So I was like, well, if I'm going to read Friedrich Bachmann, I'll start with this one. It is the first book in a series which I also didn't realize until after I finished it. So, um, if you read it, just know that, because there are some things I was like, oh, I want to know more about that, but I have to keep reading the series.
Speaker 2:Anyways, it's, um, about bear town, which is this hockey town in the middle of the woods. It's a small town, like underdogs, and they are on their like for the first time in decades. They're like, you know, teenager team, it's like junior league or I don't know what they call these levels. They're like junior team is like really, really good, they have the star player and they are like probably gonna win the playoffs, but it's the playoffs, you know, and so they're building up to this moment. And it's about the whole town, like there's the general manager and he's like a former hockey star and he came back to his town after playing in the NHL and now he's back and him and his family, his kids, and then there's like the star of the team. And then there's what might be my favorite character of the year, which is Benji. He is has like a single mom. His dad took his own life, he has these older sisters and he's like the enforcer on the team. He's like protecting the star.
Speaker 2:Like the whole book's kind of like about these two opposing views of of how to be a great hockey player, how to be a great team like. There's some people in the book that want to support the star and they think talent is what's going to take you there. And then there's some people who want to support more of like the benji character, um, and that like heart is what's going to take you there and like, because benji has like so much heart, um, and something happens and it divides the town. Um, just before the like playoff game and it has these like rippling out effects, people take sides. Um, it's not a great situation drama, it's very small town drama and, uh, ultimately, yeah, it's about like, I think it's about what I said earlier, but also about like culture and, um, there's this thing that keeps coming up of like culture isn't like your mission statement or your values.
Speaker 2:It's actually what you allow to happen and if you allow certain things to happen or to be said and you don't stop them like jokes that you allow to happen, and if you allow certain things to happen or to be said and you don't stop them like jokes that you allow being made and like you know things that are said in the locker room, like that is actually your culture and what you're permitting and how that can affect not just the team but the entire town. And I thought it was really good and I really am desperate to keep reading the series. So read it, but please check I think all of his books check the content warning because it's kind of tough at some parts. So if there's anything you feel like you might be uncomfortable reading, I would check those. But otherwise, go into it and let me know what you think of Benji, who I'm going to be thinking about for a long time and you get to keep reading about him.
Speaker 1:You get to keep. I can't wait.
Speaker 2:I hope he can find happiness in his life. He did not in this book, so I would love for him to be happy in the next one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, last parting thought before we go. I don't think we're going to be recording another episode until after September 11th. Oh, last parting thought before we go. I don't think we're going to be recording another episode. That's so true Until after September 11th.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's so true, we'll be on.
Speaker 1:Instagram Trust, trust. We'll be out there. Is this episode going to come out before 9-11? 9-11?
Speaker 2:I was like hold on, let me look at my calendar. I think this episode might come out after 9-11, to be honest with you, Okay, so I just want to say there could be some news you know what, if those news comes out, I will come out, I will come back and I will record an update.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we can come record an update. For sure, if you hear me from the future immediately cut after this, you'll know that there was news, but you'll already know. Go follow us on instagram or blue sky at redirect podcast, and we will push our live reactions out there, I promise you, because there's got to be something.
Speaker 1:That's so true, we can't wait for that and um.
Speaker 2:Our next episode will be recapping awake by jen hatmaker. So if you want to read along, go ahead and read that before. On september 23rd, I think. No, sometime at the end of september that's when the book comes out we'll be talking.
Speaker 1:Oh wait, and by the way, if you haven't been listening to our last few episodes before this one, we're talking about a twilight release like hey, something big's gonna happen, hey, hey hey, no one's doing a tea attack, we're not doing anything.
Speaker 2:We're talking about Renesmee. We're talking about, I mean, stephanie Meyer's going to attack us in a way, if you have those.
Speaker 1:that's what we're talking about. Everyone, relax, okay, we'll talk to you later, okay bye guys, bye we'll talk to you later. Okay, bye, guys, bye.