The Readirect Podcast
Shifting the conversation back to books. Hosted by Abigail Freshley and Emily Rojas.
The Readirect Podcast
Book Club: Awake by Jen Hatmaker
Join us for a discussion on Jen Hatmaker's newest book, Awake. Unlike our other book club episodes, this is less deep dive and more vibes based discussion. That's because we enthusiastically recommend reading this book for yourself and then coming back to join us for our discussion.
You're more than welcome to use this as a TLDR, and trust we are spilling the tea, but it is also impossible for us to capture the true generosity, beauty, and impact of this book in one simple episode. So listen & read & enjoy!
PLUS Twilight non-news, a buzzy Wuthering Heights trailer, and adaptations we’re excited to watch (*ahem* HEATED RIVALRY!!!!)
Important Links
Recent Reads
- Little Bosses Everywhere by Bridget Read
- Why We Love (and Hate) Twilight by Sarah Elizabeth Gallagher
- Americanah by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie
- Every Step She Takes by Alison Cochrun
- To the Moon and Back by Eliana Ramage
Leave us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, follow @readirectpodcast on Instagram and Bluesky. Share our show with a friend because that is by far the best way to grow our community of book-loving nerds!
Welcome to the Redirect Podcast. My name is Abigail Freshley. And I'm Emily Rohan.
SPEAKER_00:The Redrecht Podcast is the show that shifts the conversation back to books. We discuss themes from some of our favorite books and how those themes relate to our real lived experiences.
SPEAKER_01:On today's episode, we are bookclumbing Jen Hatmaker's new memoir a week.
SPEAKER_00:But before we get to that, um, we would love for you to support the show if you like it. Uh, you can go and leave us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and let us know that you love the show.
SPEAKER_01:You can always also follow us on Instagram or Blue Sky at redirectpodcast. And if you really, really love the show, um, consider sharing our show with a friend because that is by far the best way to grow our community of book loving nerds and what a great community it is. It's a great community connecting with people who listen to the show or who just care about books. Yeah. It really is everything. Yeah. Um, it is so yeah. Let's do it. We are talking about Jen Hatmaker's new memoir, which by the way, you guys are getting it so quickly after the release of the book because we got approved for an advanced reader copy of this book.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, our first ever. So play to us. Thank you. That's why you need to tell more friends about us so we can keep getting more arcs. Yeah, that was great, and um, it was fun to read.
SPEAKER_01:I didn't tell you this. What we got I requested on NetGalley the audiobook for that um Allie Hazelwood uh like slayer book. Oh yeah. Do you know what I'm talking about? Because they only have the audiobook available. We got approved.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, slay. Okay, let's keep up the good work. Yeah. So we're here because Abigail is leaving the country. Maybe don't come back. Think about that.
SPEAKER_01:Think about illegally immigrating to Portugal.
SPEAKER_00:But so we're recording early. So if anything crazy happens before you hear this, just know. We didn't know.
SPEAKER_01:We're in the past. Yeah, we're recording this on 9.17. So if something crazy, if if a new Twilight book does get announced.
SPEAKER_00:Oh god, let's get into it.
SPEAKER_01:On 918, know that we didn't know. Yeah, we didn't know. Speaking of. Speaking of. It it didn't happen. I don't how can it I know? Okay, here's the thing. I'm in denial. So it stops the camera. So it didn't happen during Twilight, Forever and Forks. So it's not gonna happen. I'm gonna be real with you.
SPEAKER_00:I don't think anything's gonna happen.
SPEAKER_01:Really? Okay, here's what happened. How does she release what is this? Is it the 20th anniversary?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:No, how does she release something for every anniversary, but not the 20th?
SPEAKER_00:It's weird. So yeah, so I watched, as we discussed in our last episode, if you don't recall, we were conspiracy. I don't even think I didn't even feel like it was a conspiracy. I felt like I felt like it was a sure thing. It was a sure thing that And guess what?
SPEAKER_01:I'm a Taylor Swift fan, so this feels like kind of familiar. It felt so familiar. This felt so real.
SPEAKER_00:So real. So um if you yeah, if you don't know what we're talking about, it's a Twilight 20th anniversary. And every year there is a Forever Twilight festival in Forks, Washington. And this year it was falling over 9-11, which is Renez's birthday. And um, Stephanie Meyer announced she was gonna be there and that she was gonna do an like an open QA with us. It was a select group of attendees. Like there's a raffle, I think, to get invited to the QA. But she was gonna be there on 9-11, and it's the 20th anniversary. In past anniversary, she's done uh the Brie Tanner book, the gender swap book, Midnight Sun, and so like big anniversaries, the five you know, years. So we were convinced she was gonna release um a Jacob Renesme sequel, company like or something, something, but probably that. And also, there's still the unidentified quote on her website, um, which has yet to be announced. I actually I've been thinking about that. Okay, what do you think?
SPEAKER_01:So the the quote is I'm gonna be wherever you are, you'll get used to it. Uh skipping ahead kind of to like one of the books I've read recently. I read an incredible analysis of Twilight called Why We Love and Hate Twilight by Sarah Elizabeth Gallagher, who, if you are on like Twilight Talk, you know her. Uh you know her. She has like dark hair bangs. Anyways, it was like I was like, oh, whatever, this will be fun. It was unironically one of my favorite books I've read this year. It was really good and thoughtful. But one of the things that she brings up in the book is basically Stephanie Meyer's disdain for the the quill youths and how she makes all of them have extremely traumatic lives. Yeah. And horrible things happen to them. Including, and maybe especially Leah. Sure. And she said some cryptic stuff about Leah. Correct. And she said something about like Leah finds happiness or something like that. I don't want to say more. I think we're getting Leah and is forced to imprint on somebody book.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so she did say, so uh there's a live stream out there that you can probably find now that I watched live and uh it was kind of difficult because the Wi-Fi and Forks is apparently terrible. So I'm not sure like if this is 100% accurate because it was cutting in and out. But someone asked her, does Leah ever like have a happy ending, or can you tell us what happens to Leah after the events of Twilight? And also I want to add if you don't go watch the live stream, this was a heavily moderated QA. People from the audience could not ask their own questions. So the questions were all submitted in advance by random people, not just people attending the event. And then the ones she answered were selected. So there's like again, I know for a fact someone asked the question, what's that quote on your website? And that was not presented to her. So there was a lot of stuff like not asked. Um, but anyway, someone asked about Leah, and she was like, I know Leah's story, but I don't want to say right now because maybe like there's some more. Like she didn't say, I'm working on something, nothing. It was just like Leah will maybe she won't find love, but she'll find her path in life. Um, that's all I'll say. So she was very cryptic about it. And then she also did say she's working on a standalone, not Twilight, uh like sci-fi book. And also that she's really into K-pop now. So those are the biggest revolutions from the live stream too.
SPEAKER_01:She's blonde, she's very blonde. She's it's it's giving like Rosalie cosplay, kind of.
SPEAKER_00:She also talked a lot about the Midnight Sun series, which I have been openly and privately skeptical about, but it did kind of sound good. So I'm interested. She said she was really inspired by Into the Spider-Verse. But again, she said this is coming by 2030. So this is not like an imminent thing.
SPEAKER_01:Y'all, we might not even be here anymore. That's what I think. I'm like, are we gonna be are we gonna have Netflix in 2030? Enjoy it, your weird vampire stuff now. Yeah, release the tapes. Actually, okay, here's the thing.
SPEAKER_00:Here we are complaining about this, but we didn't want the Jacob Rennesley book. It's just confusing.
SPEAKER_01:I just want something. And like I was there's so much that needs that's left to be said. Yeah. I I think maybe one of the things, maybe to celebrate the, or not even celebrate, to acknowledge the Twilight 20-year anniversary.
unknown:Commemorate.
SPEAKER_01:We need to like re-resurrect our Twilight episode or like add to it. Because I read this what we love and hate about Twilight, and then that compelled me to order literally the last remaining copy of Twilight and Illustrated a Guide by Stephanie Meyer from Thriftbooks, which is literally 500 pages. And there are a few illustrations, it's just dense like an appendix about the world of Twilight. Um so you know, I just feel like there's gotta be something. When is the actual anniversary of what was like the Twilight published date?
SPEAKER_00:Um I'm looking for uh published in. I'm looking for an archive of our own to see what uh what's out there in terms of Leah, Leo fanfic. That's what I want to know.
SPEAKER_01:It was released on September 27th.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, okay, so there's still time.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. What if she what if she like crazy drops something on the 27th?
SPEAKER_00:I would not be surprised to be honest, because now I'm clowning. Now this feels I know because there was genuinely not a single question. Here's some takeaways from the the QA. Um, big picture. There was not a single question about Jacob and Rene. Like nothing touched on them. Also, a lot of the questions focused on New Moon, weirdly. Okay, this is Taylor Swift level clowning, but a lot of the questions were about New Moon. And then nobody asked about the quote. Um, so I just think like she knew all the questions in advance. She picked them, obviously. You know, like it was again extremely created. So I am back to clowning. Okay, this will come out after that date.
SPEAKER_01:So again. Oh my god. Okay, here's the thing. If I'm on the Camino and this comes and there's an announcement, you have to at least I will pop in. I'll pop in. Get in and do a reaction. Yeah. This is our second time saying that. Or I'll send you, I can send you a voice memo with my reaction or something like that.
SPEAKER_00:Now I need it to happen just for that.
SPEAKER_01:No, because no, I'm gonna be literally on an international flight when the news breaks. When it breaks. Okay, so yeah, no update as we thought. But imagine sorry everyone, but keep believing.
SPEAKER_00:Never stop believing. That's all we have. You know what I mean? Yeah, I do agree. We need to we need to do a Twilight Deep Dive part two. First of all, that was like our first ever episode, so a lot of people probably haven't listened to it. And also because I was sick and our mics were terrible.
SPEAKER_01:But you know what? All right, all right, we're gonna come back.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we'll be back. We'll do it again, especially if there's a new book, but you know, even if there's not.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Okay.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Next bit of book news. Check. Okay, so a next bit of book news is that a trailer of a Wuthering Heights adaptation, movie adaptation, took the internet by storm, outraging English majors everywhere. Yeah, so reactions. Well, first of all, have you ever read Wuthering Heights?
SPEAKER_00:No, that's what I was gonna say. I feel really left out, and I feel like I should read it now to know what the outrage is about, but I have never read it.
SPEAKER_01:That's speaking of Bellislaw. I I'm due for a reread for sure. I mean, I haven't read this since high school. Sure. But it is um, okay, so the the controversy is around a couple things. One, the director of this movie is like famous for doing like very steamy movies. This is not actually a steamy book, so whatever.
SPEAKER_00:You know, it's like of your that's a dumb complaint because like it's your whatever. What were they supposed to write? It's your we can make it steamy now, you know what I mean? That's implied.
SPEAKER_01:I think the biggest outrage well, there's a couple of things. Also, the characters, so uh Heathcliff and Catherine. So Catherine is like 17 when the book starts, and Margot Robbie's in her 30s. Yeah. Right, okay. The next really significant thing is that Heathcliff is canonically not white. He is Romani mixed maybe with like some South Asian ethnicity. So he has been he's been cast as Jacob Ballordi who is white. Yeah. If you played Elvis, you're too white.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_01:So that is a concern. Although I have seen, and I'm I'm willing to, I'm holding a candle for this theory that the book is not so actually the name of the movie is not just I think it's in quotation marks, right? In the trailer.
SPEAKER_00:It's like yes, it has Wuthering Heights. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I think it could be that this is a movie about a woman who is obsessed with Wuthering Heights.
SPEAKER_00:That's what I've heard people theorized.
SPEAKER_01:And is wanting to like live out the plot of it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Like she's like And I'm open to that interpretation. I think choosing I I choosing to cast Jacob Ballordi as someone who has dark features but is not a person of color is certainly a choice. So I'm hopeful that it will not be what it won't be just like a direct adaptation. Also, it's not like it's a gothic novel. It's not really like a straight romance. It's kind of there's just like there's just a tragedy element. Sure. And so I think people who are really precious about literature are feeling like, why are we making this just like a horny book?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. But you know what? You know why? Because you guys are keep watching Bridgerton and you keep watching.
SPEAKER_01:Me. I keep watching Bridgerton and you.
SPEAKER_00:I didn't finish the third season, to be fair. But we keep always we keep yeah, season two. Uh whatever. We keep watching Bridgerton and we keep not supporting original IP. So they're just putting like the the realist theory to me is that they're just saying Wuthering Heights, and it's really not gonna be that relevant to the actual plot of Wuthering Heights at all. Uh, and they're just putting that as a title so that people will come see it and talk about it. You know what I mean? Like, that's the reality. They're not they it's just gonna be a Regency. Well, what is I don't know, what is this era even? And I've heard people talk about that too. Like the costuming isn't even from the right.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so um Victorian era is when the book is set, but some of the costumes from the trailer are Regency era, which would be about a hundred years later. Right. So there's a possibility that it's like like they're cosplaying.
SPEAKER_00:That does make me that lends credence to the theory that though that it is some kind of like, oh, let's act out this, you know, book that I am obsessed with.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, or it's about a woman who's obsessed with it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That would make more sense. So I don't know, we'll see.
SPEAKER_00:All right, check.
SPEAKER_01:And then you have some news.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I just wanted to talk very quickly about um if you like me, love Rachel Reed and most of her books, not all of them, um the heated rivalry adaptation is well underway. And I think if you're at all a fan, you should go read the blog post she recently posted. Um, it's about the experience of adapting the book and also like her own health journey. She apparently was diagnosed with Parkinson's eight years ago, and the doctor told her, like, you probably have 10 good years left. And so, like, she's just talking about time is short, and like you never know how long she's gonna be able to keep like writing and doing the thing she loves. And so, um, anyways, it's very, very affected.
SPEAKER_01:Did you say anything about how her disease is progressing?
SPEAKER_00:Um, yeah, it says like she has like shaking and stuff, but not doesn't seem like it's so debilitating at this point. Um, but yeah, it's just a really emotional read, and she talks about the experience of like how great the actors are. So I think if you are interested in this heated rivalry adaptation, um, she talks about how the experience, which I just think, yeah, this would be such a crazy thing, especially with um these particular characters, because they kind of show up in the entire series that she wrote, which I think is six total books, and then they themselves have two books that are just about their relationship. And so obviously, like she really has these characters in her mind. And so she said, like the guy who's playing Ilya, who's Russian, he like only spoke with a Russian accent on set, so he could stay in like you know, not lose the accent. So she was like, the first time she met him, he's like speaking to her in a Russian accent, like wearing the costuming of him, and it's like, oh, this is my guy, come to life, and now I'm talking to him. Like, okay, oh, maybe I need to give it another shot. I think maybe you should. I think at least you should go read the long game because I don't think you I think you get the gist of heated rivalry. And I agree with your critiques of it, and I think the long game is the reason I like heated rivalry because I just went through and read all of it, and that story is like genuinely incredibly touching, and it's more about like being in a long-term relationship and deciding whether you're gonna keep this secret and sacrifices you make for your partner, and it's really I think it's closer to her standalone books, which have a lot more to me depth and like heart to them because it's the last one in the series before she started writing more standalone hockey romance. So I'd recommend it, but either way, I will be watching this TV show when it comes out, and I think it's supposed to be six episodes or something. Um, so I'm excited to see it. And I really, yeah, even if honestly you haven't read her books, I recommend reading this blog post on her website because it was just like really nice and also inspirational and interesting. A peek behind the curtain onto like book adaptations and just a really well-written little addendum. So excited for that. That's cool. Great news.
SPEAKER_01:Can't wait. Excited for you. Thank you. You know what? This has inspired me in advance of the release of the TV show. You have time, so I'll give it a whirl.
SPEAKER_00:All right. Okay. Shall we?
SPEAKER_01:We shall. So I think we teased this book a little bit in our fall book preview. Yeah. Um, but I guess if you missed that one or if you need a refresher, um, Jen Hatmaker is a um kind of like a former like Christian women's Christian thought leader who um has since kind of stepped back from her faith and uh or has changed over time. And it all kind of started in 20 uh 2017-ish, 2016, 2017. Uh, she and her husband at the time came out in support of um, they came out as affirming of LGBTQIA people. And we're like, yeah, I would gladly have us a gay couple get married in our church. We would love that. Um, and then that caused like ridiculous shock waves throughout that whole world. And um in 2020, she announced uh her divorce from her husband, like very suddenly. And so this, and she was very quiet and tight-lipped about it for a long time, and now five years later, she's releasing a memoir about everything that happened. So that's like a grounding. Yeah. So, Emily, what is like your historic relationship with Jen Hatmaker?
SPEAKER_00:I would say I was Jen Hatmaker adjacent. I have never read any of her other books. I don't follow her, but I definitely I knew when the the affirming LGBTQ situation happened, and I definitely knew when the divorce thing happened. So yeah, like I knew of her. I'm more familiar with like some of her friends, especially like Sarah Bussey. I probably knew her through Sarah Busy, who I was more into back in those days. Um she got a little shout-out in this book. She got a lot of shout outs in this book. Uh the part about her was like, okay, so she's exactly the person that we can talk about that later, but she's exactly the person she presents herself to be. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I thought like I knew of her, but I've never read anything by her before. And now I'm like, oh, she's a really good writer. That was my that was my first takeaway from this. Like, I would read a fiction book by her. I just like the way she writes and yeah, she should write fiction.
SPEAKER_01:Jen, you should write fiction.
SPEAKER_00:She's a great storyteller.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I would love to read something by her. You know, I want to get her cookbook.
SPEAKER_00:I know. I was seeing that.
SPEAKER_01:I need to buy her cookbook. She was talking about the cookbook, and I was like, oh, I want that. Yeah, it sounded so good.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But yeah, I guess for me, like in her Christian heyday before any controversy was surrounding her, quote unquote controversy. Yeah. Um, I was kind of like we were younger than her target demographic. I mean, I was like young adult college teenager, so I wasn't really reading her books. Um, and then I remember kind of parallel paths with her. Yeah. Um, and I remember I was like working for a uh like my first job out of college was in 2017, and I was working for like a Christian event company. And they had had her um on at their conference the year before. Oh. And I remember when she announced this, it was um or maybe she announced it like right before the event, the year before something like that. And so I remember them talking about that and then feeling kind of uncomfortable because I didn't at that time I had it already had was not aligning with my values. Sure. Um so um, anyways, really I followed her more post that. Yeah. And uh that is my context with Jen Hatmaker. Um, but was so shocked, like many, to see that she when she announced her divorce in 2020, because part of her whole shtick is like she and her husband are like these really alternative, alternative type Christians. Yeah, they've been married since they were like 19, they have all these kids, some biological, some adopted. So it was like very shocking. Yeah. And I think she referenced it and I went back to look at it like a week before the divorce announcement. She had posted for their like 20th anniversary or their 30-something anniversary. Yeah, it was shocking. Um so just totally out there. So knew we had to read this book.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. Um, yeah. So, what was your overall like impressions of the book? How much like did you like it? What were your thoughts? Just overview.
SPEAKER_01:I was really surprised by the book. Um it was not so one thing is that it's not told in chronological order. Um, it's kind of like interspiced with stories from different points in her life that gather around similar themes. And some chapters are simply like poems or lyrics of songs that were meaningful, meaningful to her during that time. And so I I really I liked it. Um and it was surprising to me. She talks really more, you know, it's not like similar to the Christine Brown book, which we recapped in our last episode. Divorce also a divorce book, yeah, but in a totally different way. Totally different. Um, not necessarily like recapping what happened, but more about like her feelings throughout. And there was multiple moments that it they it genuinely brought me to tears. Um, emotional, and I connected to that. And I thought it was actually really a book about it was about her divorce, but it was actually also about her community and the people around you and the importance of having like a strong community to buoy you through life. So that was actually my main takeaway.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's about you. That's really interesting that you bring that up. I would love to talk more about the community aspect of it. Um, like I said, I I expected this yeah to be more of like a replay of the last few years, like what led up to her divorce, what happened, um, the aftermath, you know, etc. But this really spans her whole life. I mean, her and this like punched me in the face. It's I think a lot of people will find this relatable. Like the first chapter is about literally the moments um that we talked about when we first looked at this book of where she's hearing her husband late at night talking to another woman on the phone, basically. And that's the moment that ends her marriage. And then the immediate next chapter is about purity culture and growing up in church. And at first, you're like, Yeah, what is I mean, if you grew up in that environment, you know instantly what she's talking about and the connection she's making there. But if you didn't, you might be like, that's a non sequitur. But I really liked how it was all structured, like you said, like the themes where you're like, she talks a lot about trusting her body and trusting herself and taking care of herself and knowing that the things she wants are good and not bad. And it's okay to desire things, it's okay to like yeah, to give yourself what you need and what you want, and um, yeah, to mother yourself and to like do all those things. And so uh, same with the community to lean into your community, but um, I thought how it was organized, how it connected her entire life to this moment. Um, I think it was very I would imagine having not been divorced myself, if you were in a similar position, this book might be very helpful once you're like past the the intensity of it, maybe once you're like through it, because I think she has done a lot of work, and you can tell of like, okay, it wasn't just this one thing. Yes, my husband made this horrible mistake, like he did the bad thing, he cheated on me, like he did all other bad things were his fault, but also there's like a lifetime for both of us that has led to this point, and it wasn't something that happened for no reason. And like, there's things I did, there's things he did, there's like things our community did, all that led to this. So I really liked how she kind of connected all those things together.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and she was also, you know, she many times brings up the early days of getting it married at 19 and kind of having to literally not kind of, but actually having to figure out how to be an adult for the first time on her own post-divorce. I read this book at a like within the same week as reading um every step every step she takes, which is the new Allison Cochrane book. And a big theme in that book is delayed adolescence. Yeah. And like living these uh experiences, like everyone has to go through an adolescence. Like you can, you can't whether you do it in the traditional adolescence time, whether you do it later, like you're gonna have to, if you want to grow and get to this like second stage of life, yeah, you kind of have to go through those growing pains. And um so that really spoke to me too. Like I I related a lot to her figuring, like rebuilding the world around her post-her divorce. And suddenly, you know, and I and I related to this in terms of faith deconstruction, like, oh, this is the thing that makes you feel safe, and now all of that is at risk. Like you don't, you know, if you pull out one card from the deck of from the house of cards, like you don't everything else might fall. And that's really scary. And uh her journey to rebuild that was uh I think what could really connected to me the most and was really inspiring that she could do that in middle age with five kids. Yeah, and it made me sad thinking about it. Just made me it made me feel sad and uh like empathetic for her trying to do that with five kids. She never she didn't know how to log into her bank account. I know.
SPEAKER_00:Hey, let this be a warning to you. If you are if you are a woman, especially married, please know your finances. Have your own bank account, please. Like, I'm begging you to at least know the password, you know, because yeah, luckily her husband was pretty uh like he didn't fight her on that kind of stuff. He wasn't trying to like steal money from her, but like that could have very easily been the situation. So, anyways, that's let this be a warning sign.
SPEAKER_01:Lord.
SPEAKER_00:Um, but yeah, I agree with you totally. Sorry about the relatability of it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Totally. Um, she separates the book into three parts. It's a shorter book, it's under 300 pages. Um, and she separates it into three sections. The first is the end and then the middle and then the beginning. So she begins the book with the chapter talking about literally the moments following. She knew what time it was of like waking up. No, hearing your husband send a voice text to his mistress, and then they got up and talked about it, no, and that night he moved out. No.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, good for you, but that's insane.
SPEAKER_01:That's c that's that was actually the most wild part to me. Yeah. No one would know what they would do in that situation. But just to know so completely in that moment, yeah, like no, because the other thing was is that he said he didn't want to reconcile. Yeah. He said, like, I just think I have to feel sorry for you that I don't.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Which would kill me. That would kill me. That would kill me. Um, yes, she uh she this is a quote I wrote down. Um, it has been one day since I found out my life is not true, and I am sitting in an attorney's office. It is a Sunday, but she goes to my church and agrees to meet me in her empty building. My mom and sisters are in the waiting room. Um, it is only much later I wonder why did I run straight to a lawyer in the first 36 hours? What instinct drove me to an attorney instead of back to our marriage therapist? But I'm not ready for this truth telling yet. I was acting purely on intuition, which I only figured out later was the most trustworthy character in the play. I loved that because I'm like, yeah, obviously she talks a lot later, like there were other twinges or like cracks in the foundation and her first instinct is like get out.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah her one of her one of the things she shares is like it had been two years since they last had sex. You know and then to know that the few times that they did he was also yeah at that time he already had another partner. Such a horrible portrayal so hard. Yeah. Also it's COVID. Yeah. This is peak pandemic.
SPEAKER_00:Like that's even worse. Like you can't leave your house. Oh my God.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So she's having to figure out all this stuff all at once, literally figure out how to be an adult. Parent kids who are doing online school deal with their emotions. And she really is like oh gosh this part I related to too when you're in a moment of stress like that your body will lock in and do it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But it cannot do it forever. And she describes like she's been riding on this high I mean we're kind of going out of order because this whole book is out of order. Yeah. But you know she describes like being running purely on adrenaline for so long and then one of her children ends up having like a mental health crisis of their own. And basically like she dropped them off at the hospital for care. And then her body broke down on her and she had the first panic attack of her life. Yeah. And then she had to learn how to take care of her body for the first time in her life. Yeah. Not just so that it would perform for her but because it like she couldn't go on.
SPEAKER_00:She's gonna die. Yeah. Yeah. That's very relatable. I think any anytime you've been through a stressful situation like anyone can relate to that of you get through it and then after you're crying and you don't know why or like you're completely breaking down over something stupid and it's like no this is just all built up inside of me. Um it was really emotional.
SPEAKER_01:Through all of this time it's like she's she's feeling alone but her best friends are showing up for her people like you know her best couple friends are all inviting her to like eat dinner with them. She's the only single person and that was really it doesn't matter you know like nobody quit on her and she really relied on her girlfriends to um to keep her afloat which I also want to say I feel like a new thing in the trad wife movement is like I'm a bad friend because and like I sent you that video I think a few weeks ago I saw this video this woman was like well I'm a bad friend because I have kids and I have whatever it's like don't quit on your female friendships. Yeah you gotta pour into them you have to you like you have to I don't know men come and go like like your 20 year marriage of 30 years. Your women outlive men you know what I mean like you gotta have friends when it's over one way or another it's it's important for our health yes like our our heart health our nervous system our bodies like we have we really need to have friendships outside of our nuclear nuclear not George Bush not nuclear um our nuclear families like yeah this was a big that was obviously so big for her like everyone showed up in her life to help her through this crisis first of all I I did take a note like I need richer friends because her friends are constantly like hey I'm sending you to Mexico hey do you want to be condo in New York?
SPEAKER_00:Okay so you guys could get on that take your kids to tell your ride I'm like oh okay we're in a different my friends are like here's five dollars for Starbucks and I I it means it's the same but also one part I I really wanted to highlight um the day that she goes to her to meet back up with her husband to find out the whole story because she says like I won't talk to you again unless you're gonna tell me the whole truth. So she goes to meet with him at their house um and he says I've lied to you every day for two years. I can't even remember what was not true. But then her this made me cry her best friend's um husbands text her and they say we will be parked outside your house the whole time we'll just sit in the car. You have to do this part by yourself but we are 30 feet away we're here you're not alone and I just like wept because first of all that's so kind. But I think that's it just reminded me of this um I took a screenshot of this it's freaking Glenn and Doyle who you know opinions Ari. But she commented on someone's Instagram post who had recently lost a child and she wrote this comment and I like have it saved because it I'm like yes that is it she's talks about grief and she's like talking to you know she she rambles but she tells a story about her sister coming to stay with her one summer or something going through this dark time and she just was like locking herself in the dark room and how Glenn said she would just sit outside the room and just like be there outside the door. And then she said like grief is a dark room with a closed door but I will be sitting right outside and like that's what being a friend is is like you can't always go through the thing for your friend or with them. You can't always be there but you can like sit outside their house or sit outside the door and just let them know like I'm here. And I just yeah that happens to her time and time again of friends showing up in their own way. She talks about a friend who sent her like a$25 Starbucks gift card every single Monday and um a friend who just like came and pressure washed her driveway and friends who helped her build this like porch she always wanted and um it made me feel like I'm not a good friend like I need to be a better friend. And also like wow what a gift it is to let people into your life because when you do even though that's really hard yeah you can get so much support in return.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah it was really yeah and it was really cool like all of her friends showed up with their in their own unique ways. Like she had a friend who she describes as like her woo-woo friend who like staged her home. Yeah like you know and then she has other friends who were like okay let me figure help you figure out your taxes. Yeah exactly you know like showing up how you can like we can't all that's also the value of community that really came through for me in this book was like have a village because one person can't be everything to you and I'm not the person who can show up to help you with your taxes but you know I can stock your freezer yeah and clean your house. Yeah yeah I was gonna say that's you and and those those things are it all matters yeah it all matters so much especially taken together.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah um and just being consistent she had friends and family who were like letting her do her process um I just really appreciated that and and I thought it was so cool like speaking of that one of uh one of her friends uh is like an interior designer and helped her redo her whole house so yeah she she ended up keeping the house and uh a lot of people post divorce decide that they want to move to a new space yeah they helped her completely uh redo her home which I loved and she talked about kind of making her bedroom her sanctuary um that was all fantastic like that it all just was she was literally building rebuilding her life and I cannot even imagine the amount of emotional effort and energy that took every day yeah yeah and something she says several times is like um like some love does last and it wasn't the love I thought that was gonna last but these the love of my friends my family her sisters her brother in law her brothers like brother her kids like all of that love does actually last and um just because this one thing has been so shaken that doesn't mean her whole life is gonna fall apart you know there's still people there and and she also eventually gets to the place where she's like yeah this ended and I had 30 amazing years of my life when it didn't suck.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah you know that's so complex. Like in her initial stages of grief it's like it's okay. I hate you burn it down like whatever. And then it's like well but it's just there was still was a lot of good which takes a lot of maturity and I can't even imagine mentally being in that place if what happened to her happened to me.
SPEAKER_00:And I think that's very similar to what Christine Brown said if you guys listen to that episode like where she was just saying like I'm not gonna let all the memories be bad like there were still so many good memories and I think she does get to that point at the end where it's like yeah I wouldn't I mean I'm sad she says like I'm sad for my 19 year old self who didn't get to like grow up and who had to live within this really you know tightly controlled environment and who had to get or felt like she had to get married so young and all this stuff. But um like I wouldn't change it because then I wouldn't have my children I wouldn't have my in-laws I wouldn't have all these memories all of those like great experiences um so yeah I think that that is a really mature place to get to I mean not to bring up our college yet again but sometimes I think about that where I'm like man if if some circumstances had been different in my life I I would have maybe made a better decision in hindsight to go to a different school and have a different college experience where I had more of my young adulthood for real.
SPEAKER_01:And yet like I wouldn't be who I am today. Exactly I wouldn't have the friendships I had I made there you know like I'm yeah I guess I can't it's can't I can't say I fully regret it. Right. I look back and I feel sad for me. Right that I felt like my choices were so limited that that was what I needed like I was so excited about that that blah blah I was so excited about it back then and that was how big the world was to me then but I guess I feel sad that the world was only that big to me at that time. Yeah you know what I mean and that I could have couldn't have made a better decision about like where to spend college or what to major in or like to take dating less seriously or to just wear leggings and not be like my butt is out. Yeah just but we don't get that choice.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah but you can't take it yeah you can't disentangle it like that's yeah yeah it was maybe not the choice we would make now but that doesn't you yeah you can't go back so there's no point in that so yeah I get it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And she um there's one part I highlighted during the point where she's figuring out her body again. She's like you know she's figuring out how she needs to heal herself and she she kind of reframes the moment from when uh she woke up at 2 30 a.m to hear her husband voice texting his girlfriend and she says it's 2 30 a.m I'm awake I'm familiar with this nocturnal rhythm I've spent a few hundred hours awake at this exact time within the last two years for a while those middle of the night hours were temp tempestuous my overstimulated system triggered and hurting anxious and urgent the impetuous uh the impetus always some version of this memory 2 30 a.m in this bed is when it happened and then sleep was another two hours away and then she says I lay there quietly trusting the goodness of my own safe body believing her wisdom and waiting for her message it's 2 30 yes this was the time yes you heard those awful words yes I have a message for you too what is it I just can't quit you I smile my body is both cheeky and earnest the one who will never quit me is me the one who will never lie to me is me the one who will always love me is me.
SPEAKER_00:I totally I know channels I know that was so true and so good and it's yeah like like I said um she talks a lot about purity culture and growing up in that environment throughout this book and oh and the disconnection that happens from your mind to your body in that culture is insane as we both know as we know and it tells you like you can't trust your body you can't trust your body is eating it's gonna it's gonna take you away yeah like don't give in to your body it's it's you know you're a crumpled up rose or chewed piece of gum if you do anything bad and it does take like a significant amount of work and she never did that work because she got married at 19 and it's all just like baked in and then all of a sudden she's alone again and she has to be like okay now I have to deal with this as an adult with five kids and it's like but yeah it it's like really tough to and she even says in this like if you don't didn't grow up this way you're probably like this is the most insane thing I've ever read but it's like really true. Um so it's just tough. Um but I really liked that through line and how she connected that to what happened in her marriage I think was like very thoughtful and I think a lot of people could probably learn from that even if you're not at the point of your husband having an affair or whatever. Like yeah it's no nothing bad's gonna come from you learning to love yourself and to take care of yourself and to um you know like trust yourself there's nothing bad that's gonna come from that it's only gonna bring you more good things in your life.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I love how honest she was too about the ups and downs of the journey like two step forward or one step forward two steps back like she would you know get to this place where she's like healing and doing better and then she finds out that her ex-husband is getting remarried. Yeah and somehow not to the woman that he cheated on her with which was a revelation somehow because it's like what'd you say like like did we really think those kind of relationships are built to last oh yeah I don't know but it's like okay that that's really hard on her like she feels no that's angry that she's finding that out on Instagram right and then like you know she's then she's like feeling more forgiving and then she kind of goes on her own like eat pray love journey of sorts because she's you know she does this thing called Me Camp where every summer she like takes herself for a month and does stuff just for her.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah and again I just do need to be I know I need to be more trendy with respect to you but you know I I think with the card with respect to you too but like I think about this just think about like if you had kids in 19 no which both of our both of our mothers did um you and you're raising kids for 30 years straight yeah in your home like this may be the first time she's ever done anything just for herself ever yeah that's crazy that is crazy that is crazy that's crazy um yeah it's genuine the first time you go on a trip just for yourself that's crazy you know I did like the Me Camp thing and I like she talked a lot too about sorry we're just jumping all over the place but this book does jump all over the place she talked about codependency and I was like oh yeah have you read that book no but I think I might need there there's I I did uh and it was a huge call out to me um and I'm still on my codependency journey yep but there's a book so codependency no more is the original book yeah but then there's an updated version um by the same author I think it's called the new codependency oh like an updated mm-hmm where it has like updated science oh nice um okay and updated stuff like that um but the main thing I got from that book by um Melody Beattie uh she's the wife she's the ex-wife of an alcoholic um is I cannot let someone's I cannot let my happiness depend on the happiness of others yeah I cannot let my well being depend on the well-being of others because guess what I have a lot of unwell people in my life if I if I depend on everyone else's wellness to be well I am gonna die yeah yeah literally I'm going to die of stress and sickness and waste yes yes I it's hard felt very called out by this because she talks about it and she's like I'm not codependent I am independent like I have my own job and that's how I feel and and then she's she's like reading through it and she's like oh because I just feel like okay this is honesty hour. I definitely feel like like you said depending on other people um and something she talks about is like trying to manage everybody's emotions that was the part I was like oof because I just feel like I hate conflict in my life and a lot of people around me don't mind conflict at all. And I'm always like so stressed out when there's like a slightest debate and like trying to manage everything and something I'm trying to get better at but like it was really a call out of like that is actually it's codependency because you're letting yourself like you have nothing to do with this you know like if there's an argument near you or a debate or whatever like that has nothing to do with the me but I'm letting it affect my emotional stability and trying to manage how people are reacting to things and like that's crazy.
SPEAKER_01:So I did find that unfortunately compelling and impossible like insane so yeah but she was very honest about that a lot of like inner child work sure that needs to be done for all of us and she has to go through that and I was like oh yeah and to have to do that this what I think when I read these like this is so tough.
SPEAKER_00:Anytime I read her memoir I'm like this has to be so hard because you're being so to be fair she very much protects the privacy of her children first of all she really does not share much of anything about them. And she doesn't really share much about what actually happened to intermarit like we know that he had an affair but it seems like there's more to the story that she doesn't get into um and she's very generous with her like portrayal of she doesn't say of the specifics how they met.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:How wrong what happened um he did hide a lot of money stuff she did say that yeah and there's alcohol and whatever he did like lie about places he was going when he was really going yeah to okay one thing that kind of jumping backwards though that I was like come on girl is I she was like why aren't your location services working and he was just like oh I don't know we should probably have called the phone company yeah like call the phone company what like what do you mean yeah so she was a little bit naive in some ways but um yeah I don't know what I was saying but just like I anyways even though she did protect their privacy in so many ways it's also like hey you have to like be honest about who you are you have to be honest about the things you've done wrong you have to be honest about situations in your life she talks about like so many private things and it's like I just think that's really like amazing thank you for doing that because it was a beautiful read and I feel like I learned some things and I feel like a lot of people will see a lot of value in this book but also like man what a what a feat like you know so earnestly open yourself up in that way is crazy.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah it's a divorce book but it's actually more a rebuilding your life book. Yeah yeah absolutely and also like the the aspect of rebuilding her life that started well before the divorce when um basically like the Christian publishing industry kicked her out and she had to completely reinvent herself. Yeah. So like you know starting from there and then moving forward um it's the story of how she basically reinvents her life and um so she wrote she wrote this book and then she uh wrote a cookbook too where she was sharing this is lovely like all of their family recipes. She felt like she couldn't share that anymore because she was like uh divorced from her husband and a lot of the recipes had to do with him or members of his family or whatever. And they were like well those people are still your family right like you still have those memories like I don't get why you can't do it. And she has this beautiful like 30 foot dining table built out in her backyard. Again I need to be friends with people with more money than that. Exactly thank you but all of her friends are sitting around the table and it's the cover of the cookbook yeah and that really centered for me that it's a book about community. Community yeah yeah this book is about community that was great loved and like the loves of our life are our spouses and also our best friends and siblings and parents and grandparents and all the people who help us live every day.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah and I think also if you're someone who has someone in your life going through a hard time this book is a very good instruction manual because there are ways big and small in which people showed up for her and uh we'll give you some idea. Any other thoughts about the book? No, I just wanted to say um overall I think a lot of times are this I mean is not a really great recap probably but I think a lot of people probably come to these like not wanting to read the book but wanting to know the T. I think this is a book worth reading. So especially if you relate at all to how Jen Hatmaker was raised or how we were raised I think you should read it but I think anybody can find something good in this and it like you said it's short and it's really well written so this would be kind of has like a poetic rhythm to it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah that there's a lot of beauty in the way that it was written it's not just like a recitation unlike the Christian Brown book which we both liked. I mean that was a recounting of events written by a ghostwriter in consultation with Christine. Yeah this is a book written by Jen 100%. Yeah and she's a great writer on her own and she's a great writer so there's like an artistic quality to it like it's definitely worth reading Spark notes won't do it justice.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah yeah you should go read it so thank you to Jen Hamaker for sharing your life with us. Yeah that's it um what else have you been reading recently I have a lot honestly I'm we switched places um oh good because I read one I might I read one book but I don't feel like I want to recommend like it was fine. But I did finish finally this one nonfiction book which is called um I listened to the audiobook on Spotify um Little Bosses Everywhere Everywhere by Bridget Reed and this is about um MLMs I'm trying to read what the sub the like subtitle is but it's so small how the pyramid scheme shaped America so it talks a lot about pyramid schemes multi-level marketing and American Paul Khan is quoted in this Paul Khan is quoted in this if you know you know uh in a good way I was scared because like Paul Khan what did he say? But he like apparently wrote a book about Amway I think like just yeah just a I like vaguely remember that from taking his psychology class um so yeah he wrote a book and uh it's quoted briefly in this if you know Paul Kahn but I was like she said Charles Paul Kahn I'm like maybe there's another Charles Paul Khan I Google it no same guy um but yeah it was really good it was very informative I think I've read a few like I read um someone did a memoir about their time in Rummer we both read it I think a while ago some one of those um but this one was very in depth I think even if you know some stuff about like Amway and uh oh you're talking about Hey Hun. Hey Hun yeah this one is way more like academic and it's really really how these companies have shaped American politics and like um how their influence is far reaching including into the very very real and present and terrifying modern day so um I think you know it's a little a little harrowing but I think it's worth reading um it's got some good narratives like from people who went through um being in these also she goes to a Mary Kay conference like Loki undercover. So that was really funny and interesting to read about um but it's really good journalism. I think it's like informative and uh it was a good you know audiobook to read so thumbs up.
SPEAKER_01:If you could be in any like if you had to be in any any MLM okay which one would you choose if you had like if you had to do like the hosting parties uh like what product would you want to do um probably probably like Tupperware right like those are those are pretty decent products.
SPEAKER_00:I'm thinking uh yeah what's that thing the chef one yeah pampered chef yeah that's a good one like like that's decent stuff so yeah I would say pick one of those um it's a good one nice I recommend it that's that's the only book I've finished lately after a crazy August. I mean I read a lot in August so you know yeah the universe requires balance yeah I'm balancing out I'll get back to I've been reading a lot of fanfiction I'm not gonna lie to you which may or may not be your car any good fanfics to share? Oh what have I read recently let me let me look how my bookmarks I'm I found one um oh this one was actually really cute it's called Rumspringer by Life is a Bitch and it's where uh Remus is like Amish and it's like him growing up and then he goes into Rumspringer and he has to decide if he wants to stay or if he wants to go. It was really cute. So that's a that was a cute one I read recently yeah love that here for the archive of our own reporting content.
SPEAKER_01:What have you read recently more than me I think I have caught up a little bit so I I did not close my gap all the way back again but I got I got up to eight books behind my okay that's realistic no I that was how bad it got oh I was gonna say that's like reasonable still okay okay so how are you? I was eight books so I I closed it from being two books like whenever I was trying to catch up I was like okay I'm two books behind and at the end of July then fell even farther stretched back out to eight okay but now I've closed it back to three. Okay that's really good three books behind now okay so um okay so obviously I read Swister Wife we talked about that obviously awake yeah I already mentioned why we love and hate twilight so I won't talk about that again but I think you should read this book okay and it's the audiobook is what I did let me see if that's a thought and it wasn't that long okay it was very short um and then okay I read two other well three other books of note um one is Americana by Chimamanda Nigozi Adichi and this is not a hot take this book is very famous and has been for like over 10 years so um it's just that I finally got to it um at the recommendation of friends but it is a book about um it follows two characters that are both uh both Nigerian uh Obinze and I'm trying to remember the first main character's name uh sound oh ifemelu um and so ifemalu and Obinze grow up in Nigeria and they both immigrate they both want to immigrate to America but what Ifemalu does Obinze goes to the UK and it's about being Nigerian in America and it's about race and basically becoming black for the first time in your life moving to America yeah and what's that's what that's like like the dynamic like the experience of being black for the first time in your life but also not a black American so there being like a difference between black Americans and African and we're non non-American black people and then like black people in America versus um other ethnic ethnicities in America and uh it's set in the 2010s and it kind of all leads up to the moment that Barack Obama is running for the presidency. Okay. And uh it's weaving in their stories. I would say if Emalu is not necessarily a likable main character. She's very complicated. But that's what makes the book really well written is the characters are all very complicated and she represents a certain like immigrant experience and it's almost challenging to you to be like okay I guess it's it's like challenging to the reader to be like okay do you still support this person even if you doubt their choices do you still support their right to like be a human being and be able to work in the United States and make money for themselves and all this stuff like even if they're not like this perfect model of success yeah or this perfect like moral upright character. So it was really compelling um this is not a hot take but I read it and it was good. Great that sounds and then I also read Every Step She Takes by Alison Cochrane. I don't want to say too much about it until you read it. Yeah I get that so it's all right it was really good I lived up to expectations we'll talk about it more after you read it. Great. And then the last book is called to the moon and back by Eliana Ramage. This is uh Reese's book club pick for the month of September so I'm not breaking news here but um this is the story of um a little girl growing up in Well, she starts as a little girl. It spans like 20 years of her life. Uh, growing up in uh Cherokee Nation. And she wants to be an astronaut.
SPEAKER_02:Oh.
SPEAKER_01:And uh, it's told from multiple perspectives, her perspective, some of the her her sister times, uh, her college, her first her first love. And so we read from multiple people's perspectives, and it really deals with the complexity of indigenity and what it means to be indigenous in America and like the responsibility that that is, and also the burden at times and grappling with identity in a modern world. And it was very complex, very well written, and I highly recommend. That sounds really good.
SPEAKER_00:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:So I would read that one for sure.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, yay.
SPEAKER_01:That's all I got.
SPEAKER_00:All right, we'll see you all next time for something. All right, bye bye.