The Readirect Podcast
Shifting the conversation back to books. Hosted by Abigail Freshley and Emily Rojas.
The Readirect Podcast
Book Club: Devout by David Archuleta with Jubilee Dawn
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CONTENT WARNING: In this episode, we discuss themes from David's book, which include sexual abuse, parental abuse, suicidal ideation, and homophobia. Please take care when listening!
We are joined by special guest Jubilee Dawn for today's book club, focusing on David Archuleta's memoir, Devout.
About Jubilee:
You can find Jubilee on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok @jubileedawns. Her podcasts are Healed-ish and The Overshare Hour.
Recent Reads:
Identity Language And Fear
SPEAKER_04Or, like I I was always taught that that if you say I'm gay or I'm bisexual, that's you owning it. Especially in Bethel circles, they would say, because they were all spiritual. So they would say it's almost like a word curse that you're putting on yourself. You're taking it into your identity, you're coming into agreement with the term.
AbigailSo God, the way that shiver does randomized by agreements.
Welcome And How To Support
AbigailWelcome to the redirect podcast. I'm Abigail Freshly. And I'm Emily Rojas. The Redirect Podcast is the show where we shift the conversation back to books. We discuss themes from some of our favorite books and how those themes show up in our real lived experiences. On today's episode, we have a very special guest, Jubilee. Um, here to talk about David Archelletta's new memoir, Devout. Before we get to that, we would love for you to support the show in a few simple ways. First, you can go on Spotify or Apple Podcasts and leave us a five-star review and let us know that you love the show. You can also follow us on Instagram and TikTok at readerpodcast. You can follow Emily on all platforms at Emily Rajas Reads. You can follow me on Instagram at Fabigal Insta and on TikTok at Fabigal11. And if you really, really love the show, you can share our show with a friend because sharing our show with your friend is by far the best way to help us grow our community of book loving nerds.
Meet Jubilee And Her Story
AbigailAnd we have a book loving nerd on the podcast today, Miss Jubilee, aka Jubilee Dawns. Um, Jubilee, we're so happy to have you here.
SPEAKER_04Thank you so much. I'm so excited to come on. I know I talk about religion. Well, I mean, this book is also about religion, but I love books. Honestly, mostly audiobooks, though, if I'm being so for real.
AbigailSo you know what? I just saw this thing that I didn't really look into that closely, so it could be not true. But it was like the scientific study where they like did brain scans of people with them listening to an audiobook and compared to people reading books with their eyes, and the same exact thing happened in their brain.
SPEAKER_04They just saw that too. All the same parts of our brain letter that yeah, yeah. I love to hear that because I don't have time. That that's the thing. I get to put on audiobooks and clean my house, be in the car, and yeah, it's just way easier to find time in the day to get through.
AbigailOn this podcast, audiobooks count as books, and yeah, we believe that deeply. So sincerely. I also read the audiobook for this book.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Um, but I always get the actual book for my bookshelf. Nice because I it's a decoration.
AbigailSobile, I imagine many of our listeners know who you are, but um, do you want to give like a little elevator pitch about who you are and what you do online uh for people who don't know you?
SPEAKER_04Yes, I talk about religious trauma and deconstruction. So I joined a cult when I was 18, and it was a very charismatic sector of Christianity. So speaking in tongues, uh raising people from the dead, and I ended up getting married because a prophet who was a con artist said that I should marry my ex, who was like 10 years older than me, and basically he was really crazy and abusive. And I ended up getting divorced over a Walt Disney World burger. And that's kind of the first story that I shared on TikTok. And then ever since then, I've just been trauma dumping on the internet and deconstructing fear and all of that glorious stuff.
AbigailAnd we're so glad that you are, and not that that has its stuff happened to you, but that you're sharing it. And if you're thinking to yourself, wow, Jubilee, you should write a book. Well, you're in luck because you're writing a book.
SPEAKER_04I am writing a book. I'm so excited. So uh this is on the down low. I don't think I've said this anywhere, but I got a literary agent recently.
AbigailPut it in the podcast if you want. We can cut it out.
SPEAKER_04Oh, I don't care. It's in there. No, I got a literary agent, so it's actually happening. It's happening. So I'm very excited.
AbigailUh, and we will, we would love to have you back when your book is out. That will be the most tea episode. Speaking of uh religious trauma, joining cults, writing books, that kind of
David Archuleta Lore And Crush
Abigailstuff. Um, we're here today to discuss David Archoletta's new memoir, Devout. And before we dive into the book, I would like to know for both of you, what is your like David Archoleta lore? How did David Archoleta enter your life? And uh what kind of like who were you when he entered your life? Sounds like uh, when did I accept David Archoletta into my heart as my personal and savior? Okay, so um yeah, I I was not super allowed to watch American Idol, not because of like bad reasons, but bedtime reasons. And this is like my personal trauma. My mom is probably listening to this. Yeah, Emily grew up in a really strict bedtime house. Very strict bedtime house. 7 p.m. It was like we didn't try and spend the night at your house because it was like, all right, we have to go to bed early. Yeah, we had to go to Emma's house for truth to spend the night. So I remember that being like really depressing because everyone would always come to school the next day and be talking about like, oh, did you guys see that audition last night? And I'd be like, no, I don't even know what you're talking about. I listen to 104.7 the fish, Christian radio. So, anyways, but I did I do remember David Archuletta, and I remember everyone talking about how the wrong David won. Like, I remember the conversation about it, and then his song uh Crush, like I that went triple platinum in my in my house on my MP3 player. I loved that song so much. I think I titled one of my early fan fiction uh chapters after that song. I I'm saying I think I know for a fact I did, and I just loved it so much. So just trying to downplay it. I might have I I have the receipts. So um, yeah, that's my relationship. But I didn't actually watch his season of Idol, and I didn't realize he was so young when he was on it until reading this. Like I didn't realize he was a minor or you know, like closer to my age. So that's my relationship, Tim. What about you guys?
SPEAKER_04My family loved American Idol. Uh, we watched it as a family together ever since Kelly Clarkson. And yes, the wrong David won. Okay, no, actually, that guy is nice and fine, but I was so rooting for David Archuletta. And my brother and I, he used to drive us to school. I remember in high school, and he had this huge like binder of CDs. And I distinctly remember we had a the C D. Oh god. We would just like play Crush constantly. And I remembered the music video, like absolutely. I just loved David Archuletta. So I I've loved following his journey online recently. It has been so awesome. Crush still is a great song. I want to say that too. I still go.
AbigailIt's so good. Dale goes. Yeah. Okay. Abgil. Yeah. I I think, yeah, same. I we were we were an idol. Yeah, we were an idol family. Because remember, we would come on like Tuesdays and Wednesdays, and on Wednesdays, we'd be at church. So we would be like, we would set the VCR to tape it so that we get home, like, or we'd be like rushing home to try and get home by eight to watch Idle. Um, I think I was rooting for David Archoleta that season. Um, I think definitely in the finale. I do remember, like, there during his season, there were like vague mentions of his faith, or he like, and he mentions this in the book too. Like, there's a couple things, like songs he wanted to sing, or he chose not to sing certain verses of a song because of his convictions, but he never said he was Mormon, I don't think. They never like got specific. So I remember there being this vague, like, oh, I should root for him because he's a Christian.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
AbigailAnd then there was a couple other uh idol participants, like in subsequent years, who like sang worship songs or something like that on idol. And I remember being like, like, do you guys remember Angie?
SPEAKER_04No, no, I I didn't know the the name sounds familiar.
AbigailShe did like oceans on the piano, I think. Anyway. Um, yeah. Oh, oceans. Anyways, so um I loved him, and oh, I remember just the thing about his vocal cords being a super big deal.
SPEAKER_04I don't remember that at all. Like I when I was reading the book, I forgot because yeah, for anyone who hasn't read it, he mentions something about how his vocal cord was paralyzed. Is that what he said?
AbigailHe has a one vocalized or one paralyzed vocal cord. Anyways. All right, so if if you're but if you listeners, if you would like to read the book and not be spoiled, stop listening now because we are gonna spoil everything that happens in the memoir. Um, so here we
Devout Opens With Family Upheaval
Abigailgo. Book opens, early life, David Archelletta. Um he is he has some older sisters, and I forgot that he was his mom is from Honduras, right? So yeah, I forgot that um I forgot that about him. And um, he had he grew up in like in a musical family. So his mom and dad were both musicians. His mom was in a singing group, his dad was a jazz musician, I think. And um they had grew up in a really religious family. Um, there was a couple of rocky things that happened early in his childhood. Uh, I think maybe we could start there. Early in his childhood, another family member accused his dad of sexual assault. What did you guys make of this part of the book?
SPEAKER_04I actually really related to this part of the book, not because I went through that exactly, but basically in the book, he talks about how this family member says that his dad had sexually assaulted his sister, but then his sisters have said that's not true, that never happened. So that this was a lie that was made up by this family member for retaliation. And he talks a lot about how it made him scared of his dad, that he didn't know if his dad was a good character or a bad character. And I've never really shared this before, but I was sexually abused when I was younger, not by somebody in my family, but it really scared me from my dad. Like I remember growing up being scared of my dad, not liking being around my dad. Um, and this even continued when I went off to Bethel. I remember me and my dad shared a hotel room on the drive up to Bethel. And I had so much sexual trauma that I was even scared to like share a hotel room with my dad. So I really related to him talking about that and how confusing that is for a young mind because you don't know, is this family member telling the truth? Is this somebody who I should be afraid of, or is this whole thing a lie?
AbigailOr even he didn't know what rape was, right? So he's like, they're saying these words that he nobody will explain what it is to him. So there's also all this fear of like what is unknown.
unknownYeah.
AbigailAnd also like his dad ends up not being a chill guy, but not because of this, because he didn't do this. So what are you doing? There are other things to not like his dad for, but yeah, I was just gonna say, I think like this is the common theme through his book and and through a lot of like very high control religions that are obsessed with sexuality, where it's like nobody's willing to actually explain what they're talking about to him. And so you really see it how that plays out of like, like you said, he doesn't know what like to him thinking about kissing someone is like equally as bad as this accusation against his dad, and it's all like it's just all mixed up in his mind, and I thought that was uh yeah, it's tough to read when it's like, well, when you're not clear about stuff, that's what your mind as a kid like is trying to understand and populate things in, and like it's not comprehending what the truth is actually going on because people are just being fake about everything. So um, yeah, it was really I don't know. I I I really I thought it really interesting how we talked about his dad throughout the whole book and like trying to they have forgiveness for him or have compassion for him, but also like the abuse he went through and uh things like this where it's not even true, but it's still confused his relationship with them was like really tough to read, but I don't know. What did you think, Abigail? Yeah. Yeah, well, and then like that's just setting the stage for what his relationship with his dad is like because he doesn't know what's going on, he's confused. There, you know, he's a kid who doesn't understand a lot of stuff, he's picking up on the discord in his family, but then at the same time, he becomes his dad's obsession and his dad's favorite, and he sees he experiences being favored over his sisters and also sees his dad like verbally and emotionally abuse his sisters. Um that was terrible. That was really that was really hard. Yeah, I felt so bad. I forget what his sisters' names are. I forgot Claudia and Claudia. Yeah, Claudia was the worst one, yeah. And Ashley, I think, or something. Claudia, yeah, but Claudia or the brunt of a lot of everything. Yeah, yeah. I think this was like a classic example of like a trying to live vicariously through your child, and you know, until like kind of Mormonism, they were very faithful Mormons. So we can also talk about that. Like they were very faithful Mormons, they really believed in like um you know, there's like this lingo within Mormonism of like your the father being the priesthood holder. Um and that he had like this spiritual authority over his family, and because so he could say, because I'm telling you this, basically, God is telling you this because I have been given dominion over you. I think he even says that.
SPEAKER_04Yes. Which this reminds me so much. I feel like I wasn't involved in either of these sectors, but once you start deconstructing religion and going down that path, you start to see how similar these sectors are. So while he's talking about the priesthood and having dominion over all of them and the kids, and he feels like he has to just listen to his dad. I recently had somebody on Heal Dish who was a part of IBLP, and it's the same sort of thing of they're the head of the household, they're the umbrella of authority, and it all just goes back to the dad. Yeah. And you just have to listen to what they say.
AbigailYeah, I was gonna say an absolute authority. Yeah, I was gonna say the same thing. Like, I was surprised because I think in my mind I always thought of Mormons as like ultra, ultra conservative, and also they have they do have different theology that is like, you know, its own brand, right? But like I just always thought of them as so other and so different. And then reading this, I was like, oh, so much of this is very similar to like things I was taught or like experiences growing up in church, and maybe like there's different extremes of it, but I was just surprised by that. Like, oh, this is all like you said, it's kind of the same thing, like there isn't that much difference between being a Mormon and just yeah, different expressions of patriarchy, sure, yeah. Like basically exactly, but he also dabbles in a little bit of like his early understanding of Mormon theology and things that his dad has shared with him about and his parents shared with him, like he had some like nighttime lullabies and songs, like about I I forgot this from from um from what this took me back to Sister Wives, but really one of the things that's really emphasized in his childhood is we're doing all these things so that one day when we're in heaven, we can be up in like the highest heaven and experience the greatest reward and become gods ourselves. I forgot that about I always forget about it. Okay, that is different, yeah. Same thing when we read um Christine Brown's book. Yeah. It's like, oh, I'm I'm doing all this because I can be a god or something. Yes. They believe that God is a god of like that there's another god above God who made him, and then yeah, he ascended and became God, and now they could do the same thing, which is like wow. By just doing all the right things, I guess, wearing the right stuff. I don't know.
SPEAKER_04But I heard they've been walking that back. I had somebody on who was saying that, you know, she was definitely told that she was going to be a god and have her own planet and stuff growing up. And she said, but now when I talk to the Mormons in my family, they're like, we never said that. Like that that's not that's not a doctrine that we hold. And she said, I almost kind of wish that they would stick to their guns because our religion, while I don't believe in it, was really funky and had some really cool different things about it. Um, but they've gotten so much backlash that they're like, we didn't say that, you know. And she's like, Don't gaslight me. Like, I 100%
Patriarchy And Mormon Priesthood Power
SPEAKER_04was told that I was going to be a god. Like 100%.
AbigailCome on, bro. That's a coolest part. Um that's the thing about Mormonism, is because they have this prophet, they always have a different, you know, there's always a like a reigning prophet that speaks for God. They can kind of change and move course on the theology based on what is the most politically expedient or whatever, like culturally relevant. Exactly. Um, this is I would like to pause and say, uh, this is a great commercial for going to read Joseph Smith and the Mormons. Um, the such a good book. And like I learned so much history about Mormonism from that book. David's dad is trying to launch a singing career. There's early days, he goes on Star Search. I want to talk about this though. He makes David randomly sing in public at different places. And like, I would like to raise the World Trade Center.
SPEAKER_04My gosh, the cringe was cringing. Yeah, they literally made him sing for this. What was it? The 9-11 memorial.
AbigailAnd his dad was like, Can my son sing for all you grieving families mourning at the at Ground Zero? Like, and David is like, I please, dad, I please, I'm begging you, I do not want to do this. And he was like so inappropriate. Or the way, or whenever he was um, oh, another they went to like the idol like tour and they saw Kelly Clarkson and he was like, Can you sing for Kelly Clarkson? I would pass on the streets. So embarrassing. Oh my god. This is such a minor, this is not the same, but when I was in elementary school, we went to uh Epcot with my grandparents and we went to a French restaurant, and I had been taking French in school. So my grandparents were there, the waiter was French, because obviously it's Epcot's immersive. And so he comes up and he's like, my they're like, my granddaughter speaks French. Can she speak French with you? And I'm like, I want to die. Like, I literally want to die. That is so something your grandparents would do. But they were trying to be nice. I understand it was not like the the David Archoleto situation, but that's what I could think about when I was reading this. And I'm like, that is this is my nightmare. I I think I would rather die than have my parents say, Can my son sing for you? Like, that's crazy. And it happens over and over again.
SPEAKER_04It's not like the one-time thing, it's like repeatedly, and it's like and you feel the anxiety of it because I mean, he also has this thing of his dad is the priest holder and he has to do whatever his dad says. And it really felt like his dad was Loki kind of kidnapping him throughout the book. Like he kept wanting to just go back, and his dad was like, No, we're going to New York. No, we're going to LA. We're gonna go do all these things, and it's not even something that he really wanted to do. Yeah, that bummed me out too.
AbigailIt was the early expression of the spiritual abuse, yes, and it's like now he has no choice. Like, it's made me so sad for him because I'm like, he could have just like he missed all his schooling, he missed like being a normal kid, figuring out what it was he wanted to do with his life, and you know, now he's an adult. Like his dad sort of shepherds him through um with the Star Search experience and then later with idol of like coming of age,
Stage Dad Moments And Isolation
Abigailbut he doesn't get to like ever do what it is he wants to do. It just it yeah, made me really sad. So he's embarrassed because his dad is making him sing in front of strangers, which is already so traumatizing. But then he's like in his early experiences on Star Search, his dad is always causing problems about like what song he can sing and like who should be ranked a higher against who, and like there's like this feeling of knowing that like uh your parent is causing a problem, and you are associated with that, and it is totally out of your control. That is that is something I related to. Yeah, like I have a family member who is causing an issue, yes, and I am bound to them and related to them, and I like am now associated with this, and I want nothing to do with it, and I'm he has no power and no control. He just does exactly what his dad says. And it it was also so hard. Uh, this is a passage I highlighted. He says we were constantly taught that the world was evil, and while we were in the world, we must not be of the world. Basically, protect ourselves and set ourselves apart from the world while residing in it. It can make believers skittish of getting too associated with what could be perceived as worldly, carnal, or temporal, as the church would say. And so it's like his dad also used that to be like, well, don't make friends with anybody, don't talk to any producers, everybody in Hollywood's evil, and to the only person you can trust is me. And yeah, so it just it perpetuates the issue that he never has anybody, like his dad's causing the problems and he feels bad, but also he can't talk to anyone because they're all of the world and they're gonna like do bad things to him or corrupt him if he dares, you know, get close to them. But his dad still wants him to be a part of it, right? But like not too much, just enough to get enough money for me and to be famous for me and to live out my dreams for me, but no no more than that. Yeah, I don't know, I'm sure you guys can relate, but I had that same fear of like I can't become when I was a kid, like I can't become too close of friends with people who aren't Christians. Yes. Because like, well, for two reasons. One, like if I'm friends with them, I I need to be like actively evangelizing to them and like getting them to go to heaven. But two, like they could cause me to stray, and I need to surround myself. Like iron sharpens iron. I need to surround myself with the Christians. Yes. I think about that often how like I never had any like good friends at school. And all my friends were at church. Not to say like I didn't have friends at school, but like they weren't my close friends. I didn't go to their houses. I didn't like get invited to parties. I didn't like really do much with them outside of school. I was just going to school and they're my friends at school. But my real friends that I spent time with, and it's like that's such a bummer because it's like those were cool people, like nice people. And I just couldn't ever and I could never remove that barrier in my mind of like we shouldn't, you're not Christian, so we shouldn't be that close of friends. And uh, you know, I would like to repent for that if any of you guys are listening to the relate to that you are.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah. And if you are, you are trying to save them. I remember I had, I'm like, this is it sad that I'm like, I can only think of one friend that wasn't a Christian. Okay, so I do know that I had one friend who was an atheist growing up, like her parents were atheists, if she was an atheist. Um, and I remember being in the car with her mom and they put on Skater Boy, and I literally went home and confessed to my mother. And I was like, mom, I was in the car with April's mom and she was playing the radio, and like it wasn't K Love because, like, in my my house, it was like we were only allowed to listen to K Love. We weren't allowed to listen to that type of music. And my mom was actually like pretty chill about it. She she was like, Oh, we can't control what people play in their cars, Jubi. Um, because I confessed again, I remember when I was like 13 or 14, some this lady was a Christian, but she would drive us to school. And um yeah, basically she would always put on the radio hits and everything. And I remember apple bottom jeans like coming on the radio and me being like, we should not be listening to this. And I like went and told my mom again because I felt so much guilt that it wasn't K Love.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's unfortunately very.
AbigailYeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. And then you're like, why didn't I ever have friends at school? And it's like, oh, because I was like that. Didn't want to hang out with me because I was like, I'm so stressed out about the song on the radio. Like, yeah, uh it's a cycle, it's uh like relax, the vicious self-perpetuating cycle. Yeah. Um, okay, should we talk about idol?
American Idol Stress And Early Queerness
SPEAKER_04Yes. Ooh, idol. We can't wait. Yeah. Okay, I have a story before we get into idol.
AbigailPlease go on.
SPEAKER_04Okay. So Paula Abdul, right? She ended up writing the foreword for his book. So I think they've maintained a good relationship. I I did a video recently where I was saying the five nicest celebrities that I've met, and I should have said Paula Abdul. I totally forgot. Okay, so there was a time where I was a background actor in Atlanta, and this movie was terrible. It was um, what was it? The Impractical Jokesters? Is that what they're called? Uh-huh. Do you guys know those? Yeah. Yes. Okay, those people they had a movie that they were filming, and Paula Abdul was in it. And the whole thing was them going to a Paula Abdul concert. I don't really know. Um, but I was standing literally like this far away from her in the thing, and she kept talking to like, and they they will talk to you sometimes, but for the most part, the actors keep to themselves and stuff, and you're not supposed to engage with them unless they engage with you first. But she was talking to me and this guy for a long time, and she was saying, This is so much fun. And she said, My mom passed away recently, and she would be so proud of me for doing this. And like, my mom would love this, and she was just the sweetest, most angel human being, and she was just so happy. And that that set was trash. So honestly, the fact that she was had such a good attitude, um, that was probably one of the worst sets I've ever been on.
AbigailI love it when you find out that a celebrity that you think is cool, like lives up to that hype. Yes. Like, I think this about Josh Hutcherson. Like, I've heard many good things about him. Like, whenever he's on a podcast or he does an interview, like he he like lives up to the kind of person you hope he is. Yes. So I'm I'm glad to hear that about Paula Abdul. I think she is wonderful. She genuinely seemed like she cared about the contestants on Idol. She did. And I felt the same. Dolly Parton shows up in this a little bit, and um, she seems-I mean, I I think everyone knows that she is a genuinely kind person, but her interaction with David Archelletta was really tender too. So I love that. Yes, yes, but yes, okay, so David explains his audition process for Idol. Um, what he I think the first song that he sang was a gospel song, and I related to this so hard because he loves gospel music, and so do I. I feel like I don't really listen to Christian music at all anymore, but when I do, it's gospel music because it feels like a totally different thing to me. Um, but they were like, no, sing a song that's more you.
unknownYeah.
AbigailAnd this was like the first time that he that kind of felt like a moment for him where he was like, okay, no, like this is the kind of if I want to like please my father, yes, pursue fame, I kind of need to be more like a lover boy. Yes. You know, so then he's saying, I'll be by Edwin McCain. And uh he describes the audition process and uh eventually going to Hollywood. And then to kind of come back to what we were talking about, you know, he's this young guy and he's hanging out with all the other idol contestants, and they're like, you know, swearing around him and stuff, and he feels so like nervous and anxious about being around swearing and being around people who aren't Mormon. And just I felt so much compassion for him when he was talking about that.
SPEAKER_04Yes, me too. Imagine being everybody else, and there's this cute little teenager who looks so stressed out, you know, because they're just out there living their lives and he's so young. You know, and then you have his dad lurking behind him at all times. Yeah, killing the vibe.
AbigailI know. I just kept thinking if only he was just a little older, if only he was 18 when he got on idle and his dad didn't have to be there, and they surely would have kicked him out much sooner, then he might have been able to like make friends with these people and like maybe have his mind open a little bit sooner, but it's just such a bummer that he's just like, Oh yeah, you just fell for him. Like, he's just so worried all the time. And you're like, he's living social time. Yeah, I get it. And honestly, like he was he's so talented. His dad, even from like his dad, who thinks he's controlling everything and like running everything. By the way, like he has not been home in such a long time. The dad is just like taking David, homeless, living with him in hotels, yes, in cars, making David do all this crazy stuff. Yes, he finds out that he has a paralyzed vocal cord. It's like this whole thing. Yes. And um, his dad honestly like takes the legs out from his career multiple times, in my opinion. Like, uh yes, I think the the way that he runs his the way that he like manages his entire run on idol, the years immediately following, honestly held him back so far. Like he was getting so many cool offers, was able to do so many cool things. He wasn't able to make this experience his own. And he the his dad ends up causing a lot of problems with the idol producers and getting in news and like gossip articles about being like horrible stage dad.
SPEAKER_04Which I don't remember this. Like when I opened this memoir, I I knew nothing about his dad. No, I didn't know that there was any drama or anything. Yeah.
AbigailYeah. But I would I'd imagine like I wasn't personally not exposed to like people magazine like at that age. So at that age. That probably wasn't something that I would have known of. But yeah, it is, it is, it was it was strange to read. I think also, right, during his time on Idol was when he started being like, Wait, do I think boys are cute? Yeah, started happening a lot sooner, but during Idol, he talks to one of his fellow um, I don't know, castmates. What do they call them? Competitors? He has a yeah, like a a there's like a queer competitor. Contestants, thank you. And yeah, and he's like, Oh, they don't think that this is bad, that I that like being queer is bad. And it's like starting to like confuse him, I think, a little bit more at this point. And he's like, I'm around all these first times. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04He's like, there are girls here, there are boys.
AbigailHe's only known, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, he's only known this like very narrow worldview. I mean, it reminds me me growing up. I remember my parents did used to let us stay up late to watch the amazing race because we loved the amazing race. Um, but uh my parents, uh, they would fast forward through gay people, you know, and um like at times that would be shut up. Or like if there was a couple that was living together, I remember, you know, them looking at me and being like, just so you know they're living in sin and this is not okay. Like we don't support this. So it was, you know, it would be a lot. I assume it's very similar for David, you know. So it's it's rough. You know, you're finally in this Hollywood sector that your dad is like kind of forcing you to be in, but he's also like, don't be involved. And then you're hearing people say, Well, maybe this isn't so wrong. And he probably, when he first had those thoughts, because I think he said that he was young, I think he was like eight or something. Six to six to eight, yeah, somewhere in there, where he said, Oh, I feel those same butterflies towards my guy friend that I feel. Yeah, yeah. Uh towards my girlfriend, you know. So yeah. I mean, I think just opening himself up to a different sector, it's when things start to shift a little bit.
AbigailYeah. I mean, in my own experience, I think, and maybe this is similar for him too, it's not even a thought that crosses his mind because it's just not discussed, period. Yeah. It's like you grow up and you get married to someone of the opposite sex, and that is all and then like you something happens and you have a baby. And don't worry about it. Something happens, don't really know what, but it's gonna be good, but only if you do it when you're married. But then it's like the the there's never an option in your mind of like, oh, what what is being gay? What is being bisexual? Or I think like in my experience, it's like there's being gay or there's being straight. And there's no like spectrum in between, like there's no like possibility. So, okay, like so. For David, he's like, Oh, I like girls, so I can't be gay. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I like girls, I can't be queer. Like because I like girls. I I kiss that girl, I have a crush on girls, like I'm attracted to some of the women that are unidle. Right. So it just never, it's like his brain, because of all of the pressure he's under and the stress and the implications of going to heaven and hell and all this stuff, he can't conceive of like there's not there's not this mental space for him to explore sexuality. Yeah. And I get that. Like, there's just not the capacity in his in his body to deal with it. So it's just not gonna get dealt with right now. We're just pushing it back.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. And when it comes to being bisexual in those sectors, like, oh my gosh, at least in my sector, it was so not respected. Um, I have so many friends who are bisexual who they were told if you can make it work with the opposite sex, you have to. Yeah, like if you even have a sliver of attraction, then that's what you need to do. Just be glad that you're not fully gay. Yeah. You know what I mean?
AbigailSo or like with David, and we'll get to Jackie Hill Perry later. She comes up later in this book. That's what I say. I've allowed to say about that. But like for David, also, he's at a young age getting bright and thrust into the spotlight as like this lover boy, heartthrob, crush, you know, like all of the girls love him, like all so many teenage girls calling in to vote for David. And that also probably does a number on you mentally when you are also having crushes on boys, being like, okay, I'm being like, I'm being basically typecast as like this ultra straight person, you know? And what does it mean for even my blossoming career and my fame if I'm having queer thoughts? Absolutely. Um, and also he's like trying to do school, but he can't do school because he's always having to go out to idols. It was a lot. And then when he loses to David Cook in the finale, I thought this was so interesting. He was almost relieved. Yeah. Yeah. He was so happy for David, and he was almost relieved that he didn't have to be embarrassed. Like he did not want to go home.
SPEAKER_01He just wanted to go home. He didn't want to perform.
AbigailShe had so much pressure on him. Yeah. He was just a baby. Like he just wanted to go back to the city. Yeah, or to your point, Emily, when he when they had the Dolly Parton episode, and she he decided to sing um the song about like my Tennessee Mountain home. Yeah. Because he was like, it reminds me of Utah. That was heartbreaking. And she's like, You nobody she's like, Why did you sing this song? Not a lot of people know this one. And he was like, she was like, I think you sing it because you feel it the way I felt when I wrote it. Like, Dolly. I just wanted to like cuddle him up to my bosom and just like even at the end stroke his back. I was like, I just want to argue. Nobody hurt him. Oh get behind me, David. Ah, yeah. Just yeah, such a bummer. Anything else you guys want to say about his stent on idol? No, just it was crazy. It was crazy thinking about again being a minor and having to do school where the other competitors are being able to, you know, practice, and all that was like you just think about learning a song, coming up with a new arrangement towards the end. They have to do multiple songs a week, sometimes group songs with other people or other artists. And it's like all of that, and trying to like you're required to go to school like three or four hours a day or something, and then his dad, like that's just a lot on its own. If you even take out the like controlling stuff, the religious stuff, just being a minor and being on American Idol seems like a nightmare. And then you add everything else, and on top of that, it was just crazy schedule. Um, and he said multiple times like that he doesn't really remember a lot. He had to like rewatch the episodes to like jog his own memory. It's all just kind of like a blur for him. Not surprising.
SPEAKER_04No, not at all, but just satisfying probably just making it through every day, you know. And he he had to grow up so fast, you know. Like I wish that he had gotten the opportunity to just chill and be a kid instead of like really trying to build this career that his dad that he didn't even want to honestly, that his dad wanted for himself, you know, because he was just living vicariously through it.
AbigailAnd then we didn't even mention this, but in the background of all of this, there's lots of family tension because his
Post-Idol Control And Money Abuse
Abigaildad is being an absentee father to all of his other siblings, yeah, not being present in his marriage, and because of um because he and his because his father and mother had a temple-sealed marriage in the Mormon church, getting a his mom wants a divorce, but he his dad is making that almost impossible because you have to like do a written request and like prove to the powers that be within the Mormon church that you deserve a divorce. So his mom is basically trapped in this marriage. He misses his mom, he misses his sisters, he knows his sisters feel resentment against him because he's getting all the attention from his dad and he doesn't even want it. So it's a lot going on. That's the mindset he's going into post-American Idol. Um, when he uh starts, like he goes on this idol tour, he he does something with he goes like on a tour with Demi Lovato, which is great.
SPEAKER_03Totally forgot it. Like, that's so fun. That's so fun. I love Demi Lovato growing up, me too. Me too.
AbigailAnd it's just uh he was like Demi Lovato was so like free, like she was just like, you know, f you know, and like she was like cussing and like being free and cool and normal, and he was so stressed out by that. Yes, like every interaction he has with other people his age depressed me because it's like he's always just so scared. Like there's a point where Miley Syrers like asked him to go get sushi because he did a guest star appearance on Hannah Montana or something, I don't know. And um he's like, No, I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_01He's like, Why didn't I just go get sushi with her?
AbigailIt's just but then just left for when he meets Jeanette McCurdy, yeah. Shout out to it. So I was like Jeanette McCurdy mentioned, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um gosh, I loved her memoir. So it was amazing.
AbigailIt was so good, it was so tough. And you're like, oh yeah, you guys get each other. Yeah, y'all get each other, yeah. And I'm so glad he met her. Me too, me too. And I thought it was funny that of course everyone's trying to set them up together, and they're like, We just I genuinely I just found someone who like sees me, like someone who understands like gets me at all. Yeah. Um, also during this time, as David's starting to make some money, his dad really amps up the financial abuse because now he's over 18. He's controlling who his manager is, he's controlling, you know, he's like, I need you to send me more money. I need you to send money for this. And uh David is getting all of these opportunities to to like make music with people and do songs, and he's having to turn them down because his dad says so. And that broke my heart too. Cause I'm like, imagine what the early stage of his career could have been if he was empowered to like take these awesome opportunities and make music with big name people.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah, but I feel like he thought that he had to do whatever his dad said because he felt like every time I've listened to my dad in the past, like my dad picks my songs, my dad tells me what exactly to do. And his dad kind of in his mind had this leg to stand on of, well, I have picked your career so far, and you're here because of my discernment over your life and like what you should be doing, and hasn't it worked out well? So yeah, and then it's still the whole priesthood thing, even though at this point, was he an adult at this point? Yes, yeah, he turned to the adult. I think, or at some point, but he still feels like he has to respect his dad. Yes.
AbigailUm, and also like there's a couple times where, like you said, he like during idle, he does his own arrangement and it goes really poorly, or like things don't work out when he tries to take control, and when he listens to his dad, it goes really well. And so he's like, Okay, well, maybe my dad does know the best. And then his dad will be like, See, when you listen to what I say, it goes well. When you trust, he let his dad literally is like, you can't trust yourself, you can only trust me. Yeah, if someone says that to you, they are abusing you.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, but that's what we're taught in religion. Yeah, so I think that's where it's hard. It's like that that whole mindset is so ingrained, so it's very easy to just I don't know, buy into it because it's like, well, yeah. I mean, I I'm a hardest deceitful of a lot. Yeah, yeah.
AbigailWe can't trust my heart, can't trust the impulses of my body, my righteousness is his filthy rags. I just gotta trust my dad and God and the church, yeah. And so so he starts overcorrecting, right? So he's like, he's feeling all this stress, whatever. So
The Chile Mission And Same-Sex Attraction
Abigailhe's going back to the thing he knows, and the thing he knows is faith, and he knows how to be a good Mormon. And he's like, if I can just be a good Mormon, things will be okay. So he is he he's always going to to church, he's going to the temple in Los Angeles. Um, he's like trying to make a lot of Mormon friends, and he decides, you know what? I'm gonna go on a Mormon mission. I'm gonna do my mission, I'm gonna take time off my career. And it's funny because he's like, I'm using my mission as a way to get away from my dad. How to get out of here. Yeah. So I'm gonna take what I can get. I'll take what I can get. So he gets sent to uh Chile, right? Yes. Am I remembering that right? You're right, you're right. He goes to he goes to Chile, and um he can't outrun the homosexuality though, because he is attracted to his Mormon mission partner, which I feel like has gotta be so common.
SPEAKER_04Dude, I have-they never allowed to be alone. Like they always have you guys heard this? I've seen people share on TikTok that like the only time you're allowed to be separate is when someone goes to the bathroom, but even then you're supposed to like stand by the door. Yeah. So like imagine being in that close proximity to somebody at all times, and then you on top of that you're attracted. Yeah. Yeah.
AbigailLike I saw this uh because here's the thing. I need to find her, but there's a woman on TikTok who has been, I've seen her a couple times, and she fell in love with her mission partner, and they're married now, and they have left Mormonism on the case.
SPEAKER_04I have a folder, but yeah. I have a folder on my TikTok that uh is like potential healdish guests. I have her in there because I'm like, I need to reach out to her because that story is everything to me. Me too. I have a book.
AbigailGood for you guys. But I need a book about that, a romance book about Mormon mission, like male male Mormon mission.
unknownBut
AbigailBut um honestly okay wait ao3.com but sure it's there or dot work but um they um pair them with missionary partners of the same sex because they're like oh we're trying to prevent premarital sex but instead they're awakening a generation of repressed gay people because many such cases because here's the thing these 19-year-old boys like Emily's see this is Julie, this is what Emily's gonna censor me for these 19-year-old boys like that okay, that's how people discover they are are gay. So um that is basically what's happening with David Archuletta. Also he's like, but at the same time, he's like, you know what I have to do to fix this? I need to like find a nice Mormon girl. So he's like trying to be pen popped.
SPEAKER_04That's how you fix it, yeah.
AbigailYeah, with all of these different Mormon girls on his mission and whatever. Then he decides he's gonna go to uh one of their mission leaders, their priests or whatever. And he's like, Look, I have to confess, like, I am having same sex attraction, which I'd actually like to take a pause here. And he raised in this book something I think is very telling the use of the term same-sex attracted versus gay. Um, do you guys want to draw it?
SPEAKER_04Or like I I was always taught that that if you say I'm gay or I'm bisexual, that's you owning it, especially in Bethel circles. They would say, because they were all spiritual. So they would say it's almost like a word curse that you're putting on yourself. You're taking it into your identity, you're coming into agreement with the term.
AbigailSo God, the way that shiver just ran down my spine at agreement. Oh my god. I need to like shake that off. Hold on. Okay. Coming into the wrong thing.
SPEAKER_04Do not come into agreement with the lies from the enemies. So it's this way to get that sentiment across without owning it and accepting that that is how it's going to be forever.
AbigailYes, I and that's why it's so important that people be empowered to live their identity. Exactly. That's why that is the importance of it. Like you could be someone who is um attracted to multiple genders or the opposite gender or the same gender as you, whatever. And you feel like you could be like, you know, abstinent or single or whatever, or like, oh, there's no need for me to like say this because I am, you know, it doesn't really have to do with me right now. But it is important that people be able to live into their identity because there are people, there are forces that are actively trying to get you to to like be unaligned with that, to be misaligned with that as a form of control. Yeah, it's um the yeah, the the the rampant amount of people that I have encountered in my life who were like, I'm same-sex attracted, I'm just gonna be single forever. And it breaks my heart to think about that every time because it's like like David comes to that point where he's like, Well, the Bible says it's not good for people to be alone, but you're telling me I need to be like that's the only cure for me, is to be alone because God won't heal me above this, even though I'm praying and I'm praying, and it's just like I could get emotional talking about it, but yeah, that's what's calling it same-sex attracted is making it a sin. Uh, because gay is like, oh, gay, whatever. But like, oh, I'm same-sex attracted. Well, this is something I struggle with. Well, then this is something God can heal me from, so it's actually not my identity, it's not who I am. I'm not even really gay. I've just been tempted in this way. Like some people, you know, are easy to lie, or like some people, uh, I don't know, steal. Like, I'm gonna be healed one day of this. And it's just so it's just it's sick. It is pervasive. So yeah. Yeah. And at that time, he doesn't even, you know, he like learns the term bisexual, right? He's like, oh, maybe this could fit with me. I think he now identifies as queer. Um, but like, right, those words aren't he does that language doesn't exist, the options don't exist. So when he goes to tell his mission leader, look, I have to confess I'm so stressed out, I'm having these same sex-attracted thoughts. The leader essentially, in so many words, is like, that's okay. You can still be a good Mormon and be attracted to people the same gender, just don't act on it. Like in the Mormon church, you get married to a wife, you know, like you you would have a wife. So, you know, it's fine, but just focus on finding a girl, focus on finding like a nice Mormon girl, right? That's essentially what he said.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. No, and it's so it's so hard because there really is two options that I heard growing up was yeah, the whole be single forever, which is sad. It's just very sad. And then the other one is yeah, just find somebody. So I actually had um a family member who I don't talk to anymore because the uh I don't know if y'all know the lore of my maid of honor stealing from me on my wedding day. Um, it was horrible, but this person was connected to that, right? Uh, but he was my best friend for so many years and he is very gay, like not bisexual, gay, you know? And um, he would say, Well, I'm just gonna find a girl. And we tell him, Well, I think we really need to think about is that fair to her? Yeah. Because you're not attracted to them at all, like at all, at all. And he's like, Well, I don't know, like I can look at someone and think they're pretty. Yeah. You know? Um, and it's just this hard thing of it feels like those are the two options to either get into a relationship with somebody and you're not honest with them about the fact that you're not attracted to them, and you just kind of hope that in faith you'll quote unquote be healed of this sin when you get married. Like maybe God will, because I've heard people say this as well that they were told that if you get married in faith, yeah, God is going to make the attraction happen after you get married because we'll get to you, Jackie Hill Perry. Oh gosh, yeah. But it's horrible. Yeah. So I'm not surprised that that's what his bishop said.
AbigailNot at all. Not at all. Um, but yeah. And he also talked a lot about during his mission how uh like any form of physical touch was so sinful and dirty and bad, and like how he never hugged anybody or like felt comfortable being close to anyone in any kind of physical way. And that like got me too. And so we just talked about like hugging people for the first time, not being guilty about like not giving someone like an awkward side hug, but like a but that's so real. Like you're told, don't hug me like full frontal. I don't know, like I understand this. Like, okay, I'm not even gonna like you're told like flee from temptation. Okay, so I'm not even gonna do anything, it's all bad, it's all evil. It's like don't touch anybody. Like, that's not good either. So it's just uh it was a lot. And he's well, he's been repressing his sexuality for so long, even even his like attraction to women, he is repressed it for so long. Like he talks in the book about like not masturbating because he's like, This is wrong. So he's like, you know, he's like in his 20s, like, I mean, look, he puts this in the book. He's like, I'm in my 20s having wet dreams. Like, this is because I'm so repressed, but he is also so repressed that when he's like giving people hugs after the the Mormon mission, he's feeling guilty because he's feeling a little aroused when he's hugging people, and it's like it's not your fault, it's the fact that you're so repressed. That's what's so repressed. It's like it's not there's nothing wrong with you, but like this thing, like you have to be able to express what's happening in your body, and not doing that is causing everything to feel like it's wrong, you know? Yeah, and he has no one to talk about not to about it. Um, but there are good things about his mission too, you know. He he gets more of a sense of um his own identity, you know, comes into like more hit of himself, and and also his bishop tells him that his dad is abusing him, yeah, which was good. Oh god, that was a good thing that happened, yes.
SPEAKER_04Because he definitely was. Oh I mean, the way that his dad was treating him was horrible, and the financial stuff. I mean, his dad would how much money was he saying?
AbigailI mean, he would have large sums of money, yes, yeah, yes, and meanwhile, David is supporting his mom and his family. He buys his mom a house. And you know, the thing thankfully, the the bishop was like, even though he told him to repress his his skay feelings, he was like, You need to cut ties with your dad, he's abusing you. Yeah, and um that was a win. So I'm I'm glad that happened for him. Absolutely. Um, he also comes into like really feeling comfortable with his singing again because and he says like he feels conflicted about it now. He's like, was I you know manipulating sorry, manipulating people by like you know, heightening their emotions, but he finally feels like like for the first time like peace and joy like singing for people in public, which is crazy after like winning almost winning American Idol. This is the first time where he's like, Oh, I just am enjoying like performing. Yeah, this was kind of like college for him, right? This is like his free adulthood, like the thing he got to do to go away from home, be his own person, like discover some things about himself, even though it was still in like this high control environment. But like, I don't know, we've talked about this before. Like, you know, Emily and I both went to a very Christian college. I don't know if I would have been ready to go to like in my mindset, if I would have been ready to go to like a a secular school, like a like a state school or something like that, in the mindset I was when I was 18. Absolutely. Um, so I've yeah, I've thought about that a lot. I think almost if I had gone to like a super secular school, I would have probably doubled down more because it would have felt like instead of deconstructing I'm the only person, I have to be, you know, you keep staying in that mindset. And so I I wonder if like this is what was best for him of like he was able to question some things in a still safe way, and he saws people connected to his faith telling him, Hey, you're not this isn't okay what's happening to you. Um, and versus if he hadn't done this, maybe he would have never gotten to where he is today. So he didn't think about that, Jubilee. Do you think that if you hadn't gone to Bethel, you would have stayed a Christian? Or I mean, not that you're not a Christian, I don't know how you identify now, but like do you would have stayed really religious?
SPEAKER_04But I think I was on a weird track before, like I had that supernatural healing at a Heidi Baker conference, you know? So I think if I hadn't gone to Bethel, I think I still would have been very, very religious had the Heidi Baker thing happened. But before the Heidi Baker thing happened, I was, I feel like I was already starting to deconstruct a bit. I was already having a lot of thoughts and feelings. But I think that my college was doing the background acting in Atlanta. That was a big thing for me because I think I was around 23 or so when me and my ex moved to Atlanta so that he could own Disney and get involved in the film industry and own Disney someday. So, I mean, being on sets and getting to talk to people who are different than me, that was huge.
AbigailYeah, yeah. Gosh, so young. You're so young. Yeah. Baby. Um okay. So speaking of being young, David comes back from his mission and he's like, I'm in bolden. I'm gonna like lay down the law with my dad. Yeah. So proud of my baby. Good job. You did a great job. Good job, baby. I was so proud of him for doing it. My close personal friend. David's also David Archelletta. So proud of him. Then there we're we're muddying the timeline here because this starts kind of before his mission. He has three failed engagements to Mormon women.
SPEAKER_01Dude. Like, just be gay. Be gay. Don't stop getting engaged.
SPEAKER_04You know what's so funny is reading this, he really reminds me of somebody that I knew at Bethel. And okay, to this day, he has never come out, I don't think. So I can't say, but let's just say I have vibes. I have vibes. And he has also been engaged three times. And it it every engagement has fallen through. And I have no idea what I the last I heard of him was probably like eight years ago. So maybe he's married now. Who knows? But I just remembered being like, why, why are all of these engagements falling apart, you know?
AbigailYeah. And it's kind of like he's waiting for it. It's like one of those things. Go ahead, Emily. No, like if you're if you're thinking that God is ordaining every step of your life, and then these women keep appearing in your life who like want to marry you, that's like almost what keeps happening to him, where he's like, Well, I I kind of like her, and she's nice, and she's Mormon, and she wants to marry me, so I guess then this must be God. And it's like also he desperately wants it to work out, like he wants to not be gay or like to you know be able to make it work with a woman and to do what he's supposed to do. And it's just like you see how it keeps happening, but it is it was so tough to read that this kept happening.
SPEAKER_01Like, please stop, stop buying engagement rings, stop, and they're not cheap, like they keep getting more expensive.
AbigailHe keeps buying like five thousand dollar engagement rings, like bro, and then like not being able to return them. Yeah, like well, like he's like panic buying them, it's like I don't know what to do. Uh just he's like spinning out. Yeah, I was in his own.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it never felt like sorry.
AbigailOkay, go ahead.
SPEAKER_04I was gonna say, it never felt like it was a real emotional decision of something that he really, really wanted. It's this strategic thing of I need to find someone, sure, this door looks good, you know, and buying rings, just so many rings. So you know, and um so many.
AbigailAnd like the thing is too, is he was physically attracted to them, right? Because you know, he still is like I'm attracted to women, but he is like, I'm stressing out because I know there's this other thing about me that I need to explore that I haven't, and I like you know, all of this feels manufactured and not real, and I I can't be my true and honest self with these women. But I was gonna say it was also like the thing, like yeah, like when Pete Buttigieg was running for president, and they're like, he would be like the first out gay president. It's like we're saying that because like maybe there's been other ones, but they weren't out, you know. I think we know. Like, you know what I mean? But anyway, um so yeah, there's he's in a 90-day fiance situation. He's in he none of these women live nearby, by the way. They're all which I think is part of this. Yeah, he's always picking women who live in like different continents. Yes.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, not spending like much time in person with them, you know. I feel like it's easier that way.
AbigailI don't they all and they all fizzle out, some some better than others, whatever. And he finally he reaches his rock bottom after the the dissolving of one of these, the dissolution of one of these engagements, where he's like, I can't do this anymore. I have to like I'm gonna die basically if I don't try and explore my sexuality, which that was so heartbreaking.
Rock Bottom And Coming Out Online
AbigailAnd I was so thankful for him for sharing that vulnerability. Um, because there's probably some young person who's gonna read this who will relate to that. Um, of just being like, it's it's I do this or I take my life. Yeah, basically, was where what he came to. And that is the reality for so many young queer people. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, he said, I tried everything to change that and nothing worked. I went on a mission and was an obedient servant. I confess, felt shame, and repented. I'd been engaged three times, currently to Aaron, a wonderful woman who deserved better of me. I tried therapy and that got me nowhere. I prayed so many times, God had apparently given up on me. I kept praying anyway, wondering why I bothered doing it. Just like, God, it just uh Wait. By the way, when he goes to the Christian therapist who tries to use EMDR to cure him of being gay. That made me so sick. Horrific. It made me so sick. In fact, that made that makes my stomach irk, saying still to this day, yes. To this day, as if I didn't read this like half an hour ago.
SPEAKER_04I'm still feeling sick. And I'm sure, yeah, I'm sure she thinks that there was nothing wrong with that. Like, I mean, I'm sure there are so many people who stand behind that. But going back to what you were saying about um just that idea that that he was really struggling with was I will I will die if if I don't explore this. And I feel like there are a lot of people who've deconstructed or they relate to that. I know I do, because when I left my ex, I very much was in this mindset of if I don't get divorced, which I thought, okay, if I get divorced, I'm going to hell, you know. But if I don't get divorced, I'm gonna die. You know, like I was to the point where I had made packs with myself in my mind of if it ever gets to the point where I feel like I'm gonna take my life, I'm gonna have to get divorced. I mean, that that's really the only thing, you know. But I remember when things got really bad, I'd be like laying in bed at night and daydreaming about one of us getting hit by a car. Like I hope that one of us dies, you know, and I was like, that would be fine. And I remember at one point when I was living in Atlanta, I got hit by a drunk driver. And I remember lying in bed next to my ex and thinking, I think he wishes that I died in in that accident, you know, and I was just in such a dark place, you know. So I can really relate to kind of that breaking point where you're like, I know that I'm going to disappoint people and it's gonna ruin everything and my life is gonna fall apart, but I will literally die if I don't choose something different than what I've done.
AbigailTakes over. And like the thing that got you there was a high control religion that told you that you needed to be in these circumstances. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, yeah. Um so he decides to come out as queer on Instagram. And he has a moment with God too, where he feels or like he feels like he hears the voice of God and he's like praying, and he feels like he hears God say, like, you keep asking me to heal. I kind of talking about this, but like you keep asking me to heal you, and you need to stop asking for that because like the way that you are is fine. And he says later, like, I do I think that was God, or is this just me like finally able to accept myself? I don't know, but like I just thought that was such a powerful moment of like I think a lot of people do need to hear that. There is nothing wrong with you, there's nothing for any God to heal, like you are okay the way you are, and this like pressure of trying to fix yourself of something that's not wrong with you is the reason. Because I think like some people might read this if you're a Jackie Hillberry fan, you might read this story of him coming out and be like, Well, you did have attraction to women. Why was this such a big deal? Why couldn't you just like make it work? And I think there is something of like if you can't accept yourself, like it doesn't matter. It just like you're never gonna be free, you know? And so I just really like that moment of like there's nothing wrong with you, and him feeling like he heard God say that. And that was what drove him to come. I was shocked how I would have thought that he had had that moment, and then like a year or two passed and he was posting on Instagram, but it was like half an hour later, he's like, I'm just gonna come out. He was like, I gotta do it. Good for him.
SPEAKER_04I love that. I love that. Yeah, he was like, I made my decision, I'm gonna do it. And like you said, I really loved that he didn't try to dismiss that experience that he had when he felt like God was talking to him. Because I think a lot of us have had experiences where felt like we heard God, and then now that we've deconstructed, we're like, I don't know. It's like kind of this gray area, but you don't want to diminish the experiences that you had. And I feel like he did a really good job of explaining that situation.
AbigailI think so too.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
Church Pushback And Ex-Gay Narratives
AbigailUm, and you know, I think the interesting thing is he's like, I can be queer and be a Mormon. I actually still really want to be a Mormon. Like, I I love God, I want to go to church, I want to like be faithful and still do the things I'm supposed to do. I just think that I can date men, and that's okay. Yeah. Um, is kind of where he's at. And uh, you know, slowly over time, that erodes because he no longer becomes he he no longer like is advantageous to the Mormon church. So they just kind of slowly ice him out, and it's that process that actually is what leads him to deconstruct and leave Mormonism. Yeah, is that you know, of it's the way he's treated after he comes out. Um, not everything that came before that, you know. Um so he starts, you know, he comes out to some of his close friends, his family, and and then somebody reaches out and gives him is like, hey, she's like she's not a Mormon, she's an like an evangelical Christian. I was like, here, I have this book for you, and it's God and the gay, or it's uh the girl, the girl, good God. Yeah. Who among us has done that's not.
SPEAKER_04I actually don't know that much about her. Okay. I I've stitched I've stitched one of her videos, but I didn't even know who she was. And then everybody was commenting, like, oh my gosh, her. And then I I know a bit, I've seen clips here and there, but I feel like I haven't done the full deep dive on situation.
AbigailIs like the object lesson, object example that uh like homophobic Christians use of like God can heal you from being gay. So she was like she was an out lesbian in a long-term committed relationship with a woman, and then decided that that was sin. And so she asked God to heal her from being a lesbian, and now she's married to a man and has three kids. Yeah. Yeah. Um and it's like, okay, do what you want to do with your own life, I guess. But her whole platform is built around trying to deliver, quote unquote, deliver people from homosexuality the same way, and that's like her whole thing. And you know, there are many people I that Emily and I know from growing up or from college who uh like Jackie Hill Perry kept them in the closet. Yeah. Like the example of who she was, who she is, and like her story. Um, so it felt angering to read that in this book that someone tried to put David back in the closet by giving him a Jackie Hill Perry book. I think in some ways she can be like a gateway for people who are very, very homophobic to take a step and see gay people as human beings. I do think that that she probably serves that. Um, and and like I think she serves that role for a lot of people. However, I think she's also used in this way as a weapon of like, well, God healed her, so you just gotta be more faithful and and and he'll get to you, you know. Like you could one day have a wife or a husband or whatever the appropriate, you know, gendered spouse for you is. Um, and that's not not good.
SPEAKER_04So it's this quote unquote success story, you know. I yeah, I I think back to gosh, I I had completely forgotten about this, but I used to work at Chick-fil-A when I was 14. And I remember, of course I did. Oh my gosh, I quit after three months because I cried every day. Okay. Like I'm not emotionally mature enough for this job. Um, I was like a baby, but I remember uh that there was a coworker that I had there who was a very strong Christian, and she ended up opening up to me and sharing her testimony with me. Um, I went to a black church for the first time, and it was such a vibe. Like I loved it. Uh it was like this Christmas service that lasted like five hours. I ended up leaving because I was like, I can't stay this long for I was like, I can't stay. Um, but I remember she opened up and told me your testimony, and she said, Yeah, well, I was a lesbian and I was married to a woman, and we had two adopted children. And then I got saved and I left my wife and kids.
AbigailOkay, note for the audio, me and Emily, our mouths are a game. Shock. Visibly, visibly shocked.
SPEAKER_04Not the kids. And I I know, and I remember like sitting, I don't know, maybe she like still sees her kids. I don't know, but I just remember it was very much phrased, like, and I left that life behind. And at the time, I definitely thought that being gay was wrong because that's what I was taught in youth group and stuff. But I remember in my gut, I was like, that's terrible. Yeah. Like, like, you know, like even in my indoctrination, I thought, I feel so bad for your wife. That that's so traumatic. Can you imagine that happening? Being married, and then this person just leaving you because they say they found God. And it's supposedly this beautiful testimony, but I remembered being horrified. And I feel like that was the spark of my deconstruction around being gay. Was it just felt not not right to me?
AbigailYeah, that is damn. Wow. Yeah. It's pretty bad. Yeah, David starts to experience what it's like to be like uh okay with himself, yeah, and the reaction of his world to him being okay with himself and uh dating men, and that is what eventually drives him out of the church. Um he has this elder that he like repeatedly opens up to and has all these conversations with, and he's like an old guy, and they like have decent in interactions, and he's like, please let me come talk to the like apostles or I don't know what their leadership structure is, something like that. And he's like, Okay, okay, I'll see. And then he like basically ghosts him, and I'm just like, uh, yeah, man, who among us has not never heard from people that we thought we were really close to again after no longer going to church, you know? But it's just like so traumatizing, and it's so he was the Mormon golden boy, yeah, you know, he was he was a prop for them, yes, he was helpful, he had access to this the highest echelon of power in the Mormon church because of his notoriety and his career. And when he no longer fit that mold, uh he was no longer useful to them. So yeah, and he says to the that elder, this I highlighted this. He's he's like, You tell me the story about how you met your wife and how it was the greatest joy of your life the day you saw her. And he says, For that, for that, for you, that feeling brought the greatest joy of your life. But for me, I have been told to consider that same feeling as evil. What was your greatest blessing is something I might be punished for. How am I supposed to make sense of that? I was like, David. But that's like one of the last conversations they have. So that was just yeah, that that felt so relatable and and bummed me out. But it's also like, yeah, there's people that the last day I went to church was the last day I've ever heard from them. And I thought like that they were people who mentored me or like that I could trust. And it's just weird that it's so easy for yeah, people once you're no longer a part of something to be like, well, never speak to you again.
Healing After Mormonism And Music Again
AbigailYeah. Period. Well, he found a better life on the other side of it. And the last part of the book is him talking about what life has been like since then. Um, dating and a lot of healing with his family, you know, some repair with his dad. He he has a he has um a brother who has uh some severe mental illnesses and um you know working on repairing with his sister, and his mom got remarried to a really great guy. So he talks about that and a little bit of his life after, and um now kind of reconnecting to making music and being healed enough to like money to want to like explore that more and feeling like he's actually able to like tap into his own songwriting and his own creativity through the healing that he's done. And that's pretty much how he ends the book, right? Yeah, and I just want to say that's what's amazing to to David to be as honest as he was in this book. If I I don't know if he had a co-writer, I don't feel like he did. It felt very much like he wrote this from his heart, and he was very like you said, there was times I was like, Whoa, I can't believe he's like telling me about his like wet dreams that he's experiencing as a kid. But like he was just so honest, and I really do think this is going to be so healing for so many people because like yeah, I don't know, he was just very open and honest about the journey he's gone on and um the healing that still has to happen, and it's not like a linear thing. So I I really even if you listen to this and you've been spoiled, I think you should listen to or read the book or listen to it, whatever method you just have. There's a lot we didn't cover, yeah. So I thought it was really wonderful of him to share. He seems like a genuinely wonderful person, yeah, definitely does.
SPEAKER_04And guys, guess what? He's gonna go. But okay, here's what happened. So David is gonna be coming on Healedish, and um, it's because I had Maddie Zom on, who I love Maddie. Like her music got me through 2020. Um, and what happened? I had had her on Healedish previously, and then I was just posting on my Instagram stories, and I posted a picture of the book, and I said dream healdish guest, right? And then Maddie responded to my story and she said, Oh, let me text him. I was like, okay, sure. Um, I because I guess they're really, really good friends. And then yeah, it took a couple weeks, but we ended up setting it up. So I'm actually recording with him in four days, and I'm so I'm very excited. I will no, I'm so excited.
AbigailUm dude, that is so good. This is a great example of like put what you want out into the universe. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_04Right? Yeah. Yeah, I have a vision board, and I have one of the things I'd put on it was if you don't ask, the answer is always no. So true. Yes. So getting Maddie on the podcast originally, I remember I was looking at that and I'd had like a glass of wine, and I think it was 10 p.m. at night, and I was like, I'm just gonna DM her and see if she'll come on. And within 20 minutes, she responded and said, Yeah, that sounds great. And I literally just fell to my floor and cried. Because I was like, in what world do I get to do an interview with her? That's so cool. And all of that has led to now David's coming on. So put it out there. Yeah, say what you want.
AbigailSo everybody, if you haven't listened to Jubilee's well, Jubilee has two podcasts. One is Healedish, that's what David's gonna be on, and the other is the Overshare Hour. Um which you have been on.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I've been on both.
AbigailYou could start by listening to my episodes. But uh definitely look out for the David Archuletta uh interview. I can't wait. No, I'm so coming in and coming weeks, I'm sure. Yeah. Um anything else we want to say about Dart David Archuletta before we move on to recent reads. No, just love him. Love him. I really loved this book. I'm so glad we did this.
Jubilee Books, Recent Reads, And Goodbye
AbigailI probably wouldn't have read it otherwise, but yeah. Good for the Sean Review for the rest of the day. Yeah. Um, okay, Jubilee, we do this thing to end the podcast where we just talk about a recent book that we read and we just kind of go round Robin. If you I've been reading so many books recently. Oh, good. Uh do you would you like to start or do you want one of us to go first?
SPEAKER_04You can go first.
AbigailSo you have a second to think about it. Yeah. Valid. Uh actually, uh let me pull up my story graph really quick. I can go first because all I've read lately is a terrible book that I won't recommend. Okay, go off. I read Sounds Like Love by Ashley Poston, and I love her other books. I've recommended them on here. This was the only reason I finished it was because I was doing a buddy we'd read with a friend. It was not good. It has a man bun. It has um her family calling her. Her family calls everyone in their family heart as a nickname. So, like every other sentence, they're like, Oh, I love you, heart. You're my heart. Uh come here, heart. It's just too much. Um, the plot is weird. They can read each other's minds, which you know, I love to yearn. I feel like if you can read someone's mind, it really cuts back on the amount of yearning that's going on.
SPEAKER_04Yearning is dead.
AbigailAnd you've liked some of her other books, right? I have loved her other books I've read. Uh, they were five stars each, and this one was two. So I don't recommend this. Um, but so that's it. I have nothing else. I did get back on Kindle Unlimited. I'm once again trying to defraud Jeff Bezos by reading more Kindle Unlimited books than uh the cost per month, and I'm hoping that will help me get back into reading, but that's all I've got. Yeah, it's hard when you read a crappy book and then really takes the wind out of your sails. Yeah. But this was also good. I read this today, so um, I feel like that helped me too. I'm back. This was a great book. Yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_04I've been on a great streak. Yeah, tell us what have you been reading? Oh god, okay. Well, it's more than one. Let's see. I read Do whatever you want.
AbigailThere's no remote on this.
SPEAKER_04So I watched Heated Rivalry, and that was changed my life. Um, I have watched this series an ungodly amount of times. I just watch it on a loop. Like after the last episode, I'm like, let's go back to where it started.
AbigailThis is a safe space. I have I have regressed, like I have. I have relapsed really, really, really, really, really hard back in the Heated Rivalry due to some just like general mental health issues going on. And I um I'm so happy for you. Oh my God.
SPEAKER_04It's my comfort show. And like when I'm working and I'm doing stuff in the background, I'm just like, let's just put on the most urinal love story of all. Sometimes it's too much.
AbigailLike sometimes I'm like, I'm overdosed. I can't just casually watch this because it's like it's like emotionally impacting me so hard, and I'm not like able to chill about it. So you so you read Heated Rivalry and The Long Game.
SPEAKER_04Heated Rivalry. Yes. I read Long Game, and then I've read a few deconstruction books. So I read Star Spangled Jesus from April of Joy. So good. And then I read Jesus and John Wayne.
AbigailNice, loved it.
SPEAKER_04Uh Dinner for Vampires. Okay. My recent read though, what I will talk about without giving, can I give the trope? Yeah. Because I feel like she's talked about what the trope is. Okay. So I read The Night We Met by Abby Jimenez. Oh, okay. That came out recently. And I love Abby Jimenez. Like she's liked a couple of my TikToks, and I literally almost cried because I love her so much. But the trope on this one is best friend's girlfriend. Oh. And I'm sitting with this book. Okay.
AbigailSo wait, it's like someone falls in love with their best friend's girlfriend.
SPEAKER_04So it's messy. Yes. I feel like she she did it really well, as well as someone could do that trope, but I don't know if it's the trope for me. Sure. It's not my favorite trope, but I gave it four stars.
AbigailI mean, I still like that's kind of like um one day in December. I was gonna say, I I was about to say, I feel like I do read this book, but no, that's the one I was thinking of. Um, yeah. Yeah. And that one really is tricky.
SPEAKER_04I'm just, I think I've I have such a justice streak. I mean, I'm so that person, it's a huge part of my personality. So I've always hated cheating. Yes, I don't want cheating. Cheating is my least favorite thing in the world, you know. So it's not even that it is that, but it feels the vibe.
AbigailIt is adjacent to yes, it's clear. Like I'd be so mad. Yeah, oh, you can never be friends with them again in real life. That doesn't actually work out. No. Yeah. I mean, I think the only there's like a very few circumstances I could work out. Now, would I read a gay version of that? Yes. Yes. The answer is always yes.
SPEAKER_04So, anyways, um, I still recommend it though. It was it was a good book. Okay. I I love everything from her. Yours truly was my favorite from her. I love that book.
AbigailOkay. Okay. What wait, what was the name of the best? What the one you just said though? The Yours Truly. Yours truly.
SPEAKER_04It's amazing. Have y'all read any book?
AbigailWell, no, no, I'm talking about the one that's the boyfriend.
SPEAKER_04Oh, one of the things. What is The Night We Met?
AbigailUh yeah.
SPEAKER_04The night we met.
AbigailOkay. Okay. Maybe I'll test it out. Um, I read The Love of My Afterlife by Kirsty Greenwood. And um, I liked this book. This is um, it is humorous, it's funny, it's British, uh, but it does discuss death. So if you're like particularly sensitive to that, you know, be careful. But the book starts with our main character, Delphi, and she is eating a microwave burger at her house while watching the twin tinder swindler on Netflix, and she chokes on the microwave burger and dies and goes.
SPEAKER_04I mean, I have a phobia of choking. Okay, so don't really don't scare me. And she my biggest fear is dying in a really dumb way. Yeah.
AbigailThat's exactly what happens in the first like everything, the thing she's wearing, the entire circumstance of it. Oh no. And she's like sitting there, she's like, Oh, I'm dying. And it's gonna be embarrassing because when they find me, I'm wearing like these horrible pajamas and whatever. Yeah. And she goes to the afterlife, and the afterlife is this place called Evermore. And uh while she's there, this other guy shows up to Evermore and they have this immediate connection, and she's like, Oh my god, like, wait. And then he is like, Oh, it's actually a mistake. He's just like under anesthesia, he's going back. So he goes back to Earth and she's like, Oh my god, and but and like her whole thing is she's never like she's never been with anybody, she's never really lived a life, like she's you know, just like a homebody, home homebody, never dated or anything like that. So, anyways, her like afterlife counselor is like, Well, there's a special clause, and I can send you back to Earth. And uh, but like you have to kiss him within like you have you have to get him to kiss you within seven days, or you're coming back to Evermore forever. And that is how the book starts. Okay, absolutely. Fun.
SPEAKER_04I'm interested. Me too. This reminds me, it reminds me of a movie that my husband made me watch recently. It I think it was from the 60s or 70s. It was like a really old, kind of cheesy movie. But the premise was this guy, what was it? He was in some sort of jet in the military and it went down. Uh, but basically he died, and the lady who he was talking on the phone with, they have this adorable five minutes before he dies. And then he gets sent back to Earth because they effed up in the afterlife. And then like he was supposed to die, but they didn't greet him at the thing, so they sent him back to Earth. So then Death keeps trying to come back to Earth and be like, No, your time was up, you have to leave. But he's like, No, I'm alive with this woman. Wow. So it reminds me of that premise.
AbigailInteresting. Either of you ever watched Drop Dead Diva. That was the same thing. Uh no. She, it's like a a model, it's like probably not the best politics, but she's like a model and like young and thin and blonde, and she goes, she dies in a car accident, and then she Oh, she has to come back as fat. Yeah. But she's like a fat lawyer. Oh gosh. Um, and so she, yeah, but so then she works at a uh law firm with her ex-boyfriend or her partner at the time that she died, but he's like not interested in her.
SPEAKER_01It was one of my favorite TV shows, so I'm not gonna lie to you.
AbigailThat is such a mid-2000s TV show. Yeah, it wouldn't play as well today, but uh same bias. What I say about this this book is it was it feels like it was written to become a movie, and the T is there was a movie deal for a little while, but they like they got the rights to it and like a couple years ago, but it was um Justin Baldoni's uh production company, so I don't think it's happening. It's not gonna work out. Got it. But this is a book that was like it feels like it was written to be a movie adaptation. Um, and I can't tell you anything else that happens because everything else is very surprising, but oh, okay. But you liked it. I liked it. I I didn't think it was the best book ever, but I really enjoyed it. And there are there's a lot of discussion of death and dying and like what your legacy is. So, you know, if that's not your vibe, maybe take a pass. Um we read it for my book club, and there was a couple people who were like sensitive to that and didn't were like honestly, like the beginning of this book was kind of triggering for me. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, cool. All right. Well, those were our recent reads. Thank you for Jubilee for coming on the podcast. It was such a pleasure to have you.
SPEAKER_04Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, thank you.
AbigailThis has been so much fun. Oh, and uh, where can everyone find you, Jubilee? If they don't already follow you.
SPEAKER_04At Jubilee Dawn's. So Jubilee Dawn with an S, and I have HealDish, and the Overshare Hour is my podcast.
AbigailCool. Go listen to them, and we will be uh we'll definitely boost and share your uh David Archelotta uh episode. And listen. Yes. Thank you. All right, guys, we'll see you later. Bye.
unknownBye.