In Defense of Romance Books

If you or someone you know claims they "don't like romance," do we have the episode for you!!! This is our full-throated defense of the genre, plus where to start if you're looking to give romance a try. 

Links: 

•  If you're new to romance...
  • Emily Henry (author)
  • Cara Bastone (author)
• If you like mystery/thrillers...
  • The Five Year Lie by Sarina Bowen
  • You Can Run by Rebecca Zanetti
  • Loreth Ann White (author)
• If you like literary fiction...
  • We Could Be So Good by Cat Sebastian
  • What Alice Forgot by Liane Moriarty
  • Romantic Comedy by Curtis Sittenfeld
• You like nonfiction/memoirs...
  • Love is a War Song by Danica Nava
  • Jane Eyre
• You like historical fiction...
  • The Devil Comes Courting by Courtney Milan
  • In Memoriam by Alice Winn
  • A Lady for a Duke by Alexis Hall
  • Lisa Kleypas
  • Outlander by Diana Gabaldon
  • Last Night at the Telegraph Club by Malinda Lo
• If you like science fiction...
  • The Darkness Outside Us by Eliot Schrefer 
  • Ice Planet Barbarians by Ruby Dixon
• If you like fantasy...
  • Bride and Mate by Ali Hazelwood
  • The Everlasting by Alix E. Harrow
  • Paladin's Grace by T. Kingfisher

Recent Reads: 

• Minor Black Figures by Brandon Taylor
• Dogs, Boys, and Other Things I've Cried About by Isabel Klee
• The Prophets by Robert Jones, Jr. 

CASE CLOSED 👩‍⚖️👩‍⚖️👩‍⚖️

Transcript

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Plot Twists, Welcome, And Quick Support

Abigail 0:00

It caught me off guard. Almost all pod twists do, to be fair, because I read very uncritically. Like when I'm reading, I'm like, yeah, whatever you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 0:09

I guess so.

Abigail 0:10

Yeah. Like if you're an unreliable narrator, I'll believe you. Like until proven otherwise. Welcome to the Redirect Podcast. I'm Abigail Freshly. And I'm Emily Rojas. The Redirect Podcast is the show where we shift the conversation back to books. We discuss themes from some of our favorite books and how those themes show up in our real lived experiences. On today's episode, we are making the case for romance as a genre. But before we get to that very important endeavor, we would love for you to support the show in a few really simple ways if you're enjoying it. First, you can go on to Spotify or Apple Podcasts or both and leave us a five-star review and let us know that you are loving the show. You can also follow us on Instagram and TikTok at redirectpodcast. Follow Emily anywhere at Emily Root HouseReads, me on TikTok at Fabigal11 and on Instagram at Fabigal Insta. And if you really, really oh, you can also go to redirectpodcast.com to search our media library and our merch. And um, if you really, really love the show, consider sharing our show with a friend because that is by far the best way to help us grow our book, our community of book loving nerds, and we always love bringing new people into our community. You know what? We bring we need merch that says book loving nerds, which we don't have anything with that, and I want something like that. So yeah, I'm adding that to the list. Okay, but yeah, you got it all. That was perfect,

Little Free Libraries And Literacy Drama

Abigail 1:40

as always. I saw the other day you posted a picture. Did you place that sticker? Like one of the reader podcast stickers, did you place that? It was uh it's at my parents' place of business, but they did purchase and place that sticker, so very nice of them. And it's on their little little free library that they have, so you know, conveniently. Oh, smart, smart that I fill with books. Like I got rid of about 50 books, and it is continually being replaced by me. So and other people there, I will say other people have started adding more books, but a lot of them. My belief about the little free library is you get out what you put in. If you want if you be the change you want to see in the world, if you want to have good books, I got little free library. Then you have to put in good books so that people will go and you will get more traffic. And like it won't just be like diet books and like James Dobson. And dude, I saw I saw a Dave Ramsey book uh in I know in one of my little free libraries, and I was like, yeah, we gotta do something about that. We gotta fix that. I'm gonna take I'm gonna take this just and other people's safe. There's a little there's a little free library by me in a park by my house, but it's like sponsored by I don't know, like Kawanis or something, and so they put kids' books in there, which obviously is great for childhood literacy, and I believe in that, and there's a lot of kids around here. But I'm like, somebody needs to get some adult books going in here because I would swap some out, but maybe it has to be me. So speaking of literacy, yeah, yeah. Before we get into the meat of the episode, sure have you seen this book talk drama about uh literacy? No, have I? I don't know. What is it about? I was just on my for you page and I got like you think you're just scrolling, and then you just you get dropped in the middle of something that you're like, whoa, this is none of my business. Like it's a couple announcing their breakup and you've never seen them before in your life. Yeah, right, correct. Yeah. Basically, the there was this original post from this person who was like, um, you know, hashtagging book talk, whatever, and was like, um, I like reading, but I think that um I think the authors need to start using easier words because some of these words are way too hard. And that sparked a crazy firestorm. Like you would think, what there can't be that much to that. But people were like, Well, what are the words? Um, and like I don't want to judge people for like not being at a high reading level or anything like that. It's it's one thing to be like, I need more accessible books for me to read. It's another thing to say authors and like the publishing industry should dumb down their books. Correct. So that was like the rub, right? So then people are stitching this video and like blah, blah, blah. And then people are like, then to the people who are like, no, we're in a literacy crisis, like you need to, like, we can't dumb down our books, like, we just need to do more like universal supports and systemic blah blah. And like then people were like, okay, say you're able to stop saying you're ableist. Oh god. So then like we are in the bad place, bro. We are. So then people are like, it's so it's so ableist to say that books should have long words that are hard for people to read. So your solution to this is that we should all be reading like green eggs and ham. Like, I don't understand what you're saying to me. There are books of different reading levels. That's the whole point of books. Like, there are books that are easier to read. Here's our here's our problem as a society. A lot. One of our problems. What honey we have become less literate and we've given people the internet and given them words that they don't understand what they mean, including the word ableism and ableist. Because having a book that has words that you don't know what they mean in them is not ableist. It is just something that's out of your reading level. And you know what is bad is having like uh like an education system and like social supports, and like we don't have early, like we don't have universal pre-K and these early interventions, so that people we're having too many screens and all this stuff, and like kids aren't learning to read for real. Yes. Separate issue. That is a separate issue, correct. Well, I think part of the problem too is like uh TikTok, and I like I'm on book talk, I'm posting out here, but it it rewards people for having takes on everything and rehashing the same conversation, and it's like in reality, you don't actually need to rile people up. Like, let's just con you don't actually have to have a take on everything. If there's a new, but that's what happens, and then the discourse just like spins out of control because everybody's trying to like go viral with their take on the hottest, new, latest thing, and it's like and it's like I don't even want to I'm not I also don't want to say to the original poster, you're dumb, learn how to read. I'm like, no, like that's not the message. I think my take is like, so yeah, we're talking about why everything needs take, and here we are sharing our take on them on a podcast that we record and publish. Correct. But my thing is like I'm glad you're reading. Yeah, I'm I'm glad you're reading. And maybe right now some books are not accessible to you, and maybe one day they will become so, or maybe they won't. And I think you should keep on reading no matter what. And also, um, we shouldn't dump books down ever. Please don't. And it's not able us to have books that are outside of your reading level. Correct. I think correct. I think honestly, we would as a society bring back so much stability if we brought back AR. I need accelerated reader, as for adults. Hooked on phonics and excel, yeah. Even though I hated AR birds as a kid, I really had an issue with it on principle, but um, yeah, we should bring it back. Kids need to be reading, and adults need to be reading. I did see people, I don't know, I know you're probably I know actually, probably not a sounded part of it. You're not watching Love Island, but there's a care uh character, a cast member who said uh who mispronounced, yeah. He missed he's an evil person, just to be clear. This this this person, but he mispronounced epitome, which I am also guilty of. I saw this. He's the epitome, right? Yes, and people were like, This is the literacy crisis in America. Hello, that is not the literacy crisis. That's a person who has only ever read that word and didn't know how to say it. That's the point. It's not the same thing. We should be celebrating the fact that he knows the word at all because he really used it correctly, right? He just said it wrong. Like, we don't have to make fun of people who mispronounce words, okay? Epitome is one that got me before it. I think for like, I think for six months at least, maybe this is one of like if I run for president, this is for like you have to have a license to use the term gaslighting, and you have to have a license to use the word ableist. Yeah. Unless we're talking about and it's it's zero tolerance, one misuse and and you're revoked. An infraction and sorry, you're getting shipped like or you have six months. Well, no, no, we're not deporting anyone. I'm just saying they just get their license revoked and they can reapply six months later after they take a remediation course. Yes, I'm yeah, you're you're getting put in like summer school, basically. Yeah, like I think there's a lot of things. Yeah, I agree. Okay, good help. We solved the world problems. Congratulations. That was the book talk drama. I was just like, you know, you just get dropped somewhere and you're like, yeah, what's going on? Yeah. Anyways. All right. So

Why Romance Gets A Bad Rap

Abigail 9:27

speaking of literacy, a lot of and other systemic problems, um, a lot of people think they don't like romance. Facts. And they're wrong. Why do you why do you think they don't like romance? Or why do you think that they think they don't like it? I was googling before, like, I don't like romance, Reddit to see what people were saying. I think people think, first of all, I do, I know this is like boring, right? Bleh. Okay. I think people hate it because women like it and young girls. And that's we we've covered that. So, number one, I think that's a it gets a bad rap. Like boy bands, like the Beatles at one point, probably, like all great things that women like whatever Taylor Swift. We've beat this dead horse. Correct. But yeah, it's why the Bee Trick movie is so bad, the world is so bad. And so they hate the things that are marketable for it. So that's number one. But I do think I think And women hate women. Women hate women so much. First of all, I think romance um as a genre is like super prolific, and a lot of people are writing what I would consider not very good romance books. And so I think if you pick up a book like that, or you pick up something that you're not particularly drawn to or into or whatever, then you are gonna be saying I hate this genre forever. But in reality, I think we have more nuance when we talk about other genres of books and we understand a little bit more, like I don't like this specific type of mystery novel. But I feel like we we don't we lose a little bit of that nuance when it comes to romance. Um, and like it's also popular, it's the most popular book. It's romance books are the best-selling books of any genre, and they have been for a long time. And people don't like popular things, and I get that. Um, so that's my opinions. I think, and I think people think it's the same trobes and it's the same boring thing over and over, and how many different ways can two people fall in love? And so, like, that would be my understanding of why people and like I think I was one of those people. There was a time in my life, we'll get to our relationship to romance books, but where I like didn't really read a lot of romance, and I thought it was just like meh, like lowbrow or like boring or repetitive, or that other books were more interesting. So yeah, and I put a fine point on it. Not all romantic books are romance, in my opinion. Yeah, for sure. Romance books I think are defined by having like the main plot is driven between a relationship between at least two characters who have a romantic relationship, and it has to have a happy ending, whether it's correct for after or happy for now. There has to be like a fulfilling committed commitment type ending where um everyone is resolved. So it romance books don't end like in a tragic death. They don't a happy ending could like a happy ending for a character, uh like a satisfying ending could be that they break up, but that's not gonna make it a romance book. In the romance book, there has to be a happy ending between those two characters in the future. Like you have to be able to imagine a happy future for them. Yes, is my feeling. So not there are a lot of books that have romance elements that are not romantic books, um, that are like tragic books, like Romeo and Juliet is a great example. It centers around a couple and a romance, but it ends in tragedy. That's a play, but you get the point. Yeah. Um so so yeah, so that's what it is. And books that are considered traditional romance are genre books. So they usually the authors of those books are pushed, like in the industry, to release books on a faster timeline than like if you were writing more literary, then you have more time. You might just release like one or two books over the span of like 10 years. But you know, if you get a publishing deal to write romance, you might be like on the hook for like five books in five years or something like that. So there's also um like more pace to consume them and to create them. And sometimes I think that leaves room in the field for crappy books, yeah, because of the demand and correct the like intense speed at the at which they have to be like produced. Correct. It's kind of like recently uh for the hip hop band, Drake recently released three albums at once hypothesis to get out of his contract, and like are they good albums? Questionable, right? No, no, it is not questionable, they're bad. Yes, but is there maybe one good album in there? That's possible, you know what I mean? And so when sometimes when you're pushing right among the songs, one tight, like 10-track album could be there. So the point is when you have to rush things contractually, sometimes you're not making the best art that you possibly could, which does, I think, also turn people off from the romance genre if they're not finding authors that are doing that well, or authors fall off. Like they're I would say even authors I love. Sometimes I don't love their mothers and books. Wait, and bringing this back to like the hatred of women, we're also like less money is going into like editing and developing books and like paying authors what they deserve and giving them good deals. A lot are indie published. So there's just less um like institutional support for this genre, which I think you and I would make the case that ties directly back to misogyny and sexism. Correct, obviously. Um, and like why are women more into romance anyway? Like, if we make that assumption, and I think it's because there is an element of fantasy in these books, there is an absence of male violence. Most of the time. There is, yeah, most of the time. Um the books I read. It yeah, it ends happily, right? Like there is uh usually women are like if if it's told from a certain character from a first person point of view, it's from the from a woman's point of view most of the time. Yeah. Um, so it's just it's like a form of escape too. I think that's something that people really something they they like about it. Um, a lot of people started reading romance during the pandemic because everything outside was so horrible that like we we a lot of us didn't have the capacity to like watch or read anything sad because we just couldn't. Correct. And so I think it provides a really big escape for a lot of people and a certain amount of predictability that is comforting. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely love that.

Our Road Back To Romance

Abigail 16:08

So, Abigail, what how did you start reading romance books? What do you feel like your relationship is to them? I started I started reading romance books with Twilight, bro. Yeah, that was that was that was really my beginning. Like uh the thing that planted a seed in me that made me love romance. Um a demon half vampire swan, baby in you. Yes. And uh we have many episodes we focus on Twilight. So just go to our website, go to read our productcast.com, search our media library for Twilight, and you can find every episode we ever talked about Twilight. Um, how much that is but um so that was my into romance. Then I think I went through a period as like a later teen, an early adult where I too hated women uh and had a lot of internalized misogyny and self-hatred. Like, oh romance is stupid, and also I was reading less um in like college, so I wasn't even really reading that much. But if I was, I probably was reading some kind of bullshit Christian self-help and not originally man uh because of my internalized misogyny. But when I got back into reading as an adult, it was through romance, um specifically historical romance, um, which is like probably uh it's like a favorite subgenre. So that's what pulled me back in. Um, and I think also becoming more comfortable and accepting of like removing some of the shame around sexuality. I mean, not all, not all books, not all romance books are like open door explicit, um, and what would be categorized as like smut, but many are. And I think um as I started to like deconstruct the shame around sex and religion and stuff like that, romance books were a big way to um like open, crack that door back open. What about you? Yes, actually, that's something I meant to say earlier. I think a lot of people think all romance books are like really smuddy and explicit, and so that keeps them away. So obviously there are other options that are on all points of the spectrum. I have I have some recommendations today that run the gamut of like extremely chaste to extremely not. I was just looking back while you were talking on my stats. Um, and uh when did we start this podcast? 2022? Does that sound right to you? Yeah. Anyway, in 2022, I had about I did read, I wouldn't even call some of these romance though. Um so like more than double was thriller mystery. And then now this year, well, let's do last year for for a full year comparison. Last year, my number one genre was romance with 76 of my lord. 76 of the 117 are getting categorized in the romance genre. So I've definitely switched a flip, flipped a switch. But um, same as you. I definitely read, like I when I think about what I read as a kid, like I was definitely driven to love stories, except they were probably like Twilight embedded in a bigger, or like The Hunger Games, um, some of those other dystopian like YA series I really liked. Um, even Harry Potter, like to an extent, has love stories embedded into it. Uh like I'm trying to think what else. I don't know. Those kind of things, but um I'll also say this. I think maybe you would agree with this. The the kind of romances that we are both drawn to, I think, are character-driven romances and not necessarily plot-driven romances. Correct. I think a lot of people, when they're like, oh, just everything is the same, the tropes are all the same. I think if you have poor characters, you have to rely on the plot and the tropes a lot. But if you find a romance author that has great characters, the romance is a vehicle to explore their development. And totally you're seeing the character in the context of like the most vulnerable thing that they could be in, which is this like very exposed relationship. Totally. I completely agree with that. Um, yeah, so same as you, I stopped reading. Then when I came back to reading, I feel like I was reading well, for a time I was reading a lot of mystery thrillers, um, like a ton. So yeah, definitely more in that genre. And then when we started this podcast, I feel like you read more romance than me and started recommending books on here that I started reading, and then that like led me over the edge. And I think, yeah, like the world is bleak or by the day. And but the Obama era. I know like Joe Biden was president when we started this podcast. Things were a little bit at least more hopeful. I mean, you know, it's still rough, but anyway, uh, not what they are now. So uh yeah, but I I feel like I've grown to love the genre, and I do like I have always liked like I love unironically Hallmark movies. I like that nothing bad happens in them. Like I don't have to feel anxious or worry about what's gonna happen when I watch them. And I like watching romance movies and stopping before the third act breakup. Like I do that with Leapier, which is one of my favorite movies. I don't like it when when things start to go wrong, I'll just like stop watching before we get there. So I feel like romance and I feel like uh I shared this before, and we actually someone DM'd us and said that they started um reading romance because of this comparison. But like I do think, and we'll get to mystery thrillers, but I think if you like mysteries, if you like thrillers, I really think that you would like romance genuinely, because to me the reason I like them is the same. Like they're both predictable, they have similar structures, you know what's gonna happen in the end, the mystery's gonna get solved, or if it's like a horror, you know, maybe it's not gonna get solved. But in general, if you're reading A mystery book, you know who the players are going to be, you know that there's going to be rules to it, and you know that there's going to be a resolution at the end. And there's some familiarity to that that I like also about romance. Like I can feel angst, I can feel sadness, I can feel all these things that I do like to feel. Like I love books that are painful and emotional, but like also when I read a romance, I know that it's going to be happy in the end and it's going to be okay. So um, I like that. So yeah, I've I've changed my my ratio has flipped dramatically uh over the past few years in terms of how much romance I read, and I'm happy for it. I feel like I'm a better person for it, genuinely. So that's my that's my experience. Thank you. So you can whatever, you can listen to this podcast and not like romance, although we do talk about it a lot. But yeah, the idea here is that if you have been averse to try it or you've read some romances and you didn't like them, we think we can coach you up and um just like allow us opportunity to convert you. Let us make the case. So

How To Pick Your First Romance

Abigail 23:03

what what would you recommend to the person who's brand new to romance? Great question.

unknown 23:11

They have nothing under the tab.

Abigail 23:14

I would recommend like you should start with the things that are probably popular. I would say, like our biggest big ones, Emily Henry, uh Allie Hazelwood. Maybe that's a little extreme for your first time, but Emily Henry's a solid one. I would go with Emily Henry. I've recently I recently got into Kara Bastone. I think she's got really great romance. Uh, if you like stuff that's like well written, it's not as explicit. Similar with Emily Henry, neither of them are very, very explicit. Um, and they both, I think, are very good writers and like will take you on an emotional journey. So I think if you're like completely brand new, start with those big popular names that like and try to, I think, self-reflect what is it that you like about the books that you read? And what are you looking for when you pick up a book? Are you looking for a really fast-paced plot? Are you looking for good characters? Are you looking for good writing? Like, like really good gripping writing? Are you looking for like when you think about a romance, if you watch like any kind of romance movies, or if you have a TV show with like a romantic pairing that you like, what is it about them that you like? Do you like when it's a slow burn? Do you like when there's like instant attraction between them? Like, I think just try to because there odds are if you don't read romance, you're consuming romantic content somewhere in your life. Yeah. And I would just try to draw from that and see like what is it that I like about this and find books similar to it. TM us and tell us your TMS and we will help you. We always love our listener recommendation episodes. So save it up and uh or email us and or contact us through our website and we'll put one of those together sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I would agree. I would say like go with something that like things popular things are often popular for a reason. That being said, don't read Colleen Hoover. No. And I would say probably also stay away from another another in our opinion author that is pop that is very popular, but we wouldn't recommend is Abby Jimenez. So correct. But a lot of people like a lot of people do. So yeah, they're like so. Yeah, there are a lot of things that are popular and they're popular because they're good. So I I mean, like, go to that good, go to that Goodreads rating, go to that story graph rating. I would say if you are like at 3.5 or above, go for it. I think you're gonna be taking a little bit of a risk if you're seeing an average score of like 3.5 or below. Is my favorite. You know what you can do too is you can go to archivourown.org and you can search for a pairing that you like and you can look at those tags and you can think, okay, what do I like? And that's free. That is free 99. You can, you know, zoom around and then you can really narrow it down. Like, okay, what do I like? Um, so I mean, if you need a primer on AO3, just DM us as well. So yeah, that's what my other suggestion.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

Okay. Now you're here. You're welcome. Welcome. We're happier here to the romance genre. Now feed her in.

Abigail 26:22

Now we've we've we've we've indoctrinated ourselves, we have a little bit of interest, we've piqued our interest.

Romance Picks For Mystery And Thriller

Abigail 26:27

You are typically a mystery or thriller reader. Yes what should you be reading to as your like bridge into romance? This was this was the request that inspired this episode. I was having a conversation with my coworker Emma, and shout out to her. And she um just like we're talking about how she likes reading mysteries, and I was like, you know what? If you like mysteries, you should try this as a romance book. And it is The Five Year Lie by Serena Bowen. This book, I have talked about it a while a long time ago, but it's um so if you'd miss that, it follows a main character, woman, who's name I forgot, who she was in a relationship with someone, um, very serious, very committed relationship with him. And one day he like disappears out of nowhere, presumed dead. She finds his like obituary, like he just he vanishes and presumed dead. Five years pass, and she gets a text out of the blue, and it says, Something happened. Meet me at this spot today at noon or whatever. She goes to the spot, he's not there, she doesn't know what's happening, but she's like, How did he text me? Is he still alive? Like, what who is this? And so she starts investigating. It's really fun because it is that mystery thriller of what happened to him and like where did he go? And he's like vanished, but also you get the flashbacks of how they met, how they fell in love the first time. So kind of has that like dual um like a romance element, but also the thriller element. And it is really fun and and like exciting. I couldn't put it down. And I think if you like similarly, yes, it's very similar to like a mystery or a thriller, and it has those elements, like there is a lot of mystery, there's a lot of like red herrings and suspects and murder, but like also a really nice love story. So I think this would be a good entry point for you. Yeah. What about what do you have for our mysteries? Um, I've talked about this book on this podcast before, but this is uh You Can Run, which is the beginning of a series, so you've got like a few lined up for you by Rebecca Zanetti. Um, this is a kind of classic thriller. Like it is about um an FBI agent who's like really, she's like really genius level at great at solving crimes, and she gets called in to help solve a string of mysterious murders that happened in the Pacific Northwest in the winter, and she has to work with the um head of like the fish and wildlife guy to like look through the mountains and try and solve this murder. It is kind of ridiculous. There are some like really soapy moments where you're like, it's almost like Scooby-Doo, like rub off the mask. Like it's just very like kind of dramatic, but it's so fun and like the it's equal, I would say, mystery and romance because there's a slow burn, there's a slow burn romance happening between Huck, the fish and wildlife guy, and the main character whose name I don't remember, and when not we googling. But uh I recommend there's it's you can run, you can hide, you can die. And then I think another there's another one coming out called You Can Kill. It's it's at some points it kind of jumps the shark, but it's fun. And it's like short and it's a romp, and I think it I think it's a good place to start start, yeah. I love that. That also makes me think of an author I used to talk about a lot more, but Laura Than White is a great mystery thriller author, and almost all of her books have some like background side romance. I wouldn't call them romance books, but if you're like dabbling for the first time, I think she's a great author, very underrated to check out. So okay, Abigail.

Character-Driven Romance Plus Jane Eyre

Abigail 30:15

Now, if someone likes reading Lip Thick, gasp, so high-minded. What romance book would you recommend to them? By the way, you and I both love Lip Thick. It's like yeah, you can love Lip Thick and Love Romance. You can read more than one genre. Yeah, shockingly. So I had to give a good think to this one to kind of think, I mean, to think a little bit outside of the box. Um, I'm gonna recommend romantic comedy by Curtis Sittenfeld. Um let me like jog my memory, really quick about this. Hold on. I thought about recommending this one as well. So this is a contemporary story um about a writer on what is a basically an equivalent of SNL, uh, and the guest star that week, the guest or the the host that week. Celebrity, yes. The celebrity host, and she is like writing material for him, and he is there all week. And uh it's like quippy and it's humorous and it's sharp, and I would think, and like kind of witty. So it has a little bit of like the flavor of literary fiction because there's a lot of exploration about the characters. Like I thought like that the characters were really well built out. So the main character is Sally, Sally Mills. Um and uh I just I distinctly remember from reading this book uh feeling like I had a really clear picture of her life, what her apartment was like, how she lived, what she looked like, how she felt. And I think that part to me feels very literary. Yeah. Um, like the whole of who she is. She I didn't I would say this challenges the typical romance thing of like she's a certain archetype of female main character. It felt like she was breaking the mold of like a certain archetype. Um and so that was interesting. Yes, okay. Um and I think that the author Curtis Sittenfeld, who is a woman, it's her pen name. Um, I think that she writes women really well, and she's complex and interesting. And so if if you are a little bit bored maybe sometimes by the idea of reading romance, uh, this might challenge that. Yeah, I love that. I also think uh yes, Curtis Sittenfeld it writes very well researched books, and I enjoyed that aspect of especially the beginning part that does take place at this SNL type location. I liked how it felt. Um it I mean I've never worked at SNL, but it really felt like okay, this is probably what it actually is like working someplace like that. Yeah. So you get like a full picture of the world, it's not just about the love story, it's like also about her career and what's going on. So yeah, I like that a lot. Yeah, it didn't feel like a cop-out. Yeah, totally. Or just like a I don't know, it's like reading hockey romance, and sometimes you're like, this is so blandly hockey. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, like hockey is just a convenient setting for you, but like there's no specific what? No specificity or like incorrect details, or but then there's some where you're like, oh, like this is like feels like probably what it's actually like, except for the like torrid gay affair. Well, who knows? But other than that, like the hockey part feels accurate, so this feels like the the ladder. Exactly. Okay first of all, I just want to say obviously uh we could be so good by Cat Savash and don't need to go over that again. But that is to me, it is a lit fake book. It is like I love beating a dead horse. Yes. If you guys haven't read that book yet, I would find it. I need an alternative to that. Is that an idiom? Beating a dead horse? What is that? I think it's an idiom. I guess. Yeah, I guess it's like happier. Yeah. Um let's think on that. We'll work on it. We'll work on it. It's already full. He's so full he can't eat anymore. He can't eat anymore. Um, but so you know, if you guys haven't read that yet, like you're really missing out. But, anyways, another one I thought of for this is What Alice Forgot by Leanne Moriarty. Uh Leanne Moriarty is like more of a volitic author in general. That's and I I don't I think I would categorize this this as a romance, but like her tone is just gonna read a little bit differently. This book follows Alice, and she is an a mom, she is like middle-aged, she's going through a divorce, separated from her husband, and she's at the gym, like you know, self-deprecating workout, and she falls off. I think it's like a bike or an elliptical or something, and she hits her head, and when she wakes up, she does not remember the last like decade of her life. And so when she wakes up, she's like in her late 20s or something, she doesn't have any kids yet, and she's like madly in love with her husband, who she's about to marry or or has just married. This is ringing bells. I think you told me about this book before. I think I've talked about it before a long time ago. Um, I've read it several years ago, but I really liked this because it's like I just love this as a concept, like looking at your life with new eyes, whether it's like you have a near-death experience or you forget amnesia or like you get to go back in time. I just love that as like a trope. Um, and I think this is really nice because it's like she's already in love with her husband, and in her memory, like none of the bad things between them have happened. She's having to learn why they're separated and re-go through that like trauma. But like it's a really nice love story. There's more to it. Obviously, she also doesn't remember her children, she doesn't remember anything about her life. Um, but you know, it it's just really it's a nice love story, I think, at the end. And I think I really like her other books um as well. So if you've read anything by her, I think you would like this. Uh, and I really recommend it, it's really good. So I think the key here is the character development. Yes, yes, getting a full. Because it is not focused around a romance, yes, yes. Yeah, correct that's the key element. So so take one of these two recommendations, but also hear what we're saying that if you typically like look like lick like literary fiction, then you will probably also like a character-driven romance, correct. And we which we do, which yeah, okay. What about if someone likes to read nonfiction books or memoirs? What would you suggest to them, Abby? Okay, so the tack I took here was thinking about romance books that break the fourth wall. And in my opinion, a classic romance book, Jane Eyre by Charlotte Bronte, is um like the quintessential book that does that. Obviously, the the last chapter of the book, a very famous line that most people know, even if they don't know anything about Jane Eyre, is reader, I married him. A quiet wedding we had. He and I, the parson and clerk, were alone present. And um it is like, even if you don't know anything about Jane Eyre, every like that is almost what do you call that? Colloquialism, like it's just something that's Reader, I married him. Yeah. Reader, I whatever. It's like it's so iconic. I don't, I'm not the person who's gonna be like, oh, you need to read all the classics, but you should read Jane Eyre. This book, like to me, this maybe was on the one of the books I read as like a teenager that really got me to love romance. Um, because Jane is such uh a non like she is not an atypical female main character. Like she the story is basically she comes to work for this family. She comes to work for this guy, Mr. Rochester, and she's like his governess helping to take care of his like kid or whatever. So it's not typical. She's kind of weird, she's kind of quiet, she's a little bit like a loser, like a misfit, and there's something weird going on because she keeps hearing all these loud noises from the attic, and we don't know what it is. And yeah, so, anyways, you guys should go read it. But I also want to just hype this up by reading like one of the most, if not the most romantic thing that has ever been written, in my opinion, is from this book. And uh, this is like, I mean, obviously, spoiler, they end up together, but yeah, that's for every single one. When they're having a when they're having the DTR, they're finally defining a relationship and coming to blows with their love for one another. Edward goes, I sometimes have a queer feeling with regard to you, especially when you are near me, as now. It is as if I had a string somewhere under my left ribs, tightly and inextricably knotted to a similar string situated in the corresponding quarter of your little frame.

SPEAKER_02 39:21

Are you kidding me? I've never read Jane Hair, but I'm sorry.

Abigail 39:25

That is like that is that's crazy. First of all, that's something only a woman could write. Correct. Second of all, I mean, like I'm like my eyes are pricking with tears just reading that. Like it is so romantic. I'm sold. And a little dark, and um there is a happily ever after, and it's one of the most beautiful. Actually, there's a one more really lovely line I have to Google. So I don't I don't butcher it. Please do. There's many ups and downs. Okay, here we go. I know no weariness of my Edwards society. He knows none of mine any more than we each do of the pulse of the heart. No woman was ever nearer to her mate than I am, ever more absolutely bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh. I know no such state as a single being. I can only be his better part. He is all to me, and by as much as I am forever by forever myself, but so much more we are one. My god. And then I I I don't want to spoil something that's in this next little paragraph. So I'm just gonna say there's a quality about him, it's not a matter of the spirit. For the same cloud was on our eyes and the same joy on our path, both have sunk into identical obscurity, and both will rise when he and I shall be gathered together into the light of the light to come. It's so beautiful. I just, I just I know that this isn't true, like true to like, oh, if you like nonfiction, but if you like a memoir and you like someone telling you their story, yeah, Jane Eyre tells you the story down. She eats down and she's gonna tell you the most beautiful story ever about how she uh met and fell in love with Edward Rochester. So I love that. Thank you. Please read it. I haven't added your summer reading list, add that to your summer reading list. I will. Okay. Um, okay, so my recommendation is on I I also I feel like this is the toughest category we picked, but yeah, um, as if I didn't make this outline, but I picked uh Love is a War Song by Def Danicanava. I think if you like more of a contemporary, like if you liked Britney Spears memoir, you would like this. Or another like contemporary pop star, but it follows Britney. Yeah, yeah, like a poppy culturally one, not like a really heady one. But um, yeah, Love is a War Song. It follows a pop star who is indigenous, and she but she like has like not claimed her heritage, okay. So, and she's like semi-white passing, and so she gets into this big scandal where she wears like a Native American headdress in a photo shoot and she does something else in a like very culturally insensitive in a like a music video. So she's in this firestorm getting cancelled, and so also she has to like get her there's like paperwork to prove her ancestry, and so she has to go back to like escape the the chaos and to also prove to people that she actually is native. Uh she goes back to where her family's from, who she's never met. Her mother has no contact with her grandparents and anybody from their town, so she doesn't know anything about their life or their culture, and she goes back and there's a farmhand working on her grandmother's farm, and she meets him and they fall in love. Anyway, that's basically it. But I think you would like this because yeah, if you like like a pop culture memoir, uh it's kind of fun because she's like this pop star. It's like the Hannah Montana movie, like she's thrown back into small town life, you know, um, and having to like hallmarky kind of. Very hallmarky, but like also really like heartfelt and um I think well written. And like also you'll learn a lot about um this particular indigenous culture in Oklahoma. I think I forget what tribe she's a part of exactly, but there's a lot like about their traditions and their community, and um, so I I learned a lot, and I think she's a really interesting, fun main character, and the love story is really nice too. So I really enjoyed this Love is a War song by Danica Nava. Love! Yeah, you've recommended that before. Yeah, as are most of these books. I've recommended them all before. You and me just yeah. Look.

SPEAKER_02 43:40

Look, look.

Abigail 43:42

You can only read so many books. I have a lot to say about our next category. So do you want to go first? Sure.

Historical Romance From Telegraphs To WWI

Abigail 43:49

Historical fiction. You definitely have more to say. I mean, there are I feel like these days a lot of historical fiction is historical romance, but there are like if you like um Uh what's her face? Like oh like Taylor Jenkins Reed. Yeah, some of those are romances, but not all, you know? Yeah. Um like if you like something like that, if you like um the nightingale, yeah, Kristen Hanna is gonna say. It's not like yeah, it's it's more about like this place and time kind of thing. Um, but you're also curious about historical romance. Yes. Saddle. Yeah.

unknown 44:32

Yes.

Abigail 44:32

Alright, go ahead. Um, my first suggestion, I have a couple. Uh, The Devil Comes Courting by Courtney Milan. I definitely talked about this before. It's been a long time since I read this, and this was actually what got me into reading like genuinely true genre romance, I think. Um, and Courtney Milan is like a staple author in the genre, like going way back. This book takes place in the past, 1700, 1600. It's it's a while ago. And this woman. Your she's a Chinese adoptee in England, I think. Again, it has been a long time since I read this. Um, but she still speaks Chinese, I think. And uh a man is coming through and he is working to try to lay telegraph lines under the ocean, but he needs like help from the Chinese to do this, so he needs a translator and he asks her to come with him. It's very, very interesting about telegraphic lines. Like, you don't think about the technologies and a dream. Yeah, someone had to do but someone had to do this, and there's like ships, and like he's like brooding, and um, this is really, really good. It's genuinely very good, and I did not expect it to be. You'll look at the cover and you will not expect it to be good, but it is genuinely quite good, and it feels very well researched. And I my understanding is that it is pretty well researched in terms of what actually had to happen in order to set up intercontinental telegraphs or whatever. So that's a great one. I'll also recommend In Memorium by Alice Wynn. I really can't shut up about this book. I love it so much. It is a queer romance between two boys at the beginning who are at a public school in England together, boarding school, and then they go off to World War One. World War One is tough, you guys. The trenches are not chill, they're not chill. Um, and In Memorium comes from like the in memoriam section of the newspapers at the time, which would just print little messages um memorializing all of the hundreds, thousands, hundreds of thousands of dead soldiers. And uh it's a conversation between the two main characters that comes up quite often. Like, what will you write for me when I'm gone? And they quote poetry to each other in or instead of being able to say their true feelings. It's very deeply emotional and moving. But if you're also interested in World War One, it's great. It's giving, do you think he knows? My yes, yes, dude. Yes, because yeah, sometimes you can't say the thing, so you say the you're telling someone in another way, and don't worry, sometimes they don't know, but they they get there eventually. It was brutal. Literally, I saw like uh like a video, like a it was like a reel of some guy who came back from World War One and like also they didn't know what like PTSD was, yeah, yeah. So there's like, oh he's shell shocked. There's that and he yes, he's like not well, like shaking, like not it's brutal. And I think this is a good this is a really good starting point, I think. If you because I would I almost hesitate to call this a romance, um, although that is like the primary plot, but it like it is also mostly trench warfare and people dying and like prisoners of war and like PTSD, it's all in there. So yeah, um that and then I don't know. Yeah, I would recommend a lady for a duke for something lighter. That is a transgender woman encountering her Duke best friend from childhood who doesn't recognize her now that she's positioned. It's so nice and lovely. Shout out to her, like she was not, she didn't didn't have HRT, right? She didn't have any horror, like she was just like, let me like do my hair, yes, wear my little dresser, wear my little chimper, I'm gonna voice train, and I'm gonna pass. My best friend is not gonna know it's me. Yes, correct. Go off, Queen. Shout out for you. So those are my three. Um, I I am not as into this as you, so I would love to hear your thoughts and what you have to say about the genre. I love this genre. I love I don't know why I love historical so much, but I just I really, really do. Yeah. Um, I'm gonna I have a few recommendations, but I'm gonna go from like most like oldest to most recent history. Okay, slightly. I love that. The first is kind of historical, even though it's mostly based on fantasy, which is The Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller. Oh god, yes, yeah. Okay, this book literally changed my fing life. Yeah, and I how can I forget? If Slash, well, I think it is getting adapted. I don't feel so strong, like I will be so upset if this is miscast. You know, like this one will mean really personal to me. And I want to say I do agree with everybody who thinks that Connor Story should be Achilles. I think yeah, I'm on board. Yeah, that's correct. That is in my mind's eye, yes, it is Connor's story. I don't know. I I am more someone's gonna have to have big shoes to fill. Yeah, I don't think that it should be um Hudson Williams. No, that's that's incorrect. No, correct. But anyways, uh Song of Achilles is basically the retelling of the story of Achilles and Patroclus and um your texts from ancient Greece, and it is about the queer, it's an extrapolation of the queer coding of Patrickus, Patroclus and Achilles, and like they are very queer-coded characters in the Odyssey, and this book explores that and the powerful love that they had between them. It's kind of like a la Jonathan and David. Just like, come on, there was gay stuff happening. But this is the most beautiful book, and even though it ends the way that their story ends with Odyssey, which is that they are one of them dies and then the other one dies. It I will say it is a romance because it is a happy and hopeful ending, and like the love. I mean, it's just like I don't think I've cried harder reading a book. And it's up there with like the hardest I've ever cried reading a book. It's beautiful, and I know you love this book too. I love this book, correct. Nothing more to out of it. It's worth it. I love it. It is so worth the hype, it is gorgeous. Yeah. Okay. Next, moving up in history. Um, I'm gonna recommend uh the Outlander series by Diana Galbadon. Look, I know some people don't like the series, and um obviously it was adapted into a show. I think it's extremely immersive. This takes place in like um well, it takes place over a long period of time, but it starts in like the 1600s in Scotland. And wow, I love Jamie so much. I would say big heavy trigger warnings. There's lots of really brutal things that happen, but I think that the story of Jamie and Claire is beautiful um over these many books. And um I just really love them. So I it's this is not a hot take. Uh it is like what to say with these books. It it's like in a place in time in history. It's also a time travel book. So like if you hate time travel, this is not for you. The whole thing is about time travel. Yeah, but it's uh it's really great. I really like it. Okay. Next, I'm gonna go Regency Era. I mean, most historical romance I think are in this Regency era, like eight 1810s, 1820s in England. Um, you know, many people will like, oh, Berton's the first one to go to. I think that the Lisa Clapis novels, the the Wallflower series, um, I find to be even better. And then, like, best, like, congratulations to you, historical romance authors, just write like many cascading series with many books and all of them. And so then you can move on to the Ravenels. Um, there's just there are so much to read, and I love Lisa Clapus, but you have like so much to choose from in this genre. Okay, and then the last thing, this is set in the 1950s, and this is Last Night of the Telegraph Club by Melinda Lowe. Um, this is a story of a young Chinese American woman, uh, or Chinese American girl, Lily, who um is kind of discovering her sexuality in San Francisco and Chinatown in the midst of all of these like raids on queer clubs. And she is discovering um her sexuality and her attraction to women um in the context of her relationship with one of her peers. And it is just really, really beautiful. It's a beautiful book and um more recent history. It's really lovely, and I think more people should read it. And I think it's a lot of it's like recent queer history uh in America, and that is really cool, and um this book felt really well researched and like it had a lot to it. So those are my recommendations. Thank you for those many recommendations. I love and appreciate them. Okay. We're moving on. What do you have? Do you want me to go first? Uh yeah, you go first. You go first. Okay.

Sci-Fi And Fantasy Romance Rabbit Holes

Abigail 54:19

This is one I've talked about as well before. All of these are, so why do I keep disclaiming that? But it's The Darkness Outside Us by Elliot Straffer. I think this also works if you like a mystery thriller because there is an element of mystery and like not really knowing what's going on. Um, and this is marketed as a YA, so that's my other disclaimer. I would say it does not read like a YA. I actually was shocked to find out it was a YA. Technically, the the characters are my minors, or they're 18 or so. Um, but they've been trained like for reasons. Humanity has to have minors and young adults as their soldiers. So they've yeah, if they just read like adults. So, anyways, I don't know. If that's an egg for you, you can skip it, but um, it follows these two teenagers boys who are stuck in a spaceship together, and they last thing they remember is being told that they were going on a mission to uh a moon of uh planets, and they because the last mission, which was trying to like scope it out to see if it's suitable for a human colony because Earth is dying, um, so yeah, the last thing they remember is being told they were going there to rescue that mission. That's their understanding. And one of the people, the boys on the ship, his sister is was the pilot of the other mission, so he's also trying to rescue his sister. But things are not as they seem, and the more they go on, the more it doesn't feel right, and so they have to try to figure it out. They're also from like rival nations on Earth who are perpetually at war with one another, and so they have to kind of overcome those differences. There's differences in how they've been trained by both of those nations, and maybe the fate of the world rests in their hands. Um, so it's very sciencey, very fiery, very sci-fi, but also like genuinely one of like I I cried reading this, I cried reading the sequel. One of the most tender and emotional romances that I've read in a long time. There's something to that, like you're there is nobody else, right? Like they're on this ship together. There is literally no one else that they could fall in love with. But being convinced by the author that these two people actually are meant to be in love, or like whatever circumstances in their life, like this does work beyond just being the fact that they're the only two people in this scenario, um, I think is really interesting and nice, and it's a good slow burn. So I think give this a try. Um, also because it is a YA book, it's another one that's uh not very explicit, not a lot of explicit, really no explicit content. So if that's something you're also interested in, you can find it here. I would like I I'm gonna read that at some point. It's every time that you told me about it, I've been like, oh man, that sounds so good. Oh man, that sounds so good. It's great. And it is it is truly the plot twist in this. Like, I will say, if again, if you also like Mystery Thriller and you like a good plot twist, it caught me off guard. Almost all plot twists do, to be fair, because I read very uncritically. But like when I'm reading, I'm like, yeah, whatever you say.

SPEAKER_00 57:22

I guess even yeah.

Abigail 57:24

Like if you're an unreliable narrator, I'll believe you. Like you tell her when otherwise. So um, yeah, but I loved it. I thought it was it was quite it like it got me. So anyway, what do what's your sci-fi rec? My sci-fi rec is uh the Ice Planet Barbarian series by Ruben Dixon. Um so I was trying to figure out what IPVs no more. Ice Planet Barbarians. Okay, okay, okay. So the concept here in the first, first of all, there's many books in the series. So if you want to just like absolutely shut yourself in and just gorge yourself on some blue alien smut, this is the book for you. And I'm gonna tell you, this is a very smutty series. So basically, um, the concept here is there is like a spaceship full of girls that they wake up after they've been in a coma and they've all been abducted from Earth by a bunch of little green aliens, and they're being like abused by them and whatever. So they're like, you know what? We've gotta like take over this ship. So they end up like taking, like doing a coup, taking over the ship and landing on this um blue planet that I forget what it's called, but it's like a frozen planet. And when they land, uh they find um a bunch of giant blue aliens. And uh the giant balloon aliens um basically they have had a shortage of females uh of breeding quality and age on their um on their planet. Oh, it's called Nodhof. That's the name of the planet. Oh, Nathan. And um, so they begin um like forming mating bonds with these uh human girls or human women who aren't even able to speak the same language as them. There's many plot twists about like how they're able to understand them, whatever. Um, and anatomically, they are like ex I'll just leave it at that. They're extremely well suited for mating. Um so it's basically like you're gonna bleep this out. Um, I couldn't recommend them enough. They're absurd, they're ridiculous, um, but they're fun and like you're on another planet and there's aliens and there's science stuff you have to figure out. I mean, I don't know. If you like Project Hill Mary, this is basically nothing like that. But it's so fun. I want more people to read it. I love Ruby Dixon. I did just put it on hold at the library. I'm in such a like I am in such a deficit for reading. I'll try it. I read this book in like two hours. Like I was like, I can't, I can't. The problem is they only have the first one in the series anywhere in the library. So I don't know what to do after that. I do you still have K you? Because they're all in connection. No, but I could always get it for another month if I need to lock in. So we'll see how I feel about the first one. I'm yeah, I'm sure they are. Yeah. Um, I highly recommend. Please, if you read Ice Planted Barbarians, personally DM me and I will respond to you, I promise, and we can talk about it. Sometimes I wonder what what what the library like, not that they're thinking about me at all, like they have a job to do, but like I put I feel like I'm pretty consistent with my taste, and then I'll have like Redeeming Love come in, and now it's like Ice Plant of Barbarians. Oh, yeah, if there's a special one for historical fiction, Redeeming Love. Do not read that book.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:24

Nobody should that's not fit for human consumption.

Abigail 1:01:27

Okay, I threw in here Main Bride for fantasy. I actually don't have a lot of thoughts on this, but I just felt wrong that none of mine were Ali Hazelwood recommendations, and I hadn't really mentioned her. I do think she writes great romance. Like, guys, she's she's great at it. So, and they're such easy short books. And probably if you actually like fantasy, you won't like this, but I think Main and Bride are so much fun. So it's uh I think you should read them. I mean, I fully agree. I love these freaking books so much. Yeah. Um totally. I will give you, I will give the readers or the sorry, the listeners that are also readers. Um something I recently talked about, which is the Paladins Grace series. That is actually true. Like if you if you like like Lord of the Rings style, like weird little creatures and like lands that you have to like learn about their magic and shit like that, but you also like a romance, uh, this is equal. I mean, I it's equal fantasy adventure and romance. So you're gonna get plenty of both. And I think that would be a really good entree into reading more. It's not almost here in the classic romanticy. Like, if you're like, ugh, I don't want like a shadow daddy, I don't want then like that. This is not that. This is more like Narnia kind of in this world with these little talking animals and creatures, and like it's just not it's not the typical, is what I'll say. And I think that you should read that. And now that makes me think by somebody T Kingfisher. I was gonna say you should also read The Everlasting. I didn't even think about that, but I've talked at length about it recently. Okay. I mean, hold up. Let me say yeah, check that. While you do that, I did see this guy picked up for a limited series at Netflix. That is the casting that I will burn Netflix to the ground if they miscast Saruna. Are you listening to me, Netflix? If she's skinny, if she's traditionally beautiful, if she's not like big and muscular, I am going to burn Netflix to the ground. And that's it. We are going to burn Utica to the ground. Exactly. No. I'm not even kidding. His eyes. Should I put something in his eyes?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:43

Okay. Like, no, if you thought I'm bad about Beetreed, I will lose my f. Anyways, to available. What are you at?

Abigail 1:03:51

That means you must be next. I can't wait for you to read this. I really think you'll like it. I'm gonna be so disappointed if you don't, but I really believe you will.

unknown 1:03:59

Okay, okay.

Abigail 1:04:00

I'm manifesting that. But yeah, Netflix, that's a warning. I swear to God, if they miscast that you can get to the ground. Yeah, but that's the opposite of a shadow daddy. That's like a a sunlight lady. A sunlight lady, yes. A sunlight mommy. Yes. That's more accurate. Okay. So now you guys know. Please let us know if you for some reason listen to this podcast and don't read a lot of romance, and we've convinced you, please reach out and let us know. We would love to hear from you. And like share these, share these recommendations. Like, if you are a romance reader, here's what you can recommend to others. That's a great point. Totally agree. Or should share this episode with them. Yeah, and let us know. What are we missing? So send us. I need recommendations. I'm I'm in dire straits. Speaking of, what have you been reading recently?

What We're Reading And Why It Hurts

Abigail 1:04:54

What have I been reading recently? Well, importantly, I finally read Minor Black Figures. Um on your recommendation. So uh, I mean, we had an offline off-mic discussion about like the finer points of the plot. Yeah. So it's not a big update to you, but um, because you talk about this book so much and you love it so much, and I've been saying I'm gonna read it, I will update the listeners that I did read Minor Black Figures. It was good. And I think for me, it didn't resonate as hard with me as it did with you, though I still gave it a very high rating. I still thought it was a really great book. I just like for you know, it's kind of just yeah, it's really up to chance whether or not a book is going out to be like hitting like that for me. Yeah. Um, so just shy of five stars for me, but still really good. I would describe this book as like if you had like the way it's written, if you had like a straight line from point A to point B, like a railroad, for instance, there was. Like a track that's like from point A to point B. This book is like a footpath that goes over the path, like goes over the track and like crosses the track at many points, but meanders like in big loops and curves around it. Um and that's not a bad thing, it's just like this is not a book that you're going to want to read if you want to get to the point. Yes, it is not about the point. Yeah. If you're like get to the point, this is not the book for you. Correct. If you this is a book, it is very much about stopping to smell the roses and to enjoy the shade on the footpath. That is meandering around the train track. And it is not a plot-driven book at all. In any sense, yes. I struggle to even articulate what the plot is about. Exactly. Yeah. It's almost plotless. This is a book about the characters deeply. Um, so I enjoyed that. If you don't like that, you're not gonna like it. But that's a good point, yes. But I I did think it was good. Um, and I the characters will be sitting with me for a long time. Um which I shared off off mic with you, but it it almost ended in to me in a way that was like slightly unsatisfying of like yes. When what what now? Like, where are they? Are they okay? Like, yeah, I you don't get this satisfying to me, I didn't get the satisfying feeling of like I was super resolved about like where they are, and um that's also an intentional choice. Everything feels like an intentional choice, yeah. Anyways, um, so I read that. I am also on a totally different note, almost done with um another book called Dogs, Boys, and Other Things I've Cried About by Isabel Clee. Do you know Isabel Clee from TikTok? No, no, okay, so she like uh has fostered like a million dogs, and that is like what her page is about. Did you ever see any content about Tiki the dog? No, no, okay. Basically, she is like a contractor creator writer, and she um has this dog, Simon, and she fosters dogs, and um, so she this is a memoir where she is like using the stories of the different dogs she's fostered to like teach lessons or like give examples about like things in her life, but it's very much a book about like being it mostly covers like her 20s and like what it's like to be a single woman in your 20s, sure, and like navigating life and trying to figure stuff out and living with roommates and being broke, and um also like the dogs that love you and the dogs that you love. I've cried multiple times reading this book. Oh no. Um it's just fear warming. It's a beautiful book. Um as I look at my sleeping dog in the window, it's quite right. It's like you know, she talks about her childhood dog and like the different foster dogs and like relating like the foster dogs and her experience with them to like a lesson she learned from like a shitty ex-boyfriend or something like that. It's nice, yeah. I like that. Um, so it's it's really nice. She narrowed it and listening to audiobook. Um, so I recommend. I think it's great. I think everyone should support should support her. I love that. Okay, over to you. What have you read recently? I have read exactly one book this past since we last recorded, but um, it took me a while. I was reading, I'm not even kidding. This book is, I'll show it to you. I have it next to me. It's not that long, okay? This I was reading every single day. It took me that long to get through that. So that's my warning. This is not for everyone. It's called The Prophets by Robert Jones Jr. Where do I begin? Um, this book is part of me trying to A, I realized my diversity reading has not been good this year. So that was step one. And I've been trying to read more lithic because that's also not been good this year. So that intersection led me to this book, which is Robert Jones Jr.'s debut novel, which makes me sick to my stomach because it's so good. Um, absolutely five stars. Why can't you possibly do next? Yeah, are you kidding me? Like this is I'm I know he has an MFA and a BFA, like he has written other things, but this is his debut full-length novel. Anyways, it takes place um on a plantation in Mississippi during the throes of slavery. We're not anywhere near the Civil War, and um we're emancipation. And the it the every chapter switches, I would say not POVs because it's more of an omniscient narration style, but it switches like the main characters, although, yeah, perspective is probably better. Um, although it always comes back to and the plot centers around um that these two boys named Samuel and Isaiah, they live in the barn on the plantation, they work with the animals and the other things that they need to do by living in the barn, they are enslaved, and they are also lovers or some approximation of that in the circumstances that they live in. And they're like unknown age, but like late 17 to 20, somewhere in there. So, like, still very much boys, and uh the plantation owner wants them to have children because they have been like there's no way to talk about this in a humane way. They have been bred to be like strong, and he wants them to have children because they're strong and they're fit and they're like well more well-nourished than some of the other slaves, but they are not doing that, whether because they're incapable or because they have no interest or because they feel a little like they don't want to. And anyways, that's kind of the plot. That's the the main tension. Um, it also goes back in time to like the first people that were taken and sold into slavery from where they're originally from. So you go back to that and then you come back to the plantation. It is again, it took me a whole this whole time to read because it's very tough to read. Um, it is like very difficult to read. And also it's like written so beautifully, like that I wanted to just sit with it, but also like if it's really hard subject matter. But I would say also it's not like gratuitously, it doesn't feel like trauma porn or like gratuitously graphic at all. Um it's I wouldn't say it's graphic, it's just like sincere to the experience. It's yeah, it's brutal. And it's like I've been I was reading this and thinking like I think of myself as a person who understands that's like I think some people reframe slavery um as like, well, yeah, it's bad that they had to work for no pay, but like, you know, they had a house and they like could live and they they were fed and like you know it wasn't that bad. And like this, I don't think of myself as that kind of person, but this made me to go a step further of like what does it actually mean to have no bodily autonomy, to not have any control over yourself, over your life, over like if you have children, like all of this stuff is out of your control. If you die, if you live, it's all completely out of your control. And what does it mean to like try to love someone in spite of that? Obviously, it's not gonna be a happy ending book. It is horrible, it's brutal. Um, but like the writing, I just can't get over the writing. It felt very poetic. Again, it's probably not for everyone in terms of like the content or the heaviness of it, but also like the writing style is probably not everyone's cup of tea, but I really liked it. So it took me a long time to get through it because I kept rereading passages. Um, and just the way that he's able to describe the South and this plantation in a way that is both beautiful and also like horrifying. Like it does feel at times like a horror story because it's like the stuff you don't even think about of just like how many bodies are buried in the south from uh native people being displaced, from slavery, and uh up until now, like the the soil is like soaked with blood, and it's just horrible. So, anyway, I thought it was really a lovely book and a horrible book, and I've really enjoyed the experience of reading it as much as it also made me feel very ill. And so did its job, like making you did his job, yes, like driving it home and not making it feel palatable in any way. I don't know. I feel like that's the impression I got in the public school system in Georgia was that it was like, oh, this is bad. We shouldn't have people work for no pay, but really you know, not like, oh, that's over. And but like, but also the um gosh, what's the name of that book I'm thinking of? Oh, my grandmother's hands that what you were describing what you think of that book. Yeah, it's a nonfiction book, but it's about um it's about like the trauma we carry in our bodies and like uh strategies for collective healing. And um in the book, he discusses uh like spirituals and like group singing and like in in cultures where there's like when there's uh like funerals, people like scream and yell and tear their clothes, and thinking about um like the the ancestral trauma that you carry in your body, and like now from a public health lens to um like things like like high blood pressure or autoimmune diseases or things like that that are more prevalent for black Americans, and like that is like in the shadow, is like a is an echo of the not so distant past of some of like the most brutal things a human being can do to another human being. And yes, um yeah, I mean, it's like I'm sure for people who whose ancestors were enslaved, it's probably this book's not a great hang, but maybe an important book for someone like you or me to read. Um think about like, yeah, also what does it mean for my body now to know that my ancestors enslaved other people and how like and that's also bad for your body to be that full of hatred that you're enslaving other people. So to end on like a less horrible word, horrible, horrible

Next Book Club: Tyra Banks ModelLand

Abigail 1:16:38

way to end. Yeah, I'm sorry. We have the most delicious episode coming up for you. Um diabolically will be we have secured uh a pirated copy of Model Land by Tyra Banks. Um, I think like an old interview from her like talking about her book that was released in 2011, which is basically like a fictionalized story of her life, I think. Uh, and like a title beam. It's weird as f yeah, it's Sinner's Tuqui de la Creme, and she lives in Modeland. So I might actually have to have like a substance when we record that episode or something. I don't know. We should do a happy hour. That should be a late night uh yeah, that should be like a drink. Yeah, yeah. Anyways, if you want to read along with us, if you can somehow find a copy, it's literally selling on Amazon for $2,000. Yeah, like we're not I'm against pirating. If also had an ebook, I would have bought it respectfully. Also, like maybe, maybe even not, because Terra Banks is kind of like a problematic person. Yeah, so it's like we're not even supporting her. Don't worry about it. No, but the libraries don't have it, anyways. It if you just Google like model and PPL, I'm sure you'll find I'm not saying you're not gonna find it. Yeah. So anyway, we'll be back in case you're desperate to know what is to do like that. We'll be back. We'll be back. We'll be back with a book club episode about Model and by Tower Banks. Okay, guys. Until next time. Love you, bye.