Roth Conversion: Slash Taxes Before Social Security

**What if you could slash your lifetime taxes by hundreds of thousands before Social Security kicks in?** Most retirees miss this critical tax-planning window entirely. If you're retiring before claiming Social Security and sitting on a substantial traditional IRA, you have a unique opportunity to execute strategic Roth conversions during your lowest-income years. This episode explores why the gap between retirement and Social Security represents a goldmine for tax optimization. We'll break down how deliberate conversion strategies can dramatically reduce your lifetime tax burden and discuss the financial planning fundamentals every high-net-worth individual should understand. Whether you're a seasoned investor or new to wealth management, this conversation reveals why timing matters when it comes to retirement tax strategy. Our fiduciary approach ensures your conversion decisions align with your complete financial picture. Ready to talk? Schedule a complimentary discovery call at TDWealth.net. For educational purposes only. Not investment advice. 📖 Full show notes: https://tdwealth.net/roth-conversion-slash-taxes-before-social-security/

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Imagine you spent your entire life, you know, saving millions of dollars over a 40-year career.

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Right, doing everything you're supposed to do.

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Exactly. You're incredibly proud of your massive tax-deferred retirement accounts. But then you discover something kind of terrifying on the day you actually stop working.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

The withdrawal phase is an entirely different beast.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

It really is.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

It turns out you haven't just built a pristine retirement nest egg. You're suddenly playing a multi-decade high-stakes game of chess with the federal government.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Yeah. And most people are playing with uh half the pieces missing. I mean, it is the ultimate blind spot for successful sabers. You spend decades focused on the accumulation phase, maximizing deductions, letting the money grow untouched. Right. But the moment you stop working, the government is looking at how much of that money they actually get to keep.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

And for you, the listener, this tax planning minefield can actually become a massive gold mine if you understand the underlying mechanics. So today our mission is to unpack a major financial opportunity that's basically hiding in plain sight.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

It really is hiding right there.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

We are diving deep into a comprehensive guide authored by Thomas Davies. He is a fee-based fiduciary advisor with Davies Wealth Management based out of Stewart, Florida.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

Great firm.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Yeah. And we're tailoring this deep dive specifically for the listeners of the 1715 Treasure Coast Financial Wellness Community. Our core focus today is a proven five-step Roth conversion strategy designed to significantly slash your lifetime taxes before you ever claim a dime of Social Security.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Which is such a crucial window. I mean, the foundation of this entire strategy relies on recognizing a very specific temporary window of time. The gap, right. Exactly. We are talking about high net worth individuals, so people sitting on$1 million to$10 million or more in tax-deferred assets like traditional IRAs or 401ks.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Okay, let's unpack this.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Well, for this group, a critical gap opens up the very day they retire. It's the years between the retirement date and the day they are legally forced to start taking their required minimum distribution.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

RMDs?

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Right, RMDs and claiming social security. During that specific gap, their taxable income just plummets.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

I love that. Think of this gap like a, well, like a highly exclusive, unadvertised flash sale at a luxury store. The prices, which in this case are your tax rates, they just drop to the floor temporarily.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

Aaron Powell That's a great way to put it.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

But you know, if you don't walk into that store with a meticulously calculated shopping list, you're either gonna completely miss the discount, or uh you're gonna accidentally buy something that triggers a cascade of hidden fees later on.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

Aaron Powell Oh, absolutely. And the urgency of that flash sale is amplified by the current legislative landscape. I mean, we really have to look closely at the year 2026.

SPEAKER_00 2:47

Aaron Powell Why, 2026 specifically.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Because of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, the TCJA, it currently provides historically low federal tax brackets. However, the provisions of that act are subject to ongoing legislative debate and, you know, potential expiration. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Right.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

There's a sunset clause.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Exactly. We are facing immense uncertainty about what future marginal tax rates will actually look like in the 2030s and beyond.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

And human nature usually dictates that when we face uncertainty, we just freeze. Like we just wait and see what the politicians do.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Aaron Powell, which is the worst thing you can do. Waiting is an active decision to surrender control. The mathematical reality shows that proactively converting your tax-deferred assets right now, um, locking in known 2026 rates is far superior to gambling on unknown, likely higher future rates.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Aaron Powell Because we at least know the rules of the game today.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

Right. I mean, we can start by looking at the standard deduction for married couples filing jointly in 2026, which is approximately$30,700.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

Aaron Powell Okay. So if you are in that retirement gap, you aren't earning a salary, and you've delayed Social Security, your baseline taxable income might actually be zero.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

So that standard deduction is essentially a zero percent tax bracket. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

The mechanics of it create a completely free conversion space. I mean, the first$30,700 you move from a traditional IRA to a Roth IRA is entirely offset by that deduction. You pay absolutely nothing in federal income tax to make that move.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

Aaron Powell I have to push back here, though. I mean, I understand the appeal of a 0% tax rate, but for a listener sitting on, say, a$4 million IRA, moving$30,000 is a rounding error. That isn't going to significantly reduce their massive future tax burden. How does this strategy actually scale for high net worth families?

SPEAKER_01 4:35

Aaron Powell Well, the scale of the problem is exactly why generic retirement advice completely falls apart for this demographic. The goal is not just to grab the 0% space. Right. The goal is a highly aggressive, calculated marginal bracket strategy. You want to systematically fill up the 12% bracket, the 22% bracket, and up to the 24% bracket.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

Okay, wow.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Yeah. To put real numbers on that for a married couple in 2026, the 24% marginal tax bracket goes all the way up to an income ceiling of$394,600.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Wait, you are telling people to intentionally generate almost$400,000 of taxable income today?

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Yes. Because you are choosing to pay$24 on the dollar today, specifically to avoid paying 37 cents on the dollar tomorrow. Okay. We really need to clarify how marginal brackets work, though, because people often misunderstand them. If you push your income into the 24% bracket, it does not mean all your income is suddenly taxed at 24%.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

Right. It's stair-stepped.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

Exactly. Only the dollars that fall within that specific band. So between roughly$200,000 and$394,000 are taxed at that rate. The dollars below that are still taxed at the 10%, 12%, and 22% rates.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

That makes a huge difference.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

It does. By maxing out that 24% ban now, you are draining the traditional IRA at a known blended discount.

SPEAKER_00 6:01

Because if you just leave it in there, eventually the government will force you to take it out anyway.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

Right. Under the Secure Act rules, required minimum distributions kick in at age 73 or 75 for those born in 1960 or later.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

And those distributions are not optional.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Not at all. If you let a$4 million IRA grow untouched until age 75, the mandatory withdrawals will be massive. You stack those RMDs on top of your social security and pension, and you are instantly thrust into the absolute highest tax brackets for the rest of your life.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

Aaron Powell Okay. That makes the why incredibly clear. But the how seems infinitely more complicated.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

It requires precision.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

Right. Because if a listener has a massive portfolio, they can't just call their broker and say, hey, convert half of it on a Tuesday. The source material outlines a major issue here, which they call the scale problem.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Aaron Powell Right. You cannot drain an ocean through a garden hose.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Great analogy.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

If you convert too much in a single year, you blow past the 24% bracket, crash right into the 32 or 37% brackets, and completely neutralize the mathematical advantage of the entire strategy.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

So how do you pace it?

SPEAKER_01 7:11

This is step one. It requires mapping your income timeline year by year. You have to project every single puzzle piece: pensions, deferred compensation payouts, real estate income, and projected social security from your retirement date all the way through age 85.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

So you're basically creating a visual topography of your future income to find the valleys.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

Exactly. And once you identify those valleys, those specific gap years were income drops, you move to step two. You determine exactly how high up the marginal tax ladder you are willing to climb to fill them. Got it. What's fascinating here is how this requires a complete psychological rewrite for successful individuals. How so? Well, you spend your peak earning years hiring CPAs to ensure you pay zero tax, right? You defer, you deduct.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

Oh, sure. You want that tax bill as low as possible.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

But the fundamental goal of a Roth conversion is not tax avoidance. The goal is tax optimization. You are aiming to pay tax at the lowest lifetime rate you will ever be offered on that specific block of money.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

I see people make a critical timing error with this concept constantly.

SPEAKER_01 8:15

Oh, the waiting game.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

Yeah. They assume they can just wait until they are like 68, settle into their new retired lifestyle, and then casually start shifting money around.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Aaron Powell The runway is mathematically too short at that point. If you have millions in tax-deferred accounts, you need a long time horizon to spread out the tax burden without spiking your brackets.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

So when should they start looking at this?

SPEAKER_01 8:37

Aaron Powell To do this efficiently, the modeling needs to begin three to five years before you actually retire.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

Aaron Powell Wow. Okay. Well, let's talk about the execution because calculating federal tax brackets is tricky, but it's not a secret. What concerns me are the hidden landmines that those free online calculators completely ignore. Like the government isn't just going to let you generate 400 grand in conversion income without looking at other areas of your life.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Aaron Powell Exactly. This raises an important question, which is how does a sudden spike in paper income ripple through the rest of your financial ecosystem?

SPEAKER_00 9:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

The most dangerous ripple is IRMA.

SPEAKER_00 9:13

Ah, IRMAA, the income-related monthly adjustment amount.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

That's the one. It is a surcharge tacked onto your Medicare Part B and Part D premiums if your income crosses very specific thresholds.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

And the catch is the timing, isn't it? Like it's not a real-time assessment.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Step three is understanding this lag. It operates on a strict two-year lag. The government calculates your Medicare premiums based on your modified adjusted gross income, or MAGI, from two years prior. Oh wow. So a Roth conversion executed in 2026 will directly dictate your Medicare costs in 2028. And unlike tax brackets, which are marginal and progressive, IRMAA is a cliff.

SPEAKER_00 9:55

Meaning if you go$1 over the line.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

You trigger the entire penalty for that tier. For a married couple in 2026, the first IRMA threshold is roughly$206,000 in AGI. Okay. Jumping up through these tiers can hit high net worth retirees with stealth Medicare penalties ranging from$4,000 to over$12,000 a year. Furthermore, we have to factor in the net investment income tax or NIIT.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

I'm glad you brought that up because people constantly get blindsided by the NIT. How does a Roth conversion trigger a tax on other investments?

SPEAKER_01 10:26

Well, the NIIT is an extra 3.8% tax applied to your investment income like capital gains or dividends. If your NGI exceeds$250,000 for a married couple.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

So everything is connected.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Exactly. So imagine you execute a large Roth conversion. That conversion income pushes your NGI to$300,000. Suddenly, the capital gains from a totally separate stock you sold in your brokerage account are hit with an additional 3.8% tax.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

Your conversion just made your other investments more expensive to sell.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

Yes. The domino effect is staggering. It proves you have to model everything simultaneously.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

But let's say a listener navigates the brackets, avoids the IRMA cliffs, accounts for the NIT, and decides to convert exactly$300,000 this year. The tax bill on that might be, say,$72,000. Sure. The source material highlights a fatal flaw in how people actually pay that bill, which brings us to step four.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

It's a huge mistake. The instinct is to tell the custodian, you know, go ahead and convert the$300,000, but withhold the$72,000 for the IRS directly from the IRA.

SPEAKER_00 11:33

Which is just crazy. That is like taking the wood from your ship's hull to keep the steam engine running.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Right. You're moving forward, but you are structurally shrinking the very vessel meant to carry your wealth. Let's look at the actual math. If you withhold the taxes from the IRA, only$228,000 actually lands in the Roth.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Exactly. However, if you pay that$72,000 tax bill using outside funds like cash from a standard taxable brokerage account, the entire$300,000 lands in the Roth? It is fully preserved.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

Which is huge for compounding.

SPEAKER_01 12:09

Huge. Assuming a hypothetical 7% return over 20 years, that extra$72,000 compounding inside the tax-free environment yields over$150,000 in additional wealth.

SPEAKER_00 12:21

But hold on, you're telling me a retiree needs to pull hundreds of thousands of dollars in cash out of the market just to sit in a liquid taxable account waiting to pay the IRS. Doesn't the opportunity cost of having that cash uninvested, you know, the cash drag, doesn't that eat into whatever tax savings we're supposedly getting?

SPEAKER_01 12:41

It is a totally valid concern, but the tax arbitrage actually outpaces the cash drag.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

Really?

SPEAKER_01 12:46

Yeah. When you leave money in a traditional IRA, you are essentially investing in a partnership with the government. And the government can arbitrarily change their ownership percentage by raising tax rates.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

That's a scary thought.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

By utilizing outside liquidity to pay the tax now at known lower rates, you are essentially buying out the government's share of your retirement. The recommendation is to structurally position three to five years' worth of conversion tax payments in stable liquid accounts prior to initiating the multi-year strategy.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

Just to have it ready.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

Right. Specifically to avoid sequence of return risk while funding the tax burden.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Well, here's where it gets really interesting. We've spent this entire time talking about how this impacts the listener while they are alive, but what if they don't spend all this money?

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Step five.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

The generational pivot here is wild. A Roth conversion isn't just an income tax play, it is a fundamental estate planning mechanism.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

It performs incredible double duty. Currently, the federal estate tax exemption is historically high, sitting at$13.99 million per individual. Okay. But for estates approaching or exceeding that limit, Roth conversions are highly effective reduction tools.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

How does that work?

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Well, every dollar you spend from your taxable brokerage account to pay the income tax on a conversion is a dollar that permanently exits your taxable estate. You are actively shrinking your estate tax exposure while simultaneously supercharging the tax-free growth of the asset itself.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

And we absolutely have to dissect how the Secure Act changed the game for the heirs themselves.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Oh, the Secure Act effectively killed the stretch IRA for most non-spouse beneficiary.

SPEAKER_00 14:21

Explain that for the listeners.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

In the past, if you left a traditional IRA to your children, they could take tiny calculated distributions over their entire life expectancy. The tax impact each year was negligible. Right. Today, under the 10-year rule, they are legally forced to completely drain that inherited traditional IRA within a decade.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

So imagine the listeners' children are in their, say, mid-40s or early 50s. They are in their absolute peak earning years. They've finally reached the C-suite or built a successful business.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

They are already sitting in the top federal tax brackets based on their own salaries.

SPEAKER_01 14:59

And then they inherit a$3 million traditional IRA. They are now forced to withdraw an average of$300,000 a year, stacking that on top of their peak salaries. Ouch. That inherited money is instantly subjected to the maximum 35% or 37% tax brackets. The income tax cost to your family on a$3 million inheritance could easily approach$1 million.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

That is just brutal.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

But if you absorb that tax yourself during your low-income retirement gap at a blended 24% rate, you completely change their financial trajectory.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

Right, because it's a Roth.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Exactly. When your heirs inherit a Roth IRA, they are still bound by the 10-year rule, but every single dollar they withdraw is completely income tax-free.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

The contrast is unbelievable. You know, to really solidify this for the listener, let's walk through the exact pain points of a real-world scenario. The source material outlines a classic profile. They call it the retiring executive. Okay. Yeah. We have a married couple, both 62, stepping away from the corporate world. They have 3.2 million in tax-deferred retirement accounts and 1.5 million in a taxable brokerage. And they aren't going to touch Social Security until age 70. Let's look at the do nothing scenario first.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

Well, if they do nothing, they enjoy an eight-year gap of very low taxes. But their$3.2 million IRA continues to grow. Right. By the time they hit age$75, it might be worth$5 million. Suddenly, the IRS demands a massive required minimum distribution, perhaps over$200,000 a year. Right. They add that to their delayed maximized Social Security benefits and any pension income. Overnight, their baseline taxable income rockets past$300,000.

SPEAKER_00 16:45

So they hit all the traps.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

All of them. They are hammered by the highest marginal tax brackets, they trigger maximum IRMAA Medicare penalties, and they cross the threshold to pay the net investment income tax on their other assets.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

So how does the Proactive Roth strategy alter that timeline?

SPEAKER_01 17:04

By utilizing that eight-year gap from age 62 to 69. The modeling dictates they systematically convert roughly$350,000 to$400,000 every year, filling the brackets precisely up to the top of the 24% ceiling. They fund the tax payments using that$1.5 million brokerage account. By the time they turn$70, nearly$2.8 million has been safely transitioned into tax-free Roth accounts. Wow. And the traditional IRA balance is now so small that the future RMDs won't trigger IRMA cliffs or push them into higher brackets. In comprehensive modeling, this specific restructuring regularly yields hundreds of thousands of dollars in pure lifetime tax savings.

SPEAKER_00 17:45

It's essentially manufacturing wealth through sheer efficiency.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

And this logic isn't exclusively for people in their 60s, right? The guide presents a fascinating counterprofile, the professional athlete.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Right. This applies to anyone with highly concentrated career earnings in a short window. Consider a 35-year-old athlete transitioning out of competition. Okay. They might have rolled over$1.8 million into a traditional IRA from team plans or endorsement deals, and they have substantial taxable liquidity. As they figure out their next career move, their income plummets.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

Right. Their gap might last a decade, from age 36 to 45, before their second act really ramps up.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

And because of their age, the compounding mechanics are extraordinary. If they execute conversions of$200,000 annually during those low-income transition years, they shift the bulk of their wealth into a Roth environment.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

And it just sits there.

SPEAKER_01 18:40

It just sits there growing completely tax-free for 30 or 40 years. It insulates them entirely from whatever tax hikes Congress enacts in the decades to come.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

We also have to highlight a massive structural advantage detailed in the source, specifically related to geography. Because Davies Wealth Management operates out of Stewart, Florida, there is an undeniable multiplier effect for individuals relocating to states with no state income tax.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

It is the definition of geographical arbitrage. If you execute a Roth conversion while residing in Florida, Texas, or Nevada, you face zero state income tax on the conversion amount.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

Which is a huge savings.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

The effective tax rate you pay to move that wealth is drastically lower than an individual attempting the exact same conversion strategy in California, New York, or New Jersey. For listeners planning to relocate for retirement, establishing residency in a no-income tax state creates an optimal, highly lucrative window to execute these multi-year conversions.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

It's all about aligning the variables. Well, let's synthesize everything we've uncovered for you. The overwhelming takeaway here is that optimizing a high net worth retirement cannot be solved with a quick back-of-the-napkin calculation.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

No, absolutely not.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

You cannot use a free internet tool to wing this. It requires dynamic fiduciary modeling that simultaneously balances progressive federal tax brackets, delayed IRMA cliffs, the net investment income tax threshold, state residency advantages, and complex multigenerational estate planning limitations.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

If we connect this to the bigger picture, um, the dividing line between an adequate retirement plan and an exceptional one is the shift from tax preparation to tax planning.

SPEAKER_00 20:19

Aaron Powell What's the difference in your mind?

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Tax preparation is inherently reactive. You're looking in the rearview mirror, recording history, and paying what the government tells you you owe from last year. Tax planning is proactive. It is looking through the windshield and actively manipulating variables to legally dictate your future obligations.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

That's a great way to frame it.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

This level of coordination is why Davies Wealth Management offers a complementary fiduciary audit. It allows listeners to actually see these multi-variable scenarios modeled against their own specific timelines and balances.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

So what does this all mean? It means you require an integrated advisory team that views your wealth as an interconnected ecosystem. A transaction-focused broker or an automated robo advisor cannot warn you that a portfolio rebalance today is going to trigger a catastrophic IRMA penalty in 24 months.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 21:10

You possess a distinct, mathematically verifiable window, the gap before RMDs and Social Security forcibly dictate your tax rates. And once that window closes, the opportunity is permanently gone.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

The cost of inaction is simply too severe to ignore when the legislative writing is on the wall.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

It truly is. Which brings us to the end of this deep dive. But I want to leave you with a final thought to mull over something we haven't explicitly asked yet. We spent our entire careers being conditioned by the financial industry to believe that tax deferred growth is the ultimate unquestionable holy grail. Defer your income, defer your taxes, just keep kicking the can down the road.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

Right. That's what everyone is taught.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

But if we just blindly accept that, we have to ask ourselves if you spend 40 years accumulating wealth without designing a precise Exit strategy? Does a multimillion dollar traditional IRA eventually stop being a retirement nest egg and actually transform it to a joint checking account where the IRS holds the majority of the voting rights?

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Well, for millions of unprepared retirees, the IRS is definitely going to end up being their biggest beneficiary.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

Time to take your voting rights back. Thanks for joining us on this deep dive.