AmeriServ Presents: Bank Chats

Why The U.S. Stopped Minting Pennies And What Happens Next

• AmeriServ Financial, Inc. • Episode 29

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In this episode of Bank Chats, Drew and Jeff unpack why the Mint stopped producing pennies, what the proposed Common Cents Act would change, and how rounding cash transactions actually works. We weigh business losses, consumer fairness, and lessons from Canada while sharing practical steps for shoppers and banks.

Be sure to drop us a comment, we’d love to know what you think about the penny going away.


Credits:
An AmeriServ Financial, Inc. Production 
Music by SchneckMind
Hosted by Drew Thomas and Jeffrey Matevish


Thanks for listening! You can find out more about AmeriServ by visiting ameriserv.com. You can also find us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.

DISCLAIMER
This podcast focuses on having valuable conversations on various topics related to banking and financial health. The podcast is grounded in having open conversations with professionals and experts, with the goal of helping to take some of the mystery out of financial and related topics; as learning about financial products and services can help you make more informed financial decisions. Please keep in mind that the information contained within this podcast, and any resources available for download from our website or other resources relating to Bank Chats is not intended, and should not be understood or interpreted to be, financial advice. The hosts, guests, and production staff of Bank Chats expressly recommend that you seek advice from a trusted financial professional before making financial decisions. The hosts of Bank Chats are not attorneys, accountants, or financial advisors, and the program is simply intended as one source of information. The podcast is not a substitute for a financial professional who is aware of the facts and circumstances of your individual situation. AmeriServ Presents: Bank Chats is produced and distributed by AmeriServ Financial, Incorporated.

Drew Thomas:

Fast fact, the Lincoln penny was first minted in 1909. It is the only US coin on which the portrait faces to the right instead of the left. I'm Drew Thomas and you're listening to Bank Chats. All right, so we're back to talk about something that we talked about, about a year plus ago, a little bit over a year something like that. I think we talked about this in what September of 2024, and for those of you that haven't read the title...

Jeff Matevish:

Back then it was called, I think A Penny For Your Thoughts was the title, yeah?

Drew Thomas:

Something like that, yeah. So, if you, if you haven't looked at the fantastic artwork that Jeff always puts together for these on the thumbnails on YouTube, or, if you're listening to this and you haven't read the title of the episode, we're talking pennies again, yeah, and this time we're talking pennies because there have been some serious developments since we had that conversation back in September of 2024.

Jeff Matevish:

Yeah, like within the last few months, I guess, yeah, yeah.

Drew Thomas:

Essentially, the US decided, somewhat out of the blue to just stop doing pennies. Yeah, which we discussed, right? We talked about what, what that might look like, yeah, and whether it was a good idea, right? And now we're sort of faced with that.

Jeff Matevish:

Yeah, now it's a real thing, yeah.

Drew Thomas:

And I don't know that any of us were really expecting, when did, when did you hear about this? Because, honestly, I did not hear about this until several months, apparently, after it had happened.

Jeff Matevish:

Yeah, I heard about it when, when President Trump made the order to cease, you know, the production of pennies. But I didn't think anything of it for whatever reason. Yeah, I just didn't think it was a big deal. But, yeah, now it's becoming a big deal.

Drew Thomas:

I guess, I guess, for me, I'm, I'm still not used to them, and I don't want to turn this into a political thing, but I'm just not used to the idea, I guess, of presidential orders being sort of just automatically followed through instantaneously. I mean, like, there's a lot of presidents that have issued executive orders, and those executive orders don't really do anything, but apparently he signed this executive order in February of 25, is that right?

Jeff Matevish:

Something like that, yeah. I think I must have heard it in March then, something like that.

Drew Thomas:

Yeah. So, we thought that it was a good idea, because it seems like, right now, there are a lot of, there's a lot of confusion around how this is going to work. What's happening currently in the, in and when I say currently, I'm saying as of November of 2025, which is when we're recording this, and how this is going to look going forward. So, we thought that as a public service, because that's what we do, and we talk money, let's talk about how this came about and where we're going to go from here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because we're awesome that way.

Jeff Matevish:

So, this is a full episode. This would have been a good 2 Cents too, because we wouldn't be able to call it a 2 Cents anymore. We'd have to round it right?

Drew Thomas:

That's fantastic. Yeah, yeah. You can't have 2 Cents anymore. It's got to be, I guess it would round to zero.

Jeff Matevish:

Okay, well, we might have to reconsider our name, yeah.

Drew Thomas:

So, yeah. So, so let's, let's start with just a brief introduction here, because I kind of put an outline together with this. Typically, we're not quite this structured when it comes, but I don't want to miss anything, yeah, because there's a lot of information. Yeah. So, let's start obviously, like I said, you know, if you want to, if you want to go into the, the heavy details about why this was being debated, and I got, I got documentation that says it was going back a lot further than I thought it was, why this was being debated and all that. You can go back and listen to our episode from September of 2024 and we go into a whole discussion as to whether it's a good idea, a bad idea, and what would we do. We'll touch on some of that stuff here, I think, today, but we're not going to go into as much detail as we did then. And then, I want to talk about the proposed legislation and how the US is likely to move forward from, from here. Okay, yeah, all right. So, so why was this being debated? Couple of things, cost of production, right of the penny, yeah, a cost of production of the penny.

Jeff Matevish:

It's like, like, three cents, three plus cents to make one penny. Yeah, right, okay, yeah.

Drew Thomas:

Declining use, and then the, the cost, we've kind of touched on this I think. I didn't go back and listen to the other episode, okay, but I think we talked about this, the cost to pick up a penny. Did we talk about that?

Jeff Matevish:

I think so, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it was, like, less than minimum wage to pick up a penny, yeah, the amount of time it takes to actually pick up a penny, yeah.

Drew Thomas:

Yeah, I went and I actually did the math this time, which I don't remember if we actually did the math.

Jeff Matevish:

Okay, I don't think so, yeah.

Drew Thomas:

But the cost to pick up a penny, if it takes you one second to pick up a penny, okay, right, that means that you got paid one cent per second, okay, right? Because you picked up a penny that would so, yeah, one cent per second. So, one cent per second equals 60 cents a minute. Okay, right? 60 cents a minute equals $36 an hour. So, you have to be making more than$36 an hour for it to be worth it.

Jeff Matevish:

No, you have to be making less, right?

Drew Thomas:

So, as long as long as you're making less than $36 an hour.

Jeff Matevish:

Okay, so maybe we were wrong back then.

Drew Thomas:

It's actually, it's actually in your best interest to pick up a penny, but let's be realistic, yeah. I mean, how much is it, you know, although there have been some things happening recently that might make that more, even, even more of a good idea for you, you know, with some of these retailers and some of the things, okay, we'll get to that. Yeah. Okay, so there's that. So, you mentioned the cost of production. So, cost of production, the US Mint started, stated that the cost to make a penny in 2024 was 3.69 cents. Okay, so almost quadruple the value of the penny to make the penny.

Jeff Matevish:

Okay, well, what about other, other coins? I mean, I would assume that it takes a lot more than five cents to, to produce a nickel.

Drew Thomas:

It does. It does as a matter of fact.

Jeff Matevish:

Where's that cut off? I mean, you know, does it take more than 25 cents to make a quarter? I mean...

Drew Thomas:

No, so from what I was reading, it basically costs, the only two that don't make money, okay, are the penny and the nickel. The penny costs 3.69 cents in 2024 to make one penny, it costs 13.78 cents to mint a nickel in 2024.

Jeff Matevish:

So, almost three times the cost of a nickel or the value of a nickel to produce a nickel. So, how is that saving us money? That's, if we're going to be using more nickels?

Drew Thomas:

Theoretically, yeah, that's a really good question. So, they do address that in some of the legislation that is currently being proposed, okay. And we'll talk about that, but that's a really good question. I mean, you could, you could argue that by doing this, you're going to need more nickels in production, in circulation, right, right. And if it costs, if it costs 13 cents to make a nickel, and it costs, you're saving three cents by not making the penny. It's, I don't know where the I don't I still think you're at a net loss.

Jeff Matevish:

I would think so too, yeah.

Drew Thomas:

You know, yeah, yeah.

Jeff Matevish:

Or more people, you are more apt to use nickels than pennies, because that was something I saw, too, that, like, pennies really are just used to give change, like, not a lot of people pay in pennies, yeah, so that's where some of the shortage is too. People are not like, not necessarily, hoarding pennies, but you usually get, receive pennies as, as change more often than you give pennies as payment. Yeah, maybe nickels is the same, or is opposite. Maybe more people are apt to pay in nickels than, than pennies. I guess I don't know.

Drew Thomas:

Um, maybe I really don't know. I, you know, I'm, I'm of the thing, I hardly, I don't want to say I hardly ever pay in cash, because I do use cash, but I don't know that I really, I don't really carry around pocket change anymore.

Jeff Matevish:

I don't either. Kelsey does. She's got her change book. And, really, yeah, and anytime we're, you know, at a register, and it's, you know, there's change involved, wait, I have that, I have that, I have that, yeah. So, I have to wait there for another, you know, 45 seconds till she digs around and finds exact change.

Drew Thomas:

Yeah, but, well, that's good. I mean, at least somebody is using it.

Jeff Matevish:

We're contributing, I guess.

Drew Thomas:

Somebody's using them so, but so a 2005 national survey found that 82% of the population saves their change, which accumulates to billions of dollars in coins that are just sitting around in people's houses, in jars and buckets and dryer lint traps, couches, things like that, you know. I guess the thing is, and I don't know that it's necessarily inflation per se, but I think it's the fact that you can buy so little with less than $1 these days, yeah, that scrounging through the couch cushions and looking for change, you know, it used to be, you could make a phone call with a dime. You can make a phone call with a quarter. You could [buy] penny candy. Yeah, yeah, penny candy. Now it's almost not worth going through your couch cushions looking for coins, because you can't buy anything with what you find.

Jeff Matevish:

That's a good, that's good, yeah?

Drew Thomas:

You know, so people just kind of throw them in jars. And just, I have a jar, I have a coin jar at home, and it just anytime I do get change, yeah, I just throw it in there

Jeff Matevish:

Getting more full, yeah.

Drew Thomas:

A CNN Business article from May of 2025, okay, stated that there are an estimated 114 billion pennies currently in circulation, but that they are severely underutilized, according to the Treasury Department. The math says that 114 billion pennies could fill a cube roughly 13 stories high. That's like 140 feet by 140 feet by 140 feet. Wow, okay. That could fill the, so I was like, well, how much is that? It's a little under the height of the Statue of Liberty without the base. Okay, so, so if you take from the feet.

Jeff Matevish:

I love your measurement.

Drew Thomas:

The feet of the Statue of Liberty, to the almost to the tip of the torch, yeah. And then made that a cube, you could fill it with pennies, with as many that are currently in circulation right now. Statue of Liberty, also incidentally, made mostly for copper.

Jeff Matevish:

That's true, yeah. Well, our pennies aren't mostly made of copper. They're mostly made of zinc now, but true. I mean, not anymore.

Drew Thomas:

Well, the skin.

Jeff Matevish:

I guess, yeah, yeah.

Drew Thomas:

I mean, you know, it's, it's steel inside the Statue of Liberty, but the skin, that's true, yeah.

Jeff Matevish:

So, not, I mean, I guess that's a, that's a large number and a large measurement, but that's not as many pennies as I would have thought in circulation in the United States.

Drew Thomas:

Yeah, yeah. It's, it's, it's pretty crazy. The thing is, I think that, and we're going to get to some of the, some of the consternation that's happening with businesses and people right now over the, oh my gosh, the Mint has stopped making pennies, what do we do? I think the answer is, you get people to get the pennies out of their house and start putting them back into circulation, which some businesses are trying to incentivize people to do. They are, yeah, but sometimes, and I was, I was looking at a, there's a YouTube video out there. I'm sure there are probably several people have literally made flooring out of pennies.

Jeff Matevish:

Oh yeah, they use it for their arts and crafts, yeah.

Drew Thomas:

Yeah. And it's like, well, you can't get those back if they're covered in resin and they're being used as your, as your, as your floor in your kitchen, right?

Jeff Matevish:

Hey, people aren't going to be throwing pennies into the wishing wells anymore. You're going to have to be making a five cent wish now, right?

Drew Thomas:

Yeah, yeah, even, even, even wishes are subject to inflation. So, so have you, so do you think the pennies so, so that becomes, that becomes the other question. Okay, if, if the US Mint stops making pennies, yes, right? Are pennies then going to become more valuable because they're harder to come by?

Jeff Matevish:

Not based on your statistic of how many are in circulation now, no. Okay. I mean, there may be some, like the 2025 the last year that it's minted, you know, theoretically, you know, that's probably going to be, it could be a collector's item, right? It could be worth some more than the, the face value of it, yeah. But we've seen that in the past with like, Bicentennial quarters. People hoarded Bicentennial quarters, and they're still not worth more than 25 cents now, yeah. So, I mean certain years, yeah, I would say that pennies are going to be worth, but there's certain years now that pennies are worth a lot of money. Sure, it's not going to be worth any more money, you know, 10 years down the road, I wouldn't think.

Drew Thomas:

Yeah, I would tend to agree with you. I just that's, that's a good question. I mean, so, so basically, you know, the idea is that, you know, businesses need pennies. People need pennies now, right, because to make cash transactions. Continuing to hoard them, and I would argue people have already been, they haven't been hoarding them, they've just been using them for something other than their intended purpose.

Jeff Matevish:

Yeah, they're not hoarding them on purpose, yeah, they're putting them in a jar, right. Yeah? Because it's like, yeah, just I don't want to deal with this, yeah.

Drew Thomas:

So, continuing to hoard them, or turning them into a thing where we're like, oh, I have this whole jar of pennies, I'm going to keep it, yeah, because it's going to be worth more later, is not really likely, right? You're probably more likely, quite frankly, to get something out of them now than you are 10 years from now.

Jeff Matevish:

Yeah. I mean, they're still going to be considered legal tender for the foreseeable future. So, it's not like you can't turn them back in, you know, 10 years from now, theoretically, I guess, yeah.

Drew Thomas:

And the government isn't paying for them. But some businesses are, yes, we've seen just recently and again, you know, but I mean, this is going to air, you know, in November, we're recording it in November, but who knows what 2026 is going to bring? Even already locally, we've seen at least two different businesses that were offering either like free sodas or something like that, at a convenience store that's around here. We had a grocery store around here that was offering to double your pennies last weekend.

Jeff Matevish:

Did you see what the numbers were on that? I did not. I had it written down somewhere, like they, so they doubled whatever you had given up to, what, $100?

Drew Thomas:

Yeah, so like that, yeah. So, the, the, what they said was, they said, if you had anywhere from as little as 50 cents to as much as $100 okay, they would double it in a gift card to their store. So, 50 cents became $1, $100 became$200 yeah.

Jeff Matevish:

So, they, the results were in. They had collected 100 million pennies in that one day. Wow. So, they gave out more than $2 million in gift cards.

Drew Thomas:

Yeah, but you know what that $2 million is going to be spent at their store.

Jeff Matevish:

Now, that's so they're hoarding all the pennies now, I was just going to say the same thing, yeah.

Drew Thomas:

But that's, it's actually kind of brilliant now, because now you have to use those gift cards at their store, and they're going to get that money back, yeah, in sales, yeah, right. The, I mean, it was actually a pretty smart idea on their, on their part, the question then becomes, why are businesses worried so much about this because of the way that the proposed legislation says that it's going to work. And I think the, the issue is right now that it is indeed proposed legislation.

Jeff Matevish:

Yeah, it's not passed yet, right.

Drew Thomas:

Yeah, right. So, there's, I went back and I looked, and this is definitely not the first time that legislation has been proposed to get rid of the penny.

Jeff Matevish:

I didn't know that. Yeah.

Drew Thomas:

So, there was proposed legislation in 1989, okay, not the Taylor Swift CD. This is, this is...

Jeff Matevish:

And I wasn't a thing yet. So, you know, so I don't know anything about this one. I was not. I was a 90 baby, 1990.

Drew Thomas:

Oh, man, all right. Anyway, so a year before Jeff was born, there, there was legislation put forward called the Price Rounding Act of 1989 and it would have prescribed guidelines for rounding prices to the nearest five cents, including taxes. So, essentially, what they're proposing now they proposed what, 30 plus odd years ago.

Jeff Matevish:

Yeah, 35 years ago.

Drew Thomas:

Then again, in 2007 there was a proposal called the Make No Cents Until It Makes Sense Act.

Jeff Matevish:

This, some of these names are great.

Drew Thomas:

I know right. This would have prohibited the production of any one cent coin until the Secretary of the Treasury and the Chairman of the Federal, Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System separately certified in writing that there was no surplus of one cent coins anywhere in the US. That's a bit of a mouthful, yeah, but I, so what does that mean? Well, I think it means exactly what we were just talking about. It was the idea that there were already so many pennies in circulation.

Jeff Matevish:

That stopping the circulation, stopping the mint, it wouldn't do anything.

Drew Thomas:

Right, so the idea was that until you could prove that nobody had a whole bunch of pennies swirled away in their basement. You couldn't make any, you couldn't make any more pennies, one, one cent coins. I guess, we talked about technically, they're not a penny. They're a one, one cent coin, yeah, one cent piece. But for the sake of purposes, it's the penny. Yeah, we all know it is a penny, right? So that was what they proposed in 2007, yeah. 2017 there was the, this is even worse, okay, the Currency Optimization Innovation And National Savings Act of 2017, which was a Senate proposal, okay, would have suspended production of one cent coins for a period of 10 years, allowing the Mint to produce them only for numismatic purposes, and required a GAO study on the future of the one cent piece.

Jeff Matevish:

So, it was going to be a trial run type thing.

Drew Thomas:

Basically, yeah, I think so. And then there were at least three bills submitted in 2025 including the Common Cents Act, which we're going to talk about. Yeah. So, the issue here, I think, becomes the fact that, without the Common Cents Act having been passed, and the US Mint has already started, or stopped production of the penny. And they originally thought that their blanks were going to last until 2026 but they didn't. They already ran out, so they're no longer minting any pennies. People are kind of losing their mind because there are some laws on the books, specifically local like local government, city, I don't know if there's any state laws on the books about this that prohibit you from charging more for cash transactions than a card, okay, yeah, right. And I think that's where a lot of these businesses are starting to feel the pressure.

Jeff Matevish:

Because so, because they so they can't, so if the, the law went into place that would force these retailers to readjust their pricing so that everyone would be, it doesn't matter if it was card or cash, it would make sense, like you wouldn't have to take a hit as a company to round down?

Drew Thomas:

Yeah, so kind of that. So, right now, they are taking a hit. That's the thing. Without this law being passed, yet, a lot of these businesses are nervous that there could be legal ramifications for rounding up the way that the law proposes them to do, right?

Jeff Matevish:

Makes sense, yeah.

Drew Thomas:

Now, you know how many people are really going to make a big deal and file a lawsuit over two cents, which is essentially what you'd be doing, I don't know.

Jeff Matevish:

Yeah. And, I mean, even personally, there's been times like, oh, you know, everybody knows I pay cash. So, yeah, cash guy paying cash at the window, and I don't even realize I don't get changed back because it was like, two cents or something like that. And then I just drive past, you know, like, so.

Drew Thomas:

Or you throw it in the take a penny leave a penny, or, yeah, right thing, right? Yeah, right, right, right.

Jeff Matevish:

So, yeah, I don't know how many people would put up a fuss for that kind of stuff, either, yeah, and it's, I mean, yeah, a couple cents.

Drew Thomas:

Or you give it to your wife and she puts it in, puts in her purse.

Jeff Matevish:

Yeah, we use it next time. Yeah, you're right. That's, that's that happens quite often.

Drew Thomas:

Yeah, I think there's a lot of coins, I know there's some coins definitely rattling around in the, the, they don't really put ashtrays in cars anymore, but there's little pockets that are now, like, where the ashtray used to be, yeah, yeah. You know, they sort of become, sort of like little collection bins. And I have coins in there that I can use sometimes, if I happen to come across a parking meter or something that still takes coins, yeah, they never take pennies. They haven't taken pennies since I was a kid. I don't, I don't think you can put pennies in.

Jeff Matevish:

No, I think there was a few in Pittsburgh that I saw still took dimes as of a few years ago. But really, yeah.

Drew Thomas:

So, let's talk, so okay, so here's the deal, the Common Cents Act of 2025, which is what is currently in the House right now. It got, it got out of the House Finance Committee, okay, and is currently sitting there waiting as we are currently still in the government shutdown as we record this.

Jeff Matevish:

Oh, that's true, yeah.

Drew Thomas:

So, it's still just sitting there. It states that the Secretary of the Treasury shall cease production of one cent coins for general circulation, but may continue to produce and issue one cent coins for sale as numismatic items. So, what's a new, let's stop here. What's a numismatic?

Jeff Matevish:

So, I didn't know until you said anything, yeah. So, coin collectors, yeah, you know, right, right.

Drew Thomas:

So, if you want to collect one cent, so, so, so those, those coins that you see at like, three o'clock in the morning that are, you know, oh, buy this thing, yeah, you know, I guess, for that, okay, that kind of stuff.

Jeff Matevish:

Normally it's like state quarters, or, you know, some, some special presidential coin, or, now it's going to be pennies, yeah, yeah, okay.

Drew Thomas:

So, so the state is, so the next part is, states, the Act states that all one cent coins minted and issued on any date prior to the enactment of the law shall remain legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes and dues. So, like you said, indefinitely. Okay, essentially, right. You'll be able to use coin. You'll be able to continue to use the pennies you have as money.

Jeff Matevish:

At their face value, yeah.

Drew Thomas:

At their face value, correct. It addresses the cost of producing the five-cent coin, which you brought up earlier, okay. And allows for adjustments to be made to the composition of the five-cent coin, which we call the nickel, obviously, to aid in the production cost reduction.

Jeff Matevish:

So, they're allowed to make it cheaper if they can.

Drew Thomas:

If they can, yes, right. So, if they can find some sort of alloy or something like that to make the bulk of the coin out of, and then just plate it in nickel or something like that, you know, to try to drive that, that cost down to producing nickels, okay. And then finally, it's, it requires that all cash transactions be rounded up or down to the nearest five cents. Okay, okay, so that would make it law that says that it's okay if you're paying in cash, right, that if the value of your, your, your purchase is $5.98 right, that I could charge you $6 okay.

Jeff Matevish:

Okay, but if you're paying with an electronic method, it still would be the original price.

Drew Thomas:

Correct. Okay, it would still be $5.98 if you paid with a card. Right now, there are some people that argue, and they could be right about this, I don't know, that argue that some of these local laws that state right now that you have to pay in exact change that you have to give exact change, right? Makes sure that people who are disproportionately lower income, they tend to pay more with cash for some reason. Whether it's because they can't get a bank account, they can't get approved for a credit card, whatever it is, yeah. So, the idea is that you're, you're, you know, some of these laws are put on the book saying that it's, it's not fair to disproportionately target cash transactions for the people that can least afford to pay more. Right, to make them round up. Okay, right now, again, we're talking as much as two cents, right, right? Because, you know, if it's a, if it's 101, 102 it or if it's yeah, if it's 101, 102 it goes down, to 100.

Jeff Matevish:

I saw a photo describing this, and it was like, there's like, four different lines, like, if it's if it ends in a two or three, it rounds, or one or two, one or two rounds down, yeah, three or four rounds to five. Yeah, five is five. Five is five. six, seven rounds down to five. Eight, nine rounds up to zero, right?

Drew Thomas:

Okay, so all things, all things considered, you're probably going to break even. Essentially, at some point, if you're, especially if you're like you, and you pay a lot in cash, you're probably going to break even, because in some transactions, you're going to gain two cents, and some you're going to lose two cents, right?

Jeff Matevish:

Do you think people are going to be buying more in bulk and trying to do less transactions now that, I mean, again, it's not like it's a lot of money, but I guess the least amount of transactions could be the least amount of money lost out of your pocket for rounding I guess.

Drew Thomas:

Well, so, so that, I'm glad you said that, because that is where we're running into with these businesses. It's not a lot of money to you, right, but it's a lot of money to the business.

Jeff Matevish:

Yeah, you're right.

Drew Thomas:

It's not a lot of money to you, right? To you, it's as much as two cents, yeah, to a business, right, it could be a lot more so, according to a BBC article from October 31, 2025, businesses are desperate for pennies because of these local governments that often require businesses to charge the same price or less, you can always, you can pay less for cash, like, there are people that, laws that say, like, you can give, you know, like, you know, pay less for cash, right, for cash transactions, as they do for checks or debit credit cards, right? Some cities like New York City, so we're not talking like little towns here, we're talking New York Metropolitan, New York City, yeah, yeah, millions of people, yeah, right. Require retailers to give exact change. Okay, okay. So, to avoid a potential lawsuit, many businesses have chosen to round down to the nickel, even if the rounding should go up, which potentially causes a business to lose up to four cents per transaction. Well, because, yeah, because they would normally round down for one and two anyway, yeah, but now they're also running down for three and four, so instead of rounding up to five, right? Yeah, so the convenience store QuikTrip, which I mean, we you ever, I'm, sidebar, okay, have you ever noticed that QuikTrip only advertises at Christmas for like, some poor schlep that can't get home, and somebody sends them a QuikTrip gift card for gas, and so they could travel across the country and get home for Christmas?

Jeff Matevish:

Yeah, don't I can't honestly say that I remember any QuikTrip commercials whatsoever. They're not very memorable to me, but, yeah, I'll take your word for it.

Drew Thomas:

You'll probably remember the next time you see one, because now that, because we're getting into that time of year when they, they seem to, it's the only time I ever see advertisements for QuikTrip is, yeah, is whenever they're, they're advertising somebody that can't get home for the holidays, and somebody sends them a QuikTrip gift card, and suddenly they can.

Jeff Matevish:

So, at 11 o'clock at night one day, I'm a text Drew, I saw one I saw one!

Drew Thomas:

I saw the QuikTrip gift card. It's probably on the Hallmark Channel whenever you're watching. Oh, yeah, yeah. So, anyway, QuikTrip said that they now anticipate losing up to $3 million this year, wow, because of the rounding down on cash transactions, because they have so many stores and so many transactions per day that it multiplies out to the idea that they, and they're doing it because the law, the federal law, has not been passed yet, right, right, right. So, it's technically still illegal for them to round up, and we live in such a litigious society anymore that I guess so many businesses are just terrified that somebody is going to sue them over this.

Jeff Matevish:

Yeah. And this is a bad time of year for this to happen too. We're coming into the holiday season. So, I mean, people are Christmas shopping more, so businesses are going to be losing a lot more money if they're rounding down.

Drew Thomas:

Yeah, and so the question becomes realistically, like, who, you know, when I was reading about this, and I'm looking at this different stuff, and I don't know how you feel about this, but do you remember when Facebook used to be popular?

Jeff Matevish:

Yeah, yeah. I remember Farmville and, you know, poking people right.

Drew Thomas:

Okay, so when Facebook and then there was a time when Facebook changed. They made like, their first like, major change to their interface, okay, yeah. And people lost their mind over the idea that the menu had changed and the stuff was in a different place than they were used to. And then everybody just kind of got used to it. It was not a big deal. Everybody get and then Facebook, like, two or three years later, made another change, and people lost their mind again, right? You're messing with my heritage or my whatever.

Jeff Matevish:

People get used to change. It takes a little bit of time, but everybody gets used to change. I mean, if you didn't, then, you know, I don't know what would happen.

Drew Thomas:

Yeah, but I think there's, I think there's, there's something to be said for the fact that right now, I think there's a lot of hand wringing happening over this. But if you think about it, and if you're the type of person that normally pays in cash and whatever, if you're honest with yourself, I don't imagine that there are a lot of people who really got upset if they didn't have a penny or two. I mean, we're literally talking up to two cents here, right, right, one way or the other, yeah, all right. You had the take a penny, give a penny, at like every register for that exact reason, because people didn't want the change back, so they'd throw it in there. Yeah. And then there was this idea that, you know, hey, one day I need a penny, I can just take one, right? They were just literally sitting on the counter for anyone to grab.

Jeff Matevish:

Right as a convenience, like I said. I mean, you get paid in pennies. You don't, you really pay with pennies, right?

Drew Thomas:

Yeah, right. So, you know, is it, is it really true or realistic that these businesses are worried that somebody is going to sue them over two cents per transaction? I don't know. Yeah, I honestly don't know. And I'm not trying to insult anybody who literally feels like that, hey, those two cents matter, they're getting gypped. I mean, I get it. I mean, I was a struggling college student at one point in my life. I mean, I understand that to some people, every penny matters, but you're also considering the fact that, you know, you could potentially be gaining and losing, just like the, it's, it's kind of like to give a penny, take a penny, right? On one transaction, you're going to benefit two cents. On another transaction, you might lose two cents, but all things being equal, you're probably going to just about break even. Yeah, you know when it when it when all is said and done, right, right.

Jeff Matevish:

Do you think, do you think more people are going to start, I mean, I know electronic payments, debit cards, credit cards, they're, I mean, the most common form of payment now, do you think that's going to be even more so now that the penny is going, gone away? I mean, you think that force people, not force people, but persuade people to use electronic payments more?

Drew Thomas:

Um, maybe, I mean, it depends I, I don't know. Well, let me ask you, you're a cash guy. Is that going to present is it, is are you going to promote you to use the electronic transactions even more?

Jeff Matevish:

I don't know. It probably would depend on the, the total, the cost.

Drew Thomas:

Well, yeah, it doesn't but, I mean, all things considered, it doesn't really matter what it is literally. I mean, you could be buying a billion-dollar plane, yeah, but if the billion-dollar, I don't know if they make billion-dollar planes, but if they make you a$10 million you know, Boeing 747, yeah, if it ends up being 47 cents, it's still$1,000,000,000.45 Yeah, you know, whatever.

Jeff Matevish:

So, I guess yeah, it doesn't really matter, then, yeah, yeah.

Drew Thomas:

I don't know. So, I went back and looked and other countries have done this, and we did, we did mention that. I know we talked about that back in September of last year, but I did want to mention that in this one too, just to sort of, I don't know, reassure people, maybe.

Jeff Matevish:

We're not trend setters, yeah, I mean...

Drew Thomas:

Yeah, like this has been done and done successfully, yeah, quite frankly, in other countries. The most recent, I think, was probably Canada. The Economic Action Plan of 2012 in Canada is when they announced they were eliminating their one cent coin. At the time it was costing their government 1.6 cents to produce their penny. So, they were, they were a little bit more assertive than we were. They waited until it cost a half, a half as much over, over the cost to eliminate, yeah, we waited until it was almost four times as much to do the same thing. But Canada was following in the footsteps of other countries, Australia, Norway, Switzerland and the United Kingdom have all removed their lowest denomination coin and done it quite effectively. And essentially, they did what the Common Cents Act of 2025 is, is suggesting in that they, the coins still remain legal tender, right? If you, if you have a penny or whatever, I think it's, I think it's actually called a penny in Canada, if I remember, okay, maybe not, but if you have a penny in Canada, you can still spend it, okay. And it's indefinitely, still considered legal tender, non, non-cash transactions are still settled, or we're still settled to the cent, just like we're proposing here. Okay? So, I think the issue here is not so much the getting rid of the penny, it's the fact that we kind of put the cart before the horse. We eliminated production of the penny before the law was in place that told businesses and organizations, what they were legally allowed to do about those transactions that are, that are needing to be rounded one way or the other.

Jeff Matevish:

Yeah. So, how does that going to affect, like banks? I mean, if someone comes in with a paycheck that ends, you know, not in a zero or a five, are we going to, you know, require them to deposit that check to be able to give them their full amount or, I mean, would a bank round too?

Drew Thomas:

You know, I mean, really, that's, that's a good question, and I would imagine that every bank is going to have to make that decision. I mean, if you really want to make sure that everybody gets to the penny what they're supposed to get, you might have to simply tell them, hey, listen, you know, we can deposit to the penny, but we can only provide cash to the nickel. Yeah, you know, or something like that. That's a good question. Yeah, I'm not really sure, because if electronics are to the penny, then you know, if I come in with a check for $887.42 right, and I say, hey, just, you know, deposit, deposit, $800 give me the rest in cash.

Jeff Matevish:

Then you would have to round, yeah.

Drew Thomas:

They might, they might have to say, like, all right, well, listen, I can either give you 80 cents, yeah, or 40, 40 cents, whatever, whatever yeah, I can't even remember what I said.

Jeff Matevish:

So, 40, 40 cents, or deposit that 42 cents into your account, right.

Drew Thomas:

Yeah, yeah, if you're really insistent on making it to the penny, it's just going to have to be deposited to the penny in your account electronically. Yeah, you know. But these are all questions that, that should be asked and answered before you will remove the piece from production.

Jeff Matevish:

Yeah, you would think to have a plan prior, yeah, yeah, you know.

Drew Thomas:

I don't know. I mean, and going back to what we started talking about, too, there is a thing where you simply could just go through your house and try to find some pennies. I mean, you know.

Jeff Matevish:

Well, and even it out to the nearest five or, you know, pay, pay a little bit extra or?

Drew Thomas:

No, I mean, just take them out of the jar and actually start using them, okay, you know. And I think that's where, again, like some of these businesses are trying to acquire pennies because they don't want to be like this, you know, QuikTrip or whatever, that's, you know, saying that they could lose $3 million a year in cash transactions. So, they need pennies on hand, and they can't get them from their banks anymore, because the banks can't order them from the federal government anymore, the Federal Mint, I mean, Mint. So, if the banks can't get them, they can't just go to the bank like they used to and say, hey, give me a box of 100 you know, $100 worth of pennies. Like, sorry, yeah, can't give them to you. You know, we don't have them. So, this is very interesting. I honestly don't know that I expected this to ever actually happen in the United States, because we debate things to death. I mean, my goodness, this has been debated since 1989.

Jeff Matevish:

Right. And, you know what, and whether this sticks or not, we don't know either. I mean, we could find out that this completely fails and, you know, everybody revolts, and we go back to minting pennies.

Drew Thomas:

I hope not. I mean, whether it's being done right or not, I think we've already gotten down the road far enough that it just should be allowed to play itself out. Yeah, especially if there are, what did I say, 114 billion pennies in circulation out there somewhere? I don't think it would be that hard to scrounge a few of them up. I mean, not everybody used them and encased them in resin for their kitchen floor. I mean, there are definitely pennies in jars and cars and on sidewalks, yeah, sidewalks, yeah, in your couch cushions, wherever that you can find. I wouldn't be surprised, though, at least in the short term, until this law is passed, to see more businesses doing sort of promotions where they are trying to, you know, entice people to bring their pennies into them for their change use and things like that, yeah.

Jeff Matevish:

So, they save money, yeah.

Drew Thomas:

Yeah. So, you know, to your point of like, don't hoard them, right, I mean, you actually might get more for your, I mean, that, the grocery store that was doing a two-for-one deal, yeah, I don't know that you're going to get a better deal on a penny than doubling it. Oh, yeah, right. We may, I mean, who knows, we may be doing this again in a couple months. You know, having a conversation about this.

Jeff Matevish:

Once the, once the law passes, yeah, you know, if there's any amendments or anything like that. Yes, what's come of it, yeah.

Drew Thomas:

Be very curious to hear from people. I mean, we have a link in the description all the time where you can provide feedback about the show. It doesn't get used that much. So, we'd love to know people's opinions. You know, if you're watching us on YouTube, leave a comment. If you're listening to us on the podcast through Apple or Spotify or whatever, there's a link in the description, or our website, there's a way for you can give, I'd love to know what people think about this. Are they upset about the penny going away? Are they not? Does it, does it even matter to them? Yeah. I mean, does it, you know.

Jeff Matevish:

To people who pay electronically, it doesn't really matter at all, right?

Drew Thomas:

Yeah. I mean, if you're primarily a debit or credit card user or check I mean, if you're still writing checks at the grocery store, I need to talk to you, because you're holding me up. It's taking too long, a debit card does the exact same thing without you having to stand there and write the check. But technically, you could still do that to the penny and it'll still work. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. I don't know I but...

Jeff Matevish:

Once, once the government opens up, well, we'll have a better idea.

Drew Thomas:

Yeah, I'm really, I mean, honestly, I'm really hoping that by the time this actually is out there, and we typically don't record these that far in advance, yeah, I'm really hoping that by the time this airs that the government is reopen, you know, so that when you're listening to this, that isn't an issue anymore. And maybe there's a lot, maybe this bill has already moved forward. Yeah, at the pace that our government tends to go, I doubt that it's going to move forward that fast, but it might.

Jeff Matevish:

But if it's that big of a deal and retailers are, you know, complaining, and people are complaining, maybe it will get pushed a little bit faster than normal. Yeah.

Drew Thomas:

And, and you'd have to think that some of these local governments are going to have to amend some of their local laws too, because you can't, you know, you can't have a national law that says rounded up to or down to the nearest five cents, and then have a local law that says, hey, you got to give exact change right, right? That's, you know, right. So, you know, and hopefully, local government, you would think, because it's a smaller area, could move faster than, than but, you know, again, you know, when you're talking about a city the size of New York, this isn't affecting 25 people in some small town in Iowa, like this is a, you know, that's a big deal. So, you can understand why these businesses, again, when they're multiplying these transactions, it's two cents to you, but it's two cents times however many customers came in that day, right? Times 5,000 transactions per store to that, to that business, right. Right. So, so I get it. I mean, I get why they're, they're kind of worried about what to do, you know, and they're, they're erring on the side of caution to provide, you know, the to, the error, error rounding in the customer's benefit. But it's, it's really costing some of these businesses to do that. Sure is, yeah. And so if you are a, if you are a cash paying customer or something, keep that in mind, particularly with your small businesses and things. I mean, November is small business, you know, Saturday, and we champion small businesses a lot. You know, entrepreneurship month, you know, keep that in mind. You know, don't, don't, don't make your neighbor sweat the fact that they're giving you two cents one way or the other. All right, anything else?

Jeff Matevish:

No. Possibly to be continued.

Drew Thomas:

Possibly To be continued. I feel like, I feel like it's the end of that, Back To The Future that like to be continued. Yeah. All right. Well, hey, I think I've paid more than a penny for your thoughts.

Jeff Matevish:

We'll round, that's all right.

Drew Thomas:

We'll round. All right. All right. Thank you.

Jeff Matevish:

This podcast focuses on having valuable conversations on various topics related to banking and financial health. The podcast is grounded in having open conversations with professionals and experts with the goal of helping to take some of the mystery out of financial and related topics, as learning about financial products and services can help you make more informed financial decisions. Please keep in mind that the information contained within this podcast and any resources available for download from our website or other resources relating to Bank Chats is not intended and should not be understood or interpreted to be financial advice, the hosts, guests, and production staff of Bank Chats expressly recommend that you seek advice from a trusted financial professional before making financial decisions. The hosts of Bank Chats are not attorneys, accountants, or financial advisors, and the program is simply intended as one source of information. The podcast is not a substitute for a financial professional who is aware of the facts and circumstances of your individual situation.

Drew Thomas:

To people living in the United States in 1857, having half cent coins rattling around in their pockets was considered normal. To us, it's history. I think we all tend to believe that the way it is, is the way it always will be, but that's just not so. To force a bad pun, change is inevitable, despite that fact, people tend to dislike it. We don't generally enjoy being forced out of our comfort zone, but when that happens, we discover a new normal. Whether it's good or bad, largely depends on your outlook. I don't think the phrase a nickel for your thoughts is ever going to catch on, but you never know. I guess my point is try not to get too frazzled by this new normal. With 114 billion of them out there, pennies are likely to be around at least as long as you want them to be. And rounding cash transactions up or down over enough time, means we're all going to break even. AmeriServ Presents Bank Chats is produced and distributed by AmeriServ Financial, Incorporated. Music by SchneckMind. Our executive producer is Jeffrey Matevish. You can enjoy all of our episodes on your favorite podcast app, or you can find us on YouTube. For now, I'm Drew Thomas, so long.

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Drew Thomas

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