#163: What does real inclusion look like in the classroom? Supporting neurodivergent students | Interview with Verity Harvey

What if the biggest shift you could make for your most complex students had nothing to do with behaviour charts, consequences, or reward systems — and everything to do with the way you see them?

In this episode, I'm sitting down with the incredible Verity Harvey — an educator with over 20 years of experience in inclusion and disability, a passionate advocate for neurodiversity, and one of the keynote speakers I'll be joining at EduTech 2026 here in Sydney (more on that soon!). Verity brings a wealth of experience from early childhood through to complex disability settings, and she is now working in mainstream schools to help educators do inclusion really well.

Verity's whole philosophy is built around the idea that behaviour is a message — and that if we can shift from a "behaviour management" lens to a "problem-solving" lens, everything changes. She's deeply influenced by the work of Dr. Ross Greene and his Collaborative Proactive Solutions model, as well as Dr. Bruce Perry's neurosequential framework, and she brings all of that together in a way that is warm, practical, and genuinely actionable.

We talk about what Universal Design actually looks like in a busy classroom, why regulation has to come before reasoning (every single time), and why the iceberg analogy isn't just a metaphor — it's the key to depersonalising behaviour and showing up calm for your students.

Verity also shares a deeply personal story about her son — a moment at swimming lessons that perfectly illustrates how systems still have a long way to go in understanding and accommodating neurodivergent kids. You're going to want to hear it.

In this episode, you'll learn:

• What Universal Design for Learning actually looks like in a real classroom — not the theory, the tangible stuff
• The three R's from Dr. Bruce Perry: Regulate → Relate → Reason (and why skipping steps doesn't work)
• What's really under the surface of big, concerning behaviours — and how understanding it helps you depersonalise and stay regulated yourself
• How the iceberg analogy applies to kids AND teachers — and what to do with that
• The one mindset shift that will change how you walk into your classroom tomorrow
• How school leaders can build systems that actually support teachers to support their most complex students
• Why "just be kind" isn't quite enough — and what gets in the way of that for even the most compassionate teachers

Come and join us at Edutech Sydney 2026! Use code UNTEACH26 for a discount on your event pass.

RESOURCES AND MORE SUPPORT:

• Shop all resources
• Join The Behaviour Club
• My book! It’s Never Just About the Behaviour: A holistic approach to classroom behaviour management 
• The Low-Level Behaviour Bootcamp
• Free guide: 'Chats that Create Change'

Connect with me:

• Follow on Instagram @the.unteachables
• Check out my website

Transcript

Welcome And EduTech Partnership

Verity’s Path Into Inclusion

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Hi there, teachers. Welcome to the Unteachables Podcast. I'm your host, Claire English, and I am just a fellow teacher, a toddler mama, and a big old behaviour nerd on a mission to demystify and simplify that little thing called college room management. The way we've all been taught to manage behaviour, and classroom manage has left us playing crap control, which is not something I subscribe to because we're not fans of my teachers. So listen in as I walk you through the game-changing strategies and I mean the things that we can actually do in action in a classroom that'll allow you to lean into your beautiful values as a compassionate educator and feel empowered to run your room with a little more calm and dare I say it, a lot less chaos. I will see you in the episode. Hello, wonderful teachers, and welcome back to the Unteachables Podcast. If you're only just tuning in for the first time, hello, I'm Claire, I'm your host. It is so nice to have you here. Now, this year is shaping up to be a huge one in so many ways. And one of the biggest things happening is that I will be at EduTech 2026 here in Sydney as the podcast partner. And kind of what that means for the podcast is that I'm going to be bringing some of the keynote speakers here onto the podcast to share their insights and their expertise with all of you. And these educators are doing some incredible, inspiring, and innovative things in the space. So I'm just pumped. I can't wait. And one of those incredible educators who I'm going to be speaking with today is Verity Harvey. Verity works in Peter 12 independent schools and has over 20 years experience leading within the inclusion and disability space. Verity is a very passionate educator in embodying changes and modifications in content and teaching methods and pedagogies and structures and strategies, all those good things in education to promote strengths and overcome those barriers for students in their learning. Verity believes that what's necessary for some works for all and advocates for universal design and whole child approaches in education. So she's very well placed here on the Unteachables Podcast. You're listening for any amount of time, you'll know that that's definitely my jam. Verity shows a special interest in neuroscience and supporting neurodivergent people as they navigate their emotions through schooling, learning, relationships, and everyday life situations. Verity has specialized in autism, ADHD, and positive behavior support. And reading that, wow, Verity, I am so excited to jump in and talk to you. Welcome to the Unteachables Podcast. Hi there, Claire. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast. I'm super excited to be here. Excellent. So before we dive into strategies and neuroscience and all of the things, I'd just love to start by getting a little bit of, you know, your vibe. Like, you know, what's your why? What drew you into the inclusion and disability space? Like how is that kind of shaped?

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Oh, well, that's an interesting, an interesting journey. Um, I'll try and sum it up as quickly as I can. And apologies if I go a little bit off track, but I get excited um when talking in this space. So um I guess that I always was destined to go into teaching. I've always loved, you know, being social and interacting with people and having fun and being creative and singing and dancing and high energy and all the things. So I went into teaching um when I was fresh out of uni. And my first little class that I had as a preschool teacher, I came across um a child with autism and um at that time had no idea what I was dealing with, um, but really found interest in understanding that brain and what I could do to support that child. Um, they were the days where, you know, speech therapists, language therapists, allied health professionals would just pop in once every, you know, two months and give you a few visuals and give you a few ideas, and then that off they popped again, and then there was just no traction on that. Um, so you're in there, you know, floundering around trying to work it out for yourself. But I um I really found an interest in those brains. And um I then took myself over to London and started getting into special education over there, where it was really that um sort of segregation time. Um, we'd sort of move from full exclusion to segregation. Let's pop the kids into another building, into another area, into another campus in this case, and let's bring the special educators and the therapists into a school and do it that way rather than having them in the mainstream setting. So I did a lot of that, but I I worked alongside some magnificent um therapists uh that worked in in transdisciplinary practice and you know, in that time learned to be a teacher, an OT, a speech therapist, um, you know, a behavior support um therapist. And I learned so much in that that I came back to Australia and then I went into really complex disability. Um, so I just I'm just obviously fascinated in this space and have gone into so many different areas. But when my son, who is now 10, was diagnosed with ADHD at the age of six, and I saw all the ins and outs and fallouts of that for him. Um and then that led to my husband being diagnosed, and then myself looking at what's going on with my brain. Um, I just was thinking, this is everywhere, you know, this is something that we need to understand, not just in schools, but just in our in our society. Um and so then I started going into the deep dive of um neuroscience, but also positive psychology and well-being. And and now I'm just obviously really focused on it, not just from an educator perspective, but you know, from a mother, from you know, a mentor, from a friend, because obviously so many families go through these journeys, and there just has to be a different way of seeing and doing. So um now I'm in mainstream schools and taking all that specialist expertise um into inclusive spaces now. We've sort of gone from the exclusion to the segregation to the, you know, integrate them into the classroom with a few accommodations here and there that may or may not work, but we're we've got them in there and we're doing the inclusive things, but really doing the deep dive on what goes on for each of these students and how can we make their day um engaging and purposeful, and uh how can they be understood and uh accepted? Like that's really what I what I'm into, and I'm also very invested in behavior, but not just looking at that concerning behavior model, but behaviors are problems, unsolved problems. So I'm quite obsessed with um Dr. Ross Green, if you've ever come across the collaborative proactive solutions model, and just you know, how powerful some of the training I've done with him has helped me uncover barriers for students learning from a lens of listening to the child and what their problems are. Um, so that's really where I'm at now, and then trying to work alongside educators to unpick that and make it work for that busy classroom where you've got 25 children with all different needs at all different times. Um, how do you do that successfully? So, how do we build systems in schools to come from that strength-based student voice lens to unsolve problems, you know, to solve problems rather than um manage behaviors?

SPEAKER_00 8:42

You have got such a wealth of experience, and I think it's so interesting hearing all of the different kind of like phases you've probably seen in the whole in the whole like inclusion and and how far we've come, but also how many barriers are still there for teachers to be able to create classrooms that are based around inclusion and you know, yeah.

From Play To Explicit Skills

SPEAKER_01 9:08

And you know what's quite interesting, it all circles background. So when I was in um my first years of early childhood teaching, uh the focus was really on emergent curriculum, you know, students learning through doing, students learning through play, students learning by contextually being in a learning environment. And after 10 years of that model, we came to kids that were just getting stuck with more explicit micro-skills that they needed for adaptability in the classroom, but also to just meet everyday curricular demands, behavioral demands, and routine demands within schools. So in the work that I've been doing recently, and especially with the impact of technology coming in and you know, reshaping, you know, our generation of kids and probably us as adults as well, is that there's lots of those um skills, those skills that are lagging to meet expectations that we're now explicitly trying to unpick and teach explicitly. So we've come back around to, you know, having small group explicit teaching models back in schools. But if you actually ask the children, a lot of them do like that. So, you know, there was a real focus a few years ago that all kids should be in classroom learning the same way, the same opportunities. But now, you know, I've been really talking to teachers about well, what's going to best fit this child? Let's get their take on that. Do they prefer to be learning these skills in a small group? And then the teachers and, you know, the specialists and the therapists embedding that back into their daily life with a collaborative, that collaborative lens. I think that's really where we're coming back to. And not one model fits all. And I think if the more we understand about the child's operating system, their brain, their background, what's under the surface of any behaviors that might be of a concern, we actually start to unpick what the best approach is to getting them on track and back on track. And there's just not one way of doing that. It's taking the expertise of so many people to collaborate to get that right. Not one intervention, not one explicit approach is going to work for all kids as well. Like that's really something that I'm coming up against in the learning support space in this these times. Yeah.

Universal Design That Works Daily

SPEAKER_00 11:34

Yeah, that's fascinating. And again, it brings back the fact that, like, as an individual teacher in the classroom with just say a class of 30 students, and we have students with a whole host of varying needs and abilities and literacy levels and numeracy levels, and like it just feels so hard. The one thing you do talk a lot about is universal design and what works for some works for. So I know that there are always going to be situations, and with every single student, especially neurodivergent students, students with additional needs, and you know, everything in between that there are going to be things that are needing to be individualized. And there are going to be things specific for that student that are really important that we know as educators that are in the room with them. But when it comes to like the day-to-day systems and workings of our classrooms as teachers, what does universal design and you know meeting the needs of as many students as we can look like?

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Yeah. And again, like this is something we're constantly discussing and fine-tuning. But I the more I work with educators, the more um I feel educators are shifting the ground on the way they think to approach universal design, which is just it's just magnificent because we do have to, you know, get with the times we're in and recognize that, you know, these brains and the way that kids are operating and you know, the influences in their lives, and you know, this is where we're at. This is, you know, we're we're here. Um, it's our new normal. Um and I think with universal design, it's firstly having those classroom structures that, you know, how are we best communicating with students, what our expectations are, and how well do we know our students to make sure that we can put a system in place that pretty much ticks the boxes for all or most of them based on what they're needing to engage. Um, you know, so do we have systems in our classroom that um provide students with the information um of what they have to do and what's expected? And as we know, um, you know, a lot of kids that are neurodivergent or have uh language needs or what have you, they need explicit um chunks and visual supports and all those systems, but that benefits all kids. You know, a visual timetable on the board, you know, I think tick, tick, tick, we see that across all schools. But when we're actually breaking down that to the nitty-gritty, um, a lot of our kids need more explicit understanding of what half-hour chunks look like, you know. And um I think teachers do a great job. We're gonna do this today, we're gonna do that today, and you know, explaining to the kids. But not all kids can process the verbal. So if we compare the verbal with multimodal communication systems that are simple and easy to pluck and easy to scribe on a board, or um, use visual lesson components to just space out each component of a lesson, use digital timers or get a kid to set a watch timer if they're one that's inclined to need to know. Um, use those simple strategies to what do I have to do? What's expected of me? And how do I do it? Like, are we using exemplars consistently? Um, are some kids in the classroom better with video models? Like, is there something that we can build up in our um resource bank that shows a child and over time that resource is picked up when we teach that in the curriculum again? You know, how are we building resources to best communicate to kids how they do it? And if we know the child and one child might need an exemplar and you know, another might need a video, you can provide those choices and those options in different ways quite simply when you're creating the resources you're creating. Um, there's so many technologies now that you can whip those up so quickly. You know, you can use AI, you can, you know, what you could use Canva, you could use um notebook. There's so many things you can do now to just get that going. Um, you can put your lesson plan into AI and then ask it to generate those things for you, and then they're all accessible. So we talk a lot about, you know, access points for kids, um, you know, with with public speaking, are they better to record it in a quiet space and then show their presentation? Are they wanting to share it to the teacher? Like, is it necessary that they have to show their public speaking in front of a class full of people if they might be on the autistic spectrum and if that's an overwhelming thing? Like, what is the goal? I think that's another thing with universal design is knowing the goal and how that child's gonna reach the goal. So, how do they do it? How long will it take? Um, when I'm finished, do I know what's gonna happen next? And what's in it for me? You know, are we aligned with the child's own goals? Uh, I think Matt Capp um talks a lot about, you know, what's the curriculum actually asking us to teach and how many times do we have to teach it to mark success? Um, so I think it's all of those things that it needs to be in the model of planning. And if you can incorporate that into planning, finding tuning, discussing all the time with colleagues, getting your head around it. I think there is possibilities for that to really shift the ground if we have those sort of questions and systems in place.

Communication Barriers We Miss

SPEAKER_00 16:52

What I like about what you're saying is the things that will support all the students. They're not something fang-dangled that you have to go and kind of learn. It's not like a new thing, like it's not something that is convoluted. It's really simple things that bring a lot of clarity and predictability into the classroom, lots of chunking down, lots of visuals, the things that so one of the things that I always talk about is a task card, which is like super simple. And I always say that it's like a bit of classroom management magic because it does provide that clarity and the predictability to support neurodivergent students, but also students who are coming in with heightened nervous systems, who need a little bit of energetic shift, who, you know, have experienced chronic failures in the subject and they just need that extra bit of scaffolding and support. Like it really does those timers reinforce the expectations of like how long they have for the task, therefore, how much depth should they put in. Like everything kind of works together so beautifully to provide support for all of the needs that we have going on in our classroom.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Yeah. And I think I think that you know, there's so many tangible things you can just pick up like that. I think that um speech language communication um is such a complex area. And I think you have to have obviously years of experience to understand that. And by no sense of the means am I an expert in that area. I understand a lot of it because I've worked with so many different communication profiles, but it is one of the areas that I think that we need to get back to um when it comes to engaging our learners because you know, communication, receptive, expressive skills, they're they're the entry point, they're they're the way in. Um, and sometimes we don't always see those um signs that there's actually, you know, misunderstandings or breakdowns. I think in, you know, ASD and and and ADHD, we do know that kids um see through another lens and you know we can accommodate that based on what we know of them and they're maybe they've been diagnosed and we've got a psychometric assessment with recommendations and they have therapists come and collaborate with us in schools. But I think, you know, um needs like kids with developmental language disorder or um auditory processing disorder, I think they're areas now that we need to go further into, um, just from what I'm understanding as well, because we've got kids with coming through early years in schools that, you know, are having struggles with literacy and you know, might be going into an explicit intervention for literacy, but really the barrier um is something different. And how do we also develop systems to un you know to unpack, you know, and find the next step to guide families and guide teachers to support kids into targeting where their struggles lie. So I mean, I think that's a there's that's a multifaceted approach. You'd be looking at, you know, um the the well-being of the child model where you're talking to families about their strengths and their barriers and what works and what doesn't, and you might be looking at, you know, escalation planning for behavior and all those sorts of things. Um, but I also love the Ross Green model where we're actually uncovering where the problems lie and then unpicking them and you know, addressing them one by one. Um, you know, if a child is having um some challenges engaging in literacy in in year one, um, you know, is there something more going on? And how do we we get there? And I think that's why having specialists and therapists and all of these skills in schools is just vital now. It's it's it's vital and it's necessary. And teachers need that support and they need to be, you know, coached through different ways of thinking. Like, you know, we talk about UDL as well. And I don't know if you know Shelly Moore, but she's just such a brilliant advocate for you know neurodiversity, inclusion, and UDL. And um, she talks about you know the end of average, like we all have different profiles and we all have different strengths and different barriers, and we sit in the middle here and we sit in the middle there, and it's all different. And she says, you know, the minute we kind of shift the ground from that, you know, kids have to fit an average box, um, then we can also boost engagement by looking, you know, at the complex profiles of people and how I don't have all the answers, but you know, we're moving into this. Where does that fit in our planning? Where does that fit in our collaborations with families and children? And what skills and um supports do we need in schools to make all this collaboration happen?

SPEAKER_00 21:52

Because the the systems are still like the school system is still geared towards those averages. So, you know, Naplan, like yeah. So yeah, we are measuring, we're measuring students against that average.

When Systems Punish Neurodivergence

SPEAKER_01 22:07

Yes, and and that's right. And and you know, um Ross Green, he's hilarious, he always says things like, you know, standardized testing equals disaster, you know, um, for so many kids, you know, high stakes tests for kids that are just struggling to even get to school and have all these other barriers that hold them up before they even get into the classroom. Let's unravel some of that. And then how do we um a little personal anecdote um that I shared with some colleagues was um my son, I've I've come so far with him um working on you know what are the problems and and going through that really proactive approach. Um, we've changed schools, we've done so many things, but I've had so many robust conversations. conversations with educators about neurodiverse affirming practice and you know how it just makes the you know the hairs on my neck go on edge you know and this and over time I've got so much better because he's so good. But the other day he was in swimming lessons and I could see that it wasn't going well. And to get him to go to swimming has been a big thing but you know I've worked with him on on reasonable expectations and and um you know life skills and and and boundaries around what's what's necessary and what's an option and what's your goal and that sort of thing, that language. And he was struggling in this lesson the the coach was getting him to do some butterfly dolphin maneuver. And he just he couldn't get it and I could tell he was struggling and his and his frustration tolerance is low in those situations. And he threw his kickboard um just threw it a few meters and then the coach came up and said to him you don't want to be here why don't you just get out you look at me in the eye you know sort of all this approach don't look at mum to help you. And I just let it ride and and you know he he just took it on the chin in the past he would have been performing and crying and screaming and swearing and out of there. But it was that he had to fit a model he had to fit a program that that person was teaching. And he couldn't meet the expectation he couldn't meet the expectation so um you know I spoke to the the swim school and I said look you know he has an ADHD diagnosis and it's on the form and what is your organization doing to understand that and collaborate with families and you know set goals and expectations for that child based on what their priority is and the questions couldn't be answered. So it you know lots of systems aren't with with me on this and maybe you know you agree with where I'm at as well but um you know there's just a lot of work to be done and understanding to be um taken on board in this space for the better good of kids and so we can save kids falling out of systems and falling out of opportunities.

SPEAKER_00 25:06

Yeah I think it's just so important what you said about reasonable expectations and all of the things are like thank you for sharing that story about your son too because I talk a lot about like having expectations for every single student and how important that is but it needs to be realistic for every single particular student. And I think that's where teachers sometimes can get not confused but like worried about the work they're doing with their students who are neurodivergent. I think they worry a lot about getting it wrong like what am I expecting here? Like what is reasonable like what is fair what is equitable for these students if you were to sit across from a teacher who was really worried about getting it wrong with neurodivergent students and and not doing the work justice with these students what kind of shifts would you support them to make like what kind of things would you support them to do with these neurodivergent students that would make a huge difference in the way that they're able to support them, whether it be like language or pedagogy or the expectations for them?

SPEAKER_01 26:13

And I think it depends on the child and and what's going on for them. But it's a really interesting one because from talking to other um professionals in this space I've heard that the word reasonable is going to be phased out and it's just you know you know everything's reasonable which is interesting because we know that in school systems, you know, teachers can't do all the things and can't keep on top of you know every child's little need. Again another call for school systems that allow teams with teams around the child teams around the child teams around um classes of children teams around teachers teams of teachers with varied skill sets um knowledge and insight like I think that is super important. We all need to come together um and that needs to be systems based for it to be successful and um integrated into um a school for long-term success but it really depends on on the child I mean and it also depends on the family and where they are at like sometimes you know um Ross Green talks a lot about you know the data will show kids are struggling but the data shows that adults are struggling more so if we've got struggling kids behind those struggling kids we probably have some really struggling adults as well so it's how do we bring those systems in to support the families as well so you can collaborate on what's reasonable because if you're not doing that you're jumping all over the place trying to appease um children and appease parents and you know um you maybe appease your line manager or the curriculum leader or the the the head of school um so I think it's really case by case saying right where have we come from where where are we at where are we going? You know what has been successful what works um what doesn't work and just pulling in you know a a more guided um goal setting performer or plan into place um and having everyone agree to that um I think sometimes you know it reasoning conversations with students is the same with having reasoning conversations with parents and and teachers you know we need to reason with teachers about why things are a certain way because we have a shared vision and that shared vision is to do the best thing by children. So I think sometimes you have to pull it back to you know the philosophy base of you know your school ethos and it all the school school vision and ethos always comes back to the child and sometimes we get lost in what we don't have and what we what resources and and what's not available and there's just too many things I can't do all the things that we just need to step it back and go let's actually see what is working, what's not working, get rid of that. Let's stick to this plan. Does everyone agree to this expectation and goal is there another way of of doing that for that particular child that's not going to um have a great impact on the whole class or the daily teaching of a class um but as I said like you know it's you all need to come together on that and every case will be a little bit different depending on what's going on for that person that little person.

What Leaders Can Build Around Teachers

SPEAKER_00 29:48

If if there's a it just kind of it brings up this idea of like if there's a if there's any of the senior leaders are listening any anybody in leadership or you know um head of faculty how do you think they can best support their staff to support their neurodivergent students because so often teachers go into the classroom and you said it before like there's such just a large range of different needs. So getting down into those like minute details every single lesson it just feels so hard. How can leaders like support their teachers to to be able to meet all of these needs?

SPEAKER_01 30:27

Well I think I think this is really a space that's still taking shape and I I really wouldn't you know if there is a a school out there that's got it all sorted you know I'd love to them to reach out to you and I'd love to hear about it. Because I just don't think with this ever-evolving space we're in with um inclusion that you know we've got it completely nailed I mean there's so many restrictions as well you know you'd love all the all the bodies as well wouldn't you but that's not going to meet inclusive needs necessarily we want kids to be in classrooms learning with others is that what we want do you know or are there other pathways people are looking for and other ways of doing things but we just don't have the you know the the infrastructure in schools to do that or the funding or what have you um I think that leaders are probably um you know still developing systems and referral pathways and processes to manage that question you know to approach that question yeah um I think that you know I keep talking about Ross Green but I just did his training last week and I just think he's I'm very jealous by the way Verity I just think he's an absolute legend and he talks about um the high flyers right so he talks about um you know 90% of students will you know whether it's a struggle or not will pretty much go along and conform to what's going on in a classroom and get on with it, engage and you know have a good day and come out well right but then you have this group you know and you might align it to the MTSS approach around you know tier high tier two tier three children um that need another way and they're the kids you're really um you have to have a school team like a development group or you know coming around that teacher that family that child to find a way forward for that and it takes takes more than one person and I think teachers need that support. I don't I think that schools need to look at systems to wrap collaborative teams and collaborative processes around those top tier kids. And you know within that there's probably lots of different avenues and pathways you could go which best support that need to de-escalate and engage any complex situation that's um impacting a child. So you know you you could be you know having student student voice um systems where you're you know at the beginning of the year that teachers are really having that opportunity to understand each child and and what they're about and what their general you know process is around engagement in the classroom and who their people are and the way they best learn. You know you have your you do have your kids with diagnoses and you need to know what sensory needs they have and what breakpoints they might need or what visual supports they might need or scaffolding they might need for executive functions. I think that you know learning support teams do a pretty good job of plucking that out and supporting teachers with those things in classrooms. I think that needs to keep happening because I think there was one of your episodes was talking about you know there's so many kids with support plans that sort of meet that criteria now because so many kids are getting diagnosed and you know we are recognizing neurotypes and brains and trying to advocate and fight for those kids. So yes there's a lot of personalized support plans but if we're looking you know if we're expecting a teacher or a TA to read those you know however many plans they have and have all the expertise and understanding about what each point or each recommendation on that plan actually means in action I don't think that's realistic. And if they can't what are we missing? And I think it's those sort of systems like that where we need to head to um and I don't think there's one there's one there's not one prong of that.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

I think it's going to be a multi-pronged approach um and now there's sort of it's that sort of sounds like a pathway within a pathway referral doesn't it yeah yeah and what you said about like kids do well when they can I think teachers out there listening like teachers do well when they can as well like I think that we like we need to give ourselves a lot of grace because it's so complex and there's so many changes and yeah I think teachers are are trying so hard to meet all of the needs in their room and you know that these needs also can manifest in big behaviors which is why I wanted to talk to you quickly about like the link between um students who have you know autism, ADHD, any other neurodivergence and what's happening in their brains when they're coming into classroom with these really big behaviors that teachers are then trying to manage in the best way that they can that they also again want to do right by their neurodivergent student.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

So yeah how what's their brains when they're so like yeah so I talk a lot about this and I've done a lot of training um on this in schools and um you know one of the most important things for people and this is another you know what's necessary for some works for all is connection. And I don't know if you've um done any reading or watched any videos um from Dr. Bruce Perry who's the author of the um neurosequential model uh he talks a lot about the three R's so you know regulating we need to be able to regulate before we can relate to another and before we can we can't reason with anyone until we have the relationship. So you know first and foremost we're focusing on connection okay so if that's not there all those things are going to be more of a challenge for anyone anyone anyone that doesn't feel understood is not going to feel awesome walking into a space and I think we can you know reflect on that as humans that if we don't feel understood or connected in a social situation or in a networking situation and we walk into an environment where we're like oh no one gets me here um or something's happened in the past where something's been said and you you feel misunderstood and you're holding on to it, you're anxious. You're not going to feel awesome about that whatsoever. So this isn't just about kids this is humans. So that sort of um we talk a lot about you know teachers relating to kids um before they can reason with them but kids have to be regulated to do that. So if we're seeing kids coming in with shutdown responses or nervousness or you know um challenges getting on task first thing we're really going to be having conversations about what's their background how do they best regulate what works what doesn't what do I know who can I collaborate with to make sure that child's well regulated in my classroom that's key. No learning's going to happen if someone's dysregulated. So there's lots of ways that you can do that. As I've said the collaboration understanding if they have a diagnosis or an emerging need in that area but you can always go back to you know that iceberg analogy we're seeing a behavior that concerns us on on the surface but underneath where what we can't see is all sorts of unsolved problems that might be around you know executive functions um you know attachment I've struggled to say goodbye to mum this morning um basic needs haven't been met um so low self-worth is bubbling under the surface um social complications social skill you know um emerging social skill development like all of those sorts of things can be under the surface and could have happened before a child even walks through the door so there's so many analogies you can relate to you know their buckets filling up and then the more expectations they overflow or their batteries already you know depleted and then another expectation gets put on them and then they completely clap out. You know, there's all those analogies but I think that understanding behavior after that relational point understanding behavior as a stress response is key. So if a child's anxiety is up their behavior and their tolerance goes down their communication goes down. So that could be communicating um you know they might shut down or they might go into the you know flock freeze fawn fight response and then their sensory seeking goes up they might leave the classroom they might disengage they might want to move what kids want and what we need to understand about that is for them to have control, we need to be predictable people, we need to have predictable routines, we need to have predictable systems in classrooms because that equals safety and then all of the other things turn back around again. So I think that for me if I was talking to educators it's really understanding that every behavior is a message every behavior is a communication and the more that we're understanding about what's going on for that child the more we can be proactive in addressing their their unmet need.

SPEAKER_00 40:00

And I think yeah absolutely and when we're talking about so regulate is the first step isn't it and we can't do that if we ourselves aren't regulated as human beings. Right. But when we and the reason I so I talk a lot about like the needs but like the iceberg analogy or the backpack or all of those things. And the reason why it's so important to understand all of those things is because it you know how people say like I don't take it personally the behavior's not personal that's quite hard for teachers to do if we don't understand what's actually going on beneath that behavior. And the more that we dig into the underneath the iceberg stuff as educators the more we can depersonalize it and the more we can show up regulated and the better chance we have of being able to support that student because if we're looking at a student's behavior we don't have any context we don't know what's going on underneath we don't have any or very limited understanding about behavior my gosh it makes it so much harder for us to regulate doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 40:57

Yeah it does and and I want to just tap back into what you're saying before about you know the regulation of teachers I completely get it it's a lot you know there's not just these you know these needs we're addressing and all these new ways of seeing and doing that we've got to you know keep in mind's eye um you know and just the shift of society and you know kids having you know not being um as bored as maybe we were as kids and then therefore like you know having accessibility to technology a lot so they're not used to having to find ways of doing things and they're wanting to be constantly entertained so their learning disposition might be well yeah the learning's boring it's not giving me enough stimulation um you know and that's not just a neurodivergent thing like that's just kids right you know kids are being so easily entertained and you know we're as adults you know we're all guilty of allowing that we are because we've all in this days and you know life and times of we're all so busy ourselves with our own jobs and then we've got families and complexities and financial demands and it's just so much going on isn't there um and so I completely get that for teachers and I just had a teacher um chat to me earlier saying oh Verdi I really get what you're saying about you know approaching a child with that sort of um curiosity and saying you know I see that you know you might be struggling with XYZ what's going on for you um and the teacher was saying I can't do that all through my lesson with every child that's not participating or not you know um following the lesson um and I said look I think it's that's not the point of necessarily of that um that message is not say you need to stop a child every time that they're not engaging class and and have a restorative conversation with them in the middle of the lesson. I think it's you know we do have to just push through we do have to push through and do our best as educators to get through lessons. But I think it's that reflection of coming back and having those people we come back to and you know this happened in that and and again I think it's your high flyers that it happens the most not to say that tapping into kids that aren't your high flyers and having those conversations when the time's right isn't extremely helpful because that's another what what what's necessary for some works for all kids want to be heard all kids want to be understood. But it's not about stopping a child you know necessarily all throughout a lesson and finding out in that moment what's going on but it's having that mindset of coming back to it and circling back to it and you know I can see there's a problem how am I going to work with this child and it could be a a two minute conversation um you know I had a conversation with a child the other day about writing and writing was tricky and he and you know I got down to it and he said you know it's moving too fast and I work better you know with a teacher aide at you know a help table like a you know a smaller quieter desk and we solved that you know we did that the next day I checked in all sweet we're good. So it doesn't need to be a lot it just needs to be a shift of thinking around how to approach what might be going on in front of us. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 44:10

Yeah absolutely and it it just brings it back to what you said before about it being like connections very human. This whole thing is very human and it's just us as human beings trying to work with a bunch of other human beings in our room and how can we do that in a way that honors, respects the individual that we have in the room in the best way that we can um I love that idea of circling back as well like you can't always address the behaviors in the moment as they're happening.

Bias, Demand Avoidance, Escalation Plans

SPEAKER_01 44:37

All we can do is respond in the best way, regulate in the best way and then go back and try to resolve or put things in place after in the best way we can as well yeah absolutely and I also think that um when it yeah when it comes to stepping in in that way um Um you can present like you know, I can do lots of presentations on so many things we've just discussed, and then you know, someone will say at the end, like it's quite simple, Verity. It just just be kind, right? Just be kind. You know, all the educators I work with are kind, they're really kind. We're all, you know, we're in education because we have compassion. What gets in our way, you know, is just the natural, you know, human anxieties and pressures that are upon us, just like the kids. But what's interesting is is that um, you know, our backgrounds, um our traumas, um, our idealisms, our unconscious biases, um the way that our childhood, our childhoods, all of that is coming into the school, into the classrooms. We carry it. We do carry it. And really it's hard for people to look at themselves and how there might be they might be a trigger to a behavior, but sometimes we are. And you know, facing ourselves in any relationship, whether it's with a child in the classroom, whether it's with a colleague, whether it's with our spouse, whether it's with our children, wow, that's an important skill, but wow, it's hard.

SPEAKER_00 46:31

That self-reflection, it is really like that's why I talk about quite a lot on the podcast and in trainings and all that kind of stuff. It's just I am a kind person. I got into education because I wanted to be the teacher who I didn't have when I was at school. And guess what? I still slipped into being punitive and yelling and shaming because I didn't know what to do in the moment and I was reacting, I was frantic, I was incredibly anxious, I felt out of control, and that was my nervous system, like speaking. So we can be incredibly kind but still show up in a way that isn't helpful. Um, and that doesn't reflect on us as a person. It just means that we need to do some work around, you know, in that moment.

SPEAKER_01 47:15

And it is doable. Like, you know, you've got if you've got um people, inclusive inclusion specialists and um therapists and well-being staff, like if you've got really strong staff that come from all these different worlds and angles, and you're all teaming together and mentoring each other and unpicking problems together, you can get there. Like I've seen great success um, you know, working with teachers with looking at behavior as a message and looking at escalation and what works well and what doesn't, and what are we gonna do, and how are we gonna approach this child and what language are we gonna use? And you know, it really goes into demand avoidance. Like we've got so many demand avoidance cases, and I'm you can't see it because you can't, I don't know if you can see my camera, but I've got inverted comments around demand avoidance and PDA and all these what all these terminologies that are getting thrown out. And yes, clinically, some of those terms do fit with certain kids, but they're not terms to be thrown around because at the end of the day, um, we're jumping to those without looking at baseline anxieties and simmering anxieties and stresses for kids and addressing those at the baseline. We're seeing this. What are we going to do? What works to bring them back down? And I've had teachers say to me, I had a teacher say to me recently, she said, Oh, Bertie, when you came along with that escalation plan and that escalation model, um, I just was thinking, Oh, that won't work. And then she said, and then you sat down and you did it with me, and I put it in place and it was magical. And then I said, Yes. And then now she's off doing an escalation plan for a child without me. And she's like, I don't need you anymore. I can see this works. And then she said to me, Oh, I have a child that, you know, when she's um, when her um, you know, she's flipping a lid or the staircase in her brainhouse is breaking, um, you know, she drops to the floor and she screams and wow, she can come out with some colorful language and some really loud vocalizations. But you know what I do? I just stay calm and I just move the other kids along and find a really jolly way to do that. And I just sit with it and I wait for the calm and I tell her I can see her, and I can I let her know that I'm there to help, and we find a way, and sometimes it's just quite a simple thing. And last week it was she just needed her toy from home for a particular lesson of a particular day of the week, and now she's right as rain. And I was just I was like, wow, that was you know, that's the magic of working in that way, and you tweak, you know, I had to tweak the way I worked with that staff member differently to a way I worked with another, but you know, the power of um that collaboration in this inclusive space is it can really be magical, yeah.

Final Mindset Shift And Closing Invite

SPEAKER_00 50:08

Yeah, that's beautiful. And the and coming back to the power of like those mindset shifts and seeing things in a different way and seeing these students in a different way, Verity. You have just brought so many incredible insights. I'm so grateful for all of your knowledge and expertise. But if there's a teacher listening, let's just like do one tangible like kind of takeaway. Because I want, if there's one teacher listening who's really struggling, they are trying so hard to have a beautiful, inclusive classroom, but they're fearful that they're getting it wrong. What would you want them to take away from this and really hold on to as they go into the classroom next?

SPEAKER_01 50:44

Um, I think that um never assume the child is the problem. I think we've we've really got to think about that. Um, every behavior is a message. Um regulation comes before relationships and reasoning. We've got to work from the bottom up with especially our high flyers and not from the top down. Um, approach what you see with curiosity, curiosity and shift from um a behavior to a problem-solving mindset.

SPEAKER_00 51:17

I love that. That's that's so helpful. That's so it's that mindset shift, you know, and it's something that we can really hold on to going into the classroom because the behavior in front of us, if we're not seeing that differently, we can never approach it differently, really, if we're doing the blaming and the shaming or like spiraling ourselves and feeling like, you know, we're not capable, or like it just doesn't help anybody. So that is just such a beautiful takeaway for any educator listening. And Verity, I really hope to meet you in person at EduTech. And yes, yes. And if anyone's listening who is coming along to EduTech, then make sure you come and pop in and say hello to myself and Verity and let us know you listen to this episode. But thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for your time and have a lovely day.

SPEAKER_01 52:06

Thank you, Claire.