#165: The "brain builder" mindset shift every teacher needs. Jessica Sinarski on dysregulation, teacher burnout, and the neuroscience behind behaviour

Every teacher has been there. The class that makes you want to crawl under your desk. The student who seems hell-bent on dismantling every lesson you've planned. And the horrible, shameful moment when you realise you've snapped, yelled, or just completely lost the plot… and it didn't help at all.

Here's the thing: it's not because you're a bad teacher. It's because you're a human with a brain, and that brain is doing exactly what it's designed to do under stress.

This week, I'm joined by the incredible Jessica Sinarski, award-winning author, innovative educator, and founder of Brave Brains, who has spent more than 20 years translating complex neuroscience into practical, I can actually do this strategies for educators and child welfare organisations around the world. Jess is one of those rare humans who can take the most brain-melting research and make it feel completely accessible. And honestly? This conversation gave me goosebumps more than once.

We get into why chaotic classrooms aren't a discipline problem (and what they actually are), the surprising sensory input that could completely change your most challenging class, and the mindset shift that will help you stop taking student behaviour personally, even when it feels very personal.

This one is a must-listen, friends.

What you'll learn in this episode:

• Why YOUR brain goes on autopilot when students kick off, and why that's completely normal (not a character flaw)
• What's actually going on neurologically in a class that feels constantly dysregulated and chaotic
• The "pack leader" concept and why calm authority is your most powerful classroom tool
• How to shift your internal narrative from "this kid is out to get me" to something that actually helps you respond well
• The anchor phrases that will help you stay regulated when students push every button you have
• What proprioception is, why it's the hidden classroom management tool you didn't know you needed, and how to use it today
• A super simple movement break that works even with secondary students (yes, really)
• Why connection between students, not just between you and your students, changes classroom behaviour
• The "brain builder" mindset shift that will transform how you see your most challenging students

Where to find more from Jess:

• Free Teacher's Guide to Proprioception
• Light Up the Learning Brain (also available at all major online retailers)
• Behavior Rewired 

RESOURCES AND MORE SUPPORT:

• Shop all resources
• Join The Behaviour Club
• My book! It’s Never Just About the Behaviour: A holistic approach to classroom behaviour management 
• The Low-Level Behaviour Bootcamp
• Free guide: 'Chats that Create Change'

Connect with me:

• Follow on Instagram @the.unteachables
• Check out my website

Transcript

Jessica’s Path Into Brain Science

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Oh, hi there, teachers. Welcome to the Unteachables Podcast. I'm your host, Claire English, and I am just a fellow teacher, a toddler mama, and a big old behaviour nerd on a mission to demystify and simplify that little thing called classroom management. The way we've all been taught to manage behaviour and classroom manage has left us playing crowd control, which is not something I subscribe to because we're not bouncers, we're teachers. So listen in as I walk you through the game-changing strategies, and I mean the things that we can actually do and action in our classroom that'll allow you to lean into your beautiful values as a compassionate educator and feel empowered to run your room with a little more calm, and dare I say it, a lot less chaos. I will see you in the episode. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Unteachables Podcast. I'm so excited today because I have Jessica Sonarski on to speak to you. She is an award-winning author, an innovative educator, and I mean she is like leading the charge when it comes to the neuroscience behind behavior. She spent more than 20 years proving that no behavior is too big to handle if you have the right support, which aligns so beautifully with the mission and the work that we do here at the Unteachables. As the founder of Brave Brains, she knows that behind every challenging moment is a child and caring adult searching for the right tools to thrive. And that gives me goosebumps because it just takes that shame away from the moment when we're really struggling with those big behaviors. Through her diverse books and resources and the behavior-wired train the trainer model, she translates complex neuroscience into I can do this action steps for school leaders and child welfare organizations around the world. Jess, I'm so sorry, I'm getting over a cold. You literally understand. Oh my gosh. Uh I am so excited for this conversation because like translating really complex big things into tangible bite-sized pieces that busy teachers can take away with. Like that is just what we do here. So thank you so much for joining me here, Jessica. I'm so excited to have you on the Unteachables podcast.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

I am thrilled to be here. I yeah, I'm ready to dive in to give your listeners something wonderful today. Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

So let's start off with talking a little bit about you because you're such a strong voice in the world of neuroscience fact strategies for educators. But those who are newer to your work, can you give us a little bit of a rundown of what led you here and what your work kind of looks like today?

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Yeah, I'm not sure I ever thought I would end up working in the field of education. I uh my background's in mental health and specifically working in the aftermath of pretty intense trauma, abuse, neglect, foster care, um, kinship care kinds of situations. And um, what started to happen is I think like many of us out here in the world trying to do things, when I graduated from grad school, I did not know what I needed to know to be effective. And so I really started looking for, you know, what the heck is gonna make an impact with these intense behavioral things that I'm seeing. And it was stumbling into neuroscience and especially attachment and trauma and the brain and how all of these pieces fit together and how are how behavior comes from the brain and all of that that led to some really profound breakthroughs in the work that I was doing, shifts in how I practiced. And I, but then what would happen is I'd be working with a family, and so you know, kids are making progress, parents are making progress, and then they'd like work to get the second grade teacher to kind of understand what was going on with the brain behavior connection, and then have to do it again in third grade, and then try to get the school counselor on board or the disciplinarian or whatever, not to excuse behavior, but to understand the bigger picture of what was going on. And so there was clearly a gap in what not just what mental health professionals were getting, but what, but especially in what educators were getting in a user-friendly way. Like, how do we take all this amazing neuroscience out there and put it into a tangible form that um yeah, that that makes things click quickly because there's so much on your plate. And so my I I was about to write a book actually for parents and realized that maybe the story that needed to be told is one that is simpler and visual. And so Riley the Brave was the first book that I wrote. It's the little cub with big feelings, and it just sort of took off. And I found a, yeah, I sort of stumbled into a career I never imagined I would be doing. So I'm no longer practicing therapy. I'm teaching and um resourcing and keynoting and writing like crazy and just doing my best to try to support all the educators out there doing amazing work.

Why Teacher Brains Go Automatic

SPEAKER_02 6:19

Like it sounds like you are the therapist version of what I was doing, like when I was when I was in my early career, because you come into whatever profession that you want to go into and you're like, what is going on here? I actually started um as a youth homelessness like caseworker before I was a teacher. And then I'm like, actually, where I need to be supporting these kids is in the classroom. So it sounds like we've got a similar experience of going in and going, wow, like there's some stuff here that we need to, you know, kind of work with. Yes, yes, for sure. You do speak about, you've got this beautiful knack about speaking about the brain in a way that is so accessible to people who have no idea about neuroscience, which is great for me because you know, I didn't do any like degree in neuroscience, like I don't have that grounding, but I do understand quite a lot of it now because of people like you in the space who are really leading the charge in making that accessible, but also like really relevant to what we are actually dealing with in the classroom. Like, why do we have to care about, you know, neuroscience? Why do we have to care about dysregulation? So, if teachers out there listening could understand just one thing about how the brain responds to stress or dysregulation, what would you want that to be that's going to help them?

SPEAKER_01 7:39

I think the thing I have found most helpful is we hear a lot about like bring your calm to their chaos or a a dysregulated adult can't regulate a dysregulated child. And those those can be very true statements. But I feel like part of what I love about your work and part of what I am trying to communicate and and help everyone hold, including admin, is that it is normal that when you are faced with brains that are popping off in all kinds of ways, and the behavior that comes from that, your brain is impacted, which impacts your stress level and your the automaticity of the words coming out of your mouth. And so you're it's it's normal that you fall into some ruts where, yeah, you want to consequence or um or you know, punish behavior if that's what you're used to, or especially if that's what you were taught. Well, we just need a point system or we just need this reward thing or we just need whatever. And and so a little bit of being able to take a step back and say, like, oh, right, it's normal that my brain wants to go to the automatic. And when the automatic is not working for my students, when I'm ending up in tears at the end of the day, or um, these kids are failing. And and that's I I've heard you talk about this, that that's never what I wanted. I didn't get it. I got into this for the kids who slipped through the cracks, and now I'm yelling at them. Like, well, that's a brain thing. Like it makes sense that your brain is doing that. And so let's let's turn the tables a little bit so that we're supporting all brains involved, not just caring about the students, which is important too.

SPEAKER_02 9:31

Yeah, like it's not like there's two nervous systems there. And yes, you're just you're so right. When we because as a teacher, you go into the classroom and your job is to teach, and you've got so much to go through, you've got so much to get through, and you need to be like kind of you need to have this sense of control of the environment. Yeah. And if you lose control, control is very frightening in terms of like our neurobiology. Like, if we're out of control, we are going to try very hard to get back in control. And that's where we do whatever we can to get back in control. And that is where like punishing and shaming and all that punitive stuff can come out. And it's not because we're in inherently like bad people, or we val we don't even like we don't even need to embody those values of like, yeah, we need to teach them a lesson. Like it just it just comes out when we are stressed and and we're feeling unsafe.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

Yeah. And I think uh one of the things that I've seen be really powerful is when educators feel a sense of safety in their in their work environment or with their community of, you know, of like if they have a safe place to be like, listen, the sound of crinkling water bottles makes me want to punch somebody. Like I will throat punch you. I I'm not proud of it, but this is this is my reality. Or I was just talking to a um secondary teacher who there was something about a kid putting their hand on the doorknob without permission that just sent him right, like full flipped lid, downstairs brain, like and and recognizing, oh, there's a control thing or a safety thing involved in that. But my sort of huge reaction to that is not super helpful in this moment. And so if we can create communities where it's safe to say, like, listen, this is really hard for me. What do you do in that situation? How can I, you know, how can I work on this? That like that's that's the ball game.

SPEAKER_02 11:29

Yeah. And it's so important to know like people are different. Like one person's response might go, well, why did you respond in that way? That was really unhelpful. Actually, you have no idea what is living in their hippocampus that's like triggering those, like those stress responses more intensely than somebody else who hasn't had those experiences. So we're all just kind of getting through this messy human thing together and teaching by nature is so challenging and can be very dysregulating and just you actually reminded me of last night with my with my daughter. So she was messing, messing around at bedtime and I couldn't get her to sleep. And she was like thrashing her body around, and then she hit her head on the frame of the bed. And my initial response without even thinking was to yell. And I'm like, why did I do that? It's because I was so you know, I took a step back. I'm like, oh my god, why did I say, well, stop making messing around then? You know, like why did I why did I say that to her? Why did in that moment where she was crying and she'd hurt herself go to that place? And it's again because that triggered some kind of like fear of her not being safe or Yes.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Yes. I think so. I'm gonna like nerd out a little bit with you because I know you'll appreciate it and hopefully others will too. But we so when I was writing um uh an activity book around feelings, I realized how tricky it is to actually define feeling. Like people really wrestle with how to define what a feeling is, what an emotion is. And the best that that I could deduce is it's sensation. So you heard her scream, you know, like there, there were, you saw her hurt herself, like those kinds of things. There's sensation, there's um thoughts, but then there's memories. Like those three things together are what give you your emotional state. And I think it's that memory piece that if we're not careful, can get away from us. And so we have to do our own work. Like it's not fun, it's not fair, but that's that's sort of adulting. Like you have to figure out what those triggers are, or you'll end up, you know, yelling at somebody who just hurt themselves.

SPEAKER_02 13:40

Yeah. No, I I thank you so much for it's really validating to hear that as well because I know that we all have work that we need to be doing. Of course. And rather than shaming how we respond to behaviors in the classroom or, you know, our children or our partner when they're my husband actually um edits this podcast. So when you were saying the thing about the doorknob, like and and that really big response, I saw this reel on Instagram, and it was this wife listening to her husband talking while he was eating cereal, and he was like slurping and like it was really loud, and then there's like this other scene, and it's her like dragging, like it's her pretty much digging his grave, like this really like big, big response. And again, like those triggers, like it's just like our brains, like we need to be so aware of what's happening inside of us.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Yes, yes, and it matters, like you said, it matters amongst all the relationships. So, though we realized in in my marriage that my husband would get mad at me when he couldn't meet a like a perceived need of mine. Like he he so like he loves me so much and wants to be helpful. And so if there was something that came up that he felt like I needed something from him that he couldn't provide, then he's like mad at me about it, which is obviously not helpful. And we've joked about it and all of those things, but like understanding those nuances help I so much of our work becomes dialing down the temperature, like it it feels intense for understandable reasons, and we can be the boss of our brains.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

Like, you know, yeah, I love that. And I think that a lot of people listening on so many levels will understand that about themselves because that this work is very deeply human. Let's go back into the classroom.

When A Class Feels Chaotic

unknown 15:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:32

When teachers describe a class as like constantly dysregulated, as super chaotic, what do you think is actually going on with that class? Do you think there's links between a class that's seemingly really chaotic and dysregulated? What kind of things, like insights can neuroscience kind of give us around those particular kinds of classes?

SPEAKER_01 15:59

My mind is going a million different directions, but one of the things I'm thinking about is how contagious our brain states are. So, how much what we're feeling and experiencing sort of filters into the rest of the group. And so uh I think this is part of why you might have like you're the same teacher, but in one classroom, you know, things are going smoothly and um and it seems like there's some cohesion and all of these other things. And then in another classroom, it's a hot mess. I also think back to so there might be a variety of stressed nervous systems in that space, and or there are goodness of fit issues, or the the challenge amongst like not challenge enough, challenge too much, you know, for the support that they have. Like all of those can become factors too. But I'm thinking particularly of a a teacher, a high school Spanish teacher. And she had one class that was just running smoothly and it was, you know, it she loved that part of her day. And then she had another class that she was ending up with a migraine, you know, at least once a week and could not seem to rein them in or get them to care about what they were working on. A lot of them were there because they had to be there or it was like they're about to get kicked off a sports team or what, you know, whatever these other factors are. And there was not a lot of connection in the group. There were a couple of people really trying to learn. And um, she took a beat with that class and decided to do to like one afternoon to circle up and be like, okay, we are gonna pass the talking stick, like we are gonna do some restorative practices. And and some of some people were able to share that she didn't think we're going to share. And part of what came out is just this massive sense of disconnection in this group. Well, we're social creatures. Like, not only is teaching really human, but teaching is so social. And so when there is, when when that's not going well, you're gonna feel it in behavior. I was talking to another administrator who um in the United States, there's a whole lot going on right now in um certain immigrant communities. And a so in the English language learning um program, there a lot of the students are really not allowed to be anywhere but home or school at the moment because there's so um much harassment and stress and things going on and unsafety. So the students actually spoke up and said, we need some connection time at school. And admin listened and they figured out how to pull five minutes out of all the class periods in one day and purposely have some intentional connection time. And that not only does it change behavior and the sense of safety and all of those things that ramp up behaviors or ramp down behaviors, but the connection that they feel settles the brain and the brain controls behavior. Like it's you know, it sounds wildly simplistic, but that's that's how it works.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's so nice that they were able to do that and put that in place, right? Because a lot of the time, I mean, there's a balance, isn't it? Because it's like maybe they just need more routine, more structure. Like, you know, we can kind of go one or the other end, can't we? But sometimes the power of just pausing and saying, actually, there's like some kind of disharmony here, or there's like a need that's not being met, and that needs a connection, or that need is safety, or that need, you know, and really recognizing that and putting that intentional time in, which is why I love like five-minute kind of brain breaky things for connection, like and dripping that into like the everyday. What you reminded me of as well was um when I was in London, I worked at a really challenging school for students that had social, emotional, and mental health needs. I felt pregnant when I was at that school before I was pregnant, I was able to manage things really, really well. The difference in the class when I got pregnant, and I had to really take a step back and go, why is it now that this class feels really unsettled, dysregulated, like the behaviors have ramped up? And it was because I was fearful in that class. Like I felt really anxious, I was responding really like in a really big way to any behaviors because I was protective of my body. Um, and that that school was very volatile, and there was a lot of violence, and um yeah, really, it just really reminded me of how much our own like nervous system can like kind of change the climate of the room.

Calm Authority For Teen Brains

SPEAKER_01 21:02

Agreed. And I'm glad you brought up the predictability and and structure piece. Um, this is gonna sound a little out there perhaps, but there's uh so one of my boys is really into he he loves animals, and we watch a fair bit of dog whisperer, like Caesar Milan. Um and he talks about being a good pack leader. And I think about that in the classroom. Like there is something about your, and I think you speak about this too in your book. You talk about presence, right? So I think about that calm authority that is not neither permissive nor overly rigid. Um, and that is like kids need that. And so it makes sense that as your body is trying to take care of this new human that's growing, and um, and there are we're so our brains are so perceptive to threat. And so there is the possibility of harm, and that's something that that we feel and impacts our ability to show up with the calm pack leader presence that we need in the classroom.

SPEAKER_02 22:15

Yeah, absolutely. Uh yeah, like it's the balance of like the approachable and the credible, and then like some people talk about this. That's like how um Michael Grinder speaks about it in Envoy, and then other people speak about it like the warm demander. Yeah, there's different ways that we can speak about that teacher presence. But yeah, it's like it's like being that that tree in the storm. That's how I kind of see it, and like being able to like put our roots down and we're flexible, but we're stable in that space.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

And I think it's even I mean, it's critical at all grades, but I think in secondary, it's even more important because you have humans that are getting bigger, you know, your little people are not quite so little. And they're in such a volatile uh life stage, right? So in so many ways, the teenage years, the the puberty and all of those things are this like reliving of this tremendous growth that happens from zero to three. Well, that happens again in this these teenage years. And and so they need that steady anchor who's not going to be knocked off course by them being lippy or whatever, because they're gonna be lippy sometimes, because that's developmentally appropriate. And you have to have some ways that you can come, that you can um not be undone by it and not accept it as okay, right? That that's a that's a that's a really hard thing to pinpoint. And um, but I think it's so important for educators to not burn out.

Shifting The Story You Tell Yourself

SPEAKER_02 23:48

Yeah. And I think that that kind of thing comes with a lot of experience as well. But if you're if you're listening to this and you are a newer teacher or you haven't, even if you're a teacher who's been in the profession for 20 years and you haven't really been exposed to these ideas before, it does take like practice. Like that is it's really something that we have to hone and and it is a craft, like it's an art form almost to be able to go into a classroom and really intentionally use our body language and you know, our tone and the way we're we're moving, and all of those things can kind of add up to that presence that we bring into the classroom. That actually leaves me on really nicely. You're speaking about teenagers and how they go through these immense shifts, like their brains are literally we rewiring. Um, I call my my little girl a three-ger because she, like, yeah, you know, it really is just this intensity. And if that happens again in teenage years where there's all these expectations placed on them, and you know, they're expected to act like these big kids and like you know a baby anymore, and you know, like it's just so telling about these behaviors. But how can teachers kind of shift their internal narrative from like this student's just trying to be difficult, this student's apathetic, this student's just trying to be disruptive, they're trying to ruin the lesson, or you know, all of those kind of again, the things that we tell ourselves and we put out there because we ourselves are really stressed and like we feel unsafe, we feel like we need to get back into control in control. How can we kind of shift that narrative to this student's brain is dysregulated, unsafe, asking for support? How do we shift that?

SPEAKER_01 25:25

I don't have an easy answer. Like, if there's no like magic switch, it does have a lot to do with how how supported and regulated we're feeling, right? Um, and so I think even doing things like listening to this podcast and seeking other other professionals who you feel like handle these things well, that's that's really healthy. That's that's a that's a good thing. One of the things that I would say, well, there's a couple things that come to mind, but one for sure is is remembering that you're on the same team. So it won't always feel like it. But your goal at the end of the day is that they, you know, learn some skills in your class that help them be successful going forward. Like that's that's what you're going for. Some most of those are academic skills, some of those are probably some of the other side skills that they need to have. And so if that's feeling off-kilter, then I think one of the first reminders I have to do for myself is um, we're in this together. And so even when they're coming at me and and their behavior is sending me danger signals like you're failing, you're failing your other students because you're spending so much time with this kid or what, you know, whatever the narrative is, to come back to like we're on the same team. We have like this kid might not know that his goal or her goal is to learn some skills to be successful down the line. And there are probably a lot of reasons that that's the case. And if I can come back to, we're on the same team, we're on the same team, then that can spark my brain to look for moments of connection, to stay curious about like, okay, this really does seem to be in that developmental, like he's just being kind of a turd because he's 13 and just in that, in that phase. And that doesn't mean he's out to get me and it's personal. It doesn't mean, you know, he's destined for failure. It doesn't mean he needs me to just like ratchet up the consequences. It means, ooh, I gotta take a breath and and make sure I'm staying in my upstairs brain, going into this class period and continue to brainstorm with um caregivers if they're if if you have some connection there, um, with other teachers and and to whatever extent possible to be on the same team with that kid.

SPEAKER_02 27:53

I think an anchor, like we're on the same team, is so powerful just to have, and it's gonna be different for every educator. A phrase, and I tell myself, so the one that I use is um the only person I can control is myself. Um and you can have a whole variety of anchors, even this blue, it's like perpetual, it won't go away. Um yeah, I I tell myself the only person I can control is myself. Um things like there, like something's going on for them, like just whatever. I think you said a really good one before. What would you say? You said like this is developmentally appropriate. So, like even saying something like that could help us just to ground in the moment and remember that like our reactions will be, you know, like overreacting to it rather than responding to what's gonna be another one that I keep in mind is like I'm a brain builder.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

Like, like, how are we helping them build that skill? So I think about this my my boys are now 17, 15, and 12. And so we are in the throes of all of these developmental changes. And there are times when I especially last year, when my 14-year-old was being very 14. And I would have to remind myself, like, he needs my help building this skill. He doesn't need me to be mad at him because he's 14. Like that's that's not gonna get us anywhere. And so when he would have the, I mean, he's a delightful kid in so many ways, but he'd have the retort or the the, you know, automatic no or the sass or the whatever it was, that I'd be like, um, did you mean mom? Can I please? Blah, blah, blah. Or like, like purposely choosing to not take it personally. I think that's another good anchor, is it's not personal. It's not personal. They're they didn't wake up wanting to ruin your day. They just didn't.

SPEAKER_02 29:49

I love the brain builders one. I'm gonna use that. Good. We are brain builders because we are the adults. And we do have like, you know, we we've got the mature nervous systems. We have hopefully learnt along the way to regulate. Like, hopefully. But they're still learning all of that and their brains are still developing. So, as the adult in the room, I think that idea of we are brain builders, like I think some at least one person listening right now will take that and use it. And I'm definitely going to use it with my parenting because it is such a powerful shift. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And three boys, all teenagers. Oh my gosh, are you okay?

SPEAKER_01 30:34

There, so I feel like this for both in parenting and I think in in education, there are things that are delightful about every stage and things that are like poke my eyeballs out, challenging about every stage. And and so I try to hold both, right? That's all we can do. It's like, okay, we will survive this poke my eyeballs out piece. And I'm gonna choose to enjoy the things that are great about these witty, you know, tweens and and teens and those kinds of things. Like there's a lot of things.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

I that reminds me actually when I talk about like doing brain breaks and stuff, the brain breaks or like the little like kind of community builders, I say are best for even the educator because sometimes when we're in these really challenging classes where students are like a bit more dysregulated, they've got you know challenging upbringings, they've got contexts that are lending themselves to manifesting those big behaviors, we can become quite stuck and feel quite joyless going in and feel really resentful. I think just finding moments of like creating intentional moments of joy with these students can change so much.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

It's incredibly powerful. I've seen it, I think. So I know educators have tired are tired of hearing like build a relationship, you know, focus on connection, whatever. Understandably, because you also have a curriculum to get through and like 14 other demands on your plate every second of every day. And so I think one of the powers of those little brain breaks or intentional, like community-building times in your classroom is that it takes the pressure off of just you being the one to build the relationship. Like I actually want them to build relationships with each other. Like my work tends to be really um foundational in the in early childhood and in the elementary years, but in in the secondary years, my stuff is really more for the kids who have had some difficult life experiences or who are neurodivergent or have some disabilities or things like that where they they're still struggling to build some of those foundational attachment systems and stress management and self-regulation systems. But hopefully a lot of your 13 and 14 and 15 and 18-year-olds have some of that on board. And so it it becomes, you know, going back to those class, the classrooms that are really dysregulated, when we can get them connecting with each other, some of the brains that are more stable actually like there's some contagion in the other direction too, where their upstairs brain, their their um more mature brain is able to share some of that power with others who are maybe struggling a little bit more.

Proprioception And Movement That Works

SPEAKER_02 33:32

Yeah, absolutely. Like they can, it it's it goes both ways, doesn't it? And just like you said at the beginning, like, oh, don't join their chaos, like bring them the calm. The opposite can happen so easily. Our students are constantly dragging us into chaos. Uh, and I've had classes that have helped me come back into my regulation because I've had a really tough lesson lesson before. They've come in, they've been super chill, and I'm like, oh, this is nice. Like it can happen both ways. Yes, absolutely. Um speaking of these little pockets of kind of like, you know, finding joy and things that surprise us about being in the classroom and parenting and all that kind of stuff. What is one surprising thing that you have seen make a positive difference in the classroom?

SPEAKER_01 34:19

So again, I could I could say quite a handful of them. We've already talked a little bit about play and playfulness and that kind of thing. But I will say there is one of our hidden senses called proprioception. And getting a little more probe into kids' lives tends to have a big impact on the classroom setting. So probe is when we're talking about like proprioceptive input. Uh, so we have, we're gonna nerd out again for a second here, like taste buds on your tongue, those send, they they take in the chemicals from your food and send messages to your brain, like yum or you know, yuck or ye, that might be rotten or whatever it is, right? So those chemical messengers, chemical and electrical messengers hit your brain. The same thing is happening from your muscles and joints and um like deep in your skin all the time. And so when we're talking about proprioceptive input, we're talking about um movement and weight and impact. So things like running, jumping, crashing, banging, pushing, pulling, squeezing, like a hug among like there's a relational connection to it, but there's also a probe element to it because you're getting a squeeze. And this hidden sense does not get nearly enough work in the modern world. So because we are so much more sedentary or screen, like screens are in front of us. Um and so one of the things that I have seen be really powerful in classrooms is when teachers sort of get this little understand that that movement and not just movement for the sake of movement, but getting your big muscles involved, getting some more intense physical activity in that as they start to incorporate that. Um, again, with with a little bit of co-regulating back to calm. So I think one of the reasons teachers don't do this is if I have them jump 20 times, then they're gonna be a hot mess and I can't get them back down. Okay, so then we jump slower and then we we stretch our arms up together and we pull our hands back down by our side or whatever, like in the younger grades. Getting more movement in, more intense physical activity, putting up a punching bag in the counselor's office in your middle school, these things can give kids, so it it sort of serves two purposes. One, it gives kids the sensory input they need to just survive the day. The other is for those who are carrying some extra emotion or maybe whose brains are wired in a way, like I think of ADHD often needing a lot more movement and and probe. Um, it gives an outlet for that rather than so that you get ahead of the behavior rather than punishing and consequencing behavior that's happening if you don't do that. So I have a resource that I will happily share and drop in the um in the notes for you a teacher's guide to proprioception. And it is a surprising little way to bring a little more calm to your world.

SPEAKER_02 37:31

Oh, that's awesome. Thank you so much for sharing that. I'm sure that everyone's gonna be heading to the I think I am as well. It'll be great for your daughter. Um speak so just say um if there's like one way that teachers could take this into the classroom like immediately, what's like one good movement break that they could use?

SPEAKER_01 37:55

So it's so hard because I know like we're talking, so let's let's take secondary because I think that that tends to be more your jam. Um in the secondary space, I would say any sometimes kids are into physical activity anyway. And so you might even just have a grab bag or or pull a list of um simple activities like jumping jacks or squats or something like that. And they can take turns picking one and you see how many you can do in 30 seconds. Um, planks, wall push-ups, like all of those kinds of things that really get your muscles moving. That kind of stuff tends to be helpful. Um, you can also gamify it a little bit. Again, you'll know your class. This is I I have a hard time sometimes giving like a general thing because there's such very it is, but you could do you, you know, you can do little like if you're seeing the uh energy dip, then you might see how many jumps you can do in 10 seconds, and then everybody sits back down, or like a chair push-up challenge, like, can you get yourself off the chair?

SPEAKER_00 39:09

Oh my gosh, you know, Sam's doing it.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

Wait, oh Carrie, you can't get, you know, like and make it a little bit playful at the same time. Um, be safe. Again, you know your building, you know your your students, but any it sometimes it's as simple as like when a kid is about to get really dysregulated, sending them somewhere with a folder, like, hey, can you carry this? Or a heavy box of books would be even better. Can you can you carry this down to Ms. Willis's office? And that movement, that there's a variety of things that happen. So postural shift and um the weight of the books and moving their buttons, like cross-body movement, all of those things help wake back, like wake up the upstairs brain so that when they come back, there's a better chance that they're gonna do whatever the instruction was that you just gave them that they said F you to.

SPEAKER_02 40:08

That is so helpful. Like I think that a lot of teachers are going to find that really, really helpful. And it also is super like validating for the work I do because like I've got like these secondary is really hard to do things like calm corners and that kind of stuff. So I for sure I do provide resources for that, but what I like to give teachers are like little cards with different kinds of breaks on them, and there's a movement deck and all the things that you just love it, like said they're on there. Great idea. And so it's really like validating to hear that like that's why it works. Yeah, kind of putting those pieces together, like that's why when I get students to do that, then I see it, you know, the benefit of that after the shift happens, yeah. So, and I think a lot of teachers are probably the same as me where we're like, we know these movement breaks are important, but why? So yes, understand that's why, like the theory beneath that is really empowering for teachers because we can then understand like why we're doing things and then be more responsive to behaviors rather than just kind of chucking spaghetti at the wall and hope that it works. And that's why your work is so powerful for educators.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

Well, thank you. That's how I felt as a therapist as well. Like I would I would stumble into some things that worked. I'm like, why did this work? So that's really my hope in if you explore my work, if you read Light Up the Learning Brain, that you'll feel validated, that you'll see yourself in some of the things that happen and maybe get some new ideas and some ways that you can just keep expanding that brain-building capacity.

SPEAKER_02 41:43

And I guess that brings us nicely to like where can teachers learn more about you, find more out about the work that you do? Can you share all the goods for us, please?

SPEAKER_01 41:53

Sure. So as you're listening to this, there is a brand new Brave Brains website that has been a well, like seven years in the in the making, but one year of like poke my own eyeballs out, um, labor. So that is up and running. There's a free resource library if you just kind of want to poke around a little bit. Um, light up the learning brain. I wrote for you, for educators who need the nuggets of neuroscience, but really the practical, like, what does this look like in my life kind of stuff. And so that book is available anywhere you find books, as well as as an audiobook. And um, one of my very favorite things that I get to do is the behavior-rewired train the trainer, where I'm working with school leaders and I use that word in the spirit that it's intended. So if you're a leader in your classroom, in your department, as a counselor, as a as a you know, official like principal or dean or something like that, and into the district level, getting all of you in the room together and um spending two days digging into how we help adults hold this and shift. And um, there's a framework called the Brave Framework that we that just makes it a little bit easier to hold some of these truths that maybe are sort of floating around from different theories or trainings that you've had. We can sort of solidify it and help you have a way to move forward.

SPEAKER_02 43:27

So that sounds brilliant, Jess. And I appreciate you coming onto the Unteachables podcast. I appreciate the work you're doing in this space, and I am thrilled that you were able to take some time out from your busy day uh working and parenting and all of the things to be able to join us and share such beautiful insights with my community. So thank you so much, Jess.

SPEAKER_01 43:49

Thanks for having me, Claire. It's been great.