The Unteachables Podcast
Welcome to 'The Unteachables Podcast', your go-to resource for practical classroom management strategies and teacher support. I’m your host, Claire English, a passionate secondary teacher and leader turned teacher mentor and author of 'It's Never Just About the Behaviour: A Holistic Approach to Classroom Behaviour Management.' I'm on a mission to help educators like you transform your classrooms, build confidence, and feel empowered.
Why am I here? Not too long ago, I was overwhelmed by low-level classroom disruptions and challenging behaviors. After thousands of hours honing my skills in real classrooms and navigating ups and downs, I’ve become a confident, capable teacher ready to reach every student—even those with the most challenging behaviors. My journey inspired me to support teachers like you in mastering effective classroom strategies that promote compassion, confidence, and calm.
On The Unteachables Podcast, we’ll dive into simple, actionable strategies that you can use to handle classroom disruptions, boost student engagement, and create a positive learning environment.
You'll hear from renowned experts such as:
Bobby Morgan of the Liberation Lab
Marie Gentles, behavior expert behind BBC's 'Don't Exclude Me' and author of 'Gentles Guidance'
Robyn Gobbel, author of 'Raising Kids with Big Baffling Behaviours'
Dr. Lori Desautels, assistant professor and published author
And many more behaviour experts and mentors.
Angela Watson from the Truth for Teachers Podcast.
Whether you’re an early career teacher, a seasoned educator, or a teaching assistant navigating classroom challenges, this podcast is here to help you feel happier, empowered, and ready to make an impact with every student.
Be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode packed with classroom tips and inspiring conversations that make a real difference!
The Unteachables Podcast
#178: What good support from senior leadership actually looks like when a teacher says I'm drowning, with Aaron Johnston
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
This is the final one. My last episode live here at EduTech 2026, and I cannot think of a better way to wrap it up.
Joining me is my teachergram turned real life friend Aaron Johnston, who popped his head into the booth yesterday and got roped into coming back for an interview. If you don't already know Aaron, you should. He is a deputy principal at Talara Public School, now in his 18th year of teaching, and he is well known across the teacher podcast space for leading the way on Aboriginal education, so much so that in 2024 he was recognised as Primary Educator of the Year at the Koori Curriculum Awards. Many of you will also know Aaron through Mr J's Learning Space and the Teacher Takeaway podcast, where he interviews leading educational experts, including me, not that long ago.
We get into classroom management from a leadership lens, including the biggest mistakes schools make when supporting teachers through behaviour challenges, why rescuing a struggling teacher too quickly can actually disempower them, and why "what's your approach to behaviour" needs to start long before the first warning is ever given.
Aaron also opens up about the loneliness of school leadership, the unseen burden leaders carry every single day, and why he genuinely loves it when a teacher cries in his office, because it means they feel safe enough to be honest with him. We close out with a brilliant rapid fire win or bin round covering open door policies, whole school behaviour systems, reward systems, observations, unscheduled learning walks, staff meetings, and yes, the dreaded staff morning tea as a wellbeing strategy.
What you'll learn:
- Why time, not more resources, is the thing teachers need most from school leaders right now
- The "pruning principle" and why letting go of something is often more powerful than adding something new
- Why rescuing a struggling teacher too quickly can actually disempower them and damage student relationships
- What good quality support from senior leadership actually looks like when a teacher says "I am drowning"
- Why compliance built on fear isn't the same as respect, and why it makes long-term classroom management harder
- The loneliness of school leadership, and why Aaron genuinely wants teachers to feel safe enough to cry in his office
- What teachers often misunderstand about the pressures and competing demands placed on school leaders
- Aaron's honest win or bin verdicts on open door policies, whole school behaviour systems, reward systems, observations, learning walks, staff meetings, and staff morning teas
- The most underrated leadership quality, and the one thing every teacher wishes their leader understood
Have a question, comment, or just want to say hello? Drop us a text!
RESOURCES AND MORE SUPPORT:
- Shop all resources
- Join The Behaviour Club
- My book! It’s Never Just About the Behaviour: A holistic approach to classroom behaviour management
- The Low-Level Behaviour Bootcamp
- Free guide: 'Chats that Create Change'
Connect with me:
- Follow on Instagram @the.unteachables
- Check out my website
Hi there, teachers. Welcome to the Unteachables Podcast. I'm your host, Claire English, and I am just a fellow teacher, a toddler mama, and a big old behaviour nerd on a mission to demystify and simplify that little thing called classroom management. The way we've all been taught to manage behaviour and classroom manage has left us playing front control, which is not something I subscribe to because we're not balancers with teachers. So listen in as I walk you through the game-changing strategies, and I mean the things that we can actually do in action in our classrooms that will allow you to lean into your beautiful values as a compassionate educator and feel empowered to run your room with a little more calm and dare I say it's a lot less chaos. I will see you in the episode. Hello, hello, and welcome back to the Unteachables podcast. This is actually my final one live here at EduTech
Welcome And Why We’re Here
SPEAKER_022026. And I am very excited for this last one because I have got my teacher gram turned real life friend Aaron Johnston here. He actually popped his head into the booth yesterday, and I went, hey, why don't you just come along and do a little interview with me? And he so graciously accepted that. Aaron Johnson, if you don't know who he is, uh he definitely um is prevalent in the teacher podcast space. He is a deputy principal at Talara Public School, currently working on Wanarua Country, and he is now in his 18th year of teaching. He must have started around the same time as me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. 2009, I think it was. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I think I was 2010. Uh throughout his, not about me, this is not about me though. Uh throughout his career, Aaron has worked across every primary year level and held a variety of leadership positions, including, of course, a classroom teacher, a learning and support teacher, well-being officer, assistant principal, assistant principal curriculum instruction. You have done a lot in your career.
SPEAKER_01He's been busy.
SPEAKER_02And I think one of the things that you are most well known for, especially here at EduTech, and what I know you for, is the way that you lead on Aboriginal education across multiple schools, and you're a passionate ally and advocate for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island education. So much so that in 2024 you are recognized as primary educator of the year at the Couri Curriculum Awards. And as I said, many educators will know Aaron through Mr. J's Learning Space and Teacher Takeaway podcast, where he interviews leading educational experts from around the world. And I was on his podcast quite recently as well. And that was an absolute privilege. Aaron, thank you so much for squeezing in our chat and welcome to the Unteachables podcast.
SPEAKER_01Well, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure. It is absolutely a privilege to sit down with you, Claire, and have a chat.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, especially because when we did your podcast, it was over Zoom.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_02And how much nicer is this?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's so good to be sitting together in person.
SPEAKER_02It's just like that, that's what's been the best thing about EduTech. Like coming out of the hobbit hole that you kind of usually sit in when you're doing certain things and actually connecting with people face to face, which is just amazing.
SPEAKER_01And and these people that you're genuinely friends with, but we've actually never been in the same room, um, only on Zoom or you know, social media. But hey, we're in the same room. So it's so nice. It's great to have this opportunity at EduTech to be in the same place at the same time.
SPEAKER_02So let's kick off with a little question.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_02Uh so you have worked in classrooms, you've worked in well-being, learning support, leadership. You've seen it all, right? And you've been on the receiving end of leaders, and you are now a leader to teachers. I'm gonna be asking you some questions today that might be a little bit juicy, by the way, because you are you've been across so many things and you're a very empathetic person. I obviously I don't work at your school, but I imagine you being a very compassionate leader that really puts the well-being of these teachers at the forefront of what you do. What do you think is something that teachers need most from school leaders at the moment?
SPEAKER_01Um, I I always say the biggest thing that teachers need is just time. Um and it's really hard in schools because it's a really fast-paced environment and things change so
Time, Pace, And The Pruning Principle
SPEAKER_01quickly. Um, and we're always about doing the next thing or doing something better that we can just get kind of on the hamster wheel of just what's the next thing, what's the next thing?
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and I think it's actually there's there's an art in slowing down, just picking one thing and focusing in on that and giving teachers the time to do it. But the logistics of how you do that is actually really hard. How do you give teachers time to reflect on their practice and take a deep dive into, you know, what does research say and how do we do things better? You know, when you've got restrictions on meeting times and all of that. But I actually think that the greatest gift we can give our teachers is just a slower pace and more time to actually reflect on the work that they do and and do things deeper rather than try and do surface level all of the things, because we can never do all of the things right. Um, and I guess as leaders it's balancing like what's the most important thing right now that needs to be at the forefront of our agenda and just keeping our focus on that, or even if it's one or two things, just staying focused and staying the course and not moving on too quickly. Um, you know, it's good to have plans in place, you know, we're gonna focus in on this for a term or for six months. But if we don't get to where we go, it's okay to go, we're actually not ready to move on yet.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I think having that kind of culture where we try and embrace a slower pace is kind of what we need to do more of. But it's hard to do that because schools are busy places with lots of things.
SPEAKER_02And lots of different initiatives going on at once. And if a school leadership team can go, actually, we really value this new initiative that we're bringing in. We value it so much that we're going to allow enough space to let this happen and for people to implement properly and to have time for reflection and feedback, like that is very hard to do because on every school improvement plan, there are multiple things that need to be done. There are just, you know, like there are so many things going on at once. So if we can allow teachers a space to actually focus on the things that really matter, instead of inundating them with so many Yeah, and we and we all have a limited capacity, right?
SPEAKER_01Like at some point we actually have to ask ourselves the question of, well, what are we gonna let go of? Um, and you know, there's a there's a great piece of work out there by Simon Brakesbury called the pruning principle. And that's a really great thing to think about. If we want to do something new, like actually, what are we gonna prune? And I love that the whole imagery of a plant, like that's how we get new growth is by trimming that. And often we just go, well, we're just gonna add this thing, we're just gonna add this thing. But actually, sometimes we need to get rid of some things or say goodbye to some things because they don't serve the purpose anymore.
SPEAKER_02The big dangly old limbs that I think about.
SPEAKER_01And that's a hard, yeah, that's a hard thing to do. Yeah, um, because sometimes for people, identity can be tied into doing that thing that way. Yeah, um, but it's no longer what we want to do, or it's no longer the most important thing. Um that's a really big exercise to reflect on and go, what are we gonna not do or let go of so we can do that next thing.
SPEAKER_02The identity thing and a little bit of ego sometimes, because I've had leaders who have been, they've it's like a sunken cost fallacy, isn't it? Where they've put so much time and energy into this one thing and they've really wrapped their whole identity in this succeeding and this being the best thing for the school. Yeah. For them to treat that and like prune it away for something better to like that is really hard to do. Yeah, yeah. And to be able to be a leader that's reflective enough to say, like, this isn't working.
SPEAKER_01It's and it's taking people on that journey too, so that they actually understand the need to maybe let it go. So it isn't just oh Aaron's getting rid of this thing again, or Claire doesn't want to sue that, she doesn't like it. So let's actually, as a team, collectively look at what do we think is not working or what do we think is no longer serving the purpose so it isn't that top-down approach in leadership of we have to stop doing this because you know someone said so.
SPEAKER_02I love that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I'm gonna move on to classroom management. You ready?
SPEAKER_01Let's do it.
SPEAKER_02What are some of the biggest classroom management challenges you're seeing teachers face right now compared to when you first started teaching?
SPEAKER_01Well, it's an interesting one. It's always always that debate of has behaviour gotten worse? Is it just that we're we're looking at things through a different lens now? And I don't know. I I do think behaviour is getting trickier and it's coming with the change in society, the change in, you know, what our what students are exposed to. And like let's be honest, we don't want to talk about it much, but COVID did a lot.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and we are still seeing the impact of that in our learners, yeah um, who, you know, had you know relationships ripped away, and there is there is trauma there because there was big things in their their life that were taken away from them, and we need to acknowledge that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and I do think it's we're also in this place where we we've learned more about behavior, more about neuroscience,
Why Behaviour Feels Harder Now
SPEAKER_01and we're we're stuck in this place of we know that maybe some of the ways that we were doing things aren't necessarily trauma informed.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But I I'm nervous to break into this space of learning something new that is uncomfortable. That also feels like it's more work because I don't necessarily see the immediate change in behavior. Yeah. Whereas if I give that that child a sticker and they stop doing something for five minutes, that's a win.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But ultimately, the research says that that doesn't really make lasting change. Yeah. Um, and it's it's a tricky place to be in because uh we we just do what we are comfortable with, and it's being in an uncomfortable place is hard. Um, but I do actually think at the cold face of education in classrooms behaviour is uh is a lot tricky, and we have different generations of students coming through that have different needs, and it's about supporting teachers to to know how best they can approach those things, yeah. Um, and knowing that sometimes the best course of action is gonna take more work in the long term, yeah. Um, and being able to commit to that um is really important. But there's power in, like we said, doing the long-term work rather than just looking for those short, quick fixes that often will work for five minutes and then the next time they won't work.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly. Or they're working and they think they're working really well, but actually what's happening is students are too fearful to step out of line.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And that doesn't so people think, okay, well, punitive approaches do work, and I'm gonna stick with that because I need to get control over my class. Because it's teachers, it's yeah, it's really bloody tough.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it absolutely is.
SPEAKER_02So they're like, okay, well, I'm gonna do what works, which is the punitive stuff, the stuff that gets students sitting in rows and gets them working. But actually, we're still not getting, even if they are compliant, doesn't mean they're learning. Yeah. Um, so moving away from those strategies is naturally going to make us see students for who they actually are, not as the students they are when they're scared to put a foot out of line.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And and like you were saying, too, compliance and respect are two very different things. Um, and students may be compliant, but if it's based out of fear, there isn't that relationship, there isn't that respect. Um, and that makes the work long term harder as well.
SPEAKER_03It erodes it, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I and I think too, one of the tricky things as a leader in a leadership perspective is you know, I I always want to support my teachers, but it's navigating the balance of not taking their power away. Like I I would if if things aren't going well, I will come in and I will support and I'll say to that little person, like, let's have some time out and go for a walk and help you. But if I'm always doing that, it's actually de-skilling and disempowering the teacher. Yes. And it's really tricky because I want to be there and I want to have their back, but I also want to support them and empower them so that when those things happen, they've got the tools and the skills to respond and do it in a way that keeps relationship at the forefront, remains respect and dignity for themselves and the student.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and I think that's a tricky dynamic in leadership is wanting to be supportive, but not disempowering your teachers because then the students will not have respect for that teacher. Yeah. Because, oh, you know, Claire just always calls Mr. J. I don't like I don't respect her. Yeah. And we don't want that.
SPEAKER_02And there's no there's no return to class in a way that repairs uh or has any kind of um plan for the following lesson? If it was to do like a bit of a circuit break for that student, it'd be totally different. But if it's just to, okay, I just need this kid out of the class, go teachers don't realize how disempowering it is for them and how much harder it's making their job. And that actually like leads me on to the next question really nicely, which is what is some of the biggest mistakes schools make when trying to support teachers with behavior? Um, are there some leadership responses that actually make classroom management challenges worse? There's a lot of leaders cop a lot of crap. Um, I'm a lead, you know, I've been a senior leader myself. Obviously, you're a senior leader on social media, you see it all of the time, like the the demonization of school leadership, which some leaders maybe aren't supporting their their staff. Um what do you see as some of the big mistakes that schools might be making when it comes to supporting their staff?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and I think that's one of the things that we just talked about is that you know, um immediately that that rescuing too soon. Like sometimes it it is the thing that needs to happen for the teacher, for the student, for everybody else, so learning can happen. It is what needs
When Support Systems Backfire
SPEAKER_01to happen, but you can't become the rescuer or the saver all of the time because it ultimately disempowers the teacher, it breaks down the relationship between the teacher and the student. And like you said, also thinking about you know what's what's next. You know, I've come in and I've supported, but what is the return plan? How are we going to repair, you know, that rift in the relationship or that damage that's happened? Because that's just as important as providing support in the moment, but making sure that that relationship between the teacher and the student also stays strong. And I think the other thing is too, everyone likes a system, everyone likes uh to know what to do, but thinking that having a one-size-fits-all kind of approach is gonna be the answer, you know, a five-step plan, you do this, you do this. Ultimately, like, yes, it's good to have a framework and some guides to work within, but that ultimately doesn't work for every student. Yeah, um, and it's it's still keeping that personalized, yeah, student-centered approach because for some students, those five-steps exit the classroom is not always what's it's not gonna work. Yeah. Um, you know, the same with just thinking, you know, for instance, schools that have, you know, whatever reflection room or things like so for some students that does not work. Um, but just putting them in there because that's the process, that's what we do here. Um, you know, and it's finding that balance too, because then you have, you know, people that go, oh, well, you know, having a restorative approach or they just get away with everything, and and they don't. It's actually having a system that works, but not thinking that it's gonna work for everybody every time. You know, it's it's about having a toolkit of different approaches, strategies that we can use at point of need. Yeah, um, and I think that's something that schools need to think about is what is your approach in the sense of you know, we can't have a one size fits all approach for behavior and for student well-being because every student is different.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you can't like what's the word, like you can't not systemize it, but if if you want to step one, two, and three for student behavior, you're not going to get it because every single student, every single situation is so different. And student A might go really well doing step one, step two, step three, like if you follow that process, um, but it just doesn't work very much. No, that's right.
SPEAKER_01And and I think too, sometimes with those approaches, the focus is so much on the um reactive rather than actually what are the proactive preventative strategies that we're putting in place to identify de-escalate early so that we don't actually need to get to that stage. And that's why I love approaches like Berry Street and things like that, because the focus is really on what are we actually doing before the behavior even presents itself to create a classroom space that's that's safe, yeah, um, that's predictable, that's comfortable, but teachers aren't just putting out spot fires.
SPEAKER_02Oh, it's my you're speaking my language, honestly, Aaron. Like that is everything that I do, like all the routines that I teach. It's all about like a filter, like you're filtering out all of those kinds of smaller, lower level disruptions. So when big behaviors do happen, you can approach those. You have the capacity to. Because you're not dealing with all of those little like whack-a-mole moments.
SPEAKER_01Yes. And ultimately, I think the fact that if we ask this question to most people, when you say, What's just your approach to behavior? They're gonna say, Oh, well, I give first warning, second warning, yeah, yeah. Without actually thinking, but hang on, before all of that, yeah, what's what's your approach when they they come in the door at the start of the day? Because you are hopefully putting things in place from the moment they enter the door. And I think that's probably something that is a is something we don't think about enough.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Is before any of the behavior happens, what have we done?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and most of it isn't about behavior, like all of that stuff is like really teaching and learning, routiney, like it's classroom classroom management isn't bad. I don't see it as behavior. Classroom management is really like what are the things that are like like the heartbeats of our lesson.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I think too, like you were saying as well, it's it's then okay, we've had those big behaviors. Yeah. Those things have happened reflecting and going, well, what am I gonna do tomorrow to try and stop that happening? Not just, oh, well, if it happens again, we'll just manage it.
SPEAKER_02Ground harm day.
SPEAKER_01Correct, and we just get in that constantly reacting rather than stopping, going, okay, so this happened. What can I do differently tomorrow? Because it is what it is, it can't change it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, let's debrief, let's support, let's talk through it. Yeah, but what can we try and do differently tomorrow at a preventative, proactive level, not just wait for it to happen again? Because if we don't do that, it's probably is gonna happen again.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Oh we just get in that cycle. Absolutely. It does more than often if they're a more complex student with more complex needs. So just say, like, if a teacher had one of those lessons and they came to you and said, like, Aaron, I am drowning, nothing is working, this happened, like, what does good quality support look like from senior leadership?
SPEAKER_01I think first of all, it's just listening. Yeah, just stopping, not not trying to save the day and give them solutions. Because for some teachers, they actually don't need that. That's not what they want. They just need to feel seen and heard, and I think just giving space to just sit back and listen, yeah, um, and then ask them, how would you like me to help you? How can I help you?
SPEAKER_04Love that.
SPEAKER_01Um, because sometimes they don't want me to give them strategies.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, sometimes they do. Sometimes they go, I don't know where to go to next. And then we can provide that support. But but putting it on the teacher and just saying, what can I do as your leader? What can I do to support you? Um, but I think first of all, it's creating that space where they feel safe to come to you. And I say this a lot and it sounds a bit funny. Um, but I love when people come
What Great Leader Support Looks Like
SPEAKER_01into my office and cry.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because you know, as a leader, I'm I feel like I'm creating the right space because people should feel like my door is always open. They can come in and cry, we can cry it out, we can debrief and we can move forward. Um, and if you as a leader feel like people won't do that, well, that's a good place to start. Yeah. Having that safe space where teachers feel like they can come and go, Yeah, I'm drowning, it's not working.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, rather than thinking, oh, you know, Aaron, I can't, I can't tell him that I'm struggling. I've got to have it all together. Um, because no teacher feel ever really feels like that. Most of the time, if you ask a teacher, they're probably gonna say nine times out of ten, I just feel like I'm drowning, I'm struggling.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because teaching is so vulnerable.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like it's so exposing standing in front of a class of 30 who all have their own stuff going on, low-level disruptions, or like it's just it it really feels exposing, and sometimes it can get so overstimulating and overwhelming.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And if you have a leader that you can go to who's not going to judge you and say, just get over it, like just get on with it. It is your job to get on with it. What have you tried? Keep going back, like just having someone to say, This is bloody hard.
SPEAKER_01Like that's right. Yeah. And and you know, just giving that validation and then, you know, offering, you know, I'm happy to come in and support you. But also if if the the thing is the teacher needs their capacity and their capability built, providing that opportunity, giving them that time and space of going, hey, I hear you. Let's in let's invest in getting you some professional learning. Yeah, here's a great book by Claire that you should read.
SPEAKER_02Here's never just about the behavior by Claire English. Yeah, here's our teacher.
SPEAKER_01Offering those things because if that's what they need, um, there's no point burying your head in the scent if they're saying I'm really struggling and I don't have the toolkit or the skill sets. They're not just going to absorb it, like actually going, Okay, I hear you. Yeah, here's what I can do to try and support you.
SPEAKER_02Um I actually had a beautiful principal come by just before, and I was talking to James about this. Um, he came by and he bought two copies of my book for his staff, and he had already signed up one of his staff members to my course. And he was like, I just like this teacher here. Really struggling, and I'm trying to give him everything that I can to help him feel successful. And he's like, I don't know if this is going to, I don't know if he's going to be able to you know now clash and manage, but I need to make sure that he's got everything he needs. And my gosh, like I just said to James, like, how beautiful to have a leader that is so willing to look around and go, okay, like what's actually some strategies here that like how can I help my staff? Like, how can I genuinely help my staff? Like that I think that's beautiful.
SPEAKER_01And I think too, another thing that leaders can do is go, hey, how about I come in and I'll do a lesson for you? But actually, so that they can see that it's not you. Like, I I I have the same, you know, struggles in that class and in that lesson too. And that's validating for the teacher because, like you said, it can become quite personal. It's just me, I'm a failure. Um, and you know, or yeah, particularly with early career teachers, you have to go, yeah, but I've been doing this for 18 years, so I do have a few more skills, and that's okay. But it's also good for them to see that it's not just them.
SPEAKER_02Like, how bad are those? Like when you're in a staff meeting or something and you're talking about um a challenging student, yeah, and like a debriefing, and then a teacher's like, oh, they're okay for me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they're the worst, not helpful, not helpful, don't do that ever. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I'm going to just give you an opportunity to just talk through a couple of things that you wish that teachers understood about being a school leader because I think a lot gets put on our plate. I remember being a middle leader. So when I was a deputy, I found it really hard to manage up.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I was really struggling, managing up and then also managing down.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02What do you think teachers often misunderstand about the pressures of being a school leader?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. It's it's a tricky place to be in, absolutely. And I don't know if um everyone fully understands. I'll say first of all, it's a really low it can be a really lonely place because you do carry a lot that other people don't see or understand. And and I love that. Like I love that my teachers have a great day and I can just go, I haven't, but if you've had a great day, I'm doing my job well, because it's often calm on the surface, but that frantic um, you know, duck
The Unseen Loneliness Of Leadership
SPEAKER_01feet underneath. So it it's there's a lot of unseen things. And I think the the tricky thing is to when we are in the classroom or within our stage or our faculty, we've got that one, just that singular kind of narrow view. Um, and sometimes I think it's it's important as teachers to step back and see that as a school leader, we're actually balancing many different faculties and agendas and things, and it's funny that place of wanting to consult with your staff, but we can't all get our own way, and we're kind of the meat in the sandwich of we want to support our teachers at the cold face, but we do have policies and procedures and things that we have to work within. And it's not that I don't value what you're saying, or it's not that you're you know your idea is not important, but at this point in time we can't do everything, and sometimes that can be a tricky thing because you know, well, you asked for my feedback and you didn't do it. Yeah, it's not it's not that it wasn't valid, it's just at this point in time where it's just not actually something that's possible. Yeah, um, but I think sometimes it's it's underseen that there is a much bigger picture going on within a school. Um, and I know particularly in my school, it's huge. There are so many moving parts that um lots of people don't recognize or understand because they just focus on the work they're doing as they should be. Yeah. Um, but it's that unseen burden that leaders carry that not many people recognize, and the guilt because you want to support your staff, but you know there's things that you're gonna have to ask of them that are that are hard and are gonna and I and I am that empathetic leader. I do not like upsetting people or disappointing people, and that's a really tricky burden to carry day to day when I know I'm gonna have to make some decisions and Claire is gonna be really disappointed about that. Um, and I try and always be honest and and embrace that vulnerability, but it's it's a tricky thing to navigate to because ultimately you want your teachers to love their work and to be happy, yeah. But no matter what you do, you can't always make everybody happy all of the time, and it's that tricky place of wanting to support your teachers, but also having to work within a system that has certain things that you need to do and processes that you need to follow, yeah. Um, and also keeping it student-centered and keeping students at the center too. Sometimes, you know, I I can't do that because this is about what's best for this student. Um, and yeah, it's a tricky place to navigate. And I think it's just the the loneliness of leadership, depending on what level of leadership you're in in a school, um you don't always have the same people that that get what you're going through or get that. It's important to have as leaders networks outside of your school. And I'm grateful I have lots of great leaders outside of my school that are in the same boat that I can go to. But acknowledging that you know, teachers have got the the teacher next door and things like that. But if you're the only deputy or the only assistant principal, it can be a really lonely burden to carry. Um, and like every teacher, we second guess ourselves and we are constantly, I shouldn't have done that, or I'm not doing this good enough. Um, so encourage your leaders, tell them that they're doing a good job because they probably don't hear it enough.
SPEAKER_02Um that's they're probably copying it from the principal and from you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And it really genuinely is a very lonely place to sit.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I found senior leadership incredibly isolating.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, and you don't want to have those hard discussions. Like nobody likes those hard discussions, but it comes with the role. Like you just have to do it. And I think that if you're you've got a good leader who has their heart in the right place, they're doing their best. Yeah. I think that's really nice.
SPEAKER_01And I think ultimately, too, for leaders, it's it's about um sticking with your core values. Yeah. Um, because I think ultimately in the long run, your teams will respect that more because they see that every time you have to make a decision, you don't waver from your values and what you've said is important. Yeah. Um, but it's knowing that sometimes when you do that, it's not necessarily gonna make everybody happy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So true. I'm gonna give you a little rapid fire.
SPEAKER_01Let's do it.
SPEAKER_02Win or bin. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Now can I do I just have to say win or bin, or am I allowed to elaborate?
SPEAKER_02You can elaborate a little bit.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh this is something that I have only just implemented on the podcast during edutech, and I'm gonna keep it because I really like this format. Open door policy.
SPEAKER_01Win every time. Yeah, win. Like I said, come into my office and cry any any time of the day.
SPEAKER_02Do you know what's really interesting though, right? I had a conversation about the open door policy with a teach the other day, and she was like, I actually want to discourage an open door policy for she was talking about her principal, because you want to model having boundaries for people's time as well. Um, and like booking in a meeting. I'm an open door policy kind of girl. Um, I just thought that was a different perspective I've never heard before as well.
SPEAKER_01And I get that too. And I think I would say I'm getting better
Win Or Bin: Policies, Walks, Meetings
SPEAKER_01at saying, Claire, I hear you. This is really important to me. Can we come back and talk about this now? Because I do have another meeting to get to or something like that. So it's keeping the open door policy, but but with those little hey, listen right now, because I actually want to give you the time that's a good thing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, this deserves this, this actually requires more time than I have right now, and I'm not gonna give you the the attention that it that it deserves. So let's book in a time. I think even that one sentence is really helpful for people in leadership because you do want to do the best, you want to be able to listen to your stuff, but sometimes you just can't do everything all at once. Okay, uh, whole school behavior systems.
SPEAKER_01We just kind of talked about that. I'd say bin in the sense of one system doesn't work.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02Reward system?
SPEAKER_01Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, I would say win, because it depends what we're talking about. Yeah. Should we acknowledge achievement and effort and success? 150%.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Should we necessarily be focused on, you know, shifting behavior with rewards and prizes and things? No.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. It's such an interesting one. Yeah, I agree. Like, I think like award ceremonies are really fun. Like, really, yeah. Um, but I also recognize that neurodivergent students like really do respond to some reward systems. Like, so there it's it's so hard to give like black and white answers.
SPEAKER_01I know, it's like that personalized approach.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's what needs to happen for that person, yes.
SPEAKER_02But then you have to like explain to the rest of the class like this is an individual, otherwise it's yeah. The difference between equity and equality, yeah, that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh okay, observations.
SPEAKER_01I would say win. I love, I love, I love being observed. Yeah, same. I love it. I think it's one of the greatest ways to improve as as teachers. Uh, I think it all comes down to the culture that you build around that. Um it's gotta be safe. Yeah, it's gotta be safety.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I love that. I actually did a post about a year ago on Instagram and it was like, we need to take back observations, like, you know, as something like really empowering. Like we should be observing like fellow teachers and and not just having it as this like top-down, like, let me critique your practice.
SPEAKER_01And come and evaluate you.
SPEAKER_02Exactly.
SPEAKER_01Like, and I think not what it should be about.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, like teachers can learn so much from their peers.
SPEAKER_01Watching another teacher. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I I I love I love observations.
SPEAKER_01I love going and observing people.
SPEAKER_02Same.
SPEAKER_01But I also love being observed.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I know when I was in my you know, instructional leadership role and I would be going in and demonstrating lessons, I'd say, Claire, I'm gonna do this lesson for you, but I actually want you to give me some feedback. And they're like, What? I was like, it's not gonna be a perfect lesson. No lesson ever is. Yeah, no matter how long you've been in the game, there's always something that someone will see that you didn't see.
SPEAKER_02See, and same like vice versa, if you're watching somebody like, ah, that's interesting. I love it. I really love it. Unscheduled learning walks.
SPEAKER_01Again, I say yes. Yeah. One of the things I find is being a deputy principal, and I hate it, I hate when I walk into a classroom and everyone stops.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I just want to create that place where you can come in and out, there's no judgment. Like, you know, when I walk into a room, just carry on. Yeah, it shouldn't. What are you here for? What are you doing? Yeah. And that's all about what's the purpose, what's the heart behind it. I think we have to start with scheduled ones to build that safety and that process of understanding what it's about and it's not evaluation. Yeah. Um, it's about, you know, hearing from students and what what their experience is and how they're finding learning. Yeah. Um, but to get to that place where unscheduled learning walks are a thing, I'm all I'm all for it because, you know, if you've got five minutes and you can go into a classroom and quickly see something that's going on, like what a great place to be in.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. We um at our not going to name the school, obviously, or say which one, at one of the schools I've worked at in the past, we had learning walks, right? And I had to be a part of that learning walk as a member of senior leadership, which I absolutely hated. Like it's so hard being out of integrity because you are at a school that isn't in alignment with your values, so you're like forced to do these things. Um, but my teachers knew I had their backs. But these learning walks would be presented as if they were just to see what students were like and how they were engaged. Let's just like measure student engagement. But actually, then the teachers who had class struck classroom management struggles were getting pulled aside. Yeah. And being sp and I'm like, that's you've you've just undermined the whole thing. Undermined the whole process, and now staff are not going to trust you. Yeah. Um, so it really again going back to that culture that you described when talking about like you know, yeah. Uh staff meetings. That's a bit of a crap one, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01No, it's a win, but too many is a bin.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it's gotta be purposeful. Yeah. Like always say it doesn't need to be an email. I sorry, if it does need to be a meeting, make it an email.
SPEAKER_02Make it an email, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So when they're purposeful, and I think when they're collaborative, yeah, you know, no one likes to be, you know, just lectured to for an hour.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, because it's funny, right? We talk about all the things that engage students in learning, but it's like when we have a staff meeting, we kind of throw all those things out the window.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, so thinking about how adults learn um and having purposeful staff meetings, all for it.
SPEAKER_02I just thought of a new one that I didn't have on the list.
SPEAKER_01Do it.
SPEAKER_02Uh having a staff morning tea for their well-being.
SPEAKER_01Been. Uh I mean a morning tea is great, but if that is your staff well-being strategy, yeah, um, yeah, we need to go a little bit deeper than just having a having a donut for a well-being week.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, you know, they're they're great, but the other weeks are important too.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh okay. I'd like to finish on a couple of rapid fire questions.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_02The most underrated leadership quality.
SPEAKER_01Emotional intelligence.
SPEAKER_02Hey, I like that one. One thing every teacher wishes their leader understood.
SPEAKER_01I am trying my best.
SPEAKER_02Oh, stop, I'm gonna make me cry.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I think every everyone every day goes to work to just do my do their best. Like, no one comes to her and says I'm gonna do a crap job in the class.
SPEAKER_02I can't wait to do a really crap job in the classroom today. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I think as leaders, we have to remember like everyone is just doing their best they can with what they know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and what what like what situation they're in because Beverly could have had a really bad morning and there's the emotional intelligence coming in.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Being able to read Beverly and go, Bev's Bev's a bit off today. Bev's off, it's a big deal. Also, I realise I ruined the rapid fire question by explaining my answer.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I didn't even notice. My it was my fault.
SPEAKER_01I apologize for taking this off.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm just gonna take it off the whole the whole thing now. Yep. One thing every leader wishes teachers understood. Does that make sense? Yep.
SPEAKER_01Now the other way around. Uh and I I think I would say the same thing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01We're trying we're trying out, we're trying our best to manage all of the things, to hear you, to hear our students, to hear our community, and also balance all of our responsibilities as well.
SPEAKER_02Keep the principal happy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. Or the department or whoever you're answering to. On your teacher takeaway podcast, you finished up when you were interviewing me. And I think you did with all of your what do you call it? Podcastees.
SPEAKER_01Yep, guests.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah, guests spoiled the word, isn't it? My husband is laughing at me over there who is going to be a good one. I like that podcastees. Podcastees.
SPEAKER_01It's a new vocabulary.
SPEAKER_02Is it? Uh well, you like to finish up with one takeaway. So you gave me the takeaway, and then I gave a takeaway. So I would like to start with a takeaway that I got from this conversation. And there are honestly so many. I have enjoyed this podcast episode so much, and I'm so glad we're finishing on such a high for edutech. The biggest takeaway for me was that metaphor of the pruning of the tree and cutting away the sometimes you need to cut things away in order for new growth. I really love a good like visual metaphor, and you can apply that to anything. Like I can apply it to the unteachables, I can apply it to my teaching, we can apply it to parenting. Like, what can we strip away in order for things to flourish? Um, because we're so busy, we're always on the go. What can we do? What can we take off our plates? So it applies to everything. Everything really, I just love it. I think it's a beautiful metaphor.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think what you said is great because within schools and things like there's there's things that are out of out of our control. Like there's things
Takeaways And A Better Way Forward
SPEAKER_01I can't do anything about. But what do I have power over, even at a personal level, yeah, or at a classroom level, yeah, in my classroom, that I can prune back or that it's it's easy to be, feel like you're just in the system and you're just just like a slave to the system. I can't make any change. Yeah, but you can. There are things that you do have control over that you can empower and prune back so that you can do better work.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I love it. And what's your takeaway? Um, I think my takeaway from all the things that we've talked about is remembering that leaders are people too, and we're just trying to do the best that we can. It's easy, I think, in all the things that we've talked about to just see leaders as part of the system. It's just a hierarchy, but they're the man pushing it still.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01The the person putting the pressure on us. Yeah, but like we said too, like we're we're people too, and we get it, like, and we feel the pressure as well. And we hear you, and we our, you know, our goal as leaders is to is to support teachers, but yeah, we're balancing our own emotions and our own and often doing it quietly because we want to protect our teams, you know, behind closed doors. Yes, yes, you don't know. Because there's that there's that unspoken burden that we carry because ultimately we don't want to put that on them because we already know our teachers are going through a lot, but ultimately remembering too that that we're people and we go through real things as well and we have real emotion. And I love I have certain people on my staff, they'll they'll come by and they'll go, How are you doing today? And I love those people because they're genuinely, and not just how are you, they're at they're actually asking that deeper level.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because they they actually know that the work that we do is is tough and we often put on a brave face because we won we want to protect our teachers and you know maintain the calm for everybody else. But I think remembering that in all of that, we're humans too, and we feel it just as much as teachers do, and sometimes more.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And if you are out there listening and you have a leader who is emotionally intelligent and cares deeply about you and is trying their very best, then protect them at all costs. And if you have some leaders out there that are gaslighting you and are treating you like crap and are doing all of the wrong things, you also can have boundaries around that. So I just wanted to caveat that because there are some really crappy leaders out there as well. Um, and I've experienced a lot of them firsthand. Yeah, and it's they wouldn't be listening to this podcast, they wouldn't be focusing on their growth. But uh, you know, like the right ones protect them. Like they're they're just like Aaron here, you know, um cares a lot about his people.
SPEAKER_01And yeah, and I think people often say to me, Oh, why do you want to be a school leader or be a school principal? Because I've been in places where I've almost wanted to walk away. Yes. And I don't want anybody else, students or or teachers to be in that place. And that's why I'm passionate about school leadership because I want to create schools where stuff love coming every day. Like it's hard, don't get me wrong, but we still love coming to work. Students love coming to work, like it's a place of joy. There's hard days, but ultimately it's a place of joy for everybody. Yeah, and that's why I'm super passionate about leadership because it makes a big difference.
SPEAKER_02I think that's a beautiful way to end. Thank you so much for coming onto the Unteachables podcast and giving me your time, Aaron. It has been an absolute pleasure to have you here today.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for having me, Claire.
