Mindset & Money Mastery for Photographers with Karinda K.

82. How to Sell Wall Art Clients Actually Want with Guest Tavis Guild

• Karinda K. • Episode 82

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What if the reason your clients “just want digitals” has nothing to do with price—and everything to do with what they don’t know exists?

In this episode, Karinda sits down with Tavis Guild of Guild Canvas to unpack one of the biggest misconceptions in the photography world: that clients don’t want wall art. Spoiler alert—they do. But it’s up to you to show them why it matters.

Together, they explore how to shift your sales mindset from file delivery to creating unforgettable experiences with printed products. You’ll learn:

  • The real reason clients ask for digitals (hint: it’s not about the money)
  • How to introduce wall art without being pushy
  • Why offering fewer options can actually boost your sales
  • The power of prestige, passion, and positioning
  • And the “suitcase wheels” analogy that will change how you think about product sales forever

Tavis brings insights from 17 years running a successful studio and leading Guild Canvas to reveal what really moves the needle when it comes to premium product sales.

If you're ready to stop playing small, confidently offer physical products, and elevate both your client experience and bottom line—this episode is your roadmap.

Meet Tavis Guild
Since 2008, Tavis and his wife Amy have run a successful portrait studio, bringing a deep understanding of what clients truly value when it comes to preserving memories.

In 2017, they took ownership of Guild Canvas—a company with a 50-year legacy of craftsmanship—and have proudly continued its tradition of excellence. Their mission is rooted in more than just producing beautiful products; it’s about celebrating family, honoring meaningful moments, and turning memories into art that lasts a lifetime.

Explore more at guildcanvas.com and follow along on Instagram at @tavisguild.

Connect with Karinda!

Thanks for listening!

Speaker 1:

Welcome to Mindset and Money Mastery for Photographers the podcast. We help overwhelmed photographers make more money while simplifying their business by mastering their you guessed it mindset and money. Tune in each week for practical and actionable tips to take your photography business up a notch. Let's dive right in.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so today I'm super excited to have Tavis Guild join us on the podcast. I've known Tavis for well I don't even know how long I've known you.

Speaker 3:

Years for sure. How many of those my wife would probably know exactly. That's not my.

Speaker 2:

I just think, like in terms of before child, after child, I feel like I've known you since before Kai was born, absolutely.

Speaker 3:

So probably like five maybe six years now.

Speaker 2:

Tavis is the face one of the faces of Guild Canvas. In case you haven't heard me talk about them, if you've been listening to the podcast, you've heard me talk about Guild Canvas, so now you know this is one of the people behind Guild Canvas, Tavis. Do you want to introduce yourself?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, hi, I'm Tavis, nice, nice to meet you all. Man, you guys are so lucky to be listening to Karinda, like she, she has it going on and she gets it. And what I've always loved I know I'm introducing you, but I I'll get to me, don't worry but what I've always loved about Karinda is her heart. She is so genuine and so empathetic in a way that she just wants to give value to everyone that she meets and you can't stop her from doing it. She just wants to do it, and so it's so awesome that she's in our industry and that you know that you guys, you know, have found her, been hanging out with her for a long time and really, you know, I can't remember like how our ships kind of passed and we met each other. It was some time ago, but no, you know, for me, let's see, I've been in the industry about 17 years or so, so I've had my own portrait studio specialized in weddings. To start, video, actually, not even photography.

Speaker 2:

I did not know that.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I started the video company we were this makes me sound like super old, but we were one of the first in the area to offer high definition wedding videography. Like that was our thing before. We knew anything about anything like we're like people are gonna want this right, and now it's like you know, one zillion K resolution, you know it's a whole thing, but at the time it was low res and then we were filming with high def cameras. So, anyways, fast forward. We quickly added photography. We were doing about 50 to 70 weddings a summer, so I had a whole team of photographers on staff and it was just living, eating and breathing weddings for many, many years. We've now kind of restructured that a little bit.

Speaker 3:

As Karinda alluded to, I have a handful of other ventures, one of those being our National Canvassing Company, which it's been around for over 50 years, and we create museum quality canvases for photographers, and so we are, you know, specific to just working with you guys, and so I'm sure we might talk a little bit more about that. And then, of course, I do some coaching and some real estate stuff and blah, blah, blah. There's a handful of other things, but that's me, that's what makes up most of most of my day. So does that work?

Speaker 2:

I love that. So I was thinking about that. I signed up for a Guild Canvas account like a long time before I actually sold guilds, because I looked at the pricing and I was like there's no way my clients will buy these. And now I'm like the biggest cheerleader of everybody should sell guilds. Like you will make so much money selling guilds. And so I really like that was before I did all the mindset work. And then I did the mindset work and got over my fear around money and all that stuff and then I was like, okay, I'm doing this. And then I think I met you at Imaging in Nashville maybe.

Speaker 3:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

For the first time. So Tavis was my business coach for a little bit and we worked together and he was on the journey when I was doing crazy stuff that I'm sure he was hearing me and being like what is this girl doing? She's insane.

Speaker 3:

I never thought that out loud, no, just kidding.

Speaker 2:

But I think Tavis is one of the few people that I think his brain works very similar to mine where his capacity to do stuff is a lot and he has a lot of irons in the fire and I definitely admire his ability to manage all the irons in the fire and do them all so well. So I really appreciate that about all the things he does and his perspective and having a portrait business and having the canvas company and all of these other things. So let's talk a little bit about wall art products.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I'm going to ask you one question. That's going to be a loaded question. If somebody is sitting here listening to this today and they're like I think I want to sell products, I have no idea where to start. What would your one biggest piece of advice be?

Speaker 3:

Oh man, one, just one piece of advice. Well, one biggest piece of advice be, oh man, one, just one piece of advice. Well, in short, it is we need to do that. That's the advice is is to find a path to do it. But what I'd say is is to that photographer like I said, I started this journey 17 years ago and I'm still a practitioner. I still, you know, do families, extended families and seniors and all that good stuff, right? And I remember that same thing that when I entered the industry, it was the collision of film and digital and it was still raw and real, and I didn't know what. I didn't know, of course, but I didn't know, like, what the first step was. I didn't.

Speaker 3:

So it seems so overwhelming, and so I want you guys if that's like the feeling, like whenever you just heard say, oh, we're going to talk about products, and like your mind just started to want it like, come back because, like, that is a totally, you know, fear of the unknown is one of the most common fears that we have as humans, and I think that, like, when it comes to, you know, products, there's so many options, there's so many depths, and even when you say products, you're like I don't want that, you know, products, there's so many options, there's so many depths. And even when you say products, you're like I don't want that, you know. And so we've kind of programmed ourselves to like to push away and say, oh well, well, I'm just going to only then, you know, do digital, because that's simpler, it's a better business model. We've convinced ourselves of some of these things, and what we discover down the road, down journey, is that it's because of our fear of the unknown that we just stayed in our comfortable little bubble with what we thought was work. And I think that, as we just have a little self-awareness and that's what it took for me to sit back and luckily I was surrounded by some incredible mentors and if you're listening to this, you are too. You're listening to Corinda so you're surrounded by these voices that are going to guide you somewhere that is not going to hurt you, that is not going to make things harder. It's going to actually relieve a lot of pain. And ultimately, when we all became photographers, we didn't realize that we were also becoming business owners. We did it.

Speaker 3:

Most likely the most common story here is because we love the artistry that we create, we love the interaction with the client or the subject matter, like that was the first love. It wasn't. I love business, let's start a photography company, right, and that wasn't. It's never that way, and so because of that, we have to then say, okay, but there are now elements of this in order for me to still continue to do the things that I love that fill my cup. It's a phrase I love things that you know when you're done, you're like, ah, that was satisfying.

Speaker 3:

We do have to dip our toes in the water of things that maybe we don't feel a skill that we don't feel as skilled at, we don't feel as confident in, and so I'm excited for Brenda and I to have this conversation of a journey of how do we start offering wall art products. And then, for those of you that are listening that do already offer wall art products, there is very specific things that we have learned over the years to say well, how do we navigate what it is that we are currently offering to? And so this really is from. You know, our conversation here is for the I won't say beginner, but for the individual that has yet taken the leap into offering products, and then for those that have been offering products, but kind of feel a little stagnant, a little. Yeah, it just doesn't really, you know, it doesn't seem as fun or as exciting. It just kind of seems like, well, because this is what I was told to do and we want to get you away from that. We want to get you something that you can't stop talking about.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, can I bring up one of the most common things I hear people saying at this point when we talk about this conversation is in the back of their head. I know that people who are listening to this are thinking this right now of my clients don't want products, my clients just want the digitals. And I always say, well, that's because you haven't asked them the right question. But you haven't asked them the right question in the right way, because it's subtle little nuances of the way we say things and the way we ask things that get us to the end result. But also in that same manner, that's where selling starts is just asking your clients the right questions. So for anyone who's listening to this, it's like I don't think my clients want this. What would you say to them?

Speaker 3:

You know, it's hard because we are hearing things from our clients that seem genuine and seem like no.

Speaker 3:

My clients, literally, are telling me they just want the digital images, right, and I think that we have to make sure that we understand why we're even existing and why that client's even in front of us. And that reason is is because that client has a problem. They have a very distinct problem, sometimes even a unique problem, and so maybe it's a family portrait session, right? They're recognizing that the season of life that they're in is not going to repeat again and they're headed to the next season. Whether they can even articulate it the way I just did, that's what they feel and in their mind, as far as their education has brought them in terms of past experiences and what they see and observe, and all that is that a digital image is the total solution. They don't know any better. So I love to use other industry examples, because I think that we get stuck in our own industry and we end up just bouncing around the walls in there and we can't make sense of it. And so my favorite industry or experience that we have likely all had or seen someone have is a doctor's experience, and so when people go to the doctor, why do they even call the doctor's office? Right, there's some sort of symptom, there's a pain, there's an ache, there's a cough, there's something that's off. You feel different than you did the day before and it doesn't feel right. Your quality of life is changing. There's a problem. They may be able to explain it. They may not be able to explain it, right. And so, in their minds, you know, what do we? First do we get on like, well, what are my symptoms? And then it tells you, ah, you're dying of seven cancers and you know, like, all this stuff, right, so we have all that. But what we do is we go to that doctor. This doctor is a specialist, right, meaning that, like, they've spent the majority of their life learning and continue to learn to be able to help those that are in pain or discomfort and need a higher quality of life when it comes to their body and even their mind, in some cases, right. And so when we walk into that doctor's office, we probably did what we probably, in our own mind, was like, well, I know, I've been taking Advil to mask the pain and you know the Advil was. I mean, it's great, but like you know, the pain comes back every four hours, it's like you know. So then I switched to that and Tylenol, and I'm just jumping back and forth between drugs and you know all this stuff. And then, and so the doctor's just like, yeah, in your mind, with what you understand about what's going on, that's how you think it should be treated. And so what does the doctor do? The doctor does, and Corinne alluded to this.

Speaker 3:

The doctor begins to ask questions around the pain, right, well, when you move this way, what does that feel like when you do this activity? What does that feel like when you take a deep breath? What do I hear? What do I see when I look in your ears? They begin to investigate through questions and through observation. And then, at the end of that, what do they do as a specialist? They give their expert opinion on what they would recommend that will enhance your quality of life.

Speaker 3:

And through that process, if they're a good doctor, they've built trust with you, they've built desire. So you want you really want a better quality of life because they've alluded to have you always had this pain I have. Did you know there might be a path to get rid of that? Really, I've never thought about it that way. And then they add logic. It makes sense for you to take whatever it is that they're going to prescribe whether that's exercise, diet, change, you know, medicine surgeries, whatever it is because they've identified and put them in the expert chair and they've done all those things.

Speaker 3:

We're now willing to say let's do this. And so, yeah, to that photographer that is stuck my clients just want the digital images. The answer is absolutely, and they'll never stop only asking for the digital images. There's nothing we can do or say to make that completely go away. It is now ingrained in our culture and so until a new disruptive technology comes along, that is going to be, in the client's mind, the total solution. But we need to think like specialists, right? We need to talk to that patient, that client, and ask around the problems.

Speaker 3:

And when I say that it's not like, let me show you all this wall art. A doctor doesn't ever just open up his coat and say here's all the prescriptions, pick one. He asks a lot of questions about the paint. What's bringing you in today? Why now? Why are you doing portraits now? What are you feeling? Susie is, you know? I just feel like she's getting older, absolutely. What age is she? She's nine. Did you know that? Between ages eight and 12, that's the original coming of age? And so I love that you're prioritizing, recognizing that the kind of magic and wonder in her eye is going to be different as we move forward, and I love that you're intentionally wanting to capture that right now with your daughter. Tell me, what do you see? What lights up her world? What does she get excited about? What does she daydream about? And so you see how.

Speaker 3:

I'm not talking about products, I'm not talking about canvases, I'm not talking about albums or anything like that.

Speaker 3:

I'm talking about their problem. More they are absolutely convinced that you, the photographer, us, the photographer, knows what their problem is, the more likely it is that they are going to be willing to take the recommendation of saying now, here's what it means to have your value system on display. This isn't just to take away the pain for a few hours. This is for you to always walk by and your eye catches it and it begins to draw you in and you're brought back to that season of that magic with Susie and all these different things, right, and then that thought is gonna force you to say I wanna see more, and that's when you go grab that album because you want that other slideshow in your hands from that same season. So you see how I just strung together a couple products there that they're not going to come up with that on their own because, again, they just already have the solution in their own head. So, karinda, what do you think? So, as I'm talking about that, does stuff jump out? Does that kind of feel, is that how?

Speaker 2:

it's all yeah, and I think like something really important that you showed there is number one selling and offering products is not just a sales thing, it's not just a making money thing. It's a caring about people and wanting to get to know people. And I think that there are very few situations with businesses nowadays where you interact with the business and the business actually cares about you and acts like they give two craps about you. To be honest with you, like I feel like most businesses act like they could care less. And when somebody contacts a photographer and the photographer says, hey, I want to get to know you, you show a genuine interest out of your heart because you're a good person and the person, and you show that you care about them. That goes further than a lot of things in this world nowadays. And by showing that you care and getting to know them, they're like man, this photographer cares and they want to know what's best for me and they want to know what I value in life. And I think this goes back to like I talk a lot about, like your why and understanding on a deeper level what it is and what matters to you, which also allows you to attract those clients. So when you have those conversations with those clients that come in, it feels natural.

Speaker 2:

One of my coaching clients she was like. I just did a podcast interview with her the other day and she said I was so freaking scared to pick up the phone. I did not want to pick up the phone and talk with potential clients. And she's like I've been in business for 10 years with clients having to pick up the phone and Corinda was like do it, do it, do it. And then I finally did it and I realized why it was so important. It wasn't only selling, it was also building that relationship which results in the sale, but in such a non sleazy way, right. So I think that's really important to remember. It's a connection and a journey with a client and getting to know them, not just a sales pitch.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I love these two words around what you just said. And this is like if you don't have scripts, when you're booking a client or talking with a client, you know that's fine. If you have rough guidelines, you're like I know what I'm gonna say. Well, these two things keep you on track. And it's the first word is curiosity and the second word is connection, and Corinda mentioned that second word. And so if you enter into a conversation with a client, you have curiosity and the willingness and wanting to connect with them the whole conversation. Because when you ask a question to someone and you're genuinely curious genuinely, tell me about Susan, tell me about your horse, tell me about your pet, tell me about your family, you know relationships and you're genuinely curious. And it's in your tone, it's in the energy, it's in the cadence and how you're speaking, all of those things that draws your client in towards you, right. And then that begins the connective piece, where you can begin to relate on saying things and I'm not saying that, like, our clients should be our best friends or whatever, right, or that it's like you know we're, we're courting to see if we can be friends, no, but you need to, like, get at a level to where you can genuinely connect with them, even if and so here's what's interesting Even if you feel like you can't really relate to your client.

Speaker 3:

I don't understand. You just pulled up in a Lamborghini, I have a used Honda, you know, like the different, different life experiences, different even different moral values and stuff. What you want to find is is that the common ground that you're on because they're sitting in front of you, they're not sitting in front of you because you have the same moral, you know fibers, or you are in the same neighborhood, you know, or all those things, or your kids go to the same school. That's not why they're always sitting in front of you. They're sitting in front of you because they have a problem and they saw you as a potential way to solve that, and so you're going to find that curiosity and connection around that piece. So try not to disqualify yourself if you're just like, but I just don't get my clients, they're not where I'm at, they're not my ideal client Like, hey, every client's an ideal client, you know, they're all going through a season. We just have to get them to the point to where they're ready to see the value in what it is that we're doing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So then that turns the question of how do you like tell a client like this piece of wall art or this product cost this much money, and in your head you're thinking, holy crap, that's a lot of money. What do you say to those people that are like, okay, I get it. I understand how you're saying like the wall art.

Speaker 3:

It's a conversation that happens, but still, that's a big investment. What would you say to that? Okay, so what we're, what we're entering into this, this is a 10 hour podcast, right, or is it? No, I, I'm, I'm going to help you guys out there. So whenever we're doing price conditioning, right, we're saying, okay, now we have the client, we have to introduce price, and I think maybe the context matters. So maybe, let's say, this is a booking call, someone inquired and you're on the phone with them. I think that's a common experience that most people have had or continue to have.

Speaker 3:

There are a couple of things colliding. The first thing colliding is the market value for photography in your area. Now, what I mean by that is is if there were a poll to go out in your area and everyone were to write down a number of what they think a photographer or a photography experience would cost, right, some will put a 100, some will put 300, 500, 800, 2,000, 1,000, what? So there's gonna be that, but there's gonna be this 80% like solid in the middle. That's gonna be what's called what the market can bear, Meaning. It's the without any additional value being built. It's the assumed value of what something should cost, right? So if I were to tell you you know, a gallon of milk costs XYZ, you will not be shocked if really it's the most common pricing that you've seen for milk. But if I were to say that milk costs $40, you'd be like timeout, I'm missing something. You sound a little crazy because that's you know. I don't get it. And so in again in our client's mind we have to recognize there is a what the market compare number, meaning that this is the number that they're likely to move forward in an experience with us without any additional value being built. Now what then becomes really important for us is building enough value so that when we begin to condition them on price, what they think it should cost and the number you just said are equal, right. So is this audio only or video?

Speaker 3:

I talk with my hands, so we'll have to be a little behind the scene, but we want to make sure that what the price in their head, of what they now think it is, after you've built some value, and the price you just said that those are closer together. Because if they're not, if you say $10,000 on the phone and they're still thinking it's at most worth $800, then that creates what's called a logical fallacy, meaning that it won't make sense for them. What you just said doesn't make sense. You haven't heard anything like that. There's no way for them to rationalize in it, to go forward with it, and so their desire fizzles a little bit. Their trust that we've been building the trust starts to go a little bit too, because they're just like this is catching me off guard.

Speaker 3:

So when we're on the phone, we have to recognize that we can only build so much financial value with what it is that we're doing, right. And when we start to talk about products, we do want to give a range of pricing. But the conditioning that we give on the phone is so important Knowing that they're not in our studio, they're not in front of our camera. We haven't, like, had that interaction that can build so much value, so much quicker than someone you know making spaghetti while they're on the phone with you, right? You know we only have so much of their attention, and so we want to set our pricing and our products up in a way so that we can introduce a price to them on the phone. That's like based off of what we just talked about and based off the fact that you I firmly believe and trust that you can solve my problem. I think I'm willing to listen to those solutions, but right now, unpacking it to so if you feel like you're talking about products on on a booking call for like more than three minutes, got to get that bad boy down. We got to get it down because, again in their mind, their total solution to it is not a product yet.

Speaker 3:

And so now to further answer Chris's question. Well, how do you then start building that value? Well, there's a couple things that I think play a huge role in it, and it's the products you offer, and is one of them. Another one is your passion for that product right, and your ability for there to be an additional problem created with that client. So that's going to be your sales ability, that's going to be your understanding of their real needs and being able to convey that back to them so they understand it. And so you're hanging out with Corinda, so you're learning these things Right. And so you know that that first thing that we talked about right Is when we what was my first one? My brain just went to another place. Three things, and they all go, no, but the passion. And so I just had the hamster had to catch up with the wheel there.

Speaker 3:

And so the passion when we're offering a product, it has to be something that we're passionate about. And so if we're offering things because someone just said, oh, you should offer that, that's just where you got to have an option for this. You have to fill that gap, that void, but we don't really care about it. That is, the client picks up on that. I mean, we've all been in a room before that you're listening to a conversation across the room and someone's just like excited and passionately speaking about it and you can't really hear what they're saying. But even just their body language you're just like what are they saying? It's so such a like a moth to a light, right, it's like I gotta know what they're talking about. And so passion sells. And so when you're offering a product, you wanna make sure that whatever it is that you're selling you are passionate about, because if you're not, that client's going to pick up on it, they're not going to want it, they're not going to design, you know all of those things. And so if that means that you have a very slim product line, that's perfect, because it's hard to be passionate about. You know 35 different options for the wall.

Speaker 3:

It's easy to say this is the thing, and I don't. Even the other stuff is like okay, neat, but like this is the thing and your clients are going to want that over and over, right? The next is is it's where prestige has the ability to be created with the client or to have some value. So there's a certain amount of emotional value and I'm talking about financial emotional value that comes with a client to an experience. So there's a maximum to that. Like a client will only spend this much because they emotionally need that solution. Right, there is an end to that and at some point something has to get picked up and create prestige.

Speaker 3:

And now, again, there's a lot of clients that are very like. They're 80% emotional, but every client has a little bit of the prestige. And some clients are split down the middle 50-50. Some clients are they're just like yeah, that's my family, that's neat, but what is it? All you know and so, but more commonly, we're going to have more emotional clients, but we have to offer something that's prestige.

Speaker 3:

And so when we are going down that journey, things that are prestigious and again, throw this into google, throw it into ai, whatever, a lot of things that are around. This idea of prestigious things are limited opportunities, right. Availability is slim. Uniqueness, quality of you know the build quality, the materials used, what it looks like, what it makes other people feel when they're around that thing, right? So if it's a watch or a vehicle or a house or a wall, you know whatever it is, and so all of those things elicit a certain prestige within the individual that made that purchasing choice, right. And so there's an entire ecosystem in especially American culture. But just even I mean I don't know if you've ever been to the French Riviera, but across the globe there's, like you know, $100 million yachts just lined up out there, and they're not all from America. And so we're talking, everyone has that prestige where they've justified $100 million yacht in their minds. Now, let's not get too far into rainbow land here Coming back. So that means that you want to pick a product that has that prestigious value.

Speaker 3:

One thing that I think has been unique, and even in my own studio, when I changed to and this isn't a Guild commercial, but when I changed to the canvassing that I offer in my studio and of course, that we create is that it's not accessible to the client at all. The client can't drive down the road and get this piece made. The client can't call anyone else and get it made. They can't call us and get it made. We only work with professional photographers, and when I was just the photographer before I had any glimmer of a thought that I would have anything to do with this company, with Guild Canvas. When I was a photographer, I recognized that and I realized, wow, this is important. And so it does two things. And this is Karinda. I love this. I've been talking forever, so straight up, interrupt me.

Speaker 3:

If you got something, it does two things. When you offer something that's not accessible to the client, it increases prestige because they have to work with a professional to get it. In every industry there's a version of this. You go to a mechanic. They can get parts you can't get. They can get chemicals that you can't get. You can. You know, a doctor can get stuff you can't get. And you know, across the board, when you work with the professional specialists, they have access to things that the consumer does not have access to. Right, that is the fact. And so for our industry, finding products that the consumer has no access to or a seemingly don't have access to, like there's nothing comparable to it. Right, that's going to increase the value and the prestige in their mind. It's also going to create a long tail of you building your brand over time, meaning that for every piece that you have and Karinda has a lot of these I've seen a lot of canvases come through, for every canvas that is up in a client's home when they want to get another portrait done and they're like gosh, that is just so beautiful, I want it to match.

Speaker 3:

I want the same quality experience that I had last time. They're more likely to come back to you. It also is a calling card, it's a commercial, because any friend, sister, mother that walks into that house, they're going to immediately know boom, that's Corinda's work. Not just by the subject matter but by the physical medium. They're going to be like oh, that's Corinda's work, right. And so when we offer a product, it matters because we have to have prestige. The other piece is is who else has got it? So in my case, one of the things that was great is we've made canvases for past presidents, celebrities. They are in the halls of some of the most important buildings in the United States, and so when a client hears that, they're just like, wow, I'm making the same choice that a past president has made. It was historic. Well, I won't tell you what president, but for the most part, presidents make good, thoughtful decisions. It's not a political conversation, but there is some prestige that's built with that Right and that's and that's what we're after.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 3:

Action prestige what we offer.

Speaker 2:

You said something earlier when you were talking about and this is a rewind, but we'll get back to the product thing you said something about you have to build the value in the conversation with the client, so that way, when you say the price, it meets the value of what you're providing. And the coolest thing that happens, I think, at the end of a call with a client is when I share my pricing and they go. That's all. I thought it was going to be so much more after you told me all the things you do and you're like yes, I've built that value.

Speaker 3:

You're like oh, that's a higher number.

Speaker 2:

Right, and like, we know that the value and that number comes from the wall art and the products. At the end of the day, right, that's where I make, I don't know. 95% of my income comes from the products.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

But the value that we build up to them really doesn't have a lot to do with the product in some weird way, because they don't have the concept of what the value of the product is quite yet when they're really early on in the process. So I loved how you said that. Now, when you were talking about the products, you said it has to be something you love and you're excited about. That is so important, and I feel like you are calling me out to some extent because I, I know Stop. So I, you know, I feel this and this is so important because it's funny. I offer multiple wall art options. Tavis is definitely a big fan of selling one wall art option and having one really beautiful thing that you're known for, and I do have a couple of options. Now, what's really funny is when I sell, I'm like here is our canvas. It is blah, blah, blah, blah. It's amazing. Look at it, touch it, feel it. I'm just obsessed with them. They're all over my house. Oh, by the way, we have this. Oh, yeah, we have this too. So I am really careful when I talk about my products to talk up the product that I love and I you should buy this, and then when they don't choose what I want them to choose, I'm like that kind of sucked, but okay, it's what they really wanted. So I feel that and I always say, like I will be transparent on the podcast and share my things that I know I'm doing wrong, that I shouldn't be doing, but that level of excitement is so important.

Speaker 2:

And what I've noticed with my coaching clients is that they put guilds on their price list and they're like I want to do this. Corinda says this is going to be great, my clients are going to love it, it'll help my sales go up. And then they get their first sample and I get a message from them and they're like my guild came in, corinda, this is so cool in real life. Like you didn't tell me it was this cool in real life. And then they take it to their first event or they show a client for the first time and they're like my client freaked out when they saw this because they have never seen anything like this before. And I think that's such an important point of this whole situation too is you have to love it and it has to be something people are not used to seeing, which is why I always tell people.

Speaker 2:

I'm like don't sell luster prints that are just look like something you're used to seeing. Sell a print on a fine art paper or sell a matte paper or something that when people see it they go, wow, I've never seen anything like this before. This isn't like what those other photographers do. Oh, that's my favorite line this isn't what the other photographers do. And then I also loved how you talked about the prestige of it, because in people's brains, no matter how bad we want to fight it, people want the nicest thing. Like people subconsciously strive for that exclusive, prestigious thing. And although every time I talk about this I feel so like I feel kind of hoity-toity saying it, but it's the truth. I always say this If you look at like the statistics of the people that shop at luxury stores people that shop at luxury stores a big percentage of their market is like average middle class people that are shopping at luxury brands.

Speaker 3:

And they really probably shouldn't be there.

Speaker 2:

They shouldn't be there. It's a whole other conversation.

Speaker 3:

Poor financial decisions, but you know, it's all good.

Speaker 2:

Like, when you walk into the Louis Vuitton store, they're not like do you make half a million dollars a year Because in order to buy our bags? And if you're putting this on a credit card and going into debt, we aren't going to accept your business, right, right, it's the people that can't afford the luxury stuff that actually spend the money on the luxury stuff. So if you're sitting there saying I don't have the clientele, or where I live, people won't buy this, or the economy where I live, I think that's mostly a story you're telling yourself and it's not actually the truth. And you're not going to know if that's the truth until you put the luxury products on your price list or you start offering the wall art and you start offering it the right way, and then you're going to prove yourself wrong. So I always say if you're afraid to offer it or you're afraid to do it, just do it.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And let the process prove you wrong, because it will, and then you'll be addicted.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it is, yeah, it definitely. Well, you know, and just over the years, just seeing studios transformed by offering something they're passionate about and by offering something that has the ability to draw prestige out of the client, it's what transformed my portrait studio before I had anything to do with Guild Canvas, and so, you know, that was one of the things that drew me in to say our industry needs to make sure this sticks around. It needs to be, you know, it needs to continue to be elevated.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, okay. So here's a loaded question. If someone is out there and they're like I want to start selling products, but I don't know where to start, I don't know what I should be looking for, like where does this process even begin? What advice would you give to them?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, if they don't know where to start or what they're looking for, you know well. First of all, if they're listening to this podcast, like, like, you know you're their homie and so they. They already have a great resource for, for product recommendations. You know, from that standpoint, finding what you're passionate about is very much so experiential, meaning that, like you just said it, when people get a canvas in their hands, it's different than like, oh, I saw your website, I went to, you know, watch the video, or something like that. Or I heard Tavis talk about it on a podcast. You know, it's when you, when it's in your hand, it's like click, click, click. And then all of a sudden you're like I can feel it, I can smell it, I can see it, I can. You know, like the the, it's very, very, very much a different experience and that oftentimes can trigger a passion that you may not even know, like the amount of times that someone has received a canvas and said I, they send us a video of them in tears, like, literally, like coming down their face, and because they didn't know they would have a reaction to their art presented in a way that could be in a museum, right, and they're like wow. And so, first of all, if you've never printed your stuff, step one, just go print it, print it down the road or something like that, but then find a prestigious option. But I mean, you got gotta see it, not on Instagram, not on your phone. You, I mean, you gotta really see your art, it will.

Speaker 3:

Actually, when I started doing a lot of stuff for the wall, it changed the way I photograph. My brain does not photograph for Instagram, it doesn't it literally everything I do it it is for the wall, you know, or for the storytelling aspect that might be in an album or in an arrangement that goes on the wall. Like that's how my brain is wired up and I know when I got the one, I'm like that's a contender for the wall. You know high percentile. So I think that you know, yeah, when you're navigating, okay, what products to offer, first of all really be super careful offering a bunch of products because you think the client needs variety. So here's the thing, as much as right now. So, where you're sitting, as much as, like some of the things I've said or kind of said, you're just like, oh, that's the first time I've heard that, or I haven't heard it say it saying that way, like we are not experts in terms of us as photographers at certain stages in our business, we are not experts in products, right, we get to a point where we know a lot about it and we get really passionate and we can really dive in and that overflows to the client. But ultimately our clients, they are not experts in products either.

Speaker 3:

So when you offer variety to a client and you say, well, I have it printed on this and mounted on that and put on this, you know, whatever they. To a client and you say, well, I have it printed on this and mounted on that and put on this, you know, whatever, they will not know how to navigate, that they will go to their default of what they are an expert in. What are they? An expert in? Money, right, so they're going to go. Well, because I can't see the difference between those. I'm going to go with the cheaper option because that, when I came in here, a digital image solved my problem. I didn't even know I was going to be doing this, but now I get it. This is a cool idea, let's do it.

Speaker 3:

But I'm not an expert in metal versus acrylic, versus canvas, versus paper, versus, you know cotton, you know whatever you know, like we're, they're not experts in that and they don't know.

Speaker 3:

We could go through the rap sheet. Well, here's this one, and you know, have a 30, 40 minute conversation about each product if we want it, but still they have no desire to be an expert on it. So that's why, for me and for you, I would encourage you to think in terms of if we are supposed to be the expert for them. They come to us as an expert. We should curate what it is that they experience that we offer when it comes to products, meaning that if we offer it, it's for a very specific reason. Right, it's not a sales strategy within our studio. It's a specific logical reason why we're offering it and that's what we share with them when they put it in their home. Right, because they will not resonate with any logic between this medium versus that medium. They will resonate with why this solves a problem that this one doesn't solve, and then the money begins to not create again that logical fallacy between the two.

Speaker 2:

Right. And I think that comes back to like we are our clients' guides and this is why doing in-person sales and sitting down and sorting through their photos and making recommendations on what size wall art and what finish wall art and, even further, what frame goes on their work. Because and I think this is something that I definitely learned from Tavis we had this conversation probably like a year and a half ago. I was like I just don't like them. They frustrate me. I get so annoyed selling them. And he's like Karinda, just tell your clients what. They frustrate me, I get so annoyed selling them. And he's like Corinda, just tell your clients what frame they need to have. You are in charge here. The frame is an extension of your work. You should be deciding for them.

Speaker 2:

And I was like duh, I'm doing that and everything else, like I don't let my clients pick what material goes on their album. I, you know, ask a couple questions, get to know what they like, I know their style and I say I think that this option will be best for your cover. I say I think these images will be best for your wall and nine times out of 10, my client buys the pictures that I suggest for their wall anyway. So why was there this one thing that I was leaving in their court? So I would say to everyone that's listening, it's just you're in charge here, you're the expert.

Speaker 2:

Your client doesn't. And right now you might feel like you're an imposter and you don't know either. But just do it and you will get better. I am much better at it now than I was 13 years ago when I started my business. Right, just work at it and put on your big girl panties or your big boy panties and be like I am the expert, I know what I'm doing, and then save the panic attack for after the phone call's done and you've made some money and they get their portrait on their wall. Because that is definitely a struggle for, I think, a lot of people.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, and I think that that that again, that hesitation, is why I don't know how to do that. I don't know, you know. So you don't have to be a frame expert. You don't have to be a wall art expert or an album expert or any of these things. You do need to, just like in photography, with your craft. You maybe went to a school or you go to conferences or you're learning online and you're out there photographing so that you can create beautiful portraits. So like, don't not make the effort to learn more about these things, because it is a part of as a total expert. We do need to learn these things. You know we can't just create mediocre art. We need to keep learning and growing in that area also. But when it comes to wall art, sometimes, just like with photography, you kind of just need to get out there and push the button. You kind of just need to get out there and say and I'll take care of that frame and I'll select the frame for you, just like. Just like I said, and I learned that years ago, cause I remember a client was choosing between this smorgasbord of frame options and I'm like, and then they start looking at something. I'm like, oh, that clash is so bad I can't eat, please don't pick that. And they pick it and I'm just like you know, and I'm just like they picked it for some random reason, some past, nothing to do with any art standards whatsoever, and so I'm just like nope, nope, nope, not anymore. I am going to select the frame and if they have some questions about it because again I'm not trying to like you know, like hey, you're coming this way, you know, strong, arm them. But I am persuading them to say, strongly, consider this frame, and here's why and if they have a thought to say, well, here's a secondary options One, two, three options for a client when it comes to framing, chef's kiss, perfect. They do not need a whole board. Now, you need those options so that you know if you need to match a gold or a silver or a brown, or you know a textural repetition that's happening between the art and the frame, that that you know again extends out into that. You know you need those options, but they don't need those options.

Speaker 3:

It reminds me of a study that was done a while back. So they're doing this study with ice cream and they have this ice cream shop. I won't say names, but they offer you know 50 some odd flavors of ice cream. And then they have this other ice cream shop that they just offer vanilla and chocolate. And they had discovered it through getting them all wired up and through some questionnaire stuff, that they could somehow put a pinpoint on their level of happiness or their dissatisfaction with those experiences. So they had a bunch of people go to this multiple ice cream place and they go through, they eat it, and then they go and they have vanilla and chocolate. And through that study they learned that everyone that went through the 50 some odd flavors of option that there was always some sort of discontent because they were like well, I chose this one because I mean, I really wasn't sure what I needed to choose or what to choose. There were so many options. They all looked good, I think I probably.

Speaker 3:

And while they're eating their ice cream they're thinking about maybe another ice cream that they should have picked instead of that. Well, maybe this won't be. I mean, this is good but maybe that wasn't going to be better. And they go back and forth and they're measuring this and they're just like man, their satisfaction. I mean there's so much doubt and stuff. They're not an ice cream expert, they're not like a palate expert in terms of like what our taste buds needs. And then they went and they measure the people that had vanilla and chocolate, their satisfaction, their ability to just be fully present with just that bowl of chocolate. I just love this, you know, the only other option was vanilla. I can get that next time if I want, but I might just get this again. This is good, right, and so specializing in the best chocolate and the best vanilla instead of feeling like we have to be an ice cream shop with 50 flavors again, it's just going to create some confusion for the client and their satisfaction at the end of the experience will be less.

Speaker 2:

I love it. I always say like three options max. Like if you get over three options, you were definitely overwhelming people. And really there are certain things where you don't need options, like if you can avoid options. Like even talk to people and they're like what do you think about my session fees? And I'm like why do you have four different session fees? Can we just make them all the same? Would you have the same end result at the end of the day and have less confusion? Explaining the differences and they always are like I've never thought about that and I always say like it's easy from the outside, looking in, to be like you're overcomplicating things. There's too many. It's easier to look at someone else and say that than it is to sometimes do it to yourself. So sometimes you need somebody to like walk up to you and be like this is overwhelming, this is confusing. Cut it down. Just get rid of all the variety. Just focus on a few good things or one good thing.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. So, corinda, early on in our conversation we had talked about you know how do we build value in wall art? You know how do we? I have a client. They don't want wall art, they just want the digitals. And if it's okay, I have this beautiful story that I like to tell around. A little kind of analogy. Do we have time for that?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, good it's. I mean it's a quick story, but if we're like getting towards the end, we just never, but no. And so there's this idea. We'd already talked about identifying the problem with the client, right? So there's a fleeting season of some sort. Their kids are growing up, their horse is aging out, the horse just won something, or whatever. The kid's graduating. All these different seasons that trigger this, oh, I need this taken right. So that's their problem, their initial problem, right, so that's their problem, their initial problem. The wall art problem actually becomes a potential solution after we've had a chance to to build some value into that. And so this is an analogy that I like to use, that I think can resonate with all of us that have ever traveled.

Speaker 3:

We're going to go, karinda and I, we're going to go to a conference. We're going to fly out together. So we're headed to the airport, but we're doing this conference and, and let's say, I think it was around 1960. So we're going to be in our time machine. We're going back, we're at the airport, 1960, and we have our luggage with us, Right. And so we're heaving and ho, there's no wheels, there's no anything, right. So we're lifting our luggage. We have everything we need for this conference. We're excited and fun to go on the trip, but on the way to our gate we're like, okay, we got to sit down and rest for a second. These suckers are heavy. So we're sitting there and we're resting, we're hanging out, we're talking and we think we have everything that we need to go on our trip. We think that you know, hey, I got my suitcase, it's all packed up, I have all this stuff, I'm taking everything.

Speaker 3:

And then what do we see, corinna? We look over to our right and then here comes this guy and he's cruising down the Concord with wheels on his suitcase. What is that guy doing? He's not even broken a sweat. Look at us. We're drenched from carrying our bags and he's just easily rolling. He has a coffee in the other hand, you know, and he's just loving life. And then, all of a sudden, we're just like but what is that? What is it that's enhanced his life and his experience so much? It's the wheels, wheels on the suitcase. That's all it was was to look over and say I can see it so clearly, my experience me and Corinda's experience going, we would be able to pack more things that we want for this conference. We would do it with ease and it would just roll behind us as we sipped on our coffee. We wouldn't have to stop and rest, right, our experience would be better with wheels. So I take that analogy because that's a real life thing that happens.

Speaker 3:

Right, there was not a lot of marketing done around suitcase wheels. All it took was people to go to the airport with wheels and everyone that didn't have wheels wanted wheels. That's what it took. That's how fast that went right Billion dollar invention.

Speaker 3:

And so in our photography studios we need to look at our products as wheels, in the sense that we know they did not look us up and say I'm here because I want a canvas, that's why I came. No, no, no, no, no. That's not the first reason why they came right. That's the second reason. That's one of the wheels. Oh, I'm here just for an album. Again, that's a wheel.

Speaker 3:

And so what we need to do is is, when we're sharing our products with our clients, we're showing them how this can affect their life in a meaningful way, just like a wheel did in an airplane. And when we have that concept in our minds, then all of a sudden well, tavis, what questions do you ask. You know there's some questions and stuff out there. There's some good stuff you could say, but ultimately the concept is what we have to grasp, because if we grasp the concept, we can become much more, you know, flexible with how we communicate with every client. One client may not see wall art in the same way that another client does, so you may have a different question for them, but at the end of the day, all of the questions are around and here is how your life will be enhanced, because you are considering to make this choice of having your wall art on display, having your value systems on display in your home.

Speaker 3:

So I wanted to share that with you guys, because some people are like I don't know where to start. I don't know what the point is, and it's because digital images really do solve their problem, just like Corinda and I, just not having wheels we did, could get our stuff to that conference right, but with wheels that experience is way better. And so as humans, especially as Americans, right, and anyone else in different cultures, it is similar, but American cultures like we, literally, whether we like it or not, we're seeking out some sort of innovation in our life, some sort of thing to make it better. This is easier, this is faster, this is. You know, we all have cell phones that are like computers in our pockets now you know where.

Speaker 3:

17 years ago, that wasn't the case, and it's because of our need and our ability to want to do things better, higher quality, more effective, have more time. You know all these things and so take those same reasons why people buy a riding lawnmower versus a push lawnmower, and you know, like all these things, and bring that to your products and say and don't talk about the features of them well, this will last 100 years. Who cares, I'm gonna be dead, right, the benefit is. And then fill in the gaps with all the benefits, how it's going to serve them, the problems they didn't know they had. So I wanted to share that because I think that's a great way for them to remember that.

Speaker 2:

For sure, and I think like this also starts with like walking the walk yourself. Right, I was talking to one of my coaching clients, austin, the other day and he's actually going to be on the podcast and he said this whenever we were chatting on the podcast. He was like I went and got really high quality products printed of my old family, of my wife, of our kids, and he goes once he goes. I was doing it and I was kind of implementing and going as I went, but when I got those portraits on my wall and I started looking at them every day, I realized the difference they could make in my life and it allowed me to speak to them in an entirely new way to my clients, which I thought was so, so important.

Speaker 2:

Like you have to walk the walk.

Speaker 2:

Like I have the canvas of my horse behind my head, I have my family's, my office has some of my work, but it's my personal horse, and then it has other photographers we've had photograph us as skilled canvases and that's what my clients see when they're speaking to me on meetings on Zoom.

Speaker 2:

And we have to walk the walk and we have to showcase those things and we have to believe it in ourselves because, although, yes, we do make money this way, it's a deeper moral obligation that I feel that like. If I don't help people get these portraits on their wall, I know there's something they're missing out on and I know that their life is going to be so much better. And I know that, three years down the road, when I get a random text from a client with a picture of their portrait and they say this makes me so happy every day Thank you for this, corinda I don't think I realize the impact, that it matters and that I know I've lived out my purpose and what I'm supposed to be doing other than just taking portraits, because that's not the whole picture.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, love it, love it. Good stuff. What do you guys think? Everyone's going to offer products now, and those of you that are offering products, we're going to trim it down, not too many options, yeah no-transcript, become a client.

Speaker 3:

Fill that out. Like I said, we don't work with consumers, we only work with studios and professional photographers, and so you'll fill that out. And then, once we've gotten that information, then we'll send you a link to our resource folder that has your pricing and we even give you a ton of marketing material so you can actually offer Guild before you've even placed your first order, which is crazy. And so it's all white labeled and so you know it's, and we have templates in there. You can drop your work into things. I mean it's great. And so you get access to that resource folder and then your first order is 30% off and studio samples are 20%, 30% off, and studio samples are 20% and um, and then yeah, then then really you're, you're off to the races.

Speaker 3:

If you um get stuck, all you have to do is email us Like so, after you've, you shouldn't get stuck on to become a client. It's pretty simple. But if you get stuck with, okay, how do I integrate this product, all that stuff? I also do integration calls where you just hop on my schedule. So, just like the conversation Karinda and I are having now, we just talk for a short time and I can help you integrate Guild into your studio and your product lineup and and even we even talk about pricing and stuff and what prices are right for you and all that good stuff. So there's really like there's no reason why we can't just elevate what it is we're offering for products literally immediately. And that was the whole idea behind it, because I saw what it did in my portrait studio and now, after doing this for many years, I've seen what it's done in studios across the United States and it's just an unfair advantage that you guys have an opportunity to have.

Speaker 3:

And so so yeah, just fill that stuff out. If you get super stuck on anything, then just set up a little a zoom call, a little video meeting with me, and then I'll hold your hand through the rest of it. And if not, then you can just place an order and you're off to the races and you can also go to the Guild Canvas Club. It's a Facebook group, free group. Those are full of that place is full of just people that love Guild, offer Guild, all that stuff. We'll do little, you know, educational things here and there, but really primarily it's a group that is just to post pictures. Hey, which one do I do for a sample. And then you have a ton of photographers that are like do this one, do that one, and so don't get hung up on the little things like that that feel like big things, they're little things, and get yourself in that community and yeah, so you'll be good to go.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I love that and I will say one of the things that I enjoy the most about working with Guild Canvas is I can call and talk to a person when I have a question. That makes me so happy, Like if something comes up, I'm like, let me just call and ask Julie, like hey, I have a question about this. There is something different about working with a small business that is family centered, that everyone who works there loves the product, cares about their clients. If I submit an order and I made an editing mistake, they're going to catch my editing mistake and they're just going to fix it for me.

Speaker 3:

Nine times out of ten. They're like Never do that. They're like hey.

Speaker 2:

Corinda, we fixed this for you.

Speaker 2:

Is this okay?

Speaker 2:

So much like ease in knowing that when I submitted Canvas order, that it's going to be taken care of, that things are going to happen the way they should, that when I go to imaging I can run into the Guild Canvas crew and hang out and they're kind and they're just welcoming and it's more like working with a family business and they are a family-centered business that cares about their photographers and their clients.

Speaker 2:

There is a place for the bigger labs and there's a place for those, but there's also a place in your business for working with businesses that truly care about you. And I will say this and this is my last thing I will say but working with Guild Canvas has shown me that we deserve to work with businesses who care about our success and our progress in our business and that the companies you work with should care about you, because there's a lot of companies that I've worked with for 12 years that don't have a clue who I am and that kind of like. It's not the greatest feeling to be like I've been a loyal supporter and I have sent people your way and I talk about you.

Speaker 2:

You don't even know who I am. You know like it's just different when you start to have these relationships and you see that there's companies out there that you can have relationships with that want you to succeed and care about your success. So that's one of the reasons I love working with the Guild Canvas. That's one of the reasons I love Tavis and Amy, which is his wife, and just the whole crew there, and I encourage you to find your people that are like that, that care about your business as well. So I am so glad I finally got Tavis on the podcast I think we've talked about this for too long.

Speaker 2:

One day we'll do our 10-hour podcast episode. That'll be fun 10-hour podcast episode.

Speaker 3:

That'll be fun.

Speaker 2:

One of the like phone marathon things that people phone in and, yeah, it'll be great, but it was great having you. Thanks for joining us and reach out to Tavis, reach out to me. If y'all have questions. Just offer the products. Do the thing. Don't be scared of it. It's going to be okay, you're going to survive and it's going to have huge results. And one day you're going to message us and be like thank goodness, we listened to that podcast episode, because that's exactly what I needed to hear. So have a great week, guys.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to support the podcast, please make sure you share it on social media or leave a rating and review. As always, you can check out the links and resources in the show notes over at masteryourmindmoneycom. To catch all the latest from me, you can follow me on Instagram at masteryourmindmoney and don't forget to join our free Facebook group Photography Business. Tune Up with Corinda Kay. Thanks again and I'll see you next time.