The Unspoken Trauma of Church Induced Sexual Repression | Ep 58 | Moral Combat

In the thought-provoking Episode 58 of The Moral Combat Podcast, brothers Nathan and Zachary engage in a profound dialogue delving into the intricate topic of sexual repression, a haunting echo of their religious upbringing. Drawing from personal experiences, they unveil moments of intense shame and guilt surrounding their sexuality, shedding light on the profound impact of these experiences. The hosts navigate through biblical verses and teachings that explicitly endorse sexual repression, and explore how this repression reverberated through their romantic relationships and self-identities. This candid conversation serves as a healing process, providing clarity and a platform for self-acceptance in the face of deep-seated sexual guilt, ultimately advocating for a path toward liberation from the shadows of religious trauma.

Moral Combat, hosted by siblings Nathan and Zach Blaustone, is a heartfelt exploration of life's complexities, with a primary focus on healing from religious trauma. Step into their world as they navigate the realms of music production, confront the lingering echoes of religious trauma, and embrace laughter as a universal healer. With each episode, Nathan and Zach weave together their unique perspectives, seasoned with dynamic personalities that make every discussion an engaging adventure. From unraveling the complexities of personal growth to fostering open communication, healing the scars of religious indoctrination, and embracing the unfiltered authenticity of siblinghood, Moral Combat is your passport to thought-provoking conversations, heartfelt insights, and the pure joy of shared moments. Join us in the combat for morality, one conversation at a time.

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0:01

E. C. E. O. Hello. Oh. Mortal Kombat fans. Mortal Kombat fans. And all. Of you from our past that have reached out recently to tell. You. Tell us all that, love. And hello to you too. Hey, because. We never really know who's consistently watching this. And we've run into and talked to a couple of people from our pasts. And so thanks for being here. Thank you. My name is Nathan, and I am Zack. We are siblings and this is the Mortal Kombat podcast where we. Discuss our history. Our current situation and the future of our religious date, the future of religious trauma. Religious trauma. Maybe because as we talk about it here on this podcast, we heal, we grow, and we move the fuck on. Yeah, they say that if you say the F word in the first 10 minutes of your YouTube video, they suppress it. But anyways, welcome, welcome. Welcome. How are you. Doing. Bud? Do not get Nate in there. It's raining outside. It's been raining all day. It's quite beautiful. It's humid here. It's healing. It is healing. How have you been lately? How has your week been? I've been good, man. I'm, as some people know, I've been on disability trying to let my back heal. And I'm going through waves where I'm like, It's getting better. And then it's just really bad. And like, this past this past week, maybe like a week and a half, it's been like the worse it's ever been in a long time. So it's been a little, little destructive. Do you hear that, crackle? Yeah. It's cause you're touching your mike. You think so? I think so. And we on of anyone, any people who actually watch podcast, you'll see that we have a new table in front of us. And so we had to rewire everything. So I don't. Really, I. Would imagine not many people care at all, but for us it's a big deal because we remodeled that pain and it was an. Accident. Yeah. And it's big and it's green. Yay! And then we took. The energy tables. And we put them in the right. Hands. And now we have this little, like, cave. It's just we're just building the studio out to start having interviews in here. So at some point, you're going to able to see a lot more. Yeah. This production studio. Yeah. Zach, You know, your back's been hurting a lot, and sometimes it seems like sometimes the pain. Absorbs all of. The stress. Rancic Pinpoint all of the stress in your life too. You have all these other life is just difficult times. It's fun, it's exciting, you're thriving. But then when the back pain becomes like the focus. It's like, Well, here we are again. It's like repetitive trauma. Yeah. And it's not just like back soreness. That's really what makes it stressful. Is it legit? Feels like like my the bottom end of my spine is being like, pinched, which it is technically, but like, it just doesn't feel like you're back sore. It feels like something is super, super wrong. And then all the doctors are like, You're gonna have to learn how to live with it. And it's like, I don't know if I can live with this pain, but. I don't know. I think it's a good connection to this podcast that it's like some, you know, sometimes you got to live with the pain. Just get your shit together as act as live with the pain. Don Zorn Okay. Just kidding. Nothing. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just you and all the other doctors. I'm a nurse and I'm actually I as a nurse, I like to help patients feel heard. But with my family. Get your shit together, right? Right. That they grow up. That means take deep breaths and move on now and meditate. Yeah, Maybe focus. Your energy around healing the. Back pain. Totally manifest. I have something I want to say to you. And these do not affect me. Right? But I've. Noticed how on a lot of our. Shorts we, um. Through different platforms. There seems to be this huge evangelical online Christian Yeah. Group in culture. And most of the comments we get on some of our videos are just from you evangelical Christians that are like just trying to like preach the gospel at us or telling us certain things that we obviously are aware of. Like an example would be. Uh, well, that's why the. Holy Spirit's there, because the Holy Spirit loves you and wants you. To wants to. Work through you comment. And in our video we're like, the church hurt my soul. Yeah, you know. Yeah. That's why I want you. If you're watching this, you should know that your seeds are falling on hard ground. You're never going to grow. Okay? There's a verse in the Bible that says that. Yeah, that you're just throwing seeds and they're. Lily, just bounce a ricochet. Yeah, there's a seed. Mustard. These mustard seed, as example to. There was not, like, faith as strong as a mustard seed. You can move mountains. Yeah. What a joke. Yeah. I can't move a mound with the faith of the mustard seed. My first mustard in the war. For me. That's not what I'm saying. I think it's hilarious that every time one of those comments comes through, it's just proving our point. Yeah. And it's like, you know, we're going to completely disregard these two discussing trauma and healing, and we're just going to. Keep piling on that guilt. Yeah. A really funny story that we posted, I think it was either today or yesterday. It was us jokingly saying, Right before you die, give out to Christ. And then just in case it's real, you'll be safe. You know, like the obvious. Like I remember our father as the pastor would preach that as the joke of the sermon like no one, actually, if you're going to follow the faith, could do that because you're not really following the faith and it's not going to work. And we say it as a joke and we're obviously like totally messing around. And then like again, saying what? That that if you pre die. Oh, yeah, just pray. And give your life to Christ and just in case, you know you So what do you have. To lose. It's called a joke. Yeah. And so many. Of these evangelical Christians are like, that doesn't work actually in the Bible. If you're not a true Christian. Like, I think one of the. Comments on it was like if you that's the whole idea is that you don't know when you're going to die. Yeah, I think, yeah, no shit, Sherlock. The joke. Man. These, these are these lovely people. Thanks for commenting. But we know having a voice around our trauma that term. We know having a voice around our trauma connected with the evangelical Christian church. It just pisses Christians off. Yeah. Just talking about it pisses Christians off, dude. I mean, it makes them so upset. And I understand I used to be a Christian pretty deep into it when I was a child. I understand so much less now. I'm like. We chill out. Well, I mean, when you're lost in the Coleman, just pass the video. Anyone else you. See the show, just keep scrolling. He was talking about it about your call. It can be pretty triggering. Yeah, it's true. I am angering. I decided to trigger myself last night. Took a hand. Tell me about it. Yeah. I was like, I'm just going. I just wanted to see if I could recognize anybody. And so I went to a very popular church's Instagram in town here, and I was just like, I was like, I wonder who who's there? I couldn't recognize anybody. So I decided to, like, scroll in and look at faces and I'm like, Oh, and what are they doing? Oh, my God, dude, You're. Like, death. Scrolling. Yeah. Hurt me. From 1030 News segment said, Does it trigger. Triggered in. Us on churches Instagrams I can't do this yeah yeah triggered and he's triggered and. He's triggered. I was 10.5 seconds I was a new record. The record must be triggering Julio as that folks. Yeah. Don't do that, Zach. Okay. There's no reason for that. Yeah. Just go to the moral combat Instagram and remember. How. Lame Instagram First is and then move on. Move on, and then just move on. Move right along. Well, there you have it. Let's jump in to the. We are big fan topic tonight. We've been the last few podcast is trying to be a little bit more. Specific. About what we're talking about which has actually made it more difficult coming into the podcast for me. Because. Over the last like six months we've had weeks where we aren't very specific about what we're doing on this cast. We'll talk pop culture, we'll talk about recent things in the news, or we've sat down and just been like, We don't want to do this tonight, so we're just going to talk. And for us, that's fun. We recognize that delivering this message that we really believe in and also the benefit that we get from healing, having this conversation together and then sharing it with you all and editing it means to have more structure and actually plan ahead. You know, we've talked about so much of our trauma already, and obviously we can feel that there are the algorithms are working in our favor a little bit more and reaching actually some of you. That are really. Connected to our past childhood experiences. And we're in the church with us. And I said at the beginning of this, you've reached out. And so here we are, We're just going to keep going in every week and being a little more specific and trying to some of these things we've talked about before, maybe a couple of podcasts. And so whether we repeat things or not, every time we talk about these topics, there's just so much more that comes out of it. Yeah, last week we. Talked about. Guilt, and the week before. That we talked about. Rituals. And today's episode. Sexual. Repression. Da da da da da sexual repression. The trauma of tents. Yeah, the trauma of deck. The trauma of putting those together before marriage. The trauma of two digs together. Whoa. What about two. Vaginas? Oh, what about Nothing at all. But how bad? Nothing at all. Not possible. Because in the Bible there is two options A man or a woman. And those two come together. And if you don't do it the right way, you find yourself suffering from immense amounts of sinful guilt. Or you'll find yourself in a camp where they're like, You're not gay, you're not gay, you're not gay, you're not. Gay, you aren't gay. Actually, I'm attracted. To you guys are. Really, really funny. Read a post on a day where it was the number one gay conversion camp in the country. The runner of it is now living in Texas with his husband. Oh, wow. I think I heard about this. Yeah. Love it. Love it. The leader of a sexual reconstruction or what's it called? Reconversion. It's like a reconversion camp. So it's like if you're homosexual, you're gay, and then they send you there and then they, like, brainwash you out of brainwash. You actually got shut down right? Because those are terribly abusive and horrible. Well, then he was the biggest one. There's still there's nothing out there. So he's a gay living in Texas now. With his husband. It makes you angry. Makes me excited, man. It's. No, it's not. What do you mean? It's it's because of the. Angering. Obviously, the runner of the camp. Angel. Also battling. They're gay. That means they were sucking cock and chopping it off at the same time. Dude, one of the what was. Really happening at those camps. Exactly. Hopefully when we have this person on as a guest that will most likely get on at some. Point, we have like specific people we know we'll have. I used to be in a music class with them and I remember them telling me about they were they were threatened by their dad, who also was a pastor being sent to one of these camps because they came out as a homosexual at the time and they were like, Do it. You want to put me around a bunch of gay dudes? Do it now because it's serious. It's all you're doing. Like, Hey, I go to a camp with a bunch of other kids who are battling their gayness. What do you think's going to happen? You're joining the Marines. Great. Yeah. Sweet. Have you seen the bald heads on those fuckers? Yeah. Can't wait to run that lady. Sorry, we're getting distracted here. Let's jump in. Yeah, let's go. Like I. We've said the last couple of we've been coming up with these questions to help spearhead the conversations together. Some of them are more generalized, some of them are really intense. And we've read through them once right before we hit record. And so we're going to go through them one at a time. Yep. Zach, I'm going to read this one. And why don't you. Why don't you. Just like in the Olympics, the person who starts with the why, you start with the fire. First memory. The first one, I'm going to read it and you're going to I'm going to hand you the find. You're gonna start the run. Boy. Okay. Can you recall. A specific incident from your religious upbringing where you felt intense. Shame or guilt regarding. Your sexuality? And how did it shape your perspective? Intense shame. Or guilt, which we talked about this the last cast. When it comes up often. This is kind of what led us to this castrate. Well, in sexual sexual repression is just huge in the faith, so big. And so when I think of like my guilt and shame, it was my guilt and shame for being a sexual being because there's so many teachings in the Bible that teach you not to give in to any sexual part of yourself, even like I even didn't feel good about, like when I would be married, I'd be okay with being sexual because I was repressing it all my childhood. That the point. All right. How did it shape your perspective? Well, just. Like a specific incident. I mean, I think having youth pastors asking about my masturbation is like a pretty big guilt I felt pretty guilty for. Can you remember, like, or like. So I like those are specific and I can we've talked about those before, but like, has there been anything in the church that specifically happened? So there was a. There was a handful of men's retreats that I was sent to in a men's retreat. We always try to clarify just for anyone that wasn't raised in the church, is just a retreat for men to go to, no women. And it's basically teachings for men on how to be a better Christian as a man. And one of the big buff, handsome pastors would always say, Man. You're horny mice, you can't. Control yourself. And they would just burn that in your brain as a kid that you're horny and you can't control yourself. And you know what? I was horny and I could totally control myself growing up. I always did control myself because I was too guilty for being sexual, that I would never give in ever in front of anybody my sexual desires. Do you call. That control, though, or it's like you controlling you? Or is. That church? Oh, I was teaching. No. Yeah. I mean, I say I was in control. It was there was I was never going to make a hiccup. I was never going to to be like, oh, I'm so overwhelmed with my emotions and my hormones that I'm going to have sex with this girl or boy or whatever. I didn't like any any feelings. I was repressing them because I was waiting until marriage to such an extreme degree that I even felt guilty for. You brought. Up that part that youth pastor, whoever said that. To you. Man, you're horny mice. So that sounds like that was a specific teaching or incident that you remember that really affected me. I just remember being a 13 year old boy and thinking, No, and there was many there is many teachings that I didn't think that way, that I would just agree because I that all that was taught. But that one in particular, I think it won't stick with me as I was like even at 13, like, you're so wrong. Like, I just couldn't I couldn't be on board with that. I was just this horny, uncontrollable being and that I mean, that when it came to shame and guilt, it was it's it's shame and guilt around having sexual desires and sexual thoughts. And different people react to those differently. And I just wasn't one of the boys that ever really reacted to those. But I still had them and I felt very guilty for having them. Yeah. And I think that, you know, I think that you're expressing like a gender. It's more it's a little more generalized. It's a shame and guilt that you experience from the church's teachings or the church's upbringing on you. That, yeah, a specific. Specific instance is tough because I can't like nothing. I never was like sexually abused in the church that like or molested. And that's something you hear so, so big like, right. I mean, there's a lot unfortunately, there's a lot of that. And that's like, that's the hot topic you hear about a lot, you know, like priests. Yeah. Exactly. And but like, I have one that's specific to me that, you know, we've said this so many times. The you know. This is our church, this is our church here. And so with our father being a Christian evangelical pastor, the church doesn't fall or fall. It doesn't far fall from the tree to our parents like they are the church. And so the separation between parents and church sometimes is difficult. So a lot of the teachings that our father taught us were those of everything was those of what the church teaches. And it was like, you go to church, you hear pastor talk. Well, that's what the. Pastor is just talking to you, but it's your father. And so it was like pastoral teachings about everything. Yeah. One of those for my life was constant long conversations around sexual desire and the like, pinpointing any sort of feeling I had or anything. It was like, Well, this is what it's supposed to be. This is why you're having that feeling. And, and it, it, it, it, it. A So there was one specific time, and I'm sure I've shared some of briefly this on this class, but that I was young in our it was hard to find any like pictures of naked people in our house. Yeah I remember in seventh grade I was in eighth grade, there was. A. Kid in the. School who was. Like the porno kid. He was. Addicted to tits. And he had like, little cards in his wallet, like naked, like porn stars and girls. And I would bring my Bible to school. So that was like the contrast, right? You have the weirdo kid who just started seventh grade who buys Bible school, and then you have the other kid who has, like, pictures of porn in his wallet. Yep. This is just to put into perspective. That I was like, so. Afraid. Of. His with the pictures he and his wall because I wanted to look them so bad and I would know like the feeling I would get if, like knowing that that that's the dude who has like. The boobs. That have implants in them. And I've heard of them and I know I just want to see it, but I know I can't. And so and he would like, run up to me and pull them out and be like, Hey, Christian boy, and throw them in my face. And I'd be like. You know, like, Oh, my baby. Yeah. And, and guilt. And he'd be like, Just relax, bro. His tits. And I'd be like. It's not just Dad's. And he ended up like, Give me one of them. And I felt so guilty having it that I threw away that day. I remember getting home, being like. Wow, that was my chance. And it was so confusing. Everything. So around that age, seventh grade, I'm in my room and the access I had to like, you know, I would like pull up. You know, our father had a we said this so many times. I'll say again, Father had like a protection thing on the website are all the computers called Covenant Eyes, so that every little picture on any website that resembled a naked woman, not a man, naked woman. One man. It was any any sexual was it was any sex. Any sexual thing, like anything from like actual porn to like underwear like you know, if. You're on a gaming website and there's like an underwear ad, it'll get flagged as rad and you sent you. Exactly. And so it was like you can't when the Internet we have all had our own computers, you know, and like he couldn't like, search anything because it was like the eyes were always watching. So one of the loopholes I had was like looking at eBay underwear ads. Like literally bras. And like, stuff like that. And so there was like, when I'm just, you know, masturbating, looking at underwear ads. And I. You know, father walks in, pants are down on my ankles like two in the morning. And I like see him and he sees me and he's like half asleep and he's just like most dads would just be like, go to bed and, like, close the door. Right, turn that off, go to bed. However, you know, imagine, like, I want to get involved. I just get on it. And he was like, oh, Nathan Instant like deep breath. Like. Oh, buddy, buddy, buddy. And he walks. Into my room and closes the door, pants around my ankles, cock in my hand. And I'm like, And he's like, Go ahead and pull your pants up. And I was like, I pulled my pants up. He was like, Come take a seat with me on the bed. And I'm like, And I was like, Sit down on the bed. Proceeded to give me an hour and a half conversation about marriage, weddings, love, like family, what's going to happen? And he's something he said to me in that conversation. And it's this is not about saying anything ill about the father. It's more of just about. This is the church. Is he said. And this was taught Pat youth pastor said this to me. But I remember at that time it felt so like. I'm not even I there's a there's kids at school. I'm looking at underwear, you know. It was so awkward. And I look, I was still too young to understand fully was going on. And one of the things I was told was, you know, the decisions you make today and the things you look at today will be burned in you forever. And it's going to hurt your future wife. Yeah. I remember. That was like. Ingrained and I was like. I'm not I don't want. To hurt my future. Wife. I don't wanna hurt my family. Yeah. He's like, And you're going to see things that are going to never leave you. So the choices you make to look at things you'll never be able to forget them. And that really fucked me up because there's a lot of crazy shit online. So when I like fast forward four years later, I get kicked out and I'm on my own and we have internet and I got a MacBook or whatever and like there's, yeah, we can get in that whole conversation of like. This life of just. Looking at naked people, right? And having a sexual relationship with myself was so difficult and so much guilt around that for so long. But that the. Every time that I would like see something that was so. Just sexual, I would have that thought like. You know, I wonder if this is like, Oh. What the heck, Why am I thinking that? Yeah, I'm I'm wondering, I'm going to hurt my future relationship. And I'd be like, wait, that's crazy. That's crazy. But that was stuck with me in relationships. And yeah, it was wild. So that really affected me. That really caused a lot. Of personal shame to think that every naked woman I saw that aroused me and I are naked man. And aroused me. And it's like, Well, who knows if you're going to make it through your marriage now. So who knows? Yeah, did. And just not being taught anything about sex too. I feel like, yeah, sex was such. An important conversation, but it wasn't ever about how to wear a condom. And it was. I think when you get married, you should know what sex is, consent. And the talk was like, I mean, I don't want to get into how my parents gave me a sex talk. I don't even know if I really remember it. I think I would if I had one. I know. I know you had one. I remember Amber when you had one. Yeah, Maybe you've repressed it. Maybe, man. But I can tell you one thing. I was never taught, and I've mentioned this multiple times people as evangelical, as our family and the church that we were raised in, there is no possibility of you walking away because there's no life after you walk away. And so why would we plan you? Why'd plan you? Why would we prepare you for anything of this life besides an evangelical Christian life? So you're not taught about condoms. And the argument there is, well, you were taught about them in school. And it's like. Not really, though, because I didn't believe in health class or science because I was an evangelical Christian and I already knew that abstinence is the only way. So you think I paid attention in school and actually cared While you like you said, the kids are coming to school with tits in their wallets and I'm not because I'm a good person. They're bad people and I'm a good person because I'm not going to give in these sexual desires. So I don't need condoms. Well, never use a condom. I'm not having sex till I'm married. Like, these things were just in my brain and I never even understood I was thinking them or why I wasn't interested in certain things at school. In reality, it was just because it was ingrained to me not to be interested in them, but to not be taught how to use a condom and to not be taught how to have safe sex. If you're going to choose to have sex as a being who is sexual ever leads to you having when you do walk away and start to have sex with people or, you know, you get a girlfriend at 17 and you happen to lose your virginity to her, and then your whole. World. Is sex after that. And you thought, well, now I'm going to hell. And so nothing matters anymore. Everything I've been working towards my entire childhood is all fucked. Because you had and walked away from Christianity Year until like, so you were just sinning in your life. But I'd do the the worst thing ever you could do. So like, you were like a Christian boy who's, like, got his first girlfriend, loses her virginity and you're breaking the rules or getting drunk. But no, not even I was not drinking yet. Not even close. I was doing drugs. But you were still a Christian. Doing Christian who brought my first girlfriend who I was terrified to have because she was Catholic. I remember taking mom aside on a camping trip because she was like, You're not talking to anybody and you're being really distant. And I was like, Mom's cry, like, And she's Catholic. I don't know what to do. Oh, damn. And you just had a whole different. Experience to that. My mom was like, Why. Are you so scared? And I was like, Are you kidding me, Mom? She's Catholic. And even Mom was like, Where did you get this idea that that's bad? And I was like. What are you? I was so. Confused because I was like, What are you talking about? This is the teachings you've taught me since I was born. And the thing is, man, is I was so blinded that I was like, She is excited about church and she wants to come see me. Maybe we can convert her. And we did. And the thing is, is she was she was she was the most sexual being in in my vicinity of friends at the school. And I just happened to date her. I was trying to get over another Christian girl that I had a huge crush on. And it ended up being an insanely manipulative, very sexual relationship, but like, controlling and manipulative because I didn't know what I was doing. And the second I crossed that boundary, I didn't have parents to talk to and I don't have anyone to talk to. And it was just me as a 17 year old boy with no knowledge on sex and making mistake after mistake after mistake. So where would you say that? Because we there's a lot that we've learned on this case where we actually don't share our experiences at all, which is why it's so fascinating. But the one thing we do share is the first partners or the first connections. We had two other people that were like sexual experiences. We're both like very manipulative sexual experiences, but like not saying, not trying to put any pressure on other people. It was that we were so frickin like innocent, literally. Innocent, innocent. And Christian. Because remember, the first person I was with was also like, a lot of my damage came from that first, you know, like, things happened where I felt so guilty. Yeah. And like, the in my mom and dad were, like, different experience. They, like, treated me really poorly for being with that person or just hanging out with them. This is also the same girl, man. Or this is just such a vulnerable podcast. It's hard to like just not be insanely vulnerable and be like. Well, I hope no one hears. This kind of way it feels, but this is the same girl that when I did get overrun with guilt, that I was having sex with her and I had an anxiety attack and it was really bad. I had to tell Mom and Dad, that's the only way I can get rid of the anxiety is the guilt was so overwhelming. And when I told them, they were like, You have to move out now. And I was 17, You you you were the example of they will kick you out. And I told them, okay, I've talked to fucking 17. Do I talked to her mom and I can move into her house. 17 Yeah, Junior year high school. And dad lost it. Mom broke down because they were like, All right. And I'm like, I have planned that. I knew this was going to go bad. I needed to tell you because I'm having so much anxiety and I'm panicking and the room change and Dad lost it and he's like coping. I mean, I don't I don't want to really put like it's parental trauma at this point. It's not I mean, it is really just trauma, but. It's real. Parental trauma. Bad, bad argument, real bad to the point of where just to calm the parents. And I was like, fine, I'll stop having sex in the back of my head. I'm like, You guys are crazy. Because it was like, I am trying to be an honest son with you that I don't know how to stop having sex now. It's almost like they like talking to them. Or at least you have some of that guilt and anxiety. But then you, like, learned. That's like, okay, I'm less anxious by them now, just by them knowing it, by saying just by their causing me way more pain. Yeah. And even still so confusing. Right? So you're like, thanks for for being my mommy and daddy. Looks like I'm gonna have to start hiding things. Exactly. Looks like it looks like for your experience, that's. That's pretty. It is really intense. I never knew that happened that day. Like, you had that experience, too, with them. There it was. Well, so. So at this time in my life, I only had contact with you outside the home. You weren't allowed to come to the house. It's just weird to remember because I think I blocked a lot of our relationship out at that time. But it was about a two and a half, three year period where we weren't really allowed to see each other. And when it wasn't that long. It was remember remember when I texted you, you were just starting at the junior college and I texted you and I was like, I need condoms. And I think I brought this joke. Up one time. You were like, You made it. It's like. And I was like, I don't know. I don't know how to get them. And you're like, First you got to know what size you are. Remember that? That's right. That's right. And you find that joke. I mean, but then you met me at that little town green there, and you gave me a couple of condoms, and you're like, being the old brother. That was that was like I had interactions with you pulling up in your car and then going back to your life. And that was about it. But this all happened when. Yeah, of course, didn't hear about it. You weren't. But it was not. You weren't there. You weren't allowed to even be in our lives that. Wow. And so it was just a different, different time, different situation. And this is when I started to have arguments with our parents were in the past. I would just be quiet in my. Room right now. And so it was a changing time for me and. Who would have thought you started having sex and you started feeling really guilty and they made you feel even worse for it. And you're like, Now we're just arguing. Well, so I did what they wanted and told them what they wanted. And then I was just like, Well, I guess I have to live with this guilt cause I can't stop having sex. Yeah. And I and I don't, I don't want to bad mouth anybody, but I, I was. I had fell in love with every girl I ever had a crush on to the point of where I would have married them in that moment, because that's what I was taught to do. And I had this crush on this girl from another town for like a year and a half. And I would confess my love to her every single month. And seriously, it was brutal. And this is this. Is what this repression and like religious trauma really looks like is the most innocent boy. Just like. But the tales are true and. I have met my love and it's like it's just that that's not how the world works. Zach is like you're living in a fantasy world. And she was like, really sweet. And I confessed my love and she was like, Yeah, now am I gonna maybe next month? And I just was lost in a cycle. And I finally got to this point older, like 17 in junior in high school that I was like this my last time. Tell you I like you. And she was like, Yeah, it's just we're not going to have a relationship. And I was like, cool. And so I instantly started texting this other girl who had the crush on me for a really long time. And because she was interested in me, I was like, I'm in love with her. And so I just fell fucking in love with her and then started this crazy relationship with her and thought I was going to marry her. And I thought it was okay to have sex with her. And it led to just a lot of pain in my life and a lot of a lot of real, like, insane lessons to learn from a very innocent place. Not just like we all go through tough high school relationships, but go through that same abusive relationship with no relationship advice, no sex advice, no advice at all. And you all, you know, is God love in the Bible. And it's like, cool, that's a recipe for disaster. But yeah, so I thought, I'm going to marry her. And then the second that that ended, I was like, All I want to do is party and have sex now because I already fucked up. And so what did I do? Sorry. That's when the partying started to really happen. And that's when like, yeah. Mean, that's wild. And I think that like, talking about, like sexual repression in the way we do it on this talk about anything in this class when it what it's doing is it's bringing. Back all. Of these things. Yeah but it's bringing back the stories and the things that have kind of, you know, whether we've healed of them on our own or not. They are by design. They were by design affected so much because. Of the church and. Because of that guilt and. That, that shame. Wow. Yeah. I'm sorry I went on to fucking spew that. But that's the whole point though. Get it out. We You want to just skip the next question? Well, I have a nice verse to read. For our question too. That's a line I'm on fire says, Were there particular teachings or doctrines within your former religion that explicitly repressed sexual expression? And how did you come. To. Challenge or. Reject these beliefs? I mean. Yes, the. Particular teachings and doctrines. We found two verses from the Bible. Yeah. That are. So specific. Just yeah, and. Just we want to share these go forward. We know we don't. Read scripture on this case. We actually have yet to read any because you could. Just open the. Bible. It's obvious, just read it and you'll be. Like, Oh. Yeah, if you're good, if you just read the Bible at all, it just get through like the first four books and you'll, you'll have like 45 verses if you're not Christian. They are like, This doesn't seem right. It doesn't say, We got it. There's stuff in the Bible that's fine and beautiful and it's filled with poetry. And is. It? Yeah. Let's see this. Let's see it. First Corinthians 618 through 20 is. Full of poetry. Fully from sexual. All other sins a person commits are outside the body. But whoever sins sexually sins against their own body. Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit? Who is in you whom you have received from God? You are not your own. You were bought at a price, therefore honor God with your bodies. And that was. Leviticus. You said Corinthians four Corinthians. Yeah. So it's New Testament. So it's saying you're you repentance. The Old Testament. Now let oh. My God, that's how far removed. We are. I'm pretty sure precious Old Testament Isaiah, who can. Thank you for this, doesn't. Matter. Does it really matter? It's it does because it's saying in that verse that you were bought. Right? Who bought you? What does that mean? Isn't it the blood of Jesus? Well, yeah. Jesus said that would be the New Testament, right? Yeah, That have to be the new test. Maybe. Amen. Zachary is so far removed from the Bible in church, he doesn't even remember the gospel. Can you believe that? The point of that verse is we don't need to get too caught up on it. But like the point of that verse saying that your body is a temple. Okay, so this was like New Testament. This is like, shared. Yeah, this is how far removed you are. You're like, I think Corinthians is, it's okay. This is a good that's a good thing. I know it's a great thing having a. Really trauma class and not having knowledge that much of the Bible anymore is a good. Idea. But that like this idea of that your body is a temple of God, like it's a temple. So it's pure. Like in like so. Anything that you do. To that is. Ultimately like affecting the temple, this pure temple. Of God that is your body. And you taint it with that sinful sexual. And just, just nature comment on that. That was used a lot that your body as a temple. Everything when it came to like but it. Was way more used on women in of like but don't. Fuck up the woman's. Temple interesting. Like I don't know if you ever got that vibe from like men will make mistakes sexually and if they do, they will. They will repent, you know, like a woman can't. I was. I think I was. And not until, like maybe sophomore year of high school when I became really, really close, like my closest my closest friends were girls at a certain point, like from the church and like, can I do high school and stuff? But I was such a I was such a young, egotistical, narcissistic boy, like, not like I was I wasn't narcissistic by nature, but just like I couldn't think outside of my own head. So I never even thought about the girls experience until I was like 16, 17. And oh. I didn't think about the girls experience until I was 25. Did I just. I guess, like my point being that being on it, I can't wait to have people on this cast that are identifying as female, you know, And I can share what it felt like because there's plenty of questions I have regarding these types of things. But for me it was just like I was. Yeah, I really felt. Like I was always tainting the temple of God, like my body. It was such a weird thing that you your body's attempt. I think that that's like beat can be a beautiful thing, but like, the way it's being taught. Well, even just there in that verse, you are not your own. You were bought at a price. All right. That's what I was. Saying to you, slave. That's like, what is that? That's just referring to Jesus dying on the cross. I get it. But it's just worded in a way that it's like you don't own any of your thoughts in any of your actions. Yet it's formatted to like there's no other option but to feel shame and guilt if you act outside of that. Yeah, like this man, this white. Man. That's portrayed in our culture and, you know, gave his his perfect is pure person, you know, gave body. Yeah. For you. How dare you defile yours. Yeah. It's like you're right. How dare I. Yeah, it's terrible. Yeah. So much. Shame. Shame. Next verse, Leviticus. Okay, this is Old Testament now. I love that. You know, I don't know that. 18 or 20. No, wait, 18, 20. I forget Leviticus do not have sexual relations with a man, as one does with the woman that is detestable. Oh, God, how awful. How awful have you so fucked up? I do not. And clearly the. Verse isn't written for women. It's written for men. And it's Old Testament. Yeah. So it's just like there isn't. Yeah. Wow. It's everything up. There's so much in that verse that's so insane. And also, just like, he's so backwards. So it's only men can have sex with men. So women are. You have to reign. You can be as gay as you want technically from that verse. Well there's. There's, there's no acknowledgment that women are alive. At all when you are they acknowledged in the Bible do. Men do not have sex with men as you do with women? It's detestable. Just like and Christians say that in the Bible. It doesn't say being gay is wrong. We don't do that. So many Christians are like, Those aren't true. You're just overreading it. You're overreading it. Oh, you're you're not Look. You're like you're words. I've heard that so much words. I can actually just say that in the Bible. Oh, interesting. I heard that. I've always been taught from our father as the pastor that he does say in the Bible. One. There's there's an ad on the it's about homosexuality. But there's another thing that Christians focus on. I can't think of it right now, but I have asked our father, I'm like, where's that in the Bible? Actually, not in. So I don't know what. That one is, though. Interesting. Let's move on, though. Yeah. Christian three. How has the. Repression of sexual desires affected your romantic relationships or sexual identity, and what steps have been taken to overcome these challenge? Is Yeah, I think this is the biggest one when it comes to religious trauma and in the future and where I'm at now and like where everything we've talked about thus far is what it was like being a child and a teenager. And, and the second from ended right to know. Well. So I think that I think that if we can be really honest right now. Yeah with this question you and I had and still. To this day have. Very different experiences in our sexual lives. You know. Based on what happened to us after leaving the church. And that's because there's like when I 17 was kicked out and hit the road, I didn't this the sexual repression was so internal, but when it came, there was such an external sexual. Expression where. A lot of my sexual identity because in this question it talks about how did the repression of sexual desires affect your romantic relationships, which means the remote learning that we're in right now and every relationship before. Right. And or sexual identity. And I've talked about this a lot in this cast and even in my plant medicine journeys this year, I've had a lot of growth and reformatting and clarity on my own sexual identity, which is like so frickin fluid. It's unbelievable. Hence the name change. Hence the name change. Yes, our name used to be those boys. And after I went off into the mountains and did some plant medicine, I connected so much more with my sexual identity and realized that we didn't want to have any sort of specific identity, demanding identity in our names or. Anything. Because my sexual identity has become so much more fluid as I feel and grown. And I'm 33 and this is happening this year. And so it's pretty, pretty consistent. And I think whether you're grown up in the church or not, there's this sort of conservative look in all that's been changing, right? And it's such a good time if you're in the church and you want to break free, this is a better time than ever. But so for me, like. All. Of that sexual repression was like a it's like a pressure cooker. And it was building and building and building. And I could feel it. And I was like, you know, like masturbation was such a guilty thing in the church. But when I got to like 16, 17 and right before I was getting kicked out, like there was so much going on in my life that was like, you know, like smoking weed without parents knowing, you know, like being with my best friend. And he would be sharing crazy, like, doctrines from like these, you know, Rosicrucian, you know, religions and other religions and being like, you know, like really helping me like, break out of the shell and reformat. And then when I and then I had a partner at the time, like my first real girlfriend at the time when I got kicked out, that's I moved into my friend's pool house and then we all got an apartment together. And within a matter of the first month I had broken up with that girlfriend at the time because when we had moved in with each other that first week, I realized that like one this person was wasn't healthy for me and I wasn't healthy for them and we shouldn't be together. And also that, like I'd found myself making decisions that I never would have made because I was so scared to be alone and I was so scared to speak up for myself in that relationship. And so I had found myself right out of the house, right out of the church, being in a relationship that was almost identical to the parents. They considered themselves an atheist, but they were sexually controlling. I was very confused with my dad. I was I had so much sexual desire in me at that in that relationship. And they were somebody who repressed a lot of their sexual energy. They weren't even raised religious. It's just the way it went. So there was a huge imbalance and a mismatch in between like sexual expression and need, sexual needs and fulfilling that. So that relationship instilled like a lot of guilt and shame and like feeling really weird that I, like, wanted to have sex with my partner, but they didn't want sex with me rarely ever. And it was always like trying to figure out, is it me that, them? And it was so confusing. And then I, like, moved in with them and I was like, Wait a minute. And they were so controlling and I was like, angry. And I felt sexually repressed more. And then we broke up and it was like the craziest breakup. Yeah, I remember So brutal. Everything. I gave this person power because I was there's my first partner, first relationship. I wrote them a whole entire album music. I wrote them poetry, bought them everything. Like it was just like all of my hopeless romantic thing I ever wanted do for somebody. I poured into that relationship because I'm gonna marry him. Yeah. And we broke up, and they. Everything I ever gave, they broke every It was like your classic crazy breakup, and they destroyed everything, and it was just really toxic. And then I ended up getting back with that person two months later because I didn't know how to say no to them when they, like, came crawling back and they got back together with me. And then within the first two weeks of being back together for me and I'm thinking like, maybe this is going to work out. I was with them for almost three years and I was just so googly eyed and bleary eyed and all this stuff, and then bam, they slept with one of my good friends. Yeah. And it was the first experience of my life of just humanity and sex and how confusing it is. And you don't need church for it to be confusing. And people can use the control and. You can get really, really, really hurt. When you're like really sexually involved and in a relationship at that age. And the fact that this person got back together with me so that they could hurt me in the long run by cheating on. Me and I that after that. Was when like there was so much confusion and trauma and pain and I repressed all of that pain. It was like, Oh, this is so bad. This is like really bad. And I could never not think about any car that looked like them. And it was so obvious what had happened. And I feel like such an idiot. And so the way that I came out of my shell, like out of the church and out of that relationship and out of that pain. Was. The next two years after that from like, you know, like 1920. Were me. You know, expressing myself sexually and then and just, you know, like I couldn't I couldn't say I was like, how do I want to say it? Like, you know, I didn't have. The greatest game. I didn't know how to talk with, you know, I was awkward. I was funny. I'd always say the weird joke, but I found myself not being able to say no. You know like. And there's alcohol involved is there's all this suppression already. And like, so I found myself getting really hurt at those ages in my life by, like, hooking up with people that I never I didn't want to. But like, had this such a. Sexual need to be fulfilled and I just wanted to be loved. Is so much of that need to be loved was if I I felt so loved after, like making out with somebody or like, just being around somebody that I was attracted to was like, Oh, I feel less lonely and I feel so loved. And so this idea of being able to, to like, like sex was such a distraction. It's like any. Date I went on, it was like not even coming from a bro headspace. It was just like, I wonder if I might have sex with them on one of them. I have sex. I don't even have sex with one of them. It was like I couldn't think about anything else. And I had but I had a the ability to communicate and had this desire for relationship. But it was I was so overwhelmed and consumed with guilt and shame and being like, I'm not a Christian anymore. I don't deal with this, but I've been cheated on and all this shit like. Fuck love. So now just push you a little forward. Now you're engaged, right? Do you still struggle. With any of this sexual. Guilt or. I think it's such a. So much has happened from the age of 18, 1920 to 33. And I would have been in, you know, one like when it comes to serious relationships, I think it was. For. Real serious relationships. And. Have met and dated, you know, like not nearly as many guys, but like have had two experiences on both ends of the spectrum for me. And, you know, the gay experiences I had in my mid-twenties. Where. Wildly transformative and fearful, right? So after I'd gotten over a lot of sexual guilt in my early twenties, I deal with a lot of that sexual guilt. My early twenties is shame. And. Had found myself in toxic relationships. But I think every relationship that doesn't work out has moments of toxicity and that's why maybe it doesn't work. I think even healthy relationships have moments of toxicity. And so I guess none of it's about I have had so much. Peace. I was such a difficult person to be with too, at times controlling and confused in my relationship sexually about my desires and my needs. I couldn't say no. I couldn't let somebody go that wasn't working out for me. I was like. Stuck a lot. And so that question you're asking is I think every relationship I would imagine goes through sexual growth and transformations and like, got to keep things spicy and you got to like you did lows and highs and like what have you. But in my partnership now and where I've become personally, this. Was there was. Handfuls of relationships like people that I had met that help bridge the gap of just a this welcome to humanity. So we're all just human being. Hey, we're all just humans. Yeah. Why? I'm so sorry. No, no, no, no, no. You didn't do anything wrong. We were all just. Human, you know, like, whatever it was that I felt. Guilty about, like. Whatever. Or, like, learning how to speak for, like, I want this, you know, like. Like being able to have the confidence to get what I need sexually in a healthy and productive way was so difficult in my early twenties, mid twenties that the religion I mean, I finally, you know, like I learned after my before the parents, it's such a hard thing to tackle because it gets so deep like the person I'm with now and going to marry and the love of my life, it just makes so much sense. Her and I have done since day one we started talking. What made sense was that her and I had been meeting one eyed eye on sexual needs, emotional needs, like physical needs. There was a lot of things that made sense to us. It was like, Oh, we met her match. Like we we really worked. Really. This is easy. While this is amazing, when you're with somebody who wants you as much as you want them sexually and there was no pressure, was no guilt. Like. So in the first year of being with my fiance, Sam, we I dealt with more than I could have imagined. The deep, deep stuff. Because I just had never been with somebody that I was able that I fell in love with and I wanted to be with and build a relationship with that had a equal and honest sexual desires I did for their partner most of every relationship I was in before that, it's felt like there was a sexual imbalance. And it was always my fault. Why do I want sex so bad? Yeah, why. Do I want have what I want? Have sex with my partner so bad? Because they don't have sex with me. So I found. Myself. I think it was like partly like I found myself in relationships with people that weren't the same as me, didn't have the same needs. And instead of me being able to, like, see that as a red flag or maybe an issue. It was like double. Down into it. And there's I know there's something there. Being with somebody who doesn't like who kind of sucks the sexual energy out of you because they can't reflect it back. And there's something there that feels familiar, like, Oh, that feels like my child. That feels that's right. I'm not allowed to have sex before marriage and all that. Like, so it's almost like a reflection of that guilt and shame in my partner's, not them specifically. Everyone has their own issues or growth they need to go through. But ultimately, if you can find somebody that wants and has the same sexual needs and can grow with you, then as somebody who is dealing with a lot of trauma and guilt and shame, I was able to like when it came to pornography, masturbating on my own in a relationship, right? Like, so the partner I'm with now. Had. Was pretty much. Like. There's nothing that you're doing that's wrong. And I'm like, What do you mean? She's like, You're just a person, and I'm happy that you're doing that. You should have your own sexual relationship. And it was like I had, you know, I mean, like it was rare to already have like outside of the church, it's rare to, like, meet confident people that are like, sexually, I don't know how to describe it. So there was just so much about my partner now that was perfect for me at that time, that first year. And once I was able to find foundation of just how to accept myself sexually, then real growth and like new construction and that's like my sexual identity. I've given like so much credit to the partner I have now. Who's. Equally as fluid as I am. And. Has grown at a similar pace with me together. And as I have reached new heights in my sexual identity, it's helped them reach new heights and as they've reached new heights in their sexual identity, it's helped me like we are like in this together. So are you saying you're trying to correlate you're the same way you had to repress your sexuality as a young boy being raised evangelical, You're saying it unconsciously reflected into the other girlfriend's. Yeah, just threw me off guard. The other girlfriends you. Chose. Throughout your twenties and the girls you unconsciously were attracted to also were ones that were going to repress sex from you in a little bit or not meet you on your sexual needs. Almost like you chose that unknowingly, trying to kind of get back into that little boy not able to have sex. Yeah, I did not. No, I didn't. I think what you're what you're saying is, like, I didn't have the ability to to take responsibility for my own life. I didn't have the ability to take responsibility. I was reacting to my relationships like, oh, man, my my girlfriend's so. Hot. And this, this or that. It is what it is. Yeah. Like there wasn't an ability to take responsibility over. I didn't know who I was. I got to know who I was sexually. And so I didn't know who I was sexually as a kid. And whenever I started to figure out who I was sexually as a kid, it was repressed. It was told, No, no, no, no. Like, you're not allowed to, like, starting from that story. I said, you know, it's like just a kid that's 13, 14 jacking of their room and their dad comes in to talk to you about marriage and your future wife and says, Whatever you look at now will probably have a negative impact on your future wife. That led all the way to like every time I was, if I was in a related with somebody and they made me feel guilty for looking at porn, which was like, I'm just trying to figure out my life, trying to figure out my sexual desires or whatever. It was like I felt terrible. Yeah, that I could. Ever do that to my partner. Yeah. So I'm not going to look at a single thing. I'm not going to check off on my own interest in this relationship. I'm not going to do anything because I don't want to hurt them because I know even though I'm not a Christian anymore, it's like I know. I'm like all. Of that stuck. And the people I'm with, you're young, you know. Who do you? You're 18. 19, insecure as. Fuck, you know. Like, I don't know any at that time in my and that that age. And then like the time we're growing up. That. Those years like it's intimidating, you know, if your partner's like looking like it was rare. I remember like when I was in my first job as a busser, I worked with a server there who was outside smoking a cigaret and I used to go back and smoke Cigarets with her and she was like, she just asked me. It's like a weird it was a weird. She was like, You have sex. And I'm like, Yeah, I have. I'm in a relationship. She was like, I mean, my partner like to look at porn like she just told me this was one of these, you know, servers, you know, me and my I mean, my partner look at porn, and then we try to imitate what they do. And I remember being like. Cool. Know like what that's like. I didn't know if it was wrong, if it was bad, was good. It was like just I'm feeling a lot of feelings are now that sounds fine, but it's of guilt I would never do. I don't know if I could ever do that. Yeah, that sounds great. That sounds so fun to be like. It sounds so fun that sounds so nice to have a partner like that, but oh, my God, I would never have that. I don't have that with my partner. Yeah, it was like all of that's what it felt like. It's. It's like, now look at me. Yeah, It's like I am the porn. Yeah. And it's also hard to decipher. It's also hard to decipher that from a religious trauma standpoint. And just being young. So young. It's my cigaret and. Like, I think that's just like it's for at least us. It's hard for me to decipher some of the things that like, happen in conversations like that where you're like, That made me uncomfortable and I'm thinking about it 24 seven now. And what does that mean? Am I just growing up or is that like, was I repressed? But yeah, dude, restaurant industry is fucking weird. You learn some shit in the restaurant. Too to answer it, yet you learn a lot in the restaurant. But too. And to finish, answer your question. Yeah. Like I think that I was subconsciously finding myself living the same. My trauma. I'm just reliving that because, like, it's like, how do I say it? Going back to an abusive relationship. Yeah. It's hard to leave an abusive relationship. Right? Right. Because it's familiar. It's safe because that's what you're used to. You don't know anything else. Yeah. So how are you. Supposed to. Grow. If you keep finding yourself in relationships that are toxic? The person's not growing at the same pace you want to. You have anger issues. You're sexually repressed. They are sexually repressed. But this isn't stuff. I think any relationship or you don't have any agency is pretty toxic. Right. And I think my relationship with God, I don't have any agency. And so that was pretty toxic. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. You know what's funny about this conversation? We made it through three questions. No, Now, would you mind just a tiny bit longer? I feel like we're missing a couple of things. We would like one more question and that we could choose. I'm. I haven't really gone through them, but so. Just I you. Keep kind of beating around the bush here and like, over it. And I always say overexplain just kind of going into detail on your relationships and do you still struggle with the same that I want you to the same. Do you still struggle with like guilt after you have sex? Oh, no, never. And I haven't since I was in my early twenties. I haven't felt guilty from sex. I didn't feel guilty. From sex ever. That's where I think you and I are really different. Yeah. Because I never felt I felt free having. I felt good. If it was like a powerful thing, it was like I just did it. It was my relationships. The people in my relationships outside of the church had, like, you know, made me. Feel guilty. For certain things. Interest like, like I was like in a guilty relationship. So I think that is what you're asking was like, so like, there were things where I felt really guilty for wanting to have sex to my partner and then being confused why they didn't want me back. And that was like very insecure and confusing and like, made me, like, overthink everything. But like, if you're asking me in my life, like, when I got over that sexual guilt, I never dealt with it that way. That's my point, is that it was a pressure cooker. So when I got out of the house and like out of that first relationship, it was like, boom. Welcome to the stars. And it was so fun. It was just complicated. Yeah. And I was confused. But sex was the reward. Right? I was addicted to the reward. I don't really like. This is what they were holding me back from. And so then the next question would maybe come up like, you know, I have a 12 year old. How did that happen? Yeah. Because there's this idea of why are you have I wasn't taking responsibility for my feelings. I was just reacting to the urges that were repressed for so long that it was like, you're free what you're going to do. Yeah. It was like. Well, in your kids situations, a little different and we can't talk about it on this podcast, but it's not just you making bad choices. That was a little more manipulation on that side. Oh yeah. No, I was just making. I was just making choices. Yeah And then I got trapped. You know, and then ended up literally. Yeah. And it, yeah. And we can't talk about in this class and that's fine. I don't think I have any desire to. It's not something that even really needs to come up here on this because it's a completely different situation than religious trauma. But it's incredibly relates to this though, because because. I couldn't something. That you and I both have said multiple times is we never felt like we were given the agency to ever say no. And if there's any a handful situations I can think of where I was like, I didn't say no, I just did it. And it wasn't like the worst of things, but I would rather have not have done it. And I didn't say no because I don't I didn't even know then. I didn't know. How responsibility. And I look at your situation and I'm like, your situation. You talk about it multiple times and I've heard so many different I've heard you talk about so many times that it's like you just didn't say no and just went with it and that was that. And yeah, and I was almost blacked out drunk. Yeah. And so there's very, very, very little memory. Yet for you. And it was. Yeah. Why did we need to get locked out drunk. One it was part of the culture and the friends that, that you had. Yeah. I had her all around me. It's college, but it's also like, man, I didn't realize I loved numbing the trauma. Or just anxiety around people. Like social anxiety and like. The. I got a lot better. I'm way better game when I'm, you know, really buzzed, you know, like I can talk to women easier if I'm really. Bossy and which is. I don't know better. You're a lot more free to take risks, that's for sure. I don't know. I don't think it's better communication. Yeah. And it is part of that culture in that age. But yeah, I didn't say no. I didn't know how to say no, man for a lot. And there's a lot of trauma in that that I know is connected to what we're talking about today. But to me, there's so many experiences in my life that I've been working through with therapy and what have you, that some of those experiences where I didn't say no and said yes led me to find more of my sexual identity. One of those experiences was ending up getting a woman pregnant and having no ability or no choice in the matter. And then when the kid was to finding out the kid was alive. Yeah. And then not even medium until he's three and. Now he's. 12 and he's. 12 going on 13. And so but some of those times where I couldn't say no led me to have experiences that I probably wouldn't have had if I could say no. Yeah, and that's not a good thing. But but every opportunity we can live in regret, I think regrets important so we can fucking learn from things and then we can really make the best out of our choices to our past. When we want to go back to our past and deal shit, I like to really spin it and manipulate it for me in a way where I'm honest, but I'm using it as a way to grow and find more of my identity. And so that experience where I didn't have choice and ended up with a. Kid. Scarred me. Very damaging. Extremely scary. Very, very, very, very scary. And then there was other experiences where ended up I hooked up with a man for the first time. He and so, so scary in a completely different way. But the freedom, the growth I had from that first experience going through the guilt and feeling so alone and trapped was magnificent. That growth. And I still didn't know my bisexual. I didn't know my fluidity of this. Like the I'm all over the place at times, you know, until still way later in life. But those it well those are the experiences where because. Of. My ability to want to like him coming out of the church and being like Nathan like one of the things I did was like, Nathan doesn't say no to experience. Because he. Was forced to say no his whole life. So I said yes a lot. And it was. Like, That's definitely I shouldn't have said yes. How you you took it and how you reacted is everything I said no to. I have say yes to that. Yeah. It's like, how am I supposed to learn. Yeah. And dad would say, you know, some people learn by, you know, just listening, not having to experience it themselves. And I was like. That's not me, not me. Money. And so now in my life, I'm learning how to. Learn. By listening. Baby, I'm so. Happy to be here because he finally we have agency now. And I don't drink. It's been two years, you know, so it's like two years in January. That helps a lot with control. And because all of these stories of the past. Alcohol was involved with, by the way. All of them. Totally. I mean, I mean, alcohol is is a very intense drug that can really ruin lives. You finish it's suppression. It suppresses all of the bad shit. And if you're thinking of the match, it is I'm anxious to talk to these girls and I to block out fucking have sex with them. You're missing. So much. Yeah, I mean dangerous. I also don't. Want to talk bad about being young and partying and having fun. I like there's a lot of experience there. That taught me a lot, too. I just wish. How many times did you hear this growing up? I, you know, I wish I knew what I knew now when I was your age. I do wish I knew what I knew now at 17. Yeah. I really do. And I think the big point that I keep trying to make. Is we could have. And and I'm I'm not trying to say like, I want to change our path and accept my life. No, I, I accept where I am and I love who I am and I love who you are. And it's the reason why we're powerful and what we're doing. But when I look at the people around me who weren't raised the way we were, they don't struggle with guilt after sex. Why would. They? So then, like. You know, in talking to them about, they're like. Let me flip the question. Understand, not interrupt. Limitless is flip because I know we have so many questions we could react. But I think this is a great way to finish this conversation. Because. I had such a different experience. And I think what you were trying to get at, I know how you can over talk and express things, but basically what you just asked me at the end of what I was saying was, do you still struggle with guilt after having sex or with sex? And it's literally that question is like the opposite for me. I feel. Guilty if I'm not having sex with my. Partner, literally. Like I feel there's something wrong in her and I go too long and she agrees. Yeah. So I've met my man. I've met somebody that is on my level. Sexually, Right? And but even before that, I never, ever I never really did feel guilty, you know? And once I got over the hump of that youthful 17 and 18, 19, 18 years old. So the question to you, my friend. Do you still deal with sexual guilt? I'm no, I do not. And that's it, folks. But that's a very recent thing. I didn't stop. Recent. Very recent. So we started this podcast. This podcast really opened up and I was guilty because of my upbringing, not because I was doing something wrong. And I didn't I couldn't even consciously understand the guilt. I mean, and being raised the way I was, it's like that's the only thing I can think of is I'm guilty because I'm not supposed to be doing these things. And most of my twenties was guilt that I would just suppress. And so it's I've chose to be a sexual being. I've chose not to follow the religion I was raised in. And this is what it comes with that comes with guilt because how do you get over it? And that's the way I was living until we sat here week after week talking about it. Hearing your trauma, hearing my trauma and really me learning that that I am guilty because of my trauma, not because I'm guilty, not because I'm doing anything wrong. And as simple as that is man doing it on this case, talking about it on this cast has allowed me to just really accept that I am my own person. I have agency and I love who I am and like actually accepting that and moving forward and it has now led me to I am not guilty after sex. I So it's. Recent. Yeah. And so that will find one how frickin beautiful night and. Yeah because I. Have been growing a lot because of our conversations we talk about it almost every time. Yeah. But I know that you and I are on wildly different. However, this can be said like we're wildly on wildly different sides of the spectrum in terms of time and our personalities and characters. And so we healed differently and we've struggled from different things and hurt and different things and rise above things differently, whatever, and approach life differently. And so are you like in your I guess some of these questions are so vulnerable, like in our relationship now, Do you find yourself struggling with being sexual with your partner, even though you're not like if not having a sexual guilt is a recent thing? Has that been that's been since you've been with your partner now and fiancee. It would. It would present itself a lot more as I need to have sex, then I need to have sex. Then I'm in like the guilt kind of feel that for me. And I didn't understand my drive for sex because it was like any other boy. And you are like I said, you're horny mind. It's like I think that presented itself a lot more in my twenties that that's what I was supposed to be when really it was I was addicted to like this feeling of pain and anxiety and guilt and it made me feel alive. And and then the second you take that away, you're like, let's talk about our sexual relationship a little deeper. You know, you start to have these conversations and it's like I can. Finally grow and work on. Actually, you can, you can work on it. And so that leads to different relationship issues. And I'm not saying I have a perfect relationship, but the communication has gotten a lot easier when it's like, Hey, I'm starting to realize that. The last like. Because the person I'm with I was with through a lot of this sexual trauma and I want to say sexually, but just not understanding that I was traumatized and now engaged to the same person. We have kind of grown together. And I've been able to communicate and we've been able to pinpoint the different different aspects of our sexual relationship that were directly like, I'm guilty because of this, I'm guilty because of that. I reacted this way because I wasn't understanding. And now it's just a more open communication. Not that there's not problems. Every relationship has problems, but it's just that I think realizing that my religious trauma affected me in certain ways and being able to pinpoint it on this podcast, that one in particular I have noticed where it's like, Oh no, like the door opened and I was okay to be a sexual being after. I admitted that I have trauma from it. It was good because. Man, like religious trauma is a new thing we've talked about on this podcast quite a bit. It's, it's very new age therapy and, trauma and recognizing it and then being someone who suffers from it. Just putting a name to certain things lets you overcome it. And that one in particular putting a name to the fact that I was sexually repressed and there's a lot of people that I was around that weren't raised the way we were and didn't have such a fear of sex and a fear of love. I like as much as I wanted love and sex, I feared it so much because it was so bad. It was so bad. It was taught to me as it's the worst thing to do because they just don't want you to have sex teach tunes. Negative way. And it took me this long, man. Fucking 30 years to get to a point where I'm like, I'm a human and I have sex, okay? And it's like, Whoa, it took that long. It took me a really long time. To. Be okay with it. And I'm really happy I'm not 40 and that how. Yeah, yeah. 40 year old. Virgin makes a lot more sense now. Don't it? Yeah. It's not. That doesn't make sense to me. All doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't for both for anybody. I just don't get it. Like even with all that trauma, it's like you're going to, you're going to get it right. You can figure this out. You figure it out. You're going to you're going to try it out. Once you give it a go, put it in, you put it in there. Would you think. Would you say then, because we are different in this way, would you say that you are growing in a healthy way in your sexual personal life for yourself? Final Yeah. Is that showing positively into your relationship? It is. Oh man. I'm blessed. My eardrums. That that's a really. Good note to end on that if you're watching this and you think that you're looking at two boys, you're wrong. We don't know what we are. No, I'm just kidding on that. It don't matter how old you are. It doesn't matter. What? Like how it. Or. I'm sorry, It doesn't matter why. You're right. Ultimately, it's. How can I figure myself? And we are both figuring ourselves out in very different ways and helping one another as brothers and as just human beings thank the gods and our differences. And we're very different in this way. But we both went through very similar sexual traumas in terms of the church and repression. And it's fascinating to me how different we turned out sexually. And now that you're here guilt free, you know, sex, living rent free up in Zach's head as the Gen Gen-Z years would say that it sounds like you're on Mike you're you're in there in this, like, new growing stage of your life sexually. And you know what happened to me, baby? Look, just get me, okay? I think enough to make a joke, but, like, now. I think that our sexuality, this is like that question because we're talking about relationships. And for me, like so much of my sexual identity as I've become more and more guilt free in my relationship and all of these things and my, you know, like things have started to grow and change in ways for the both. Of us. That I never could've imagined. And I feel like I'm constantly getting closer and closer to the source. That's just the truth of who I am. Free to be it. Yeah. And my partner is a supportive person when I'm attracted to these things in the real world because there's like 8 billion people and she's attracted to these opposite sexes or whatever. And we were able to have conversations that are so. Human that ultimately. At times can bring up insecurities. We address them and we feel at peace and free to be with each other. Sexual beings trying to figure this out. Who we are. And we I think we're figuring it out a lot. And it sounds like, you know, after 30 years, you've made it to like figuring that. You got to really figure that out. Yeah. By just being alive. And like with your partner, learning how to be at peace with the. Process of having healthy. And productive and spiritual and mental. Sex and like. All of what it means to be with a partner, your sexual partner, and to be a sexual person. That's awesome. That's great. Thanks, man. Now it feels good. It feels good. And that that's one of the few things that this podcast has has healed, actually one of the many of these podcasts, you know, But that's one that's like blatantly like, No, no, that opened like a weird door for me. Yeah. Where I just could accept myself. And we've talked so blatantly on this cast. Like if, if you've made it this far. Thank you. You can go back and like last or No, I'm sorry. This year it was like April, May or whatever. I shared a lot about my sexual identity growth. After that retreat, I had an experience as me and my fiance Megan have shared together and and so, yeah, this has been a good conversation. It's just it's funny because I in my head, this whole time we've been talking, I'm thinking like, what haven't I said in the past and this whole conversation has been very different. It has been very different. Well, I mean, we've never actually gone into I don't think we've talked about sexual repression. There's just so much more we can talk about. And it's scary because it's like, oh, man, this isn't like it's hard to talk about because. I can. Already do 100% already, like just the first 40 minutes of this podcast. I'm like, Dude, we just talked about our sex lives. It's not really dead. And it's like we didn't like we could have gotten way more into the church and it's like, it's really hard not to use examples and talk about, yeah, our relationship life and our growing up and the poor choices we made, which led to better choices, which led to learning because it's like this is all part of the trauma. And if I had agency at 17 and felt more comfortable in the family and more comfortable in my community, I don't think I would have made a through D to learn f you know, and I think that's kind of what I'm learning, which is kind of leading me to another point I wanted to make. I learned this Gen Z phrase, and that is just fucking beautiful, man. Okay. And on as let's let's go to the game came out of this. And Gen Z they just we we did they're Gen Z slang for a really long time they just have such good language. That's right we did and I don't remember if we did design if we did. I didn't process it the same way, but I've been very much trying to Stop worrying about the future. Stop worrying about the past. You are who you are now. The present scheme within thing matters really, like in those last years and really focusing on that. Even if you're in pain, even if life's not the way you want to be, this is what it's supposed to be. And the Gen Z quote is it's for the plot. And so no matter what happens in your life, it's for the plot. And so you're going to go try something new and it doesn't work out. It doesn't matter if it doesn't work out, man, that's for your plot. And it just like hit me in a weird way. It's like, right now I'm going about to start a bio chem degree. I never thought I'd ever do. I feel, Oh, no, all the student loans I'm going to build doesn't matter for your plot. You'll figure it out later. It's for your plot. It's like I see what you're saying. Oh, I didn't figure out I was sexually repressed until I was 30. Yep, it was for your plot. Now you can talk about it on a podcast. Be open about. It. Yeah. This is your story. It's story like. We said last week, and we've said so many times, like the Gen Z, we think this is your plot. And like another way is, you know, this life is happening for you. Yeah, it's a gift. Yeah. So you use it, learn it, yeah. Cherish it, have gratitude, be thankful and recognize every day, every second, every millisecond that there are eight plus billion other people's plots. See that this is a gift. The gift for us all. And you're just another version of everyone else, and I'm just another you. And so the. Beauty of. Healing and being able to learn your own sexual identity without guilt and shame, I believe, is getting closer to the source that we are all one and we're all in this together, that we're all just human beings and we're animals. Everything on this planet. Is just. Me. Another heartbeat. Yeah. The beautiful heartbeats. Some don't even have heartbeats. Maybe. And in that process, for some. For a lot of us, especially with the. Insane capitalistic sexual culture we live in and how everything capitalized, everything we're talking about, it's capitalized on so perfectly for us to be obsessed, sussing over it, buying it, putting money into it, seeing it everywhere we go. Yeah, yeah. We're just talking about this from 230 year old, you know, humans coming out of the Christian evangelical church and what and how we're trying to figure out more, you know, our sexual differences and how that's looked. And yeah, well, well, well, we've made it to this. Point again. Zachary, great conversation and really intense. No, it was it was we knew we were talking about sex is intense and there nothing better than I want to do after talking about sexual repression from religious trauma, then play. On the game girl game. Cam here in the moral camp. Our guys really believe in connecting with your inner child. And part of that child is playing Mario Kart 60. Four together. After these long conversations. Why? Because after the church of our youth, we would come home and we'd all play Mario Kart. Together, or I would watch you play Zelda. All right. And it was that Zelda on my own together, right? And this is the. Six point hours, which means we've played all four battle matches. Our battle maps. Six. Six times is the six time going through all of them again. We did the big donut the last time. Yeah, but you won. And I won. And I mean, I've been winning more the last few castes. No, no, no. You won the last cast prior to that. I won last forecast. I thought I won the one before that to now once again. You did? Yeah, you did. You won the last two, don't you? Even because I lose Skyscraper, everyone is crazy. I was crazy for the last time. We played block for two, which we're going to play tonight. We had like a 1517 minute. I know, I know. In the last two game has. Been quick Yeah. So all right somebody can you give me princess. Peach. I'm never peach. Be it I. Want to teach game will be. Yoshi All right. I'm Dick block for six point. Oh and boys. Girls and the A's in them. And all of. Them Three, two, one. Let's go. Calling and follow me if you want a box to In a box one a box And where you go. And watch me get rich and I'll give you. That's not at all. You have found that ghost doesn't do. You do not want to go? Doesn't Do you know I already got things I don't want Best out of. Three here on the Moral Combat. Podcast. Oh, are I? Of course. You got to start. Oh, you just went around that corner. So sneaky. I was very sneaky. You to try to get me. Yeah, okay. You can try all you want, Mr.. But. And I'm bombarded, I'm bombardment and then bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. Wow. I'm getting some lame drops right now. I thought he tried to shoot that red. Shell, but I had one of those explosive boxes on. My team. I thought I was going to be. Able to get around using our green shell here. The red shell someone's got. This is going to be another long game to at this level. This is not a problem. Like it's. Just it's just it is. A problem. It's a lot of editing on my part. On your part, actually, you do the get number. Okay. Okay. You can start taking some bigger risks here or else we're never going to have asses business. This level is the longest level. It also is my favorite. Come on, man, I want to trail you. Answer it. Turn around, Turner. Turn around. Oh I like that. Oh. Oh, shoot. That's not a snap. Oh, no. I hit myself with the green jacket. You did huge. I needed that, too. I was. I was really hoping I did. I really. Needed that. You needed that. Here we go. I'm going to come up behind you right now. You're going to. Jump. Don't read shelter, read Shelley's play. You're up top. You hit me right now. If you want to. Bummer. I'm okay. I fail. Okay? It's like. I don't. I don't. I don't care. I'm minutes. I'm going to smash. You're just not use. Met his. Match you Are you coming for me? Oh, right. Yeah. What is that? Yeah. Oh, yeah. You deserve that. Sounds great show. Yeah, you deserve all of that. That was boring. Yes, I was trying to reverse from the green. If we had. We both had three shells. You. We hit each other normally. That takes both balloons. You hit me, spun me out. You didn't lose blue. That was some. B.S.. You know, that was brilliant. But I can't. Believe how zero. Green shells got. Me. Oh, yeah, you would have got me. Sue. Why'd you. Right. I went left, right, left. You throw this one over. Where do I want it came. I get that box. It's not looking good. Oh, this is really not good. Oh, you don't, you think? And you waste. That star, baby. Oh, snap. Oh, oh, snap. Oh, snap. Oh, snap, Oh, snap. Oh, snap. And my goodness. Oh Plane super well-played. No, no, no, no, no, no, man, I need some spin. Move There. You're not going. Million. Come on, buddy. Come on, buddy. He did. That at the. On a star level or whatever it is. Oh, my goodness. You're still. I thought. You left. Oh, just hit my own bar. Oh, I just saw that half your double header. Oh. Oh, oh, This is bad. This is really bad stuff. Not good. Okay, I got one balloon left outside of three. That's. I mean, if Zach. Takes this, he gets in now, and maybe. Right now I'm in a very good position. Nate has one balloon. I have three. I won the last round, so all I got to do is just like, I can suicide mission and just. You know how you just lucky sometimes you're entitled. Six Shoot me, huh? Yeah. And mode, three balloons, six shells. A future month is going to chase me. You can't keep chasing me, bro. Go. Ha! I did. No, man. Yes. So I lost two balloons. This game by going in reverse because I couldn't. There's nothing else I could do. That was a really funny way to lose. Do it. If you so like powerfully. You didn't want him to star like, Oh, no, no, no. I said, I'm not going to lie. That was a. Hard game for me. That was You were that you were. I made some dumb decisions. In last last. Game in you played like. I think it says map. I do. In this map a bit. This map is. Stressful for me. You know and you're stronger and the big done. It to really get it to be the. Only one that's an even match where it's like. One of us is going to be a. Skyscraper. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then also I. Do think you have. To just from our childhood because you were always good at what's the one after this. Double deckers, I wonder. Yeah. You always beaten on that one. It's there's something in the back of my head that when we get into it's like I know if I focus I'll win. But I just somehow it mess something up. But Skyscraper is always. The London game. That was a fun one. Echo garage on the OC. Looking at the podcast Central Clock right now we are at 96 minutes. Yep. Not not bad. We don't go that long anymore. Yeah. And we're pushing it this time. We are. And I'm going to edit it. You know, you normally don't. You let the rawness be, which is good. I love Raw podcast. No, I was using them like crazy. I just don't take anything out. Exactly. And I think that some podcast probably. Do you mean I take. Stuff out if we. Like the in shit if we think. If Yeah. I mean I'm taking certain things out. Yeah. But I don't know. I feel like there's some of these podcasts are like 4 hours long, dude. They don't take it. They're not take you thing out. They're just talking, you know, for sure. And so that's part of our I'm just like, there's nothing to take out. Our conversations are like, Lily, when I listen to them, I was just like, No, no, I made sense. Yeah, that's where we're making connections here. Yeah. We're not, like, perfect this. Yeah. Yes. Perfection is around the corner, though. Well, that's it, folks. That's all we got for you as our. We've been doing our Easter eggs at the end of each episode. Does it heal our new segment where we go to different businesses and try to figure out if their modalities of healing work for our US is coming out soon? Yeah, and it's very fun. Very first one. And we did tease a little bit on our Instagram. And you're one of the good ones so that yeah, you're one of the good ones. The good ones. Thanks everybody. Yeah, Thanks for being Zachary. You didn't been great talking about. Sexual repression with you. Yeah, like. I see everybody next week in the Empire.