Jonathan Garza Embracing Identity Beyond Religion | Ep 63 | Moral Combat

In this revealing episode of the Moral Combat Podcast, Jonathan Garza shares his deeply personal journey of growing up in the Seventh Day Adventist (SDA) church, a life thoroughly intertwined with its doctrines and community. From a young age, Jonathan found himself questioning the church’s claim to hold the complete biblical truth, a skepticism that grew as he matured. His story takes a poignant turn with his parents' divorce, an event that, as a church leader's child, brought him embarrassment and a sense of needing to hide the truth. College years brought a significant personal revelation as Jonathan first identified as bisexual, only to temporarily retreat into the closet, under the pressure of his religious upbringing. Eventually, Jonathan fully embraced his identity as a gay man, a decision that led to a gradual but definitive distancing from the Adventist church, catalyzed by the conflicting narratives of being gay and Christian. This transition wasn't without its challenges; Jonathan lost many relationships from his church community but maintained a close, albeit complex, bond with his mother. Her gradual acceptance, though not complete affirmation, of his sexuality highlights a journey marked by struggles with perfectionism, sexual repression, and a deep-seated need for external validation - all legacies of his religious upbringing. This episode poignantly captures Jonathan's struggle to reconcile his faith and sexuality, navigating external judgments and internal conflicts, while nurturing the enduring love between him and his mother.

Moral Combat, hosted by siblings Nathan and Zach Blaustone, is a heartfelt exploration of life's complexities, with a primary focus on healing from religious trauma. Step into their world as they navigate the realms of music production, confront the lingering echoes of religious trauma, and embrace laughter as a universal healer. With each episode, Nathan and Zach weave together their unique perspectives, seasoned with dynamic personalities that make every discussion an engaging adventure. From unraveling the complexities of personal growth to fostering open communication, healing the scars of religious indoctrination, and embracing the unfiltered authenticity of siblinghood, Moral Combat is your passport to thought-provoking conversations, heartfelt insights, and the pure joy of shared moments. Join us in the combat for morality, one conversation at a time.

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Transcript

0:01

EE ee ee o. ho, ho, ho! Ho, ho, ho! Merry Christmas, everyone. What's up, Mortal Kombat fans? What's a Mortal Kombat fan? My name is Nathaniel Bluestone. And I am Zachary Bluestone. I'm one of your hosts. And I'm the other host. Are we related? Somewhat. We have a very exciting special announcement to make today. We do. Do we talk about anything before that? No. No. It's too awkward because they're sitting right in front of me. Precisely. I'm coming to you live in studio. If you're in studio with us, which is just the three of us. So it's not live if you're watching this now. Our first in-studio guest, the one, the only Jonathan Garvey and Anthony. Hi, guys. Hi. How's it going? It's going fine. How are you? Fantastic. Very happy. To have you. Here. Thank you for having me. This is exciting. It's only. Been in the works for. A. Yeah. No, I mean, Nathan mentioned it to me. I don't even know how long ago, but it was a while ago. Just a minute. I think it was in the summer. Right now, it's. I think this is being posted a few days before Christmas. Yeah. And so. Merry Christmas, everybody. Happy holidays. Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas or happy holidays. Because on the Mortal Kombat podcast, we know Merry Christmas. No, no. This year is birth. We say happy holidays. We respect all religions. Our quiz. More like coming in, come out. Who is more to educate us? Usually. We're already learning something. There's a clip out there somewhere of thinking that that it's silly. You can look it up on this. Quick message, but you, too. Yeah. I like Christmas with the kill. This is the Mortal Kombat podcast. We are a podcast that mostly talks about religious trauma. Both Zachary and I were born and raised in the Christian evangelical church. And so you might be wondering, why is Jonathan Garza, who is Jonathan Garza, why is Jonathan Garza here? Well, Jonathan, why are you here? Why did you even say yes to be on this podcast? It's about religious drama. Great question. Well, why I'm here is, you know, there's this thing that happens when two people get married or maybe not, and then they have a night together and then nine months later, here I go. Wow. That sounds pretty special. I get it. Like you were born. I was born, you know, like. Like Jesus on Christmas Day. my. God. Yes. Yes. So you're saying that I just equate myself. Are you saying that your mother was the immaculate mother? Mary, I guess you have to say her mother's name or just call her Mary tonight. She's a sweet little lady. You are kind of. Her name is not Mary, though. In my life. And as I've known you, you are very much the Jesus Christ. Love it. Yeah. Wow. Absolutely. We've got to think about it. What did Jesus do? They cruised. They sacrificed their life for the rest of humanity. And you are our first in-studio guest. It feels like you're sacrificing yourself to be here today. We really appreciate it. We do. I am more than happy to be here. It's very, very exciting. Fidgety. So just, you know, if I need to stop fidgeting, tell me. Do what I. Do. Be you. The more you are you, the more it's going to be unique. And I feel fidgety right now. I'm nervous. I'm nervous as fuck. Yeah, I'm fidgety every time we start it. That's why we like for the first ten or 15 minutes, we just shoot the shit and we don't talk about anything serious because it's kind of hard to get into like the headphone space too. Sure. But, you know, you'll get comfortable once we get into it. That was my question that you just answered. Certainly was. I don't know if we could like how much I could curse or not. So we get Shadow banned on a regular basis. We talk about this podcast, so you go ahead and say whatever the fuck you really fucking fuck. Yeah, well. Fuck. You know, it's something we've learned. We've tried everything. Yeah, we've tried to not use, we've tried to bleep him out and I think that ultimately there are most of the platforms are leaning to being more, you know, everyone friendly. Yeah, but it doesn't really matter when you're talking about things that these platforms I don't think really want you talking about. At least that's been our experience. And so yeah, anything really religious trauma, they're like, we're not going to show that anybody. Is getting like, fuck, it's getting a little bit better. It's getting a little bit, but. The more follow it, the more we grow, it's getting better. And that's, I think how we're going to like push against the algorithm is just to get people that are choosing to watch it instead of scrolling past it. Yeah, yeah. We, we, we've gotten over the whole cursing thing. In other words, you just be you tonight. Yeah. All right. Well, however you want to put yourself out there because you realize that this is being shared to millions and millions of people. Millions. We have a huge. Over the course of the next hundred years. Right now, maybe 25, 30 people will see this. And we thank you for watching this episode. Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas to those 30 people. All right. A little background. I know you met Jonathan through me, which I met Jonathan through your husband. My husband, which. Congratulations. You are very recently married. And you? my gosh. And then when I read that, that's a back. And it's okay. It's okay. Your husband's never going to see this episode is never going to live it. Now you're going to hear it. They definitely hear about it. He's like, annulled. Yeah, right. But anyways, I worked with your I've worked with your husband now for about six years. We're both registered nurses. You're a registered nurse. I am. And we work at different hospitals. Yes. And you can say online. I've an associate, Elina. She was up on the hill. Drive up there. It's like 45 minutes now. It's about like 35 in the morning and yeah, about 45 going back. This is wine country. And so where Jonathan works, it's about a 45 minute drive of beauty. So it is very. Each day you work, you drive about an hour and a half. Yeah, I do. Yeah. Saying it out loud. Really. You know, when is it in there that you've been there for about ten years. I actually just had my 15 year anniversary there. But do you drive long enough to where it's kind of like, whatever. Yeah, I mean, it literally is like the back of my hand, I think is always sorry that I'm going to see you, Ben is going to happen. And I'm like, like my daily thoughts on Winding Road up that wine country. Hill Yeah, I do get nervous when it's windy because it's like covered fully by trees almost the whole way. And I'm always like one day like a branch or a whole tree would just fall right on me. Well, on that note, we're so happy that we got you to record this episode before that happened. Yeah, Yeah. Well, the winter storms come, you know, wake me up. Obviously, most people are like, do this or some sort of prayer whenever they say something bad about this podcast, we just say, good luck. Yeah. Yeah. Hope for the best. And be with you. Yeah. Stay awake on the wheel. Things kind of do. Back before I was sober, I we've partied so much together and few times. Your husband was the sweetest, sweetest man at the hospital who just took me under his wing and was like, You're coming with me here and you're coming with me here. Did he train you? I think I followed him for all the epic stuff and, like, charting because he's, you know, a type very OCD fiend. Yeah, they really bounced me around. Wow. You. You don't know him at all. Okay. You said his name. I'm. I'll let you know. I think. I think I think now he's. He's traveled. We love you, Isaac. He's very. Thank you for creating this relationship between us. Yeah, baby. He said he's very like my OCD. Isaac. I mean, I think, like most nurses, these other nurses are pretty A-type personalities. Is Yeah, but Isaac is a perfectionist. Yeah, I do have to say, parting with you in your husband is, like, the most fun. Yeah, you guys have some of the best energy. But speaking of parties, we just had your Christmas party last night. Last night? I'm still in recovery mode. That's what my voice is sounding. I know. It's all part of the. Plan. We had a Zachary couldn't make it, but me and my fiance were there, and we had a 40. How many people was a 44? There was 44 white on the ornament exchange, but I don't know was that every single person there was I think there was more people, Yeah. My goodness. When you come to our house, it'll seem even more when you realize we were all in our living room, which was like not large at all. But it was so cute. No, it was fun. And you guys have completely remodeled your house. It's got the outside bar and like, yeah, lots of work, lots of landscaping. And it's fun, though. I mean, I think it's great back there because you remember like before, I know it's really not great. You have a you have a perfect dinner party. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. We should. Definitely have. Actually there some time for the moral combat, I guess. Yeah, totally. Gomorrah. Well, after party after pod party tonight. You. Right now. I'm back. We're coming up and we're bringing the camera. So. Yeah, I mean, you know, I got really, I think like when we first met, we connected on our past connection to the church. That was like the first conversation I think we had. I remember when you called me after you had that conversation with him, because it was like really soon after we started, like my religious trauma and you like, I think we have our first guest. Well, I'm talking about like over about almost six years ago, it was more the cast. Yeah. Like drunkenly mean. Jonathan. We're like, we connected on the fact that we both grew up in the church. Interesting. And you did music. I was going to say it started with talking about music because you said something about like deejaying or something, cause I think that was how we kind of like, at least on my end, was like, connected with you. Like, this person likes music. And I'm always kind of or have been looking for people to like, either play with or kind of inspire me to get back into music because I'm just not I haven't pursued that as an adult, even though I was again, the teenager did music and I did it in church for my whole life. Yeah, that's something that I found really tough, is that while you were in the church, you could jam with every everyone you could jam with like, I jam with them, a jam with them. Whereas you get out of church and it's like, I got to find some people to jam with. Yeah. Like who plays music around here? It's hard. Do you think Do you think there's like a connection to the fact that you were like heavily involved in music in the church? And then whenever the leaving of the actually, you know, let's just go ahead and jump into, you know. Like that's what we were doing. That was the. Smoothest for us. But the jump in, I was going to say, do we want to leave these hats on? I might take mine off. I think I'm probably going to take my hat off to Bob. And then like, I can get the headphone fully secure. Yeah. So what was were you Baptists? What was the what were you born in? Were you born in the church? Did you guys say, all right, Yeah. Give us the speech. Yeah, sure. So I was born into the Seventh Day Adventist Church, I guess. Okay. My family, I think we were third generation. I think my grandparents parents were the one. So my great grandparents, I guess, were, you know, like teachers up in Washington back in the 19 tens and fifteens and then like I think a literature evangelist came through and like converted them to which us we don't know any seventh day Adventist history I everything you're saying or now I'm like. but we know all about the Seventh Day Adventist Church. We know about the facility. We rented y'all's buildings all the time. Yeah, Yeah. Because we were on Sundays and you're on Saturdays. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We see this as if this is the case now, but in the past, yeah. No, we had some the Well okay back. I'll get back to what I was saying instead of jumping around. You do whatever you want. Yeah, I'm kind of like we're just here to listen. Yeah. So I was born like third generation Adventist on both sides. Actually, I think my dad's parents were also Adventists like, for life. And I was very heavily involved in the church just because my both my parents were teachers at the Adventist School, the elementary school that I went to and went to Adventist High School that was down there in Monterey and then Adventist College over in Napa Valley. So every piece of your upbringing was Seventh Day Adventists. Every last piece called Well, well, okay, I will say that is a common like a common thing that people say about that. Vanessa Church And I think that was yeah, they used to use the C right for forehead because I think because of that being it's so like enclosed and encapsulated and I yeah, I mean looking back there's like obviously a reason for that, you know, it's like to keep everyone in as much as possible and to kind of keep everyone sheltered, blissfully ignorant, blissfully ignorant of the world, basically. But yeah, no, I mean, I had I had a great childhood. My parents did divorce when I was small. They separated when I was seven, started divorcing when I was nine and finish that when I was 12. So that was kind of. All when you were younger? when I was younger, that was kind of a little bit of a rough patch, just the whole like divorce thing being like in a Christian church where my mom was a teacher. So like a leader, you know, of sorts in the church to have them go through that. I remember I was very, like embarrassed and I was very, you know, people would ask me, like, why is your dad like in the church, in the church or like at school? Like kids would ask me, like, why don't we see your dad around? Around? And were they. Both as, like, strongly evangelical in the church equally? Or was one parent more strong than the other? I mean, I think my mom probably was stronger only because she stayed at the school. And then when they got married in the seventies, they both got hired at that same school and worked. My dad worked there for about ten years and then he moved on and became like an engineer and actually worked in Silicon Valley like. So I think this was already in the nineties. And what's already so interesting is like just already seeing the differences in your parents and their connection to education. So like in sometimes and his church. There is a connection. Education. Is there like are people more educated in the church if some of the events are like degrees IT Yeah I would say it definitely that is a big like focus right? It's like stay in school, get educated, get a degree so that you can go out and like help the world basically. So there's a heavy emphasis on like service also called my brain career. Career service, career choice. Right. So like anything like nursing, which is crazy because I work with a lot of seventh Day Adventist nurses. Yeah, yeah. Makes a lot of sense. Doesn't make sense make connecting those two are and I'm not somebody, Vanessa And that's why I'm a nurse, you know the way that connection so much as I've made that connection Yeah I didn't really know any other career to go into. Like I wanted to do psychology. Go figure. It was like my dad's a pastor. Yeah, It's like, I want to go to school. We talk to people. Yeah. Look at me now. Well, do you think that's why you became a nurse? Getting that was a big driving point. I think so. Well, kind of, yeah. I mean, I actually always wanted to be a teacher. When I was young, I wanted to be, like, just like my mom and kind of. Would you teach footsteps? I thought I was going to be in elementary school. She's just like, all around. Yeah. You could kill it. Honestly, I can tell you, even in elementary school. There's still a part of me that things like maybe one day, but my gosh, I'm doing, like, nursing education now. Yeah. Which is my entire life. Well, there are a bunch of kids solid apart. Same thing. But they're just kids, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think it'd be fun. I think I have a lot of untapped things in my soul, in my heart that I can do if I put my energy toward it right. Good for all of us. You know, these dreams and aspirations. Yeah, but I'm sorry. I don't think I answered your question, though. I totally. Forgot. We were talking about how we were asking about how each parent was more one parent, more religious, or maybe. That you were saying your mom was maybe a little more religious than your father? Yeah, I think so. Unable still religious. They are, Yeah. My mom definitely more English is so limited, sometimes more traditionally, I would say like she's a little bit more I don't want to say the word like stuck in maybe her ways of thinking, you know. But at the same time, she's also been really like opening open and accepting, I was like, and I over the years. So, you know, I don't I don't want to say that too much, but my dad religious still, but his family, his background was a little bit more traumatic like as a child, I won't go into that. But he has always been a lot more questioning of kind of everything, like he's kind of one of those people who is always like hated Western medicine, very resistant to which of course, interest. Now, unfortunately, he's like has been know states where can you see he's kind of stuck with it unfortunately kind of odd how those all those things come back around but anyway so he he's more I would say he's less religious and he's more just wants to be like a godly man. And he I think he has a lot of guilt and stuff from the divorce and that whole situation that happened with my family back back then when that happened, a lot of stuff happened in his family and his subsequent families. That has has really made him a lot more. Yeah, it just like opened emotionally to us and which I, I love. Sounds like less ignorant. Yeah. Yeah. Less ignorant. And and actually he was the only person in my family that has said that he thinks that me being gay is a good thing. So that's like kind of a more recent special little like wow moment for my brain to hold on to. So. So basically what you're saying now is that there's been some pretty amazing healing maybe with your parents or like in your relationship with them was there why okay. So like you're in the Seventh Day Adventist Church, your parents split when you said you were seven or 12, which has its own traumatic consequences. Right? And so when was it exactly that you like departed from this idea of being this religious? When did that happen? The Seventh Day Adventist? Yeah, well, I honestly, I think it's still happening. I think it's a current work in progress. I mean, I'm definitely like farther along in that. But I I'll say after college when I came out, like fully when you came out after college, I came out after college, I kind of did a little late Bloomer Yeah, I came out to like a close friend, even when I was like 19. Okay? With like, that I was bi and then I was had, you know, feelings for men, but I also had feelings for women and, you know, Is that true? Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Okay. Well, I don't know that. I mean, I personally, for me, I was saying bi as a self like protection thing because I, because I didn't want to admit that I was gay, because that and I'm sure we'll come back to this point. But that was something that, that was like, I'm not going to be saved if, if I choose to be gay. So I'm going to choose to like, put my energy and my emotions and, and love into someone who I think is acceptable to the church or to how I am supposed to feel. So I kind of did that soft coming out earlier. And then I, like, fully went back in. Well, I say fully went back and no one else was believing it. Shocker. They're like, you know, like you're dating only women. Like, I'm just straight. Yeah. And I did. I did that woman, a really beautiful, great girl in high school. This is college called College. I was just. Well, yeah, we'll come back to that. Sure, sure, sure. I was. I think she and I got on really well, actually, looking back, because I look a lot like my mom. No shocker. And I know. Stunning, stunning revelation. But she was great. Well, she was wasn't there And and. we were so perfect. I know you had a what have you done? 13 months together. Wow. You broke my heart. Did you really? In the dorm lobby? I was like, cry, baby. my God. Saved you. 1000 in person. Yeah. I like, I am so grateful to her to this day because. Yeah, she like, Well, yeah, her, her reason was, you know, I can't ever be confident that I'm enough for you to like to meet you because I told her like three weeks then that I was, that I was by again. That was the narrative of the time. Which is a huge like no no for people who are either in the evangelical or at least for the faith. We were raised in similar 20. Yeah, yeah. I mean, like being any LGBT like anything. Yeah. Is yeah. Like not not okay okay You know again like you're you're choosing that life and you're choosing to live. Vincent at the time, this was my bad. So these two, like, religious empty date, Venice ex-partner of yours, Like when you were much younger, would be more accepting or be okay with you being bi rather than it being like. That's why you would say that, right? Like that, really a safety. When you were with them, did you love them? Yeah, totally. I was totally in love with her. I mean, I think, you know, as I've gotten older, I've been more comfortable with accepting and being like, That's not the word I'm like, Yeah, I guess accepting and more open with like, my strength because that is something that's in ism and maybe in other denominations too. There's a pretty big denial of self that is promoted. You know, it's kind of like frozen, you know, like conceal, don't feel anything, you know. And so while I totally lost where I was going with that, yeah. So it was I think what you were getting at is that like it was you, there was no ability for you to be truthful with who you what you were feeling or what you were, because all of what you were raised with was denying that truth. Yeah. Projecting yourself right. So what I'm hearing. Yeah, because I. Well, I. Yes, that, that is what you're hearing. Thank you. Which is identical to me out here. Which is identical for the way that we were raised. I don't even feel like I had a full grasp of my true self. I mean, I started to learn truths when I left the church, which was like 17, 18. But it all hit me so fast that like I was basing all of my experiences from a church upbringing. And so I was going into this like still thought the world was evil. I still thought I was better than other people. But even though I didn't think of it because I wasn't a Christians, I wasn't thinking I was better. I was like living still in this sort of like egotistical, narcissistic. I didn't even know who I was. I was just projecting what I'd learned from the church, but I didn't believe it anymore. And and so I don't feel like for me, I didn't feel like I started to really grasp my true self until, like, really like the last five years, it feels like, yeah, yeah, maybe I should. That's just. Part of deconstructing is like you can say you don't believe in the faith, but then to like actually take away that ego and to take away that like. Inner dialog. Better than everyone else you have, the truth is like something you have to realize you even have in the first place. And it's like so deep. It really is. And that is is one of and has always been, in fact, like, look at like when I think back to even being a small child that particular thing has always rubbed me wrong, probably because I was different as a kid. Like people, you know, I mean, I'm not going to say that I was like bullied or anything. I'm sure by nowadays standards, maybe that's what it was. But for me at the time, it was just like teasing, you know, they they call me girly or or call me a girl or and then in high school, you know, like they they call me gay or whatever, but from a small child, I that whole thought that like the Seventh Day Adventist church has the truth We are the ones that have the highest knowledge of of of biblical understanding and no one else where we're those hundred 44,000 are in the book of Revelation, like, that's us. We're the remnant. People know that's us. And what exactly, you know, that was. Us. And I always just like had such like, I mean, for as long as I can remember, I'm like, how can that be? Like growing up in a even though it was a small school thinking, like knowing how many billions of people are in the world at the time, how can how can that be like a literal number? How can that be that we are the ones that have like the absolute truth chosen people? Yeah, well, we had a we had a prophet, you know, like no other denomination. And who was your prophet with your prophet? Our prophets name was Ellen White. LNG White. why? He sounds like the whitest name we were heard. Yeah. Does it LNG white? Well, I got to be way you know this was the church was birthed I think in the second great awakening in American history so like early to mid 1800s and like huge focus on like health and wellness and service, which are attributes of the church that I actually still do really appreciate. Yeah. That's how they sneak into your soul though, as they do all this good work under this weird doctrine. It's yeah yeah that's like we could get so sidetrack. That's a great point that it's like the church does so much good, but it's just always normally, like with other consequences. There are some really. Impressive doctrine behind it. Right? Yeah. It's the intention of like, okay, we're going to provide this with the thought that will bring you in and indoctrinate you, I guess, you know, then you'll become a believer or. Yeah, we did it, We did it. We'll save you. We did it Well, save you from too. And you guys do missions trips. We did. But you know, I've never been on one. I know. I'm such a madman. Wow. That's about. Love it. Well, that it. Let me tell you, you missed out on a lot. I actually really did want to go, like, in college. But then I was in the nursing program and I was like, you know, Yeah, zero time for no time. Although there was always those kids in nursing school that went on these international learning trips. You had money. You had money. Yeah. really? Money. I'm solvent. Go on one, though. Our friend, Charity. You know, Charity. You know, she was on Charity. They do like she starts she started doing some like I forgot the the group that she goes west but like only like a medical mission trips I think that would be fun. I you know, what's so funny is ever since I've left the church, I've had this connection to the missions, this idea of traveling, getting out of your shell, getting away from your home. We have it so easy here. And I feel like one of the things I recognize coming out of the church was and of course, we've talked about so much on this podcast together, but like this idea of being a victim. And so it was like not only were you the chosen ones, but everyone's out there to get you and. Everyone thinks you're crazy. Everyone thinks you're crazy, right? And so, like, you're putting yourself out there into the world. Why was I even saying this? What are we just victims being? Yeah, but what was the thing they were talking about right before the mission? Their mission trips. Yeah. And so mission trips are all about the fact that you were like this warrior, the soldier. That's like traveling across the world and on the church's dime normally. So not only could you travel the world for free, but you're also doing the Lord's work while you're there. So you're saving people and you're. Only traveling to impoverished like the world. And so you already feel superior no matter what. Exactly. That's extremely validating. Yeah. As a human being, when you get to travel, get out of your comfort zone, see how the rest of the world works. But the most damaging part about what the church does is you you see, everybody else is lower than you because you're there to help them. So you go to impoverished places, you help build homes. Orphanages, and then. You do the play at the square for all the poor people that aren't white. And there was always this like connection to, like, you're the savior, the Jesus complex or whatever it might be. And so ever since, like, but that like desire, there's so much that came out of the church that's, that is really good and you can take from that. So I've always wanted to do like hurricane help or be part of like some sort of like what do they call like the you get like an email or a phone call if there's a natural disaster somewhere in the world and they have a call and then you go out and you. You guys should you both should you license nurses, damn. It. Yeah. But if you look really, you do it. You have to do everything on your own. Really? Yeah. There's no there's no organization out there that helps with, you know, getting nurses to help with disasters. I think there. Are, there's, there's some. But like really when it comes down to doing these things, you have like a person who runs the organization and then they like, get people all together and then you have like a meeting and it's like, Hey, how much money can be raised to get the supplies we need? How can you, like, build it on your own? It's not like there's people like, you know. How do the churches do it and they just have more money. This is what we're talking about. You know, a network of the church is fucking evil. Deeds is. Anyways. So Seventh Day Adventist, I'm just not familiar with like how similar it is to the way we were raised. Like, did you is prayer a big part? Is Seventh Day Adventist. Yeah, totally. Yeah. I mean, I think it's like any other Christian denomination in that, you know, you have like it's Christians who believe in Jesus, but for us we believe in the Trinity. I don't know if that's Yeah, we do. It's a very confusing, very confusing and. Only confusing for the the fellows that don't get it. Yeah. American born into it. I guess it's a very confusing three people in one easy mean obviously. Yeah. So I thought you said you said you guys believe in Jesus. Believe in Jesus. He wasn't the ultimate prophet. Or he he was our savior. So he came to die to atone for our sins. So then who was this other prophet you brought up? Ellen. Ellen White. Yeah. So she was just a like a founding mother of the church? No. Founding father. Founding mother or founding mother. Same thing, Mother. I mean, I already want to apologize. I assumed Ellen Dwight was a man, and I think that's really bad on my part because I, like, made that accent That was like a masculine accent. So it's Ellen and Ellen, not Alan. And how in Alan all and why so lng why it was okay so mother so as she was like a young woman who had visions coincidentally after being traumatically assaulted with a stone as a child and like disfigure, what do you need a seizure disorder to? You know, we're just going to not talk about that. God works in mysterious ways. Yeah, definitely. No head trauma, not a brute force, not a single thing. And what. Years? This this was like 18. Okay, so at least Lilith sixties. Okay, so she had some visions, and she has a lot of of written works that then helped basically form the church out of the great disappointment. Have you heard of that? Probably sounds a little familiar. It was in 1844 it was a group of this was pre Adventist church. Miller writes who thought that they had figured out the day in time that Jesus was going to return the second time. yeah, by doing math, nothing. The Bible went and October 22, actually 1844, is the Great Disappointment Day. Now you're so well-educated. I think you must. Be aware of anything. You learned it when I. I was also in a play called This Adventist Life that like, totally just did a little bit of this. Actually, now that I'm saying it out loud a little bit, a deconstruction of and commentary on the church. But that aside so Adventist church was birthed from obviously that didn't happen. We're all still here. Jesus didn't come take him away. The few people that remained like faithful, most everyone was like, okay, first, like we're done after that didn't happen. But the few that were left basically became the Adventist church. And Ellen White, I think married one of the people that was one, those like remnant persons. And then she started having these visions and writings and then the church just kind of grew from there. They unfortunately, I mean, there's definitely been a shift away from her because her writings are just so dated. I mean, you know, talking about like the secret faith, you get sort of secret base and masturbation and how like it would like grow hair on your palms. And like me, my line masturbating would grow hair on your hairy palms. I wonder what that would feel like masturbating. Yeah. You were told that as a kid. I wasn't just kind of so much. There was. It was more of like a like I was not told that by my parents. Okay. You feel like we're getting to the first repressed sexual trauma of the Seventh Day Adventists? Hairy hands, hairy masturbation hands because you were guilty. Like, I felt very guilty masturbating. Really? Yeah. I had a lot of guilt with that as a young person, which makes sense. And as we did, too. Yeah, I mean, it's tough, Nancy, being raised in at least two faiths that we know. And obviously now that you know. Yeah, not just masturbation is shunned for some reason. I feel like it should be praised so that you don't have sex. That's like the big thing. At least for us. It was like, just don't have sex free married. Yeah. And you'll be okay. Is it cool Then tell me to masturbate. 24 seven. So then let's talk about some guilt connection here. You felt guilt. Well, growing up, like masturbating was a guilty thing. Did you pray before you eat? Hey, we do every meal. Every meal. So when you're by yourself or not with your family, would you like with friends that weren't maybe Sunday in Venice? What would you help yourself to make sure you get your prayer in? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nailed it. Okay, how about I got my pen? What? I like devotions. Did you, like, read your Bible in the morning or. Yeah, we did. We used to have, like, family worship. Wow, that's kind of nice. We did have, like, some family devotional, like during the week. It wasn't so much, I think because my parents were like educators and they were also busy with our own jobs and stuff, raising three kids. And then my mom was a single mom, you know, kind of pretty young in my life. It was mostly contained like on the weekend and so on, on the Sabbath. So then seventh day. Yeah, Yeah. So Friday night at sundown to Saturday night, sundown is the Sabbath. What do you do on the Sabbath? Do not eat. We do not do. It's that's, that's, that's it's, it's what do not do. So it's like you don't go out to eat, you don't buy or sell anything. So it's like it's very like biblically based from like the Old Testament. You don't pass that. The capitalists hate that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That might. Rabbi, I'm. I might be. Why? This is a Christian country and not a seventh day Adventist country You see Christians by on Sunday. We watch football seven days a week. Seven days a week maybe. Yeah. Spend that money. So why not? Card So then your upbringing, you be in school Monday through Friday? Yes. And then you get home and be like, cool. I can't do much because now I'm in Sabbath. Yeah. So Friday was preparation day, which is when you cleaned the house to prepare for the Sabbath. Because you can't clean on the. Sabbath because you can't be in on the Sabbath, because it's very like, like it's Judeo Christian. Yeah. So it's very like, you know, Jewish. Hebrew based before the Sabbath was in our Bible, we just didn't follow it. It was more like, we don't have to do that for some. For some reason we just decided not to follow it. I actually don't know why the difference or what I mean, it's just different. Well, it's kind of like the picking and choosing of each denomination has their own little special thing that they've chosen. Some of the Adventists, this is one of the main ones, is like, we're going to follow the seventh day and we're going to follow it to like the letter of the law. You know what? But did we follow the law of like not wearing blended clothes? Certainly not. You know, like that whole, you know, all those like Leviticus. Yeah. And stuff. So then do you remember when you like, walked away and you were having like went out on Saturdays. Was it like crazy. that's the thing is like my because my mom was a single parent and my dad definitely like went away from the church in his second marriage for a bit. My mom kind of lightened up a lot in our in our teenage years. And so when I was in high school, like we started going out to eat on Sabbath, and she's been great in our lives, like as like more traditional and reserved. She's a very reserved woman, but very loving to us, but reserved just with other people, mostly. She really instilled a solid, you know, you make your own choices like you. You guys are your own people. You make your you know, you have your own relationship with God. I'm going to tell you what I think you know. But she definitely did. And still that was that. Even though, you know, maybe she I don't know. She's regretted that sometimes because we've all kind of like, done our own thing and Sure. And all kind of gone different ways. And now she's like, Dang it, I said it like I'm closer or something, you know? I don't think so. You know, she. Is not like that. But yeah, there definitely was though, a certain feeling of like who I am doing something wrong, like, is this wrong? But then you kind of like, like anything, you do it more and you kind of get used to it. But she's kind of since then, kind of gone back into more like she doesn't want to do anything on Sabbath and then on like rest or like go, like for walks in nature. And that was a huge thing. Growing up was like getting out into nature. On the Sabbath. On the Sabbath, that you couldn't. Do it, or you should do it. You should. You should do it. Yeah. Nice though. Yeah, it's really nice. Yeah. A little separation. Yeah. We went to the redwoods. Henry Cal State Park down in Big Basin area. Wouldn't driving, though, be, like breaking the Sabbath gas? I mean, it could be. Good point, Oil. Very good point. Big oil. You purchased the oil price, so you know you can fill up your. Mansions during the Sabbath. No, come on. Who knew about that in the nineties? Come on. It's like a classic family outdoor. And so I'm just really not going to go near the nineties. The world was. Coming up. He knew it. Looping back. Yeah. When you broke up with this girl and how she broke up with him. Sorry. Well, I know I just can't. I'm already changing your history for you. Yeah, but that's a very, very, very big point. Was the fact that you had your heart. I mean, everyone gets their heart broken in a breakup, and so this coming out of the closet slash. That's how I actually this deconstruction or whatever, you leave the faith and how you kind of mentioned that like this is a ongoing this has been an ongoing process for you in your life of deconstruction or the thought of being like, I'm not this, I don't believe this or what have you. And so I guess then your sexuality and that coming out, does that have a very direct connection to your coming out of the church as well at that time? Yeah, I do think so. Well, no, I guess I know so because I was told by someone basically they asked me, how can you be gay and and believe in the Bible? How can you be gay and and be a Christian? And my, my response at the time was, well, my belief is that everyone has their own relationship with with God, with Christ, Jesus, whoever. And, you know, how can he expect someone to deny themselves who they are and like having the greatest gift that we all grew up believing he gave us, which was love. How can you expect me to not have that in my life just because I am who I am and I'm and I'm gay? And that definitely was like a pivotal conversation that I had with this person and not that they know this, that that was such a pivotal moment for me, but that was like a that was a line. But looking back, I was like, okay, that a time from that point on, I definitely started being more open to not, not being a part of that identifying. Yeah, yeah. Because even after college, like, after I got my nursing degree, I stayed. I think I told you this and got a music degree. And then I stayed at the college town and was doing worship music like once a month, like leading it and after coordinating it after college for a couple of years and like still being involved in the music stuff there. And yeah, from that conversation on, I kind of definitely started retreating from that. I was still like so invested in it and so like a part of the community and you know, that was all the people that I knew were Adventist at that point. And then I met my lovely little sweet baby husband when we met online. So wait, so you're an EP? So then like who you're married to now, right? Like you're the love of your life. He was your first kind of out of the church friend. Wow. Yeah, because that really is like we were just talking about this. Our last episode was like, there's nothing scarier than, like, having that sort of awareness of self, right? So it sounds like what you were saying was you had a conversation with somebody where they were like, How can you be a believer if you're living this sin and you're like, good point. I yeah, I don't think that I verbalized that or had that direct thought at that point. I was actually very like kind of crushed and sad like, like that's a real bummer that, that I, that you feel that I can't be because I want to be like then I did I like desperately wanted to be because my whole my whole life was that you know, like from the time I was born to all my education and degrees and beyond was all that. And it was sad to, I guess, have that spoken to me. But it was like the seed that was planted to have some sort of self-awareness. Yeah. Even though and it was extremely scary, right? Yeah. I mean, I'm actually kind of grateful for that conversation, too, because it did allow me to give myself some space to be like, You know what? It's okay to to go off and discover who you are and to see what being gay is all about. Because I had I had no idea. I mean, yeah, I had certain things in my head of like, you know, like if I'm gay, I'm not going to do certain things. So they leave it at that. Like, you know, like, I'll do these things that I won't do if you zwirner gang, especially, I'm never going to do that. I'm never going to do here's here's a question. Did you did you look at porn growing up? I did. Yeah. I, I, I looked at gay porn mostly. Where you feel like guilty. 100% so much. Because what goes along with porn watching. Yeah. Masturbation I cleary porn Harry palms and blurry blind vision and the only thing worse for the church than Harry palms are gay rights and I just did that like you know, like there was like the like Yeah, that's right. What is that from the square? Guillermo del Toro Second movie. Pan's Labyrinth. Labyrinth. You're welcome. You're welcome. Shut up, dude. Just accept that. You've got it. What does that. So, how old were you when you had this conversation? And you were like, Should I stop believing this? Should I stop identifying this is. After college or after college? I was probably like 23. Okay, so still like the young twenties? Yeah. Okay, I backtracking a little bit. I did this was actually a positive thing of the church, I guess the pastor at the the college church that I went to, my ex-girlfriends really wanted to do premarital counseling for very obvious reasons. I mean, looking back, it was just it was more of an excuse to get the conversation going so that she could have it in her mind to break it off with me like she needed some outside in pellets. Yeah. Term because. Because we didn't love each other and we had like a great connection and we loved spending time with you. Anyway, that pastor actually told me he's like, you know, I with them, I think you're gay, you know? And he's like, and that's great. I love that. And no way. And I love you. He was super progressive and like, he didn't last too much longer. They're I think probably because of that. Yeah, not that specific conversation, but just his maybe aggressive values. That was that was unheard of in my experience. Ever. Yeah, still is pretty young. I was so pissed at him too. Like when he said that because I was like, my God, I'm not. I'm not. No I'm not, I'm not. I'm toxic and masculine fucker. Exactly. And that you're not helping my case here. I'm trying to keep I'm going to stay with this woman. Finally get. Married. Yeah. That was great. He's like, I remind me of, like. Of my my, my nephew, who I married to his husband, like, last week. I was like, wow. Thanks a lot. What a jam. How great it was. Thank you. Thank you, man. The gems of the church. Yeah, versus the guy. But I was pissed at the time. I don't know why I was saying that. You asked how old I was. I was 23 when that whole thing happened. I meant I was like when I was 25. So as a couple of years in there where. Yeah, I was just I was it was a very slow moving, I guess, beginning of my gay life, I guess, which for me, I mean, I'm kind of a slow mover, like, I'm kind of like my mom in that way, like a little resistant to change. I'm like a homebody, you know? I don't like to move around a lot. I like to be comfortable, really. So, yeah, we just I it was so the church was boring a little bit. And then you met online. Met online and met on. How long have you like together now? 12 years ago. Wow. Yeah. He beat us. Did he beat you? I don't know. How long you been with Alex? 42 years. A long time, I think. Old high school sweethearts. 42. But now it's been, you know, just a few years. The Bible gives us a lot of opportunity. You know. Everyone. Everyone knows what age I am right now is the same age Jesus was crucified 33, 33. No one can prove that. That's one of my lucky numbers I have met. So many ex Christians are people that that's the joke. They're like, How old are you? I'm 33. They're like, this is your special year, right? Yeah. You're going to make it like, I don't know. Yeah. If I make it past 33, I'm good. I'm good. Yeah. So was Jonathan your first? Everything. Isaac, I'm sorry. I was like, Was your self your first? Yeah, I guess. I guess, technically. When did you say you say so. That's a good question. To when did you fall in love with yourself? You know, that's a great question too. But Isaac was your first. No, he was on my first gay relationship. I kind of had one in in college. And in that little time that I was briefly out, it wasn't like an it wasn't official, but it was a in Adventist standards. It was definitely like we were like seeing each other and like, sneaking around in the dorm and, you know, fine how that sounds for a religious school to if it's to something even more fun. Yeah, it was, it was kind of fun looking back. And I was also desperate, so true. I don't like that isn't a good look. I don't. I don't like that. It's not an attractive look. You heard it here at all. Yeah. I think it's going to become a thing, though. Number one, rule of dating jeans. Please don't be desperate. Just go in and kiss. Don't beg for the kiss. Yeah. Just lean in and take the ring. You go. Yeah. See? You know what I mean? What's the worst I can do? Say no. Move it. Yeah, exactly. Move away and be like, my God, you got the wrong idea. This is not winner. Or they could just beat you. And then you could just gaslight them. We're like, No, no, I was just kissing your cheek. Yeah. You think I was going for your lips? Yeah. Yeah. That's a little presumptuous. Yeah. Okay. What was the question? I think we're just. I think we're. We're building the timeline, and I think that, like, what I'm learning just by your experience, because I'm getting to, like, a question that I wanted to ask, but I think you said it because this is like an interview of your experience coming out of your born into the church and yeah, so you're gay, so you have the act coming out of the closet. But then, like, there's so much more I'm imagining because that's a whole experience you probably had. But in this connection to like this really strict upbringing that you've had, right, this idea of religious trauma. And I think that like, it sounds like my experience going out of the church was like night and day. It was it was over a couple of years from like 14 to 15 where I started to really think out of the box I smoked weed and was like, God, this is no, I don't know. But I was like, I'm no longer Christian because he was quick, so quickly, so fast. And it created like a rippling explosive effect in the church and my family and then our family. And Zach was like very different. He was the youngest and long slow burn. And it sounds like that's kind of how your experience was. It was like a very like long process of finding yourself. And yeah, and within that process, these conversations, a pastor telling you that you're gay and you feeling this like crushing like one time. So there's a lot of like trauma totally in this time. That's like a very long process. And so then you meet the love who you're now married to. And I'm sure had, you know, that, you know, real love and real unconditional love is like one of the greatest experiences when it comes to trauma in my life right now. Healing. Yeah, but when you think of like this term religious trauma, like, have you heard of religious trauma before? You and I were talking about it in this podcast. Is that a term that you thought in your head? Never, never Interesting. 2011 is what was created. It's actually not at all really. Okay. Yeah. This is it's a newer I mean I think the psychology around cults and the psychology of cults and what happens to the children that are like born in cults or like stuff like that as there's a lot of research there. But yeah, this idea of like religious trauma syndrome is connection to, like post-traumatic stress disorder complex. Yeah, CBT, C, PTSD, and like, we've briefly like broken down some of it, but since you and I have been talking about it, do you think you suffer from religious trauma in your life now? I, I'll say yes again. English is kind of limited. I don't know that I would necessarily use the word suffer simply because I am very grateful for like my life and I'm grateful for, like, this type of conversation that, like, like you were saying has been a slow burn. I don't think I would have been ready to, like, meet Isaac if I hadn't gone through. I had if I hadn't had that conversation with the pastor or this other person who we had that discussion with. But Isaac and I, our our there's been lots of things like in our relationship, our, our struggles. So I guess in that way, yeah, we, I have suffered like in, in relationship struggles and in some of our arguments the way that I am, the way that I react to certain things. But you're perfect. Well, it's very that because I didn't see them as very like you have to be perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Like it's this whole, like, striving for perfection definitely has gone away from that as thankfully for, for the further young kids now. Yeah. But that was totally like a thing was like, you have to be perfect. Like, you can't even think something wrong. You can't have a dirty thought. You can't like, you know, undress someone with your eyes because you're committing a mortal sin. Yeah. Adultery. And it totally. And you know, that's in the Ten Commandments, right? And you're not going to be saved if if you're if you break any of those laws. And so some of the ways that I have reacted and been hard on myself have definitely stemmed from that whole idea of of perfection or I've really had to do a lot of deconstruction of like, sin. What is sin? Is there sin period? You know, like or is that is that just things that we as humans know are wrong inherently in our evolutionary journey as as beings like killing each other, you know. Right. No bad doesn't help our species grow if we're killing each other. But there's a lot of us on this planet. We consume a lot of shit, and that's becoming a problem. So it's true. It's dislocating. I know. You know, I don't ever know. Like, Yeah, your time of this idea of, like, right and wrong. What is it? And sin is like this special little thing that's like, kind of different than right versus wrong. It's deeper seeded, last longer. Once even you leave a religion. This concept of internal guilt and shame, I think it's like what you're talking about with perfectionism was so true in our lives and it's like black and white thinking there's really only one way or the highway. So everything outside of that isn't a one way. It's the opposite. And so, like every decision I made out of the church for many years, there was this feeling of like, if I was having sex, if I was drinking alcohol, it was like, I'm even though I wasn't thinking it was a sin, my body and mind were like projecting the sinner like. And I was always told, you know, the reason why you're gonna want to sin is because sinning feels so good. It's best feeling in the world to sinning. So yeah. And it's like, so you have this thing that feels so good, but you're told it's so bad. So once you leave the church, at least for me, it was like, I'm just going to as became like the world's biggest sinner is what it felt like. And I was like suppressing all of that guilt, but I just didn't need to deal with it anymore. And then it came up. But you're talking about in similar ways this idea of like a black and white thinking leaves you to either be like projecting something out of anger, which is about how I dealt with a lot of my insecurities and lack of perfectionism. Right. Or disassociating or however that looks, because you can't be no one's perfect. And so everything in my life out of the church became that issue black. Everything was still black and white. It was everything was sin. I was living in it. And that was also like reading, like everyone in the family. Not everybody, but everyone in the church made it feel that's who that's the center like. That's exactly what happens. The dead man. You chose death. Yeah, Like that's what's going to happen. I think so. I think religious trauma is easiest, at least for me since starting this podcast, because you could you learn about religious trauma for the first time. You're like, What's a lot? Of course I'm traumatized from the cult I was raised and, you know, I feel the way it feels. But then even just accepting that, it's like, Well, where is it now? I think that every time we've picked apart, like very specific ideas, like sexual repression, trauma, the trauma of still having to have prayer like in your head before you eat like it took me a really long time to get over the idea that I don't have to pray for you, you know? Yeah, but like, specifically, like something like sexual repression, because at least in our faith and I'm guessing it's the same with something awareness, it's just like repressed sexual desire until you're married. And if you're not married, you're not having sex. And that's like what we were raised with was something similar with you guys as well. Totally. Yeah. So it was very that almost exactly like you can't have sex outside of marriage. And if you do, that's a sin and you're bad, you're not saved. Yes. And you're living in sin. If you continue to do that. I think that's also maybe one of the things about being gay that maybe almost like sheltered me from that a bit was because I kind of had to in being gay, I kind of had to like, step outside of that already, you know, just to be just to be like, just to live as your truth. A truthful person in my body, like I already had to be like a sinner. A sinner, right? Like I had to accept that. Like I'm I'm a sinner in the eyes of of this. And I think having to do that kind of protected me from and allowed me to maybe step out and explore a little bit, a little bit more freely. Yeah, probably because that sounds so traumatic as it is totally coming to a conclusion, which I didn't connect more with my bisexual gay side until much later in life. But like last year to be exact. Just about 364 days ago that this that this feeling of like your truth, accepting this idea of where we start off is like self-identity and coming to the conclusion that it's bad, like just who you are. If that's really me then I was born bad, like I was in the eyes of everyone's born a sinner. And that's what we're told. But if you're not the Christian or if you walk away, then you are the definition of bad. Yeah, and that's complete. You have to completely deny your upbringing to accept yourself, which is extremely scary and traumatic. Yeah. So I think something that's special about your case, though, about being a gay man in the faith is that was the worst thing you can do, at least in our experience. Our experience, it was like there's sinning, there's so much terrible you can do, you can be forgiven. But the gay war and I have to send you to a camp to get that out of you. It was just like the worst. And it's like, I think the trauma there is just a whole different level. Yeah, I again, thankfully was sheltered from that. Like, I never I never had that experience of, of someone trying to get me to go to a camp or a conversion therapy or anything like that. Did you see anyone or had friends or anyone that you knew that had to go through that? Not that I know of. This girl I know of. Yeah, maybe. But I don't. But I. But I'm not sure. Yeah. Unconfirmed. Unconfirmed. Someone from high school. But. Yeah, but haven't kept in touch with that person. But what Nathan was saying like it, it was definitely like. Yeah. I mean, I guess that has had repercussions in terms of just my relationships with like people from my past is I don't really have too many of them anymore because just because of that, because I, I pulled away because I felt like I couldn't stay in it because I was gay, because I chose to live this life. You were no longer a chosen. Yeah. You weren't one of the revelation. 148,000 or whatever. Yeah. You live we want, right? Right. And exactly. I think that the something for me that that has come from this this idea of religious trauma and suppressed suppression and unfortunately is the loss of like music as a huge part of my life. I mean, because it literally was like and I still do this to this day, you can ask or a little I I'm like constantly singing, like in the shower or like in the car. Like I, I love singing. I love, I love music. I love to have it blasting and all around me in life. But I, I couldn't, I couldn't do music anymore. After I came out because the only music I had ever done was intense. And it like and I poured my heart and soul into it. And I thought I was like, really good at it. And I loved like, making string parts and arranging songs and, you know, and, and singing it with people. And I just couldn't do it anymore. And that has been like a huge part of my life that I have like, missed, which I think, again, everything happens for a reason. But I think part of why we became close was because I was like reaching out to people all that and trying to connect with people on that particular level, like through music. Yeah, it was still a part of me that I'm, you know, want to so I want to, I want to come back, cultivate more, I guess. I want to feel. Like I want to come into that. I feel like music was like the light in the dark place. And that's what it felt for me was like the worship and the afterglow. I don't know if you guys had after glows or not. Some someone was just like, I don't know. I was like, the non boring part was like everything got lightened up at that part. Yeah, I feel like we connect on that a lot. On just like the music side of the religion though, was. Everything very powerful, so powerful. I mean, like we really should be giving all of our thanks to sound. Yeah, all of the universe's vibrations makes you so I think that there is immense through all of history in many different religions, sound is used as a powerful force of meditation, vibrations of the body arms. You can end up enough people in a church all singing a powerful song together with an amazing, attractive, powerful singer guitar player who doesn't look up there on that stage and be like, Rock star, this is, Yeah, I want this. And then you get up on that stage and you're good at it and people come up to you. They're like, I want to let you know. And I connected with the Lord so much because of your through you, through you. You're like. I know I can feed my ego, feed it, feed, you know. So then you leave the church and it's like, all right, let's play some music. And you don't get that. Nope, not even, not even. And you start to learn a lot about the fact that, like, wait, why was I doing need to relearn how to, like, do music? It's like a whole different part of the unknown. Now, there's none of that projection. There's none of that. You know, I'm here for a reason, you know, like I'm supposed to be doing this for, you know, less ego. And so it makes it know you know, music's really hard. And like, that's what I'm learning right now in my life, too, is I have these drums and they're everywhere, all over the house. Do I play them now? Yeah. And I went on like this crazy plant medicine retreat earlier this year and brought my drums and had this huge, like awakening with my childhood drumming. It, like, changed my life. And that was a direct connection to my dad, who's the pastor, where there's a lot of parental and religious trauma from. But he was like my access to drumming and music and like that saved my life as I can't when I was like leaving the church and, you know, that's what I cling on to. And but I too suffer from pretty bad, weird past trauma with music from our pasts, just like the tediousness around writing music and everything I write tends to have this spiritual worship sound to it now. Yeah, I get rid of it. Luckily it's become really popular, so it kind of works. But I only I really relate to that. And like we did, I know that we were. Yeah, we did deejaying. It was always something that was so separate from like church music. What was frowned upon in the church was like club music. Yeah. Deejays. So we were like, Let's do that. We're doing that. Yeah, yeah, we're going to be doing that. I totally get that. One of the things that you had said was you don't really have any friendships or relate relationships really from anybody in your upbringing from the church, which I imagine is a pretty large group of people and some amazing, like huge history and memories with. But these two people that you seem to have pretty significant relationships with still that you grew up with in the church. Are your parents in your which. Yeah, let's talk about your siblings. Are they still Give us a little background I should have because I know I do still have like a some very good friends that were there. I don't want to give anyone feel. Yeah. Are they still Seventh Day Adventist? Yes. Yeah, I still do have some good Seventh day Adventist friends being from my past, but just not like you know. Yeah. Isn't my main. Like an acquaintance. It's like. It's like we we had a past together. We still love each other. But you don't call them every day and. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But yeah, I'm sorry. My two older brothers are one of them is SGA the other one. Stay with. Same day as day. At the end. Some day you're gonna know the acronym. Yeah, well, you should in your research. Go ahead. So when one is 70 old and the other one, I would say is not it you like kind of like she matters a little bit. She would like, Well, he and I have a I've realized that we're a lot more similar than like growing up and maybe this is a little bit of religious trauma, like weird family dynamic drama, like always, like was my oldest brother and now he and I have had this conversation. Like, we were always kind of like at odds because I was like the youngest and he was the oldest and I was very sensitive and he was very like masculine, very like masculine and married, just like, kind of like, like no bullshit, like no nonsense And like, you know, a sensitive little, little gay boy takes things to the heart very, very easily. And, you know, I was very offended a lot. And so we just, like, didn't get along that well. And when we're like six years apart. So there's that that enters into it, too. As we've gotten older and as like we both have kind of like moved away from the church, we realize like we're actually pretty similar and we actually like, think a lot alike. Still very different people for sure. But yeah, we, we, we have a lot more in common and, and think this is your oldest. This is my oldest, my, my middle brother. We were we were closer as kids. We're not as close as adults. I think the religion thing definitely comes into play. There. And he doesn't approve that I'm gay. I don't approve of that. Not that he like has any, you know, it's fine. We're around and he's been around since I and it's been fine. But, I mean, even just recently he mentioned that to me, you know. Yeah, that that just blows my mind that you could be this far in your relationship. And I mean, nothing against your brother. Yeah, but just like that, people that are in it so in it. Cause I know what we all know. Nothing against it. We are there. But besides the fact that, like, this is about accepting one another. Yeah, fully and truly. This is like, if you come down to the core of just what this is about, do we accept each other just for being people and being an adult, being human? You accept him choosing his way to live? Yeah. Anyways, you have the two brothers. You have a sister? I do. I have a two younger siblings. I actually have a younger brother and a younger sister. One, two, three, four, five people from my dad's second marriage. Okay. And then I have a younger stepsister as well from his third and current. So. Got six kids. Combined. Yeah. At one time popping them out at one time he had like eight because his second wife had three. I got you. I got you. Again. Then I know how big. Yours, mine, yours, mine and our way of it. Yeah. Yeah. So my, my younger siblings, I would say, are not Adventist. I think my brother is Christian. I'm not sure about, about my, my little sister. We haven't had that conversation yet. She's still at or she just graduated from Davis, I want to say, and she's working over there but yeah we haven't we're not as close fortunately with situation that happened with so are you the only. One that has like walked away from the faith? No, my brother. Older brother. Older brother. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Just you to rest the family in. I mean, that's the thing. I don't know that my younger siblings were ever because they kind of had a, a tumultuous childhood with my with my trauma comes in many different form. Exactly. So I don't think that they identify as that another identify as Christian, but so it sounds like you're not as like not like this is something that comes up like let's Christmas is coming up when this is shared, it's gone. You're going to be having what, family Christmas dinner with your family this year? No, I think I think just my mom and Isaac's mom. Really? No. No siblings? No dad. The two moms and Isaac the two moms and Isaac. Well, maybe. Maybe Isaac's brother. Okay, so then you have a really good relationship with your mother. Has that always been the case? yeah, for sure. Wow. Little momma's boy. I mean, I always say I would say to her now I'm like, Mom, I was the girl you never had. Yeah. What did she say to that? She just kind of, like, laughs it off because she doesn't really know what to say. Like, I have, like, definitely pushed her boundaries of, like, talking about being gay and saying certain things like that. I do think she takes life way too seriously. I think people in general terms. Seriously, but especially religious people. Especially religious people, because it's like life and death itself. Yeah, it's very black or white and black and white. There's only one way or the highway. And Exactly. I was just hoping that those are the little towns. I was just telling Isaac, I had this thought that one of Ellen White's visions was, Well, I'm telling you this now. You're probably I don't know. I was I must've been Isaac. And one of her visions is literally of humans walking on this, like, narrow, like, straight, mind you, straight and narrow, like stone path with, like, thousand foot cliffs on either side. And it's like, a foot wide, and it's like the believers are, like, looking up towards heaven and they have to walk and they're walking this the straight you have to walk the straight in there. If you deviate at all, you fall just the dramatic, you know. But these are not like herbal sounds. So that actually is a little traumatic because remember, as a kid thinking that like, you have to be perfect, like you, there's no deviance, or else you're like, Yeah. Cassie, what happens if you walk down? You know, you're done. You know, it's like, Peter, what happened to Peter When he looked back. Yeah. Sank like you think when you look down, that's like looking at porn, you know, it's like, it's so scary to do some carnival. Scary. And there's a lot, you know, I think we've all been there a lot. Rabbit dramatizing. So I think we're all breaking down some shit. We've seen Hark and we all agree on that and so you have a really close relation with your mother. I something that Zach and I have intimately been able to experience on this podcast has been significant change in our relationship with our parents. My relationship with my parents has been evolving and changing ever since I started thinking outside of the box of Christianity. Yeah. And and so you this long process, it sounds like there was never really any sort of time where you were like, Mom, dad, I'm done with this shit, right? It was never. Like you felt no fear. It was just kind of like this long burn. And so the relationship with your mom continued to grow, and then she'd gone through a lot of pain through the divorce, which was a bonding traumatic, right? Yeah. Experience with her. You are the youngest. One of the things that we've connected to so much in our upbringings was that Zach is the youngest, you know, mother fucker. Was Connell his own goddamn life. But we were also very. Different and very different. I was like the anxious stay at home. Don't want to go do things where you're like, I want to do everything. So were just super, super different. And I think I was coddled because that you got kicked out at a young age. I was the last one left. But they, they definitely just kind of they protected you a lot, right? They did, Yeah. Like from me, from everything. Like the world. So you suffer your own my fair share of shit from like, having a mother and a father that were like, very protective of her, you know, from, like, information. Like how like, how did they protect you? They protect me from what I couldn't. Couldn't do. So, like, when they booted him out, we couldn't see each other for two and a half years or something like that. wow. So it was like it was like six months. Well, we couldn't really see each other, but then we didn't like it wasn't until I was like. Really high of our relationship. That we got to see each other again. But then, yeah, just the more like I had like a really open relationship with them where I would communicate to them, like, really openly and like safely because that's the relationship we had. Whereas my brother and sister kind of kept their lives like secret. And so I would be like open to them about like things I was like wanting to do or do and then, you know, like, cool, I guess I'm not going be that or do that. And so it's kind of like they kind of like molded me for a while until not too late though. Like I was done with them running my life like 18, 19 and then we started deejaying, but I didn't like of the faith until like 25, 26 around there. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's why we have so similar with me. I didn't want to like, I didn't want I just was like, It doesn't matter to me. I was like, if I let go of it, then it's done. Then I've let go of it and I'm a full sinner. And I was like, I got to go figure out if that's what I want to do first. Yeah, took me a long time. Yeah. No, but when you're saying, like, how they were with you, that was very much how my mom was with me, too. Like, I was very open with her there. You know, that was one of the things that she instilled in me was like, to be very honest and very nice and like, yes, you don't want you can't like false witness. You have to preach So similar. I was very open and and yeah, I think she definitely like steered me in certain things and I would like confess certain things that I, you know, had done like if I like my family once I like cheated on, on a test and I like confessed that to her and we had like this whole, like, prayerful moment of like thinking, thinking God, that we'd had the Jonathan that had this victory over her, over wow. Like sin that he had done and. Almost like half turning it into a positive. Keep telling me everything. Keep telling me everything. Yeah, I'm positive. Totally. Now, I was very similar, like my guilt kind of ruled me. And anything I would do if I thought it was against God's will, I have to go tell my parents. So I was like, I pretty much mean on almost everything. I would get other people in trouble too, because I couldn't like, hold my guilt away was a big, big problem. That we had a lot of fun growing up. You know, maybe on the flip side, though when I came out, it took me as long as it did because I didn't in part of my of that the other side of that relationship with my mom, meaning I was then trying to protect her, like from me, like from the sin that was me being gay. Was that. Because you don't think she could have handled it and you didn't want to like Crusher So or was it just kind. Of that? Yeah, there was definitely that in it. I just I just didn't want to disappoint her. I didn't want to. God. You know, So that means you were dealing with like coming to the realization that you were born, not chosen. You were like a born real center by being gay. And then you had to protect your own mother from that truth while you were learning it for yourself. Or I felt I had to. Or you felt you had to. Which you. When did you tell your mom or did she know? I mean, she knew like. And I asked her to. I was like, this is funny. I think it's funny because when I came out to her, like she I her, I was like, did did you did you know what? Did you know that I was going to come out to you? Because, you know, of course those automatic and we had to like take a car ride to and I know all the drama to the I was are in that car. And I asked her I was like, you know, like, did you suspect this kid, you know, she's like, well, yeah, I either like that it was this or that. Like you watched porn. You watched porn. I'm like, those do things. Okay, sure. Sorry. Gay porn, Same, same kind of freaky mama. Yeah, Mama. More watching. That's kind of sweet that she thought you were taking her on a joyride. No, I tell her you watched porn. And so. So then this. Fast forward now to, like, this year, and you're having Christmas with Isaac's mother. And your mother. Your mother still Sunday in Venice. I mean, I'm sure, sounds like she's over her own trauma and experience has grown a lot. You guys are both grown together, which is, like, beautiful. I think. So. I desire that with my mother and have and I'm we. I tell her right now, like, a lot of what I desire is just to learn how to be with each other more and to enjoy each other's time together. Do you guys have anything in common that you like? Like a common activity, or do we have a little. I think we've always had a lot in common. A lot of the things that my mother and I had in common were things that I've started to become more aware of that are no longer in like into sure, you know, like World War Two, right? My mother is really into history that is very specific to like some very Americanized historical recent history. And our grandfather was, you know, at the end of the war was prior World War Two. And so there was like so much growing up that was a very American history, very like World War has movies and like, there's just so much now where when I there's so much that I could connect with her on and there's so much that we have this relationship that's just at a point where I am still my religious trauma in my own parental trauma is where I I've just never felt accepted by my mother ever. And that feeling being like what we're talking about accepting yourself, I've had to learn how to accept myself first, which happened a lot this year and a lot like over the last five years and therapy and like. And so my acceptance of self is getting stronger and stronger and stronger and stronger to where I feel like I'm starting to have enough space to have a sort of like connection with my mom that is real. Where I don't I don't need her to accept me. Finally to be able to accept her. And I haven't fully learned how to do that, I guess. Yeah, yeah. A lot has changed our parents since we. Started this podcast. Do you? I can imagine. It keeps hitting us like a ton of bricks. I feel like every once in a while we got a lot better at it now that we've been doing over a year. But I mean. Then the relationship with our parents is actually my for me has gotten better. I'm being honest with my sibling about like this type of stuff. And so that's violent healing, right? It's like, I don't know, I think there's a lot of power and vulnerability. Totally. I feel like it's set a boundary that we didn't have prior, at least for me, that like like we believe were traumatized. It's not like we're keeping it a secret anymore and now we have to have a relationship with you. I mean, our experience, I think, with our parents two is different. For us acting as for me. And so what's unique about this conversation him and I have had for over a year now is like learning how different of an experience we had in the same family, same same dad as a pastor, same church like. And we both had a very different connection to that sort of this relationship to our parents. He still has going through like what's happened with our podcast and he still has a closer relationship with them. I think just based on your like what you guys are connecting on. And one of the things that I was going to ask you, like in this idea of trauma or like you having Christmas with just you and Isaac's mom and your mom, and so knowing that she's still Seventh Day Adventist and, you know, that seems like there's been a lot of things broken down. But ultimately, do you ever think about how, like, you're still not fully accepted or is that ever like a thought that you still have? Yeah, it is. I, I do. I mean, I definitely still do have that thought, like when you were just talking about it then I you know, I, I've gotten it verbally like from my dad in, in what I mentioned before about him saying like, you know, like I think it was good that you are gay, like looking back like you're and Isaac's relationship is is is so great and solid and yeah, I don't know that I'm going to get that from my mom so I but meaning verbally I can't downplay like her presence in my life and her actions of acceptance you know about it. But I but yeah, I don't know that I'm going to get that verbally from her, but I think you just said it because just from what you've talked a little bit about your experience, it sounds like there were actions made by your parents to show that there is in there. There's an ability of them to love you beyond even their, like, core beliefs. Totally. Because that's a lot of what this was in my experience has been. And so did you ever wrestle with like this? Because it sounds like you've been able to keep this really intimate relationship with your mother, which I really look up to. And I'm like, curious. The more people that we get to talk to that have religious trauma or come out of the church like this, you know what the process has been for them. And it sounds like your mother really does love you and she does accept you. Yeah, but like, actions are always louder than words, Right? And so did you ever were you ever in a time in your life that was more demanding, verbal validation from your parents or your mother? Yeah, I think just like in my in those first few years, I wanted it. I but I, but again, I was like scared to ask for it. And now that I'm a little bit older, I think that's why I do like I should a little bit like push the boundaries and like, act all queeny and like, you know, talk about RuPaul. So like, you know, like reference those very, very, like, queer things in front of her because I'm maybe I may be testing her a little bit just to see how she reacts, you know, like, and just pushing her a little. And she, she's fine, you know, like she's I think it's been my own work to get over that type of validation because ultimately, just like you said, she's shown me in her actions and her presence in my life, like we talk most every day and her, you know, being open about her life to me, that she does love me, that she does accept me. Again, on on the religious side, I don't know. She does. I haven't explicitly asked her as now like Isaac and I have gotten married. We kind of just I mean, you know, we eloped and we didn't tell anyone, including our mothers, until after the fact that she was a child. She was the one that gave the most affirming reaction to us. Yeah. Which was was great. That did feel really, really nice to have that reaction from her. That's beautiful. But but yeah, in terms of like if I said, Mom, do you think that it's that I'm gay? Like, I don't know that I want to ask her that at this point. I'm kind of like, I'm just going to live and and let her live. And she's still there for me. She live and let live that and that laugh. Live love life. I think it's so it's incredible. I think it's a tough with the religion, just religion in general. It's like if she were to be like, no, I still accept you, then she's denying her religion. Like, at least if you believe it as deeply as your to be perfectly believing it. Yeah. And that just makes it so difficult. Our parents are our they are our leaders. Yeah. In the church, the examples from we were kids. So they can't sway. They can't ever sway. So this sort of action validations of the actions are far and few between. Yeah. No that's, it's Yeah. Well and I think to just as an adult I've one of the things that in my relationship with Isaac has helped me understand is that need for validation that I've had maybe is like a younger I don't know if you feel this too, but like some of the, you know, some of the things that we've done as as kids were to like, get attention because we maybe we're kind of left behind because we were the last ones, you know, And like whether that's evolution or whatever, you know, like, look at me, like feed me, you know, like I'm still here, even though you like 18 other checks in your brown. But that that has been something that I've I've tried to work on not not needing as much Sure not not craving that validation from others as much I do like that. Yeah tell me about it. I think it as young as thing. Like watch this podcast, watch this episode. Please love us. Press that like Instagram. Go ahead and like comment. Yeah. Lately. Yeah. Well, that's amazing. I mean, I think that I've been on the same journey and have been, and I'm getting closer and closer and closer to that source, which feels like when am I going to get there? And then I realize there's never there isn't really no end to this process, which is like letting go acceptance and surrender. So how do I acceptance surrendered my parents more. You know, like this vulnerable conversation has really helped me a lot. I mean, a lot therapy, a lot of plant medicine and, you know, less alcohol. You know, there's a lot of I think it's like a lot of different angles to it. And that's really beautiful to hear that you still have such a really close relationship with your mother. I think that's extremely important and I think that everyone deserves love and to be loved. And I think that when you if we are lucky enough to meet one person on this planet, like one, to show us because we're all we all fail at some point, you know, every day. All day. Yeah. But we can meet one person that can show us an example of what it feels like to be accepted to like every little part of you. And not only just accepted, but then, like, the areas that are the insecure, accepting parts, they're like, That's what I want to see. Shine more. Let's I love that part of you. And there's like this feeling of like, I've never felt this, never felt somebody making me feel proud to be the part of me that is normally not accepted in like my family. And so, like, my experience with my partner has been that has been like this is what it feels like to just be fully 100% accepted and encouraged in that truth. Yeah. And that's like been the most validation I think I've had to. And it's not everything, but it's like such a huge part of like my childhood not feeling what it was like to be 100% okay. Like just you're okay. It's you're okay and I love you for you who you are, you know? And I think that that sounds like that's what your mother has for you, but she can always say it. Yeah, but you feel that. Yeah. And that's powerful. Yeah. Yes. And and I honestly feel that from my dad, too. We're just geographically much farther away. And where does your dad live? He lives in Georgia. Okay. that. We're moving, right? right. Our movement is right now. Everyone wants to move back. Atlanta, Georgia, Savannah, Georgia. JOHN Your Honor. I just was going to try with a no no, I cut that one off. How we're feeling Good. Well, this is well, this will be one of our longer podcasts. I feel like we only, you know, skipped the rock along. I know we're probably going have you back about 14 more time to. Really get. Down and dirty. I know. And that's you know, that's how our conversations go as well. Spend like 20 minutes trying to get into the flow and then it's like right now we're in the pocket. And I thought that was really beautiful. Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks for being here for the I would love to be back. Don't hesitate to ask. Good luck. You have so many guests lined up over the next 40 years. We're pretty pop. We have no other guests lined up at all. You're here. Now. We have other people that that will be on the cast at some point. But in terms of like having someone else booked it, it's it's tough. And, you know, we we we've done one episode of the our new segment, which is called Does It Heal. We go on call and we've you know like decide different ways that people use different modalities of healing or wellness. And then we like to film ourselves doing it and then talk about it and like, figure out did it work and so on. Our next one, if we're going to do it, was going to be the cold plunge. But now that is so cold. That's why I think it'd be so perfect. I'm like, Plunge in December would be for January, we'd be married. At the end of it. Nate Finally got in. I have been like for years now, I've been doing cold end of my showers. So, like, you freeze or something. I'm in the shower all at the same party. Gives you. You know. Activates the part of your brain, give you more tenacity. You know, everyone wants more, more tenacity. But to hop in a bath full of ice and sit in it for a minute. Ooh, every time I'm doing the cold shower now, I'm like, I think I'm going to have the biggest freak out. And I guess that would be great content. So. But I know you and you're someone that does benefit from putting yourself into some form of suffering. Yeah, right. To connect more with your inner self. Maybe it's because we were raised to suffer. Yeah, right. And it connects us back to our roots. Like suffer for a little bit too. 2 minutes. Okay, that is Isaac do cold showers. He does not. Of course he does. And there's, like, this weird connection we made was gay when he came out. He does not need cold showers now. Never. Is Isaac religious at all or was he raised religious at all? Yeah, he was raised a Catholic. Okay. Okay. In blue. Jacket. Same. Yeah. That's not real religious, John. There's no aunts. Yes, they're I'm joking. They had that. It was like I was like Adventists. Like Archnemesis was the Catholic Church. yeah, of course. Same was the same history. So. Yeah, well, it's. Just, you know, you meet so many Catholics that are like, you just go to church every once in a while and you can do whatever the hell you want until I what I came across a lot. Yeah. And then you really need 70 minutes or Christians and they're like, This is my life. I never I never said perfect in golf. these are all jokes because I've been on the Reddit, which is that there's X Catholic Examiner in Venice, X Christian, there's all these forums on Reddit and they're fascinating. And if you go to the X Catholic. Forum, I can imagine they're. Thanking them. And it is it is pure jokes. Pure jokes here. It's not like the Catholic Church has done anything mean to the little boys in the church, too. Or, you know, occupied any territories or anything like that. And there's none of that in the Catholic Church. And that's perfect. Perfect in every way. But yeah, we'd love to have you for like, it would be fun to have a, you know, just. Heal around to do like a moment to read it. Well, I would just tell Nate before he came over, that'd be awesome to have, like, a guest to do it with us instead of just us. And so, yeah, you're right down the street. So we're going to force you to be here more often. Yeah, I'm down for whatever there. Anything that you want. Plug some shows. Know every podcast is like, go ahead. Now all the cameras are on you, us. What do you do with your life? What's coming out of a book or just an our parties or kind of get a hole up for the rest of the season? Yeah, I'm leaning to do I got a lot of some vomit that that that floor is sticky so when you allow $90. yeah well I know at this Christmas party, Isaac and Jonathan have these very older dogs. Tiny, right. Like where? How old are they? 42. Yeah. Combines in dog years. Yeah. Not more like 100. 100 years. Yeah. Another 15 and nine. Yeah. Kind of dogs. One's a happy on. He's the older one and then the other one's a cockapoo from one of them. How gay dogs that are just like. Just like George. Yeah. One of them has a diaper. Yeah. And so all that just part of just, it's like, you know, tons of people have around this, these tiny little dogs just eating like little pieces of the wrapping from presence and some food here and some vomit there. Meghan and I were constantly, like dropping the dogs. I'd be like, my God, this is not good. Thank you for watching. Can I give her a little shout out? Because just love her so much? no. As in Meghan. I know. I know what you're talking about. I know exactly what you're talking about. Because I love her, too. Yeah, we all love her. Yeah. My fiance. Now she. I feel like I know your husband and I know your fiance. I think we all are so fucking lucky. Yeah. Yeah. To be with who we are. We should all. Go on vacation together. Yes. Do her. Yeah, we'll actually. We're so excited to announce that one of the gifts we do give our guests is a trip with us, the Mortal Kombat podcast crew to Porto Lovato via Mexico. Yeah, we're going Porto, but we have to go right now. I've never been out. I mean, I've seen Portland. Hard to to. Lovato Hey. You're right and all sort to Yeah, we're done. Lovato Sorry, I don't have enough money to go there. I think we're going actually. And of course you were, as I said, of course you are. No, for Master's birthday. fun. No, I'm sorry about that. wow. Ma'am, how old are you? Me? Yeah, 38. 36, 50. No, no. Our other friend, Randy. I was like, Yeah. Why do you want to make 450? Doesn't age. Yeah. Seriously, did you know that you don't get if you're not born in the church? No. It's like you don't age. It's the stress of the summer that takes your heroin. It's being gay that keeps you young. Everyone knows that Nate has, because the church doesn't. Want you to be married and have, like, a bunch of kids. So, yeah, I'm like, the only way better. I know. It's all right. Yeah. Yeah. There's a there are, like, a lot of pluses in terms of finances to being gay and it's true to being Dink's great. I love it. I was too late. I'm just getting. I bloomed last year. I have a 12 and a half year old. I'm part chef. No, you're not as beautiful as understand. You're very lucky. Yeah, this is very a really nice home. And I think you we started off with that with asking about. Do you start at some point? I said, do you suffer religious trauma? And you were like, I want to say suffer because I'm I have so much privilege in my life. And that's something that I are constantly Well, it's. Hard to think of it coming to. That conclusion. Targeting. I agree with you. It's hard to think of a suffering because I love who I am and I love all the trauma I went through because it made me exactly who I am today. And I don't know who I would be without my religious trauma. And so it's like, is it traumatizing? It's like for sure. Like there's things that were traumatized me, but I'm not suffering in it. Like I'm I'm working through it now. Finally. Yeah, I like that. I definitely feel that for sure. And then if you talk about it, if you really just think about this life that we all had growing up in the church as children and you just talk about it, you start to realize there probably is a lot suppressed or swept under the rug or you're like, that does hurt. Now that we've talked about it, that's created to that, and then we've had that experience. So yeah, I'm just like kind of being mind blown with our past. And so yeah, I've had a lot of those conversations with Isaac. He's definitely been your ear. He's such a such a wise human. I don't know. I don't know that, you know I know, you know, I don't know. You know, just how I think he's just like such a wise, intelligent, smart person. And he's given me a lot in life and I'm like and has inserted questions in my brain that has really helped me in my growth. It's amazing. You love him. Yeah. You feel like I'm married. I'm going to lock him down. My kids. Exactly. Yeah. Seriously, You've like, one of those has to be the brains. Lock that tongue down, boy. It's a funny note to end on, but anyways, lock that tongue down. What do. Yeah, we'd love to have you back. Thank you so much for doing. Yeah, Thanks for being in your thinking as well. I mean, I love you know, I love you and. Thanks for being vulnerable and having this conversation and. Yeah. Nothing else. No, I think it's a great way to just let it be. All right. Let It be Let it be. Let it be. Let it be. Speaking Words of wisdom. Let it be like, thank you. Everybody. Have a good night. Merry Christmas. And we'll see you in a couple of weeks. Yeah. Thank you, Jonathan. Thanks, everybody. I owe.