Kim Shambaugh's Story: Breaking Free From The Southern Baptist Church | Ep 65 | Moral Combat

In Episode 65 of the Moral Combat Podcast, hosts Zach and Nathan Blaustone delve into a deep conversation with guest Kim Shambaugh, exploring the impact of religious upbringing on personal growth and healing. Raised in an evangelical Baptist family, Kim's early life was dominated by purity culture and strict religious norms. Her journey, marked by a challenging marriage and struggles with perfectionism and eating disorders, led to a transformative divorce at 26 and subsequent ostracization from her church. Finding love and acceptance with her non-religious husband, Kim moved to Ohio, where she began deconstructing her faith and embracing practices like meditation and intuitive work. Her story culminates in founding Never Settle Life, a company focused on holistic nutrition and transformation, reflecting her journey towards self-discovery and healing.

Kim Shambaugh: Never Settle Life

Moral Combat, hosted by siblings Nathan and Zach Blaustone, is a heartfelt exploration of life's complexities, with a primary focus on healing from religious trauma. Step into their world as they navigate the realms of music production, confront the lingering echoes of religious trauma, and embrace laughter as a universal healer. With each episode, Nathan and Zach weave together their unique perspectives, seasoned with dynamic personalities that make every discussion an engaging adventure. From unraveling the complexities of personal growth to fostering open communication, healing the scars of religious indoctrination, and embracing the unfiltered authenticity of siblinghood, Moral Combat is your passport to thought-provoking conversations, heartfelt insights, and the pure joy of shared moments. Join us in the combat for morality, one conversation at a time.

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The. E. C. E. O. What's up, Mortal Kombat fans? What's up. Mortal Kombat fans? My name is Nathan, and I'm Zack. We are podcast or video cast. If you're watching this right now on the YouTubes, Tik Tiktoks all the visual social media platforms or listening to us through the audio platforms in the world. We are a podcast that mainly talks about. Religious trauma. Religious drama. Why is that? Zachary? Well, we grew up in the Christian evangelical church where the father is a pastor and have suffered quite a bit of trauma but have healed. We've been healing a lot. Quite a bit. We've been doing. This maybe a year and a half now. Yeah. It didn't originally start out as a podcast about this thing called religious trauma. Now, even hate, I hate identifying as being someone that suffers from the trauma trauma part of being a human being. I guess we're just trying to have conversations about it and we are so excited. Yes, we are. To have with us today, not in studio, but through the internet waves using Zooey. She goes by the. Name Kim Shambaugh and she is the owner and founder of Never Settle Life. And she comes from Cleveland, Ohio. She reached out to us vulnerably on her own through our social networks, wanting to join us as a conversation to share her story. So please run. APPLAUSE. Very warm welcome to Kim Tampa. What's up, you guys? Hi. Hi. Wow. How are you? I'm doing great today. Yep. It's Sunday. It's about noon our time. What time is it for you? It's 319 Eastern Standard Time. So you've had lunch Well hydrated. Yeah. Ready to go? Yeah. Just staying inside. It's, like seven degrees out today. really? wait, no, wait. Yeah. So if you're in Cleveland, Ohio, you guys are getting some bad freezes. Is that true? Right. Like record breaking freezes. I don't know about record breaking. There was a pretty gnarly windstorm last night, but it's so funny because there's been no snow and the sun's out. So we're. Like. We can if this it's the sun is shining, it can be like -50. We're happy. Yeah. All right. That's great. Yeah, right. You're not wearing a jacket or anything, So it's warm and you have central heat in your house. Yeah, Yeah. So. Yeah. So right now are you. Are you must be. Seem. You seem cozy. We are in. I know we're in Northern California. Yeah. And California's perceived to be a very warm state, which it is, but I think it's been like, like 38, 40 degrees at night. It's about 59 right now. Yeah, we're in the garage. Definitely on seven degrees. And we're like, Yeah, have a conversation. Yeah. All my California friends are like, my God, it's below 50. And in my parka I'm like. I hate you. I came into this interview with a sweater because the last time we were out here, I was with Zach's doing today Short sleeve and it was Chevron. Yeah. but yes, Thank you so much for joining. Yes, thank you. Our podcast. I know that you reached out to us, which I want to have so much gratitude for. One of our hurdles that we have found in our journeys doing this show and starting this podcast is we're talking about something that is rather extremely vulnerable and scary for most people to come out publicly about. And Zach and I experienced a lot of that. We still experience that every week we do this. But most importantly, when we first started talking about this, we were absolutely scared shitless of what would come are the repercussions. Or we even had like fears of attacks from past churchgoer But here we are a year and a half into this talking about our religious trauma and and here you are, which means you have a story in you. We don't know anything about you. We don't know. What down denomination you just reached out to us. And so here you are. Did you have any ideas of how you wanted to maybe introduce yourself in the story? Chris I can just tell you a bit about myself and a bit about what I do. I'm sure you'll get the most out of my experience. Honestly, just going through my story. Yes, I think that would be a fine place to start. Sure. And I think that what we've learned is this story that we have and the story that you have and the story that we're learning, we believe a lot of people share in this country and many, many countries around the world of the religious histories that we come from is the stories begin when some of us, when we're born, some of us not. And so my first question to you is, were you born in some sort of faith, reborn in the church from a religious family? I sure was. So my parents went to my what I would call my home church, the church that I grew up in. And honestly was that was the only church that I had ever been a member of. So I'm from the Bible Belt. I'm from Asheville, North Carolina, and was born into my home church. And so I'm 34 now just to kind of give some context. And I was heavily, heavily steeped. In. The Evangelical Southern Baptist Church up until about age 26. And then things took a turn. So I'm sure we'll get into all that. But the Evangelical Baptist Christian Church, correct? Yeah. So, I mean, we always say we're part we were from the evangelical Christian Church, but you add in that extra flair. The Southern Baptist part, Southern Baptist, and. You got you have a North Carolina accent. Our accident here in North Carolina, an accident. You know. Accident. My fiancee's dad is from North Carolina and she's from Tennessee. And I really love this part of the country. I know you're in Cleveland now, but I've done a lot of traveling to this idea of the Bible Belt, and I've actually been able to connect with more of like the commuting culture. So anyway, it's putting in perspective where you're from, where your parents, ministers in the church and they work in the church. Yeah. So the way the story goes, my parents were both Sunday school teachers. My dad eventually around my middle school years, he became a deacon. My brother is which is my only sibling. He is seven years older than me. He's a deacon at their church and his wife is heavily involved with their kids. Their kids very involved with that. Yeah. So everybody pretty. And I've had my roles as well, you know, which I'm sure we'll get into that. But yeah, so definitely more than just what you would call, I think, a regular churchgoer. And your brother's still a deacon. Yeah. So he's he is a deacon. He switched churches and I think became a deacon at I kind of don't ask questions anymore, like cool for. Sure. I think the reason. I think I'm quickly. Putting. In. Yeah, no, I get it right. You know, we don't we just talked about this on our last part. Zach and I that like we are learning how to put strong boundaries up with any conversation that has to do with religion or politics with our family. And things are going substantially better, we think. And so but but just kind of put in perspective. You have one sibling, an older brother, he's a deacon and maybe a different church. Your parents are still working in the ministry and you are the only one in your immediate family who is no longer religious. Yeah, I have definitely self-proclaimed myself as the scapegoat and the black sheep of the family for sure. Join us. Wow. Nice to have you here. And, you know, kind company. What we like to say on this podcast is some some of us get out alive. Not all of us do. Yeah. So we're happy to hear that. It sounds like you're not only out of life, but you're thriving in your life, which I hope to get to that point of our conversation where you're at now. Let's just start with your child. Unless you want to say something. Is it just your brother as a sibling? So do you and your brother. So just one brother. Give us like, you know, as a kid from what you remember, how much how much did you go to church then, as a kid throughout the week? Yeah. So we were the standard, you know, obviously Sunday morning, but that included Sunday school and then there was Evening church at 6 p.m. that we had to go to. And then there was Wednesday night church which often involved an hour prior to that youth group. And then often times because of my dad's duties as a deacon, he had to close up. So we would be at church for so many hours in a given week. And, you know, this was this didn't even include outside projects, whether it was like throwing an event for a women's group or, you know, vacation Bible school or my mom would produce these. Wild. Like Christmas plays and things like that. And so it was just it felt like my upbringing and in a whole was school, sports, church, wake up, do it all over again. And what's very interesting is that so our church grew. So when I turned about the age of ten, we built a whole entire new church and we used what was our current church as our youth building. So we grew this church and ended up I mean, there were over 600 members. It was pretty big and we were in a pretty small town. You know, Asheville isn't that big. It's a very small, what you would call big city. And everybody does kind of know everybody. And what's very interesting about Asheville, North Carolina, for those people that don't know is that it's actually very liberal and within the city itself, it's like really progressive. But anything directly outside of the city is very like, you know, homegrown grassroots, just southern living. Right. And that very much has to do with church. So it wasn't just, all of my immediate friends that, you know, I went to public school with and played sports with were a part of the church. It was also friends of friends that were heavily involved in church, you know, And then, of course, you would have like people here and there that were not. But I'm sure, as you guys are probably encouraged to not really associate with people like that, like not really associate with, quote, people of the world and keep it within, you know, our small community. So that was essentially from the moment I was born, there was no other way of being. And it's very interesting because about the entire mentality and essentially the dogma of the indoctrination. It's been wild because truthfully, thanks to you guys and some other people on social media, I have realized like, so much of my story, so much of my trauma, so much of what I've been through is because of my religious trauma. And it's interesting because it's not something this is truthfully the first time that I've openly talked about this. So I'm really. Excited. Yeah. Here on the moral com. Yes. Honestly, thank you so much. Your story sounds so similar to Amelia. Yeah, so familiar. And just the terminology. You're. Using like of the. Word like lump like and Woman's group. And Manson group. Youth group. These, these things like, you went to church not only Sundays but Wednesdays. And then you also they were too close. And the other night, church and like churches every single second of your life. It's everything. Yes. Whether you are in it or not. Like that's what we're doing today. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, thank you, guys. So, so, so much. Don't stop doing this podcast, you know? I mean, it's been a huge part of my growth journey, and I've sent it to past friends and, you know, people that I went to church with that are kind of figuring this stuff out, too. And they're like, What? Yeah. This is a thing I thought I was crazy, you know, I think I saw it yourself because it's such know, the Bible and the messages that were given from such a very impressionable age. It is like the word of God is truth, you know? And once you kind of break that glass ceiling of like, well, actually, hang on. Let me start to question some of these things. It can feel like the floor is is just dissolving out from under you because everything that you've always known to be true and keep you, quote, safe and give you direction in life and give you some sort of moral fiber and standing is now not even real like it almost feels that way, right? Like I was talking to my husband, which he has been amazing throughout this whole entire journey. And I'll kind of get into our relationship and how that's, you know, been such a support system. But I was telling him I was looking at him and I was like, I feel like my life was the Truman Show. Yeah. Yeah, I did. Even just you mentioning that movie, I'm like, yea, 100%. Yeah. It's and it's easy to see, you know, I know you talk about you have family it sounds like you love very much still involved in the church And so it's not hard it's not too hard to see them and be like they're living in the Truman Show. It's almost like it's so much easier to see how much of a Truman Show it was when you have personal people you love still doing and embracing it and teaching it and trying to get more people to. Write, you're like, it's just a show. Yeah, Yeah. And they make it. They make it every part of your life too. So like all your all your dreams and aspirations, as I was growing up, I felt like I had to have God in front of it God first. So it was like if I wanted to be a musician, it's like, Well, it's for worship, it's for God. If I wanted to take basketball further, it was in the name of the Lord. I'll take basketball further. Yeah. And it was never for you. It's always separated. You said. That you were so. Sorry. Go ahead. Yeah, you go ahead. I was going to say like it. It kind of hijacks your identity. 100%. And so the way that my story goes, I moved I moved away at age 26 to Ohio, and it allowed me so much freedom. Like for the first time in my life, it did. I felt like I can breathe and it's interesting, though, because you truly don't have a sense of self. And I mean, I remember walking around constantly waiting for somebody to tell me who I was because that's all I knew was for, you know, people, whether it was Sunday school teachers or the preacher or my parents or whoever would project to me who I was and who I was expected to be through the eyes of God, in the eyes of the Bible and all of that. Right. And so I remember having no sense of self at all, because we weren't allowed to be that wasn't safe. Because if you do, then it takes you out of that mold. Right. And then and that's threatening to the entire narrative, which ultimately is kind of control at the end of the day. Right. And a present am. Clip that. Yeah done because I want. The sense of self sense of identity I think this what you the analogy you just used of punching through the glass ceiling and something that our father to this day reminds us or tries to enforce in us since I was born was the truth shall set you free The truth set you free the truth. I'll set you free recently. And I'm plugging this because it was such a lesson. The recent Katt Williams podcast that broke the Internet so much about that was the truth is going to set people free. And I think that being raised in this Christian religion, this idea of truth, when you're told it's just there's one truth, right, black and white, one way or the highway, that is the truth. And I think what's wild about your analogy is it does feel like that that there is a feeling when you're a Christian and when you're taught that and you look up and you're seeing that truth, but you can if you can see through that truth and realize and punch through it, it's not that the sky or whatever is above that roof, is it? It's there's billions of homes everywhere and they all have different roofs and there's all these different trees. It's almost like this idea of reality becomes reality, right? And you can actually smell and feel for the first time. And this idea of being reborn in the faith. What I've always told people in the past that are so confused why I would walk away, I would say, you know, that feeling you got when you gave your life to Christ and you were reborn. I was like, I got that same exact feeling when I walked away from Christ. And people are. Like. You know, it's just like, what? And I'm like, I know, I know that's hard, but that's how it feels, right? It's almost the same way that people change their entire lives and they become Christians. Every single part of my life for me became like, everything that has nothing to do with Christianity. I'm embracing, you know? And it became so easy for me to, like, attach to all these different whatever it was. When did you know when you were 26, you moved to Ohio. That's when, like you would say, your entire life that shook. Everything changed. How about how about what pushed you to move to? Yeah. Why? well, that's that's the juicy part. So let's definitely get into that. Yeah, let's go there. So that kind of you need to kind of paint the picture, but up to that point and, and I talk about school a little bit more. So, you know, we talked about me being at church constantly and just constantly being involved in what was very interesting. Obviously, there is a form of being sheltered growing up that came with all of this and not really being able to see things in any other way. Right. And it specifically meaning like if you reject God, that equals death. So all of my survival mechanisms, as I'm sure you guys have experiences are turned on all the time. And even so, for me, like I know one of the two of you would be more apt to question, isn't that right, when you were younger and just kind of like. Somehow his knee was like straight from 15? He was leaving church very young. Yeah. Wow. So for me, it was very interesting because so what we're finding is that people that are that grew up and we can see this in like the boomer population specifically in abusive homes, it's interesting because they would find organized religion to give them some sense of structure, of safety. And going back, I'm like, wow, this is this was just a means for both of my parents in their traumatic experiences, which they both had very hard upbringings to be able to give that sense of stability to themselves and us. And I'm like, Wow, that's a very interesting way to look at it. And so my whole approach now and this comes in waves, I have moments where I'm very pissed off and I'm really fucking over it and I just want to like, burn the world down, right? Like you you go through. We go, Yeah, we get it. Yup. But it's so interesting because it's like I'm like, okay, that's the back story. Noted. Interesting. And I can kind of like, be mad and then have this level of me that also sees them without judgment, right? So like, all of this is set up and I mean, it was to the point in my middle school that there is about like a year, a year and a half span of time where there is this, like I'll say, outbreak of revival happening within western North Carolina. And there'd be these tent revivals off the highway. And every single week a different church would lead these revivals. And it was to the point of like the kids were taking over the schools, they were going out and evangelizing other kids. I mean, to the point I remember there was some God knows where they got this number, but it was like, yeah, thanks to just the kids at our church, 150 souls have been saved this year. Like just that, this mental adjustment, my middle school. And I'm like, Wow, I'm going to get such a reward for this. Like, I'm going to be so blessed for this. And so you're doing all the things right. Well, there was a boy that I ended up dating in middle school in eighth grade. Okay? This guy also went to my church. So here comes the purity culture thing, right? You know, I'm in middle school. I'm enjoying life. Not really thinking about sex so much. It's. And then, like, high school had the hormones hit. Everything kind of hits at once, you know, and you're having all these expectations, right? So I end up I dated this guy from middle school to the summer of my senior year. Wow. Yeah. So basically we as a couple went to that same church the entire time. We are in the throes of learning everything possible about purity culture because that's like all the youth group is talking about. Yeah. And of course we are constantly made to be a spectacle. We're constantly made to be an example. Like, I mean, I can remember instances where we like all the quote, younger couples that were not married were like, we had to stand up in church and it's like, use the congregation are supposed to keep these kids accountable, so to say pure. We were set. We basically went through a period of time until my ex boyfriend and I kind of got sick of it that we had to sit on the front row of the pew at our giant church every Sunday. Yeah. So that way we could be watched and. They would, they would ask you, they would tell you like, please sit here. Yeah. Where you do doing. Where's the expectation. There it was the expectation and like it was like tactic. Just. Right. So we eventually kind of got tired of it and phase that part out. Here's what gets good in eighth grade. You know, we're just starting to get to know each other. We go on a Wednesday night too. So we had two levels. The lower level was the Sunday school classrooms. So we in like a couple of our friends would go down there in the classrooms, door would be open and we just like hang out and talk or whatever. Get away from the adults for a minute. And while our other friends left, the light is off for some reason. So my boyfriend and I start making out. That was my first kiss that I ever had was in the Sunday school room of my church in middle school. And here's where it gets good. So one of my best friends growing up, and I'm sure you guys can probably think of that kid in church where it was like they were faultless, like they totally followed every rule. You're like, they've never done a bad thing, not even one thing. So this was this girl, and she was she and I were best friends. Her dad was the head of the deacon board, and he just so happened to walk by at that exact moment that I am making out with my. Eighth grade by now. Your best friend's dad, who is a deacon. Yeah. Yeah. Timing. Because God's always watching, you know that. Yeah. He didn't know what to do or say, and he just kind of like his eyes got really big and he just, like, walked away. Well, here's what was very interesting about the way that our deacon board is around. And I would say like the administration of the church in that I'm I am intuitively learning now as an adult. So they would have weekly meetings. And, you know, luckily, I would say in terms of the I know of our church is probably like I didn't hear anything of like sexual abuse or anything crazy or anything like that going on. Like, I think our church for the most part, that everybody meant well and they were pretty loving in the ways that they knew how. Right. The thing was, I know at the same time there was a lot of stuff that got dealt with on the back end in a very hush hush way. So a big stipulation of going to these meetings for my dad was that he could not share anything. And every once in a while something would slip out to my mom and she would tell me, Well, apparently he I was never dealt with. He got in a lot of trouble. For. Me kissing my boyfriend. Yeah, Yeah. And I think I don't know if there was any, like, specific repercussion or anything that happened, but there's more. And a similar story happened to him later, but I could just tell with it was very interesting learning later, like, wow, the way they deal with things is very like I don't know a good word for it. Maybe subversive or just like being. His fault, right? Technically, yeah. Yeah. In the in the church's eyes, it's like, yeah, your father has failed the church by allowing you to be that person. Yeah. Really gross. Way to. Look. When did you find that? When did you find make that connection that that's how these things were being dealt with. It was a few weeks later. My mom was like, you know, your dad got in a lot of trouble for that, like guilting me, you know, shaming me as a do. Yeah. Cause yeah. And I was like, So what am I supposed to do and see? I remember her just being kind of disgusted and she's like, You just need to figure yourself out. This is like, unacceptable. You know? There was never any solution. There was. It was just abstain. It was just keep a Bible within between, you don't touch, you know, luckily my parents weren't so strict of like, you can't hold hands or, you know, kiss. But they, you know, the obvious stuff. It was a no for them. But it was just very interesting. I was like, I like, wow, my human nature. Like, something as natural as breathing is now. I feel so disgusting. And then it just, like, escalated from there. The how so? So as we got into, to learning about purity culture and so as my perspective as a woman, which I know you guys were like at one point, hey, we would love to have a perspective of a woman about purity after and that's immediately when I message you guys. I'm like, Yeah, I'm. And you know, I want you when you say that you are the first woman that we've had on our podcast. Yeah. So my respect for you stepping out vulnerably like this to do this because we went through an extreme amount of purity culture. One thing that I found really interesting before we continue on from this story that I heard you say is I think there's a lot we could talk about. That. That feeling of that sexual shame or just being a human person and being like, this is it. We can relate to that so much. One thing that was it sounds different than the in your Baptist church experience growing up for your dad because our dad's a pastor and he had plenty of deacons and people that worked underneath him and there seemed there wasn't that sort of things were pretty hush, but they're like parents. It didn't seem like parents got in trouble for their kids ways. It was almost like in our experience, the kids were used as an example of sin, so we'd be like, Hey, that person's kid, You stay away from them. Yeah, but their parents would still come to the church. Yeah. And they're like, our parents would help them through their struggling kid because they know how hard it is. And the kid would just slowly get ostracized out of everything. yeah, Yeah. Whereas your experience was like your dad. What did it feel like being a daughter or a woman and your and like, yeah. How did that make you feel, seeing your dad being the one suffering for your inadequacies or whatever? Yeah, you know, and it's interesting that you mention that version two of the kids kind of get ostracized at some point because there there were feature examples that come about where girls did get pregnant and that exact thing happened. So I'll totally get into that to Well, what's interesting is that you have to kind of understand the relationship with my dad and I. And it's always been there's always been this chasm between the two of us, he and I. I am just I think I was incarnated on this earth to frustrate the hell out of him. So add this one to the list, right? Like, and at the same time, like he loves me to death and I love so many aspects of my dad and there, you know, there's so many dichotomies to these parental relationships. So I kind of was like, That sucks. But and, and there's nothing I can do about it. You know, I wish that I had the version of me now in my eighth grade shoes because I would have something, you know what I mean? But like, younger self doesn't know any better. You're just literally trying to follow the rules and not step on a landmine, you know? So it's like, Well, I don't want to make the situation worse. He and he naturally operates just because of his life experiences from a deep, deep place of guilt and shame as it is. And same with my mom, right? So but with their life experiences, it was you better not draw any attention to the negative things about our family because we need to put on this, you know, outward facing appearance of we have it all together. And the thing is, it wasn't just a facade like especially for my mom's, and it was believed wholeheartedly, like, we have it together. You need to present that way, you know, So basically having a hot imagine having like a highly critical mother, a dad operates from deep, deep shame in like projects to shame on me constantly. So I'm like, I'm better off if I just leave this alone and go on to the like with my life. Yeah, totally. And that was 26. That that was killed. 26 now, Yeah. When you say, like, I got to get to move my life, you're still at the house doing this. Like. Yeah. So while you're with that, but yeah. Yeah. So the boyfriend, we stay together. I think I was like 18 and a half, maybe early, maybe 19. So that essentially was that whole story. And then there's like the in-between stories of purity culture of like I can remember going to summer camp and we went with another church, which was even more conservative, and we had to. Where do you guys know what culottes are? What was that? Culottes. Culottes. Do you know, those are. Like, cool lots. I think that's how you pronounce it. If listeners go Google, what the hell? No, Obviously. You don't know what that is, what I what. I look like. Imagine an older, larger woman and the type of shorts that she would wear. Yeah. I know. The knee kind of kind of goes in the cross a little better. Yep. Really? Yep. High rise. God. Yeah. Yeah, you got, you got you, you. You got me with teacher. I'm like, Nope, I see it. I see it exactly who it is. And so we as the women were instructed to wear culottes and baggy shirts that were not light colored. The entire duration of this summer camp. And me being who I am, I was like, I will not be doing that. And I wore my brother's cargo shorts. I'm like. I need to at least look half way cool, like I will not be doing. Rebel. And it was crazy because of course, like the guys were given no stipulations they could like run around with their shirts off. They could wear a tank top. It was no big deal. And this was like it was hot as balls you guys like it was like 100 degrees there. There's no air conditioning. And so we were instructed like on swim day to swim on one side of the lake. And then there was this like island type thing. And then the guys would be on the other side and, well, we were instructed to wear a one piece bathing suit shorts and a baggy t shirt overtop of everything. Mind you, the guys couldn't even see us like we were even I shot and I can still remember to this day how angry I was when I realized the guys had no dress code at all whatsoever. And I just remember like hearing these old fashion preachers just talk of this shame. You know, women should feel about presenting body. And and I'm sitting here like, why? And then the story starts to unfold and I'm like, So it's because you and I'm not like projecting this that all men love men. They're great. Like, it's because men can't control their thoughts and impulses. 100%, especially in the church. That's how they perceive that for sure. I mean, that's definitely how they, they enforced and made us believe that as kids that we wouldn't ever have the ability to control ourselves. So it would be in our best nature to be with women that protected us from that and to control we'd be able to control. Yeah, yeah. You can't control or, you know. Yeah. And it it was interesting because, I mean, I had a relationship with my boyfriend and like the younger guys, I was like a guys girl and like, yeah, I would hang out with the guys more than the girls. Typically. And to be able to get their perspectives on it and just be like, it's not that big of a deal. Like, okay, that's just the way that it's present from them. And in my mind I'm like, Okay, this is just the older culture, you know? And it's creepy. Like, I remember being so upset because I think I was like 11 and there was a basketball court pretty close to the gym. I loved basketball and I needed a ride because all my were going and everybody left and I was like, I don't want to be left out. I really want to go. And the youth pastor was still there and. I asked my parents is like, Can I just get a ride with him real quick, you know, over to the gym, which I get it. Like, I get why it happened the way that it did. But he told me no. So everybody, like all my friends, are there but me because and the the painful part was I was like, why? And he couldn't answer me. Like if he would have just said something like, It's just not going to be a good look, I would have been like, yeah, I guess that makes sense. But he didn't say anything and he kind of just left. And so I'm sitting here like, Is something wrong with me? Like, you know, So there is all these, like, strange, just weird, insidious things that would happen over time. And I mean, the dress codes, even at our church were pretty strict. You know, we weren't a household where I had to wear a skirt all the time. It tried to venture into that territory and then the girls eventually were like, Nah, like, that's a little too far. You know, we're not the Duggars, so. I'm. Not going to do that. So basically, like I remember an instance in winter camp and they put a girl in charge that was a year older than me and she pulls me aside. I'm wearing a tank top that day, like literally just like this. She pulls me aside. She's like, You're going to have to go home. As soon as we got there, you're going to have to go home. I was like, Why? Your tank top is showing way too much skin. It is less than three finger. This is unacceptable and like goes into she you kind of just started to slut shaming me. I was like, and she's like, you're going to. Camp as the winter camp. Winter isn't winter camp. Yeah. And so I was like, Are you sure about that? Did you talk to anybody about this? Because I'm like, This feels very extreme. You're going to send me all the way home when we just got here? Yeah. And she goes to an adult and basically they go into this room for 45 minutes and come back out and they're like, No, you can stay. Just don't wear that shirt again. It's way too revealing. Where you are now. Yeah, the dress code is an interesting thing, you know, that wasn't brought to my attention until later in life. And as a man, I live with my sister in New Orleans for a little bit. And I remember her and I deconstructing a little bit. And she told me that she's like that was like one of the biggest things that started to push her away was this Men have no dress code and women have to cover everything. Yeah, and I did like the weirdest thing, though, is I didn't process that that was going on until I was 24, 25, sitting there with her and her being like, Don't you see how that's weird? How you guys could walk around and cancel your shirts off and girls had to have shirts over their bathing suits. And I was like, Not until this very second. And so it's interesting that from a woman's perspective, it's like instantly, y'all are like, these dress codes are not a man. I'm like, We're protecting the purity, though, protecting them and me. And it's like, all, like, accepted. Until you get to an age where you're like, as weird dude as some weird protection going on there. It's so bizarre. It's so bizarre. Like, I one point I remember thinking, you know, maybe if you guys release some tension somehow sexually, like in a proper way, you wouldn't project all this on us. Totally. You know what I mean? Because so ended up happening. I still think that I deserve a trophy for this. So I ended up my boyfriend and I broke up, but we ended up staying essentially pure. We didn't ever go all the way. We did other stuff, but like, we didn't go all the way. And the poor guy, like, I mean, I remember shaming him and blaming him and being like, you know, you're the one that's supposed you know, just kind of like projecting my irresponsibility and being like, you don't respect me and this and that. Right after I had heard like some sermon on it and, you know, so the poor guy got it pretty bad. But yeah, so I ended up we broke up and then here's where it gets here is where things escalate. This is my. Senior year of high school. Yeah. The planning perspective. Is like 19, somewhere. On there. 19? Yeah. So my choice with college, I was encouraged to not go to any sort of university or anything more than a community college. Yeah, Yeah. And I was just. I just want to ask you that. How was education, the influence in your church? It was looking back, that is probably one of the things that makes my blood boil the most, because what happens is when you get outside of your tiny bubble and you start to even objectively, you know, because here's the thing, people that deconstruct, it's not like they are going out looking to leave the faith, right? It it and it kills me because people that are still in the faith and converse with them, they're like, well, you never knew Jesus anyway. Yeah. Even accepted him anyway. It was never real for, you know, a lot of the times it's those people. It was the most real for like they were very, very steeped in what they were doing. And when you get outside of your one perspective that you have had your whole life, you're finally allowed to ask questions. And that's something that I realized, like, wow, any time I would ever ask a question, it's totally shut down and totally disregarded or dismiss. And they basically my parents, especially from their end, and not to say that, like some of the kids didn't go to universities, you know, but it was constantly preached like, we need to keep these kids close to home as much as possible and to prevent them from getting out into the world and getting involved in all this, you know, drugs and sex and all this stuff that happens in college, it's just not a good place for it. So what was interesting was a lot of my friends would go to Liberty University. Have you guys ever heard of Liberty before? Liberty sounds pretty familiar to. Christian. College. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you basically there were like all these stipulations if you had somebody of the opposite sex, like in your dorm, I think it was like, you can, like, lose your scholarship and you'd have all these penalties and it was just wild. So I thought like, maybe I'll go there. And I remember my parents like, shutting it down. And mind you, they didn't go to college, so they kind of like didn't know how to even navigate the scene. So it was like, well, if anything, you should probably go to a community college. So this is a conversation I'm having with my parents at 15. And so I decide to become a skincare specialist. So I'm like, okay, go to the local community college for a year and I'll have my certificate and I can make, you know, decent money. And I remember though, kind of wondering for sure, okay, is that what I want to do? Asking my mom, we were sitting down with a counselor and her being like, you know, here's the amount of money you can make with these different careers. You know, the counselor saying this and my mom being like, you don't really need that, you know, just like shutting it down. And I'm just damn the hindsight. So I go to community college, I meet a good friend there. She introduces me to my first husband. Here's where it gets interesting. So it's all been. Interesting, by the way. This is all very interesting. You're gone. So basically my whole intent, I mean, and this is the expectation was you graduate high school, you find a good godly man and you have babies immediately. Yep. I remember getting back the the day after my honeymoon and going to church in the evening and having three people ask me, So what are you guys having kids do? And I was like, Excuse me, You know, I'm like, Let me breathe. Give me a second. And the thing was, was mind you, I'm I got married as a virgin, as a technical virgin. And like, the reason the big reason to be super honest, to rush into marriage was so I could have sex. Yep. I pushed and pushed it and pushed it. We were dating about a year. We got engaged Within two years of dating. We got married. Wow. The lessons that had been learned in that time? No. Yeah, well. We were married for about five years, and, you know, if there's anybody below the age of 26 listening to this, I'm here to tell you, you don't even know who the fuck you are until you're like, 26, 27 remotely. Yeah. Give yourself some time. Don't rush anything. So I agreed. I get married at 20 years old. It was like the picture perfect wedding and things are pretty good for the first year. Second year. And to give a idea of this guy's character, he everybody called him Prince Charming. Like he knew what people wanted to hear. He would turn it on for those five years of six years of my life, I did not touch a single door handle like he was just a gentleman of gentleman, you know. And basically I started to notice, like, you are totally different at home. This is kind of weird. And he would avoid me, like he would work until 9 p.m. at night. He started like, barely talk to me and I was like, This is weird. And I'm a very like deep thinker and I want to talk. And like, connect is like connection is so important for me and my younger self didn't completely understand that and didn't have a way to communicate my needs. So of course it results in resentment and a lack of communication. More division, right? Well, something was really going on with him and I was like, Something's not right. Something's up. We end up. By the way, like the not even. Okay, so sex after being celibate for so long and being taught that it is so dirty is a freaking adventure because you're automatically it's like flip the switch in your brain of like, Hey, this is okay now. And like, something still felt very dirty about it. So I had to like myself into being like, You're safe, you're okay, this isn't bad. You're not going to go to hell for this. Like there's no reason to feel this disgust with yourself in your body. Like, because to here is something I'm not sure that men realize when women are taught that their value is so deeply embedded in their sexuality and in their body, you can start to try to idealize yourself as a woman and be like, How can I become the perfect sex object without, like, tempting a man, but, you know, making my body perfect, trying to look perfect all the time. So I started to notice when I was about like 23, perfection was the thing. So I mean, in every aspect, because it wasn't just, in my church, you know, once you're saved, that's great. It was constant of like the one bit of scripture that sticks in my mind that I can remember being a teenager and having this thought, why even try is when a Sunday school teacher taught us about our righteousness is, as of filthy rags before God. And I just remember like and I've always had a deep connection to the Divine since I was very, very little. And I remember being like, That's not right. God doesn't view it that way. Somebody is telling us that, but that's not right. But eventually I bought into the narrative and I was like, Well, that's what I'm supposed to do. Like everything's got to be perfect. So, like, you're a you're a new adult. You're trying to figure out career, you're trying you don't know what the hell you're doing in a marriage and like relationships, keeping a house perfect. And I remember having this, like, trauma response of freeze. And I would I wasn't going to bed until like 2 a.m. because I was just avoiding feeling things and like, it ended up my husband and I didn't have sex for two years. Wow. And it and I would come on to him. I would like try to do these things and he would reject me. And I was like, It's me. And I'm not trying. I'm not I'm not like the not good enough narrative couldn't could never be loud enough. Right? And so my self-talk was absolutely poisonous. It was just constant tearing myself down like constant ridicule, constant criticism. There was no self-love or appreciation at all for anyone. So inevitably this developed into eating disorders, too. So at the age let's see at about age 21, 22, I'm about five six for reference, I got down to £105. Wow. Yeah, I lost my menstrual cycle for three years. Wow. I could remember putting my both of my hands like around my thigh and there being like a gap because there is still space. Wow. And like, my fingers would easily touch and I can, like, sit down and feel my sitz bones, like, in pain against the chair beneath me because I no like body at all. And there was one specific time I was in church and there there's like many nuance stories beneath, like this portion of my life, no doubt. Yeah. But I remember being in church and feeling harp palpitations and like, knowing that I was about to have a heart attack. And I had that moment of like bargaining with God of and I remember like sweating and just saying is still as possible. So nobody picked up on anything being wrong. And I could feel myself getting lightheaded. And I like started to just slow my breathing down and like, I made that deal with God. If you give me through this, I will figure this out because I know that what I'm doing, something's wrong and I've got to figure it out. And like, slowly it came. Everything came back to normal. It was the weirdest to this day experience I've ever had. So it ended up becoming transitioned out of that just through a series of events into binging disorder. So over the course of three months, I ended up gaining over £60, and a lot of different kind of self-loathing came with that because I was like, still celibate. It was my husband. There was this moment in time where I had been binging for 5 hours straight, and I was like, discomfort isn't even the word for it. I like and I always joked I was like, It's too much of a bitch to make myself throw up. But so I'm like sitting in extreme pain, lying over a yoga ball. And this was this was the moment where everything flipped. I was crying and this is I was in such a dark place. I was on the precipice of like, there's there's no way out but one way, and I'm just ready to escape this life. Yeah. And right as I was about start into that thought, this voice that was not mine, because mind you too, I was very mean to myself during that period of time. I came in and was like, What if you just loved yourself? What if you saw yourself The way that I see you, the way that you would see a puppy or a kitten with the innocence and beauty that that creature has. That's how I see you. And I was like. Well, that's. So fast forward. I ended up leaving the marriage. At what age? What age did you leave the marriage? So I left at age 26. Okay. Is that is that when you. Were getting to go. Home and. Yeah, I now I don't you never know. I know. Maybe now it's coming together. So it was like at that moment, my intuition, which I had been so deeply connected with as a child, just cracked back open, like it was like in that moment I remembered who the fuck I was in. Like all of the beauty that God sees me in. And I was like, This isn't how I'm supposed to be living life. So some things progress. It turns out my ex-husband had some extreme trauma that he was very secretive about, and that was the source of the pain there couldn't be resolved. So we ended up I left him and the thing was in me leaving him because of his persona and the repertoire that he had within the church and our friend group, essentially, which was also inside the church. Mind you, he is sitting in about to be a deacon, like he is like a Sunday left. And I like announce that right. I'm leaving him essentially. And so basically this is where I left the church. So for the first time in my life, I'm on my own and no one has reached out. And then all of a sudden a couple people reach out. But then it was like this in this way of like, why did you leave? You know? What's your problem? And I ended up I had to sit down with my girlfriends. Two of them left just entirely disgusted with me. They they were, you know, part of the church their husbands were preachers and things of that nature. One was meeting me with concern and confusion, and the others were like, you're dead to us. Yeah. So because the thing was, I left what seemed very abruptly because I didn't reach out for help, because I was like, Nobody is going to believe me. Based on his reputation and how he presents. Like people are going to think that, you know, I'm making this up. So I ended up just kind of leaving. And it was wild because my parents ended up for months. They wouldn't talk to me. You. Know, the whole family and support system that I had my entire life abandoned me as soon as I needed them and as soon as I was myself, like feeling confused and trying to figure this out. And that was kind of a side story for me because I was like trying to heal at the same time and like, figure, figure out my feelings and it got ended up getting malicious. So there was an instance where my ex husband's one of his friends that was a part of a different church, and he was actually a preacher's kid. He ended up stalking me at the place I was living. He would send me like pictures from a night vision camera, like burner phone to my phone of my place as wild. I was I had no money. I was trying to sell my stuff at a yard sale and nobody came. And I was like, this makes no sense. Like, I advertise this. Like, what's happening? Turns out, like, people had taken my yard sale signs down like that knew the situation. It was bad. Wow. Yeah. And this is you trying to move to Ohio and leave? This is me just trying to move out of the house that I had been living in with my husband, so I wasn't even a factor yet. Got you. Yeah. Yeah. This is like, right. And you're like, the divorce has happened. Everyone in your life that supposedly loves you has left you. There's like, one friend that kind of cares a little bit about the truth, but they're like, I don't know. And you're like, I got to sell some shit to make some money. No one's buying your shit. There's someone walking out. Yeah, Yeah. Night vision alone is like, scary just to see you be like, imagine getting that. Like, that's horrible. That is terrible. That sounds terrifying, but. Like, also what ends in, like, amazing proof, like. And why did you feel sort of validated in the moment of like, are like kind of aware of like all of it as it was happening that this community was. What was interesting was this wasn't really a belief that I had yet it kind of proved itself and came out of nowhere like, magically going about this was like people will eventually understand, like, this is going to be hard. But they're my family. Like, yeah, this. You know, you see kind of some aspects of like, that's kind of weird. I don't understand that, but it's like, this is just life. And then all of a sudden it was like, woosh, just the veil was lifted and it's like, No, this is the nature. If you are not adhering verbatim to what is expected of you, you will be abandoned. So it's like people are going to choose the church over you as an individual. Yeah. So. So what was wild was this. So as a few months I was on my own. I ended up meeting my now husband and we just hit it off. And he's Catholic. He grew up Catholic, so he knows nothing of the culture that I speak of. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. I would tell him stuff and he'd be like, That's weird. So anyway, so he was the first person in my life to meet me for my soul's essence and not to judge it like he in every way, like at my worst or my best. He's like, I love the shit out of you. You know what I mean? And I was like, Whoa, So this is unconditional love. This is interesting. And as things progressed, I ended up moving to Ohio about like six months later because I was like, I'm so ready to get out of here, you know, everybody's abandoned me. Eventually, my parents came back around and just started like asking questions, but they've all still kind of like kind of had to think. I'm like, okay, he's still suspicious, but, you know, we love you. So moving to Ohio and truthfully, I wouldn't say that I have deconstructed, to be very honest, until this year. And I have been in Ohio since 2016. Yeah. So I just hadn't gone back to church and I kind of I'm so grateful for the progression of my experience because it was never like I'm leaving the church. It was like, I'm going to move and go like, live my life. And then I was like, Interesting. like my anxiety is gone. wow. I healed my eating disorders because I found meditation and was able to tap into my intuition. Yeah. And then starting to self heal and being like, Whoa I was really fucked up. Yeah. And then here we are now. Yeah. So that's. That's been the story. Yeah. I think, I think that's a lot of people's way out. And not everyone does what Nate did at 15. Like, I'm not a Christian at 15. Now, but so much of first off, like if this is the first time you've expressed this story like this, that was incredibly well done. It seems like you've had a lot of an amazing self-reflection in time to really think about your experiences. And I relate so much. There's so much that you've experienced that I'm learning from just listening to you. And I've made some connections to like the connections in your past where you talked about this youth pastor taking you to the right, the basketball or the gym or whatever it was, and then he was like, just walked away in that self. You were like, Is it me, my doing something wrong? And how that that familiarity led him to your marriage is like your first, you know, relation, like how the no sex in your marriage and you're like, is it me? Is it me? It's like there's this connection to your childhood, to adulthood, and how there's like, familiarity in these relationships with the men in your life and how one person, you know, this simple fact of like, I really do love you regardless of your inadequacies. Same thing experience I had with my fiancee now and I'd constructed. Sure. I had a really good friend of mine who was in the same church, who was a brilliant book reader who started smoking weed at a young age, who did all the things that I was so scared of. And he was always there. Like, When you're ready, I'm here because I found out some shit. And so, yeah. Like I. Had access to one person who loved me as a friend when the whole entire rest of my family and friends of the church and everybody else continued to shun me more and more just for having this idea of free thought. And I think that it really only takes one individual to give something like when you're a kid, when you're raised with this and you're just, you know, to give you a little glimpse of what it feels like, like to be loved like like this. What is love? Right? We're taught love is one thing, but when you actually feel and there's so much that you share that I love to keep talking about, but I think like my first question, which I know you probably have a question, but. Was it. Easy instead of like just jumping right into all your past, but like the moment you felt that love this, like this feeling of like, this is different. Wow, this is interesting. Like, this is a different was it easy for you to, like, just accept that type of love? Did it feel weird at first? Did you reject it? Did you have like, how did that go? hell, no. It wasn't easy. Yeah, I know. We're taught that we're not worthy and we need to give it, give, give, give, give, give and like. And something about Southern culture, especially as a woman in Southern culture, like you are expected to drain every ounce of your vital life worth for everybody around you for the sake of the greater good. Because blessings, you know. Yeah, it's true. So like, I had a very what we would call like a wounded feminine aspect, right? Like receivership. I have had to really work on that. And I've had my defenses up and my husband's Larry, she's like, You shut the fuck up. Let me love you. You know, like, I get. That. Yeah. But he I'm so blessed to have had him. And I mean, I've had great friends outside of the church here and there along the way, too. Like, I've constantly just needed a mirror to believe it for myself, because I've never I had never been able to think my own thoughts. So I constantly had to look for proof and validation outside of myself to affirm that I was even lovable, you know? And, you know, it's taken years, but now I can affirm it for myself. So it's. man, that has been the work you. Wow. Did you want to say something? I just wanted to comment on this. We were raised speaking for all three of us here. We were raised with with our family and everyone surrounding us, loving God, loving Jesus. And then we're below it. And I think just just that alone has its consequences on how we now have a tough time receiving love because we were never supposed to receive it anyway. We're supposed to receive it through God almost like this umbrella of Jesus and God up here. And then we're all below it. I mean, isn't that the book of Hebrews? It says, Deny yourself, pick up your cross and walk out. Right? And it's never you. It's Jesus through you never actually self. Yeah. There's no such thing as self. Did you ever hear the saying be in the world, but not of the world? of course. Okay. It's interesting to ask that to people growing up in different denominations because some denominations that they weren't they weren't. Told that they're not evangelical, they're not. Evangelical. Evangelicals. This idea is that you're here for one purpose and one purpose only. The world is dying. It is dying. It's a world of death. Yeah. How many can you save to bring to eternity? Did you in your evangelical upbringing, do you have a lot of people like how many numbers do you have of people that helped give their life to Christ? Were you that evangelical in your life growing up? Yeah. definitely. yeah. We were at age nine on the streets of Gatlinburg, Tennessee. It's 20 degrees outside with our pockets stuffed full of gospel tracks, sobbing poor people on the street and witnessing to them, you know and I mean, I remember like there was one as I got older, I just I wasn't feeling it that night, and I just didn't even try and. I remember feeling so guilty. And to briefly go into the healing aspect of all of this, what is wild, if we look at forms of control of, you know, through religion or just societal things, if if we can keep a culture knocked down into the emotion of guilt and shame, you're able to control them. Yep So I think that that's something that we're not talking about enough. Like even if we're looking at emotions in terms of frequency, right? Guilt And shame are the lowest there below depression, like it's the bottom of the barrel. And then the very top is like bliss, right? And and we can't go from guilt and shame to bliss in one fell swoop. So maybe, like, as you do anybody that's listening to this, like, as you're healing, understand, like when you go through that phase of anger, when you go through that phase of, you know, just resentment, understand that that is a better emotion than guilt and shame and you're on your way. Yeah. wow. That's a really beautiful connection there. Anger has been and was the guilt and shame and that fear that comes from that. Right. Because fear is like that, igniting like the match or whatever. And what lights up is the anger and anger is has played such a significant role in the majority of my life and how I handled that guilt and shame. And that's where it kind of capped off. And I like how you said Bliss being the top frequency. I have a lot of space for people that suffer from addiction. I found myself finding that, like you're talking about, the bliss for me was like starting. I mean, it was cannabis was this plant that I was like fighting for because it was helping me sleep at night because I didn't know how to sleep, because I suffered from insomnia and all this shit. And my parents were like, That's of the devil. And they kind of getting me kicked out, right? And so because I was so angry at them that they could have so much control over this blissful plant called cannabis, you know, that led I'm such a believer in plant medicine and these blissful experiences that can really show you a little bit more, right? Like, hey, this is a frequency that you can reach in that what's so scary or what can be so damaging coming out of the church is when you reach that bliss from a substance, you're immediately like, that's the only access I have to that bliss now, because the moment you come off of it, you're right back down to that guilt and shame times ten starts that loop being like, I need to, I want bliss in life. How do I. This is how I get it. Yeah. And I think that a lot I've met a lot of ex religious people, mostly Christians that have gone through that anger which led to drugs and mostly alcohol as being that blissful feeling and and there's so much more to it, you know, And then you have to tackle, right? You have these. Addictions and then you have that shame as separate than just the and so there's like this sort of but I love your positive spin that anger you're on the path. You know it's like, hey, if you're suffering, if you've coming out of this. Just getting out of the shame, your. Anger means you're at a higher frequency. That I never heard that. And I think that's really, really beautiful. Very well said. Yeah. And plant medicine has also played a role for me as well. You know, it hasn't been the thing that's played the role, but it's had a very powerful aspect. First it was meditation and, being able to still my mind and being able to actually like release that guilt and shame in that honest, constant stress response that I was in. I'm like, I'm going to die at any moment. And like, you know, even though I've accepted Christ like multiple times because I've been shared like. But it's interesting in finding that delicate dance of using substances to self-soothe. And I've luckily I'm a very cautious person and I'm I try to be super informed before I jump into anything that's just kind of always been my nature. And using as a tool and not as a crutch can be so powerful. Because for me, cannabis and also I've been both have allowed me to tap into my subconscious mind to bring out those suppressed memories and deal with them from a higher place. Now, processing it, you know, can be very profound and honestly, just reminding us of our true kid nature, which is so important. You know, things so damn serious in adulthood. And I think sometimes we just need to dance around and play and, you know, come back to that nature. So totally. Yeah. I mean, that's I know that's a Christian term, but. I love that. In something I am by using different plant medicines to work with my addiction to other plant medicines. I have been learning through the course since I walked away from the church at 1516 how at such a young age, the tool that me that plant medicinal cannabis around that to it was a tool at the same time was like that mother ganja and replaced and became the mother in a coddling way that I'd never really felt and that crutch that help that whole that night, you know, when I was living on my own for the first time, still is with me today. And I still share that sort of crutch, comfort. And I'm having to light through years of practice in meditation and like all of the things I'd love to talk to you next about of how you do it, I'm learning how to accept myself and the crutch and this coddling, you know, necessity or need that I have, and learning how to give that to myself first, right? And like trusting that I am the answer. And then it ends and starts me. This idea of alpha and Omega is me, right? Like, yeah. And so, yeah, if you're watching this and you're hearing this like, it's not easy, it's not an easy thing to change that crutch in. And like when it is a tool and it is a crutch, right? There's like, like you said, there's like this delicate balance between like learning how to get through it when it really does help. And so I think that what have I know that behind you I see and l and I'm assuming that might relate to like never settle life. Okay. And so you have this business and I know for all of us just hearing your story, we relate something. I suffer from a lot is this idea of the Jesus complex, this idea of feeling the need that I'm here for a reason and I have I can make an impact on the planet, right? Because as Christians and as evangelicals, that's why we were here. And so Zach and I did music for many, many years together, thinking we were like the deejays that were going to bring a new sound to the world that people needed. And here we are many years later, really going through plenty of ego, death and growth. And but here we are once again leading a podcast or a show that we ultimately and we hope makes an impact in this world. And something that I'm working on now in my life is really trying to settle this need for purpose or this need for that Jesus complex and trying to really understand it deeper and how deep it goes and at the same time feeling called and wanting to lead or wanting to be in these leadership roles. And I see you leading a business and I see you and it's around, right? Why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit about how ended up to being where you are now, given this story of Sharon. Yeah. All right. So yeah, never sit a lifestyle is a virtually base transformation company, so I'm what I call a transformation expert. I am a holistic nutritionist. I focus on change, psychology and energetic work as well. So I am an intuitive, I am a Reiki master, and I also incorporate things like Breathwork. If tapping, meditation, and let's say those things are just not your cup of tea. I work with the general population to on what would call like the practical side of things, as in are you taking care of yourself and how is your self-talk and like what are the things that we can clean up to, make your life everything that it can be, and you live the most fulfilling life, so to speak, into that, you know, deep need for purpose. I think especially if we've been a part of the evangelical church, it's it there's this like really I don't know if you guys can relate to this, but there feels like this really high mark that we all need to hit in terms of you know and you see these kids being like, I'm going to become a preacher and I'm going to like just whatever they can reach that really high mark to make it really big impact on the world. And what I've discovered in terms of purpose. Is. We need be comfortable with not having the answers. If we can get comfortable with letting go of expectations and truthfully making sure that you as an individual and you know, you're you're people local to you like the people that matter your life, the all that's taken care of, that's step one. And like you have to be able to go through that deeper healing work. And it's process. It's a practice and it truly never ends. But if you're doing that, you're already on your way. And so when I have people come to me and they're like, I just need to know, like, what? What's my purpose? Like, I know I'm meant to do something big in this world, but I just don't know what it is. I don't know where to start. And you can just tell they're kind of like overthinking it. You have to start with that first aspect. And then as your nervous system starts to regulate and feels safe, what it will do is it'll start to let go of control. I find that us as previous Christians have this like obsession with control of like, it's got to be perfect, you know, and we got to do it this very specific way. But the biggest thing that I can tell anybody that struggling with that is let go of expectations and follow the things that your heart on fire. So if that means, you know, somebody is listening to this and they're like, I love to crochet, I want to make, you know, stuffed jellyfish and sell them on Etsy and like, that's my life purpose, which sounds pretty freaking cool to me. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Like, and to as someone that also has a podcast and like his experience, different guests and different iterations of it, you never know who you're impacting. You never know who's going to come around the corner and be like, Hey, this really changed my life. And you never know where you're going to be and how far along things you're going to be five years from now. So my question to that is, what's the rush? Yeah, I'm. Like, enjoy the ride. Because like, I think when we've been conditioned to be such a certain way, it's always about the end goal. It's always about heaven, right? And it's funny because I've noticed, like Christians tend to have a transient sort of lifestyle typically. They don't really take care of their body. And, you know, I'm going to have a perfect body when I'm dead or I'll, you know, worry about it later or whatever. They don't really take care of the earth because once they're gone, they're gone. It's not their problem anymore. But it's like only because they're thinking the next thing and they're not in the present. They're not in right now. So just enjoy every little moment. That's really all I got. Totally. I think that's I think that's a really interesting point you just made on being an evangelical is not being in the present, never being in the present because this earth is not heaven. This earth isn't God be in the world and not have the world have a mentality. So don't be yourself. Don't even think about yourself because you're just you're just supposed to die and go to heaven someday. Make sure you save as many people as you possibly can. And that's it. Then it's like finding that self and how that looks. Either it's like, Yeah, you start to get angry, you start to use cannabis or use plant medicine. You find yourself out of that because you never had a self to begin with. You have to find it now, leaving the faith in a way. I think like what you were saying too, also gets at that every single living thing on this planet, even the things that we don't perceive to have heartbeats like plants that are living and breathing and trees. The oxygen that we get from trees and the carbon dioxide that we reciprocate back to the planet that they take. And yeah. Every living thing is special. Yeah. And has a place in furthering our evolution as a species to survive. I mean and I think that that is helps with this ego death and helps with this maybe. Hey, relax. I like take a deep breath. You just take a deep breath, you know, just not rushing to get to the next thing. And you said you're 34. I'm 33, Zach 30. One. 31. Come on, then. Sorry. And that, you know, I think this is the age that we're I don't want to speak for every generation before us, but it seems about that we're starting to figure out how to slow down, you know, and, like, how much do I wish I could have slowed down in my twenties? But what I did in my twenties was supposed if I like it, there was supposed to be rush so that I could learn ALEXANDER Slow down so that I can spend the next 40 years of my life sort of like rushing and, you know, like I had learn some things, maybe the harder ways that other people might write in, like, by the way, to get to that place of, like, down and being at peace without feeling so much purpose coming from that Christian mentality is one, we were brainwashed. We were to and we were told by really powerful people that we loved like our parents and the pastors, that we were the answer. And when you realize that it's not that you're not the answer, it's that everything is the. Answer is. Is such a powerful effect on taking a deep breath and just taking a moment and being like there's and you can break down everything we use that's been built in some third world country. Yeah. However long ago that's going to disintegrate over thousands of more years. And every little thing as a as a something and we're all it's all part of you know this rather overwhelming endless amounts of systems and potential and possibilities and. Yeah. It's interesting how to find more peace. And I think I think I like how you said practice. It's feels like so much like a practice and I think one thing that I'm getting a little bit better at like an inchworm is learning how to have less shame when I do fail my self-help ways or like I work out like crazy all the time and I love eating healthy and I do these retreats that help me get closer to the source of my true body. And and if I like, fall off that line a little bit or that mark, I feel like I'm a sinner. Shame. And I'm going. To go harder the next day. Yeah, I'm learning this word. Yeah, exactly. So it's like, man, I have everything you need with that. All right, So the best this is so simple, but it is the best bit of advice I ever received because I would go through that same thing and fall off of my routines and beat myself up. Not only would I beat myself up, I would punish myself by going harder at the gym and restricting more food. The the thing is your your body, your metabolism is a set of checks and balances. You know, roughly give or take. By noon every day, you're going to have burned an average amount of calories. The thing is, if you have not taken in enough, eventually you're going to really, really, really need calories. And so like, for example, if you have somebody that doesn't eat until 2 p.m., they tend to overeat big time in the evening because there's this huge calorie deficit and then it might turn into a binge session or like an overeat session and maybe they feel shame about it. So what do they do? They get up the next day, they work 2 hours instead of one, and they restrict even more. And it turns into this shitty cycle. So here's what's beautiful. Your body is nature. You can't fight nature if a tornado is going to come. Yes, well, you ain't stopping it. So the thing is, you might as well meet your body with what it's trying to tell you. So that means if you've messed up one day, guess what? You wipe the slate clean and you eat normally and just pick right back up. And the thing is, if you find yourself in that cycle, you could be overtraining, you could be under eating, and that's why it's causing that. But it requires a lot of forgiveness and just simply not trying to make up for it. But just start back with your routine when you can and it's like you kind of got to laugh it off and be like, it's not that big of a deal. Like what's going to happen? Yeah, you know, because the thing is, when it comes to regression body composition, like you're not going to lose progress from one meal, just like you didn't gain body fat from, you know, just one time. It takes years. Right. And the same thing, like you're not going to lose it from eating one's out. Like it's a progression of time in like what you've been up to. So it's funny because I feel like it's a very interesting lesson in self forgiveness and like showing us that we cannot strong arm our physicality into fitting into a mold. You know, like you can't cut corners. It's nature. Acceptance, surrender, acceptance, surrenders. Accept yourself. Right? Yeah. And it's okay to like, if you like, it's okay to want to transform, you know like that's a big thing that I talk about is you have to be able to accept yourself and love yourself or aim to practice it just as you are even. And especially if you want to transform physically totally, you can have one without the other. Yeah. It really is a dance. It's not just one way. We're such complicated beings. It's not black and white. It's every fricking color imaginable, plus all the colors we can't perceive as humans. There's so much more out in the world we don't even understand most of them. Now. It's not just one way. And I think really think it's not just one way is the way. Yeah, right. So letting go except in surrender. It's hard. Everything you just said about the body. We've talked a lot about sexual shame and the purity culture and being raised in that. You're absolutely right. It takes a long time for the body to actually physically and visually change. But I swear to God, it changes for me every day. When I look in that mirror, somebody that suffers from body dysmorphia. And so if you're listening and you do feel like your body changes so quickly with the decisions you make, for you, it might. And I'm here to say that I suffer from that too, and it's getting a little bit better and better. But I do see things that I think only I get to see that nobody else will ever see. And that is also part of this process of learning how to accept just who I am. Right? Yeah, I'm. You've been going for an hour. Yeah. Damn, Not bad. This has been amazing. Zach, do you have any sort of, like really pertinent questions that you would like to ask? Pertinent. I like your words. Has been using more, you know, smart words. I want to try to. Use this word right now. Go it, guys. So what? What schooling have you done? Because something that we both have mentioned, we just interviewed someone here in town that was part of the Adventist Church, the Seventh Day Adventist Church, and they incorporate education deeply. So from a very young age, they're told to get a higher education doctor or anything and take that further to make the the FDA like name further. Whereas same way we were raised kind of like you, it was like, don't go to school. Your God believing in God, you know, don't go to college. But it sounds like you've done some you've had some education. Correct? So that last part again, right. Cut out just little bit. sorry. What education have you had? It sounds like you've gone to college or something. Yeah. So I went to community college, like I said, and I got my certification for skincare. So I was an esthetician for ten years. We do facials, chemical peels, body waxing, all that fun stuff, and then I went back and got a certification for nutrition. So I am precision nutrition certified and also master certified. So that's been the extent. I mean, I'm self-taught in terms of my business and all of it. So, I mean, there's all sorts of continuing education and amazing resources in general on the Internet. And then if you're intuitively just business minded and you're good at figuring stuff out, it's really not that bad lately. I have a friend that's getting his MBA in business right now, and I'm teaching him stuff as he's going through it and we're kind of like conversing and he's like, Yeah, they they're behind. Yeah. There's still with social media, it is a totally different ballgame and it's changing very quickly. He was like, Whoa, just from you? Like taking extra courses here and there he's like, You definitely know more than what, as far as I know, with what he knows now in what they're teaching. And he's like, this is very interesting and making me question my decisions, you know? And I think with what you're doing, I mean, like there's a difference between like getting like a chemistry degree or, you know, like if you want to be a doctor where you're required to like you want to be a surgeon, you have 12 years of academic schooling. But one same thing with like us in our business here in our podcast, you know, even doing music for like eight years with no business degrees or while I was in nursing school, the best thing works is. Just. Doing it. Yeah, yeah. Just do it. Just jump in, make mistakes, get awkward, be nervous, be you know, experience what it's like to be a fool doing something like, you know, putting yourself out there. And normally from those mistakes or those issues, you learn right there, if I do this right. And so, like, schooling is nothing for business. I've heard this so much and people that go and get business degrees, which I have nothing against, I've always considered maybe going back a more specific degree, but it's a changing world and it's happening really fast. And I think like there's so much opportunity to get out there and try new things and learn in that process similar to like, I don't know, leaving a religion you just got to is part of it is just like stepping out and then experiencing that fear and learning all of the communities and everything to the resources. Yeah, why don't you? I feel like we're getting somewhat of a free session right now, just hearing a lot of what you're saying. And so and I feel like this is a good opportunity to wrap things up. Yeah. How about because something I, I want to start asking all the guests we have is to all the kids stuck in a very evangelical family right now, to all the adults stuck in the evangelical faith, can't get their minds off this. The religion that they're stuck in, that we all are so familiar with being stuck in it. What would be some advice if they happened to stumble across this podcast that you're on? What would be some advice you could give them to encourage them? Wow, that's such a that's a tough question because I think everybody is so different and what they need. I guess what I would suggest would be without getting attached to the answer, if you are not afraid to ask, what would the questions that you be that you would ask. To. Be of creation of the world, of the afterlife, and not having an attachment to needing an answer, but like just starting to ponder, you know, and trusting that those there are people out there on the other side of this that have gotten over that initial feeling of, the floor crumbling from underneath you like there's no answer. And so I'm just going to disappear into the abyss now that, I don't know for sure. I know that. I know that. I know this is an actual fact, you know, everything that I've been taught. So don't be hurt shortly. Don't be afraid to ask questions. And if you weren't afraid, what would you ask? If you weren't afraid, what questions that you ask? I think that's big, because when I was a kid growing up in it, you know, that's what it was I'm too afraid to even think of the questions I would ask because I don't want to send and I won't do the wrong thing. If you weren't afraid, what would you. That's a good that's a good. I like that a lot. Yeah. So curiosity potentially is the fertilizer to evolution. Curious minds get really far. Keep asking questions goes with our leaders because of the systems that are in place now all over the world. Everything that's happening and all the information that's so beautifully orchestrated to only see we should be saying or what they know, however it goes, we should be questioning everything. Yeah. Question everything. Even like a big thing that I see is people will turn around and start to fall into another religion of some sort. You know, we just we put our faith into something else. It's like. Familiarity. Yeah, it's like keep asking questions, question everything. Like, I won't. You guys listen to me today. Question Everything that I have said, you know, I mean, I tell my clients that too, because even in working with a therapist or a coach, some sort of mentor, if they are putting you in a place where you're not allowed to question the things that they're presenting to you, guess what? You're just being thrown into another construct. Absolutely. Dropping bombs like that. Yeah. Yeah. Damn, that's a great lesson. And I'm going to. Why don't you go ahead, tell us, like, is your website. I know that we have found your contact, but why did you go ahead and use this as an opportunity to share your business and how we can find your podcast? Go for it. Yeah. I am never set all lists on Instagram and TikTok. My link on Instagram is a best place to find me, which has like all my links there. And then I also have a podcast, which is the Never a Life podcast. And this isn't a spoiler alert. I have never talked about this ever. So you're not going to go into my content and find anything about religion, really. If you like to talk to me, I'm an open book. Please give me a message like I'm not shy. Yes, I'm here. If anybody needs help. Not speaking, speaking on that and just off the record, you can cut this out if you want. We do share. You probably seen on our page we share as much content that you possibly can because we're consistently shot open for the content we talk about. Do you want us to not tag you in the posts that we post? You can totally tag me. I mean, like at some point I know that I'm going to have to talk about this, so feel free. Like I'm debating on sharing it on my stories. I have my my parents don't check Instagram and my sister in law keeps a very close eye on me. So I have her blocked from stories like this morning. And I'm like, I'll know what to do as soon as it. Well, you know, and you know how we run our content, we create know upwards of 15 clips that are long forms of the entire cast. Then we'll do sometimes 20 to 25 shorts of the entire cast. And so I was gonna say thank you again for reaching out to us on your own. When we got the message. And, you know, Zach originally was communicating with you and he had said, Hey, someone had reached out asking to be out. We have if you could imagine, we've had some really weird people. Reach out to want to be on our couch and really ask your ways. And so you were kind of the first experience of just someone in our country who's just really was touched by what we're doing and felt called to do this. And so I just want to reiterate to you that, like we are in no place to put you in a position to, like, make your life harder by you being this vulnerable to go public. But I want to thank you because one thing that Zach and I and I hope this happens for you, too. One thing that Zach and I feel really lucky is we're not creating content anymore that's about views and capitalism. And so it's frustrating for us. But our relationship has blossomed in we couldn't imagine. And my I'm actually healing exponentially by talking and talking about I'm Cheryl Blakely and posting it. And you can imagine our families have gone up and, you know, earthquakes, everything's different. This podcast has really fucked shit up in our community, but that's why we're doing it is because we were pastor's kids and we're like raised kind of we're reflecting what our father is doing actively in our own community. Yeah. And so we've benefited a lot. And I'm going to use this what I like to do today. So I'm going to get a good workout in now because I waited and I'm going to really try my best to take everything that you shared as a woman and your experiences and everything you want to be shared and let that just like like soy. I'm going to plant the seeds and I have no doubt so much is going to grow from this. So thank you so much. And I really hope that whoever you meet that might be suffering from maybe they don't suffer, Maybe they have a story. Send them our way. We'd love to talk with that blue lamb now. And if you ever would like to have us on. Well, Zach, I work out, eat well, all the things that we're doing, we're like. We're all by our house, and we would love to. Come on your show if and when you felt more comfortable. Telling. I know. On that note, if you don't mind me asking really quickly, any advice on coming out Like, it's so funny because I mean, I know I've mentioned to you guys like I'm a psychic medium, like I'm an intuitive. It's kind of weird from my perspective as far as like the afterlife and, whatnot. And I'm very vocal about it on my business page. And it's just funny because, like, the only interaction I've had in general, like, obviously I'm not really in church is I've had my brother reach out and be like, Do you know who you're talking to? Like when you're channeling somebody, like, is it a demon? You know. Everybody's kind of left me alone. I don't know what to expect. You guys like I they will not like if I were to just outright if they heard this all verbatim, like it would kill them, you know? Yeah Well. I think that my advice would be, you know, what you experienced when you left that marriage and all that shame, never having one abandoned you. It it like. I think that's just a really good example of how deep this culture goes. So when you go public about any of this, like we always say Shadow Band, I think that's a victimize approach. But we do know that Shadow Banning is happening, that what we see more of is this entire huge, very loud, toxic male, masculine. Christian Yeah, energy that's in social media's that that have a really big impact on comments because of one thing we've learned a very small percentage of people like is a very small percentage of people comment and then a very in and those small percentages tend to be the outliers of extremists whatever side they fall on. Right. And that side the people that abandon us, that are angry, that are shaming us, are very loud. And I think that like that's that's an encouragement for us. It's almost like this reflection of what it felt like when we were leaving the church. It was kind of like, I know I'm doing something right because they hate me so much. And so. I but. I just if you do go more public about it, just know now you're not alone, Right? I think, like, what's incredible is like, the churches have this crazy community of they all talk and they have these crazy networks and me and Zach desire more creators, content creators, because there are so many out there that are doing this that we haven't been able to touch with or like be able to connect with. And I think for us, a lot of that like same ideas as meeting our significant others. The moment you don't feel alone. That's empowering. It's like, that's like the littlest and know that whatever happens, like you can find support or whatever and just know that I don't know, like, and, but this is one of those things and I think we've learned like everything that we expected, how difficult it would be. It's been. It's been very difficult, very. Difficult. And you're creating that. You have a business, you know, with a product and and this is a hard content to have like a successful business. I'm from it, right? Because I think though but we really do believe that that there is a lot there's a lot of people in our entire world that all share part of our evolution to be talking about these things. I think that it's very possible religion became a we're like filled in to our evolution as a survival thing because we all focus on like you're saying we're safety like your parents, right? Later, abuse that came from it's like evolution. They come together to be like safe and not have that anymore. And now we're finding that maybe it's hindering our evolutionary process. So we should be talking about that. What used what worked in the past in certain ways just ain't working anymore for a lot of us. And I think there's a lot of people who would agree 99% don't feel comfortable doing that. Yeah, Yeah. So it's that primal feeling of I'm going to be ostracized from the tribe and that means death, you know what I mean? Yeah, totally. But we know that that that it's just not true. I just not. That's not. True. Yeah, I was. Talking about venting to my husband about it, like last night, and he is laying on his stomach in the bed and he's like, I love you. My family loves you. We're here no matter what. You're going to be great. And he's. Like. Say whatever the fuck you want to say. He rolls over and I'm like, Damn Catholic. Seriously, you guys. Have that box. You will never have. The power and the safety. Got to drink and everything. Yeah, we. Always had to look at those like 45 year old men in the eyes and be like, It was. Me the whole time. Yeah, it is tough. It is tough. There, there, there's just. Yeah, I think there's a lot of possibility for backlash. But you've already experienced that. And just, just from your story, it's not that it can't get worse than it did at 26. That's true. You are you have you have your husband in a loving family. So the worst that could happen is that's the same like ostracization that you already experienced. But now you have unconditional love in your life that you didn't have before. But there is something about being truthful and in your true self. And then if the ones that you believe love you like your family, pull that love from you, it's almost like, see, don't love my true self. And I think that's what I have. Experience is like my true self. Yeah I like deserves true love. And if you're not going to be that, then that's their choice, not yours and you're just being true. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think my final thing I'll say to that, which is something I'm learning right now with our parents. Yeah, I just had a conversation with them that I try. We try really hard to keep things private on this cast from, you know, their pastors and we love them and they we know, we believe they love us. But what we're doing. Is. Really affecting their lives. It's scaring the shit out of them. They are in pain because of us healing. And they vocalized it a little bit to us now. And so there's something that I'm learning and this that I've never wanted, which was I never wanted my parents to feel what they made me feel, which was what we're doing right now and rising up just to have a conversation about our upbringing inevitably makes them feel shame and guilt. I believe in fear of being ostracized from this, whatever that means. And they're starting to vocalize that this isn't fair. We're feeling ostracized. We're feeling pushed out from our family. We're feeling embarrassed. And I have had to look at them and be like, I never wanted that. But this is how I have felt since I was a kid. Yeah. And I'm just trying to figure it out now, and I'm sorry, but that's not what I'm trying to do. Yeah. And I think that what I'm learning is that hurts me really bad. I don't like seeing my mom cry in front of me, even though she's cried most of her life. With everything I've. Done. This is different. Yeah. Because I'm not angry anymore and I am starting to heal. And there I almost see myself as a child in them. A bit. Yeah. Because we're all just people and they had to figure it out their way. And so I'm learning how to have a better, broader perspective on accepting my parents. And this has helped me, but it's hurting them based on what they believe their culture and their culture and what they live by. This is going to hurt them if they keep and that's on them. And I can't like do anything about that, but I can at least learn how to be aware of them as people, as just being humans. And that will hopefully. Help. Strengthen the relationship in this process, right. In a in a violent healing way that I couldn't have ever imagined. And that's what I think means are in totally different ways, because he has a very different relationship with my parents. That's something I am learning. We no longer are like being tricked by the devil and in the world. We've kind of become demons and we are running the devil's work by doing. This in their. Eyes and their eyes. And to me, I don't know. That feels more powerful than being led by. Yeah, I mean, it's. Like, I don't know, you know? So true. Yeah. That's been my experience lately. So good. Yeah. Zach, I feel like I relate a lot to your perspective. I remember specifically being like, Yeah, every time I would get in the shower. I would just cry. And I'm like, That was me. Yeah, just that's that. I have so much gratitude for you, actually, just listening to our podcast and even being healed by it, or just even receiving anything from it, because that's, that's like my truth of just like the sadness and, and true pain we were raised in. And I'm just believing that. And it was that. It was like, well, I just cried every time I was in the shower because I at the time I didn't know. But looking back at it now, it was like I was just suffering. I just had no idea. But it's just so true. It's so real. That's why this is so important. That's why that's like this has so much meaning. Just you just talking about it. Yeah. Keep going. You guys long have you been at this now. You're in two months, Somewhere in there. And sometimes it takes a long time and all of a sudden something just pops off like I was. I think to about two years into my. And I had like one post go viral on my in ASL page. And all of a sudden I had like overnight 12,000 new followers. I was like, Wow. You never know. Never know. So thank you guys so much. Thank you. Thank you. Keep going. Yeah. One of the things that we as we're learning how to get means act, we do everything, we edit, we film, we produce, we direct this, we post it, we're social media. So it's a lot to find more guests. One of the things that we are we'd like, we have different segments, and one of those segments is like where we find Reddit posts throughout all of the different religious forums that are ex Christian, ex Catholic, ex Presbyterian, and we find like juicy posts that are kind of more like modern pop culture is the idea of like using pop culture, like using things in the moment in that people anonymously share some of the craziest shit, and then we'll read them on the cast and they just talk about that person's past. And we would love to have you back for a segment where instead of you doing this, we just have your take and your input on breaking down these things and down. That sounds so much fun. Cool, cool, cool, cool. Yeah, I'll hit you up whenever that happens in the future, but at that. Thanks. Thank you so much. Thank you for doing this. And yeah, yeah. We are eternally grateful that you were willing to come on and share your story. Absolutely. Absolutely. To business wise, if you guys need any advice, what kind of streamline this shit? Because it is a lot of work, you know, I understand. Please don't hesitate to reach out like, Hey, do you have a process for this or whatever? Let me know how we walk online for sure. Well, happy Sunday. I hope you have a great. And then tomorrow's day off. So enjoy your day off. Right? If you get one. She has her own business. You know, I it's happening tomorrow on. Martin Luther King Jr. Night. And Mark, I see it off. Looks well. I hope it's a good rest of your evening. And we want to say thank you to your husband for loving you and showing you that we are eternally grateful for him as well as we are for our partners. You are there. Everything is a huge support and decisions being made. And so how much love? Good luck. Thank you, guys. You do absolutely. Reach out if you need anything. Thank you so much for having me on. Of course. Thanks for being here. All right, Kim, I Kim. Thank you my. Well. Thanks, everybody, for listening. That was incredible. That was amazing. Thank you. Kim Thank you, Kim. And we are excited to have more guests coming soon. Zachary Yes, I love you. I love you. I feel juiced up right now. That was really. Awesome. I think there's a lot of healing in talking about this shit. Yeah, that was such an interesting comparison. Then talking to Jonathan, I felt like when we were talking to Jonathan, I was learning so much about the culture and whole. It's it's just super different. And then the second she started talking about like youth group and, and woman's group, Men's Group, this thing, it's church on this day, this day, this and like I feel like you're talking about my upbringing. It was so I connected so much with everything. I think that there are a lot of similarities between all of us that are, you know, like I think purity culture has a big impact. So it totally. Obviously, but this is as long as up to 2 hours. So thank you, everybody. We will see you soon. We'll See you soon, everyone. Thanks for being here. Thanks for listening. I owe.