Forest Benedict's Deconstruction of Evangelical Christianity | Ep 66 | Moral Combat

In Episode 66 of the Moral Combat Podcast, hosts Zach and Nathan reconnect with Forest Benedict, whom they knew from their childhood days at Petaluma Calvary Chapel, and who was also a member of the Christian band Gone Fishing. Forest opens up about his intense engagement with Christianity from a young age, driven by a desire to connect with his father and a belief in his divine purpose. However, this commitment was shadowed by deep internal struggles, particularly with sexual shame exacerbated by purity culture, leading him to years of self-punishment and discomfort around women. Despite his success as a speaker and author in the "porn addiction" recovery realm, abstaining from porn and masturbation for 17 years, Forest's perspective shifted radically after participating in an ayahuasca retreat. This experience, along with therapy and Internal Family Systems (IFS) training, helped him realize the possibility of self-healing outside of religious frameworks, prompting him to leave Christianity and directly address his religious trauma. Forest discusses the importance of becoming curious about oneself and one's sexuality as a part of overcoming religious shame, now advocating for a sex/body-positive approach. The episode explores themes of self-parenting, healing from religious trauma, and the transformation that comes with embracing curiosity, self-exploration, and a greater appreciation for life beyond rigid religious doctrines.

Forest Benedict:
Website - https://forestbenedict.com
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/forestbenedictlmft

Moral Combat, hosted by siblings Nathan and Zach Blaustone, is a heartfelt exploration of life's complexities, with a primary focus on healing from religious trauma. Step into their world as they navigate the realms of music production, confront the lingering echoes of religious trauma, and embrace laughter as a universal healer. With each episode, Nathan and Zach weave together their unique perspectives, seasoned with dynamic personalities that make every discussion an engaging adventure. From unraveling the complexities of personal growth to fostering open communication, healing the scars of religious indoctrination, and embracing the unfiltered authenticity of siblinghood, Moral Combat is your passport to thought-provoking conversations, heartfelt insights, and the pure joy of shared moments. Join us in the combat for morality, one conversation at a time.

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Well, here we are once again, Zachary Blaustow. Here we go again. We are the Moral Combat Podcast. Welcome MCPs. Welcome MCPs. Better known as Moral Combat Podcast fans. If this is your first time here, we are a audio podcast, video podcast. Maybe you're watching us on YouTube or you're seeing clips on Instagram or you're listening to us on the multiple podcast websites out there. Thanks for joining us. Thank you for being here. We like to talk about one very, very specific thing, but we talk about other things too. Sometimes, yeah, we branch out. But Zachary, as I ask you most weeks, what is our main focus on this cast? We mainly focus on the topic of religious trauma as we were raised in the Christian evangelical church with a father as a pastor. Still a pastor. Still a pastor, going like 30 years now. Yeah. With mad respect, longevity. We're like year two here, so year one and a half. They're on like year 12, man. Their podcast is soaring. You know, when these pastors, when they really believe in what they believe in, they don't give it up. They go deeper. They go deep. But yeah, we are pastors, kids. And we believe talking about the trauma has helped us heal. It's helped us heal a lot. It's helped some other of our guests heal and some people who have messaging heal quite a bit. Did you just say guests? I did say that because we are starting to have some guests. Yeah, one thing we've learned is some of us make it out alive. Not all of us do. Yeah. We are so excited today to have someone that made it out alive, not only made it out alive, but is thriving, working in this field as a licensed therapist specific to religious trauma. Also, the first guest we have yet to have that was with us in the upbringing of the same church as we were a part of. Same church. Yeah, and they call that Calvary Chapel. We're going to jump into it, but with us today, we are so happy. They reached out to us once again on their own, vulnerably through our social networks to want to share or just to connect. And then here they are to share their story with us today. So please give a warm, warm welcome to Forest Benedict. Thank you, guys. How's it going? Good. I'm excited to be here with you guys. We are very excited to have you. I know. And this has been kind of in the works. You reached out to us maybe a few months ago and you said, I think I remember the first message you sent, right? It's always, it's that DM. The DM came in and you went, hey, I know you. That's a good way to put it. The moment I saw your face, man, I had these flashbacks of my childhood to the first church that I can really remember at like 10, which was where we know each other from or kind of where it all started back 15, 16, 17 years ago. A long time ago. So I was 12, 13. I know. I barely remember it. I was like 9, 10. What's your memory of where we met? Go as far back. Yeah. Yeah. I think it may have been longer than that, actually, because I was in the Christian ska band Gone Fishin'. Yes. Probably like 21, 22. Okay. Now I'm 44. So that's definitely over 20. Oh, wow. Yeah, that is longer. 20 years. I was 13. You were 13? Oh, that's right. I'm older than I thought I was. You guys were little. God. That's fine. You guys were alive, but you were on the little earth for sure. Yeah. We were like young, innocent. We were Jesus freaks. We all were Jesus freaks, dude. 13-year-old Jesus freaks. That was the whole motto there was to be as freaky for Jesus as you can get. Yeah. So you said Gone Fishin'. This is where I remember you from, to put it in context. Which is located in the same county that we do this podcast in. We aren't afraid. Nope. We are not afraid. No. And I was a kid, really young. Zach was probably too young to even remember you. We talked about it, right? Do you remember for us? I don't remember for us specifically, but I remember Gone Fishin'. Yeah. That was the band. You guys played every show I was trying to go to. Skate fest, Christian festivals, church events. Good band too. Such a good ska band, man. Yeah. It made me like church rock stars, which for us was a church rock star. I saw you two different ways. I saw you as a rock star, as like in the band, because you'd perform that. And then I also, like, this is just the memory I was thinking of you before having you on, was like, I remember you being like a perfect Christian. That's how I saw you. When you walked into church, the way you held your Bible, the way you would talk with people, you had this sort of energy that was so pure and so soft. That's literally how I remember seeing you was like, I want to be a rock star. Like those guys. Why is that one in the band so pure? Like he's so pure. That's literally the memory I used to have of you. Wow. Well, that's really cool to hear like your memory of that, because I think that that was definitely my aim was to be as pure as possible. And I was extremely committed to that, you know, especially in the area of sexual purity, like that was my internal biggest internal battle really was around sexuality. And so, so, yeah, I think that, yeah, to this day, I mean, I know the Bible inside and out, like it was my life, you know, I, you guys probably know it better than I do, given your circumstance, but seriously, that was my life, you know? So that's, I would have wanted you to see me that way. Not that I felt perfect in any way. I think if anything, I was feeling shameful and deficient, you know? Yeah. Very committed. Wow. I like how we were just like, you just, you hit like nail on the head. You hit the nail on the cross right there with the sexual, you know, the conversation we had last week with a woman who was wonderful. Her name was Kim, and she spoke a lot on purity culture. Oh, yeah. Coming from that of like a female's perspective in the Southern Baptist. Zach and I have talked about sex, you know, when we have talked about sex in this podcast. They're like the most exciting and like there's so much like boils out of us when we just start to have those conversations. And so before we like jump into the meat of I think like what we're really excited to try to get into today, when did you give your life to Christ? Were you born in the church? Where did it all start for you? Yeah. Well, actually, when I was little, my parents were both hippies. And so they were definitely not Christian in my earliest years. But they got divorced when I was really young, like two or three. And my dad actually ended up in jail for drunk driving when I was six years old. And that was definitely a big part of my life, too, was just my own family trauma. But in jail, he accepted Christ and came back very religious. And then he like remarried to a really strict Christian woman. And like their household became like the strict, by the book, you know, like that's the first time I ever got spanked. It just got really strict and really rigid really fast. And I wanted really nothing more than to be like seen and appreciated by my dad. So I remember praying with him at some like church event. Like I was up on stage, he prayed with me to accept Christ. And yeah, I would say I considered myself, you know, very committed to my faith, like ever since that age. And yeah, ended up not getting baptized till I was like 14. But like I always that really did become my life was my faith. And yeah, so that was kind of how it evolved. But then I was raised mostly by my mom, who wasn't a Christian. And so my faith, you know, really became my own, especially as a teenager. Like that's when I really, you know, was wearing the Christian T-shirts to school. And, you know, like trying to evangelize everybody and gotten to, you know, really involved in youth group. And, you know, going to Mexico to build houses. And like, it was like my life, you know, it was my life. But then also, you know, I had this, I don't know, dark side as we would call it, you know, as it felt like then. You know, I had this merging sexual side of me that I thought was like so wrong and sinful, but it was like definitely not going away. And so that, to me, that turned into such a battle. And I was always the one who would be like bringing guys together, like, let's confess and let's get on. You know, like, I think I was a therapist at heart as a teenager, even, you know, just wanting, you know, just have conversations about this, like talk about sex. I'm still pretty much obsessed with that topic, but now it's just from the other perspective. Totally. Yeah, that was kind of a big, kind of the foundation of what led me into Christianity. So then your young teenage years, when did you start getting into music? When was that, like, you started to join the worship team maybe? That's a great guess. But actually, the funny thing was I wasn't playing an instrument when the band was getting together. I had a saxophone that my dad had given me, like in my closet, and like all my friends were getting this band together. So I wanted to be part of it. So one of the other saxophone players said he would teach me how to play. And so I ended up learning to play just to be in the band. I did end up writing a lot of the lyrics for the band, which I would say writing is definitely my strength. I usually tried to be like as quiet as possible, but still be in the band. Yeah. You know, being in front of people, like I was very shy, honestly, and had a lot of social anxiety. And so I did like what I could to be a part of that group. And it was life changing. It was awesome experience in so many ways. But yeah, I wasn't into music, I would say, before that. And I missed that. You said you met everybody in the Gone Fishin' Band through a youth group? Actually, you know, a lot of us were in Boy Scouts together. Oh, the connections, the connections to these cultures, man. Yeah, seriously. I mean, that's kind of where we found our friends at that time. And yeah, then some of us did, like another one of the guys went to Calvary Chapel, Petaluma. And, you know, like there was other connections, you know, people. But I'd say the foundation of us either went to church or Boy Scouts or something like that. But Boy Scouts, it was a Christian troop. So they were all Christian, like we're all Christians, you know. Yeah, there's a lot of these groups in our country, in the world that are like founded by Christians, right, that facilitate towards like, hey, little boys need, you know, maybe some more guidance on how to build a fire. Let's go ahead and do that and preach the gospel at the same time. Yeah. And so do you feel like when you're talking about your dad, so your dad gets caught for drunk driving. All of that's very traumatic. And one of the things you said was, you know, you have this like parental or family trauma, familial trauma that's separate than what you would consider this religious trauma. And one of the things that, you know, like with us having parents as pastors, we never felt like we even had a choice ever in our lives to choose. Our only choice that we had was leaving the faith, which I like to always explain as being like the same feeling you get when you give your life to Christ is the same feeling I got when I left the faith. Oh, never. And so, but at that young age, like six, seven or eight when your dad's back from prison and he's completely refounded his life in Christ, which seems to be a common tale of guys or women coming out of prison with this whole new faith. I had a really, really, really good best friend of mine who ended up in jail and came out a full-blown Christian and disowned us our friendship because of it. Oh, no. And do you feel like you even had a choice? Could you make that choice as a kid or was it just kind of like you were still young enough to just absorb what your dad was doing? Yeah. Yeah. I would not consider it a choice at this point in my life, but I also, also in the same way that I wouldn't consider, I mean, for anyone really, I don't think it is a choice because it's like a choice under, I think a good word is duress or fear of punishment. Yeah. So like, is that really a choice? If you're like here, either follow Jesus or be burned in eternity for the rest of your life. You know, like even that, but especially for kids, you know, I now think it's abusive to teach kids about how. Because it puts such a fear into them, into their bodies, into, I mean, it can be very motivating if you want them to behave and, you know, suppress themselves and not be an individual, but just follow blindly. But to me, that's more of like a trauma response than anything. It's not like an actual choice or because, you know, like, like to be forced in, you know, there's so much on the line if you don't choose it. So it's like, to me, that's not a choice at all. Yeah. Especially for kids, you know. Totally. Yeah. And then to have that, that other side of it where it's like you have this for eternity burning alive, right? Which I still to this day have the muscles as a child that I feel to this day when I think of that. Because it's like I remember what that thought as a kid. And it was really easy for me to just be born in something and be like, I'm never going to want that. Like who would ever want to burn for eternity? The other side of it, which we've talked a lot in this podcast, is that heaven was presented as a kid. For a kid, right, you have this eternal fire or you have this, your house is built in gold, all the streets are gold, the books are gold, the mugs are gold. And so everything in my life was like, so everything's gold in heaven, which is probably really shiny. And then everything in hell is really hot and fiery. And so my concepts of heaven and hell really were like Marvel places. They were like, it felt, but I didn't, I mean, I just was obsessed with Star Wars and obsessed with Lord of the Rings, which I think it's easy for us to find Hollywoodized pictures of what might be similar. Like Mordor, Mordor is like hell, that's where fallen angels come out of the depths of, you know, and so like, it was like I was believing a Hollywood story that I was 100%, I didn't know anything else outside of that. So the real world felt more like the movie. And I was living the real reality, like everyone else is living in this fake movie. They don't know that. Yeah. It's extremely traumatic. So I 100% agree with you that I think teaching kids absolutely pain and suffering can be abusive as use of the fear tactic, but then telling a kid that you'll live, you'll have eternal life in the greatest place ever is also just as like, I got to be a certain way to get that. Yeah. And it's just like a tearing, right? Yeah. And actually, I was just thinking about this this morning, how, you know, if you teach somebody, this is a little different, but if you teach somebody, you know, from any age really that they're bad and worthless and sinful and wrong at their core, like that's how they come into the world, then show them like kind of this way that they can like make up for all that. And, you know, redeem themselves like it becomes really like it can take over your entire life just to prove your worth, you know, just to basically heal, you know, try to heal yourself from this badness that you're taught is within you. And people, yeah, will give their entire lives to like avoid, you know, or redeem themselves from this badness that they're told is inside of them. People live their entire lives trying to avoid that feeling of badness or escape that badness, you know, for the promise of heaven or whatever. And it's all a lie too. Like we're not bad at our core, you know? Yeah. It's just, to me, that's part of the trauma that can happen, you know, or the, I don't know. It's, I think it's definitely toxic and harmful to be told you're bad at your core, but then it's just kind of like a trap to be told that and then given like some magical formula to like not be that, you know? And I don't know, I feel like I'm going on a little tangent here. I feel like, especially as a child, I think if I was approached with Christianity at like 20 or 21 and then I chose it, that would have been a whole different ballgame. But because it's like, I get to 2021 and I'm like, this is pretty psychotic, I'm going to leave it now. But I think of like my father at 17 when he got saved and it was like an absolute choice of his. And I think that's kind of obviously why he's still in it too. I think what Forrest, the point that he just makes, and we know like without speaking like of someone else's, even our own father's experience, what we've said so much in the space that you and I have been able to reach on this podcast is realizing that like he stumbled, he got asked by a friend, hey, why don't you come to church with me tonight? And he even in that place was like, I don't want any of this. And that's where he had his revelation and his entire life and he had kids and his entire life was chosen after that. Every single moment of his life was chosen after that night. And we know of his place, which is the same place all of us end up, which is who am I? Like this question of like, what am I supposed, purpose, right? Like that need in our culture and our society to have purpose and to have a meaning. And especially when you're like this toxic masculine white male focused culture, you're pushed to be some sort of leader. And our father just ended up being the one that was like, I'll sacrifice my life for the greater good of God and all of mankind. My purpose is for all of mankind. And what you and I have learned pulling away from the church is like, oh, we don't have a purpose for humankind, right? Our purpose isn't to give our lives to the, our purpose is to live and to be alive and to thrive. And that has a rippling effect on all of humanity. I don't think dad actually chose. I think you make a really good point. I think I've always felt like, why would he do like, why would they, why would people? I feel like I go back and forth. I feel like sometimes I'm like, he chose and other times I'm like, the cult got into his head and he got lost to the cult mentality. Fear, not knowing who you are. Exactly what Forrest has brought up. The fear of damnation is a huge motivator for a lot of oppression. Yeah. Yeah. We know that you have a relationship with our parents as a young, you know, and I think that there's a, we will probably end up having more guests that come really kind of from our core background that our parents were high school pastors in the church and there were college group pastors in the church, and then they became assistant pastors, worship leaders, and then pastors. Couples, counselors. So then you're a kid, your dad becomes a Christian, were your parents separated? Yeah. Yeah, they were divorced when I was pretty young. So then you'd go to your mom's house, which wasn't a Christian household. Then you go to your dad's house, which was a Christian household. What was that experience like as a kid? Yeah. Well, I'll tell you, because since I was so committed to my faith, and by the way, you'll see me like doing this the whole time. So hopefully that's not annoying. No, no, you're fine. It's annoying for me. There's something going on there, but. It's all right. But yeah, actually, since I was so committed to my faith, going to be, you know, living with my mom was actually highly anxiety provoking because I was constantly afraid that she was going to go to hell. And I felt like, you know, and probably my sister too, like I, who also I would say wasn't a Christian. And so, so yeah, like, or at least to the degree that I was at that time. So yeah, I was always a fear that these people are going to go to hell. And I know that I'm sure that I voiced that with my mom. I know that I, like my great grandma on her deathbed, I like had to see her to evangelize to her, you know, like that was my highest priority. And, and so yeah, I think it was, it was hard to, to be in that environment because I was so, like I said, I was so committed to my faith. You know, and even my mom was, I would say more open to me being like, maybe having more of a sexual experience or like, I remember she got this, like how to have sex tape of it, you know, she like wanted me to watch it. Like it was like an intersex thing. And I was just so convinced that it was just all so sinful and like, yeah, part of me definitely wanted to watch it. But part of me was like, you know, totally at war with that sexuality, you know, anything before marriage being okay or condoned. So I think I really kind of rejected that influence from her. Totally. I mean, I, you keep coming back to this, it sounds like so much of your stress and the weight as a, like as a Christian boy into manhood. I mean, man, I feel like I'm looking in a mirror because I was kind of like the pastor's kid in the youth group that like other guys, you know, I, at least I assume they're all looking up to me. So I had to be perfect. And I remember, you know, telling guy, like putting my hand on their shoulders, like, you know, it's okay that you masturbated five times this week, let's pray. And then meanwhile, I'm like thinking like, all I want to do is masturbate and I feel so bad about this. And I was like a leader in the holding people accountable and having these conversations at like 14, you know. And so sex was, and Zach and I have talked about this, I don't think it's as much of a, wasn't as heavy of a weight in his life. Sex was one of the most powerful things most of my life. And even now I am in my, with my soon to be wife who has like been a huge motivator and uprooting that sort of like stigmatism and trauma and like helped me to feel safer in my own experiences and all the sexual experiences. But it was, I mean, it still lingers and leads today of me feeling these childhood deep down inside feelings every once in a while. And at the same time, like you've said, like, I would love to have watched it. You know, I think like if I'm in the moment, like I really wanted to, but I was so afraid of that sin. That was like my life. And like I was pulled out of all the sex classes in school. My parents wouldn't let me go to them. I was made fun of for it. And I thought I was the good one. Being the one kid that was taken out of those classes. Yeah, totally. Well, you also thought you knew the truth of abstinence. Yeah. You're not going to have any problem if you have abstinence. I was very confident. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Talk about consuming. I would say because it was so off limits and such a sin. And just because I was a teenager, like it was it was on my mind constantly, you know, and I almost, I would say, got kind of OCD about it, honestly, because any time I had a sexual thought or any time I like checked out girls or women, like I would always feel like, okay, I just sinned. I need to confess this to God. I need to repent. I need to get back on track. Or if I really was getting off track, you know, then I just say, fuck it. Although I never would say the F word. Yeah, 100 percent. I would just give in and just let myself be consumed with this kind of almost like trance of like, I just have to look at women, you know, and, you know, and feeling really creepy about it the whole time. Like, Oh, my gosh, I'm what's wrong with me, you know? But, you know, being rebellious for, I don't know, an hour until I found something I could masturbate to or whatever. And it'd probably be honestly something like the, you know, clothing part of like one bikini and like the clothing is something, you know, too extreme. But I would feel so bad about it after. And then, I mean, I just did things to like punish myself because I was so, felt so bad about it. It's just such a, I mean, talk about how like that. A hundred percent. Little did you know, like keeping yourself from pure nudity and only doing like a bikini, you were like delayed gratification. So you were just building up that pressure crusher of more of that like need to be a human, right? Which is like, I just like a need. So you're like, I'll just hold it like this. And that's like what people do to like create more pleasure, right? Like you didn't even know that you're creating a more of a pressure cooker. It's funny you say bikini because Zach and I have shared, we only had, I only had access to eBay underwear ads. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Which even, even the eBay underwear ads would get flagged. Was it on people or just underwear by itself? No, it was on like mannequins and then it was on people. And then I would find like JC Penny or Macy's underwear ads in the newspaper that my parents would leave out and I would grab one and put it under my pillow at night. And I'd be like, okay. And I would feel so crazy that I just did that. And I believe this is my only act because our dad, you know, had what was called covenant eyes, which was. Oh, yeah. Do you know what that is? Oh, totally. Yeah. Like only a select few people that were, you don't know what that is. They're still a company, man. They still, I saw one of their ads. Oh, I'm sure they're like three times profit, right? Their value is only tripled. Yeah. Come on. Like it's just makes, I mean, it works. That all seeing eye. Makes the house a jail, that's for sure. It's like crypto or any other stock market. You get all those reds, you know, dad's gonna come in, you know, I got a 10,000 point on eBay. What have you been watching? Yeah. But yeah, I know that. I know that feeling. The, I got to do this. I got to do this, but I'm going to do it less sinful. Yeah. Wild effect. Wild effect into my adulthood. Yeah. Yeah. And also, like, there wasn't, like, for me, there wasn't a lot available. Like, the internet came out when I was like, a senior in high school or something like that. I had to like that. And I think that added to, you know, just the intensity of it all because it wasn't, it was hard to find stuff. Totally. So, to me, I mean, I think that made me, I definitely felt creepy, like around women, because I was like, very interested in checking them out. But then I also think that, and had shame about it. But also, I think purity culture kind of teaches that, that, that like, men are especially like, you know, depraved, like out of control, like you can't show any skin or else you'll make them sin, you know. So, like this, that mentality of like, guys are just predators kind of thing, you know, like, I felt like that, even though all I was doing was just wanting to, like, check someone out, you know, or just see, just react like normally to their body, right? I think that whole culture made me feel even more like, like, something was totally wrong. Totally. Totally. Could, if you can remember, like those feelings, then something that Zach's always brought up was like, The horny mice. Yeah, that pastor that. I just have this vivid memory of being like 12 at a men's, well, it wasn't even a men's retreat. It was like a camp. And then they had, they separated the men into one like, group that was gonna have a male pastor, and then I don't know what the girls are doing, but they weren't a part of it. And it was a big, it was like a big Petaluma get together too, because Petaluma, the church that we know you from, was the big church in the area that brought all the kids. This big pastor, I won't flash his name, but you definitely know who he is. Don't do that. Don't do that. But he kept demanding that we're all us men are horny mice. He kept calling us, you horny mice. And I remember sitting there and I think this is why I remember it. I remember thinking, but I'm not one of these horny mice you're talking about. Like, like, I'm not consistently Because you didn't actually have those. Well, no, I just like I felt so much shame for my desires that I just wasn't giving into them. As like some of these other boys around me were always talking about sex. I was too scared to talk about it because I would think just talking about it is the sin. And it's a big part of it. And so when he was like, you're horny mice, like, dude, I don't even, I don't even try to let myself think about it. I don't even talk about it. I am not one of these horny mice, but they try to like, drill it into you that you are like this predator. And if the women show more skin, you're gonna that predators gonna come out, you're not going to be able to handle yourself and you're gonna do something bad. And it's like, Oh, then I'm a bad person. It's like you're, it's like you're born in a faith in, you know, a father or family that reinforces when you just want them to be proud of you that you're born bad, you're born wrong, and you don't have control over your wrongness that you didn't have a choice in. So women have to protect you from themselves so that you don't what our word them. That's where the thoughts go. It's like, Oh my gosh, if I, if I look at this woman too much, I can't help. And it was like this feeling would be like, I have been trained to not be able to control myself. So I'll a lot of this looking up to the corner, like not being able to look at woman in the eyes. Yeah. And like, and yeah, and it's toxic, dude. That's horrible. I know. And you are taught to like what Jesus said, like, if you look at a woman lustfully, you've committed adultery. Exactly. You've already done it. Yeah. And how many times did we commit adultery? Billions. Yeah. And then I was like looking at men and I would get that feeling and I'd be like, Oh my God. Oh my God, what is this? And I would just suppress any sort of homosexuality or bisexuality or gay or not even like just a sexual feeling. I would just anything that wasn't about women. It was like put into a box. Let's suppress that toward an adult. Yeah. And then I like a drunken, you know, like 22 years old, something happens when I'm drunk and I have this and I'm not having a Christian for five years and I have this overwhelming feel like I'm dying. I feel like I've, you know, because I've had my first gay experience and I have this childhood shame I haven't felt since I was a kid in a way that I never felt. And I'm like, obviously that's been going on since I was 10. I just had no opportunity ever once to even have space for it. Yeah, totally man. Yeah. No, that makes sense. And that's, that's so cool that you shared that. And I, to me, like part of now, like part of my healing really is like just getting so curious about my sexuality. Like, like you said, like, are you, am I bisexual? Am I, what am I interested in? You know, like, honestly, it's, it feels like kind of one of the most exciting times of my life in a sense, because I, and actually, it's funny, the other day I wrote, I created a sexual bucket list because I literally have all these things that I want to try sexually, you know, even if it's one time, you know, because it's just like, there's so much time to make up for really. I mean, it's fun. It's fun, but also it's like, like I said, like the biggest part of healing to me is learning who I am and getting really curious about it and getting curious about my desires. What's just the openness? Like, it's really an openness and excitement to discover who I am outside of religion in every way, you know, like discover who I am, but also create who I want to be because like there is so much freedom now. It's like, so yeah, to me, that's like a really meaningful part of healing, honestly. So I just, I love that you shared that. Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that. And you're, this is now, so many times this word curiosity is being brought up between me and my fiance talking with my son, you know, about he's like 12 and his mind's becoming more and more curious and in his situation, it's a split family. And so very opposite family. And the other side that seems to limit curiosity. And so there's a lot about this idea of curiosity and something I said last week was curiosity really seems to be like the fertilizer to evolution as human. Like any species, anything that's like made it through is because it's like curious of anything else outside of its nature. Yeah, but it's supposed to be in like, I really do think I was so curious at 1415, right, like where I was so scared, but it like I was still for some reason able to like, and I think this is my exact biggest difference was at a 15 I was so scared being curious, but I still was curious. And like the littlest bit of curiosity is what inch like an inch warm me to be like, an angst teen who just wanted a little bit more. And I didn't know that more was. And so I had a couple friends that made me feel really safe. And they were kind of pushed out of the church for being curious. And I was like, there's such good people like I should be with those curious people even though I don't even know how to feel safe being curious. Yeah. When did you start that? When did you become curious outside of like, outside of religion? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, there was quite an evolution, as you might imagine, from being a teenager and being a young adult to being out of my face at where I'm at now. But, yeah, just briefly. I ended up going into recovery from porn addiction, I called it. And I was very serious about that. And I ended up through that abstaining from porn and masturbation for 17 years. And I considered that my recovery. And I even wrote a book about it called Life After Lust. And I became a sex addiction therapist and became like, really well known in the sex addiction world, especially amongst Christians. And speaking and writing newspaper articles, like I went crazy on this. Holy shit. I was very, very passionate about this whole thing. You know, like, this became my career. As a Christian, you're a Christian therapist who abstained from sex for 17 years as a Christian. And then you were a very successful Christian sex therapist, as you would say in those circles. Sex addiction. Damn! Yeah, that's wild. Yeah, that's a little caveat there. Yeah, there was a little bit. So yeah, it was, that became my life when I talk about being obsessed with purity. Gotcha. But I also consider myself in recovery from porn addiction because I felt like I was fighting that urge so much and like I just would fight it, fight it, fight it, and then finally give in. So it does kind of make it seem like an addictive process. But it turns out, they've actually done research on this, that a lot of Christians think that they're porn addicts when actually their level of porn use is average, if not below average. Wow. But there's so much shame and thinking, oh man, there's so much wrong with me for doing this that, you know, I was one of those self-diagnosed porn addicts and all those around me just jump on board like, oh yeah, he's a porn addict. Like they, you know, that was really like, and I got a lot of attention for that. Like, I'd get up in front of the church and give my testimony about fighting porn. And, you know, I was one of the only guys that could actually achieve that. So honestly, it made me feel like kind of like a superhero, especially once I started to get like famous in my, in my realm of influence. Like, like that was, that was pretty, pretty big deal. Wow. That's, yeah, that's like, talk about this. We were talking about purpose, talking about being like having like a purpose for humanity, right? And like all of your familial trauma. I'm just, I'm not speaking for you, but just hearing what you're saying. The religious, and then the religious trauma that's compounding as a kid into your adulthood. And you take that trauma and you like crunch it into a presentation. And you're like, I'm a, and they're like, you're a star for taking your trauma and putting it into a box and displaying it for us on a paper. And that feet, that Jesus complex is being intensely reinforced. Seventeen years. It's like, didn't Jesus go into the desert for 40 years and 40, like 40 days? No, 40 days, 40 nights. Like, dude, you're like better than Jesus. Yeah, seriously. So he was very proud of you, right? Is that what you felt? He was so proud of you. Yeah. Yeah. And all the, all the other leaders in my field, you know, like I got so much, I, it was very, it was an exciting time. Honestly, it was really fun. But it was also like, really, like I didn't really, it was before I actually got into therapy, like real therapy. And so I didn't really realize I was, you know, I had this whole narrative of being a porn addict and fighting this part of myself. But, you know, after I got left Christianity and got into therapy, I really realized that I wasn't a porn addict, but I just had all this sexual shame. And I actually ended up unpublishing my book, which was a major thing, because that was like the dearest thing I'd ever created that got me, you know, that affected so many people. It really got, yeah, people were really touched by it, honestly. So I took my story back from the public. But then I also started, you know, had conflicts with it, too, because I was very anti porn, very much about like, I actually wrote an article for Covenant Eyes, and Triple X Church and all these people, like I was really get myself out there. So, but yeah, now, now I really, one of the reasons I could never republish the book is because I don't, I'm not anti porn. And I think porn can be amazing. I don't see myself as a porn addict. So, you know, like, I am like sex positive. And I, like, love the idea of people expressing themselves sexually and finding themselves sexually. And so yeah, there's many reasons why I can't do that. But that also switched, helped me switch from being a sex addiction therapist to a religious trauma therapist. There we go. So that's, that was, I know you didn't ask about that. But that's like, that's so interesting, though. We don't need to ask. Yeah, we don't need to ask. That was interesting. Something you brought up, though, is this tendency to call yourself an addict in the church just because you gave into something a couple times. I remember multiple men for sure, would tell me they're porn addicts. And even as like a young kid, I'd be like, are it ad using the word addict? That means you're like, obsessed with it. But they obviously it's probably more of like, I've watched it a couple times, I must be addicted to it. And then I, you know, you live with a real addict in your later lives. And you're like, Dude, I don't think anyone I was around was an actual addict to at least porn or some of the other things they bring up because there's just that layer of shame and guilt that makes you like have a confirmation bias on on I am an addict or, or in the church, I'm doing it. I'm doing the wrong thing. So therefore, I must be addicted to it. But I think that's a really interesting topic you brought up on, and then devoted your 17 years to being a porn addict therapist. That's so interesting. Yeah, and write a book, write a book and then and then take it back. Take your Yeah, that's like a whole nother. I just like everything you just shared to what's fascinating is you just shared a little bit of your story. And I'm connecting already so much with your, your experience. Because I've abstained for like, I was on a I did a plant medicine retreat last year. And I'll do it again this year. And you abstained from sex and porn and any sort of stimulation for like, if you can up to a month. And there's something so fucking powerful. pulling ourselves away from all forms of right that I have found. And I know that connects to my child. And I know there's a lot of things I experienced when I abstained from certain things. And, and so like, regardless if it's religion that got you to do this, your ability to say no to these things for so long does speak miles to who you are. 100% human. Yeah, because I regardless of religion, regardless of shame, the ability, it sounded like you were an addict, and not doing it right. Like you were addicted to not doing this. Yeah, yeah, totally. And so I think like so much in. And I know that we're going to have you back on in studio, probably in another month, which is gonna be amazing. We'll dive more into like what you what you do and like how that looks. But the connection that you made, what you just said is like, and not just doing it twice or three times and you're an addict, it's this connection to addiction and shame. Right. And so you could be addicted as a kid to video games. If you think that that's against God, then you're in your addicted video gamer, and you're addicted to you smoking weed, then you're an addict of smoking weed, because it's this or that and like when in reality, there's so much shame outside of the things of the Lord. And when you're born in this or when you're like running it, everything outside of what is God's will for you can become an addiction outside of God, which is that shame reinforces. And everything we talked about now is a spectrum. So even addicts right are on a higher level of the spectrum rather than it being this maybe you tell me I'm wrong. But that's how I look at things now as a nurse in the hospital I get to meet. You can imagine real addicts and see what happens and watch human beings, their bodies die in front of you over years because they can't give up. And then you start to be like, oh, addiction is deadly, depending on you know, like, it does ruin relationships. So, and I think that being born in the church and having this much religious trauma that's reinforced into this way, that other side of being addicted to the shame, fucked up a lot. relationships, even after the church, because sexually, right. And I think that like, outside of the church, I was with partners that weren't religious ever who would like no religion in their background, but it would crush them if they heard I had looked at porn. So I remember I was in a relationship once in the middle of my 20s. And I cut all porn out because my partner at the time was bawling at me because she learned that I had looked at porn. And I looked at I said, I know what to do. I'm good at this. I'm good at this. I'm good. I'll cut it all out. I've been here done that, like, I'm not even a Christian. I'm, we're good. And it felt like, oh, it's my fault. Oh, it's my fault. Yeah, every woman I was with, before the woman I'm with now and marrying reinforced, and I'm not blaming them. But there was like this, like, it just felt like I could never escape the shame. I was so shameful in all my relationships, you know, like, I thought I had a problem. You know, when? Yeah, and so incredibly sad, man, I think that I'm in my life at 33 years old, as a very sex positive, outgoing and explorative. And now so much more open sexually and breaking down that gender identity so much in my life. Still feel guilty. When I look at porn. Yeah, it feels like it's just so long. It's taking so long to feel at peace and safe. You know, like I said, my partner now is such a huge support in that, you know, to not be alone in that experience. And so, yeah. Yeah, and I mean, that's the thing. And I think it brings up a really good point that like, even though we leave the faith and even change our beliefs and all that, like, the religious trauma and the religious shame is like, embedded in our nervous system and in our bodies. And it doesn't just go away when we change our minds on our theology. And so I what I found was when I decided to use porn for the first time after 17 years, you know, after I had left Christianity, talked to my wife about it, you know, we're on the same page, I end up using porn. And I felt like I was able to do it without shame. And it didn't feel it didn't even feel addictive. It was just, you know, I'm sure it was amazing. But what happened afterwards was I got this huge fear come into my body that was going on. It was a fear of going to hell. After, you know, if think about after 17 years, and then I do this, so that but also that fear of hell, which I cognitively didn't believe, believe in anymore. But my body really remembered that fear of hell. And so, you know, the type of therapies that I do with for religious trauma now is really effective at healing this type of trauma. And I ended up doing it's called IFS. And I ended up doing an IFS session with my therapist. And I was able to completely like, I mean, it was such a powerful session, I'm sure I was crying. And I ended up writing this really powerful poem afterwards. But I ended up just fully healing my fear of hell in that session. Wow, damn. You know, and it and I also did some like reading about hell in the Bible, some of that stuff was helpful. But to really get it out of my body and my nervous system, I had to do this deeper healing. And I will say to this, now I have zero fear of hell in my body at all ever, you know, and it really is gone. Like it's just kind of like a fictional tale now. It's just like, there is really no hell. I mean, it's so made up and nothing in my body is afraid of it anymore. Which is really nice. Totally. I think I can fully agree. But it's taken, I think till this like last few months of talking about our trauma for so long, to get to a point where yeah, hell does feel fictional now. It does feel like a Marvel movie or talking about where it's like, Oh, no, I don't think that's a reality. It's almost like your bodies, your mind and your body are more connected. Yeah. I love that what you said, because so much of my life feels like the last five years. It feels like ever since I left the church, I was making these connections, but I've been fully embracing this idea of mind body connection. When you really are in tune, and your thoughts are aligned with your body, and there's like this balance and communication that's happening fluidly, the peace and serenity is unmatched. That happens when I work out. That happens when I take cold showers. That happens when I, you know, these sort of things that I do that are like somewhat suffering, like putting my body into a state of suffering that allows my mind and body to like my mind almost like match it. And I've discovered that in other ways, but that's pretty amazing to hear that one therapy session can do that. And I think that, what did you call it? IFS. IFS, and that stands for? Yeah, it's Internal Family Systems. Oh my, oh my God, that's what your fiance, my fiance has been talking about this nonstop, and she's like putting names to her feelings. She's having full conversations with her family. It's pretty amazing therapy, man. Wow, that's some synchronicity for her. Okay, I'm convinced she will. I'm going to tell her that she's got it. No, so my fiance, she's in a master's program at Sonoma State coming up our last year for psychology. And when she learned IFS, she came home that day and was just like mind blown about like something she learned. And then ever since then, she's kind of been, I wouldn't even, maybe I'll use the word addicted to it because of just like the amount of help it's given so many people and it's a really beautiful form of therapy for sure. Wow, that's so awesome. And hey, I went to Sonoma State and I'd love to talk with her if she wants to ever talk about it. Oh, totally. Yeah, I'm trained in IFS. And it's honestly, it's life changing stuff. Honestly, I use it. It's kind of become my own way of connecting with myself and healing myself and, you know, talk about so plant medicine. Can we talk about that really? Let's do it. Let's go. Let's get into my favorite topic. Yeah, so, because, because if you think about kind of how I've explained my life, like being ridiculously committed to all this, and now I'm like, completely in the different place, right? You got to have a pretty fucking big catalyst to start, right? Something like that, right? You know, kind of like a little atomic bomb or something like that. And so for me, that was ayahuasca. There you go. Preach, baby. I will say I'm not actually recommending that to everybody. Like it's, it is like a nuclear bomb and a lot of people don't need that type of nuclear bomb like to change or heal. But it did. And how I even found myself in that situation is just totally outside of my character. I never would have done any type of drug. In fact, the Christian university I was working for at the time, that was one of the rules is that you can't do any drugs while you're working there. Totally. I had to be really rebellious to end up at this ayahuasca retreat. But honestly, like it, and I had already started questioning and researching and I was already really doubting some things when I got in there. But what it did was it like, I saw very clearly, it was like a very visionary experience. Like I saw very clearly that I like all the parts of me that were in pain, that they needed me to listen to them and be there with them. And it's kind of like rushing to me like I was letting them know I'm here now I'm going to take care of them. As strange as that may sound, but it was like a very strong commitment to basically find and heal all the parts of me that were in pain that needed me. And I already knew a little bit about IFS, but I really had this realization that like with IFS, we actually have the ability to heal ourselves. And that's part of what I do as the IFS therapist is I guide the client in healing themselves. It's not me healing them. And so that realization like we can heal ourselves, we can save ourselves. And then also just realizing through that experience that religion actually can't save us and we don't actually need religion to save us because we can heal ourselves. And I know this all sounds like big stuff that you would have happened in a drug experience, but it allowed me to break out of Christianity, get myself into therapy, get myself into IFS training. And it put me on this trajectory. Since then, I've been doing a ridiculous amount of therapy. I've healed myself at deep, deep levels, done lots of different types of therapeutic medicine type experiences. And honestly, I've gotten to a place four years later after leaving the faith four years ago to now, I feel like I'm not that we're ever going to be fully healed, but I feel healed, so healed on a deep level and just like so free to be myself and discover more of who that is. And I don't know, to me, this is the freedom that maybe Christianity is promising this type of abundant life, but I honestly feel like I have it and I don't need anything religious or really any other authority outside of myself to tell me how to live or what to do with my life. I feel like I'm in charge now and I'm doing a damn good job of it. So it feels really good. Yeah, totally. That's such a great story, man. I love hearing that. Yeah, man. I could have just sat here forever just listening. No, we are huge supporters of plant medicine. I feel like that's a huge part of deconstructing your spirituality is feeling something else that's spiritual. Honestly, that's the only way I can explain it for me. And that's so interesting that your experience was almost like the physical version of IFS, the way you were talking about it, where it's like you could see your other parts hurting and you could kind of go to them. Man, that sounds precious. And I share a very similar experience with you, and I have done my fair share of, you know, yeah, plant medicine deconstruction things. When I was really young out of the church, 17, 16, you know, we were like running off to Mount Tamapias and dropping acid or shrooms and climbing to the top and like grabbing on demands Anita trees and being like, these feel like cocks. These are penis trees, you know, like having like massive deconstruction at such a young age for like a party experience, right? Like it wasn't as much about this idea of like a medicinal gift, if you will, right, to humanity. But I, yeah, I too share, you know, last year, a retreat that I got exactly what I asked for, and it was about abandonment. It was about my fears of abandonment. And, you know, like I abandoned, it was ingrained in me, just kind of relating to what you said, you know, to abandon myself as a kid, to give up, you know, die to yourself, give up your cross and walk. I think like a lot of what you just shared is kind of this, your experience is what led to self, like you being, like you are the answer to your own life. Whereas everything you were raised in was you are not the answer, will never be the answer. And if you think you're the answer, you're sinning. So like, I had a similar experience, but it was like this sort of, I like became my own mother. Wow. And literally experienced at the same time, my inner child, me being scared about the time that I imagined the bad feeling started for me about eight and nine, having a bad feeling. I went back to that age and like the most painful experience of my life was out of that inner child, I like birthed out my own self, which was my mother, which was me. Yeah. And I like became a mom and like held myself and I went, oh, everybody in my life is just a person. Just because like that person's labeled my mother in this experience or that person's my father in this experience, I am my own mother, I am my own father. They are just these like things that were placed there. Yeah. For the time being, and like that experience for me, same idea, like gave, I could see my, like came out of body to see like the inner child, that fear, who that person is. Yeah. And then it's like, I never knew ever, I don't think I ever knew what it felt like to be that other part of my family and my own mother, that like caregiver to myself until that experience. Wow. And it was fucking revolutionary. Every day since that experience, I become my own mother in my car into the way to work when I wake up out of bed and I speak those motherly things. Yeah. That's so awesome. And it's, does that mean I'm not scared? Does that mean I'm not starting from depression and anxiety? Absolutely not. It's just such a powerful truth that's always there. Wow. That's so awesome. I'm just such a big believer in violent healing and the fearful steps into maybe just breaking this shit apart and starting over is how it feels, right? Yeah. Wow, that's such an awesome story. And yeah, that totally resonates with me as far as like even just the source of healing. Like, you know, even if people don't, and it's funny, I saw myself be born into my own arms kind of thing, kind of similar to what you were experiencing. But really, I think that's the key. Like even if people don't do IFS per se or plant medicine or anything else like that, like even just that idea of becoming your own parent will go a long way. Because in my experience, a lot of us that come out of the faith are still like really ruthlessly harsh with ourselves and really perfectionistic and really self-policing our every thought and action. And like, we don't need to do that anymore. Like that might have helped us survive the church, like it was survival. But now, like that part of us that has to be so harsh doesn't need to do that anymore. Like to me, like a big part of the healing really is, you know, appreciating that part of us that did that for us. But then also really working on, like there is a, even before I knew about any of this, I did a lot of research in self-compassion and really self-compassion. Like there's so much research in the area of self-compassion that really is one of the most powerful tools that we have really for changing behavior, but also for just self-acceptance and self-love. And really, there's just so much to it. And so I think, like you said, that motherly, being a motherly towards yourself, like just learning to love yourself and self-validate and self-soothe and self-compassion, like be loving, caring towards ourselves. That'll go a long way in helping us heal, honestly, and, you know, and not feeling like we have to be perfect anymore. And that's even in the realm of psychology or therapy, like we can get into this thing of, I have to heal everything or be perfect to be worthy. Or, you know, a lot of it is just kind of relaxing until like just being ourselves, just being here, being imperfect, just taking up space as ourselves. You know, like that is a big deal, honestly. Yeah, accept and surrender, accept and surrender, accept and surrender. So self-help can also become like a religion. That's what I've learned. Oh, totally. Totally. And I still am dealing with the, before we started this podcast, I was like telling Zach how I get nervous before these conversations, and I'm trying to work on being more present because I just want to have an honest conversation. And Zach was like, maybe try being less hard on yourself. And I was like, fuck, fuck. Okay. Wow. You know, so it's like every, I mean, yeah, I'm good at being hard on myself. That's why I've gotten this far in life is I'm a real hard-ass. I can really beat myself up to get to the next thing, you know? And like I've gotten, I'm inchworming now in my thirties, like we're getting there. It's almost reflecting on back what you said a few minutes ago where you said that that addiction to shame is so popular in the religion. And coming out of it, it's like, yeah, you don't have the religion anymore, but you definitely can be addicted to the shame. Oh, yeah. It's definitely what we know. Something I found so interesting, Forrest, about your story is how long you were in it. So you were fully still a Christian therapist for a really long time. Author, presenter, famous. Yeah, like everything you see in the field until four years ago? Yeah. So 40 years old. Forty years old? Wow. What a decade has been. I'm just so happy. Congratulations, Forrest! I'm so happy you got out. It's so common you see after a certain amount of time, the brain doesn't get out of it. You know, at least if that's the way it seems. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I had gone to, like I went to seminary. I was teaching in seminary. It was everything. It was my life. So, yeah, I think it is, I mean, honestly, I'm just grateful for anybody that's willing to look at this objectively. Not just, that's what I invite any person of faith to do is like, and I don't think everybody will, like that's the thing is you're not open to studying other perspectives, you know, when you're in it. Not at all. And you discount all the other perspectives. You just automatically, and that was part of what opened it up for me is I just had this thought all of a sudden. Actually, part of it was my family was there when the Santa Rosa fire went through. Okay. I felt like, holy fuck, this is so different than what I believe about God. Like, I felt so helpless being in like Fresno while my family's like getting taken over potentially by this fire. That was a cognitive dissonance type of thing that was starting to set in. But then I also, but then I started studying. I was like, this is such a weird thought for me. And so I was like, oh, I'm going to just look up like on YouTube, like what atheists believe, you know, like, I'm sure it's all bullshit, but curious, you know, and into this rabbit hole of Christians versus atheists debates. And then all this, like, I ended up becoming obsessed with all this stuff around this thinking, wow, shit, there's actually some like valid arguments here. And, and then Bart Ehrman, like that really was the icing on the cake when it started getting into like, how the Bible is actually not the Word of God, and how it's very imperfect and how it was translated and put together and just how many fucking mistakes are in it. Like, actually, because I was so fundamentalist and rigid in my thinking, once the Bible was discredited, it kind of, that was a big part of it just all going to crap. But then it was the ayahuasca that was like, fuck this shit, we are out of here. What do the Christians say the Word of God is? The sword? The Bible is a sword. The Bible is a sword, right? If you don't have a weapon to fight, what do you do? You try to protect yourself from all of the things that are, you can't be a fighter anymore. Yeah. You stop fighting, right? Yeah. I'm so, like, so if anyone's like listening or watching and you're wondering about these fires that Forrest just brought up in 2017, 19, 2020, 21, there's three major fires. But that four-year period of come home. 2017 was like the worst fire. But the big one's 2017. Yeah. I was evacuated three times, every fire was evacuated for eight days at a time. Yeah. You guys were evacuated the second fire, right? Because we were all at your bar at the time. Yeah. We had like everyone accumulated in your bar. That's when I lived with whatever their names are. And yeah, everyone came and stayed with us because everyone else was evacuated. That's right. Then we all evacuated out of your house. It was like 30 people. That was a shit show, man. Anyways, yeah, horrific time. Put a lot of things in perspective. But, you know, what an interest. So you're not in the area at the time when this was happening, but your family was still here and you're talking about the cognitive dissonance. It's funny, like, right, this idea of how the fire burns everything away to leave room for new growth. So that's like a beautiful connection for you. But like, I'm curious, the thoughts, so you're like a Christian, you're a fundamentalist at the time, these fires come in and the cognitive dissonance you're having is because you're thinking they're maybe going to die? Yeah, well, it's like that God isn't supposed to be allowing stuff like this to happen. Right. Yeah. So it's funny that the beautiful, random, and it's not really random at all, climate nature of Mother Earth is what like, it's almost like Mother Earth came in and was like, hey, buddy, like God ain't in control. Okay, this man that you believe in ain't in control. No one's in control. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there was that. Yeah, it was disturbing enough to be like, I feel so helpless. And this thing is probably going to take over this whole city. And there's like nothing we can do about it. And there's no, you know, God's not intervening. I'm sure people think that God intervened in different ways. But, you know, like that experience, and then I also had a really close friend die of cancer when I was, you know, and we were all praying and we were all believing he was going to make it. So there's stuff like that, that in hindsight, at the time, I don't think I doubted God. But in hindsight, like it does kind of reality, the reality of life and the suffering of life, if you allow it to, it can really show you that there isn't a God that's like helping all this stuff work out. Like, there really is not, I don't believe in that type of God. And I don't think there's any evidence for that type of God being in the universe that's, you know, really, like causing good things to happen for the people that are good and punishing those that are bad. And I don't know, like, it's hard to believe that there's a God that would actually be doing this if you believe any bit of science where you know, the species on this planet have been wiped out 99% of the species have been wiped on this planet six or seven times, which means the Earth's almost ended in terms of life continuing. And what was left was like fungi made it out alive. And that was the only species for a while. And then the next time was volcanoes. And so if you just look at the history of the planet, you're kind of like, God, this, this God's really been trying to wipe us out seven times now, like, and maybe they'll just give up after a while, you know, like, it's life, it's almost like life, suffering is a part of what leads to growth, right. And that's why I like to use the term violent healing. And I think like, I'm so sorry for that the Christian friend of yours that died from cancer, I've experienced so much death as a nurse. And for my connection to like, relating to you is I had left the faith at like 1516, and then became a nurse at like 23. And when I and I'd saw went to a lot of burials and memorials with my dad, right. And I was like, I as a pastor, and weddings and memorials were like, bring the kids were going. And so I was this concept of one thing I've learned is, I've never been able to feel fears of death or like the dying process. And I feel like a lot of that is because I was raised with a, you know, a man who was like, everything about your life is death. I think Christianity and especially evangelical Christianity, it's a death call. It's all about death. It's all about you're not supposed to be here. You're just stuck here. So do good by God so you can die. The planets not really cared about as much of the bodies aren't cared about as much, right? It's all about the death. So I've never really, I've always wanted to be afraid of death more than it sounds weird, so that I can feel it more or whatever. And I think that death really is something that will put this idea of eternal life on blast. Because when you love somebody, or when you're trying to help somebody, and you realize that even with all the technology we have now, you can do everything perfect and the body still doesn't always come back and you can do everything wrong and that body can come back like that. And everybody that goes through that process, they're either religious, or they're not. And religious people will always say, thank God. And I'll be like, well, there's billions of dollars that were just spent. So we'll just say no to the medical staff, thank God. And there's other people that wake up that are like, completely non spiritual. And I'm there like, no, obviously, there's more at work here than just like the science. Just like what we're doing. And so there's like this ebb and flow with death that I feel like in my life has been, that's why I do nursing, right? That's why I work in critical cardiac surgery. Because that's what I needed. I needed to be so close to what happens when, the amount of people I've watched breathe their last breath and been there and been like, what am I, and I'd stand in that room by myself with that person and be like, okay, I think I felt a little bit of weight leave, right? Then I look at the body and I'm like, I got to bag this body now. And how am I feeling? What does this mean to me? It really is just like, there's a soul is gone, right? And when someone dies, like, the body is legitimately no longer with life. And one of the greatest steps you can take in healing too is to be like, you're not supposed to have answers. You're not supposed to know anything. You don't have to know anything to heal. In fact, trying to know something and why it is, can lead you down these paths that will like rabbit holes of trying to find what? A better answer to make you feel safer or what have you. Yeah. Yeah. And so, sorry, that was a tangent, but you brought up death and I just think death has been a powerful tool in my life to where I'm finally starting to become a little bit more, death is something that I like. I'm enjoying being alive more and more and more. And I'm thriving more and more and more, which is making me respect death and appreciate it for what it is more and more. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's such a, I would say sacred experience that you get to share with people being there for their last breath. I mean, that's pretty amazing. It's the same. Yeah. And I mean, that's great that you're able to reflect. I'm sure that puts so many things in perspective. Yeah. I just think that I have gone through hundreds of experiences to be able to put death on blast in religious ways, in spiritual ways, in completely non-spiritual ways. And then the question like, why am I here? Why am I the one who's like, I'm still here? And then being like, what does that mean that every second of our lives humans are dying and then being born? It's too much. It's too much. I don't know. I don't know. It would leave me like, I don't know. And it was like, what I learned was the same thing we've been talking about, which is I am the answer to my own life, which means that I'm extremely lucky to be here, to be present and to be like, given these opportunities as a living person with these, because I learned so much from people right before they die and have learned so many sacred things from people right before they die. They tend to be like the most freedom can come from people getting close to their last breaths. And I'll tell you, one of the things I've heard from religious people, from people from prisons, from where it seems like majority of people have always said one thing to me, and I just take this with a grain of salt, is most people will just say, to have these hospice level conversations with them over long weeks or whatever, and the dying process can take so long, other times it's fast. And a lot of people say, if you have family, or you have friends you consider family, don't waste your time not with them. That's something that's been told to me so much is spend time with humans, spend time building relationships with the people you love, not pushing those relationships away. I always thought that was really interesting that this ego and this religious trauma and Christianity makes us so one way or the highway, black and white, it's you versus the world. And a lot of the people I've met right before they die, they're like, you really don't matter. It's the people that love you that matter. Respect that. And that's why you matter is because those relationships are that, I don't know. So I've tried to take that advice with my social anxieties and my insecurities. We learn so much from each other. I think that's why you as a sex therapist, or Christian sex therapist, you had a big effect on the world. Yeah, because we relate, we listen to each other, we like are inspired by each other. And so I'm a big, yeah, big, huge, I'm a big believer in this that we're doing is because it's creating better relationships, which ultimately, right? Yeah. Well, that's, you know, I appreciate you sharing your lessons from the deathbeds of people, you know, and like, to me, like death. And they're, you know, not believing in eternity anymore is such a relief, because you can just savor this moment so much more because it's limited. Like you, if it was eternal, like, you don't appreciate it as much, you know, you don't. Because you're like, hey, this is our only moment we're really promised. And, you know, let's fully enjoy it. Let's spend it together. That was the thing, the poem I wrote, after healing my fear of hell, was all about death and all about like, hey, we're like, this is this is all we got. And let's savor it together, you know, like, it was really from that place of like, hey, I could die today. And, and, you know, kind of finding peace with that. That's the big deal. Find peace with with death and, and life. And I don't know, it's just, when you believe in it. When you believe in eternity, it's just, I don't know, it almost like, makes the present moment less valuable to believe in. 100%, right? And I like, that's kind of what I was saying is this idea of hell and eternal life at all in heaven, it keeps your focus up from this planet. You'll start embracing things that aren't telling, like if science telling you that we're like, the planet's getting warmer, and you believe in heaven, you might be like, I don't fucking care if the planet's getting warmer. You need to give your life to Christ. Jesus will come back before anything bad happens anyway. That's the end times. It's supposed to get hotter. Yeah. Turning into hell. And that creates a really hard cycle of like, trying to, you know, converse with people about these, you know, I don't know, it's, it's a trap. It feels like a trap, right? To be stuck on that, like, and to me, like, it's really, it's the other sad part of it is like, people are giving their lives to this cause. And then they're like, missing their own lives that they want to live, you know? Oh, my God. The tragedy that is really that people are dedicated to doing God's work that they never and that's part of the joy of being out of it now is being like, okay, what what do I actually want to do? Like, I could do so much like, you know, just that that sounds like purposeful to me is finding all the fun things to do. And most of them. I mean, I, I have no apologies over most of them being sexual, because I just want to live it up. Honestly, I will. But it also you're a married man, you've been married with is your wife, right? And you have two kids. Yeah. You guys have been married for how long? Yeah, 18 years. And so then is she a Christian? Not anymore. Was that like, kind of your stepping out of the faith and she and you guys did this together? How did that look? Well, she was having, I would say questions about the church before I was like, and a lot of it was around like the social climate and with like, Trump and racism in America and racism, you know, just this more of the social issues, I think we're really The shit that matters. The shit that really, really matters. Yeah, exactly. That was starting to get to her. And then honestly, I think it was actually we moved from California to Washington State about four years ago. And honestly, I think that really helped us to get out of Fresno where there's like 500 churches and like all of our Christian community and get up to Washington, which is way different and, you know, way more liberal and open and honestly, like we just felt like it was almost like a start a do over like we got to kind of be who we were and be free and discover ourselves. So honestly, that has been major that we have deconstructed together. And now it's like we're partners in crime because we get to like, have all this fun together. Yeah, it's so cool. Like the other night, I don't know, two nights ago, we were just we were both high and we were just like, laughing so hard. And you know, it was just like, and then the realm of sexuality, like, we're thinking of all this fun stuff we can do together to like, not it all has to be together. But obviously, we're doing stuff, we have to do stuff within our agreements. But there's lots of possibilities. And so, you know, it's fun. It's honestly like, I feel so grateful that my partner has deconstructed to because, especially as parents, this would be so fucking hard if we were on different pages about religion. And, you know, so many people are in that position, and my heart goes out to them, because that is rough. That is, that makes this all all the more difficult. Totally. And how old are your kids? They're 15 and 10. So then the 15 year old kind of came out of the church at 11 ish with you, I'm guessing? Um, yeah, yeah, they. Yeah, and actually, it's, it's cool. Like, it happened at kind of just the right time that. Yeah. I would say our, our oldest son. Yeah, like he, like, we'll tell him some of this stuff that our Christian friends believe, and he'll just be like, that's so weird. You know, like, it's very science minded and very critical thinking minded. And so, honestly, I think we got them out at kind of just the right age for them not to have any investment in those things being true at all. It's, and it's so fun. It's like, it's weird. Like trying to figure out how do you be parents without these guiding principles. You know, like, this idea that we all like need purpose, one of the main reasons why I'm going back to do another retreat, or not reasons, one of the reasons I feel called to is I'm wanting I just want to continue to go deeper into my life and my own personal traumas. And one of those being purpose and the Jesus complex. And I think that like, it's something that I am like working through constantly is like being a creator or being somebody like in leadership roles that wants to have ripping effects on this world and, and learning how to like ego death at the same time embracing my truth, which is just to live my life and have fun bucket list, right? This is a bucket list to have a podcast. We're doing it. Bucket list was DJing. We did it. And so, but like simply, like if all, and I know this for me and my son, right, I'm in a situation where I was never, never married to his mother. It was a one night thing. And then he showed up and it was like 22, 23, you're a dad. And his other side of the family is extremely religious, also pastors. And I thought to myself, how did it happen that I was born from pastors and ended up having a surprise kid that has a side that's from pastors. So he has multiple people in his life that are pastors, grandparents. And then he comes to the only house in his life, which is the, you know, your dad's the weird one. Okay. You have to be careful over there. They're going to tell you things. And we've learned that that's all being very true. And I think that though, for his experience that I'm learning now that he's like 12, right? Like it's wild how much he's changing. So we'll see how the teens go. But I was so, I had such a hard time coming to trying to like make sense of my life, right? With like how I never was going to be a dad that would ever force religion on my, I was like angry, but I was the other side leaving the church. And what I've learned, like as a dad for me, and I wonder if you'll relate, but that like this idea of purpose started to, and the Jesus complex started to just unravel when I realized that like all I wanted was all these fans in the world. And then when he came into my life, it was like, bro, you have one fan. And if you don't do right by that one fan, that fan's going to hurt like you did. Because your dad had all the fans in the world and didn't put the attention on you. And I just thought to myself, okay, so I'll put all the attention on my son. And what I learned in that process, what I had, I had to focus that attention on my healing. And what I got from that, I believe is like, if I just focus in on me, like I just got to keep going deeper with me, my children, like my family, my relationships benefit. Right. And so like, it's almost like so much easier being a dad with the same sort of like accepting and surrendering by just watching my son, letting him live and responding to him rather than being like, don't, don't believe like the same. I don't want to tell him what to not believe or this and allow him to like, go through his experiences, but to have maybe one parent like a father figure that's just like, yo, I truly accept you and love you. No matter what, go kill it. Go do it. Go live your life. Yeah, that's, I've never felt that from a parent. And so when I realized that it was like, oh, I don't have to tell him anything. I just have to love him and work on myself so that I'm an example that I'm proud of. Yeah, right. Because I don't even I'm learning how to parent myself now. So it's like, it's like, exactly. It's wild. Yeah, yeah, you can. Yeah, that's kind of how I see it to like, I'm a parent of my kids, but also my of my inner children, you know, like, exactly. Yeah. And honestly, the more we heal, as parents like that is the most predictive of our kids being okay, you know, is us. And then, you know, as far as parenting, if advice, if I would call it that, I don't, I wouldn't call it advice, but it kind of comes back to that word curiosity, you know, like leading with curiosity with, with our kids, you know, instead of just assuming we know everything and punishing them when it looks like they're doing the wrong thing or whatever, but you know, just leading with curiosity, like that will go so far. That's the IFS kind of concept to like, even the parts of us like don't respond too well to feeling judged, or like we're coming in to change them, or, or think our way out of whatever they're going through our feelings or whatever. But if we can focus curiosity on any part of us that's feeling any emotion, or any body sensation, like we come at it with curiosity, or any person or any, any of my clients, like, it honestly, that's what disarms people, is curiosity and openness and compassion. You start any conversation with, you know, judgment or assuming you know what's happening, like, it puts people on the defensive, like nobody, it doesn't open up connection. And so, yeah, I've learned a lot from IFS and relating to myself and also just relating to other people. And I don't know, to me, it sounds like you're doing a great job of being a dad. And you know, like, that's awesome that you're open to like a new way of parenting. And I know it'll make a difference. Thanks for that. I don't know, we've been going almost an hour and a half. And is there anything on your heart or mind? Because I want to respond to that. But that was like a really good. That's like a beautiful way to like, bring it all together, like approaching every relationship, starting with yourself, to then your own children, your family, and then your friends and the world. If you started off with compassion, openness, and curiosity, curiosity, openness and compassion. Yeah, what a recipe what a recipe for success, even if that person blows you off, or that thing blows you off. Yeah, right. That's still in the realms of curiosity, openness and compassion. Yeah. You know, it's quite opposite the it's quite literally the opposite of black and white. Yeah. Right. And coming into a conversation, like, having to assert your views, or, you know, like, feeling like you're right or superior to the other person, because of whatever, you know, that doesn't really open up a conversation or a relationship that, you know, anyone would really feel open or invited into in a healthy way. Right. Right. Yeah. It's like a lot of times we hear thoughts and prayers. Oh, thoughts and prayers, thoughts and prayers, thoughts and prayers. Yeah. And it's like, what if we heard curiosity, openness and compassion to be like, curiosity, openness and compassion? Yeah, let's do that. Let's get curious about the issues. Let's be open to change. And let's be compassionate with one another to accomplish that. Yeah. And the thoughts and prayers are a lot easier to suppress that shit and pray, give it to God. Suppress it and give it to God. Yeah. Not good. Yeah. There's some alternative. Yeah, there's alternatives. There's actually insane alternatives. I feel like that's a band name. All right. A question I like to ask all of our guests who have suffered from religious trauma that come on the podcast, because the goal of this podcast is to mainly let people who have deconverted heal, and by talking about it, by being open about it in the public, per se, but then also by being a voice to those still stuck in it, especially my heart goes out to the children that are really stuck in the families and stuck in their thought processes. They don't think there is a reality outside the religion. I can very much believe that. I know you understand how that feels, too. If there's any piece of advice you could give the kids stuck, the adults stuck in their mindsets, what would be that piece of advice? Yeah. It's funny that word curiosity comes back, you know, like, don't assume you know everything, you know, like, just get curious about the other perspectives in the world. You know, just, and I know that, to me, it feels like that has been set up as the enemy is like, no, don't get curious. Like, don't eat of the fruit. Don't go outside the box. But honestly, like that, to me, and kind of like what Nathan was sharing earlier about, you know, the outside world being like, the place of darkness and just the place of just, you know, just having a different view of reality. I don't know, I guess, coming back, I don't know, my brain's going somewhere weird right now. But I think it comes back to is just, I would encourage people to be curious, like, be curious about your body, be curious about your feelings. Be curious about how you feel in certain situations with certain people. Like your body, if you actually listen to it, will tell you that certain environments, and certain people are actually not safe for you, you know, and we're not taught to tune into those things, our own intuition, our own goodness, and, you know, our own realization. So yeah, like, curiosity and openness. Like, I think what people would find, if they were able to look at themselves from a more curious perspective, and not demonize themselves, or think that who they are is bad, like, they would find that they actually are quite beautiful people, creatures, you know, quite beautiful, amazing, like, actually good at heart, good hearted. And we don't need a religion to be good, you know, like, I guess, it would come back to that, like, it had, it takes a lot of courage, to be curious to be open to explore, you know, totally open to exploring a little bit about who you are. And because when it comes down to it, everyone else thinks they know who you are, but it's the journey is for you to discover it. And I think whether you end up being religious or not, if you can find yourself and heal yourself, and get to know yourself in the process, I'm less interested in whether someone's religious or not, because I think that will help them really heal and, you know, find meaning in a way that they never have. So, totally. And that's a common thread. I think we're starting to, well, he just said, COC, he said, curiosity, openness, and compassion. You added all three, you're like, well, the youth could use a little more curiosity, openness and compassion. Yeah, yeah. It's a good question, because it's really hard to answer. Because I feel like, yeah, like, do you want to say, you want to say so much for the kid? Like, oh, there's because you think of yourself, right? But like, you, what you just said is about how I did it. We interviewed Kim last week, the same thing she said was like, be curious, and don't don't need don't think you need answers, right? It's like, and, you know, maybe, you know, like, you need strength to even start growing that muscle coming out of the church. We'd never had that. It was like, the only thing we're curious about was like sin. Right? So everything's labeled death and death. And like, so like, they're that muscle of curiosity is atrophied so much and like, everything in life, it takes time. You can't lose weight overnight, you can't gain muscle overnight, it's gonna take time. It's not a fast. Nothing in life that's worth being a part of and living is quick and easy. It's like a, we have to trust the process and deconstruction. Like you said, will we ever be fully healed? Life isn't about fully healing. There is no vacation. That's what makes it so fun. There is no end all it's like, just keep going. Just Yeah, totally. So when we were ending here, I know we're gonna have you back on because you're going to be in town here in Sonoma County. And we have finally built our studio after a year and a half to be an in studio for guests. And so we cannot pass that up if you're gonna be in town. And we'll talk more outside of the cast and figure out that's going to be about I was thinking it would be absolutely amazing to have an in studio, internal family therapy session together. So that we could put your practice on blast and also show the world something that's real and an example. I don't know. We'll talk about how we can use your professionalism on our cast and you know, as a also a form of like learning from you. And is there do you are you accepting clients right now? Are you? Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. And, and even though I live in Washington, I'm only licensed in California. So all of my interesting all my clients are in California, and I am accepting new clients right now. And yeah, so I'd love to meet And that's what so you're Forest Benedict at Forest? No, at Forest Benedict LMFT. What is what is your website? forestbenedict.com forestbenedict.com. That's easy. Yeah, forestbenedict.com With one R. Forest Benedict with one R. Yeah, and even though that's presented, we, you know, if people have made it to the end of this podcast at 97 minutes, thank you for being here this long and listening to this conversation. You just heard that website, check out Forest's website, get in contact with them. If you're here in California, and, and or if you're afraid to do that, and you don't want to do that, just wait another month or so and he'll be here in studio with us. And we're going to do this again. Well, so much love to you for Thank you so much for and for the connections that we have to you in our childhood and seeing you as an older cool guy that was in a band and like perfect. Yeah, now it's super older, cool guy. Like still super older, cool guy. You're not really old. When your kids like older people are old. Now we're all old. Yeah. Yeah. You guys feel safe. I feel there is a lot of parental trauma for us in this. And, and I know that you have a connection to our parents. And I know that, you know, we try so hard to, we love them so much. And the last thing we ever want. We know what we're doing is actively hurting them and scaring them and putting them in a place that they've never felt in their entire lives. And so doing this with you, man, has made me feel safer and less alone in our experience in Sonoma County and like, knowing how ingrained you were with us and, you know, and, you know, and, you know, and, you know, and, you know, and, you know, and, you know, and, you know, and, you know, and, you know, and, you know, and, you know, and, you know, and, you know, and, you know, and, you know, and, you know, and, you know, and, you know, and, you know, and, you know, and, you know, reaching out to us as an older person. Yeah. And I feel like I can look up to you and your experiences and your professionalism. So I just like so much gratitude to you and reaching out to us and doing this, and all your work. Yeah, I feel, I don't know, I, I love kind of being in that role of like, kind of older mentor type person, you know, like, even as a therapist, for sure. But then, even just, you know, these types of connections are important to me, you know, and I, I mean, to this day, I your parents, your family, you know, your sister, like, they're all, they're all people I really like and care about, like, and yet, you know, I think that, like, like, yeah, some some of leaving the faith is finding, you know, it's not like, literally new family, but it kind of is like, you're finding will fully embrace and celebrate who you are now. Yeah, and shared experiences of trauma healing and deconstruction is like, trauma bonding is so real. But I think healing bonding is also exceptional, right? Define, define strengthening and like to be able to relate with you and your healing and be like, Oh, I've done that too. And be like, wow, more of affirmation in this process of the never ending healing journey. Totally. Yeah. To have community, you know, around you, because we really lose that I think in the church. There's, that's one thing they're really good at is creating community and helping you feel like you belong, I think. And it's important for us to find that outside of the Human nature, survival, you got to work together to survive. That's where we come from. Yeah. And our sister Natalie, who we love dearly, who lives in New Orleans still, she's deconstructed too, and living her best life. And maybe one of these days she'll come on our podcast. We've been trying to get her on for a minute. We thought we almost had her the last time she was in town, but she was like, no. But I have no doubt Natalie is going to be watching this and Natalie, we see you. I know I was just chatting with her right before the interview. So that's awesome to reconnect with her too. Yeah, totally. Um, well, much love to you for your family. And mad props to you and your wife. We'd love to have her on too, if she was ever open to her. That'd be amazing. Yeah, I bet she would. I don't know. I'll definitely ask her, but I would maybe just plant that seed for us here at the Moral Combat podcast. It can grow in six months. I would love it if she would want to do that. Honestly, they're really awesome. I just know that for us as men, and I know that I'm identified, I am a man and I am learning more of my gender identities breaking down. But on this podcast, I'm a white man. Sure. And so we there's so much that we can also like learn from and deconstruct by just the woman's experience from this deconstruction is so, you know, like, the fact that your wife was focused on social, the social things are what kind of like, that's like my fiance, like women, like men are, we're so especially like white men, the sex, all of us is like, so pinpointed. It's all about ego and us and like, so I'm just inspired when I hear that the world like the suffering of the world is what led people to deconstruct. I'm just like, God, that is so I'm on that path to I'm like, you know, like, that's where I'm headed. Like, that's why why that's why we're here. Like, you know, no, and I think you guys would. Yeah, I think we definitely would, would. Sorry, I'm like, no, no, you're good. It would be awesome to have her on like, well, the energy's out there. All right, Forrest. Well, thank you so much. Yeah, thank you for being here. Appreciate it. We'll get to editing this. And it'll be posted into not this Friday. It's not going to be this coming Friday. It's the Friday after. Yeah, I'm not sure what exact date that is. We're every other week. So thank you. Have a good rest of your Sunday. Thanks for thanks for coming to church. This is way better than church. Oh, yeah. And we'll be in contact, bro. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for gratitude. Thank you. Thank you. Wow. Wow. Forrest Benedict, everybody. Yeah, that was amazing. Thank you so much for coming on for us. Really loved having you. It's funny like that we had these amazing guests that are vulnerable coming on our podcast, our show to just to talk and share their stories. And so having somebody on that was like, we had no history with from a completely different side of the country, Southern Baptist to now the Calvary Chapel Christian Evangelical Church of Sonoma County. Yeah. Petaluma, baby. There is a, obviously there's a little bit of a deeper connection with that. We relate to that experience. It's almost like you feel, I almost feel like I just, there's so much we get to learn on this podcast, the more religions, like people that leave different religions. Like we're going to learn so much about what religious trauma looks like versus the Christian Evangelical Church. Yeah. Because yeah, Forrest there was like, that's our roots, baby. Yeah. That is our roots. Yeah. Loved it. Such an amazing interview. Loved hearing a story. What do we say? Should we call it? Yeah, we're going to call it. Zachary? Yeah. I love you. Love you. Have a great week. Yeah, you too. Aren't you starting college this week? I was supposed to, but they're on strike. Oh, we support the strike of teachers. So wait, you still start school, but you have to do it online? I have one class that is like, don't forget your essay is due Friday. Zachary's going back to school, university for psychology. So good for you. Well, neuroscience, like I'm using psychology to get there, but yeah, starting next week. I don't even know what you said there. That's what's all jargon to me. Yeah. I'm just a nurse. Yeah. That's all you are. That's it. Alright. Thanks for being here, everybody. We'll see you soon. Bye. Thank you.