Heidi Monuteaux on Deconstruction, Betrayal Recovery, & Therapeutic Healing | Ep 71 | Moral Combat

In episode 71 of the "Moral Combat Podcast," hosts Nathaniel and Zachary welcome Heidi Monuteaux, a therapist based in Boise, Idaho, with a practice known as "10 Mile Counseling," to discuss the intricate journey of healing from religious trauma. Heidi shares her personal narrative of growing up in a Christian home, identifying as the "black sheep" for departing from the Grace Brethren denomination amidst her family's deep religious roots. Her process of deconstruction began in earnest around 2010, catalyzed by her return to academia for a master's degree and further compounded by marital strife, including infidelity and gaslighting by her then-husband, a youth pastor. Heidi's transformative experience at a Seattle Pride parade marked a pivotal moment, challenging the church's teachings on the LGBTQ+ community and fostering a sense of love and acceptance contrary to her previous beliefs. As she navigated her faith's deconstruction, she prioritized creating a safe space for her children to explore their beliefs, all while battling the lingering guilt and self-doubt instilled by her conservative upbringing. The discussion touches upon the significance of "emotion regulation" and the detrimental impact of fear-based religious teachings. Heidi, specializing in treating betrayal trauma, religious trauma, and complex trauma, highlights the therapeutic value of EMDR and IFS modalities. The episode culminates in a reflection on the courage required to face religious trauma, advocating for gentleness, self-compassion, and the continuous pursuit of questioning as keys to healing. The hosts commend Heidi's bravery and contribution to the conversation on religious trauma, underscoring the episode's essence of vulnerability and the path to recovery.

Heidi Monuteaux:
https://tenmilecounseling.com

Moral Combat, hosted by siblings Nathan and Zach Blaustone, is a heartfelt exploration of life's complexities, with a primary focus on healing from religious trauma. Step into their world as they navigate the realms of music production, confront the lingering echoes of religious trauma, and embrace laughter as a universal healer. With each episode, Nathan and Zach weave together their unique perspectives, seasoned with dynamic personalities that make every discussion an engaging adventure. From unraveling the complexities of personal growth to fostering open communication, healing the scars of religious indoctrination, and embracing the unfiltered authenticity of siblinghood, Moral Combat is your passport to thought-provoking conversations, heartfelt insights, and the pure joy of shared moments. Join us in the combat for morality, one conversation at a time.

Moral Combat:
Youtube
Tiktok
Instagram
Twitter
Facebook

More Zach
SYNZ

More Nathan
(They are a secret...)

Transcript

0:13

what's up moral combat fans what's up everyone uh how's everyone doing actually you can't answer because you're watching you could comment you're doing i'll ask you zachary oh i'm doing great man it's easter it's that's funny because uh my name is nathaniel blaustone faust oh let's go zach blaustone this is zachary blossom we are brothers but i was recently why i added that last little hyphenated congratulations to me yes patriarch um yeah here on the moral combat podcast we like to talk about religious drama that's right that's why we say happy easter because it and when you're a podcast that talks about religious trauma specifically caffrey chapel evangelical church christ christianity christianity it's uh it's interesting you know we know that our own father right now is sunday yeah we're actually filming this right at 10 10 a.m so is legit didn't worship and we're starting our worship yep yeah how are we gonna yeah uh too many triggers um well let's just jump into today's episode with us another special guest i feel very lucky yes zach and i and i did year and a half together talking about 60 plus episodes in our own is we like to share our stories of being raised in any sort of radical of us that are actually able to get out alive because we know not all of there there's normally trauma there's normally a lot of issues that arise radical religious group especially when all your friends and family are like peace out um and so with us today we are so happy and very lucky all the way out of Boise Idaho Boise Idaho um they are a therapist a they have their own private practice called 10 mile counseling they'll what they do more do a better job let's give a round of applause to hey guys hi heidi good morning happy Easters happy easter if you don't celebrate easter i've been telling people go or a rabbit no it sounds like a way more fun easter too i wanted to just i did think about eggs when i was cracking them this morning yeah crack eggs right yeah that's like the real easter celebration he's cracking today heidi i'm good i'm really glad to be here feeling energized and conversation and looking forward to sharing my experience so thanks for so much gratitude here for you to um step out of your comfort zone to come recorded podcast that'll be on youtube spotify apple podcast but specifically we are a visual podcast and so if you want to see zachary's beautiful face my beautiful face and heidi's beautiful face turn listening go on youtube yep or tiktok or whatever or hop on instagram and crazy exactly you'll see a lot of shorts from this episode soon enough here um how exactly to remind me how did you even find out about our to this point yeah um a friend and colleague of mine that you guys had insley i mean sorry gosh forest benedict i know forest benedict um guys's social media um and i think from there we just kind of took it i am yeah i think if i remember you hit us up you'd like dm'd us through yeah i'm pretty sure it was a it was you hitting us up which it's time on our podcast we were reaching out when we were started to maybe do we were reaching out to people and 100 at the time we got uh no nose i that i will not share my story yeah and then um a good friend of ours who uh decided that he was like for like months they were thinking about weren't sure and then they finally decided like hey i'll come on the my story and that kind of started and then forest was on after that and net of a huge community of people and um so that was a huge blessing for here you are so i just i have a lot of gratitude for your vulnerability i um what zach and i have learned is our topic here in our podcast isn't like it's not politics it's not comedy i mean it can be funny always easy for us to do this i feel like every time we get started or always like okay here we go again yeah because they're heavy stories thank you for yeah um having the strength to want to share your story i think your story is really important and we talked a little bit this um probably a way better podcast than you know that's the best podcast the phone conversations those private conversations um yeah maybe a little um why you're in Boise Idaho right now right yes correct um i've only lived i've only lived here for about three years washington state so um yeah the whole pandemic covid thing housing market path to to move this direction i have a sister that is in Boise so it just everything's telehealth so i was able to move uh my family here and kind of i was doing um in my practice with my mental health clients um online so and to be honest with you Boise is way more um sunny than the western so i had to get out of that rain i bet you did yeah that's i know some with overcast a lot of rain and wetness which it's fine but um you so you are married or you have kids yeah my um i was raised in eastern origin is in eastern washington however um yeah my kids are here i is 16 which is crazy and my oldest will be 23 this year so five of them all here too enjoying the sunshine and settling into the space of adults five is enough five is a lot is more is more than enough yes that will around you know it's the it was the christian thing to do you you have of them so um although i enjoy and love each one not return them or give it definitely is kind of part of my religious story yeah in fact they all names so there goes that oh yeah so do we yeah i mean i'm i'm nathaniel version so everyone miss spells it my whole life and this is zachary which to call you zachariah i wish they did i think zachariah is way doper but zachary zachary's good yeah sometimes i call you zachariah and uh or the cool too when we had forest on both of his kids are like biblical to the is nathaniel spelt the same way as me and i was like you damn christians um let's uh let's jump into your story um were you i'll just this is question i asked everybody and you can just take it from here and we'll born in a radical christian family were your parents christians were you the church or was that something that you found later in life i'm pretty picture of me as a newborn in some some sunday uh you know service kind so yeah i was born i was born into um christianity really and looking back choice so i have the very traditional you know ask jesus into my heart when old on the living room couch with my mom i'm pretty sure that's how the yeah i mean that's cute it's damaging but cute yeah so it was so cute yeah needed that because the other alternative i you know i i didn't seriously was that something you thought about it that can you even those things at that age yeah that's a good question i think i think for was more drawn to just doing what i was told right like doing what was compliant um i was not the rebellious child at least not you know younger was kind of more because that's what i was told i needed to do and i did um i think that's kind of my driver versus um more of like the fear of i know it's christianity but was it like dominant denominational non church you guys were in yeah it was called um grace brethren church um yeah i don't i don't know anything other than to call it that um i know strong baptist um and we grew up in the same denomination that my mom was is it jerry falwell like i remember listening to him in the mornings ready for church like it was you know service on top of service oh yes we the pastor and so he was teaching morning day night and what was that jerry is it jerry falwell so it's like yeah i've heard the name before i can't think of yeah i feel like every time we interview someone they yeah that was like their guy like ours was chuck smith yes okay right yeah everyone has their own elderly white male yeah i'm pretty sure now i may have the name wrong in fact i may need to quick but i'm pretty sure that was the liberty university um guy right of controversy around liberty university for sure um recently so then how many okay baptist that's right so we've interviewed someone so you're like washington baptist washington baptist be interesting it gets and baptist is baptist which there's a lot of correlation with non-denomination or the denomination of a church we were raised in a lot of rules it's one way or the highway black and white right so you're giving your life to christ with your mommy on the couch i know story um do you have siblings yeah i am the oldest of five biological adopted sister damn so yeah i'm i'm the oldest and lots of lots of aunts again that's kind of what we what we did we just had big families procreate it's it's yeah i think it's that's in the book of psalms you must it's deuteronomy i have forgotten all of it um so then are you the only one like i guess you said you live with your sister is your sister still a sister yeah who lives in this area um i would say i am the black sheep of my family so i'm kind of the odd the odd man out um yeah the only one i think the only one there may be some cousins um you know extended um family members like aunts and uncles who were kind of kicked out of falling in line so yeah i'm i would say definitely black sheep um trying with these family members yeah and it's really challenging it's been there's just um something that feels so safe to christians when things and if there's any kind of difference in belief or thinking or action it i don't know if you guys remember that but i mean that's how i was thinking that way too growing up it's like you know we did not um you know that were non-christian we did not spend time with anyone that were you marriages like we did not spend time with anything outside of what we knew to be you know anything less than than christian i guess so yeah um what comes up with my family currently it's like she Heidi she too scary wow so then your sister though that you live in i said live in the same area as Boise she still like goes to church so they're at yes that's so interesting so then you have a good really you have a good yeah i do have a good relationship with her i think if we can keep you know things of god or christianity or kind of my history or today or how i'm parenting my children if we can keep conversations i can have you know kind of a really surface level relationship with my when we get you know intimate um it gets it gets a lot more challenging we totally understand that yeah we have a rule in our family that's no it's just rules and it's been that's probably been the hardest boundary to i had to have multiple conversations with my folks um about why we're because that was such a common theme especially like yeah just they're such a part of our family it almost felt like that's what that's what we they i don't know it seems like that's what's familiar is that we and so now that those boundaries are up it's the relationship's doing so way less aggressive way less exciting at times because it's you know which um so then when when did you walk away or why did you walk away how did probably a lot that happens in between you being five years old and you did walk away yeah i think my beginning to take steps from walking to school to get my master's in counseling so that would have been really amazing university professors and i think oddly enough it was at a so you know there's some interesting pieces in that um but i think because know we are trained to be non-judgmental the curriculum really cultures a lot of different people um a lot of different experiences and i to ask questions that i never had to ask or never really got the me to things that i really never ever was exposed to so i think those beginning um were really instrumental in my walking away i think in a marriage where there was chronic infidelity um chronic gaslighting um the work that i was doing around that also was instrumental in it and i a little bit more about the church harm and really the church abuse and that was more you know directly connected to my relationship with my my husband at the time um i think that played a big part in it too that piece of it made religion really confusing and so i think because of to start questioning a lot of the things that i was i was taught so i think really started my process of walking away wow so it's basically your marriage and how that correlated to like what you were taught in the handed down from those leaders in the church those connections and you said take effect or whatever in 2010 so that would have been 14 years ago so started your deconstruction almost about 14 years ago yeah i was like that's a good it's a good one up with yeah yeah i've grown up with kids you the whole deal and everything kind of started crumbling um around me so guys know i mean that's a scary that's a scary experience for anyone setting that feels very safe and familiar for 30 you know 30 years 35 everything i don't want to say it blew up all at once but it definitely of fell out from under me and i had to kind of face face it you know kind slapped me in the face yeah it's like the it's like the planet starts it's like gravity fall it's like every all of the laws of physics that understood right it's like wait a minute you're telling me the whole way and i have this yeah i am i am my own person and i'm a label i'm able it's fucking mind-boggling when it happens and it's apps it's absolutely 15 or so when i started i was still living with my folks i was a teenager was a great like a teenager's you know like these it was so so and so much pain but like it was such a young kid and so um zach was you mid-20s when he kind of started to really deconstruct but he had that were deconstructing as well and um and so i think that there's a anything is better or worse but just that there's a significant difference with kids in your 30s and then all of a sudden you're like mind blown um what that was like but before we get there so you're not you're not what you're not married anymore yes i'm currently divorced so that was kind kind of walking away from um christianity you know i i went ahead the big d word right god god hates it um and i kind of drug my feet with long time and um yeah i ended up a few years ago kind of pulling pulling um and i'm still alive and i'm i'm thriving so yeah there's there's that your husband was still in the church while you were deconstructing yeah as sharing nichaniel i was thinking you know to have you know me be the one everything um you know married to someone who um when we were first um i think that that was really um that was really a crazy experience feeling like i am betraying everything that i knew um and then me as their mother deconstruct i think that was pretty intense on the them to be so unsure maybe worried about like what is what's happening where it's like what we're not gonna go to church this sunday like what in sunday school our whole lives you know what's what's happening um over over time really yeah it's a it's a journey a big crazy experience then you got married to your ex-husband while he was a youth pastor yeah so that's kind of the beginning maybe the beginning of my adult story in a christian home the oldest of six kids you know really wanting to be know getting these messages that you know my mission really on earth is to serve my husband one day to serve others and you know how do you come did what i was told um very grateful that my parents pushed me to get a before i got married that is the one thing i will say um they did a lot i will say i'm very grateful for um my dad was very certain that he did like rely on someone um my husband to be specific but i knew like this is and you know i was very i was very godly and when this man showed up at camp that i was a counselor at he was also a counselor i thought this is my you know like here we are at this this wonderful youth camp weekend or you know this is kind of my typical what i was told i was supposed to be you know looking back i feel like i didn't have really a choice in it it me and i just knew it was kind of like a god thing and um i think we 21 um when we got married and yeah he was a college student to become a so was youth pastoring that um year of our engagement and then that first married um so yeah living living a pretty godly christian life at the yeah that's like perfect you were like a perfect christian woman and i will say about that perfectionism i think really is what a lot of my thinking um and i did i wanted to be a good christian girl just accept jesus into her heart because she knew that's what was the yeah perfectionism is something that i'm also really working or have you know the last 15-20 years yeah yeah join us yeah i don't know i that perfectionism seems to be one of the one of the biggest ones for me you know on every level which and our last interview forest we actually perfectionism and how there are benefits to struggling with in your life turn out to be pretty pretty good right if you're like perfect way it's just the amount of shame that comes on the side is it right absolutely yeah but you really that really is like that story trauma like packed in that story alone right you're so young like that also that your dad encouraged you to get a degree that yeah that he didn't from that radical religious family like uh education was not pushed in in fact it was kind of discouraged by you know people in the church leaders that it would pull you away from the things of god and so christian know bible schools were looked at originally and um so i would say yeah parents at least you know pushed you to do that yeah but even with your degree you still got swooped up by the good old youth pastor i i did i sure um and i do think everything kind of really crumbled when this um big chunk out of my um just my self-esteem my self-worth um i i on the hot seat like what did you do wrong um you know i was doing if things were so perfect and i was doing everything right why did this you know that is something that i think as a christian there was a lot then this will be the outcome and you know when i did everything right and i was in this marriage where there were a lot of secrets and um an couldn't think of it any other way than blaming myself um so ultimately to try harder and of course right we're 21 years old um we were poor he's a youth pastor right like we have no money for help so we um we mealed it together on our own and did the best that we could i think i just his shame got bigger which kind of took his secrets um into hiding more about our way for another six or seven years just kind of making the um and it was it was pretty miserable i don't know if we knew that it was it was pretty a pretty miserable marriage we were we were busy with we were procreating so um i think i had i was pregnant with my second about the affair um and just you know just kept doing the church thing the kids being a submissive wife honestly kind of giving him more sex more in the bedroom to keep to keep him you know home um keep him hard as a christian wife to try to keep everything together and and not working i was hoping that it was working but it wasn't working so yeah know that that's a while ago now and i'm sure you've done some serious i mean yes to like nailing that a little bit more so you went through found it came out that they were having an affair um there you guys in the church were you guys like in leadership at this time or were you and a part of it yeah at that point in time um he was no longer leading a moved um you know and i can go into those details if you want but i i kind of probably dealing with his own crisis of faith you know here he was this horrible thing um i think we found that we needed more support and to family um he at the time kind of told me he did not want to be a youth we ended up moving to be closer to family and he had a job opportunity not um we're actually at the time not attending church um when when that came out i kind of went into what i knew as familiar and i said i need to um so i went on you know the church shopping uh spree and tried to find a really i thought would kind of take me in as someone who was in crisis um i found a place and the both of us went and we actually experienced experience where we found ourselves in a christian a christian pastor's and this christian pastor basically looked me in the eyes you know we we there this pastor looked me in the eyes and who said how do you need to what jesus would do and here's the scriptures here's prayer like here's you need to you know really kind of do these things more um and i thinking right the good girl the perfectionist okay i need to forgive that day and left and could not figure out why for the next years was so incredibly angry um and again right not having any skills or any what was found in the christian church um to deal with things like trauma and i just had to stuff everything and i kept stuffing and probably another seven or eight years until i found out about another that crisis that would have been about 2007 2008 that crisis i said we the church wait any longer like i need to step outside of the faith and therapist um and found someone that specialized in affairs and infidelity did a different a different route um i will say that that mental health of a christian-based therapist and looking back probably was not correctly um and so i think we landed in some unhelpful hands yet again um about it like in 2007 2008 we didn't know a lot about trauma um not even therapists were just really starting to understand um the trauma and the nervous system um and i think um you know that work where i did really and my body that came later like that was in 2017 um when i really started so backing up kind of 2008 um just really having to stuff stuff stuff a of staying in those cycles of shame i think we just we were so stuck we stuff um and the shame really coming from right he had done the most awful recover from that who do you talk to about that within the church like talking about that or at least we couldn't find them um in fact the back in 2002 i'm gonna say um we actually found out later that he um um so it's kind of like yeah no one no one really knew what to do with us you know pastors didn't know what to do with us they didn't have the with their own sin um and and it made it really hard for us to get any good recovery wow damn everything you just explained there there's so much we everything you just said there like but the first thing that's just like the the trauma and pain in your past marriage and how it was like re years is um not shocking right coming out of the church and knowing how there's like a lot of things that you said here that just kind of show how of the christian church of the evangelical church reinforces this especially like you being a woman and saying from your experience like the with a pastor and one man you're probably the only woman in the room like you should have forgive this man and little do you know the past cheating on their wife so you're like surrounded by men that are cheaters the cheaters but like before that it sounds tell me if i'm wrong but it the church and where you were at as a woman like you had no other option that was just like can you kind of explain like maybe what how again felt like to you just the fact that was there any way out in your head just kind of like i'm gonna stay with my husband because that's what i have figure this out yeah there was really no option out um i think maybe i was option but it was so laced in shame that i knew it was not even was was divorce um but i knew there was no way that i could divorce my community like i knew i was going to be excommunicated because that's what and i didn't really experience um you guys probably don't recall michael singer artist christian artist back in gosh maybe 1997 i'm guessing um affair and it was like a big thing in the church back then and we were not we were not we were supposed to burn the cds or burn the tapes right like knew in the back of my head i i couldn't i couldn't do that i needed and i needed my family and i think the way out was not it wasn't an little i had little kids at the time um i didn't know how i was going to back of my mind i had this degree um and that was part of my story i did back to work at that time um but yeah it was kind of just you know submit make sure you're up in the morning having quiet times like be a better go away so yeah that was that was kind of my answer that was the only option that i thought i had back then yeah was there any female telling you the same things or was it just mainly male leadership telling well of course the female that i had exposure to it was her along with her pastor um so there was still that male influence that male presence in had no experience of it for themselves so i think you know the like we're gonna pray the demons away we're going to anoint you with oil make sure you're in every service like that was the answer and that it didn't work for me those answers did not work for me and those answers people i see in my practice um which i'm jumping a little bit this is a infidelity um chronic eating um so betrayal trauma is what i specialize people that are coming out of the church are coming from the church um the bible is great and all but the bible doesn't work for you does it does not work for betrayal trauma um there's a lot of verses that do not marriages um and i think when i start planting that seed for these people relief because they too do not they can't see a way out because the does not give you a way out of abusive relationships you know it's i great right but it kind of the culture and the bible in many ways i these abusive relationships i mean god is an abusive god who demolishes people's wives into pillars of salt if they act out of line and try to and women in the bible are from as much that i've researched aren't light or any sort of leadership role right um and so definitely yeah to place to like be like maybe this isn't the book you should be going to the trauma that you're in wow that's fascinating um yeah yeah we'll jump curious you were uh staying in this marriage for like seven years or and then 2008 2009 2010 you're kind of like you're getting your masters time right and you have five little kids so your youngest is two at the getting it right yeah so this is insane the fact that you're getting kids you're in a tough marriage going through all the trauma and you like straight a's i assume so you're very smart you know that i will say um i in my life get straight a's if not close to straight a's and that's kind um it's a whole nother part of my trauma history is you know really pressure growing up and being in that state of fight flight freeze i was a as a child i was just always so worried that i was doing something to displease god or or the authority whoever that was at the time um i now so stressed i couldn't actually be in the part of my brain that that does if that makes sense um i could not be in my prefrontal cortex i had to be brain that part of my brain was so activated that i did not feel safe school settings and actually learn so when i got to a university and had and had done um some of my own work in therapy um i was a much better and i was actually quite surprised by that i've never heard anybody put it just said makes me think a lot about my childhood schooling and yours yeah never thought of it that way um that's a really brilliant way to like stuck in our trauma and it was like really unsafe we were homeschooled then i was back in public school seventh grade i was so so scared in yeah and it was i i did start to learn a little bit at that point of that's a really interesting perspective to think about trauma cortex versus the trauma in the back where you can't even come to the be there wow yeah yeah it's really interesting yeah um yeah so then you were saying these professors have really helped you just by like the right the diversity of humanity in history and were you getting your college as well yes yes so then it's like a very progressive liberal um that actually was there is still an assemblies of god um university particular masters had a very strong emphasis on social justice which can term in the christian church so social justice and multicultural was very broad so we looked at a lot of different cultures um native culture um lgbtq plus culture like it it opened our eyes to a lot of things it was really it was really helpful it's the first time i i was exposed it really got me thinking and again like i said i was safe enough to let and you were going through this immense amount of trauma you know you're saying like suppressing all that shit so then the moment that diversity really in an educated way it sounds like your mind was like pre for whatever that curiosity would bring right because it's like that curiosity was a huge seed in being like wait a minute maybe the white living isn't good or isn't the only way is it the only way in fact it caused all the colonialism and that's why christianity is blah blah blah because right at all all roads lead back to race and the power of the is like astonishing it's absolutely disgusting really did anything like master's program with social justice was like the impact of the christian other cultures or these other groups of people never that was not something that was talked about um i do know since there's been several chosen to leave that university because um you know they've cracked probably because of why or or what's happening in our culture um just even years um i think they've cracked down on a lot of professors what is it of faith um and what they sign when they're hired on um so i know a lot a that i was exposed to they've left um that university so um yeah i i think got pretty lucky um to be exposed to a lot of the experiences i did for master's very very grateful for it yeah and i mean and like i said no go said that just kind of started this cascade of events that really um got and and then you know to start my my private practice um the people that office because at the time i was kind of marketing as a christian therapist you know i was getting people from within the the walls of the church were coming to my office um looking for a safe place to talk about you to people of the same sex um why is this you know happening to me um you so stuck in this loop of like masturbating and pornography um you and i had to get pretty stinking creative um and really dig deep into and figure out like how am i going to help these people because i did not much of this that was happening inside of the church because i don't inside of the church we just give a list of rules we give you know the 10 not to do and that's kind of how these situations are handled um these conversations inside the church um and like i said that was that was layer of my stepping away from the church is realizing in my trying to these people that the way i was thinking and the way i was taught was helpful wow fascinating so so you started your practice as a christian you don't are you do you still consider yourself a christian i don't um on probably the the best of days if if i was to look at my old the best of days i would say i'm like i'm a jesus follower i think i still beliefs with me like i want to show up in my life how jesus showed up to do not consider myself a christian as as the world as the world would yeah the religious part of christianity really turns me off the that kind of um living just again really really turns me off yeah yeah pretty wonderful human if you just read the bible and like what jesus proclaimed if if our government ran off of jesus's terms you know we'd health care and a lot more funding for the poor and all these amazing that's not how the religion runs so yeah totally right yeah i've always miracle jesus ever did was getting a lot of people to follow him which is men do i mean jesus wasn't considered white even though a lot of christians make him white but um yeah i think there's a lot of aspects of jesus's incredible um i still hold on it's like the more i heal and the more i anger issues and you know depression and anxiety like the closer i get to know however you want to call that i find myself feeling more and more of jesus when i was a kid and be like oh actually this is how this is how i be and it was so hard to match that as a kid right to be like jesus and my mental health and really dealt with my issues i feel more of that and light right and like a lot of my mantras are things that jesus would just say them to myself you know i just say i am the way i love that um before we get so then you're like 2010 you're two years into your trying to kind of get to where you decided to go through with your then you're on your own what was that the transition did you guys when you were deconstructing in front of your kids and also when you're front of your ex-husband i mean did you guys deconstruct together i mean how did that work i guess and how did you end up on your own in this new new life yeah i'm gonna be a little sarcastic here and maybe call myself but i kind of took that um my curiosity and just kept sharing it sharing it with him um in in the process of deconstruction and our um therapists um we were also needing to do i didn't mention this but he went went back to school together because we wanted to do this work together oh is a therapist um so in this process of becoming therapists we're having and we're having to face our own shit and we're doing our healing in this therapists um our individual healing and through that healing and i'm gonna say what was your original question well i was just my nailing it but yeah this this happens to me all the time yeah just that you're deconstructing you guys do say you're going back to school together with you or that whole process yeah so again me being kind of this the way um and we were also needing training and right doing our own work as individuals he actually came to me and said um hey i just want you to completely honest and i want you to have the truth now um and basically making a very long story short but basically with the help with the help um basically disclosed to me that um you know he had been keeping a lot of a lot of our relationship for the whole time really um and we we worked to repair the trust that was broken and i just think even though he person um he was showing up as a different person i think rebuilding so deeply broken was going to be an impossible feat and i think again and realizing like i have options i have autonomy i can make my own my own opinion i can trust myself i can show and practice self-compassion a lot of my own trauma work with wonderful therapists again um emdr is brain spotting i just got more and more clarity around my need to honor all those times that i kind of did the christian thing and just like forgave him and um kind of the self-betrayal i i experienced it as self me but i was also betraying myself and so i think divorce was just kind coming back home to me and really showing myself that i can be a you went through this divorce with all of what you just said and then i know it's not like cut and dry right nothing like this just happens but then you're on your own right and you have these kids and you're not anymore there's this you know christianity that you followed your you started to really i get because you said you started your practice as when i guess i'm trying to get is like when was it when you really you had been living for so long and through all that trauma of the there like a light bulb moment that you made the connections of the compounded into your marriage and compounded to his life and you know getting at like yeah yeah i love that you're acknowledging it's not going so that's great like i think it was kind of this gradual thing i will say really big shift that you know as you ask the question even i can feel it know when he kind of really blew my world up one more time i kind of felt hold on so so hard to the old way the christian way and it's just not almost like hitting my head into a brick wall right i've got clients out of the church struggling with you know normal human things that the want to talk about um i've got my marriage that's kind of in the cycle and then i've i've got this other part of me that's like opening my amazing things and um i actually started to pursue a certification in i'm going to say that was probably 2016 and in that in that um do is a SAR it stands for sexual attitude readjustment i think so it training of just being exposed to all things sex that's simply i could say things sex one of the things was to attend a pride parade in seattle um if i do this like this is like a big rebellious step right like this is but these other people are doing it right like there's other christians be okay we're gonna be okay i've got people supporting me in this i pride parade and feeling the most love that i have ever felt in my it was magical like that's the best way i could say it like it was everything that the church told me that you know it was supposed to be um these people were so kind um i felt so welcome it was like so many people being so warm and loving to each other it felt honestly it felt more like jesus than you know the the church has ever felt and i think that was a big that was a big huge shift um for a lot of i would probably put it back to that moment of course a lot of lead up to that actually the next summer i took my whole family with me so brought at the time and brought my five kids and i think that was a really eye everyone you went to another you went to the next pride parade yeah that following and and i think we've almost been to one every every one it's an experience and i would highly recommend it to any of our listeners folks yeah i love that i love that you brought that up heidi because um deconstruction as well or at least like a pinnacle moment of like being lgbtq ai plus community and just feeling the love that is just so hated on and demonized and then just like realizing that that's just so i'm i'm so happy you mentioned that such a big deal it's legit it's legit before i say anything why like that is a pinnacle experience to have um church like going to a pride event and then coming out of it and being my upbringing yes why why do you think it is that that culture that community like why do you think you felt that with them like where is you think um i think for me it was the fact that the church had drilled that these people were evil and bad and something bad would happen to me when that when i didn't experience that when i actually was hugged by they actually asked like who i was and why i was here like when these me when i saw them caring for each other and loving on each other um and so genuine and authentic i thought yeah i thought there's of almost validates that what i've been searching and maybe what i've it connected that next piece like this is nothing what i have been yeah that's a beautiful answer it's it's like being being surrounded by through so much trauma and discovering their own true identity like a group to celebrate that to be like we're celebrating identity and can stop us yes and i think that coming out of like the christian fuck your identity your identity is in god only yeah right i think that energy when zach and i like he was still so like wasn't but he joined me and being a dj and we were djs for many many years in la and the probably the most supportive and i was long gone out of the church drinking myself to peace as a party animal but some of the crews that i san francisco was the pride and homosexual kind of lgbtq plus dance shows we played over like eight years um we had the most love and support pride the pride events that we dj'd were just like like not even thing related it was just business just business alone it was the best support the most love so i just think that there's so much about a celebrate identity because theirs was held down for so long that's just has has such healthy collaborative energy for people like us where coming out is about discovering your right it's kind of like coming out of the closet them so if you're watching this right now as somebody who's also dealt with identity breakdown it's not the same but i think that like identity it right is like that's what you get from that community so that's relate to that on so many levels and to this day um is like a never-ending deconstructing gender and like you know accepting more of my truth which you know really open and diverse and fluid individual and i think that that community is so positive so that's really cool yeah i mean to that you brought your family and at the time you're married right and so you're with me the five of you are with me i'm showing you guys yes that that leads me uh your kids in all of this so you you start a pride parade you bring them the next year what what's going on with mentioned earlier that your kids kind of were confused about like we were once we're not can you speak more on like actually their experience in all i would love for them to speak for themselves um i know you know i i try safe space for them to come to me because they're still processing all to process it for a long time um i think you know they're i think experiences and i think they're still very confused by those experiences i grieving a lot of the things that they didn't get exposed to you know did a lot of like we don't watch movies we don't watch tv um we don't especially when they were um really little like they were very very school we did the home school thing um and i know to this day they're lost a lot of those chances to do a lot of the normal healthy and understanding of who they are as individuals and not um you know who to be and i think as adults now especially the older ones because i teenagers at home um but the older ones are free too and they have their sexuality um things like do i want to go to church as an adult now you know stay home on sundays and and hike or sleep in or watch an R-rated they get to do all those things now and um yeah i think for them i'm i just keep creating a safe place for them to come back to and be open in experience was like and the things that they wrestle with now and i i think that's something that i experienced from my own family of and rigidity and rejection if i don't do the same thing and i don't want experience so that's something that i've learned and hopefully i can kind my kids as they experience me differently than i was a decade or best response you can give when someone asks you to speak on someone you're like well i can't speak on that but i guess i'm going to take it another way what was it like and what is it like being a mother who of their children right i understand that you brought your family with you got to see this like see like please experience what i'm experiencing but you raised them very strict we were raised very strict very similarly and experience i know what that experience is like kicking against it like come on mom like just let me so then as you know our parents are they're pastors they have gone just harder and deeper into their faith since we've started this podcast and so i have never been able to talk to these things but like what was it like as a mother then being in the and then realizing the way you parented them then versus how you're how was that how did that feel for you yeah well again my experience was deal with just mom guilt anyway about you know am i doing it right i messed i'm not doing enough and i think that even as you ask the question i feel of that guilt like did i fail them then you know how much hurt did i trauma um i know they're you know working out their own things now and of that on as my own my own responsibility my own guilt um and i think i'm so stuck in the old way of thinking that i question even now you know this morning should my kids be at church it's easter you know um sunrise service um are they going to be okay i think those old messages embedded deeply and so kind of really living into and reminding myself like different and reminding myself um you know daily that i have an experience serve them better i think i just have to kind of keep shifting my focus um that you know when i tell them this like i'm still i'm still learning i'm and i know they're learning and they're still in process and you know i think is important to me as a mom yeah i mean i dream of that with my yeah i think like normalizing these it's so normative to have guilt as a i think that like it's not an uncommon feeling as parents i i have that i could possibly do right when it comes to religion and like raising situation and still i feel like i'm never doing i can never do enough and learning how to like exactly the same thing you did was said or like the life that he's living without me telling him this way or the highway and i like you know there's times where his you know his grandparents and his mom's side is they're they're like very religious too and so i control if you will over what where what church my son goes to or what he and yeah that's been a new experience of learning how to accept just him thing that i was raised with which was extremely destructive right yeah you guys are familiar with laura anderson's book um when religion religion as emotion regulation and i think nathaniel what you're talking for us as parents or just us as humans to be able to regulate our and knowing that when we leave i guess leave our religion behind it feelings right for example again as a mom to watch our kids maybe make scary i have a queer non-binary child that brings up a lot of really because it's not something that i um know in my body to be safe based off and so how can i ground myself and soothe myself around all of those um and still show up for my child i mean that's what you're talking about the highway i think that rigidity is what helps christians to to regulate don't think that's helpful christians are probably the most fearful people and so a lot of this like rule following and rigidity is so that that they don't have to feel their fear so learning other ways to present to the feeling and in the body is so important and it's again the church teaches the church teaches that emotions are bad and the body is do what god says it's it's yeah it's funny because what you just said is what my countless times over and over and over uh which you know like when we you know that's gonna be something right it's gonna have a reactiveness religion aside everything aside like life is so scary and especially when scary and it all falls on us right to do the right thing or what have you and surrendering life and not allowing fear to be the driving force a huge part of our human experience and so i think that that's a really it has been it was embedded in the religion from you know birth this with fear around death you know like oh i'm not afraid to die i'm not that perfect sort of christian outcome they're just help there's into the wind they go right and you're just kind of like and so anger one reactiveness in my life same with our upbringing right that was like a experience was that you deal with shit with anger that's how you deal i've had to learn from me personally that fear went to anger and then i understand that anger more and understand why that anger was what regulate that because anger is a huge part of the christian religion i tables over right so like anger to me growing up felt like that was the you know like they can you know and so at times like my son i or even my like so much of what has been the relationship breaker the issue has of fear which i'm happy to say has been resolved so much through all of you know so there's been a lot of benefit from that um basically what felt like was a little snippet of what it's like to be your client so you um share with us then a little bit about your practice like are you specifically on religious trauma as well right yeah i set out as a trauma so i i work with a lot of um infidelity um a lot of out of control and the impacts that that has on an individual and because of that i have just kind of morphed myself into someone that works with a lot of the two go hand in hand you know there's a lot of sexual shame where control sexual behavior um or people who are kind of really struggling sex and sexuality um religion i think religion is a big part of that so deconstructing religion is is um absolutely something i specialize in therapist and i am trained to do brain spotting which is kind of a i also use a lot of internal family systems or ifs and deal with a lot of anyone who really wants to work on their trauma history and and showing in healthier ways and i love i love what i do yeah i mean that's yeah we that's like pouring out of you which is amazing you're also incredible at sharing this and so i think you've chosen the right field um and if is or internal family systems we just interviewed for us benedict who gave whole podcast on ifs specific to religious trauma um so go ahead and brought up emdr and brain spotting which you're a specialist in so what yeah emdr stands for eye movement desensitization and reprocessing and works with your nervous system to process trauma out of your body and create new neural pathways around something that's more positive so it's been well researched working with veterans to be really beneficial stress um and it i needed it um working with the people that i work certification that i got a few years maybe four years into my practice and that tool um what we use with emdr is bilateral stimulation of the nervous with actual eye movements where you're following your therapist's tapping bilaterally or buzzers that buzz bilaterally we're getting the neural pathways and wire neural pathways um together so it's very talk therapy it's a nervous system therapy where we're doing a lot of so super powerful it's like therapy on steroids and um people that know it fucking magic because it's very effective and very efficient pretty yeah it's super cool either either of you been exposed to it curious it's uh the tapping or whatever when i first when i when i got kicked out of walking away from the church or whatever and smoking cannabis i i lived i was online like looking up all this type of stuff like just uh um and i found tapping therapy and i like downloaded some sort of i that was the only experience i had i tried it on my own and i was like and it you know of course like that was it and uh so that's my close sounds powerful i would love to try it i think that that sounds amazing i've been exposed a little bit to it but i haven't had the experience i've never done an internal family systems therapy session i've started reading and um but um so i've never like sat down with a therapist and done that um i personally um yearly do some pretty intensive plant medicine that kind of encompass hundreds of different modalities all into one insane um transformative and so but um that's great yeah and then um what um yeah brain brain spotting is pretty similar to emdr so very body um not a lot of talking or just paying really paying attention to the that's different rather than moving the eyes we're actually keeping the where when you think about the trauma it's most intense so um we're keeping and we're processing our trauma with our eyes fixated on that spot and reduces the stress um distress levels in the body and um gets that trauma so that we can again go about our lives living um you know in a that trauma doesn't have the power over our nervous system so go ahead gonna say just it's just a little bit different from emdr the eye movement yeah so then both of these though it sounds like you're like i don't know is the right term but you're basically like regurgitating this physically emotionally and it's almost like it kind of purges out of yeah yeah yeah i mean that's a that's a great way to describe it um it's so um you know we're doing we're using a lot of resources and a lot of clients so if it's too intense we don't want to overwhelm them with the memory we're doing it in a gentle way where it's something that they can so not not to be scared of it um you know we're we're making sure we're emdr therapist will be very careful with with a memory that you know is experience because you said that when you were seeing therapy right through what have you you did a lot of emdr right before you were teaching it or i avoided it for a long time um and then i knew that if i wanted to be a clients that i needed to go do my work so um i started doing my work um into my practice and was doing a lot of emdr therapy around my history yeah i felt that that work was very beneficial um i also did a lot of ifs and that work is incredible um and then did some brain spotting so i then go get trained in the stuff that i experience as helpful and um that people yeah you can be like a live the living proof that it works yep doesn't work right i've been trained in some things that also weren't don't use those right those are kind of lower on my list of right um tools of sit at the bottom these other ones kind of float to the top because helpful and scary i like how you said it's gentle and soft my experience purging drama to better familiarize myself where it comes like getting it for me like i i benefit so much from intensity like violent healing is it whereas other people do not benefit from violent healing at all and softer approach but i think the older i'm getting i'm learning how i like i've been getting such a soft therapy with my therapist now for retreats i go on for the most part have been extremely aggressive and the healing process but no doubt so amazing and so therapeutic and that is sort of having to relive traumas in such obscure ways to where then i myself with the age of that child that experienced that trauma which is taken much a stronger role in being able to sort of categorize these ages as a kid and um but yeah that's it's it's something i'm definitely uh definitely want to have a much more intensive or not intensive but therapy session at some point totally maybe we shall see just so if you're you know we're just as human as you are okay none of us get out alive we shit but it is scary and i like i'm scared to do it i even with all the i it really is a process and you know when like us if you're watching this were somebody that were born like we were out of the womb into this god damn this trauma goes so deep and i feel like every time i make a new my my own truth or my authentic self i'm always like very quickly reminded creeps up that fear is still there right because life never is never is new new opportunities to like practice these like really healthy well um here we are is there anything like because we've just been going at anything like off the top your head right now like on our cast or just would want to share or you know anything at all i don't think so i'm the fact that this is scary work and that's a huge piece of this when i that come to my space to do work and we talk a lot about just showing up and to kind of face this stuff can feel so lonely and we really risk a is also super rewarding um but i don't i don't want to miss the fact scary to leave behind what we knew um you know what our identities were figure out you know who am i and what do i want to be what's important to is legit so yeah i think that's just want to maybe echo what you said yeah keep i think keep healing you know don't give up keep searching um religious trauma i think is just going to blow up like it's just like people are gonna yeah people are gonna realize that they're not alone and i think um i think we're just kind of touching the tip of the yeah well i mean yeah and if there's more people like you in this world be on the right path to eradicating the radical religious trauma that is of this world there's radical religion in all of history right and just happen to be the colonial history of racism and sexism and so not only is it scary to like you know exhume our own trauma but that the entire world and i think facing like looking at our the christian it can be super scary when you really do sort of break down and deconstruct world and how it's been in our history it's pretty ridiculous and i part in my life with deconstruction is realizing that there's my life there's been so much other life before us because of this same like generationally cursed and handed down or if you will like generational so it runs really really deep in history too um zachary has a question guests go ahead zach do it do it big i will um so i normally i'm changing the more we do it to make it more direct but um i normally ask about stuck in the faith and everything but more directed towards the the starting to deconstruct or maybe like even just a little bit before are religion in the faith um is there any advice that would come to your to think that we you wish maybe you were told or you you heard or something piece of advice for someone in that stage i think the the thing that came just keep searching um just keep questioning just keep asking like i think we'll get there or or this person who's you know starting out little by little by little you can't do it all at once maybe nathaniel can intense yeah some of us right some of us sure not all of us but yeah maybe taking steps and i think the next like the next little thing will open next window the next light you know it just kind of keeps showing itself at least that's you know my experience was it just kind of kept that's my thoughts in this moment i love that yeah yeah just keep i think we're gonna we have to like make a little like poetry book of i that we've asked that question to everybody and everyone has such a heartfelt answer and i would love if we just had a book that every single piece of advice to flip the page that one piece yeah because i think what keep searching or just keep questioning is kind of what forest curious and julie was saying like you are good telling those people like that place it's like just remember that you are good especially coming told you're inherently bad yes it's so hard to think clearly if you're all the time for thinking that way right there's so many mental blocks thank you so much for doing this i know you're so busy and i know that and we had to push this podcast back a week so i'm so happy we were able um and you with all you've been through in your past marriage and you the church and the trauma you've been through i just really want to commend our cast i know that we are perceived as two bros but we really try to for anybody and everyone to feel safe enough to do what you just did so our space here and um yeah just very thankful for you for doing this and i some point we really are wanting to bring back our first handful of people that work in the field of therapy and have like a focus in um we do different parts of our podcast that aren't about just your your word or your advice being included on a topic that we're we'd love to have you back someday if you'd be interested in so awesome yeah you guys have been great i appreciate the opportunity and look forward to what you guys bring in the future i'm excited well for we'll see we'll see we'll see what happens so much growth i feel like the algorithm doesn't like the topic we talk about so well we'll have to just keep sharing that's it that's yeah keep yes that's right comment that's right comment yeah like like share follow if you're watching this right now go ahead and like this video and put a tell us what you're thinking about this interview or don't or don't if hyper evangelical white males please stop please stop commenting please if isn't an evangelical christianity please share your comments because we is evangelical will share their comments yes all right folks i think zachary no no thank you so much for coming on hidey um really appreciate for you and everything you're doing so thank you again and um everyone for watching and listening to the moral combat podcast um we'll see you next time bye