Stacie Benedict, Deconstructing Christianity, Family, & Social Awakening | Ep 75 | Moral Combat

In episode 75 of the Moral Combat Podcast, Stacey shares her journey from a sporadically religious upbringing to a deep involvement in evangelical Christianity, and eventually to deconstructing her faith. Stacey's early experiences included accepting Jesus at age six without fully understanding it and feeling pressured by her mother to make "good choices." In middle school, she found a sense of belonging in a small Church of God congregation but also felt the burden of being the "good Christian girl." College life intensified these pressures with purity culture teachings and conservative doctrines. Despite international mission trips and a long-distance relationship with her now-husband Forrest, Stacey struggled with the colonialist aspects of evangelism and the oppressive expectations placed on women. After returning to the US and marrying Forrest, Stacey began questioning her faith, spurred by political events and the church's stance on LGBTQ+ issues. Her healing journey has included therapy, plant medicine, and EMDR, leading her to reclaim her voice and identity. Stacey advises listeners to trust their inner voice, embrace the hard work of self-discovery, and live authentically.

Stacie Benedict: https://www.instagram.com/staciebenedict76/

Moral Combat, hosted by siblings Nathan and Zach Blaustone, is a heartfelt exploration of life's complexities, with a primary focus on healing from religious trauma. Step into their world as they navigate the realms of music production, confront the lingering echoes of religious trauma, and embrace laughter as a universal healer. With each episode, Nathan and Zach weave together their unique perspectives, seasoned with dynamic personalities that make every discussion an engaging adventure. From unraveling the complexities of personal growth to fostering open communication, healing the scars of religious indoctrination, and embracing the unfiltered authenticity of siblinghood, Moral Combat is your passport to thought-provoking conversations, heartfelt insights, and the pure joy of shared moments. Join us in the combat for morality, one conversation at a time.

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Transcript

0:00

Well, hello there, moral combat fans, MCPFs, comrades, I don't like the term comrades. No, that sounds very military. How do we feel about the military these days? Bad. Poorly. Yes. Yes. How's everyone doing? How's everyone feeling? We have a very exciting podcast for y'all today. Yes, and we love asking how everyone's feeling because we know you can't necessarily respond to us, which makes it safer for us to ask that question. Yeah. Yeah, we don't have to take on the burdens of you having a shitty day, but assuming you're having a great day, thanks for joining us on the Moral Combat Podcast. Yes. Where we love to talk about... Religious trauma. Religious trauma, yes. And Zachary, why in the heck do we talk about religious... Why in the heck? Why in the heck? Do we talk about... Why in the heckity heck? To keep it edited here. Well, we talk about religious trauma because we were raised in the Calvary Chapel, evangelical faith as pastors' kids, and with a father that is still a pastor, and we have suffered quite a bit of trauma from the religion. Yeah. Would you say we're still suffering from... Definitely not. We are healing. We are healing. We are healing. But there's no end to this road of recovery for every human being on the planet, and animal, and plant, and anything that's a species. Yes. And even rocks have to go through immense suffering. Yes. Sit there, just cook in the sun. But then you get bigger over time and then break apart. Anyways, I'm getting distracted. Here in the Moral Combat Podcast, we have sort of... Me and Zachary as brothers have been talking about our own personal trauma to the Calvary Chapel, the non-denominational church that we were raised in. So denominational. Like you said, who our father is still a pastor, I think going almost 30 years, if not more. I mean, if you include his youth pastor days, yes. Sure. Yeah. But we do not believe in that anymore, or we do not claim to be religious Christians in heaven for a long time. We've been talking about the repercussions of doing that, right? When you leave a cult, when you leave a certain radical religious family or group, there's gonna be some issues that come up, like complex, complex post-traumatic stress disorder, anxiety, depression, addiction, you name it. So here in the podcast, we've been so delighted to start interviewing some wonderful people, because it's not just us that suffer from this. There's millions and millions, maybe even billions on this planet of humanity. Yeah. Where religion is rampant, and we are not here to speak evil on religion, just more specifically on the radicalism. The radicalism around religion is scary as fuck. And so we've been so blessed and thankful and happy and so much gratitude to have, once again, another amazing guest with us today. A guest that none of you know, because they haven't been on our podcast before. But we know somebody related to them, but we'll get into that later. Yeah. Indeed. Indeed. Indeed. Let's jump into it. Let's jump straight into it. Today, we are so delighted to have with us the wonderful, the amazing, the sweethearted, the dedicated, hardworking, motivated individual, Stacey Benedict. Wow. Thank you for the intro. Hi, Stacey. Yes, you're welcome for that intro. Hi. How are you doing? I'm great. Now I feel even better. Like all those kind words really boost my confidence. Thanks. Yeah, well, it's coming from a place of honesty. And the little bit that you and I have gotten to know each other over our pre-interview talk like weeks ago now, and then through texting and stuff, all of that's very true. And plus, if you're going to be on our podcast, you've got to have some sort of, you know, motivation in life to make it to this point. Yeah, thanks for being here. Happy Sunday, which originally was church day. And so, welcome to church. Yep. I love my Sundays now. Yeah. Isn't that interesting how once you leave the faith, you get your Sundays back? And it's like, you can do anything on a Sunday. They're magical. These are actually my sleep-in days. My husband, Forrest, we trade sleep-in days. So I get Sunday until noon, and I have no obligations or responsibilities. And I love it. Congratulations. I cherish my Sundays now. Totally. Yeah. I imagine as a mother of two, the life you have, you probably do have responsibilities, but they're not religious responsibilities, right? Oh, no, no, no. Absolutely not. No. And you said you mentioned your husband's name, which sounded familiar. Yeah, sounded so familiar. And he's not the focus of this podcast, but he was on two of our episodes, and that was the infamous Forrest Benedict. That was correct, yeah. It was wonderful. And I know that after interviewing him and getting really close and getting to know Forrest really well, you came up in discussion a little bit. And I was like, the first interview with him, through our same setup, I was like, hey, what are the chances that your wife would want to come on? Yeah, I saw that. Yeah. And so if you're watching this right now... And my initial response was, yeah. Yeah, I know. And that was probably three months ago now, or four months. It's been a while. It's been a minute, yeah. Yeah. When did you... How did Christianity become a part of your life? Were you raised in it? Were you born in it? What was the beginning steps of you being embedded into this group? Enmeshed, yes. Yeah, no, those are great questions. So I did not grow up under the Calvary Chapel umbrella or within the Calvary Chapel family. My beginnings were, my family went to church when we were young. I would say my family, my parents were nominal Christians at best. We did the Sunday church thing and then kind of lived their life how they wanted to the rest of the week, but also wanting to put up certain appearances to make it seem like we were a good Christian family. So we went to... I grew up in a small town in Northern California. We went to a small church there. I accepted Jesus into my heart when I was about six. And honestly, it was like a Sunday school thing. Flanagraph, I don't know. Flanagraph was around when you guys... I'm a little bit older, but... Flanagraph. Doing the Flanagraph. Yeah, what is that? Like the flannel. Oh God. So those are my generation. It was like, it's a board and then they would tell the story of Jesus or like the Bible stories, but it was like flannel. And then they had the little two-dimensional characters that they would throw up there. Interesting. Like the felt, like a felt ruler, right? It was kind of like the felt. Yes. Oh, so more triggers. Yes. So yeah, I just remember, I think, feeling as a child pressured, convicted, those terms I wanted to be in heaven with Jesus someday and God. And so I asked Jesus into my heart when I was little. And then shortly thereafter, actually, my parents left that church. And so we stopped going to church for years. But I had this kind of sense in my heart, like, you know, I've given my life to Jesus and felt like I wanted to be living for Him or making good choices. And here I am, a little child, and I have no idea what decision I made, what was taught to me. I don't really fully understand that. And I think, too, as churches, when we teach children, indoctrinate them, I will use that term at such a young age, and we're telling them these stories of heaven and hell and like, asking Jesus into our hearts. Like, it's really detrimental, ultimately, and dangerous. And we put these stories and these ideas in children's minds to make them think that they need to, that they're sinful. You know, so thinking as a child, I was sinful and was bad and needed to repent and ask Jesus into my life and give my life to God. Like, I didn't know what the hell I was doing, but I was like, Yes, I want to do that. That sounds like a good idea. You know, and then my family left church. And so I was just kind of like, we spent the next several years kind of floating around, not really anywhere. And yet, specifically, I would say my mother was always very like, wanting to keep up appearances. So reading, you know, having the Bible at home, wanting to read the Bible, wanting to make sure that we were living according to the Bible and, you know, making good choices and things like that. So I always had this, a lot of like, fear and guilt and shame and wanting to make sure that I was doing the right thing growing up, even though I wasn't getting it from my parents. We weren't getting it from any church community, but felt a lot of this pressure from mostly my mom about living the right Christian life, even though I didn't really know what that looked like at the time. So in middle school, I ended up at a small, very small, I think the denomination was like Church of God, or something like that. It was teeny tiny. I mean, I grew up in a town of like 12,000 people. So I mean, I ended up at this church, it was predominantly older folks, only sang hymns. And we basically, I came in with my friends one Sunday, and we like doubled the youth at the church that weekend. I mean, there was like no young people. And yet I felt like, oh, I felt like I had come home or something like, this is where I missed being in this religious community, in this Christian community, like hearing about God again. I felt like this is where I needed to be. And so I asked my parents to come back to church with me. I actually brought them back to church with me. And so then they started going to church again, at my request. And so then we ended up at this small church for like, probably middle school all the way until I graduated high school, and into college. So I would come back and visit. And they got plugged in there. There was a youth group, I don't know that you'd really call it a youth group, but it was a bunch of young, the youth that were at the church, there was like four of us maybe. I ended up totally getting, like, I loved hymns, like for years, I felt like they were like, so sacred and like spiritual, you know, singing hymns, and we didn't really have instruments. But yet somehow I felt at home at this place. And the old people loved that there were young kids there. They loved that we were there wanting to like, learn about God. And, you know, the pastor was like, so excited to have young people in the church and young families. So, and I think a side of that too, is I am the oldest of three. And so I am a very typical, stereotypical oldest child. So even at a young age, like knowing growing up, like I felt the responsibility to grow in my faith in God and to learn about God and wanting to be a good Christian, and wanting to be responsible and wanting to, you know, be the good Christian, that girl that my parents wanted me and expected me to be, that the church wanted and expected me to be. And so I carried that and felt that very strongly, just, I think just as an oldest, and that that was put on me at a young age, even, just kind of the expectations of how I was supposed to be, how I was supposed to live, what I was supposed to do, not do, that kind of thing. So that was my church home up until I left for college, really. Wow. Yeah, like, I'm already making so many connections then from your childhood, because like, in my and Zach's experience, right, it was like, there was no memory of having parents that didn't do anything, but like, give their entire being top to bottom to church, not just going to church, but being in the ministry and being leaders in it, right? It was like, everything was like, we're not just going to go to church on a Sunday, we're going to be involved in any possible way, whereas you, you're the kid who was like, parents, it's almost like that what you were saying about, tell me if I'm hearing you right, that like, as far back as you can remember, the image that your mom had as wanting to be a perfect Christian without actually like, by being that jumped into it was like, that image as the oldest was like, you ended up being the perfect image, and being like, hey, the most perfect Christian would be the one that would bring my parents back. So you were, yeah, you were like, perfect. Yeah, there was a lot of that. And it ended up affecting me just throughout my whole life, just that idea of needing to live up to some expectation, unspoken, well, no, it was spoken expectation, but unspoken, invisible expectations that were placed on me by my family, you know, the church, you know, of what was, what a good Christian woman, young woman, girl looked like was supposed to be. And I internalized that and tried to embody that and live that out. And it was difficult. It caused me a lot of like, anxiety and stress and fear of like, I wasn't doing it right. I didn't pray right. I didn't read my Bible right. I wasn't going to church enough. I wasn't hanging around with the right people. I, you know, wasn't saying the right thing. I didn't say the sinner's prayer right. I probably like accepted Jesus so many times throughout my childhood, too. Like accepted, like rededicated my life so many times, because I felt like anytime like, I had a bad thought or was like, did something wrong, disobeyed my parents, whatever, I felt this like immense guilt and responsibility to like, repent and, you know, like rededicate, say the sinner's prayer again, because what, you know, what would happen if I died or whatever, like, I want to make sure I'm going to heaven. And, you know, like, I want to make sure that I did it right. I mean, it was just ludicrous. Like, one, as a child, like to even have to think about those things, you know, to like bear that weight mentally. And eventually, like physically, it affects, you know, it affected me physically, emotionally, to have to grow up with that in your, as your mindset, you know, thinking that this is how I need to live to be a good Christian and feeling this weight and this responsibility on my shoulders, in my body. Yeah. Yeah. And you could never be good enough. That's the thing. No. If you, you could keep trying to be the perfect Christian, make the right prayers, do the right thing. But the next day, you're going to find your faults and keep praying harder, keep re-giving your life to Christ. Yes. An endless cycle of shame. Yeah, it's an endless vicious cycle of shame. Exactly. And it's, and it's fucking, it's impossible to like maintain that, you know. Because kids are kids. Like, you know, we're humans. Like life happens. We make mistakes. Like shit happens. And yet, you know, there's this just indoctrination like fed to us that you constantly, you just have to be better or do better, think better, act better, you know? And it's exhausting. It's like normalizing. That's why it's so abusive, right? It's like for kids, it becomes normalized to not ever be good enough to deny yourself to need like this, it almost feels good, overarching masculine force of nature called God or Jesus, right? That's just like the only answer to all of what you need to be better. And so like the lack of self and everything you're saying, it's like becomes normalized. And so weren't you the one saying, because we've had a handful of guests that have related to what you just said about every time like a pastor would offer you to give your life to Christ, they would be like- It was Julia. It was Julia, right? Yeah. Didn't you say that you do that too, though, or not you? I don't know. I was just consistently in my head praying and asking. I was consistently asking for forgiveness, like on a minute to minute basis. But then, yeah, every time there was an altar call, I would feel like at least in myself, I'd have to be like, I need to ask Jesus into my heart again, because I have obviously sinned too much in my thoughts. Yes, yes. Yeah, that's traumatic. It's traumatic to have to give your life to Christ millions of times to keep facilitating. You know, that says a lot. So Stacey, you said that you were in church come towards college, end of college. When did you cross over into Calvary Chapel? Did you ever cross over into Calvary Chapel? Was that part of it? So I never crossed over into Calvary Chapel. I actually never really knew about Calvary Chapel until I met Forrest. So that was like many years later. I actually, when I went to college, so I went to a Christian college up in Northern California in the 90s. So very much part of the purity culture, like a certain book came out my freshman year of college that transformed the way that a lot of guys and people thought about dating. And so that pretty much messed up any – Do you remember the name of it? Oh, yeah, I Kissed Dating Goodbye came out my freshman year. Just to tell you, like that was the time that I lived. So I was in college during that time. Purity culture was super popular, going strong. Yeah. And that book came out and it like was nuts. I mean, guys especially glommed onto it. We're reading it like crazy. And it fucked with so many, so many people, so many like young women, like myself even, too, like who would never, I think, be able to live up to these certain standards, you know? And during that time, I ended up getting involved in Assemblies of God Church. So a very, like, well-known Assemblies of God Church. And yeah, so I mean, I went from small town, teeny tiny, hymns only, like church of like 50 to this mega church in the city where I was going to college. And it was like, like my mind was blown. I got introduced to all kinds of things. And it was at that time, like I had moved away from home. You know, partly me, I think, moving towards getting my freedom was choosing a college that was further away. So I left my small hometown. That was part of me. Looking back now, I think like I was so proud of myself, like that younger version, because I, all of my family still lives in that town. Everyone is still connected. Nobody ever leaves. And I was like, and I knew even then, like, I need to get the fuck out of here. And if I don't, like, it's not going to end well. So I knew even at 18, like I needed to go away and I needed something for me. It was a Christian college, but still it was like that step of like, I need some independence. I need freedom. I need to discover myself, like who I am. Mostly at that time it was, I need to figure out who I am in the Lord. And I need to like have this, you know, like I need to form my own community and my own identity away from my town, away from my family. And so that for me was a really big important step. Like in my faith journey at the time, I was far enough away from home. So I felt like I had independence, but I could still drive home on the weekends to do laundry, to get a home cooked meal, things like that. So I felt like I had enough space, you know, to kind of create my own life. And it was like, it was a mind-blowing time at college. And even just connecting with this church, like I experienced things that I had never experienced before in the Christian world, like speaking in tongues, being slain in the Spirit, like very Pentecostal, you know, like happenings. And honestly, I was like intrigued. I was enthralled by it. I was fascinated by this kind of mystical, magical piece, you know, to this church and got really connected and involved in it and ended up volunteering, getting super involved, like friends who were pastors on staff there and just really trying to like, feeling like, oh, this is it, like finding my place within this kind of more charismatic, being able to be free and open and express yourself kind of community. And so I really embraced that a lot. During my whole time when I was at college, I was really involved, like in this church community. And also, I was learning about what it was like to be more, I think, having more messages of during my time at college as a young woman, trying to come into myself, figuring out who I am as a Christian, but also as a young woman, but being fed these messages, again, especially during the 90s pretty culture. This college was very conservative, very much like it's your responsibility as a woman to monitor your thoughts, your actions, your body, how you dress, what you say, because you don't want to make your brothers stumble. And you don't want to cause somebody else to sin by your behavior. So our clothing was monitored, our actions were monitored, who we could and couldn't hang out with and where was heavily monitored. And obviously, I look back at that now and I was like, oh, my God, how did I survive and function in this? But I was going through so much of my own, so much turmoil internally, too, trying to figure out, I want to live for God and I want to be this good Christian young woman. And also, man, I'm like, some of this stuff, I'm really struggling with this. You're telling me as a woman, I'm responsible for this person's thoughts or actions because of if I have spaghetti strap tank top on or my shorts are too short. And so there was a lot of just struggle for me growing up or just being at college and trying to figure out who I was in my identity as a Christian and also trying to figure out just who I was as a young woman. I want to do this, but this doesn't sit right with me. I'm not agreeing with this. Women couldn't be in leadership, women couldn't do this, we couldn't say this or do this. It was very restrictive and oppressive. And yet, in a lot of ways, I was like, oh, I'm finding myself. This is who I am and this is who I want to be. And it was also a big Christian missionary. Missions was big in this college that I went to. And so learning that I had a love for travel and wanting to connect with people and the world and so I had all of this going on to like, oh, I want to do all these things. But it's all within the context of conservative Christianity. You know, so it was a lot during that time, just with the purity culture and the messaging, the messages that were being fed to us as young women. One of the popular statements when I was there was a ring by spring or your money back. I mean, that was kind of like the goal of a lot of young women was to go to find their husband. Like, you know, a lot of people came in and left engaged, married. I mean, like 21, 22. So that was the one that was what I said that that was the way. That's the way it's supposed to be. They train it that way. Yeah. Yeah. So that was and it was kind of like joked about. But honestly, like it was if somebody were to get engaged, like everyone would be really excited for them, you know, especially as a young woman. If you could find a husband, find a mate, you know, if you could be a helpmate, you know, by the time you graduate from college, like you've made it basically like you've arrived as this Christian woman. Sorry. And again, like I struggle with that. Did you call it a helpmate? Helpmate. If you could be your helpmate. Helpmate. Helpmate. Helpmate. Helpmate. But the man isn't considered the helpmate, right? Or were they considered or was that like a... No, you were their helpmate, kind of like their partner, like to come along to help them. Is that not a term you guys heard? Probably. It's from a past generation. Helpmate. No, I love that. But I also feel like that's probably maybe that was something that was also like, umbrella'd for like women in these church, you know, or these Christian colleges was like, because that's like what we've heard from a lot of other women is that you're here to help a man in his ministry. Yeah. Right. That's your responsibility. You know, whereas the man is supposed to be the one leading the ministry and so it's like, yeah, crazy. Exactly. There's not much opportunity for women besides have babies and take care of the house and make sure everything's good and keep the man happy and don't stumble any other men because it's on you. Right, along the way. They don't have a choice. They can't control themselves. Yeah, you guys can't control yourselves. No, we're men. It's all on us. Yeah, no. Exactly. And as, you know, the term Zach's always used when a pastor told him was that men are just horny mice. Horny mice. Horny mice. Okay. Yeah, but no, so everything that you're saying right now, it sounds like college was a lot of things for you. I'm hearing like identity crisis at times, right? Like, yeah, yeah, I think it's so interesting. Like, it's so amazing leaving space right where your parents are to develop, to have like, sort of independence. And so that's what you did. You were like, I'm getting out of this town. I'm like, become my own person. And yet you're like, and so it's like, you're like feeling that independence, which is great. But at the same time, it's being crafted for this, like, perfect, sexist, you know, and so I'm hearing that a lot, like as a woman. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Highly misogynistic, patriarchal, like, yes, forming your identity, but not really your own identity in Christ. So I mean, it's all about like, denying yourself, you know, like losing your, who you are, and figuring out who Christ wants you to be. It's about what is your purpose in Christ. And so it really becomes about, not about you, it's about God. Not really what you want, ultimately, but what does God want for your life? So like, I know for me, that's how, when I struggled with like, well, what if I don't want to like, get married? You know, I don't, none of these guys, I'm really feeling it. Like, what if I don't want to date, you know, right now in college? What if I don't want to ring by spring? Like, am I defective somehow? Like, what if I want to travel? What if I want to have a career? What if I want to build my own life and do my own things? Like, what does that say, you know, about me as a woman, as a Christian woman? And so feeling like, what is it that God wants for me? What should I want? So learning how to basically like, stuff, like who I am as a person, losing my identity as an individual, and learning how to form this religious identity around really like, what does God want? What does God want for my life? What is my purpose? Even if that isn't necessarily like, what I want, because I want to do what God wants me to do, you know? I want to go where God wants me to go. I want to live how God wants me to live. So if that means I have to deny these other things and forego these other things, well, then I guess that's really like, my purpose in life is to, well, like I've heard you say before, Nathan, like, take up my cross and follow him, you know? Like, it's all about like, denying ourselves and becoming who God wants us to be. And so when we do that, when I did that, like, I lost myself. Like, we lose ourselves in that process. And then years later, when we are, we leave it and we deconstruct and we're like, and then we ask the questions like, who am I now? Who am I now? Like, what do I want? And so it's difficult when you're fed messages and you're told all these things, especially as a woman and as a Christian woman from society, that this is your place, this is your responsibility, this is like, who you should be, this is what you should do, and you just take that all in and then you stuff down, you know, who you are and like, the beautiful human that you are, that you were born into, and then you lose that and then you forget like, what you wanted and who you were in life. Because your goal is to serve this invisible deity in the sky and to serve the patriarchy and to do the bidding of God, your husband, you know, the church, whatever. And it's, yeah, it's a lot. It sounds like they got you perfectly all the way through college, right? And so then, did you get married in college? Like, what happened? Did you go travel? I mean, what did you do with your life then? Well, at that point, so I graduated college, I got my teaching degree because at one point people were like, hey, you'd make a great teacher. And I was like, and I knew I didn't want to go into like, church ministry. And I was like, yeah, I can be a teacher. Like, I love kids. I've worked with kids forever. And I was like, yeah, that's the path I'll take. Like, I'll just be a teacher. You know, there weren't really a whole lot of options at the time. I feel like when I was in college, so I felt like I can be an educator. And also too, like, I was still being fed that message from home. Like, my responsibility to actually my dad was really strongly communicated to me a lot of have a career, be able to take care of yourself. So he had kind of a different message of like, be able to stand like on your own two feet, be able to have a career that you can like, make money at, don't rely on a guy, you know, and I had two younger siblings who were not like in the faith. So I was always like, held to a higher standard. And I was always, I would say, placed on a pedestal, not of my choosing. But I was always very much looked at like, I was the only one who went to college and my family and got a degree. So I was the first to do that. And, you know, I was living the godly life. I went to a Christian college, like, I was serving the Lord. So I was very much looked at very highly from my parents. And so whatever I did, as long as I was doing something for God, I was like, you know, like, I could do no wrong, you know, in their eyes. And that was really difficult, because it really put a strain on my relationship at the time with my younger siblings. And looking back now, like, I realized, like, I was really the one in the wrong. I was trying to convert them and tell them about God and Jesus. And, you know, they needed to give their lives to Christ and blah, blah, blah. But it was really, it was on me, you know, they were just living their lives and being humans. And, you know, and I was trying to be somebody that I was told I needed to be to try to convert and change them. But I graduated college, and I did not get married, because I didn't have really any interest in becoming a wife at 22. So I got my teaching credential, and I ended up getting a job in Central Valley. I moved down to Fresno, California, and ended up living, moving down there with a girlfriend. We both took teaching jobs. She was in the middle school. I was in elementary school. I worked in a migrant community. I taught fifth grade, and I loved it. Like, I was doing something that I love to do. I was independent. I was living my life and enjoying being single and then connected. I got connected with a singles group in my church that I found there and got really plugged in with the singles group there. So I found kind of throughout that I always have tended to be kind of more like outspoken and independent and more kind of tended towards like leadership roles. But the messaging I always got as I was growing up through college was like, you need to like really tone it down and like not, you know, you don't want to speak up too much or say too much because it's like I was told a lot that I was really intimidating to a lot of guys. So I think that may also have affected like my dating ability because I was like outspoken and I like wasn't just like submissive. You weren't submissive. Yeah, I wasn't just there to like be a wife to some guy, you know, like I wanted to travel and have adventures. So I went through and most of my friends, like I went through a period where I swear like everyone was getting engaged. So many weddings, so many engagements. I went through like four different roommates in a period of like a year because everyone was getting engaged and then they get married and moved out. And so I was like the consistent like single friends who just, you know, was doing my thing and everyone was getting married off. And yeah, I was teaching and connected with the singles group and, you know, had done a lot of traveling. That was one thing I did appreciate out of being at college. Although I know, Nathan, you and I talked about this. A lot of it is I travel a lot for missions work, which I have very strong feelings about now is like the colonialism, the going in and having to be the white savior to these countries and these children in these communities. Like we're going to go in and like tell people about Jesus and save them and then we're going to leave and that, you know, like and look at what we did for God. And so I struggle with that a lot because I did a lot of traveling and I did a lot of international missions work. And I would say even when I was there, like in those communities, I still always had this kind of low line, this feeling of like I'm doing this and I'm loving being here and I'm loving connecting with these people. Like I love that aspect of just like going in and connecting with people. But the idea of going in and then telling people about Jesus, like you're sinners and you need Jesus and here we are to help you and tell you the right way. That was really difficult for me. Like I struggled with that a lot. Even back when you were doing it? Yeah, even when we were going and I was doing it, there was kind of this idea of like this feels something doesn't feel good about this. I'm enjoying being here and having these experiences, but I feel really weird. Something feels really uncomfortable about telling you this person that you are a sinner because you believe differently than me or you're in another country and you need Jesus. And now I'm going to come in and I'm going to like help you and then I'm going to leave. Um, just the whole idea of it just felt just wrong. And so I have very strong feelings about it now. Like I just think and asking people for money, like to help you go and travel and to serve God in these other countries. And it's just, uh, it's a terrible, it's a terrible thing. So I think people who go and do missions work now in the name of God, like it's just, um, it's not right. And so I regret a lot of that piece of it because I was going and I was contributing to that, you know, knowing that I contributed to that, like, um, this is hard for me. Yeah, that's, which is like, this is the part of the consequences of healing and growing and deconstructing this shit is having to sit in how we were culpable, right? But that's why ignorance is bliss and deadly. Ignorance is blissful and deadly. It's like, you know, like it's, um, but yeah, I think that that's like an interesting connection. We've interviewed a lot of people in our podcast, missionaries, non-missionaries. And I think you use the term, that's like the hot, hot term, which is colonialism. And I think that like missionaries going to different countries, especially like poor, right? We were always sent out to the poor places. And so the cliche was like, oh, I'm helping building homes, you know, for people. And people always be like, sure. And the assumption is that the poor, the poor don't know Jesus. Yeah. You got to go share. You got to go share Christ because the poor can't know Jesus. Only us colonized people know the good, good news. Yeah. And I, um, yeah, I totally relate with looking back. I was a lot younger on these mission trips, right? Just kind of in the shadow of our parents. And so, um, but since we've, I guess forever, I mean, some of the plays we did in Mexico, the things that we were doing, like, it was just like, my God, it's like, it's like a, it's like a, uh, it's like a really bad, scary TV show. Yeah. It's like, this is, it'd be like a following documentary where you're like, I can't believe these kids are doing this. Why are they wearing those masks? Yeah. Why are they, they're not even speaking the right language. What are they doing? Yeah, no, totally weird. Yeah. Oh my God. Living in, living in a fog. But, um, but this is a safe, such a safe space. So I totally relate and know that feeling. Um, but that's like, you know, like just you kind of saying that is how we're kind of like moving into that other side, which is like the consequences of deconstructing. Right. And so, um, which we're, we're getting, we're, we're getting there because your whole stories, I love how when, as you're sharing your story, you're kind of filling us in on the real personal, vulnerable experiences that you were having as a woman going through these experiences. Right. And one of the things that I just want to loop back at that I think is really kind of like triggered me or brought something up was that you as a woman being this outspoken, independent, right? Like I'm not going to get married at a young age. I'm not going to, all these guys aren't cutting it. So then you had other men like leaders or like older men, I'm assuming that were the ones kind of telling you like, Hey, you should probably tone it down. Don't speak up as much, which is like the picture of what I was saying in the beginning, you have like femininity, you have like this divine femininity, and then you have this toxic masculinity. And so your, your experience was like embracing your divine femininity, which is like empowering, which is like speaking up, which is standing up for yourself, which you didn't even fully know, like what that was at the time. And then you have these men that are older, who are like scared shitless of an independent, strong, motivated woman. And so what they're doing is like silencing your voice and being like, that's just not the right thing for a godly woman. And that in and of itself, they probably said it just that's not the right thing for a godly woman. That's how I see them, right? Like, I don't know. It's I'm not implying anything. I just think that like, yes, like there's scared shitless to be around like men. Toxic masculinity is so scared to be around powerful women. Powerful women. Yeah. 100%. It's their biggest nightmare. And so the reaction is to silence that voice. And that is. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Horrific. Absolutely. Yeah. Putting women in their place, like this is where your place is. This is where you can contribute and you know how you can be. Don't step outside of that. And when you hear that message for so long, even when you wrestle with it and you're like, this doesn't feel good or feel right. You know, it's kind of overpowered by that part of, yeah, but they're like the godly leader. Like I want to I'm trying to live for God and do the right thing and be a godly woman. And so even though I think what you're saying is bullshit, like deep down, I'm like, but if I say anything or act against that, like, you know, then I'm out of line, you know, with God's will. You're missing the mark. You're being an absolute sinner. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A heathen. Yeah, exactly. And I mean, in the church that I was in, I mean, this was I struggled with this so much is women were not allowed to be like up on stage teaching or praying or preaching or anything like because that was that was the man's like role. So I don't know how it is at Calvary Chapel, but that's pretty cool. I have memories of going to churches that did have women that were allowed to preach and thinking that they were sitting in the worst way they possibly could. But then also knowing like it deep down inside being like, that doesn't feel right. Why wouldn't a woman be able to be on stage? That was always something I battled with a lot is the the women can't be pastors. Women can't have any authority. Well, I mean, you could as a woman, you were allowed to teach the kids, which all the only woman to care. Like, it's just the stereotypes and the gender roles that, like, majority of these radical Christian churches did was kind of like, men don't talk with the kids. You know, it's the women deal with the kids. And that's so as a as a young boy growing up, it was like so ingrained in me that women took care of the kids and the men's were the ones that took care of the adults. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And the women could the women that were taking care of the kids could have like a baby camera on the man that was teaching the rest so they could like peep in, you know, like, I got a little bit of the study. I learned a little bit. But luckily, I just taught these little kids. It's so demeaning. So demeaning. And I remember we would go me and my parents would go and do worship for churches, other churches, and other denominations. And which has its own fair share of trauma. But like, I remember like going to a certain church in our area that was a pastor was the woman pastor. And the way it was presented to me was like, they're wonderful here, but just they're different. Okay. They do things differently. So the way that I perceived it was like, oh, this pastor is wonderful, but they're doing things different. Yeah. And so that's what like twisted me so much was that it wasn't that these were bad ways of doing it. It just wasn't the right perfect way. Yeah. So you get a little bit of judgment. Yeah. You can put a little bit of judgment. What you're wearing, this is distracting me from the ways of God. I'm going to pray with my eyes closed. It's a little different. Yeah, just a little bit different. So then when did deconstruction happen? How old were you? When did you meet Forrest, I guess? Or when did this, the next path of your life, when did you get married? Sure. So I did keep moving away. And after I taught fifth grade for a few years, I ended up moving to South Africa. So I ended up moving to Johannesburg. And that honestly was where I felt like I was going to be forever. I saw myself there indefinitely. I was going to go and live and volunteer at this, well, it was a church that also ran a baby's home. So I had visited there the summer before. I went with a friend and we spent a summer in South Africa visiting different places. So I'd already been there. I felt really connected, knew I wanted to move there. So I spent a year just planning and preparing to leave and to move and to go to South Africa indefinitely. And that was kind of like my plan, my vision, my future. That's what I wanted for myself. And in the meantime, I ended up feeling like I was, gosh, how old was I? Mid-20s. I think 26, maybe, because I met Forrest right around my 27th birthday. So I was later in my 20s. I'd been living my life, being independent, having my career, doing my thing, enjoying my life. I had plans. And then a girlfriend asked me if I would try out this new dating app called eHarmony at the time. Boom. Yeah. And so I was like, oh, fine. She was very much wanting to meet a guy. And I was kind of more just doing it like, oh, sure, I'll do it. I'll create a profile, whatever. I was kind of halfhearted about it. So I ended up doing this whole thing. And if you know anything about eHarmony at the time, it was very new. It was very Christian. It was very intense. In depth, you had to pay to be a part of this site. They had a whole list of major in-depth questions that you had to go through this whole profile. You had to create a whole profile page. Then they send you out into the universe, and then they send matches your way. And so I went through a couple of different matches. And then it was right before my 27th birthday, I think, I actually matched with Forrest. And he came through this good-looking guy. I saw his picture. He had beautiful blue eyes. And I was like, hey, this guy's really cute. And this is also me, too. I was like, hey, this guy's really cute. And I reached out to him, and we kind of had this back and forth. I basically at that time was like, I know what I want. I don't really want to play games, so here's my number. Feel free to call me if you want. I was kind of like, I'm not in it for this whole messing around. I was getting older in the world of Christian terms, man. I was like a spinster at that time. My friends were married for years. They were having children, multiple children. And here I was still single, and I was running out of time. But honestly, though, I was like, hey, this guy seems really cool. And I was like, yeah, let's just connect. And so we ended up connecting. He called our first conversation. I think we talked on the phone for two hours. I was at a girlfriend's house, and we just really connected. And it was at that time, actually, I was already planning on moving to Africa. So I told him right away, I was like, hey, just heads up. I'm actually leaving the country. So I'm moving to Africa, like, cool with that. So yeah, we just basically ended up having a long distance relationship. Because I was in Fresno, and he was in Petaluma at the time. And so we just talked on the phone, texted every day, all day. And our first date, he drove down to Fresno and took me out. And so we just would visit each other on the weekends. And yeah, he just was this really amazing guy, super different. And just knew how to woo me. Yeah, so, yeah. And it was honestly, it was nice, because we both had separate lives. And so I mean, it was exciting. Like, we just had this, like, a lot of our relationship developed, mostly because we just talked a lot, like, we just had a lot of time spent just talking and getting to know each other more deeply, you know, before we actually met in person for the first time. And then I moved to South Africa. And I was living there, living my dream. Like, honestly, that was probably one of, like, the best times of my life. I loved every moment, just getting to be in this community with other people caring for children, learning about other cultures, setting aside. Like, I had to really step into this idea of, like, I don't know anything. Like, I'm this white woman coming into another country, into another culture. I'm caring for other people's, these children. And I need to set aside, like, my ideas of how I think, like, you take care of children, because I don't know anything. I'm here to learn from other people and taking on this posture of, like, as a learner. And it was really beautiful. Like, I made some amazing connections and relationships with people there and met people from all over the world. I got to take care of, like, be a mom to, like, 15 babies, like, for, you know, like, it was a really, like, beautiful time, like, in my life. And I'm super grateful for that. And also at that time, I was then having a really long distance relationship with Forrest, you know, so we were doing, like, the chatting via the computer thing. And then eventually he came over and met me over in South Africa and spent time volunteering with me. And that was, I think, to your point you said earlier where it was, like, a lot of times, like, in the church, it's, like, the women's responsibility to care for the children. And then the men are the ones who, like, teach and lead. But Forrest, like, stepped in. He was, like, the only guy who came and volunteered, got down on the floor with the babies. And so it was really, like, I think, transformational for people to see, like, the locals to see, like, this white guy coming in and, like, being willing to, like, get in there and serve and play and connect and not just be this, like, hands-off, you know, kind of guy. Like, it was really special, you know, I think, for a lot of people just to get, for him to get to have that experience and for other people to witness that. And it definitely, like, solidified a lot of my feelings for him at that time as well. So, yeah, then we got engaged. He proposed in Victoria Falls. I mean, the guy knows how to, like, knows how to do it. It's Forrest. Right. So, yeah. So he, yeah, he proposed at Victoria Falls in Zambia. And then we came home. So you moved back? So I did. And I did move back. So I was there. My plan was indefinitely. Then I met a guy, fell in love, you know, got engaged. So we ended up coming back home together to plan our wedding. So, and I think looking back now, I probably would have wanted to stay longer, you know, for myself. But I felt at the time, like, so like, oh, this is the next step in my, like, journey as a woman. Like, I'm now going to go and I'm going to get married and start my life as a wife now and, you know, that kind of thing. And I think that if I had stayed a little longer, I could have, I would have appreciated, I think, just being able to be there more and have more of that time for me, you know, knowing that we were going to get married and that kind of thing. But we ended up coming home. I moved back into my parents' house. That was a whole thing. Yeah. So, you know, I'm this, we were, I was 29 when we ended up getting, when we got married. So I'm this 29-year-old, like, woman who's been on my own forever having to move back into my parents' house and plan a wedding. He moved back to Petaluma. So we did it again, long distance. And we, yeah, we tried to be this godly Christian couple and do it right. And it's hard. It's hard, you know, when you're older and you've waited so long. I waited a long time. You guys are going to like die of this. I was 27 when I actually had my first kiss. So, and then, yeah. So I didn't kiss anybody until I was 27 because that's how important I felt like, that it was so important for me to like save myself for my future husband. This messaging and this indoctrination was like, I can't like taint my body or like do anything sinful. I mean, it was, I like took that message on hardcore. And so honest, actually, like my, when I first kissed somebody, it was a guy who was, my friends did not approve of because he was not a Christian. And I got so much, I got so much shit for it because it was like how, you know, like everyone was so disappointed. Like this moment that I was so excited about and I'm so happy as a normal fricking adult woman, you know, getting to have this experience. And I'm like, my friends are disappointed because he wasn't a Christian, you know? And it was like, I took that away, like from my future husband. And it was like, I felt guilt about it. You know, like I wanted to be excited about this moment. And yet it was overshadowed by like that I had disappointed my friends, which I'm like, shit, then did I, in turn, like I disappointed God? Like what have I done? You know, like in this moment of like being led by my flesh, you know, like I did this thing and now like I fucked up, you know? Like, and yet looking back now, I'm like, oh my God, like this is the messaging for a lot of us, I think, that grew up in purity culture. And with this messaging as women, deconstructing and coming out of this later in life, like realizing, oh my God, like all these things that we didn't do, that we suppressed, set aside, you know, for the sake of like the higher call of like marriage, you know, God, our future mate, that we're all normal, healthy, sexual feelings, you know, desires, whatever. And yet, like so much guilt and shame about just having like natural, regular, normal experience, you know? Yeah, so you get married to Forrest, I'm assuming you guys had a long marriage, still in the faith for a long period of time. How long was it until you deconstructed? Sure. So we got married in 2005, and gosh, we've been married for almost 20 years. Congratulations. Yeah, thank you. And it's been a journey. And it's only been probably about the last, well, and I say that because like the shit that we've gone through and things, you know, as we've deconstructed and evolved and changed, like super grateful that we're here at almost 20. So it was probably about five years ago, I would say for me personally, that it's not been that long, you know, comparatively to like my life. And then within our marriage, like it's only been within the last five years for me that I have not considered myself a Christian. Yeah. So starting the deconstruction process. And it was, I know for some people, it's kind of like this aha moment or whatever. For me, it was, I think the slow unraveling, you know, it was a lot of things. Like how, how do you at that, right? You guys, you have children as well, right? Yeah. Right. Do you have kids? So you're like raising a family in the church. You guys are like, you know, we know Forrest's story, right? He's like traveling, giving speeches on pornography and he's like a sexual therapist. So you have this husband that's just like a stellar, perfect leader. That's like the cool guy being like, do not masturbate. Don't masturbate. I didn't do it for 17 years. And so then like, how, how did that, what, what was the unraveling? Like, why, why would you do it? I guess. Yeah. Well, I think a lot of it really is just kind of that, those pieces. Like I said, like the, the unsettling in my body, like over the years, just different things that I feel like were coming up for me that never really, that I never fully, I think bought into or believed like the tucked away in the back of my mind. Like, Ooh, this doesn't make sense. And I don't agree with this, but I'm going to like, you know, not dwell on it too much, but a lot of those little things over the years. And then I would say really like for me, the big catalyst was 2016 the presidential election. Like that was a major catalyst, which I know was a big one for a lot of people. I think just kind of that reckoning for a lot of people, like who are just like, what the fuck? And, you know, having these so, and at the time we had to, our boys were young. And I would say, so 2016, I was still at that point I was, so you have the election, then you have, you know, all the stuff that's happening with like racial tensions, you know, within the US and different things happening, shootings and arrestings of unarmeds, like young black boys and black men, both of our boys are black and our oldest, he's 15 now, but at the time, you know, like there was so much happening and it was a big struggle for me because I'm seeing all of this unraveling and all of these things happening. And as a person of faith at the time, I'm thinking, okay, like, we need to be talking about this stuff. And the church we were at at the time, my husband, Forest, okay, I need to keep calling my husband Forest, I don't know who he is, Forest, you know, went to the pastor because I told him, I was like, this is really hard. I'm really wrestling with this and I'm really struggling, like the fact that these things are happening in the world and all of this unrest and racial tensions and like the church isn't talking about it, like we're not talking about it. And so Forest meant to our pastor at the time and the response was kind of like, well, you know, we need to be careful, like we have some police officers within our congregation and basically like this answer of like a non-answer, like basically it's not going to happen because we want to just keep the peace and make sure like we don't ruffle feathers. And I was like pretty much done at that point, you know, I was like, this is ridiculous, you know, and I'm like, these are things that could potentially directly affect my family and other families and even if not, like this is humanity, like we're not going to care about what's happening, you know, to people like in our communities or in other communities, just because it's not directly affecting you, like so we're not going to give a shit because we don't want to like ruffle feathers. And I was kind of like, I stopped going to church around that time. Like I was like not feeling comfortable being in that space anymore. I was like, this feels like super hypocritical and I was having a hard time going and reconciling, like I'm sitting here and people are talking, but it's all like, it just feels like bullshit. Like, you know, we're just giving mouth service and but nothing is like, we're not caring about, actually caring about people and the things that are important happening in the world and things that are affecting, like could affect my family and my friends' families. And then also around that time too, you know, realizing, I think it was 2008, like we had a lot of friends who, you know, friends who had kids and were gay and lesbian and, you know, the church's stance on all of that was like very like specific. And I'm like, these are our friends. Like these are people that we love and we care about. And you're going to tell me that if they don't like stop being in their loving, committed relationship and being parents to their child, like that they're going to burn in hell. And so that's their lifestyle, like they're choosing what they choose, how they choose to live their life and who they choose to love is wrong. And like, I really struggled with that a lot. And I was like, I just, I don't, I don't care, like what people choose to believe or who they choose to love. And yet I'm being told it's being dictated to me by this book, by these white men, these people of like, what's right and what's wrong, what's okay, what's not okay. And I just, I couldn't, I was having a hard time, like really reconciling with all of that. And just couldn't get my mind around like, I cannot be okay with this. Like I'm not okay with this. I'll never be okay with this. And even just the idea of like telling people about Jesus and like feeling like it was my responsibility to tell people like what they should believe, who they should believe. And if they didn't believe that way, then it was like eternal damnation. Like I always really struggle with that because I'm like, this is what my church and what I'm being told I need to do according to the Bible and according to these people. But I don't, I don't really, I don't, I don't agree with that. Like I don't fully deeply like in my deep heart of hearts. Like I don't, I don't believe that. I don't agree with that. And so, and then with 2016, with the election, I like the blinders, you know, like it was this like this awakening, you know, it's just for me, it's been this like awakening of realizing and seeing, especially around that time, people who were part of my community doing life with or church with or whatever, and then seeing who they were choosing to like support politically. And that, and then trying to kind of justify like, oh, it's just politics. Like, you know, separate like church and politics and religion. Like it's not really like, you know, trying to justify like keeping them separate. And it's like, no, like if you're choosing to like support somebody who directly opposes, you know, and is against like, you know, people that are in my life that I love or that I, or my own children, my family, like, how can you, how can you separate those two? Like, how can you say like, it's not the same thing? And so we, we lost a large community. Yeah. Around that time where we just kind of, we came to this place of realizing like, this is, this is not working for us. This is not who we are. This is not who we want to be. And something is like having to change, like something was changing, something was shifting and we knew we needed to make a major shift like in where we went, who we hung out with kind of thing. So, yeah. But you were the one that asked your husband, Forrest, to go talk to the pastor, right? That's what you were saying. You're like, hey, can you, or were you a part of that conversation to go talk to that pastor? I was not. He, he had a friendship, kind of more of a relationship with him. And I, I honestly, at the time didn't feel comfortable like going and having that conversation with him. I felt like Forrest could communicate it maybe better than I could because I maybe wouldn't have been as kind. Totally, yeah. I can tend to get a bit like worked up. So, and I think, I love that. Thanks. So I think, yeah, that it was, I felt comfortable for him to kind of go and knowing that he would ask the right questions and like to support me and how I felt about it in that moment. But I did not feel comfortable like having that conversation. But at this, at this time, were you, because I know we had, we had having Forrest on and hearing his deconstruction and you guys being this couple, right, that have, you know, truly love with one another. Were you the only one in the family like that was kind of feeling this way and pushing this narrative or was it, was he kind of deconstructing on the side or was this just kind of you? No, we were both on, we were both on a journey. He actually was at the time a lot more vocal about kind of where he was at and how he was feeling about things. I was doing a lot more internalizing and processing inside around what I was thinking and feeling and believing about things. Whereas he was a lot more vocal and kind of letting people know, at least within our Christian community, like, hey, I don't think I believe this or I'm exploring this or whatever. He was more outspoken about it, whereas I was processing internally a lot of this. But we were definitely both on the same page as far as like, this is fucked up, like, this is not right. Like, we were definitely, I would say, in alignment, in agreement with, with a lot of those things, like politically, socially, you know, as far as the deconstruction around that. But our journey and how that was playing out looked, looked a lot different. Yeah, because I mean, I know that because Forrest has shared twice now in our podcast, right, about his and I know that he had a lot of like personal, personal, like, reflection on sexual trauma and his experience, like on a personal level, whereas yours is like on this, I don't know, humanitarian level. Like, you know, it was like your, like, the connection that you have, I know that you said that both of your children are black. And so, you know, the astronomic numbers of black men, young black men being shot dead in the street by cops, and you being like, Yo, like, are we gonna be, you know, like, just that alone, right? Having that awareness is like a motherly, it's like a different thing. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, I would say, my, like, passion and like my feelings around it, I'm very much, it's something that I'm regularly learning about. And discovering, like, what's happening in the world as far as like social, racial consciousness awareness, like those kind of things like that is definitely my, like, things that I'm passionate about. And for us, this is definitely open to that. And we have good conversations, I would say I bring more up to the table of like, can you really like, this is what's happening. And so kind of that, like, grant, like larger scope awareness. And like, educating on things and like, learning about that kind of stuff, just because that's, I'm passionate, like, that's really important to me. And he's a willing participant and learner in the process as well. So yeah, it's been a journey and a learning. It's just, yeah, it's been a learning experience and a lot of growth and evolving and stripping away and unlearning of old, like you said, just kind of this narrow scope of how we are taught to believe and think about gender norms. I mean, that's racial norms, you know, norms and things in our society, through this lens of conservative Christianity, Christianity, religion. And so when you take that away, and are able to sit with and examine kind of your biases, your thoughts, thought process around like, why do I believe this? Where does this come from? And be willing to kind of sit with those hard things and unlearn and be willing to relearn in a new way. It's really beautiful. And it's transformative to be able to, I think, see the world and humanity in a different way, in a beautiful way, like without the lens of religion and Christianity and to embrace people and accept people where they're at and to love them and to form connections and relationships and learn about people on, I think, a deeper human level, without feeling like there's ulterior motives, or, you know, like you have to connect with somebody because of like, this is what God wants you to do, or tell them about Jesus, because like, that was a big thing for me. It's just forming friendships and connections with people outside of Christianity, like starting over, basically, you know, leaving this, you know, we left when we moved here to Washington from California, we left all of that behind, like our Christian bubble, our world, and got to start over in a sense and connect with people and see people in their humanity and form friendships and relationships with people and just get to enjoy being with people and learning about people without feeling like it had to be through this lens of religion, of just getting to see people for who they are and accept them and love people and form friendships around a common basis of just humanity, you know, of just being human. And it's been hard, you know, forming friendships, I think, in general, just as you get older, like, finding your people, but I'm super grateful to, I guess, have space to be able to just connect with people and just be myself and be in a space and just get to receive people and connect with people as they are too, you know, and whatever they have to bring. That's really cool. Yeah, I feel like when you're in the Christian bubble, the first thing you need to know about someone is if they're also in the Christian bubble. Like, you meet them, you're like, you're a Christian, so you're safe. If the answer to that question is you're not a Christian, then you aren't safe and you don't know the truth, and then it's my job and my duty to make you a Christian. Yeah, so stressful. Exactly. There's this pressure, yeah, like this underlying pressure to feel like you have to, like, act a certain way or tell them about Jesus or do something, and then you lose out on, like, just the opportunity to connect, you know, on a human level with another person. Yeah, that could have been your future best friend who can help you through so many troubles in your life, and instead you're like, you're not a Christian. I fear you now. It's, like, built into your brain. It burns in you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. So, yeah. Do you have any friendships or connections still from the church or Christians that you are, like, close to at all? That's been yes and no. That's been part of my journey, as well, in deconstructing and reclaiming my voice and living as my authentic self, is being able to open up to my Christian friends, my Christian friends in California, and actually let them know that I'm not a Christian. Actually let them know that I'm not a Christian, that I haven't been a Christian for several years. And it was, you know, they received it, and a couple of them were like, I'm not totally surprised. And one girlfriend was, like, actually wanted to connect with me outside of, like, my letting them know and just kind of follow up and say, like, you know, I want to hear more. But it's definitely different. I mean, we are not, I think, I'm not the same person I was. And so part of me doesn't expect to maintain those same friendships that I had when I was a Christian, you know? Like, I was a very different person living a very different life, and I'm not that person anymore. And so part of me has come to that acceptance of, like, I don't expect these relationships to maintain and to be the same as they were before, because I'm not who I was. And I also am honoring myself by not being in a space and trying to be somebody that I'm not, you know, to fit in still with these people that I don't believe the same things that you believe, you know? Like, I love them, and we have a lot of history, a lot of history and a lot of life together. And I try to stay connected as much as I can. I think it's more on a surface-y level. But part of my journey is just honoring myself and, like, my authentic self and not maybe staying in friendships and relationships where we just don't, maybe we don't fit anymore, you know? So I've had to come to that place of acceptance, you know? What that was, was for that time, and now I'm in a different space. And I've made beautiful friendships here, you know, with people here who, when I tell them my story of, like, I have one girlfriend, when I tell her the story of who I was, I say, like, my Jesus days and then my post-Jesus days, you know, I tell her stuff like, and she's, like, baffled. Like, I cannot even imagine, like, that that is you or that you did those things or that's even real. Like, it's just, like, mind-blowing to her, like, that that is who I was, like, during that time, you know? That I lived that way and did those things, so. So hard. Because she was not raised religious, yeah. So, yeah. And it's, I mean, it's affected my family relationships, friendships back home, but I honestly feel more at home, at peace, and in my body, and was connected with myself, like, than I ever had. So, you know, like, that's all been part of the journey of, like, releasing, letting go, and, like, regaining, reclaiming my voice. I did a medicine journey last year, and that was a pivotal part of my journey of just, I mean, I had already, it was last year, so I was already not a Christian anymore, but it was a lot, a big pivotal moment and peace in my journey of reclaiming my voice, like, as a woman, and as a person coming out of Christianity. And there was a moment in the journey, like, I couldn't, like, physically move my head, and I was, like, feeling, like, paralyzed. And so I told my guide, and then she helped me work through it, and realizing, like, a lot of it was the pressure to focus ahead. You can't look to the right or to the left, like, you need to maintain this status quo, and you need to be this certain way. And it was, like, my head was in a vice, and as soon as I kind of worked through that and recognized, like, the religious component of it, and, like, just being in this kind of oppressive state growing up of, like, losing my voice, losing control over who I was, and being able to, like, release that, like, I was able to move in my body again. And so it was kind of this, like, powerful moment of reclaiming my voice and my identity, and learning to, like, reclaim, like, my agency over myself as a woman, and coming out of, like, the Christian space, and recognizing, like, you know, that it takes your voice away. Like, especially as a young girl and as a woman, like, you lose your voice, and you lose your identity. And as you are growing up, and you become a wife, or a mother, or you do this in the church, or that in the church, and you're giving all these parts of yourself away to other people, you know, like, you lose who you are. Like, I lost who I was, a lot of who I was in my identity. So I think coming out of Christianity to, like, having this awakening of coming back into my body, like, back into myself, and feeling more at home, like, with who I am, and empowered, and embracing who I am in my voice, like, than I ever has. And so it's, yeah, like, that's been a big part of my deconstruction journey, is just reclaiming that. That sounds beautiful. What other forms of healing, or what other forms of, I guess, therapy have you been using then, or in your life since you've deconstructed? Sure. Well, definitely a big proponent and supporter, advocate of therapy, and different modalities, I think that's definitely, and not because my husband is in the mental health profession. So it is, it's a game changer. It's definitely transformative. So I've done some IFS therapy, and that was, that's been really, that was really powerful to get to a lot of just that deep work within those parts, and the younger ones within myself, and working through a lot of that childhood trauma. Some EMDR, and just, I have a new therapist that I'm working with right now, and I just love her. And so we've been doing some EMDR to work through some past trauma. And so I just, I think that for anybody who is, has come out of, you know, Christianity, high control religion, like, to find yourself somebody that you can feel safe and comfortable with to work through these things. I think therapy, plant medicine, you know, and different modalities of therapy, I think are just hugely healing and transformational, like in the work of, I think, stripping away and unlearning and learning and becoming more your authentic self. Like, it's just, yeah, it's been, it's been really transformational for me. And I will say also, though, too, when Forrest started doing a lot of his deeper healing work, it can also feel really scary and overwhelming, too. You know, when you're coming out of things and feeling like all the stuff is coming up, it can feel really scary and overwhelming. Like, I actually initially was struggling with going to therapy myself, because I knew, I knew what I needed to do. Like, I know a lot of times I think we know we're at a place, like, something needs to change and shift, and we need to do something. But either we don't feel like we have the resources or the capacity, or even just, just I think talking to somebody about our trauma can feel really scary and overwhelming. But when I finally got to a place where I stepped into that space, like it really, and you find somebody that's safe to help you process those things, like it's, it's really transformational, you know. Yeah, it's the scariest thing you can do is, you know, like, just sit and talk about your trauma. Yeah, just be like, so what happened to you as a kid? And you're like, well, especially, especially with religious trauma, because the whole self, this self you're talking about isn't really existent while you're in the religion, your self is with God. And so to find that self deconstruct is terrifying, because you're almost like learning who you are from it all. Yes. Oh, 100%. It's just brutal. Oh, yeah. But it's, yeah, it's, it's really important, important work to, you know, so I definitely have a lot of respect for people who choose to step into that space, even though it's hard, you know, and be brave and to work through those things, you know, because it's only going to help in the long run, you know, we can finally come to a place where we find, like, that healing in our own voice and realize, like, I am the one who can save myself. Yeah, this whole time, and coming back to that self, like, it was in me the whole time, you know, that voice, I feel like that was guiding me the whole, you know, like, throughout my life, it's like, that was me, like, we can, when we can learn to trust ourselves and our inner voice and get back to that place of realizing, like, I'm, I'm here, and I'm strong enough and brave enough, and I can do this, and I can save myself. And I have the ability, it doesn't have to be out here, given away to other people, to an invisible deity, a book, a partner, you know, as a woman, like, as your identity as a mom, or, you know, a wife or whatever, like, that we have that ability within us, you know, to take care of ourselves, you know, so totally save ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That goes for everybody. If you're listening, by the way, yeah, do the fucking work. And we know it's not easy, but trust yourself, but trust that little voice inside of you, right? I had that same little voice, and it made me kind of an asshole as a teenager, and all I knew how to deal with was just like, screw you, dad, you don't know how I, you know, it was like, and it was presented as being such a heathen, but really, it was just that inner voice, like, that kid was just like, I don't know what's, something's up, dude, so the only way we're gonna get out of this is like, how toddlers get out of things, you know, I think that took me a long time to soften that inner voice, and to learn how to love and support that inner voice, because inner voice was such like an angst teen, I was just so pissed off. But part of my healing has been learning how to love and support that inner being, which you brought up IFS, which is internal family systems. And, you know, like, that has been a huge success in me learning how to build a relationship with these parts of me, you know, that were, had a survival, had this sort of fight or flight, like, let's go mentality, and I've been able to really learn them better, and so that's beautiful. I'm so happy you made it to our podcast, and you really are incredible at doing this, so you should get yourself on some more podcasts. Get out there and share that voice. It's not the most fun. No, but seriously, you're like very, you're really good at sharing your story. I don't know, I know this is nerve-wracking, and like, you have a lot of your story that really, really is beautiful. Well, and the woman's story is so important in all this. It really is. I feel like the more people we interview, the more that's even becoming true, that us white men were just not the real ones oppressed and struggling, although we have so much religious trauma from it. You listen to the woman's stories, and it's just, like, I get so terrified for the position y'all were put in during that whole time and submissive through it all, and so I just, I'm so grateful that you're willing to come on this podcast and even share your story. Yeah, and thanks for creating that space, because I think that even just you guys creating a space as two white guys, you know, but being willing to, like, create kind of this container, the space for people, for women, for myself to come on and share our stories in a way that's safe and to receive it and to hear it and to let us, you know, let me speak my truth, like, I think is really beautiful too. Totally. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, thank you for that. I've heard that from a handful of people, like, ever since me and Zach opened the door to start having guests on. It took us a long time to feel like what we were doing here mattered, because it just, right, like, well, the internet is very toxic and white, masculine. A lot of the algorithms in our country seem to be, like, you know, facilitating that toxic masculinity that is ingrained in our culture. But that me and Zach are, like, I won't speak for Zach, but for me, I've been able to slowly learn more of kind of what the hell we're doing here as, like you said, white men, which we've just, I've, like, deconstructed so much of my gender and my race through this podcast. And so, it makes me sit pretty unstill and unnerved about being that role, right? Like, being raised by white men in a church that we're always telling people, like, this is the way to be. And now here we are, like, I have no idea what to be, but hopefully these stories, hopefully the safe space that we're creating will help people feel safe to share their stories. Because I believe, like, your story and our story, I think all of our stories help build an artistic picture of radicalized humanity and why it's so important to, like, you know, if you will, unearth that or exhume it, you know, because it's not just Christianity, it's rampant in our entire planet, you know? And so, that safe space, it's all about that safe space and some things for saying that. Well, yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think just, I think I mentioned to you when we talked on the phone just our, I think a lot of times people, well, and even I'll just speak as a woman, like, feeling like, is my story, is it important? Like, does my story matter? Is anybody going to resonate? But just I think everybody has a story and it's important to tell. Our stories are all important and being willing to share those, because there is going to be somebody that resonates and understands and connects, especially coming out of, you know, the life situations that we have, that will maybe feel less alone and more like, oh, my God, like, yes, I totally connect with that and feeling like that little bit of like, okay, I know I'm not alone and somebody else has experienced that as well, you know? So, stories are super valuable. The huge part. And important, so, yeah. Yeah, 100%. Our stories are extremely valuable. And as we vulnerability share our stories here, we hope that anybody watching, it will help them feel stronger in their values, right? Like, because I think that like those core human values that, you know, are somewhat come from all of us just by being human. That's what gets sandwiched on, right? That's what gets like blocked out or like, what's it mean just to have values as a human person for planet Earth, for other humans? And I think like learning these stories and what happens when you're radicalized as like a white man or a Puerto Rican gay man from Puerto Rico or a black woman or a white woman, like, whatever, like space and race and gender matters so much that I think that what Zach just said is really important for white men to be recognizing, which is, damn, I can't believe that like what the what women had gone through in the church. That's like really important for white men to be saying. Because that's part of the white man's experience. And I'm just like, I always put white men on blast that we should be recognizing how fucked up it was for everybody else but us. Throughout most of it, all of history. For all of history. For all of time. Well, we've been talking for about two hours. So that's just, you know, that's a win-win for us. Yeah. But to wrap it up, Zachary, let's wrap it up. Let's wrap this baby up. We have a famous question. So to all the other individuals deconstructing at whatever age that might be, do you have any advice that you could give to maybe help them through this process of deconstructing? Hmm. I would say to trust yourself. To listen. To be willing to like, to listen to that voice inside that maybe is telling you something is off or needs to change. To be willing to step into the work, even if it feels scary. And that it will only benefit you in the end. And that you have the ability within you to do it. And to live your full, authentic, beautiful human story and life. And it's possible. And whatever stage you're at. And to be willing to just, yeah, like, to just listen. Listen and trust yourself in the process. Beautiful. Thank you for that. I love that. Yeah. That's so simple and yet so hard at times. Yeah. Every day is a new day to learn how to trust yourself. Thank you so much, Stacey, for being here. One of the things is I'm like, this whole time that we've been talking, I've been able to, you know, take in all the art that's tattooed on your body and I'm seeing butterflies, roses, vines. This is also part of my journey. I love it because I'm seeing like vines and roses and butterflies, pollinators. But I'm also seeing the hummingbird right on your right. Yes. Hummingbirds are, yeah, hold a magical, like they're magical to me. And so I love hummingbirds. So I just want to let you know that I think that your energy, the way that you speak of your story, the way you speak of other cultures, how your life has played out for your family, is you kind of are like the hummingbird in the room. You know, you might not hear them at first, but they're getting right at the core of that, like, beautiful flower. And when you catch them and you see their wings, they're all on their own. Right. And they're like, hey, this is some good juice in here if you want to keep up. And then you're like, gone, get a glimpse of you and then you're gone. And I feel like that's you. I feel like you're the hummingbird in the room that has a lot, so much meaningful energy that is like, hey, if you want to get a piece of this and learn something like, you know, catch this wave or whatever. And I think that's a lot of you. So that's a beautiful tattoo. I think it speaks volumes. Thank you. Appreciate that. Well, there you have it. Anything else, Zachary? No, that's it. We wrap it up. Wrapping the present up and throwing it out with the bathwater, right? Hey, wrap and throw out the bathwater. That's right. That sounded very religious. Well, thank you, everybody. This has been a wonderful talk with Stacey Benedict. Thank you, Stacey, for being your immense gratitude for you to take your time. Thank you so much. Out of your Sunday. I hope this has been a refresher of a little bit of what church is like on the other side of the spectrum. Indeed. Yeah. Switching it up. Yeah. It's been a gift. Thank you. Absolutely. Same. Likewise. Much love, everybody. Thank you. And we'll see you next time. See you next time. See you soon. Bye.