Shea Quinn, Leaving the Baptist Church & Transformation | Ep 77 | Moral Combat

In episode 77 of the Moral Combat Podcast, hosts Zachary and Nathaniel welcome Shea Quinn, who traveled from Medford, Oregon, to share her transformative journey. Shea, host of the podcast "Grow with Shea" and co-host of "The Waiting Table," opens up about her weight loss surgery in 2022, which sparked profound self-discovery and a reevaluation of her Baptist upbringing. She recounts how reconnecting with her body and emotions led her to question her faith and confront the discomfort she felt regarding the treatment of LGBTQ+ individuals within her religious community. Shea reflects on her marriage to Dylan, their shared deconstruction process, and the pivotal moment they considered divorce. Drawing a vivid parallel to the film Pleasantville, she describes her awakening from a "black and white" existence to one full of color and emotion. Throughout the conversation, themes of self-love, intuition, and spiritual openness emerge, as Shea shares a significant encounter with the angel Gabriel and her ability to sense and name emotional blockages in others. The hosts resonate with Shea's experiences, touching on their own spiritual and psychedelic journeys, and participate in a prayer experiment to release their blockages. The episode concludes with Shea offering heartfelt advice to those deconstructing their faith, emphasizing the importance of self-acceptance and the freedom in acknowledging one's own limitations. The hosts express gratitude for Shea's genuine insights and encourage listeners to explore her podcast and workshop on blockages.

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Moral Combat, hosted by siblings Nathan and Zach Blaustone, is a heartfelt exploration of life's complexities, with a primary focus on healing from religious trauma. Step into their world as they navigate the realms of music production, confront the lingering echoes of religious trauma, and embrace laughter as a universal healer. With each episode, Nathan and Zach weave together their unique perspectives, seasoned with dynamic personalities that make every discussion an engaging adventure. From unraveling the complexities of personal growth to fostering open communication, healing the scars of religious indoctrination, and embracing the unfiltered authenticity of siblinghood, Moral Combat is your passport to thought-provoking conversations, heartfelt insights, and the pure joy of shared moments. Join us in the combat for morality, one conversation at a time.

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Transcript

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Well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, hi, Zachary. Hey, Nathaniel. So good to see you. It's fantastic. You're looking mighty. Welcome to the moral combat podcast. Yeah. Welcome everyone. And MCPF, MCPF, MCPF moral combat podcast. Do we actually have fans on? So you think we have three? Yeah, no, we have, we actually, I think we do have a few, a few fans. Starting to get them. Or is it what I've been saying now is more like friendemies. Friendemies. Yeah. Definitely recently we have some friendemies on there. A lot of interesting characters in the comments. And I'm sure you'll see them on this episode too, but that's why we're, you know, that's not why we're here. No. Um, why are we actually here? Why, what are we doing in the moral combat podcast? I mean, what do we talk about here? We talk about religious trauma, religious trauma, indeed. Um, so there's some comedy. There's some, no, there's no, it's, it can be funny. The episode that was posted two weeks ago before this one was definitely comedic. Yeah. Yeah. We're actually on a little podcast circuit here. We do every other week, but we are, this is our third week and in a row. And sitting across from me is another wonderful guest who's here. Um, and so we talk about religious trauma in this podcast. Zachary and I grew up in the Christian evangelical, radical, Calvary chapel, Calvary chapel faith. Um, our father is a pastor still currently, and we're doing this podcast in the same County that we were raised in. Um, we're healing from being raised as radical Christians. Um, I've been at a church for a long time now, since I was like 15, 16, I'm 33, same age that Jesus was crucified, which is a lot of how this year has gone. Crucifixions. Yeah. Well, crucifying things out of my life. There you go. You know, I don't know how ever you want to say that. I could go so far on that, but let's just. It's not about me today. No, it's not about me either. I know it's not about you either, but, um, yeah, we're brothers. Yes. I love you. Love you. Let's jump in. Let's go with us today. A very special guest who we've never actually had this happen ever on our show. Right? We have people like we talk through the internets, the inner tubes. Um, and every once in a while, we get lucky enough to have somebody in studio and, um, the quality's better. You're going to get that 4k sunshine. All the shorts are going to be so much better right now. I'm like shaky. My heart's racing because it's just being in the presence of everyone's energy is different. Um, which I love because it's more authentic and that's what we're trying to do here. Um, with us today is somebody that drove literally nine hours, like at nine or 10. I'll let you say what it is, but, uh, she has her own podcast. Obviously she has a story that has something to do with religious trauma and that's why they wanted to be here today, which we're so thankful, so much gratitude for. Um, but she does have her own podcast and it goes by grow with Shay. Today we'll have Shay Quinn on, uh, who came from Medford, Oregon. She's also part of the waiting table, which is another podcast, her and a group of other people that, uh, I'll let her describe those things. We're so excited to have Shay who drove all the long way just to be here on our podcast. I'm like, why? I'm like, okay, well here you are. Uh, so warm welcome for, uh, Shay Quinn. Yes. Thank you. You gave us way more credit. It was not nine hours. It was under six. Oh, sorry, it's Medford, right? It's right on the border. So, but I appreciate that. No. And it was so fun. Like we came down and we drove through all of like the wine country. I'm like, this is so cool. And this is your first time in a wine country? Yeah. Cause I grew up in Los Angeles and so I know that area really well, but I think I've only been to San Francisco once when I was 10, never to this area. We just didn't really come to the Bay area. So I'm like, it's beautiful. I get why people like it here. So it was a fun excuse to come and see you guys. I was thinking about that when we were, you know, cause we've had this interview planned for like months now, it feels like, and you had told us and you were like, you know, I want to drive and be on, we were like, I remember like, I called Zach right after I was like, dude, she wants to drive all the way to where I was like, get ready, a lot of pressure, but in a good way, right? Yeah. Because I know you have a story and that's why you're here. And so we're like, so thankful for you to. Vulnerability reach out to us, which you did on your own, which is, you know, like we found why people want to be on our shows are interesting, you know, cause we're talking about our past trauma or whatever. And some people are in the beginning stages of healing. Some people are kind of like deconstructed for many years. Um, so thank you for being here. Yeah. Thank you for having me. And I mean, it's just as much to open your home up in your studio. What are you talking about? We're on the 20th floor. And so I mean, yes, yes. Open up your studio, the window washer right now. Yes. Yeah. The elevator has been broken for months. Yeah. Yeah. The stairs were a little tough getting up, but yeah, no, it's great. It's great to be here. I, I love opportunities like that, where it's kind of an excuse just to like explore someplace new and just like have a good time. And so now I'm happy to be here taking those opportunities. Yeah. I feel like it's so easy to be like, oh, well, it's too far. I can't do it. Yes. But then when you just choose to do it, it's like, no, we'll make it happen. We'll drive. And it was great. Yeah. Wine country is absolutely beautiful. Well, and fun fact in Southern Oregon where we live, they call us mini Napa there because we have a lot of wineries. So it's kind of fun. Like seeing, ooh, this is like mama bear. This is like Napa Valley where it all started. Have you been to Napa? No, that's the thing. I haven't been anywhere like really over here. Yeah. Well, what's interesting about Napa is it's so known. Everyone knows Napa, but it's just this little tiny city. I know. I think we just like drove through, or I think we drove through it. Right. Yeah. To get here. And it was pretty tiny. It's like vineyards everywhere, but like the actual like living and city of Napa is really, really small. But Napa County is really big. Big because of the vineyards, but like where people live is like right here. Yeah, it's true. Yeah. It's like major cities. Their downtown is always like kind of smaller than everyone lives. But I just saw you look off screen because also for the first time in studio, we have an audience. Live studio audience. Give us a little clap audience. We don't have a camera on them. That would have been smart. We should have the GoPro on. No, it's not because then people would know we're in a garage. We have to keep the, we have to keep the illusion. Yes. Um, but yes. And then also we have your husband, Dylan, who's in studio. And then we have my wife, Megan, who's never sat in studio. She's always like doing something in the yard with the dog or special. I know. And so, uh, I definitely feel like I'm on the spot, you know, cause I'm the one that edits the podcast and now I have to edit it now in my head. You know, like don't say anything to be judged in the moment. Just kidding. No, I'm going to say whatever the fuck we want. Say it how it is. That's why I like you guys. Well, luckily he gets the long form and so he gets to take out anything he wants, but he also gets to leave in anything he wants. So you have to be on your best behavior. Sometimes I'll be watching. I'm like, you left in what I said, but you took out what you said. Very interesting. That's so not true. What are you talking about? But having to edit that much long form content, I would take your job over yours. Well, it's sex making it sound, it's. I think that what we do in this podcast, right? The stories can be really heavy. And so sometimes I will just unload something that I wasn't planning on. And then I'll know, like in a week, I'll have to go re-listen to myself and like this outer perspective. And so what's kind of lucky is it's heavy. It's like, can be like, it can take me like a week sometimes to edit one episode just because it's like 20 minutes go by and I'm like, this is some heavy shit we did, you know, and, uh, but what's great is I can kind of see myself in an outer perspective and there's some weird level of healing and like growth that comes from seeing yourself talking about your own vulnerable shit or responding to someone else's, I don't know. It's so, it's so different. Like when you're in the vibe, like you get something or when you're in a podcast and you're like talking, you get something so different than when you're listening to it on the outside. And it's like, I learned so much just through the editing of my own stuff where it's like, I don't even remember saying that or us talking about that. And it's like, oh, it's just, it's cool. That's what's so cool about the magic of podcasting. And absolutely, it's cool. I really learned how to listen better before we were having any guests. It was just like every, and we were doing it every weekend. And so Zach would come here and we would just sit here by our, no one's really, we were really getting, we're getting maybe like 20 views, 15 views an episode is that not even. And so we just knew nobody was really watching it. And it was like a really crazy time of learning how much I didn't like the first year was like, man, I don't, I don't listen to my brother talk about his shit at all. I'm not listening to him. I was like seeing my ADHD and my like narcissist, like the ways it was just kind of like, because there's nervousness when you're talking on camera. Like it was like, it was really interesting to see how much we both were able to work on, you know, like giving space and like. And so, yeah, it's been a really fascinating ride. I feel like it like trains you how to have better conversations too. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. And the famous words of Dr. Now, do you guys watch my 600 pound life? He says, the scale doesn't lie, people do. And I feel like the camera doesn't lie, people do. Those that watch the show will get it. It's not as funny if you don't. Oh, that was great. I love that impression. It makes me really want to see it though. Yeah. Yeah. People, those that, if you know, you know. The scale doesn't lie. The scale doesn't lie, people do. Wow. You guys did pretty good actually for Nod here, right? You're going to watch back and be like, that was pretty good. I think I've seen The Doctor now. Yeah. Doctor Now. I think I've seen it. Doctor Now. Yeah. It's like a play on Doctor Who. Yeah. I love Doctor Who. Well, we're here at the Moral Combat Podcast and you have a story. I have a story. I guess my first question, there's, there's really no structure to this. I have a stack of papers that has, have some really amazing chat, GPT influenced questions, because we do everything on our own here. And so, these are great questions and I always have these here if I really want, I've never used them. I think it's about like, so much of what I've learned is like, let's just jump into it. And one of the questions I like to ask to get into it is like, why in the hell would you want to come on camera publicly? Because I know you have your own podcast. Sure. And a lot of our guests don't have their own podcasts. So I know you're familiar with this space and this sort of kind of performative energy. But, yeah, our, you know, I think I know that you follow our podcast and you've been following it and we don't always get the nicest comments of the people that come on and the stories that are shared here. And so, why would you want to come on a podcast to share the story? What was it about you and your situation? What got you here? Oh, man, I think it all leads back to having a story, right? And part of my story where I feel like a lot of this self discovery journey where it started was when I had weight loss surgery or bariatric surgery in March of 2022. Wow. Yeah, I was only 27 at the time. And I think that was really just the kickoff and the catalyst to going, who the fuck am I as a person? Like, and I think that's normal, too, especially in like your late 20s. You're kind of trying to figure that out. And it was just a really interesting time, especially connecting with my mind and body for the first time. How I talk about it a lot is I felt like before having surgery, I was kind of just this floating head. I wasn't connected to my body at all. And then after having surgery, it was like I had to do learn how to do everything from the beginning. I had to learn how to eat for the first time again drink for the first time. And in that it was just such an intense experience of like, expressing emotions for the first time. And also to just to give you a little bit of context before even having surgery, I have my master's degree in psychology, like I've done lots of therapy, like I had a lot of I had done a lot of work up to that time, but something about that experience, it just made it all connect in a different way. And so it was after that, that I just started looking into what I believed in more of like my religion. I grew up in a Baptist environment. So like very fundamental Christian as well down in Los Angeles. And I just started like there's always been stuff about the religion that I'm just like, I just don't like that or that doesn't feel right. Like how people are treated who are part of the LGBTQ community. I just always hated that, that it's wrong. And I feel like part of being in that religion, I just always felt like I wanted to love people in a way that I was never allowed to. And I'm just forewarning, I tend to cry a lot. We have Kleenex here, I love it when they get used. I know good. No, but that's I think part of to where, thank you. Yeah, just just bring it over here. If you guys need it, I'll pass it around, it'll be for sure. But then after surgery, I because I was just looking for other people that I could relate to and and kind of just connect to and I just didn't find a lot of people and I thought, well, this is a big experience that I've been through. I'm learning who I am and who I was created to be. Why don't I just try to share this for maybe the person who's like me, who is on that same journey, too? And so that's really where it started. And so, like, I remember the first YouTube video I did where I like cried on it because I just would never cry in front of people like ever. That was like the worst thing I could have ever done. And it was just something that was so healing about it because it's like, this is who I am. And so I cry less now, believe it or not, believe it or not. This feels good. I think it's just a new space to be like sharing my story in that kind of way and showing that this is like who we are as human beings, like expressing emotions. This is this is normal and good and just something that I just felt like I was never allowed or taught how to do growing up in the way I did. So yeah, so with you, it's like I've been sharing my story now for the last couple years to where it's like, oh, yeah, that doesn't scare me as much in the beginning. It did. It was so scary. Like, I could have never been on a podcast like this, like right when I started. But now it's like, no, this religious aspect and the spiritual aspect is just another part of who I am. And so it's just cool to like, share that with more people. And yeah, just have it be received in a in a cool way. And there's just so much that I've gained in that experience of sharing my story. It's like, I just learned so much more about myself and other people in that process. And that's what I've always loved. Like I've always loved people and being in a space where I can just like show up and listen to their stories and share mine and just have it be so genuine and authentic. It's like that's what I've been craving my whole life. And so any chance I have an opportunity to do that, of course. So and that's the vibe I got from you guys was like, oh, these are just cool people that I just want to like connect with. And wow. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. Well, that's our episode. Yeah. Yeah. That's about it. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah. Well, I'm tearing up to it's been a long time since I've actually shed tears. You've only shed tears once on this podcast, but tearing up like. So thank you for initiating or pushing me. I'll always feel the feels. I'll always be the first one to cry because and then what's nice. Yeah, what's nice about authenticity, like everything you said is so beautiful. So thank you for thank you for getting to the place you are in life to be here today. Thank you. Well, thank you for receiving. I know it's hard ass work. Yeah, but there's something about that, like extreme vulnerability and authenticity with each other. Like we're such communal beings. And I think that. Especially on camera, especially in the podcast world, Hollywood, whatever, like there's it's always about performance. It's always about like being on. And what's interesting about our show here is we are on. We are performing like life is a performance. And I feel like I am a registered nurse. And so like the way I present myself, like to my patients is up to me, you know, I can like form or I can just be authentic. And one of the things I've learned with patients is like. Most people are really honest and authentic when they're really nervous and scared or have something scary coming. And when I reflect that back at them, where I like match with my own vulnerability, their fear, like fear just lifts. And I think that like humans are supposed to be doing this. It's like, oh, because fear isn't bad. But like if we can be scared together and there's like sort of this sort of like, oh, we're good. Like at least I'm not alone in this journey. So that was really beautiful. But I'm before we like jump into the growing up Baptist in Oregon, right? You said you're in L.A., actually, yeah, well, I'm a little bit in Oregon, too. That's right by, um, Marietta. Oh, yeah. Is that in Santa Clarita? No, that's in, Marietta is Costa Mesa. Oh, yeah, Costa Mesa. And that's where like our cult started. Okay. Okay, cool. I only know that it's in Costa Mesa because I've heard Costa Mesa since I came out of the womb. Costa Mesa, Costa Mesa, Costa Mesa, Costa Mesa, Costa Mesa. But the surgery that you had, because I'm a nurse and I like pre-op. That's right. And I know that going through what you've been through, which I don't know, I can't remember the exact surgery you had, but I know there's like months of prep, right? That require like psychological stuff and physical stuff. And like, it's a huge process. And so I know that's a life changing. Yes. So congratulations on that. Thank you. That's so fucking cool. Thank you. Meeting these people right before they have their surgeries. Like are these people like patients or individuals is, um, I like their, it's like the most unique, most people are like having hips and they have to have physical therapy, but these people are like, so in a certain, like really, really vulnerable place. Right. What was the, can you, do you feel comfortable? Like, of course you do. Right. Cause your podcasts are about this, what was the name of the surgery? Yeah. So I had the vertical sleeve gastrectomy or VSG is how they abbreviate it. And, um, they take out basically 80% of your stomach going vertically and then they staple it up and take it out. And a lot of the misconceptions and like I had these misconceptions before learning about it is I thought weight loss surgery was just so you ate less like, and that's what I thought, but it's been really cool learning about how obesity is a disease and it's not often treated that way. Um, but the surgery does so much more than just making you eat less. Cause now I actually eat two years post-op pretty like a pretty typical diet. Um, but there's so much that it helps with like your metabolism. It helps with, um, your hormones. There's so much that's involved. And so, um, it's been really cool to learn that. And it is, it's such a neat community of people. And I've found so much community of other people who have had similar surgeries and, um, yeah, it's like, I think for so long, when you have excess weight, um, you're just treated differently and you feel like you have no, or I should, I shouldn't say, I felt like I was treated differently and like, I didn't have a lot of worth coming from a lot of different places, but, um, it's really neat to see people transition out of that period. And there's a lot of work to get there, but then like seeing them really embrace who they are and kind of come out of that shell. And, um, so I actually do one-on-one coaching. It's open for anybody, but, um, a lot of bariatric patients, pre and post-op I get to work with, which is so fun. So yeah, it is a really special group of people. Wow. So they took 80% of your stomach away? Yeah. I didn't know that much of my stomach was like holding me back all these years, but it really was. That's a lot of stomach. Yeah. Yeah. And then over time it stretches and like where I can like eat more now and stuff, but yeah, in the beginning it's, um, it's wild where it's like, I would, I would like, would take like a little sip of water and it's like, oh gosh, like it's just, it's so weird. Yeah. It felt like being a newborn baby, like as much as what I could relate to that, but it's wild. It's a weird journey. Were you able to see the stomach taken out? Yes. I, well, I asked them, I was like, can you please blow it out? Or not blow it up, but like they, they fill it with like gas, I think or something to see, you can see what it looks like. So they did, they took a picture. Yeah. Yeah. And I, oh, it was so interesting. I wish I could have like, I wish they could have recorded it so I could have seen it. Like I think that would have been cool to see. Yeah. But it was a good experience. I know. You're one of those patients. I am. I am. I'm like, do you think I can take home my extra stomach? I want to blend it in a smoothie and eat it. Oh gosh. We'll take gallstones out and people are like, can I have the gallstones? I'm just like, you want your own gallstones? Sure. It's getting super popular. Eat placenta of your baby. It's been popular. I know, but like it's getting trendy. You know, there's a lot of research that, you know, it's just, and you can, you know, dry it out, grind it, put it in, I know it's gross, but it's actually really beautiful. It's super good for you. Yeah. And depending on what psychedelics or plant medicines you do, it makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Just eat yourself and you'll survive. No, not quite produce new life. Then eat yourself. Then you'll survive. Wait, what? But so amazing. I know that getting the surgery done is just like, yeah, I'm just like so much healing. I imagine went down mind, body and soul. And so I've met people that are getting close to surgery day and then don't end up showing up because something really, well, yeah, because like she said, this is a disease, right? And like we all have our coping mechanisms, right? Like, I don't know about you, but like food is a huge coping mechanism for me. And so like having a healthy relationship with food, I mean, like we've talked about so much in relation to religious trauma, you know, and like we grew up in a family that was like pretty basic food stuff, but our, our dad who, you know, we love our father, the pastor, but he was like obsessed with chocolate, like, uh, yeah, he would hide. Sorry, dad. I mean, he doesn't watch this podcast obviously, but he would hide chocolate and would sneak out like at two in the morning and go eat it. Yeah, I'd catch him. Well that was like a season, but like we were like kids and like, but I think it makes a lot of sense. I mean, I've like cereals my go to, I have like, I have peanut butter dude. But my point is that like there's so many layers to getting that surgery. Yes. And so like comparing it to like a hip surgery where like people, people need a new hip, right? Like that's a very common surgery. The insurance covers that easily. And they're like, go see a physical therapist. Oh, that didn't work out. Try these meds or that don't work out. Get this shot now we'll pay for it. And then, you know, cause our country's capitalistic healthcare. And so for these surgeries you have like endless things you have to qualify for and like to get to that point to where it happens. And then it's like recovery time years. And so it's so hard to you because just like it's not recognized in the medical field the way that other diseases or things are recognized too, which makes it even more challenging. It's getting better, but it's like so many people in the community share stories of like, oh yeah, I went to my primary care doctor and they said, oh, just eat less and move your body more. And it's like, no, this is a disease. And like all of those things contribute what we've put into our bodies. Um, you know, our mental and emotional wellbeing, how stressed we are, all of those things contribute. But that's what's so sad. I just think that people who have excess weight often get overlooked and get called, you know, oh, they're just lazy. They just need to eat less and like, you know, stick to plan. And it's like, I'm proof of that. Like I did a lot before ever deciding to have surgery and that's what was so frustrating. It's like I was doing all those things that I was told to do by healthcare professionals. And it was like, nobody said, hey, these are like, you have the disease of obesity, here's some treatment options. What do you think about these? And so that's part of what just drives the passion of talking about it. Cause, um, I wish I would have had that and I'm thankful where I got it done early and, and, you know, advocated for myself, but there's lots of other people who don't have that opportunity. And a really big reason what like pushed me into getting surgery was, um, me and my husband had wanted to have kids and we just weren't able to conceive. I got diagnosed with, um, polycystic ovarian syndrome, PCOS, which is becoming more talked about in common. And so, um, that was really what led me into looking into surgery, but it's become like a lot more than that. But, but I know there's people I talk with where it's like, I wish I would have known to do that cause I would have had more kids or I wasn't able to have kids. And so, um, yeah, interesting journey. Well, the famous question that comes after that is how does this connect to your religious trauma? Right? It's like, yeah. Uh, all of this like you're saying was like a pinnacle in your life was having the surgery, right? Then you were like pleasantly surprised how like awakened or this rebirth, which is funny because in religion, right, you have like a rebirth in Christ. And then when you like my experience, like leaving the faith, right. It's a rebirth. That was, that was, that was the real rebirth. It was like Neo in the matrix. Yeah. Like in that water where he's like swimming and looking up, he was like, you're all on your own trying to like figure out these emotions and the world that's so beautiful. So, but like, yeah, was it 2022 when you get constructed as well? Yeah. Um, I would say like leading up to that, I started asking more questions and really just, again, like I said, there were just some hard blocks for me where I'm like, I just can't get past that. Like I can't get past, you guys will know the saying, hate, um, love the sinner, hate the sin. Like I just couldn't get past that where I'm like, I hate that way of thinking. Like it just puts such a barrier on like how I can show up and love people. And I just hate that. So it was kind of just allowing myself to ask those questions of like, and it, and it's scary. Like it felt so scary, but then I think it was more after having surgery, like I said, for whatever reason, it just really connected my mind and my body. And I just started seeing, um, before I go into this too, like a lot of the words I use are because of like how I grew up. And so like, I think a lot of times as humans, we use different language to just, to describe like very similar things. Yeah. So some of the language I might use might be representative of like how we grew up and stuff. Cause I just don't know the language. So I like to caveat that before I say it, but like I just, I really saw God show up in ways that I had never experienced him, her, it, you know, like before where it became much more of like a spiritual thing rather than a religious thing. And it was just interesting after surgery, I just had all of these interesting spiritual things kind of happen that I couldn't explain. I never like heard about in church and, or if I did, it was kind of in like, Ooh, that's like woo woo stuff. Like don't like, you know, that's the devil, you know? And so it was really overwhelming. Um, and like right after surgery, experiencing some of those spiritual things and the way that like, I just, I like to describe it, it was almost like I had seen rain out of a window for a long time and it's like I knew I could describe it. I knew what it was about and then for whatever reason after surgery it was like I was immersed in the rain for the first time where it was like, Oh, like this is really different than like how I imagined God or the universe again, whatever word you want to use in that. It was just so different. So, um, yeah, I just had very interesting spiritual experiences of, I would get like, I call them like God phrases in my mind or like started hearing, um, not hearing, but sometimes like getting words or phrases that I knew like weren't the way that I talked and I don't just interesting things like that, that I had never experienced before where I was like, and I felt crazy, like I felt crazy. I'm like, something's wrong with me. And now over time I've been able to kind of learn how to integrate the two pieces. So it's not like I'm kind of lost in that spiritual, like, Oh my gosh, this is just so crazy. The world and the universe is so much bigger than what I thought it was. And then like having to integrate into like being in reality and normal life was kind of hard, but now I feel like I've found that balance. But, um, but yeah, and it's hard sometimes to talk about cause I know not everybody who leaves religion, um, experiences those spiritual things in that same kind of way. And so like, I'm always careful not to be triggering in that sense, but yeah, I don't know. It's just, I've learned a lot and I've seen that I, I know a lot less than I thought I did. And, um, and I think that's really cool. And I think it's just a lot bigger than how I was taught the Christian God is. So yeah, I don't even remember what question we started with, but I think he was asking about when you really started to deconstruct. So I'd probably say like then the short answer abbreviated is like that those first six months after surgery were really big months of doing that. Of just like it was intense. Yeah. So very recent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then in that time it was like just letting, allowing myself to be like who I really was created to be. And I use that phrase a lot, but I do believe that I was created, um, and I think just somewhere along the way I, it just kind of got lost. Um, and after having surgery, it's been, it's felt more of like a homecoming of like a lot of how I am now is very much like how I was when I was like five and six years old, kind of before the world or the people or whatever kind of ruined it. Yeah. Um, so that's been really fun too. Um, but yeah, so I would say like the first six months after surgery, it was like really intense and then integrating it into like, okay, this is who I am as an individual person. And then on top of that, my husband Dylan is here and we got married when we were 15 or sorry, we didn't get married. We started dating when we were 15 and 16, but not much longer after 1921 we got married the way to do it. I know. Yeah, exactly. So not only deconstructing and learning who I am and not being two becomes one, right? Like we're not, Oh, we're not one person. We're not one identity. Like, you know, crazy to think about. So yeah. Yeah. The first two years, like I feel like now we're kind of in a, it's, it's like kind of over the hump of like, man, it's been hard. Really hard. I bet. Was your deconstruction at the same time? No, no, not, not really. Um, I started kind of first asking more questions and like talking with Dylan a bit more about it and, um, and then his kind of came a bit after. Um, so that was hard too for both of us in different ways. And I don't want to speak on his experience, but, um, but yeah, it was like just being in different places. And again, I, I don't know just how we grew up. Like, I just thought like you got married and you had the same beliefs forever. You were always aligned on everything forever. And then what we started kind of looking at is like, okay, the people we know who have had more traditional marriages is what I'll call them. Um, either kind of get to a point where they go on like autopilot where they're just kind of like become roommates. They're not really like, you can tell they don't even really like each other that much. Um, or something like major will happen, like, you know, infidelity or somebody will leave the other. Yeah, exactly. Um, and then there'll be like a partying, right? Like a divorce or a partying or whatever. And it was hard for us because we were like, well, we don't really want like either of those options. And we do still want to be together, but we are like really different people for obviously from 19 and 21, I would hope we were. And so, yeah, it's been a very clunky process of like needing to do our own individual work to figure out who we are as individual people and then having to come together and do work together to figure that out. But I think it was just really freeing part of that deconstruction going, okay, we can actually put divorce on the table. We can put like not being together on the table and like not saying that's what we were like excited about, but it was like, do we really want to just be in a marriage because like a religion told us we had to be or like stay together? It's like, Oh, that just kind of sucks. Like, and, and, um, and just not avoiding the reality of that could be a possibility. Yeah. And we kind of got to, or at least for me, I got to the point where it's like, I love you too much as like a person and respect you too much of a person that like, if we're not compatible or we're like not the right fit, like let's talk about that because like, I don't want you to be unhappy. I don't want to be unhappy. And I know that's like how I grew up in the Christian religion. It's not about being happy. Like you'd sacrifice yourself. Like it's not about that. So it's like, I still hear those phrases anytime I say something like that. But I'm like we get to choose like what our life looks like and I don't want it to be like that. And so, um, and it's funny cause it's like that was always such a scary idea of like having a divorce on the table cause you're not supposed to get really against the really against the, especially if there wasn't infidelity, then it's like, what are you doing? Right. And you're talked about in the church. Did you hear? Yeah. They just left. I know for no reason. No reason at all. They just were bored. Yeah. God must have left the relationship. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. But the funny thing is it's like once we gave ourselves the freedom to make a choice, it's like, no, I actually do want to be in this. Not because of religion is telling me to, but like I really want to, like I really like you and like I want to be with you. And there's just been, I kind of, have you guys seen the movie Pleasantville? I don't know. Sounds familiar. Okay. It's like, it's an older movie now, but it's like essentially these kids from the nineties, they go into like a fifties sitcom show and where it's like all black and white and then they start disrupting it because they're like bringing their nineties bad kids way out. Yeah, exactly. But then what ends up happening is like in this like perfect utopia color starts to, oops, sorry, color starts to like emerge and it's like people get so freaked out about it and then they kind of start separating like these people have color, but it's like once they experience emotions for the first time is when it breaks out into color. And I feel like that's just like what my life has been like, like, and in our marriage too, where it's like we were living in black and white and it wasn't bad. Like there were a lot of good elements to it. But then when the color started seeping in at first it was like, Oh gosh this is so scary. This is limiting, right? Yeah. And then when you realize there's endless potential, so like I think like what I'm hearing you say is like, what a bizarre feeling to bring divorce on the table and just a mature and like healthy option for like this sake of survival with like the mental health and the trauma that comes from like detaching from such a in Baptist, right? It's a very radical, you marry in the Baptist church, you meet people through the church. There really isn't much choice, right? And so it sounds like one of the things we were taught, like to a T was that the only reason why romantic relationships work out is because God's in between. You actually, if you just rely on each other's feelings, you're going to kill each other. You're going to hate each other. You end up in divorce. So it has to be this God. And so it sounds like what I'm, what's so beautiful, like the picture I'm feeling is like so many different things. It's like if, you know, like you have your version of God or the infinite or whatever, which the beloved, which I'm also like healing and accepting more of everyone's version of that on my own. Um, but if you take this sort of like man, if you will, like structure, that's just such a toxic masculine approach to everything that's due with life. There's like, it really is like you have to look in the mirror first, right? And that's like, you have to marry yourself almost, right? Which is like learning how to make your own choices based on your own feelings. And then you see him and you're like, Oh damn, that's who you are. And like, so we've seen a lot of relationships that like the divorce does happen because it's kind of, it's sad, right? Because it's like, Oh, I would have never been with you if I knew who I really was outside of this. And sometimes like there's partners that are just like that love is real from the jump, you know? And like, I guess what am I trying to say? It's like not like the love isn't there for most couples. It's just this process of deconstructing is so there's so much suffering that comes apart of that healing and we're lucky to have a partner that's like by our side. You know, that's how I feel with my wife is I like, since we got together, I really, I thought I was like free from the church and 16 and then like I butchered every relationship before that and was a wild card. And then like I met somebody that like just made me feel seen and also like, Hey, by the way, you're crazy and you have some issues and I ain't going anywhere. So figure your shit out. And I'm like, cause most people, I think, you know, like in my experience was like, I pushed them out. And I showed them a side of me where they're like, damn, like you got some shit over and like, it's true. And it's that fear of abandonment, your ban, all of it. And like, so when you like find somebody that's just kind of like, you know what, I'll try this a little bit longer with you. You're like, yeah, cause it's not like perfect relationships aren't perfect. But you need that sacrifice in a relationship. You need someone that's going to be like, I'll still fight for you. You don't have to be perfect, but you better be working on yourself in some sort of way. Yeah. I think that's a huge part of that. But I think like black and white, if you have Jesus instead, then you don't really need to be worrying about too much like that. All that suppressed shit from your childhood or that other accountable. If Jesus can always be in between, there's no accountability. Take the company off me. And that's like such a huge deny yourself. Yeah. Right. Well, and that's so much like what me and Dylan have had to like work through. Cause it's like all those things of denying yourself, sacrificing yourself. But it's like, what I've experienced for myself is I couldn't fully love anybody. And this is such a, this might sound a bit cliche, but I couldn't fully love anybody until I learned how to love myself. And how do you know how to love yourself if you don't even know who you are? Right. And so it's like looking in and going, yeah, you know, Ooh, there's some hard parts to kind of get around. And, um, but it's like, I just so wish that I grew up in a home where my parents knew who they were so they could have fostered who I really was. Right. And so it's like it, I guess just from my experience, looking in that mirror, seeing who I am and not having it be, Oh, like, I'm just, you know, a child of God, or I'm just, you know, all these titles that I feel like I had to wear for so long. It's like, no, I'm just Shay. And I was created this way. And, um, and you're perfect the way you are. Yes. And I'm worthy and I'm loved how I am. And I think that's too, why it made it, you know, putting divorce on the table or like talking about it as an option. It's like, if, if the worst thing were to happen in our relationship and Dylan said, you stuck, I don't want to be with you anymore, but you would never say cause he's a really cool guy. But, um, you know, and he left, it was dealing with, um, I had attached so much of my worth onto our relationship where there was a point where if that would have happened, I would have just been over. Like I just would have been crumbled. Cause it's like so much of my identity was being his wife. And, um, and then it's going, no, like if that were to happen, like love can exist in a lot of different ways. And I feel like that would be such a loving thing if we knew we weren't happy and we weren't compatible anymore, even in divorce, I feel like there can be so much love in that. Not always. And that's not often what we see, but it's like, I think it is possible. But I think people, what I've seen is people get to the point of kind of no return where they're just like so resentful hate the other person because they've denied themselves for so long and don't know who they are. And then it turns into just a mess cause it's like, how can it not, you know? And the self is so important. And something you said earlier is the religion, holds you back from being you. And I think that's like such a big part of deconstructing is finding who that you, who that self is like almost like relearning your intuition. And then you bring that into the relationship and either the relationship, like you said, doesn't last or you both kind of grow through with it. Yeah. Yeah. And that's something I've all, that's always been a huge piece of me is that intuition. And I've always just had a really solid gut, like where I've just been able to rely on that. And you know how we were, how I was taught is like, Oh no, that's the Holy Spirit. Yeah. And you know, again, I think different names can apply for similar things or the same thing. So but yeah, it's been really fun like going, Oh, like I can listen to this. Cause again, how we were taught to even just in our dynamic, it's like you can't trust your body at all because it'll deceive you. And that's, what's so interesting too. I'm in a phase now of just kind of exploring more of like sexuality and like what that means for me as a woman and all of that. And it's just so interesting how I feel like the church, like hyper-sexualized everything for me, like, yeah, God's a creep. Yeah. Right. It's like, if you masturbate, God's watching. Weird. If you really think about it. Right. Yeah. And so even that of like learning to appreciate my body in a holistic way has been so cool. And so I think that's why like it just happened after having surgery. Cause it just forced me to be present with like how my body was and call it like baby giraffe syndrome in the beginning of just like so clunky and like, I don't know how, like, how does this work? And but yeah, it's just felt really nice to lean on that intuition and just be who I am in any environment. And I really tried, well, I don't really try anymore. That's the funny thing. It's like before I was so like, I put myself in the, in the situation of coming to a podcast like this two years ago, I would have been so nervous. So in my head, would have had tons of notes down and not saying anything's wrong with that, but I just would have been so in my head about it of needing to perform, needing to show up a certain way. And it's just, it's cool like in situations like these where I can see, Oh my gosh, no, like I came in just relaxed. I knew it would be a good time and it was just going to be what it was going to be. And just living in that like peace and, um, ease is like, Oh, so nice. Like I just finally feel rested for the first time is like the best way to say where it's just like, Oh, I don't have to worry about doing anything at all. Or being perfect. No, there's that hyper perfectionism. And I feel like everyone that deconstructs has to go through. You don't have to be absolutely perfect in everything you do. And it's uncomfortable for people when you are like, that's the thing I've found too. It's like, nope, floating Hannah Montana. Now nobody's perfect. Got to work it. No, but it's true. And I know like I used to think I had to show up in that way and then like talking with people who are still close in my life, they're like, dude, we felt really uncomfortable around you when you would do that. Cause just that's this weird like energy and high expectation and like, no, the beauty's in the mess, the beauty's in like the clunkiness of it and trying to sort it out. And that's like the fun part and horrible part at the same time too. Yeah. I think I'm like, God's in it all. God is in everything. Like one of the episode responding to how eloquently you're speaking of your story is beautiful by the way, but like reflecting back at you two episodes ago. Yeah. Like one of, I went on a plant medicine retreat recently and one of the, before the retreat and then after the retreat, one of my new mantras, I was like driving to work or just like looking at a tree. I'll be like, I am God. You are God. Like it's not new. We are God. It feels like it's always a rebirth. Life is always a rebirth. Like one of the things you also said is, you know, like you don't know that much and that's an amazing feeling. I'm just like so in love with that feeling too. You know, like being born a white man, you know, like this world was kind of set up for me and learning that, that that's how things have been set up and my victimization in through my trauma and like, like nobody understands me and all of these things and like how easy it's really kind of been for my, like the privilege, you know, has been absolutely insane to like, wake up to, if you will. I forget where I was going with that. Like the beginning of that statement, the, I am God. We are God. Oh yeah. Like, and I don't like, I always knew what was up and be like, nobody understands me. And I know that for a fact, I know that I'm hurting cause you did this to me. And I feel like the, the deconstruction from radical religion referred in this case, Christianity, right. Is like, dude, I don't know anything that is God. Not knowing anything is where God, like God's in between. Like mother Teresa said, you know, God's in between the pots and the pans. And like, I, I've said this before too, that like, as like in my situation, like becoming more aware of how, like for most of eternity, women have like ran the world, right. Buried the bodies clean, like in the church, like who cleaned Jesus's dead whole body, right. It was mother Mary and like, but that's not what the story's about. The story's about this man figure found his body when it was being risen as a woman, right? There's so many women in the Bible that are just not even really accounted for. And so my point just being that like becoming aware of my situation and how the world perceives me in the kind of the pocket, the church filters of sin, right. Men are the pastors and women do all the backup work or whatever. Right. And becoming aware of that, it's like, damn, I don't know anything. I've been like, I was like funneled into this sort of tunnel vision way of life. And I feel like now it's like this whole new world, even though I've been out of the church since I was 15 or like not a Christian since I was like 15, 16. Becoming aware of self is hard ass work. And I like totally agree that if you do the work, which is like yours was like physical surgery, right? Like you can go and do psychedelics, you can go to a therapist. There's all these different ways. I don't think it's ever one thing, but having true self-awareness is so relieving and so scary and so like vulnerable. So that inner child, you know, and then like I always like the where I'm at in my self-awareness is a lot of my reflections of the hardship or the chaos is like kind of that 17 year old side of me because I've spent so many years kind of coddling the eight year old. And so there's like stages and it's a process and I feel like this will probably go on forever, but like the more you stick with it, the less, you know, like the more, you know, the less, you know, like the more freeing and less pressure, right. Shoulders can come down and be like, nah dude, we're all just, you know, like bags of blood and guts at the end of the day. Saggy skin on bones. Also taking away just like that, that knowledge of everything. I feel like being raised as a Christian, we had it all figured out. I always thought, I know the truth since birth. I'm so privileged. Like I know everything and you don't. Yeah. These poor people, I have to save them. But just taking that off your shoulders of like, I don't know much. I have a lot to learn. I'm going to keep learning. It's like so much easier to live. It's like, bro, you don't know shit. There's this new world out there. There's like millions of religions and so many planets and weird shit. Yeah. Well, that's, yeah. That's why like I've created like my platforms to be, grow with Shay. Cause I've, I've said this before. It's like when I stopped growing and learning new things, like that's just when I want to be dead. Like truly, I mean that, like where if I get to the point of just digging in my heels and just saying, Oh yeah, I know everything. And like I don't need to hear anybody else's perspectives. Like I don't want to be here anymore. Yeah. Boring. But I've had experiences with that with people. Gross. Could you imagine being so boring? No, curiosity is, is like evolution. We've said this, I forget what guess it was, but it was like one of the things we were talking a lot about is how like evolutionary, just like the concept of curiosity as a human being is, the more curious we are as individuals, like not only is that freeing, but it like opens your eyes to just like how endless life and death is happening in every part of life, you know, in the gardens and the trees in life, humans are constantly being, and you kind of come where it's like overwhelming. Yeah. It is. Yeah. And you suppose just receive it. I think that's what sounded like innocent about kids is that you're just receiving as a kid. Yeah. They got it figured out. Like there's so much we can learn from them. Don't worry about that till you teach me the wrong ways to deal with it. Exactly. Yeah. And that's what's so cool about just, I use the word intuitively a lot, like living in more of an intuitive way. It's like, we're born to be that way. It's just a lot of stuff that kind of fucks it up in the, in the meantime. Which I'm kind of like curious how the Baptist church fucked up your experience as a woman. Like getting married so young, you know, and I mean like, cause we're talking a lot about like this amazing healing and growth and like where we're at now. Yeah. What was, what was Los Angeles Baptist? Yeah, I know. It's so funny. I was like reflecting on that. And it was so weird because like living in a place like Los Angeles, there's a lot more diversity there, like in comparison to other parts of the world. And yet the religious piece was still Baptist. Like it was still very, you know, black and white, you know, no dancing, you know, like just rules. Right. And that's what was so confusing to me. Cause it was like, okay, at my church and I went to a Christian school all my life too. So like, um, all the way from you're like, cut, copy, paste. Here we go. Yeah. I know. Yeah. No, from kindergarten to my senior year of high school, I've always gone to a Christian school and it was so confusing though. Cause it's like here you see like in more of your environment, like people being open and you know, lots of different, you know, diversity and stuff. But then it's like, no, but this one religion is the right way. The only way. And, and, um, yeah, I just feel like I missed out on meeting so many cool people as a kid because it was like, it was very siloed into, you know, people outside of the religion are scary and bad and yeah. Yeah. And for me, I've always been a very curious person. I've always loved people. That was just so hard because it was like whenever I would meet new people, that would be like on the forefront of my mind of like, how do I like figure out if they're a Christian or not? And like, how do I preach to them? And like, in like a way that they'll receive it, like there was just so much pressure, so much pressure to be everybody's everything of like, you know, I'm the reason that they're not going to heaven, you know, it's, and so I think you, you know, having that pressure on me, it just expanded to every other part of my life as I grew up. Right. So it's like, I'm responsible for everybody else's feelings, emotions. If they're mad at me, it's obviously because I'm a horrible human being and I think that's where a lot of that not knowing my worth came from. Cause it's like it was so easily shattered anytime someone disagreed with me. And you know, I was primed cause I was a people pleaser, other like family trauma, you know, like always plays a role in that as well. But it was like just that way of thinking, infiltrated all of my life to where I feel like I got out pretty lucky where like, I'm thankful that I didn't marry somebody who was like abusive and like where I felt that need to people please. Cause like if it was, I just could have seen my self falling into a lot of different scenarios where I feel like I got really lucky landing where I did. Um, but yeah, it's just that way of thinking that, um, would you say it's like a victimization, those feelings when you were younger or like growing up in the church, like preaching to somebody and then they'd be like, screw you Christian. Not so much. Um, or I didn't take it that way. Um, it was more of like, um, more personal than that. Yeah. Like I'm a horrible person. Like I took it more internally, I think of like my identity. And I think it's also maybe to being a woman growing up in the church like that too. So much pressure on keeping your bodies pure, you know, like, um, so it didn't show up like, Oh, I'm a victim in that sense. It was more of like just so much pressure to perform and show up a certain way. Um, like the, it's interesting cause I was thinking that because in my experience and I know Zach relates a lot cause we've talked about it from 50 episodes, um, that, uh, that's the connection I've made with our podcast, meeting women for, and like, that's what we put on blast here. That's why we changed the name of our podcast was because of this like insane pressure on gender and like how that's affected in religion and radical religion, but that like men, and I'm not like trying to like make this like a just like a scientific statement, but it's just like, my experience was men typically were victims. You're like, how dare you come against me and my beliefs. Now I'm going to reflect an anger or sort of intensity. Yeah. Whereas like the woman's experience has been, was so opposite, you know, like, I don't know. Yeah. It's like, it's, it's, um, yeah. Cause me and Dylan talk about that a lot just cause like our experiences are, are different. I feel like it, see it from my perspective, it's almost like a lot of men are hyper sexualized and like, and, um, so are like objectified in that way and like kind of told like, Oh yeah, the only thing that your body ever wants to do is like, have sex. So like, you gotta be careful of that. Like that's what they teach you growing up always brings up that story of the pastor that was like on the stage looking at all of you guys at that men's or that boys tree. Yeah. It's like 11 or 12 and you're horny mice. All of you are horny mice. And it's like, I'm in the back of my head, I'm like, yeah, but are we all terrified of sex? What are you talking about? Like, well, and I think those are the kind of categories you fall into either you kind of go in that rebellious of like, I'm just going to reject this all or it's kind of that people pleaser like, Oh no, like I'm like, I don't know if that's what you're saying, but like, yeah, totally. I was more of the people pleaser of like, okay, I'm going to follow all the rules. Like if you say I'm a horny mice, I'm a horny mouse and I'm going to be really careful. Like it was like, and so I think that's how I took it more. It was like just taking everything that they said as like, this is who I am. Yes. There was no question. When people would be like, don't masturbate. Like it's a sin. I'd be like, that's all I'm doing. Yeah, I know. I can't stop. So it'd be like, I'm addicted. It was always like, I can't, like I was, my response was always like aggressive. It was always like tell me not to do that. And at some point I was like, I have to do that. Yeah. Because you've told me that you're supposed to do that. Well, you, you say it enough times and it's like you're brainwashing people that this is the only way you can be, and this is who you are. Like, that's like self fulfilling prophecy. Like that is going to happen over time. And it's not to take, um, I also want to be careful. I don't want it to be like victim blaming in that way or like, um, like saying that, Oh, it's not their fault. If someone, you know, causes sexual harassment or like, you know, there's lots of things wrong with that. But yeah, it's just like when you hear that for your whole life and you think, Oh, that is the truth. So everything this person says is the truth. Then I just took it more like internally that way. That's really interesting. Everything being the truth in the church was like a really big thing for me because then no matter who is saying anything, if they're Christian, it must be true. Yes. And these are people that like just got off meth two years ago and they have their lives figured out and they're telling me a 13 year old boy how to be sexual or not be sexual. And I'm like, we're going to John. Yeah. We're like, I'm going to keep going on my life. And that's fact now. It's like everything is perfect in the church. Yes. That's such a good point. And that's what I think is so hard and sad to watch. Cause it's like, I, you know, I have my master's degree in psychology, so I've done formal education in that way of like, Oh my gosh, it's just the, the church is such a prime place for like predators to be in. And just be, and like you said, like people just that shouldn't be giving advice like, and it's, and no judgment on like past stuff, but it's like, if you're showing up and I think the church does this a lot, you're showing up in people's lives in a therapist type of way. Like, Ooh, that is really bad. That's really damaging and scary. We grew up and there was, I'm thinking about them right now. Um, uh, they were like somebody that was in and out of prison, which I know the prison system's really fucked up, but this was like a guy that was in and out constantly. And whenever he'd come out, he would like be back in church and then he'd end up being like a leader. And then it's something bad would happen to be like, where, where, where is he to be like, Oh, he's, did you hear he's back in prison? But it's not his fault. And then like later down the road you're like, Oh, it was always his fault. He was like, you know, like doesn't everybody have like an uncle who'd like, that's their story. Like I feel like that's like everybody has an uncle. Yeah. And it's so it's true. I know who you're talking about. And it's like, I like the person they're wonderful. He was a really sweet dude. I mean, nobody's, I mean, he's the most real person. I think that's why they ended up in jail because it wasn't like the church was facilitating their addictions or their rage or their masculinity. It was more of like, Hey, here's a stage. Why don't you go tell 12 year olds not to masturbate and then go deal with your own shit out of it. Don't want to talk about your meth addiction. It's just people looking for community. It's like people desperate for just community and they can't get off drugs and they can't stop breaking the law. And so they find Christianity and it's like, you, you're welcome here. And also you're a male, so you have power. Yeah. And that's scary. Yeah. No, they give the, they give guys a lot of power. Whereas like there were certain women, you know, that like we had certain growing up in our experience, women like mental health, you know, like there's, we all, we're all on the spectrum in some form, but this was like people that were bipolar, right? That were like counselors in the youth group. And it was like at a young age being like, we all kind of, without saying words, all the kids knew like, yeah, but that leader or that counselors, just something's something God isn't working in their life. They must not be doing something. Right. Right. Yeah. It's like, yeah. And so it's just not a, it's not a place that gives you much more potential or options outside of the way of Jesus. Right. Or just praying about it and keep getting involved in the church, keep getting involved. And God forbid, somebody finds something that they discover that's outside of Jesus that helps them, you know, heal. At least that's like how it was at Calvary Chapel, right? Like in ours, it was so radical, but it was presented as such a cool and like, anyone's welcome. But with these stipulations, if you're gay, which by the way, happy pride, it's June 1st. And I don't think our episode's coming out in June cause we're, no, we are stocked up. This won't be coming out until early June 1st pride here. Going to church it was like, happy pride, get the fuck out of here. We celebrate the rainbow of Noah's Ark. Well played. Yeah. And only if you're part of Noah's family, are you allowed on this ship? That's a funny story, right? We've said this before on the podcast, like being part of Noah's family and you're on that ship. Could you like imagine like in the ocean, there's just like so much decay and death floating around and you're just like, damn, God really only saved us. That's so special. Talk about pressure. The God of love. Just death seeping out of the water as earth just dies around you. I don't know. You'll get a drink with your sister. I don't think this story is real. Anyways. We've had many therapists on this podcast. And to clarify, I'm not a therapist. Did you get that at Christian school or was that at a regular university? So ironically, so I so after graduating from my Christian school out of high school, I went to a very liberal arts college, like complete opposite. And that's where I got my undergrad in psych and then I got my masters in psych online, but it actually was through a Christian university. It was a grand canyon university. Yeah. I tried to get me to, oh yeah. She keeps emailing me for two years. I'm like, please leave me. Yeah. So I did, but like it was online. So what I wasn't like seeped in the culture of that. So it's like I did, but I don't really count it, you know, in that way. But um, that's just so interesting. I'm never like, they're always at the hospital. Oh, okay. Yeah. You know, rep or whatever. They're setting up at a table and you're getting your lunch and they're always like, do you want to advance your degree? Yeah. Leave me alone. It's the evangelical way of doing things. I had no idea, but because the brand doesn't, yeah, it doesn't like allude to it. But yeah, I definitely had like an intro to spirit and religion. I had like, I definitely had like a religious class I had to take as far as I went to USF, which is a Jesuit tradition school and there was priests there called priests that would always like drive up in there like eight series BMWs and Mercedes. And you're like getting out the huge robe. Did you like so rich? Yeah, I get it. Yeah. Coming straight from the system. Yeah. Yeah. Just like, Hey, what's up bro? I'm like, what's up man? What's up? Nice to see you Pope. Yeah. That's Jesuits. Sorry. We're in like a leather jacket with Dr. Pope on the, so yeah. Grand Canyon university. You got your master's in psychology. You don't consider yourself a therapist. We in our show also don't have answers. That's like one of the things that we, nobody does actually, but it's just like, I think that what is fascinating though about our podcast that now has these stories of people who have like come on to share is that there's a lot of answers in the stories. You don't even have like not having the answer is the answer, right? And I feel like vulnerable, there's, there's one of our answers can be authentic conversations, vulnerability, like real vulnerability. Well, what's it feel like to be funneled as a man into this like very permanent way of sexual way of being, you know, and how putting women on a pedestal, how does that shape your toxic masculinity? Let's talk about that shit or how, like, you know, was it like as a woman being hyper sexualized, you know, and having to wear shirts if you were too developed, you know, at a young age and like we had a guest on that, she shared her whole story of sexual abuse in the church and how like she'd go to leaders and they would do nothing about it. And it was her fault, her fault. And I think like, there's answers in that story that you don't need to know. You just can like hear that and be like, come on, let's really talk about this shit. You know? And that's what I think. I just get fired up and I just makes me so sad and angry that it's like, it's one thing to come out of that and heal and like out of all of us for doing that. I hate that that's still going on and it's, and it's normalized like, and I think that's what I just, I'm still trying to figure out like how to fit into that and help because it's like, it's not like this is something that happened a long time ago and it's like, Oh yeah, that was a crazy time. Like we don't do things that way anymore. It does when you're out of it. But it's like, I'll see like just situations with people that we come in contact with where, you know, they're very much involved in the church. And to clarify too, it doesn't always have to be, or trauma doesn't always happen just in the church. Right. But I just tend to see that overlap and I think it also just kind of hits and triggers when I see it coming from more of like a religious family, like the way that they talk to their kids or like what they do. It's just like, it's like I'm, it's hard to watch trauma in the making and like know what to do. And it's like, it's not my place to say, don't do that. You know, but it's like, it's just, it's so, I, it's so sad and hard and I feel that. It's really hard not to say things now. I find myself, I also don't really associate with Christians as much. Yeah. And my whole friend group is like, so not Christian anymore. But anytime, yeah, you see it here about or around it. Like, oh, I can't believe we're still doing this. I thought we graduated, but we haven't. Dylan and I talk about that a lot cause like we're really lucky where we've been able to have, like we weren't integrated into church. Like we weren't, like we grew up really religious. But then after we got married, we kind of started separating, like we weren't integrated in a church. And so, and our family we have enough distance with or they're not believers, some of them. And so we've had that time to kind of like separate out. It's not like we lost a huge community to making this choice, which is really nice. But like, you know, in our area, we still have a lot of people who are religious or people we work with or whatever. And we'll say that too. Like it's so interesting being on the other side of like hearing somebody talk and they almost like assume you believe the same thing or like that they're Christians too. And then it's weird being on the other side of like, oh yeah, before when I was in that religion where I would have been like, oh yeah, I totally agree. And then now being on the other side, it's like, whoa, that's so foreign. I forget people like believe that, you know, it's like, oh, interesting. And so it's just weird, um, making that transition. But it, but I have found that it's like, now that I've learned who I am, I've lost relationships along the way. And then I've gained a lot more in time too, where it's just like, oh yeah, these are just more of my people now. These are the people that like I feel more aligned with more safe with. And, um, so I think over time you can build that community, but I also want to acknowledge to you that it is so scary, um, to start doing that and to ask questions. And it's just, it's a really scary process. And I understand why people don't do it. And I think sometimes I can be a bit judgmental of like, why are they doing that to their kids? Or why are they trusting, you know, like, why are they saying that? And, um, Dylan pointed out last night, we were actually talking about this where he was like, yeah, but like if we had had kids right when we were planning to, we were still in that cycle and we probably would have like, okay, yeah, I guess the next right thing is to go to church and raise them that way. And then he's like, and then if we were kind of in the place we were now and we had, you know, five year old, eight year old, whatever, and we had to make the choice of like, this is our whole community, but I don't know if I believe in that anymore. We're kind of this far in, should we just kind of keep going? Cause there's a lot of structure and safety and community in that. And it was just a good perspective. Cause I'm like, Oh, that's so true. Like that easily could have been where I was at. Um, if we had had kids, like when we planned on it, there's just so many things involved. And so it's a lot easier, I think for people like us where we weren't super integrated in a church, we had more of that space and room to really think about what we feel and what we believe in. It's not like we had as much to lose in comparison to other people. And so I, I think I just want to try to remember that too because I can just get really frustrated and judgmental at times where it's like, what are you doing to your kids? How could you not with what you went through? Yeah. Like not having any sense of self. Like I have my son, you know, my wonderful wife is here to help raise with me and we get him every other week and it's, I've, you know, and his he's been split between two families and his other family is, they're hyper religious. And then his grandparents, of course being our parents or pastors. And then the grandparents of the other family too. They're all, yeah. And I, if always, I would feel that so much. I knew in the moment, like his five year old self or six year old self would say things that were so what I like, it was like watching myself in a mirror as a kid and that innocence of like not really having any sort of understanding of hellfire yet or this idea of like dying in hell or at least like you're not conceptualizing it, your body's definitely taking it in. And I'm seeing him have similar like fears of certain types of movies. Like we're like certain psychological movies that aren't even that scary, but like make his mind go so wild probably because there's like, it's reflecting that sort of pressure of hell or heaven or one way or the highway, black and white. And so for like Megan and I, what's been so hard of our healing with the kid has been like one step a little bit ahead. Like every time that I've reflected that fear, that's like, no son, don't go to the dark side. We talk about it and it's like, wait a minute, that exact feeling that I have right now for him and being like hyper religious or radicalized, um, as like a tiny white boy, you know, like in this culture that I would just hate to see is exactly what our parents were feeling in the eighties and nineties they were just doing. And so like so much of this podcast and other people's stories and my own personal growth has been to let all this off the hook because and like, but at the same time, like as I let them go and I let them, I see them as just like doing their best at what they found. I do think radical radicalism, if it's in religion or if it's in capitalism or any form of like radicalism is a disease in and of itself. And if you get caught up in that disease or you catch that illness at a young age, like you said, you can just that generational religious drama can just be like thrown right in over the course of like 10 to 15 years. And then that kid is, you know, if it doesn't ever change. And so I feel like what I would hope is that like for Evan, like my son is within my healing. I've been able to let go of it and I'm not as scared anymore for him. I'm kind of like, you know, I like being able to heal on my own is being able to let everybody go, even my own son, because he's just a person. And one of the things that really shaped me was my parents ways of being like over the top zealots on how this world is awful. And so most of the time he'll say things like, isn't that bad? And I'll be like, no, it's good. You know? And it's like an opera. There's so much opportunity for him to like bring a certain view that he's being given and then we can reflect so much of the healing. That's kind of like, yeah, I get it. Like that's like one way. And then there's like endless ways and not a thing. It's not about right or wrong. Right. So that, yeah. And so I, I really understand. And I think that like, you were also touching on how like there's like a bigger culture here, right? Like we have the individual experience, but what is really happening when you tell people to deny themselves, you know, they, you start to like, and the histories are all screwed up, right? There was like, we never knew what the Christian church and the history of the Christian church really was colonialism, you know, slavery, racism, how everything in this country, you know, like demolishing whole colonies of people in the name of Jesus. Right. Because I think we're seeing that in our own world right now. There's like a culture of radicalism. And in I know that Christianity is spread wide and large in our world, but you know, we were raised in white radical Christianity and to become aware of how much we were culprits as kids. Right. And we weren't making our own choices really. We're just following the path. And I think like I didn't even become aware of how much this ripples into all of history and how like these, the sexism and the toxic masculinity. I think I feel that all the time where it's kind of like, if I see families in our parents' church, you have these kids, you know, these young kids and it's kind of like, I like would love for them to not be in that situation. But I was like, as I've been able to heal and do this podcast, it's kind of like, at least there's finally an internet and an opportunity for there to be stories that are being shared. Cause I never heard a single story like this growing up. There was no even access. So I feel like there's all this fear of like technology and AI. But for me, I feel like there's, it's actually kind of exciting to see that finally we can get people's stories out because this has probably been going on religious trauma and healing and deconstruction. When you look at the sixties, right? And like all these times our countries have had, and they've all been perceived a certain way in this sort of culture, this really sort of like colonizer, white power. And I saw me, I get really sad of like what's going on in the world in the name of religion and radicalism and feel kind of helpless and senseless at times. And I think that is a part of our human experience that we don't have control over. And some people feel their job is to like be dead center on that work, getting to child psychology. And we had like Julia on, who's like, yeah, she's awesome. That's how I got connected to you guys because she's part of the bariatric community. And like, you know, she's like going headstrong into masters and doing like research on religious trauma. She's going headstrong into PhD. Yeah. And so like, she's going to change the world, you know, and I never in a million years thought that we would have a podcast. I never wanted to do this right to like, we were DJs, we were like wanting to be rock stars. And then like, but then we learned that that was a huge part of our religious trauma, like that need to be on a stage and we had the right music or the right path. And so then here we are like kind of weekly or biweekly talking about some really, not necessarily always, but not always what it is perceived to be the colorful story, but in reality, really, this is all the colors, you know? Well, and it's that way of thinking of like, I have to be the one to solve it all, right? Like that. And I know you, I've heard you guys talk about that on the show before too, but it's that way of thinking that comes a lot of times when you're in a fundamental religion of like, it's on me to do it all for everybody else. And I think that's, what's been so freeing about this journey. Of sharing my own story. It's like, I've been able to let go of that. And, before I used to just be so in my head about like what I, how I could help and change and like I'd get or change everybody else. And I'd just feel so much pressure and it's like, and just, it feels very overwhelming, right? Because like if you have an empathic heart, which many humans do, it's like you see all these things and it's like, I want to change everything and make everything better. And I think part of what I was taught and the religion I grew up in is like, you can, and that is on you to do that. And then it's stepping back and going, I'm only one person. Like not that I can't make big changes, but it's not gonna, for me and my journey, it's not going to be in those types of ways. And so it's like, that's when I get kind of overwhelmed and kind of stressed out of like, there's so much things, so many bad things that I wish could be different. And it's like, okay, but how can I actually make a difference? And it's like, for me, it's just being who I was created to be, sharing that when it feels like it's the right time to share that with people. And then just like being open to receive that from other people. And it's like, that's all that I feel called and led to do. And not all, that's a big job too, but it's like that, that's nice. Like, and then it's like, I can relax cause it's like that's more in the realm of my nature and who I've always been to. It's like, I'm not trying to force myself to do all these big things or I see them as big things. It's like, no. And I also don't want to, like sharing your story is a big thing too, but I don't have to be part of this big nonprofit group that does all this stuff to make an impact. Like there's a lot that if we just start sharing our stories and receive those kindly from other people, there's so much that I've, so much growth and healing I've seen in that process just in the last two years for myself and a lot of other people too. So it's like it obviously makes a difference in some way, you know, but it's easy to get lost in the, for me, the overwhelm of it going, ah, there's so much to do in so little time. But again, I think that was very much part of the religion I grew up in that trained that way of thinking. Yeah. Cause this world is a evil world full of sin. And so one of the things, the triggering statements we grew up with, maybe you were too in the Baptist church, which is be in the world, but not of the world. Oh, class, you know, the stickers, you guys know which ones I'm talking about, right? You see on the back of cars. Yeah. The Jesus fish. I remember always seeing the Jesus fish that was, had legs and I was like, they believe in evolution. Oh, is that what that means? It was like people that are winning and I remember being like, wow, that fish has legs. They're evil. I remember, I was like, actually that's real. The first car I was able to drive was our little Honda and it had a Jesus fish on it. You mean the one that we would like fast and the furious with? That's you. Oh, I did. We all did that. But I had a Jesus fish on it. And when I got it, I just, I ripped the Jesus fish off before you even like, actually, yeah, it's like 15. I was like, I don't want to rip the fish off. But that, but the outline of it was there forever. Oh, it was like freaked mom out. Yeah. Yeah. Mom was scared a lot of the time. Let's talk about your family. Yeah. If you're open to that. Yeah, definitely. It's always a hard thing and I've, it's been really cool to watch how you guys have done that because it's hard to know how much to share. That's not my story. Right. But when so much of it overlaps, it's hard not to. But yeah, you know, I, so I grew up in Los Angeles. My, um, parents got divorced when I was, I was like six or seven. Um, my dad had a lot of issues with drugs and he's okay with me sharing that. Cause he's really open about that. Um, so he wasn't part of my life for from like 13 till 23. Um, and yeah, there's just been a lot of, um, things that I've learned about just trauma and how I grew up and there's a lot of shitty things that happened. And, um, really that's why I got into psychology. I was going to do nursing for a while. Um, had my first A&P class and I'm like, I don't know if I want to do this. Um, Oh, anatomy and physiology. I thought I was saying it cause I thought you'd, honestly, I would have like a while ago. It's just been a while like A&P. That's right. I forgot that. That's what we said. Yeah. Yeah. Anatomy physio micro. Yeah. It was like the lead up. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Um, so I was already getting my undergrad or, uh, I was getting a minor in psych and then I ended up just switching over to that, but it was like, Oh my gosh, they have like names for these childhood traumas that I grew up experiencing. And like, I'm not this crazy person like this, it makes sense. And so at that point I got really fascinated with, um, adverse childhood experiences. Have you, are you guys familiar with that at all? Um, and just learning how trauma as a kid really affects you into adulthood. And so, um, yeah, so I am an only child too. So it's always just been me. Um, luckily though cause I met my husband when we were 15 and 16, we have, or he has a little brother, so he's always like been my brother too. Um, but yeah, so, uh, there was just a lot of codependency, um, dynamics growing up how I did. Um, and in this journey it's been really difficult to break away from that and know like what boundaries to have in place with different people. And so, um, I don't have a great relationship with all of my family members. Again, I try to keep it broad, but, um, which is that, that's not like ideally what I want, but it got to a point where it's like, I'm, I'm not going to sacrifice myself anymore. Um, cause really you have, you have to be the one to decide if you want to heal from things getting there. You can't do it alone, but if you dig your heels in and you say, I like how I am, I don't want to change who I am anymore and deal with it. It's like, that's not going to work for me then, you know? So unfortunately with like some family members, I don't have a great relationship with anymore because, um, I am a very deep person. I like to have deep relationships and deep connections and I faked it for a lot of my life growing up and I just can't do that anymore. And so, um, yeah, it's unfortunate. I wish it was different with certain people. It was, was it the deconstruction that pulled the relationship? No, honestly it was my surgery that was the catalyst. Yeah. Um, it wasn't so much about the deconstruction, but like it was, um, cause luckily like with our families there, some of them are a bit more religious than others, but it's never been like, sounds like more like your guys's situations where we had like a pastor is like a family member. We don't have that type of thing. Um, but really it was what I noticed the common theme was that when I started to realize that I was a worthy human being, it just kind of enhanced relationships and brought out what was already there. So like with certain relationships, it just became clear very quickly, like, Oh, they just use me and don't really care about me as a person. Unfortunately. Um, and then with other people, it's brought me really close to them, but it's really a painful experience when it's like your family that are the people that like don't really love you for who you are. Like, tell me about it. Yeah. No, that's sorry. That's so hard. No, we're sorry too. It's part of it, I feel. But what's amazing about our podcast is like me and Zach had talked in live time about like on the camera about what it's like for like me setting up boundaries or like him in the act of like, we've had very different experiences with our family and how this looks. And so I, I think like setting boundaries was never meant to be easy. Yeah, it is. And it's, it's hard when it's like the boundary for me with family members with some of them is like, I like can't even be around you or talk to you. It sucks. But we've met people that like you take, everyone takes a different approach. Like we still have a, I like to consider it, like I still have a relationship with my parents and it's, I'm surprised that I still do with the amount of like situations I've thought of. And I think that like to each their own, I'm like, I've learned so much through this cast. Like I've learned from others being like, damn, like you haven't talked to your dad or your mother in five years. I'm so sorry. And they're like, yeah, it sucks, but I'm better off for it. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's actually absolutely 100% true. And I think like we all have to discover what like this sort of like, I don't know, I guess you can call it repetitive trauma, right. Or it's just like in families, we didn't choose these people. And I think that's what socks on is painful is like when it's your family that you're like, Oh, you like don't get me at all. Which I know that's like a common thing, but like people like parents, I think especially like moms and dads when it's like, dang, like that's like, those are the two people that I would love to have like a deep and meaningful relationship with. And then when you realize like they're just not my people and I just don't think that like, like if it was any other situation and I just was around them as a stranger, it's like, we just wouldn't be compatible. We don't have like this, like we're not aligned on literally anything to where it's like, there's no common ground. It's like, what do you do with that? And then on top of that, if you have abuse coming at you or like, you know, toxic traits or things that are coming at you, it's like, okay, my options here are like to not talk at all or to just kind of put up with it. And it's like, I'm done putting up with that now. So. It's also good for you. It's hard and a relief too, though. It's both. Yeah. Both wrapped in one. Yeah. I was doing this podcast is a huge strain in our relationship with our parents. Yeah. I bet. It's added a new level of weight that we've never had before, but it's not like there hasn't been insane stress and abuse or like uncommon ground and rocky edges forever. Yeah. In fact, because there's more honesty on the table, you know, it's like there's a line that's been drawn. Yeah. And I like how when you were talking, I got in the same way. It's really hard for me. I think like to have superficial relationships and I think there's like an expectation with family that we're supposed to be the closest ever, but like our parents are the same way. They don't do well with superficial relationships. They like raised us with this insane over the top amount of communication and closeness and every little issue or problem or thing you did, we're going to have an hour conversation that's about God and the human experience. And so that's, it's like we, I feel the same way. I'm like, that's what I want from my relationships. And I know that not everyone can give that. And, but I, our parents, like they like need that. We need that and there's just this radical religious thought, you know, that is like, the question is right now for us, like are we ever going to be able to get to a place of like real maturity and authenticity? And here we are another episode, which is hoping for the, you know, like I would love to have a relationship with them that's deeper. And I think that as I heal, the more open I become of that, but at the same time with my healing, the more open I am to setting boundaries that might let me off the hook finally. And if it wasn't for my son, that probably happened a long time ago, but there's something about the innocence of children and how they fuck it all. It's like, and he's like really helped, not just me and my relationship with my family, but like me and my relationship with everybody. And it's like just having a, again, realizing that like, oh, I didn't make any of these choices too in my childhood and my parents didn't make their own choices as their childhood. And at a certain point, we do have to make our own choices for our families. And that's been a hard balance for me to like, because I do tend to be a very empathic person of like, I really can see most sides of every story and like empathize with each side. And that's, what's been hard with making those choices of like not being around or talking with certain people, because it's like, I can acknowledge where they're at, of like, oh, I so understand why they're at that point in their life. But the difference is I've made the choice and it's been hard. And you guys know this to want better and to put in the work hours and hours and hours of work to understand who I am, to have better relationships with people. And I'm going to reap the benefits of that because I put in the work and if somebody is not willing to do that and they make a choice to actively not put in the work, we don't have to say, oh, you're a terrible person and shame them for it. But we can also acknowledge like, okay, we're just not aligned in that area. And I don't think like, I don't think you'll really like me as a person. I don't think I really like you too much as a person just because we're not aligned in anything. And it doesn't have to be a shaming thing. It's just like, okay, that's where things are at. And I think people get surprised sometimes when I talk about that, when it relates to family. Cause they're like, oh, but it's your family. It's like, no, I totally get it. Yeah. But like there's still people. And if they're like not treating me with basic respect or like they're just, you know, causing abuse, like I wouldn't put up with that with anybody else. Why is family different? You know, I, and I think I just, I've created my own family over the years where it's like, no, those are the people that like, I want to be around and, and some of them do happen to be biological family, but not all of them and that's okay. Who was the, like you were born in the Baptist church. Yeah. Who was it then? What part of your family that was like spearheading that? It was my mom. Your mom. Yeah. Did you still have a close relationship with your mom? No, no. Um, yeah. And I haven't really talked about that anywhere, but yeah, it's really hard. It's really hard. Yeah. We don't have to talk about it. Oh no, it's okay. It's like I, there's parts of it. I wish I could share more. Um, but I think some of it comes from like the fear of like growing up the way that we did of like, you were just in the way that I grew up. But also too, it's like, I love her so much and I know I understand why she's where she's at. Um, so it's just a hard balance of like, I wish things were different. Um, but they're not. It's like, so the relationship is a strange because of the deconstruction? No, because of my surgery. That's really well, and it wasn't because of the surgery. That was just transformation. The whole transformation of me being a different person. Yeah. Yeah. Connected to like the deconstruction in a way. It's this finding of self. That's what I keep hearing is that the surgery allowed you to find your true self who, correct me if I'm wrong, the religion suppressed like crazy. Then you found yourself and now at least I'll just speak for myself. Since finding myself, I just want my parents to love me for me. Yes. And when you don't get that from them, you're like this kind of worthless now. Yeah. It's such a facade. Yeah. Yeah. Cause as, as humans were designed to have an attachment with our parents, like you look at even how animals are, where there's a deep attachment with their young. And so I think that's where a lot of it came up for me where it's like, Oh, there's this like broken attachment with my mom. And it's like, something must be really fucked up with me if like that attachment isn't there. That's what I thought for a long time. Yeah. And then realizing like, Oh, it has nothing to do with that. It's learning how to reparent yourself in that way and going, no, you're a worthy human being just because of like who you are and that's who you were created to be. And then finding more people who can encourage that in you and show up for you in that way. But it's still painful and it's not your parents so hard. It really is. Yeah. I feel it. Yeah. I feel it so strongly actually. My something we've been really struggling with is, is this like separation from our parents. It's a process and there's no right or wrong way to do it. And I think that has given me a lot of encouragement of like, this is just like the best way I know how, like I'm trying to figure out and it's been really cool like talking about reparenting and remothering. Like I, I use that phrase a lot, but it's been really cool to see how other people have showed up in my life and given me those things that don't replace the relationship with my mom, but do things that like I should have had when I was a kid all along. And it's little things like that will strike a chord like this where I'll get really emotional about it. But I think when somebody really sees you for who you are and says like, I love that person. That's what we all want to hear. And so I think it's cool that there's other people that can show up in that way. And, give us those things that we're craving. And at least for me, I don't think it'll ever replace that desire and relation and that desire and want. But I wish that could have been both of my parents in different parts of my life. But there are some really cool people that have given me that guidance and help along the way. And, how cool is that? Like, I just feel really lucky. Yeah. I mean, I know this is emotional for you, but like I'm just seeing evolution here and now, because if you think about it as a species to be able to like safely and maturely realize that like these familial bonds that have been leading history for like, you know, like Kings and Queens that were like you get to become King because you're the son of, and we realized that we're all in this together. Every single one of us is like, we're all in this together and we're all in this together. And we realized that we're all in this together, every religion or non-religious if you're atheist or whatever. Ultimately we're on the same fucking rock traveling through space and time killing it, harming it. Right. And it's like, so no matter what anyone, and I, I think that's like a really evolutionary place to be yourself healing and like this like remothering because then you can kind of let go and accept that there's all these different ways that are happening without it becoming anger back at it. Hostility. Which typically is what I received. Right. As a lot of growing up. And that's part of it like, and that's where like I, it's the first time I've allowed myself to truly feel anger and what that feels like. And there was a season where that was my primary emotion that I was in. And so I, I get that feeling and I think that's healthy too, you know, to feel that way. And anger isn't a bad thing. People get misconstrued with that all the time. It's actually a healthy emotion. Yeah. And I had a therapist explain it to me one time. He was like, if you look at, if you think of a coin and on one side of it is anger on the other side of it is immense love. And really like that's helped me a lot to go, the things that I feel most angry about do stem from that place of like, like I wouldn't be angry about this if I didn't care and love the person that I was angry at or, you know, cause then that's just apathy. Like that's easy. Like if you don't care about people or you don't love people, that's easy to get over and work through or, you know, someone flips you off while you're driving. I don't know them, whatever. Like you move forward. But when it's like your parent, that's like flips you off metaphorically. Like I don't like who you are as a person. Yeah. That's different. Leave some scars. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So anger is a good thing too. Anger in relationships too is an identifier that you still want to be in the relationship. Yeah. If you're getting angry at your part. I mean, I guess physical anger is way, way different. Anger can always be toxic in its own way. Yes. Just any emotion can be. Yeah. I just, I just finished a social psychology class. Um, yeah. And just learned so much about relationships. Tell us what you've learned. Well I learned that anger is not a bad thing in relationships. Whereas, I mean, I think it's just like understood growing up that you're not supposed to be angry. You're not supposed to get angry at someone you love or express that. When really it's shown that when you are expressing that, you're actually just showing how much you love that person. Not that we should be expressing anger, but it's not an identifier of divorce. Wouldn't it have been nice to be told, here are some healthy ways to express those and all the emotions you're feeling totally normal, totally understandable anger. How do we express that in a healthy way? Do we, do we want to just like go yell in a pillow right now? Do we want to stop her, stomp her feet? Yeah. I'm thinking more as a kiddos, you know, but actually for adults too, I do those things too. But I'm even like seeing my younger self just like needing that agency growing up in the hyper evangelical faith of like, I just need to express myself and you're telling me to pray. Yeah. I can't express myself. And then just bottles up, bottles up. And we get super angry, especially when you mix alcohol into it. It just blurs the lines. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think that's why, like, I, I, it feels so nice to express emotions honestly now because even, I think mine tends to come up in sadness and tears now, but it's because like for so long I was taught, like, don't cry, like don't be upset. Like we always have to be happy. Put on that happy face. Don't be, or even like I think about like different religious funerals and stuff that I've been to, it's like, those are so hard. Cause it's like, don't be sad, be glad. And it's like there's such an important part in that grieving process. And I think that's a big way to sum up too, even just the last two years, it's been a lot of grief of a lot of different things. Um, but that's where like healing comes from is acknowledging what is actually there and not trying to change it or box it up or put it into something pretty. It's like, no, I'm just really sad or it's painful or I'm angry. And, um, it takes a while though to acknowledge or to recognize those emotions first to recognize them, then to give you permission, give yourself permission to express them. And then to be able to communicate that to another person, it's really hard. We weren't taught how to do that. So we're learning things. Yeah. We're learning these things that we should have been taught as kids, but now in adult situations with like higher stakes, you know, it's like, it's, it's really hard. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why, if you're lucky, you have a partner like has a lot of space for failure. Failure is a part of growth, you know, it's like working out or being healthy. It's like, you're going to fail. And I think like, for me it was like, oh, so I've always been so hard on myself. Failure was always like, there's no room for failure. Yeah. And yeah, through therapy and plant medicine and like all of the different avenues that I take for healing, it's like failure is such a part of life. And so I think it's perceived like, and I think a lot of toxic masculinity has like, kind of like overshadows a lot of these qualities that we like are raised to believe in this work focused, like not like work as hard as you can to succeed and succeed and have purpose and who are you? And like, and so I think there's like a balance of realizing just like how much failure is. Once again, that's where God is. God is in that. And those are those moments of like where you really feel the authenticity and like the truth of certain situations and where you get to like have clarity for like a lot of what the next steps are to like, I don't know, fail again, but at a higher level or something. I think your wife had a question. We have actually have a question from the audience. Oh, I love it. Please initiate something. And real quick, because there's no mic, so no one's going to hear that. We need to paraphrase that. My wife out of left field, my left field is asking, kind of talking about more of the experience that you had building up to your surgeries on a spiritual level. Really a little bit more, just kind of like, cause I know we're going to take an hour and 45 minute mark, but more of the spiritual experience or that process, you know, because it seems like that's like a lot of what you're talking about. The construction has led up to this surgery, but you were still in the church, right. Leaving up to it and building up to it. Yeah. It was like, I was still very much in the religion leading up to my surgery. Um, but I would say socially we weren't super connected in the religion. Um, but it was like, if you asked me, you know, do you believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven? Yes. Do you believe that, you know, kind of the, the rules I grew up believing in, I was still very much yes. Um, but it's gosh, there's so much packed into that where I'm like, which, which way should I go with that? Um, well, I guess I can share like more of a story that might be helpful and, and kind of explaining just one of the things that have been transformative and more of like a spiritual way and what I guess really helped me see the difference between religion and being spiritual. Um, it's one thing to know about something. It's totally different to experience it. And so I guess like, for whatever reason, after my surgery, I just went through more of like an experiential part of my spirituality journey, but like, this is just kind of an interesting story. Um, and I guess like an example of, of that, maybe, I don't know, I guess I'm just feeling like I should share it. So I will. Um, so, uh, it was, I was in this season kind of, of just having these different, like I was kind of talking about God phrases that would come into my mind and, um, kind of blanking on them right now, but different things that I'm just like, where is that coming from? Like, and I think, again, you could probably associate or attach it to a lot of different things. Wasn't my intuition, was it the universe, was it whatever, but I'm just using it God, like I said, that's the language that like I know well and use. Um, and this one, um, oh, it was such a crazy experience. So part of what, um, got me into this journey of having surgery was that me and my husband want to conceive. And, um, we tried for, for several years, it just wasn't happening. And so that's like the big reason why I got surgery was because of the research involved in, in that, um, this one night, it was so weird. Um, my dad and his girlfriend were, um, up visiting us in Oregon and they were downstairs. That part comes in later of why that's kind of interesting. Um, me and Dylan had gone up and we were going to bed and all of a sudden it was like, I just felt this presence, like in the room of like, Whoa, what is that? Like, and it was, it was hard to like describe, but it was like, something's in there. Um, and Dylan in this season, I share this, I don't give away too much. Um, during this season he was really deep in, um, a lot of like rejection of religion of like, I don't even know if I believe in anything religious, anything spiritual. I'm just like, I don't even know. Totally get that though. But even he was like, what is that? Like, I feel something. And I was like, I know, right? Like, what is that? And, um, I got like a sense though, like, Oh, this isn't something, um, harmful or dark. And I have had experiences where I've felt that and it didn't feel like that. And then, um, I was like, I don't know, but I think it's okay. Like, I don't think it's anything scary or harmful. Um, so Dylan went to sleep. I don't know how he went to sleep. He was just like rolled over and was fine. And then, um, it was such an interesting experience where I was like communicating with this thing, um, through my mind and it was using very different language. Like it wasn't me making stuff up or talking to myself, which again, you kind of just have to believe what I say, right. Or don't like, you could justify or say it's lots of different things. But anyway, and it identified itself as Gabriel, the angel. And I was like, that's weird. And I, and in this point I was still kind of like, I have definitely believed there's a God in their spiritual stuff, but I don't know how much of like the Bible and religion part I believe. So I was like, just surprised by that. Like, that's weird. Um, and then in my mind I saw like, um, this 3d model of, um, you know, if you were to, well, I don't know if you guys would know, you would maybe know, um, go, if you go into like an OBGYN's office, they usually have like, or, well, you know, you're a nurse, they have, um, like diagrams of like a pregnant woman, you know, like what that looks like. Yeah, exactly. So I got that image in my mind and it was like this hand that went over and, um, like a baby showed up and then the hand went over again and another baby showed up and then the hand went over again and another baby showed up. And, um, Gabriel, this is, that's how he identified himself. He said, um, you're going to, you're going to have kids, like that's part of the purpose and the plan. And the first one you're going to have is going to be very, um, gentle and quiet and like the same kind of gentleness that you approach Dylan with is what she'll need. And then you'll have a second one who's going to be a boy and he's going to be like your spitfire. Like you guys aren't going to know what to do with him kind of sense where he's not going to be like either one of you. And then he's going to come next. And then you'll have your third one. Um, who's going to be more like you talking to me, who's going to just love people and love being, um, just very relational. And then in my mind I was like, okay, three and three, that makes sense with like the diagram. But then he said, but then you'll have a fourth and she'll be named joy. And that's who's gonna like round it out. And it's like, I, that experience was so impactful cause it was like, so weird. Um, and like not something like I would ever want to make up, especially because it's about something that's like so sensitive and personal to me and other people who've struggled with infertility. But I think that's just one of those experiences where I'm like, okay, there is something, I don't know all the language for it. And I don't know what's out there. I don't even know if it'll happen for sure. But it was just, um, such an impactful thing. And, and, and how that leads to bariatric surgery. I don't know why, but just after bariatric surgery, that's when I started experiencing more things like that. Um, another thing that's been really interesting is like I've been able to pick up on, I call them like blockages. There's different things that I think just like hang on to people. And sometimes it can be like generational. Sometimes it can be, um, not, but, and they've given me specific names of what they are. So like, um, even during this time I've picked up on performance is a big one that I feel like is just hanging over. Um, shame is a big one that I've come in contact with. There's actually like a blockage of religion and that's a really interesting one. Um, so that's been another kind of piece to my journey of like, um, for whatever reason, there's this, um, sense I get with people now when I meet them, if there is kind of something hanging over, um, it is, it, it seems very real. Um, and again, you could call me crazy and be like, that's just weird. It sounds like you have the privilege of being a medium, honestly. It sounds like you might be connected to some sort of like barrier between the known and the unknown. Yeah. We're just sensitive. I mean, it's like, you know, like, yeah, I mean, who knows, but I think like, whatever the reasons are, I relate, I've had really weird, psychedelic, sort of out of body experiences that had nothing to do with drugs or any sort of thing. It was just like, and I had an experience when I was in nursing school, like you're bringing, you're making, like you're bringing back a similar story that I've like where I know what that kind of feels like and you come out of it and you're like, I don't know what the fuck to do with this or what this means or why it's like a dream while living. And then you're like, you can decide, I guess you can interpret like you were talking like integrating, how do we integrate these? I think we want to like give them like, oh, does that mean I'm going to have these kids? But that's like really, really beautiful. And so it sounds like after having this sort of like pretty radical experience through surgery, right? Where you're like put under a piece of you is taken out that like really like redefines you. And all of a sudden that like place that's maybe been there is all more sensitive. Yeah. And I think it's like the only connection I've been able to make to it is just that, like that physical change. It just, it's like, it was a fast track to connecting my mind to my body and like just making it all connect for the first time where it was very like segregated before. Um, but yeah, it's weird. It's cool though. Oh yeah, you're right. I always forget that part. Dylan out of left field now says that your dad was downstairs. See, this is why I keep him around. He's so helpful with stuff like that. No other reason. Just to help me finish my stories. Yeah. So the weird part about that was the next day, um, my dad and, um, his girlfriend's name is Stacia and they, they were like, or Stacia was the one that said it was so weird. I didn't say anything about anything that happened. She's like, it was so weird last night. I could have sworn, or she's like, your dad was on the couch asleep, which is like his natural habitat. That's usually what he does. Um, and she was like, I was watching TV. And I could have sworn Dylan was downstairs. Like I thought he had come down to get water. She's like, so I, I kind of saw him who I thought was him in the corner of my eye. And then, um, I looked back at the TV, but then she's like, I noticed it seemed taller than him. So she's like, it made me do a second look. And then when I did that, it like exited out through the door. And so I was like, is that the angel Gabriel? I think so. I don't know. I mean, but I just thought that was interesting and kind of another interesting element to it where she had said that before I had told him that I told him what had happened. And, uh, my dad is a very spiritual person and kind of a fun way. He would be such a funny person to have on your guys's podcast. I'll just plug it there, but very interesting ideas. Yeah. You plug it there. Ask him. I keep telling him, I'm like, you need to start your own podcast. Cause he's. Is he still pretty religious? Um, again, I don't think, or no, he's very against like organized religion, but very spiritual. So him and I will talk a lot about different experiences that he's had that I've had. And, um, Megan asks, what did the experience mean to you? Um, I think the first part is like, I really don't know anything about anything. So I think it just kind of reiterated that where, um, I think it just showed that spirituality and what we experience is so much, um, it's so much bigger and broader than the religion that like I grew up in. And it's hard because like part of me wishes that I could just reject it fully kind of that black and white mentality of like, Oh yeah, I used to believe in that religion, but like I totally don't believe in that anymore. But I think it's like shown me, like it's just not that black and white and that simple. I think there's just so much more that as humans, we want to try to like latch onto and we want to try to explain. And there's a lot of comfort and safety and having the answers to that. But then it's like, there's so much that like we can't, we just can't. And it's so frustrating. Cause it's like, we want to know, but I think it's helped me just embrace that more of like, dude, I don't know what that experience was or what that meant. Um, if we'll have four kids, if we won't have any kids, like I, you know, I can't guarantee or I don't know, but like, that's pretty cool. And there's just, I think it's more exciting, I think living life that way. Cause I've just been more surprised at like things I used to try to force into place to make happen. Now it's like I just show up and it's like, whatever's supposed to happen happens and it's way wilder and different. Even this conversation is so different than what I could have planned or like expected. I wasn't expecting to share some of the stuff. Well, a lot of the stuff that I shared today and it's like, well, that's okay. Like, so I think it's just, I don't, I think those are the main takeaways. Like I didn't know, or I don't know a lot of anything. And, um, and also too, like, I'm not crazy. Like I think that was what was so scary about like experiencing stuff like that. Because again, I grew up religious, but not super, not taught about spirituality. So that's something I'm still like kind of learning, but it's not, I don't feel like I'm crazy. I'm sure other people could disagree with that. But I do think that's just, just because we can't quantify it or have it show up in ways that to us prove things doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. And so I just feel more open-minded. And so that's why like now if people have like ideas that maybe are so far fetched from what I grew up learning about, or like they just am like, or make me go, a lot of these conversations come from my dad where he'll bring up really off the wall kind of things, but I'll never be one to ever say, no, I don't believe that's possible at all. It's just made me more open-minded of like, I can't really see that, but like maybe, I don't know. Like it could be, you know, just being more open and that's felt nice. Yeah. It's a wonderful feeling and daunting. Scary too. Coming out of the religion, it's, at least for me, it took a while to like understand my own spirituality now because it's been so like hyper fixated on the way you're supposed to be Christian. And so my spirituality was so defined through Christianity that you let go of that. And these are heavy experiences like this and you're like, okay, so there is spirituality though, or there is this spirit realm or whatever you want to, like you said, like who knows, who knows what it really is, but there is something there. And then you kind of come to your own terms on like what the spirituality is and having to find that without the Christianity is, is a whole battle in itself. Yeah. There's, it's just kind of like coloring outside of the lines and it's like, Ooh, this is so different and bigger and scary and weird. And it felt a lot nicer in certain ways when it was confined and going, Oh yeah, that's just God. Or that's just Jesus. Or that's just the Holy Spirit telling you this. And I think those can all be language or words that people use to describe experience. But I think that's what it is at the end of the day. We're all doing the best we can to explain unexplainable things. And so even today, like, or like even how I am now, anybody who comes to me claiming to know the absolute truth about something, the, you know, that I have all the answers, it's always like a red flag now. And I think, I think that relates a lot back to the church and I, and that's what I will get angry about is I just feel like I was lied and tricked because the reality is nobody knows what happens when we die. We can all guess and like, and hope for different things and say, Oh, we've had experiences that allude to potentially, this is what happens. But to go up and say, I know for sure this is what happens when you die. I don't know how you could do that. Like, and so it just makes me like not trust people usually when, when I hear any type of thing like that of like, I have, and I mean, that shows up in a lot of ways, even in like diet culture and like the, you know, having excess weight, experiencing that like, I have the one solution that'll help you lose all the weight. It's like, even with bariatric surgery, people will think that like, Oh, it's great. You get surgery and, and in a lot of ways, yes, it, it definitely helped with like physically allowing my body to lose weight, but Oh my gosh, there's so much emotional and mental crap. And I think that's something I've been in a season of grieving is like, Oh, after losing my excess weight, I've lost about a hundred pounds in total. And it's like, shit, I still have issues. Like that wasn't the one thing solves all like there's still a lot of problems because life is hard and messy. And so there's been grief in that, there's been grief in that, which is interesting, but, but it obviously was a big, uh, wall to break down. Oh yeah. Yeah, definitely rivers and valleys and mountains and all of the things, you know, like the moment you, you know, get to the top of one mountain, there's so many more mountains to climb. Yeah. Which again, can feel daunting and scary, but then it's like, Oh cool. I won't be bored. That's for sure. I love it. I think like find a lot of joy in the hard part of like these mountains, you know, like the moment you get to one level and you feel like you don't know anything cause you've accomplished that is like a wonderful feeling. Yeah. It takes it like we started off saying it takes a lot of pressure off. Um, and I do remember what I was trying to say earlier. You brought up something really interesting about how there's like block your blockages and one of them being right now, performance. One of the things for our podcast that we get to do, and I know you have your own is like that performative weight can really get in the way of being just like in the moment in my ADHD response, like out of stress is like, I'm always like thinking a million miles an hour on this podcast. It's crazy. But, um, with plant medicine that I like just in the huge believer in the therapy or the therapeutic effects of it, um, like psychedelic experiences, people see like mother Mary a lot of all different cultures, whether that's because mother Mary has been just colon, burned into the brain, whatever I recently on my retreat saw mother Mary. And I've been somebody where like the way you're kind of phrasing your spiritual experiences as being like, you know, I'm just going to describe it the way it was presented to me. And I totally understand because I've been somebody that's like against the Christian dogma or those images that come back into my life. And I'm like, no, no, like I'm not, that's not my spirituality. And what I've learned like in my life now that like, it's all welcome. Like everything is welcome. Like anything is possible and whether it's because it's been implanted as like, who cares? Right. It's like, I think we want to like have answers all the time. And so I totally relate with having experiences that are like, I don't know what the fuck that was, but I'm going to make some sense. I'm going to like use it and like, just keep going along with it. So you don't have to have the answer. And like 100% that red flag, if you tell me that, you know, the way like, I'm going to be like, no, you don't. Like, I don't really, cause I think like in Christianity, which when I left and just latch onto the next religion, or I'd like try to find some other per it was like really easy for me just to trust everybody. And I think it was like conditioned for us to trust the man that would tell you like, this is the way, this is the way. And it's, there's not like one, one way, you know, like one perfect path. Especially when those people that are telling you that are telling you that when you die, the suffering continues. Like that's a wild belief to like, base your entire, when you die, you're going to first be judged. And if you're doing the right life in this world, you'll go to heaven, which is shiny and all you do is worship and there's hell and you burn. It's like just that alone, that belief of that's how this life ends is destructive in its own manner. But to have that, those types of people stating that that's the truth. I think that was like a real hard thing for me to let go of, of just that when I die, it actually might be peaceful. That actually might be like where love really is, is in death. And this might be, this whole experience might be part of suffering. And I just feel like at least the Christians I've had in my life, it's all about suffering. And when you die, it's all about suffering even more. Just keep suffering, keep suffering. And I just feel like there's so much more love. Unless you're like the chosen one and you give your life to Christ and you go to heaven and you have a golden bed. Lucky you. Yeah. Everything's out of gold, right? And you're like, ah, so bright. But what do you do in heaven? All you do is worship. Yeah. Yeah. So then, cause I know we're kind of been pushing, we're getting to those hours, but one of the, I wanted to like kind of bring the podcast down. Thank you audience for, yeah, thanks for facilitating. I like being able to balance questions. The husband and wife keep the conversation facilitated. Yeah. Brilliant question. My love. But, so here you have this podcast, which is like talking about these things, right? Like you're, I don't know how, like I've checked it out a little bit when we first talked, but what was it that about having a podcast for you or putting yourself kind of in this same position, right? Where you're like in the pocket of talking with people's experiences, maybe before during or after and relating and creating a safe space. I'm like, what has your podcast, like what is it doing for you and putting yourself in the performative weight, you know, or energy and doing this? How did you find that? I think it's always just been part of who I am. I've always loved talking with people and asking questions and, just learning about other people. And so it just made sense. Like with my own podcast, the girl with Shay podcast, it's very free form. I usually, some people get a little nervous coming on because they're used to having like pre-planned questions and I'm like, I can do that, but that's just not really how I do things. So it's just more like, I like to describe it as like, these are just coffee chats. We'll just see where the conversation goes. And, so I think it was like once I saw, oh, having different people's point of views and perspectives, that's been what's helped me the most in my growth journey. Cause I wasn't taught that I was taught, no, we need to like stay in this religious perspective. And anybody outside is danger, danger, stay away. And then it's like, no, I want those people. Like I want anybody who's on any walk of life. Like we can learn so much from each other when we just share our stories. And so that's what my podcast is, just people coming on. And sometimes it'll go like really weird direct or like different directions than either one of us are expecting, or sometimes it'll, you know, be more topically specific. But, um, yeah, it's like the more that we can just put that out there and it's just creating community. And that's also too, what's so interesting about religion and the church. It's like, I, with so many religions and cults, like I would say the majority of the time they start from such a good place. Like, and I think that's something we don't always give credit to. Like it's you, I shouldn't say always, but like there are situations where it's like these people just want to like show up for each other and have a community and love each other. And then it's like the people that just kind of fuck it up over time or when that power comes in or like these rules and, and, and it's just a bummer. Cause it's like the thought and idea behind it is actually like a good one. And I think it's just, it's sad though, that it turns out to be that way. We've always said this is our church. We normally do it on Sundays, which is when church was on Sundays, right? And this is our new version of church. Like we desire, like when you, especially when you're born in a church community, it's wonderful. There's barbecues, there's people's homes you're always going over to. And then when you leave the church, you're like, I do kind of miss some of it. You know, it's like hard to admit it almost. It's built on some sort of truth. It's like there, there is this under layer of, Oh, there is a connection to spirituality, but then there's also these rules and these regulations that the religion is enforced, but there is something there. I think that's what makes it so powerful. It's what makes it so culty. Yeah. Yeah. And money. Sure. Well, money is always the biggest. It's always blends in money. Somebody's richer than the rest. Especially when you live in a capitalistic society. Yeah. Capitalistic religion. I don't know. But yeah, like evolutionary religions, you know, saved a lot of people. If you group together and you all believe one thing and you agree with each other, you all can support each other in that. And then when you don't believe that, they're like, get the fuck out of here. Right. And then you're like, wait a minute. It's not even your friends. And that's like how countries are, these borders. You stay on that side. You're not allowed here. You're illegal. It's like, what? You know, it's crazy. Yeah. You know? And so when you break those walls, when you do break those walls down, it's like, wow, we're all just on this rock. Let's build a family, but you know, you try to build a family. That's why the sixties make so much sense. Yeah. Yeah. Everyone's on it. Maybe this is like our next round of it, right? Your next generation. Yeah, I do. I think so. Yeah. Next generation makes sense. Absolutely. And the algorithms, at least in, we are, we, I, you know, they don't facilitate these conversations as much, right? These, I don't know, like we don't yet on certain platforms, which, you know, it's like where, but I think that there is, yeah, there's like a need, there's a desire for authentic communication. And like one of the things I love about the camera and hitting record is there's something artistic that happens with humans where we're like, when there's a camera on us, that performative energy can either block your thoughts or it forces in like, which forces you to say either hide, which is a truth. Like, Oh, you just hide under window eyes on you. You're just hiding from yourself. Or you really get it out. And I don't know, like the camera kind of tricks us to like have maybe more powerful conversations and then it's all there and then you can put it up for people to watch and maybe they get something out of it. But that's something that I've like really benefited from myself, right? And having a podcast is that like, I actually really enjoy that pressure because it forces me to like say something more authentic that I would want people to like see me as, you know, and it's like, am I hiding myself? Am I being real? I don't know. Do you guys want to be part of a little experiment? Always. I mean, I always say yes. I'll explain the experiment and then you can decide, but, um, so part of like this journey that I've learned and, and again, you can keep this in the podcast or not depending, I guess how it goes, but, um, I've talked with a lot of people and those blockages that I was talking about will come up and like for you, I really sense performance for you when you were talking. It's like the religion is really there. Um, what I've done with people, and this has probably been maybe, maybe 50 people or so just over, it was super scary and uncomfortable and like hard in the beginning to like, even know how to communicate it. Right. But I've done this now with probably like 50 people. Um, when I sense those things I have found that, and again, this is just the language I use cause it makes sense. But when I pray over them, it like releases, so it can be kind of like an intense experience. Like there's usually what happens after, not like directly after always, but within like the first day or so there's like these, um, physical expulsions that sometimes come up. So sometimes it can be like diarrhea, vomiting, rashes, things like that. Um, but I know, but I know how prayer often was forced onto people who grew up in the real religion. And so I just always want to ask for permission. And if that's something you want to try, I'm happy to do it. If that's like, not, not really what I want to do, just know you won't offend me. You mean like legitimately on the podcast praying for us right now? Holy shit. I have to touch you. I don't know if that's weird, but that's usually hard. Well, you know, um, you want to do it? Do you want to do it? I don't normally say no to anything. I don't normally say no to anything. I have to hear consensual yeses in order. All right. Um, I'm interested. Who are you praying to? I don't know. I don't know. Maybe Zach's right. Maybe you are more like a medium. No, so, so, cause interesting. It's something you're tapping into that you don't even really fully understand. Correct. Yeah. I'm still learning it, but it's like I get this sense and it's like, it's really weird. Like it'll be like I'll sense it and, and I'll get different cues. So like for performance, I usually get this feeling of like, um, almost like out of my body and I get panicky feelings sort of from it. And then, um, sometimes if I can't differentiate what it is, usually the person will say it. So like, it was funny cause in the beginning of the podcast I was kind of sensing that. And then you started saying the word performance. You said it like three different times and I was like, okay, cool. I know what that is. Or like I got it loud and clear. And then, um, and then it was more just recently where I sensed more of that religion one. And then you said that word and it just connected. I'm like, Oh, okay. That's what it is. It's interesting. Cause you bring up, like I bring up this retreat, I went on again and it's an out of body and cosmos traveling experience and you have to face certain things and I faced a lot of our podcast during that experience and it was really fucking scary and I kind of experienced a part of what it, what we're doing on this podcast and what my experience has been with our guests and me alone and everything and it was haunting and haunting experience and also very healing. Ever since I've been back from my retreat, I've had a lot more performative weight than I normally have felt before. And which is very common when you'd like to go off to do these things as you kind of come back and have to face, you agree integrate back in and whatnot. And so it makes a lot of sense to me that you would be feeling that because I feel it and I'm sensing it and it's not like a bad thing, but it's more of, I'm so hyper aware of how much I don't want performative weight to be a block. It has been a block since I was a kid and it just presents itself in so many different ways. And so now it's a different block than what it's like. There's less ego. So sitting in this chair feels way more like, I feel almost more present in it. And that makes me more nervous at times. Yes. A hundred percent. And that's a common quality that I find with performance as well, because like how I describe these blockages, they're so interesting. Like if you picture that each one of us are like, you guys remember, um, pipe cleaners, like, did you ever play with those as a kid? You know, so it's like, if we're each one of those like beautiful pipe cleaner, masterpieces, there's these thorns that come along and they just get stuck in there. And it's really easy to think, Oh, that's part of who I am, but it's something that's completely outside that you need to like, or that it's nice when you get it removed. And that's how I've seen those blockages work is like performance is something that's just integrated on you and attached to you, but it's not who you are. So it's like, that's what I've found is like after I pray or do whatever it is you want to call it. Um, it's just a way of removing that. So that's why I just, I've never done it like in a recording setting to where, again, even if this doesn't go on the podcast, it might just be interesting to see if you guys notice anything if you want to try with the experiment. I'm talking about like, I, I, I am a believer once again in my life over the last two years when it comes to literally being open to everything. I don't think I've allowed somebody to pray for me or over me since I left the church, which is like, I think you probably let dad pray over you in like some of your, but like laying hands. Let's say a really big connection. And what's really weird is I had a dream vision of where I went on my retreat of my dad in a dream with me and he used his hands in a sense of prayer while I was on the, at the retreat. I had a moment of like hearing other people's process of like dealing with their trauma and I put my hands in the air and I was just like, and I've like, that was such like triggering for me cause it's like the idea of hands on prayer. And so in many ways, like vulnerability, I would say like, I would love to do with you, not because of maybe what your experience is, but mainly as an opportunity for me to face some of my triggers in a way more of like, you know, like get that nervous system excited about like facing those sort of, you know, things that like I'm honestly like kind of turned against. But I've learned recently like opening myself up to these spaces that don't have to do with like evangelical Christianity that are just what it is, is like totally like I believe in crystals now. So yeah, I know it's like weird for me to even say it. I get it. Like I've seen it. Yeah. I'm open to it. I'll let you know if I have diarrhea tomorrow. It's, it's interesting. Yeah. To see what people like say back. Yeah. Yeah. Performative energy and religious weight. Sure. Yeah. Would you, can you just, you just hold our hands? I'll go around behind you if that's okay. Is that okay? Yeah. Okay. Okay. I'll work my way around. It might be easier maybe to go your way. Yeah. Yahweh baby. Yeah. We'll leave this and we won't leave the probably prayer part in cause it's just, you know, I don't know. Yeah. Interesting to see. Okay. Let's see. Let's see a spirit work through me. I don't know. Oh yeah. Do you have any bodies? Absolutely. Well I think I'm just reflecting on how much I've been open. I'm calling it, I guess craniosacral work that our nervous systems in the way we was a whole trauma and the ways we have these like triggers are yeah. As you get back to your seat now the sensations I'm feeling is more of like it's, yeah, it's triggering. And I don't know like in my journey and whatnot, it's learning how to be open to these things and then like jumping in. Right. It's like, why not? Like it doesn't, it doesn't have to be like any rules or whatever. But that if you would have done that at the beginning of the podcast, I know for a fact I would have had that weight lifted a little bit just because it's putting pressure on the pulse. Right. It's like, yo, I can sense that we're having some performative energy here and whatever you're feeling and it's like, can I, and it's like, yeah, let's fuck this shit up. Let's get a little weird with it. And that like getting weird normally makes things feel a lot less tense. Right. And so that's what I was feeling the whole time was just like, yeah, this is really weird, but we've never done this. And that's like part of healing is being open to all of it. I also think it's really important for, we really get slammed by Christians on our cast, like really slammed. And I think this is an opportunity to show how open we really are and not hating. We don't hate Christians. Like we don't hate, we don't actually, I guess I kind of hate religion, but like it's, we really are like the whole point of this podcast is to create a safe space for you to feel safe, for you to express your gifts and for us to be open to your experience and your healing. And if that means using the name of Jesus or the angel Gabriel and your spiritual experiences, I would really fucking hope me and Zach are open to that. I've gotten to a place of healing to allow you to feel safe enough to give us a gift. And if I wasn't open to receiving it, I know you're the person that would be like, that's great. And that's, and that's, what's hard about like navigating. It's like, I never want to be retriggering or bringing up trauma for people. Cause I know what that feels like. I know what that feels like to have somebody go I'll pray for you or like, or, and so that's why it's like, I always just want to make sure I get consent. And like, and I, and I'm honest of like, I don't know how to explain it. I just know I've seen enough patterns to know kind of what the process is. Well, thank you for that. It feels really good to be honest. How are you doing over there? I'm chill. I'm fine. Yeah. We're very different people. I am, I literally agree with, in my experience for me, part of my healing has been putting myself into situations that are literally mimicking worship and prayer groups in a completely non-religious way to where I'm like having to sit in something that I actually love being right. Sharing that spiritual with one another, laying hands on one another. It is super wooey and weird and brings back so much traumas from my past, but like redefining that being like, no, I don't have to allow this amazing human connection with one another. That's really vulnerable. And then like, yeah, whatever the nervous system is doing, whatever craniosacral like energy work, I've been doing that more and I've experienced that more. And I think it's all very beautiful. It feels like, and it sounds like a power of intention where it's, you have an intention to heal, you have intention to pray, whatever your intention is. And then the touching and the, it's like a transferring of energy almost in a way. And this facade that we were raised with that you have to use it like the name of Jesus. That's the only thing that I'm like triggered by is the way it comes off. Cause it feels so Christian. I know, I know. And that's, what's so like weird. It's like that again, that's not even really like language, like rebuke in the name of Jesus. I don't, um, I don't say that regularly like in my life, but for whatever reason when I do that, that's just like what I feel like I need to say it that way. And I don't, I don't have a reason why or like know why. And so yeah, I should have said that beforehand. Cause it's like, duh, of course that can be triggering, you know, those phrases, but I don't know why. But like, that's like, oh, it's like unexplainable. Cause like you can ask my husband, I've never liked, I don't talk like that in real life. I don't know. Yeah. It's kind of like for majority of your life, those words were used to bring up your spirituality that now you're either like relearning how to bring up that spirituality, but still it's that, these are the things that bring it out of you that connect you to that divine. Yeah. And that's why I don't get super like held up in language anymore where it's like, that might be the way I say it, but if somebody takes it as like intention, like I love that way of viewing it. Like I think that it's not my job to make language or to say this is the only way that makes sense or the only way to do it. Like my job is just to like show up and then however, like you'll take from it what you need to. And so it's like what we call it or what we do. It's like, of course, I don't want to be triggering with things, but I can't always help that either. But it's like follow what you want. I just know, even though I can't explain it, I've done that enough with enough people to know that like something about it works. And where like people have given me like feedback that like they'll have some type of physical expulsion of some sort within like the 24 hours. And then the other thing that is an interesting commonality is like that next week after tends to be a really hard week where certain things that prick on that performance or like religion, it'll almost be laughable on how specific it is that comes up. Because again, these are just the words I use to describe it. It's like as we're walking into who we were created to be, the darkness comes and wants to like keep us there and keep us back. And again, that's just the language I use. You can use whatever. So it seems like it tries really hard. That's kind of what I was talking with you in the beginning where like it'll come out sometimes in technology where certain things will go weird with tech stuff or, or it'll just be kind of ironic, like this weird situation. So just know the next week might feel kind of hard in weird ways. But then after that, it's kind of like that block is gone and you have a name for it now to go, it's not me having all of this high energy or like, Oh my gosh, I'm so nervous for this. It's like, what are the lies that performance is telling me? Performance typically tells the lies of you're not doing it right. Like you're not good enough. Things like that religion is a confusing one because it's like 99% of what it says is true. And then it twists the last little bit. So that can be kind of confusing the lies it tells. But for me, it's been helpful to have those names to be like, this isn't Shay. This is like shame that shame has been a big one for me. Shame has been telling me that I'm not good enough. And just being able to differentiate that has been helpful. You've done any IFS therapy? Yeah, it is kind of similar. I haven't done it myself. But I know a bit about it from like learning. Like whether it's like one of the ways I think of space and time is that there's really no order. It's like chaos in order at the same time. And so I feel like you doing that feeling, you know, I don't know, just that intuition, right? To pray for somebody. And I think then like fulfilling that and doing that, then people telling you what they experienced. What's interesting is that I've been experiencing some prickly shit about performance this whole last week and since our last episode. So I almost feel like I'm going to have less prickliness now because I'm just on your level. I really am okay with the wee wee shit. I'm starting to get more okay with the wee wee shit again. And you even using the name of Jesus. Sure. The initial trigger is like, uh, yeah. But what comes right after that is like, Nathan, you just chill, bro. Just chill. And it's like accept and surrender to this thing called humanity. And like, we're all finding our own place in it and how to like, um, and we don't really let people put hands on us unless we're like giving a hug or shaking a hand. Right. And so the hands are like really powerful energy providers. Why you wrap them when someone passes. Right. Yeah. Like an anatomy and all that. Right. You wrap up the hands. And so, and I think it is a vulnerable thing and needing to ask for consent at all. I think what's interesting is like, yeah, my parents, my dad did the same thing. He'd asked people for consent, but his hands were already on them before they said yes. You know, it was like, can I pray for you right now? Jesus is coming. I'm just like, Whoa. And here we are. And I think that like, but I would never sit here and say the power of prayer isn't real. I just know that one of my deacon like traumas that came from leaving the Christian faith was like, I like totally stopped praying. And believing in the, I was like, and anything that had to do like similar as what you're saying with your husband. Like I like hated God. I hated spirituality. It was like dark. I was like, we're going to do opposite. We're going full blown atheism and we're just going to, and it didn't last long. Right. Because it's like, it's just like having awareness of it all around us. And I think just recently in my life with these retreats I've gone on is it's forced me to be more open to like healing and humanity. And so thank you for sharing your humanity with us. And it's amazing to see that you're like your softness and your empathy and like who you are as a person in this character that you're displaying here for us today. And like it feels very authentic and you feel to be really in like you really are in tune with things and people and relationship to things. And so I have no doubt that you're in tune with a power that's like, you know, your hands and your voice and your prayer is powerful. Thank you for using it with us. When you were talking about that, sometimes I'll get certain like pictures that come in my head or like imagery. And like, as you were saying, like that you were in like a really dark place. And like, I can't remember even all the words you were saying, but it's like, I just pictured you. I don't know. I was like a 15 year old. And again, higher power, whatever you want to use. It's like I just got this overwhelming feeling of like so much love for you, even in that time of like, you might've turned your back on like whatever it is again, if you want to use God or the universe, whatever. But it's like you were still so loved and wanted even in that time. And it probably didn't feel that way, but it was like I just got this overwhelming, like feeling of just so much love for you as that like 15 year old. So that's great. That's beautiful. I'll take that. Well, let's wrap it up. I think. Thank you so much again. We always like to end our episode with Zachary asking his famous question. Just to kind of wrap it all up and kind of focuses on what we hope the people seeing our podcast, maybe some of the people seeing our podcast are the individuals that you're going to ask the question about. Yeah. So for everyone else that's deconstructing, you've gone through it. You know how tough it is. Do you have any advice you can give them through the deconstructing process to help them out? I think the biggest thing is knowing that you're a loved and worthy human being, regardless of what you believe, regardless of anything like you're a loved and worthy human being. That's the biggest thing to just know. And it's, and I know that it feels really scary to ask really big questions and to consider things in a way that you haven't ever considered. And it's okay. Like I, it's okay to feel scared about it. It's okay to sit in the uncomfortability. It's okay to say that like, wow, this is really scary and uncomfortable and it'll be okay. Whatever you, whatever you come to terms with of believing or not believing, it'll be okay. And I think sometimes I don't want to devalue the process because it's a big process, but also it's not that big of a deal. What you come to, it's not that big of a deal and it's okay. It'll be okay. Yeah. Love that. It's all good. Like start this podcast off talking about shoulders like this. And then now it's like, take it off. I love that. Yeah. Love that. Well, thank you Shaye Quinn. Yeah. Thanks for being here. And husband Dylan and my wife Maggie for being here. Thank you for driving all of that way. My gift to you was a bunch of onions for my garden. I'm so excited about it, honestly. Thank you for taking some off of my, you have too many. But so much gratitude for you coming all this way. Your story is beautiful. The way you shared it is powerful, especially ending it there on performative energy. I really wish we started off there. I considered bringing it up, but it's always a hard thing to know. But the thing is I just don't believe anything's supposed to be any way. But I just am really happy that you felt safe enough to like call out some energy you were feeling. Because that's all I want on this cast is to be called out in authentic ways. Not for me personally, but just what is going on here in our lives. And what are we really doing here? And what are we trying to be in this moment? And so you really brought authenticity and organicness. And yeah, I'm just really appreciative of you and finding us and the community that we've started to build. And your podcasts, Grow with Shay, which are these coffee chats. Check that out on YouTube. Yeah, actually, no, not on YouTube on that one. Apple, Spotify, and then I have my YouTube channel. If anybody's interested too in more of like the blockages, I actually have a free workshop that's on my stand.store slash girl with Shay. And it's free. It's just 30 minutes kind of explaining the different blockages that I've seen and kind of characteristics. And it comes with a little ebook and stuff. So if somebody's interested in that. Very cool. And then also the waiting table, but that's W-E-I-G-H-T-I-N-G. Shabadda bing, shabadda bing. Very clever name. I know, I have to give kudos to my co-host. That was all him. Anything else I agree? Absolutely nothing. Well, everybody there and however you're listening or watching to us, thanks for being here. Yes. If you've made it this far, honestly, thank you. Yeah. That means you kind of care. That means you're in the right place. Or you just fast-forwarded and listened to the end. That's fine too. Yes. How boring. Thank you, everybody. We'll see you next time on the World Combat Podcast. Yeah, thanks, everyone. We're out. Thanks for listening. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.