Under the Fig Tree, An Honest Conversation on Toxic Shame & Victimhood | Ep 80 | Moral Combat

In episode 80 of the Moral Combat Podcast, hosts Nathan and Zachary Blaustone engage in an intimate, reflective conversation set in a tranquil outdoor environment under a fig tree, diverging from their usual interview format to focus on personal experiences. They explore the deep-seated impacts of their radical Christian upbringing, discussing repressed memories, chronic pain, and feelings of victimhood tied to their religious past. Zachary delves into the resurfacing of trauma and the struggles it has triggered, while Nathan opens up about the resurfacing of sexual trauma and the toxic shame that the church instilled in him. Together, they navigate these difficult emotions, offering each other support and finding solace in the healing journey they've embarked on through the podcast. Their discussion also touches on the relationship between their religious upbringing and their perspectives on work, money, and personal aspirations, all while hinting at exciting future plans for the podcast, including the possibility of a Patreon, more interviews, and even livestreams.

Moral Combat, hosted by siblings Nathan and Zach Blaustone, is a heartfelt exploration of life's complexities, with a primary focus on healing from religious trauma. Step into their world as they navigate the realms of music production, confront the lingering echoes of religious trauma, and embrace laughter as a universal healer. With each episode, Nathan and Zach weave together their unique perspectives, seasoned with dynamic personalities that make every discussion an engaging adventure. From unraveling the complexities of personal growth to fostering open communication, healing the scars of religious indoctrination, and embracing the unfiltered authenticity of siblinghood, Moral Combat is your passport to thought-provoking conversations, heartfelt insights, and the pure joy of shared moments. Join us in the combat for morality, one conversation at a time.

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What's up Moral Combat fans? There it is already. up Moral Combat fans? We're doing quite a different is your first time here, we are a podcast that discuss religious trauma, Nathan? Yeah, we talk about It's becoming more and more popular. Um, we talk about born in a very real Christian, radical church named Calvary Chapel. Um, so Zachary, my ago decided to, uh, talk about this, um, our in very different times and ways. Um, and our into our adulthood. We've always been best friends And now we are soft lovers. And every week to every talk about this topic, whether it be trauma of our bullshit for fun, interviewing people. We've churches we were raised in, Baptist churches. Uh, we of the distant nieces of Joseph Smith from the a little bit different today. Uh, yeah. Last week a really good amount of time. And we were trying to these solo casts. And this one, we, we felt like we some of the real struggles that are in our lives trauma. And, uh, when we had our weekly meeting to on that. Uh, we wanted to get intimate again and right now. If you, if you're watching what you if you're listening right now, thanks for listening on probably YouTube because it's where the main show is that's fun. If you're, we got five different The uh, normally we are in the podcast studio, which something episodes there right now. We're still on section. Yes. Uh, this is where late at night or underneath the fig tree, as you can see behind me, um, And normally those are the most intimate and the best have, um, about really real us kind of interviewing the same way we interview our guests, Zachary and I And it's so helpful. And so we're so lucky to have each Our goal is to accomplish that today, to treat each our own, I don't know, real life, um, suffering and recently and also some really distant shit. Yeah. very, very, very real lives. And we don't talk time, uh, because we've been giving our platform to for. Um, it's really expanding our platform. And you know, politics and pop culture. And we love that Um, and so this is just another angle. We've been This is kind of how we started. It would all you know, fell into talking about religious trauma. And so for the last two years, it's what it's watch episodes, you know, like 20 through 50 and see every week would come up with a new topic about our Some of those conversations were very intimate, very um, it's about time that we use our platform. You can are rolling, man. And it's like, this really is a display of, um, I don't know, like I was listening where they kind of talk about really personal shit that's like a cathartic and therapeutic act to do that. Um, and so that's the goal today is to use our own And there'll be, there'll be, uh, yeah, we're both Just cause it's emotional shit. I've like lately makes me pretty emotional just talking about anyways. Yeah. We'll get, we'll get into it. There's also going if you're a long listener to our podcast, sometimes garage, like right there, but you're going to So if that bothers you, we're sorry. We're We wanted to change the environment. It's tough. two years now, longer than two years. And, um, we've And so we thought if we were gonna get intimate, bring some couches or something in there or get for that. There's also a purpose for this next part. tree is feeling more and more comforting. I know Two white guys with a podcast under a fig tree. The podcast that we're going to have today, we're and how both of those topics are pretty specific And before we jump in and get real about this shit, section, so we're going to put two and two together. Maybe someday we'll have a Patreon where you can join We will have a Patreon at some point where we have a We'll be right back. All right. Um, let's jump in, around ourselves. I think that, um, one of the things ourselves on our podcasts. I think, uh, it's hard not is the longer, uh, Zachary and I do this, have a religious trauma, interviewing a lot of other myself on. I try to become, I try to be the best interviewer. And, uh, during this process, it not performative. Really. It's intimate talking. People are having that fear and anxiety that coming into our studio or coming onto our zoom calls It is. And I think that holding that space for doing this for a long time, um, it's like, as a nurse, I tell my patients this, where I'll be like, I'm a but truly everyone is a patient. We're all hurting And so putting our every single two weeks doing this I've been, religious trauma is a conversation me and my It's coming. I'm hearing other people talking about It's like we're attracting it to us. Yeah. And I just feel like the choice to do this every basically it's like, Hey, every other week I'm gonna gonna interview people about their past and it's about things that I haven't thought about in 15 years. month for many different reasons have been like happened in my past that have like, that I haven't suppressed have come out over the last month. And caused ripples in my marriage just because of mental health. And you've been there for me over the intense conversations I've had with anybody in so right? Where like, it's about, this is why we have And so, yeah, there's a little introduction of just And I know you've been in your own place. I have. And I want to start our conversation interviewing I know, but I feel like you just introduced yourself But that's because I think I was telling you that and fear, I talk a lot and I talk about myself. And been, ow, something just bit me. And I've been, give you the space first because, yeah, I just do. I there. Anyways, so we've decided the two topics, feeling in my life for me. And then for you. Yeah, victim, being a victim and everything, We talked about this before, right? It's come up Yeah. What has been real, I guess, just like if just like what has been the last month in your life that has right? Victimhood's like, can you explain what you you suffer from like feeling like a victim. I'm, I'm the victim in everything. So it's like of the perception that the world isn't happening to What is it? The world's like, the world's not You're saying it. It's good. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's like, you can think you can reality is just happening. And when I get in these I'm a victim. I'm a huge victim in it. And that comes from being a Christian. And it's so deep I feel like growing up with our hyper evangelical of the outer world on Christians, of like, Zach, persecuted by the world forever, was just burnt I'm a victim to the world, I need to go share the Lord this way. It's kind of the way it felt. And no one It was like, no one cared about my religion ever. And this type of victimhood was burned into me until I was And they started talking about privilege. And I was poor family, like a religious family. My dad no money. And then next thing you know, I'm over actually well off family. I'm a man. Like, I have So you're saying like in that class was when you in the world. And just that I've been living life as a victim to how much of that religious trauma and how much of that Or like, you know, being a white person. I mean, I guess, man, we had a lot of people in our And so it's more than just being a white person. But it's also a part of it too. It is. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's like, No, it's a huge part of my privilege. It's my biggest And then my second biggest is being a white male. Yeah, privilege. And then, but you're specifically that your awareness that it's like, what you're I feel like a victim most of the time when like Yeah. Yeah. So then, what has happened recently, because we've And I know you've been going through some hard And so in your own experience of just your what has happened recently? You know, that has led you to wanting to like, talk Well, we met up and we were talking about what we're And we had a really deep convo. Then we just decided to start talking about this And so it's been what I'm dealing with. And if anyone's actually been listening to the you've realized how long I've been in chronic back And how much has completely changed my life. I mean, look at my fucking hair, dude. Like, I'm a different person now because I'm that is maybe the toughest thing I've ever had to go And so I'm a victim to it. It's not going away. My disability comes to an end in nine days. And then after that, there's no government And I have to like, go back to work. And I'm just like, oh, why does my life have to be Why can't I just have like my healthy body back? I'm a victim to it. But then it kind of comes from this ripple effect of I was a victim to capitalism. And working in the five star environments that I And then before that, I was a victim to not being able because the pandemic happened and I can just And in reality, I just think that's just life. And it's happening at me. And I think I'm attracting it because I'm believing And I need to let go of that. And just realize that like, I think everyone's Like exactly what we're talking about today. We're all struggling in our own ways. And I just don't have to be a victim in anything. I can not be it, but it's burned into me. And that's really why I wanted to talk about it is from what I feel of being a victim as a Christian. Interesting. Yeah. I felt very much like a victim as a Christian too. Yeah. I think that that speaking on what you just said, like and the way we were raised in the church and in the it was very much displayed to us that when you go out you'll be hated because you're a believer in And so as a child, everything you do that's you feel like everyone's against you potentially. And so if you go and share the gospel with somebody get away from me. As a kid, you're like, I'm persecuted for the name of Yeah, exactly. I'm the victim here. You're not the weird white 12-year-old kid who's going Do you want to know about Jesus? So I think it's hard to really see that when that's I'm curious, do you feel like you have any control That's a good question. I want to say yes. I want to say yes. And what areas do you feel that you have control? In myself and how I approach things, my and not my emotions, but my reactions to them. I think. Did you always have control over your emotions and I mean, no. Something you learned in childhood. Yeah. Yeah. Or later as an adult, most of us actually, I think. I think most of us grow up with parents struggling issues and the domino effect of generational Which I guess us having this conversation is 100%. I mean, that's the whole podcast, right? Yeah, that is the whole podcast. But like, I know how much this feeling that you get you know, we talk about it a lot. Well, I'm starting to have a lot of empathy for people I went through most of my life, like not having judgments towards the disabled community, And like also my father's voice, like telling me But and then you just get hurt. And you realize it's like it's an easy place to get And when you're hurt, you're just kind of fucked. And there's a lot of people hurt for a long time, like And when you're in it, man, I just have so much more And it's like a whole new experience on life. If you think about it that way, like I'm legit And there's a lot of growth, I think, going to But getting through this back pain has been the Has there been any growth during this period over the Have you had growth over the last period? Yeah, 100 percent. I mean, your hair's grown. Yeah, which is huge for me. If you've known me at all, like there's a couple times and it's normally when I'm changing that I change my And getting out of Christianity is when I cut That's when I really started to push away from And then growing it out now is like me, I don't know. I think just trying to be more accepting and grateful And it's just hard. It's a muscle that I don't exercise a lot, and I'm I've been doing these meditations. And when I get to a good meditative point, I try to make the reality that I wish could be true. Like your biggest dream. Live in that reality. Go pick up a phone, call someone, and tell them And feel their excitement towards it. And then come back, end your meditation session. Interesting. And it's been magical, man. Really? Yeah. It's just like, there's a certain amount of joy that because I'm stuck in this really negative, scared, fear, anxious headspace, being a victim and And then just living in my dream for a second, like calling you, telling you, feeling your and be like, oh, I did it. I fucking made my dream happen. And just like living in that for a second, It's so peaceful. That's beautiful. What is that dream? I mean, the same dream I've had my whole life, man. Touring the world, playing huge stages, and writing some of the best music of all time, and contributing to what I want to contribute to. That childhood dream. That childhood dream is a powerful driving force. I think it's my spirit. It can be distracting, but I hear you. Did you learn that meditative practice? Is that something you came up on your own? Or is that something that like- No, it was in my feeds. Some, a lot of my feeds now is like manifestation and You add to the feeds and then you use the feeds. 100%, man. We all are. At least if you're using social media or TikTok or But- Is it, when you do that meditative experience, do you get more joy thinking about the stages? Or do you get more joy calling me? More joy calling you, man. I think that's- The stages don't have much to do with it. That's just what it looks like when you make it in It could also look like me selling a shit ton of writing music for other people. Yeah. And me calling you and telling you about my But it's the calling and saying, look at what I'm successful in. Look at what I've created. Yeah. I have a lot of hope that I just become something of Yeah. What if- Yeah. Yeah. So that feeling you're like, so it's like a positive meditative tactic, but then there's also that part of you, there's a part in you, whether it's a child, I don't know however you want to define it, but it sounds like there's a part in you that's like that in your head is how you see yourself Yeah. Do you feel successful now? No, I do not. Do you feel like a good person right now? No, I do. I think I'm a good person. I feel like a really good person. Are you treating the people in your life that you I'm trying my best to. Yeah. That sounds pretty damn successful, right? Because like we started this conversation, you were saying like we were, you were talking about how like I have control over my And I was like, did you before? And you were like, no. And so you love your family. You, I don't know, like these are successful But the dream of the rock star life really is No, man, it's opportunity to do what I want to do. All I want to do is write music. Is there like money though that has to do with that? I mean, it's capitalism, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But capitalism as if I had any career in music that and I was doing it with all my time and all my effort, and it was just to grow music out of my spirit. That's all I want to do. Yeah, no, I know. And you still do that. I know, I try my best to. And like 99.99% of every artist in the world is And like the 0.1% end up in the feeds. And that's why I'm in school, baby. Yeah, make money. So never quit doing that. I also never just want to do one thing though. But taking the capitalistic foot off your throat of you tear a tough job and hurt your body just for a tiny Just a tiny bit of money. You got to do it five times a week. Pay your rent. It's like just to get out of that would be that And it doesn't have to be like, oh, well, I'm a And I'm spending all this money. It could be like, I already live frequently now. I can live off a pretty small amount of money a And just being able to do that is successful to me. But I mean, I'm successful for where I'm at in my life This present, I'm very successful in my head. It's just more of it's hard for me to also hop out of wants, future self, dwelling on the past. I think that's a big thing 24-7 is trying to stay in Yeah. And I think you want more. I mean, I feel the same way you do in many ways. It's just, I've never had this same, we both come the same parents that were pastors, the same handed This is a podcast about religious trauma. And so I know that this idea of victimhood has a So how do we stop blaming the church and parents for is really connected to a culture and whatever, And so how do you, when you're having these that are really tough, do you feel yourself blaming Do you think about the church? Do you think about our parents? I think about our parents. Yeah. And I think, I mean, I think that's fine. I mean, I find myself behaving like my father a What does that mean? And with, without, we love you guys. Yeah, 100%, it's all love. I think as you get older, you start to see your Yeah, that's so true. And it's really, it's tough, man. And there's some things I just do with my face, where so often that there's so many things I do that I see And I've talked about it on a podcast prior, that I am kind of actively fighting. And a lot of my psychedelic journeys have been doesn't want that. It's almost like you, you feel like you learned, you our parents, or like you, that's like where it was And you're, where you're at in your life is like, you do blame, you don't want to be that. I'm not, I mean, but just pointing it out doesn't I also don't blame them for their, who they are. They come from different families, dude, with traumas. Like, because they say that word all the time, but it's Yeah. And I was just talking to our mother about the she was the parent she was. And it's just real. Yeah, it's real. So I don't blame them, but it is the reality of the on a daily basis have been printed to me by them. And if I had different parents with a different no depression, none of this victimhood, but I think I a different life. And this is just my life problems. And I think talking about it and trying to heal and tracks in my brain so I can handle these emotions Starting that into my adulthood is what it's And talking about it is talking about where it parents and trying to hop back to like certain were from a scared mother and a victim family and and rewire myself. But it doesn't mean I'm not confronted with it on a How were you as a Christian with our family, our Church, the youth group, the role you played, how like hand down victimhood to you? How does this happen? The church? How does this connect to religious trauma? Oh, I mean it's everything in religious trauma, but We talk about it often that it's like it's hard to because we were at church like four or five days a The church was our life. So everything is kind of for us related back to the The teachings, at least from the pastors that were went to was teaching there's this hate for You will be persecuted and sometimes even killed in You don't deny his name. Go. And that was like the message almost on a weekly And so that's where the victimhood comes in for me that's not a Christian isn't safe. You're victim to them. Yeah. And this world hates you. You'll be oppressed for being a Christian and so not the case. Yeah, not at all. And I'm trying to let go of that victimhood. And so I think a big part of it is that, but it was So it's hard to be like, daddy, was it you or Jesus? It's like you guys were the same. You pretty much are my Jesus in a way. But that's where it comes from for me. Interesting. And with just being in pain, man, it's been really And I just, man, I think that coming out of this for me is going to be really healing because I pain coming up on 18 months of this shit and never So it's just like, oh man, a moment without back pain going to have a lot more appreciation for just being And the goal is to get that to last and not get lost in Yeah. Yeah. Any form of pain that's acute to chronic, whether is so triggering, right? It triggers the child in me, in you. It's like, these are like children in us. I have like my 17-year-old part, my eight-year-old that teenager, like spark out. And so when you, when did in your life, how old do first time that you were a victim? Can you even think about that? Because kids are resilient, right? And then all of a sudden the 13-year-old's like out You're like, wow, that was fast. It's tough for me because I had like a really bad And so there's about a six-month period in my life and cried all day, every day. And they didn't know what was wrong with me. I wonder if that has anything to do with this. That has a lot to do with everything. Because that happened again when I was 15. That happened again when I was 19. And it happened when I was 23. I'm a fragile boy. Fragile boy. As Jim would say, which is interesting. I want to comment on that for a second. You're a lot less fragile though. Yeah, I'm fragile at certain times though. And when it hits a spot that needs some attention And then that's when you, like, everyone, like, This world doesn't want to help me. And that's when that happens. For me, that's what happens. I think that's where your head goes. My head goes to- But isn't that like the victim? Oh. It can go there. That's like the same feeling, but me approaching Because I feel like a lot of the conversations we it's like, I know when you're having a tougher And we'll talk and you'll call me. And the whole conversation will be like talking about And those episodes is kind of what I'm talking about. It's like those head spaces, getting triggered Yeah. That's how I'm a victim right now to capitalism. I'm a pretty big victim to capitalism. That's where what I'm stuck in right now is I'm a But come nine days, I'm a strong victim to I mean, the fact is, I think what's interesting is there's a lot of people on this planet that have it so Like those in Gaza. And so when you have perspective, it's like, So these issues I'm dealing with are still real. And fucking cause me anxiety, right? And I know if I was in a war or I had no food and then back pain would be back pain. I needed food. But that's not the case. And so the back pain is debilitating. But the reality is, man, is when people in this country They go on disability and their back pains might not So a lot of people in this country are on long-term and they are victims to the system. And we can blame a lot of things, right? But the reality is what you're going through is And I think that so you are suffering for a year now in and you've learned other people in the system and oh, if you hurt yourself, it's going to take you two and then two months to get the MRI. And it's like, that's crazy. Right? And so I want to validate that like, as a nurse, this is something I live in every No, totally. Every day. And it sucks. And some people get cancer. Some people get back pain and their whole lives turn and they have to sell their homes. They have to move into, it's horrible. And so I always validate and say, I'm really sorry. I recently hurt my back. And so I see you even clearer with my own back And I think it's a common thing, you know? But I know that that back pain that is very valid, triggers your childhood religious shit. Oh, totally. Just like how capitalism triggers your childhood Yeah. So like any pain, the anxieties, right? I don't know. That's why I'm kind of getting at is like, do you when you feel like a victim, do you feel like most of the time? It's, I can't say direct, no. I mean, it's multiple things. I don't think all of us are meant to be in capitalistic We were just talking about this. I think capitalism is not good for humanity. And I have a really tough time with capitalism. I think that ties to my religious trauma, ties to is being a pastor's kid. I didn't know capitalism and never learned And then I wasn't in school till super late. And so having to like learn this idea of like, you're and you have to work hard because you live in It's like, it's hard. It's really, capitalism is so tough for me. And to do it a lot of the time, especially like in where you start your own business or your a lot of times you have to feel kind of selfish and And we never did that as kids, dude. We gave our time, we volunteered. And so it's just like, I end up doing too much and And I'm a victim to that. And so, but yeah, it's portioned out. I think being in this society is a big victim to I'm a big victim to it. I feel it, but it comes from being raised a victim They're kind of tied. But yeah, man, that's what I'm dealing with. And it's very prevalent in my life. And I have good days and bad days. Today's a better day. Good. Yeah. Yesterday was a very tough day. It's nice to have a better day when you podcast. Yeah, it is. It's easier to talk about. But at the same time, the conversations we've had when we're in a lot of pain are so real. It's so real. Yeah, so you, my friend. First, good job. Thanks, man. I thought that went pretty good. I mean, like, I know we're talking about this is the We talk about regularly. Yeah, I know. And so regularly, man, if I've learned anything, you start to learn that people don't like to hear Yeah, it gets annoying after a while. And for me, it's so much anxiety because it's so That every once in a while, I just have to be like, dude, I just gotta let you know I'm in so much pain Especially with my fiance. But I get it, man. Like, the littlest bit of that nerve back pain hits life just gets a little bit harder. Everything gets a little bit harder. Disassociation, it's real. I'm sorry. But I think, like, before we transition to talk about like, you talk about the meditation. We talked about how in a capitalistic way, sure, Capitalism. Yeah. So you're a victim to the fucking capitalism. Yeah, yeah. That's triggering the religious trauma. We talked about how there are ways that you're if you take a step back and look at, like, Zachary's I see you extremely successful because I know Yeah. And I know you feel the same way about me. 100 percent. And so life is never one thing. And I know that victimhood, these triggers, makes all You know, it's really hard to remember that life is a life is extremely chaotic. And accepting and surrendering to that chaos And so I know you want more, but I want to I want you to keep performing it because I and I know with the back pain, it's hard, and I know But what you just shared with me was that your imagining your dream and then telling me about it, is the work and dedication it takes to perform on a and to be that awkward space, to put you into that When I've seen you living that, it is some of the like, not, you're not a victim as much. And so that's why I love this podcast. I love being on a stage, too, because I'm just like I'm not a front man with a guitar. But it's important for you and I to be doing that, to be, like, realizing that our dreams are here and And we know capitalism confuses us. So that's my encouragement. Keep doing that. Yeah, thanks, man. No, I feel it. Yeah. But let's mix it up. Let's move on over to the one. The only, not just joking. Now you've, uh, just like me, you've been going You've been dealing with a lot of anxiety recently. I'll just put it out there. Yeah, it's true. Anxiety. You've had huge life moments in your life. We just had your reception here in this beautiful Talk about me performing. You performed at my wedding party. Beautiful wedding. Probably the best performance I've ever seen I think it was the best performance I've ever had It's filmed and we have it. We have it, yeah. And I looked good, man. That long hair is looking good. And then directly after that, a couple, not even having another reception with all of Megan's family, emotions, so much emotions. And you've been dealing with a lot of shit. But you've been dealing with a lot of shame right How do I jump in? How do I get intimate about this? Well, how about let's just start real just more in the however it's confronting you. What is it like? How is it interacting with your day-to-day? Well, I will say that the acute things that happened, are anything, we're not that special. I think we're just like everybody else. We're just having a podcast and talking about it. So that's what makes us different, I guess, unless But the shame, we've talked about shame so much on this We've interviewed people. A lot of people we've interviewed talk about to the church. And so the way the shame has been feeling is like, my entire life. The way that I've been aware of that being shame talking to you about victimhood and when did you was in that class, it's like it's really easy to be from pure toxic shame. You can just stuff that shit down and throw back a right? And I think that a lot of people do that. So that's what I did do that for a long time, like to understand my shame and how that shame came out. And so if you ask me, what does this shame feel like It feels like my childhood is like whatever shame I I was suppressing a lot, I'm feeling it now. That's how it's felt. And so I've had some childish, like teenage-like And for somebody that dealt with anger, anger That was my go-to was anger. I mean, I've always cried. I've just been a super dramatic emotional person more now when I'm dealing with past trauma or shame So much crying, like it's like annoying because I'm But recently with this shame, because of how real outbursts. Like one bad one. And it was like first time, like, you know, it's like You're like, oh, now I got to reset the clock. And got angry again. I got angry for the first time in a year and like, And so that's how it feels, I guess. Makes me angry. Makes me angry thinking about it. Makes me super, super, super scared. And so I cry. Makes me feel hell alone. Yeah, yeah. And earlier this year, I, you know, I've talked about I went on a meditation plant retreat and all with and to deal with religious trauma and to put myself a person that doesn't attack my issues. Like I want to be free of the weights in my life. And so I did that the beginning of the year with anxiety besides like around my life to do it. And like, I just haven't been dealing with shame and all this year. I came back from that retreat. We had my bachelor party together. You mean two very good friends where we all And then so the beginning of the whole first half of plant medicine and close friends to have like some like healing experiences with each other. And then there was these wedding parties and there in family and whatnot. And out of nowhere about a month ago, some pretty like itself from deep within my life and my body and just Some of those things being childhood things that The first sexual experiences I ever had in against me. And so basically there was like trauma, sexual trauma it came and I needed somebody. Like that's why we have therapists, right? It's like, Oh my God, I don't, I've known about about these things and I've never talked about these dealing with it. And it's like, so the abuse has happened at me, the whatever. I don't want to get too personal, honestly, into they haunted me like a bad nightmare. And like this, sorry, if you hear that in the right up the street. Legit a couple fences. When in the past, when like being like a single person in my past would come up, like I never, you know, you it. It's just like, Oh, this is what it is. But when there's somebody in your life that loves you it with them. Do you, do you not? Right. That's the question. And I'm somebody that shares everything, Not many other, not many, but not many other people. Right. But like, I don't want to be holding on to these at me, things that have, I've been a part of that I I had no real control over and just suppressed and to have had chosen to live my life with religious So that's why I've been dealing with shame was I I have never confronted in my life, which is so weird two and a half years, to have a therapist for five retreats year after year, and then out of nowhere, But maybe all that work you've been doing has this shame. Yeah, and being married and the parties and love and There's so many people that love me. I'm able to, so much pressure getting these And then it was just like, I'm a married man. I've been married since February, but everything's And it was just kind of like, who am I now? Boom. Who have I been? What has happened to me? And it was just super haunting. And so I think the shame has come from, I've been have happened to me and things that I've And there's been no awareness of what that And now that I know I am dealing with it now, it's like, pull up some past demons and see how it Totally, man. Yeah. And so that's been, we're married and we're growing could imagine. And I honestly feel like over the last month, I was 15, the things that happened to me in my later son came into my life, all the family cord I had to go that time, yeah, I'm having to deal with some of the with them and it's been extreme. I've had a lot of shame. And it's weird because the whole beginning of the And I think in this experience, I never lost What's been powerful is I've had all the tools that over the last however many years. But what are these tools to talk about? Like, remember last year, same retreat and I became Yeah. That is probably the major tool that has gotten me with the shame is when I feel like this is part of Like nobody understands me. The whole world's against me. I've been cursed. My past hurts those that I love when I, it's not even, there's like this connection to past trauma done in my life is a problem and it hurts Even though I know deep down inside, I'm just And yet me figuring it out hurts everybody. And so that can happen in my own marriage. That can happen in my relationship with even like But that used to happen with you all the time And this, even though I've known a lot, like this to really that time period when I was about 16, 17 and did break apart. That has had like, this experience has shown me how on all of my relationships. Just that experience and not dealing with it and not that at all, ever. And so when shame hits me, like, it feels like it just person that loves, the people that love me most of their lives. And so shame can make me go there. It's eating, that's just consuming the shame, being could even love me anyway. Yeah. Yeah, man, it's heavy. Where, if at all, do you think, or could it even be Shame. Yeah. Toxic shame. Yeah, I think like, because you're in these positions, bit, you're in these positions at a young age, These things happen to you, whatever, you're in these Is it that period of time, you leaving the church, house, relationship with your parents fell apart? Those traumas embedded right there, are you able the religion, or is it more tied towards parental? Well, I do think it's both. I think that when it comes to my romantic when I think of the relationship I had with mom are intimate family relationships. My wife is my family, my son is my family. And so the shame can feel very familial because my had happened in my life, were with other people, And me and my wife are an intimate couple and you and And I've had an intimate relationship with my intimate relationship with my son. So I feel like my head and my body, my body trauma is year where I feel really, my fear is that everything having to suffer more, like my whole life is suffering figure out my life. And what happened was I got kicked to the curb and then Why couldn't I say no to that scary situation? Why couldn't I say no to this or that? And that's been the question. Why didn't I ever say no? Why did I find myself in positions that really hurt And they hurt me in the moment and caused extreme And then a week would go by with no sleep. And then I would end up calling my dad because I all my anxiety would go away. So there was like that connection to my parents I would get this, any bad thing that I would do. It was like honesty. It was like taught to me so strongly that it was like, You feel guilty. You come and tell me your guilt will go away and So it was like this feeling of like, I'm scared. I've done something wrong. I'm so guilty. I've done something wrong. So I go tell my parents and it's like, thank you for For a month. And I'm like, I'd rather be grounded with no anxiety Yeah, it almost makes grounded feel good. So it was almost like when you asked me was it, it has learning how to like separate from their At least I hope people want to do that, right? That's what we're doing. But because our parents were pastors, radical and pastors for like 30, 25 or whatever years, that that the shame is embedded not only in that relationship, And so not only was that happening in my life with would go to God the whole time. God, please forgive me for everything I've done. And that would relieve anxiety. Thank you, Jesus, for forgiving me for saying the Right? That's an eight year old nine year old saying, thank me so that when anything I do. And so I think a lot of things that happened in my like, damn, like, even though I wasn't doing, it It was just anything in life that's like anything So there was like this feeling of like, bad, my And that was reinforced by being kicked out and not So I was like, you're a bad boy. And I'm like, I'm a bad boy. And then it was like, I do bad things. Yeah, bad boys have to do bad things. I have to do bad things. And then bad things would happen to me. And I'd be like, I don't want this bad thing to And I couldn't say I couldn't stop it. And then it was like, let's go ahead and never tell Yeah. And so the question has been, why didn't you think somebody that's been so hyper aware of mental Like there's like 17 different angles of trauma Yeah. So you're asking this question of why. And I don't think there's ever going to be an answer I don't think that, but it's important for me to it might not be like, you know, the most important I have to know why. I have to know why shame, I'm healing like in all of And we talk about that so much. And I've lived by that, like through fire to water. Like I know the moment that this trauma came up, it was I was over at your house telling you, I was like, song for our friends that we're performing for in a And we didn't practice at all. We sat at that table and I was like almost in tears some and I don't know what to do. And you were like, that's heavy. And then that next day I was like, I got to talk to I got to figure this out. I don't know how to hold this. And so, yeah, we were talking about, if we wanted talking about that time that initial anxiety and is directly related to our upbringing and how we were everything, which in a really healthy parents. There were parts of that that were very healthy. There was good parts, good parts to having that open But a lot of times it made certain things kind of If you kept getting the bad thoughts, you have to talk continuously are confessing and confessing. But it was a big part of our childhood that we all confession to our parents. Everything was sin. Everything was sin. All the good things were sin. So yeah. And so, normally it takes a handful of these you just don't talk to your parents about, but I'm getting a little sidetracked. I think that like, no, no, you're not. You're just explaining the religious trauma. So, but that's what I was going to go is, when you and anxiety, like I felt in your soul, saw in your old kid again, like, what do I do with this fear, What do I do? And it's very like IFSE. You can see the younger person. And sometimes it's like, well, I have to tell the through. Yeah. I mean, that's, in my relationship, that's a Yeah. Not everything. It's, are you suffering? Then we talk about the suffering. It's really hard for me to be in any relationship with authentic. Sometimes being honest like this causes pain, man. Yeah. And so the experience of being honest with myself help is what it is. I'm asking for help. Yeah. And in the past, when I would ask for help that reinforced with our family, with my parents and the And so how am I like, what am I learning about this You know, I have a therapist. I haven't even met with my therapist since all this And in the past, I wouldn't know what to do and get Get angry and push everyone that you love away. Away for a while and then try to figure it out and And that's not happening in my life. And I've, so I'm learning that instead of being moments where I don't want to be angry, so I'm not. So for about a week long, I was in an extremely place of having to sit with these experiences and just choices in my life have affected people and still That's something that I didn't think about most of So now I'm sitting with the fact that a lot of my at me doesn't even matter. My life affects people, those that I love. That's very important. So I'm sitting with that feeling that I affect those And how does that make you feel? The way you make the ones around you that you love Well, how it affects them. If it hurts them, my first feeling is like, oh, this This is, this is what, it's confirmation and This is, I have every romantic relationship, It's my feeling at first, it's that manipulative, It's confirmation that my 17 year old, because so And so, and because of the strange relationship I have and the lack of honesty and the lack of like seeing the where there's, there is this shame and this trauma difficult for me to not just be like, this is how This is why love is hard because I hurt people and And so I really, I, I'm a nurse. I am, I perceive myself to literally take extreme and safe around me in many different ways. So when the people I love most are shocked by who definitely makes me feel fucking horrible. Yeah. And really scared. And instead of sitting in that and just letting that the relationship and trusting the love, what I I have to, I have to be alone because I learned, That when I was experiencing that shame was like leaders in the church were upset with me. Youth pastors were telling me I was living in sin. Older women in the church, like motherly roles that now disowning me. So there was like a lot of like shame being And so like that can be, that's so powerful in my that's just how it is. So this relationship now is not doing good because I I know what happens now. And so, of course, none of that happens. But there is a period of time where like you have to And during that processing, I'm sitting in that pain. And it's torturous. But like, I know like this time around that week, was able to recognize the headspace. And I lived in that headspace for a couple of But the difference was instead of just being fuck I like am alone. Is instead of it just being that, right? Every thought was like, you know what? Nobody fucking gets me. And then right after that, it'd be like, Nathan, I It's me. And I'd be like, I hear you. And I just would be like, I love you. I got work in my car all day long in the shower. It was like, talk about neurosis. Like it was neurotic. Or I'd be like, fuck, nobody gets me, man. I love you too. Yeah. I love you so much, man. Yeah. And pure love. That is the hard work. Yeah. And that's what I've been able to benefit from in yeah, living your shame, that toxic shame. Yeah, did you get kicked out? Like that's the internal voice. Like it's good for you, man. That's what you deserve. This is what your life is. And it's like, let's move that aside. And now it's like the 17 year old self being like, I on my own. And that mother is like, yeah, dude, it makes sense. Why you got to figure that out on your own? Makes a lot of sense. Yeah. You're okay. And you've helped with that a lot too. Yeah. That you have that softness. And so does my wife. It's, but real sexual trauma that comes up is not And so I'm proud to say that like five years of feel like I really am healing from religious Yeah. I really do, man. And I feel like I am, I feel like I'm opening up a I'm meeting with my therapist next Friday. So I have a lot to start talking about when it comes I'm ready to do it. So I have a lot to learn and I'm sure we can have about what I learned about how to like about these And so I have a lot to learn. And I think that like, that's, I'm excited about I'm also like shocked because for a while I've to get, started to get certain things. Yeah. And that's, I don't ever want to necessarily feel our past. Totally. Yeah. More and more. And so now I'm getting, I'm becoming freer. It's just, it's a brutal process. It's a brutal process. Yeah. And that's the work we're doing here, man. We are doing work here, sitting in this podcast to ourselves, openly keeping religious trauma in our own. It's this healing and we're documenting it here and And it's really important to us because I say I'm too. And through my own therapy and it's been really lovely own healing as well. Ditto. And watching you go through really tough things with know, tumble into more problems, but more of Yeah. It's beautiful. I think it shows the growth that we really had growing I agree, man. I really do feel the same way about you. And I think that what's, because I know that you and times where we really do need each other and we're And that way that when we're both suffering with Like we're fucking dramatic. And we get hella scared and it can feel in those victimhood plays in my life so much of the shame too. I know the shame plays in yours. When those times are like really hard, I really feel any sort of healing in my life, like in those And I think that that's pretty normal when we're pain or whatever. These are the things like painful experiences make us And so I don't think I'm supposed to do this alone. I'm not supposed to figure out how to hold toxic shame I'm not supposed to understand how to hold past alone. And so it's my wife and you. And using this platform as a public display of also Well, there's something about being public with it That's like letting it go. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm very thankful for you. And me and my wife are like opposites. You and I are pretty much opposites in many ways. We're similar. That me and my wife have a romantic relationship and bond that has different processes. And you and I have gone through such hard times to we can just be there for each other. And so I'm so thankful for my wife. We've really grown a lot though. And so I'm extremely thankful for you. Just like, I don't think we're supposed to get No, man. We're humans. And it's never one thing. It's not black and white. It's not just religious trauma. But for us, you know, hopefully this of being able to talk to my wife about her past and her to people and things and how to say no to things and people has really shown me how different I really am experience. And so, yeah, that's just one other person though, No, I know. And I think everyone has, but like, it's pretty So I know the church and having pastors, parents in effects on my childhood and teenage years and twenties Yeah. Like, right? Like, so. Well, I've got to know you a hell of a lot better And especially having more empathy and understanding because of my shit that I was going through during recognized your position in that. And this talking about your healing, how your trauma is many different ways. And then letting myself trying to realize, like, been in your shoes being put in that situation and and the person you became during that time. It's just like, ah, man, I'm so happy we're healing. Yeah. Cause it's just like, it's again, I don't blame anyone There's normally a story to everything. And just, if you're not hurting other people while to heal through it, but. Well, I definitely see, feel seen by you, And you were there every, there are a lot of it. And I feel it's as simple as that, that when I'm and fear, I'm so scared to be seen. So scared to be seen. I never felt like my parents to this day don't So I don't, I don't know how to be seen, but I know I love, there's just like maybe 75% release. Yeah. Thank you for seeing me. I'm just a person. And so you saying that is powerful. I know that. And I see you too. And so I think being seen as such a huge part of And so it's nice being seen. Yes. And it's nice sitting outside underneath this Yeah. I feel like we're coming to the end here. This has been really nice. It's not easy doing it, but I feel like we did a pretty Yeah. It's also like, it's just hard not to get too personal lives and we have other people that are And so it's, it's like hard to talk about deep things basis with the people that you love the most in your them too, or not talk about things that involve them. And so it's also difficult in that way. Yeah. But it has been really nice sitting out here. Yeah. Thanks for the true fans out there. I don't know. Just people that, I wouldn't call you fans, and talking about, have a lot of gratitude for this And we definitely wish more people were seeing it and And so we're going to keep going at it. Yeah. We have some fun, fun things. We have a lot of talks that are really exciting, but we And so we're trying to make it all work. We're trying to also get a tiny bit more capitalistic got to do to survive in this busy. Yeah. As in like trying, we're looking for a producer. We are, we had nothing to pay you yet, but if you're can be part of the team. You don't have to be on our podcast. We would like someone to be helping us. But if you don't want to help us, we don't find it, But we also want to start a Patreon and start making the scenes, a little more raw, not filtered. We filter a lot of stuff out. And like the break that was in this podcast was us leave in. And it was a wonderful conversation. And right when we got in, I was like, should we just It was so good. So certain things like that, we want to add in just to give the public a place to be able to support because it does take a lot of work and it does take up And so I feel like we keep getting to points in this always call them growths, where it's like, it feels want to say fall apart, but just like there's too much and it kind of gets easy and smooth again. And then it gets like, it's going to pop and then it And so we've been going through a growth right now I'm super excited for what we have coming to this we have made. Yeah, we're hopefully going to be doing another That's cool. Yeah, we have some very interesting people that to have on. And so we're figuring out, we're putting some puzzles It's really exciting. I'm excited for what we got coming. And we'll see how this outside podcast with the Yeah, I'm interested to see how it turns out because to right here. Every once in a while, a big ass dog starts barking to stay in it. Also the wind. It's gonna be great. Yeah, it's gonna be great. And so we'll see. We'll see how it turns out. AI is a pretty fun thing these days. Yeah, we'll see. I'm about to clean something up. And no game cam. First time ever in our 80 episodes. First ever solo podcast without a game cam. Which is fine. I guess maybe not the first because we didn't implement But first since we really got Moral Combat going, I guess that's it, huh? That's it. Good job, man. Love you. Yeah, it's good shit. Thank you, everybody. Thanks for listening, everyone. I guess it'll be a couple weeks. We'll see you soon. If you do get this from the podcast, just know the best it on YouTube. And we would love to hear your guys' comments on it. We get a lot of comments from Christians, that's for And we would love to just hear, like, if you liked love to hear it because your guys' input really, Yeah, it drives the conversation. There was a comment that somebody made, a really big we are and I know who you are. Well, we know we know you. Yeah, I don't know who you are, but the comment was all from Calvary Chapel. Panel of women. Panel, is that what it was? I think so. I think so. But we'd love to do that. It's a little bit... Someday we might do that. For the service that we're paying for, we could We just have to just coordinate that. And it would just be a lot of files. So it would kind of be a podcast that would take a Yeah. But we could totally do it. We want to do it. Exciting things. The point is that we see that. And so if you care to give us some... What would you like to see us talk about? We are open to addressing that. Be on the lookout for some live streams too. Yeah. We want to start doing some live streams, getting your of hanging out and maybe planning the podcast on a Yep. But other than that, thanks for being a Moral Combat Yep. Until next time. Until next time. Thank you everybody. Thank you for being here. Bye. Bye.