Autumn Fesler, Surviving the Independent Baptist Church and Reclaiming Life | Ep 82 | Moral Combat Artwork

Moral Combat Podcast

Moral Combat is a podcast hosted by siblings Nathan and Zach Blaustone. Join them as they discuss their passion for music production, their experiences with religious trauma, and share some laughs along the way. With their unique perspectives and dynamic personalities, Nathan and Zach bring an engaging and entertaining take on a variety of topics. Our mission is to facilitate respectful conversations that promote growth, communication, healing, authenticity, and siblinghood. Tune in to Moral Combat for thought-provoking discussions and a good time.

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Autumn Fesler, Surviving the Independent Baptist Church and Reclaiming Life | Ep 82 | Moral Combat

September 13, 2024 • Zach & Nathan Blaustone / Autumn Fesler • Season 1 • Episode 82

In episode 82 of the Moral Combat Podcast, hosts Nathaniel and Zachary Blaustone interview Autumn Fesler, who bravely shares her journey of healing from religious trauma after growing up in an Independent Fundamental Baptist (IFB) church. Autumn reflects on the psychological toll of constant fear, strict rules, and control within her religious upbringing, including traumatic experiences like being shamed for immodest clothing and the emotional trauma of her mother's public expulsion from the church. She explains the liberating process of reclaiming her identity and finding peace outside of religion, while also discussing the struggle with "fawning" behavior and setting boundaries with her family and former religious community. The episode delves into larger issues of race, gender, and deconstructing deeply ingrained beliefs. Autumn's resilience shines through as she shares her desire to become a religious trauma therapist, offering advice to others on the healing power of self-worth, autonomy, and embracing discomfort to foster growth. The conversation is a deeply human exploration of how to rebuild after leaving a restrictive faith and offers hope for those navigating similar journeys.

Autumn Fesler

Moral Combat, hosted by siblings Nathan and Zach Blaustone, is a heartfelt exploration of life's complexities, with a primary focus on healing from religious trauma. Step into their world as they navigate the realms of music production, confront the lingering echoes of religious trauma, and embrace laughter as a universal healer. With each episode, Nathan and Zach weave together their unique perspectives, seasoned with dynamic personalities that make every discussion an engaging adventure. From unraveling the complexities of personal growth to fostering open communication, healing the scars of religious indoctrination, and embracing the unfiltered authenticity of siblinghood, Moral Combat is your passport to thought-provoking conversations, heartfelt insights, and the pure joy of shared moments. Join us in the combat for morality, one conversation at a time.

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Hello, Moral Combat fans. What's up everybody? Yeah, what's up everybody? Welcome to another episode of the Moral Combat podcast. I'm one of your hosts, Nathaniel. And I'm your other host, Zachariah. It's Zachariah. I don't know, I just used your full name. You just come in with a biblical name. Yeah, thanks for the early trigger. It's Zachary. It is. Or Zach. Yeah, welcome to the Moral Compat podcast. Zachary, what do we exactly do? Why do we have a podcast? What are we talking about on our podcast? What are we doing here? We talk about religious trauma. Yes, this is a hot name now. It's spreading throughout the internet slowly and becoming more well known. What exactly, why do we talk about religious trauma? We talk about religious trauma because we come from a family with our father as a pastor in the non-denominational church religion of Christianity known as Calvary Chapel. Yes, better known as the death cult of Christianity. Of Christianity. Calvary Chapel, brutal. Yeah, our dad's been a pastor for like 25, 30 years. Our mother's also ministered with him for 25, 30 years. They were in ministry before we were born. So we were just born into it. I walked away from Christianity when I was about 15. Zach walked away and he was like 18. So we've been out of the game for like 12, 13, 15 years. Something like that. Yeah, and we've spent many episodes talking about our own experience with religious trauma, all of the healing that we've had over the years. This podcast has been an amazing source of healing for us just to have a public conversation around our experiences and our family, what it was like getting out of the family, getting out of the church, all that shit. So if you want to, you can go back and watch all those episodes. Or stick with us right now, because we have a very special guest with us, in-house, well actually not in-house, there. As in-house as you can get. As in-house as you can get. Without being in-house. Through the intertubes. Yes, very special guests that we have connected with through the social media. The religious trauma community online, on YouTube, Instagram, is growing. But it's still a small community, and those of us that are sharing our story, creators in it, we're all slowly starting to get to know each other. And so with us today, we have a very special guest who has been sharing more of her story with her own podcast. Handful of episodes. We connected and we said, we gotta have you on our podcast. We'd love to hear your story. So with us today, let's give a very warm welcome to Autumn Thesler. Yay! Hi! Yeah, yeah. The crowd goes wild! Put in the applause. Put in the applause. Welcome, Autumn. Thank you for being here. How are you doing? I'm nervous, but I'm good. I mean, we're here, we made it, right? We made it. We did, yes. And I always am so candid and open on this podcast. There's always little tech issues. We got through the tech issues in about an hour. That's not bad. That's not bad. Not bad at all. Not bad at all. Because we know what we've been through, so that's really good. It could be worse. But yeah, we always get a little bit nervous. We've had our phone call with you like a week and a half ago, right? Which is just to kind of like break the ice. But being here now on the cameras with the mics, it's like every single fucking time I get nervous and like overly excited. It makes it fun, man. It's gonna be fun. We're gonna do great. How are you feeling? Why do you feel nervous about this coming on our podcast? Okay, that is a good way to start. Well, I think y'all know religious trauma is just so much fun to talk about. I think it comes with the people pleasing, how it was so ingrained in us. Well, me specifically, where it's like, oh my gosh, I don't wanna say anything and upset somebody. If I'm wrong, I'm gonna hurt their feelings or something like that. That's where I come from with it, where it's just like, I don't wanna be saying the wrong thing and then have everybody mad at me. But at the same time, I'm coming out of that and being like, you know what? It doesn't matter what anybody else thinks. I have to have this for myself. And if I think something's wrong, or just if I feel a certain way about something, I can say it because I can. I have the autonomy to say it. So it's still a little nerve wracking. I got you. Yeah. Totally. I got you. There's literally nothing you could say about this that would ever be wrong. Everyone's story, whether it's religious trauma or whatever else trauma, that's part of the process is purging that. And I just feel like, especially with the way we were all raised, there's so many different ways people have responded to this trauma. There's a lot of similarities. And so I'll just tell you, there's nothing you could say that would be wrong. Good, thank you. Dealt with that. Dealt with that. Now you're not nervous. Yeah, oh no, I'm good. You solved it, Nate. Thank you. You solved it. Perfect. Let's go. Yeah, unless Zach, do you have any piercing questions before we start or do you want me to just get it going? Piercing questions. Nah, all you, you got this. I gotta ask this first question. Even though we talked on the phone, we don't know anything about your story. The goal is to just talk together and learn your experience and your healing and where you're at now today, right here live on our podcast. But I gotta ask you, why do you, why do you wanna bring your story? Like, why do you wanna go public? Why would you wanna come on our podcast to share this vulnerable piece of who you are? What's your purpose here? I believe that people speaking about their experiences, especially when it's something like religion, Christianity, anything like that. I believe that when you speak about it, it loses power over you. I feel like it's coming out of that fear that has been saturated into us for so long. And I feel like it's just powerful. And there's people who might come across, you know, some video or something just kind of like me. That's kind of how I got into like the deconstruction world, especially on social media. When you are questioning all these things and then you hear somebody else speak out on it and you're like, oh my gosh, I'm not the only one. Or you can relate to something. It literally does something, I know personally for me, inside that's just, it almost gives you like the courage and like this boost. And for me, it's been extremely healing to know that you're not alone, to find your voice, to be able to share like what you went through and be like, yeah, I went through this. Nobody's gonna tell me to be quiet. Nobody's gonna shame me anymore. I'm not gonna let that guilt and shame just keep holding me back from speaking out because there's so many people that are helped by hearing other people's stories. And that's where I got to from being literally one of the, a teenager passing out tracks, you know, every Saturday and just seeing anybody that doesn't go to the church, you're like, their blood's on my hands if I don't tell them about Jesus and just constantly be in a state of worry, fear and anxiety, a different kind. And then now being on this side where it's like, there's so much peace and there's so much true joy and happiness that comes from, I don't care what, you know, you're not gonna hold this over me anymore. You do not have power of me. What you say, it does, it's not gonna affect me. It's actually finding your identity and like who you are. And that is a really hard place to get to when you're growing up in the church. And especially, and like for me, the cult of, you know, the church that I grew up in and that type of evangelical. And I just feel like we want everybody to have the best life that they have. Like we want what, you know, for others what we want for ourselves. We want peace, we want security. And it's funny because so many times people feel like they have that security with, you know, oh, I know 100% sure that when I die, I'm gonna go to heaven. But there's still like this fear of like, well, what if I prayed this prayer for like 100 times just to make sure that I'm saved and I go to heaven. And then now it's like, I don't ever worry about that kind of stuff anymore because it's just, I have so much less fear and worry. And now it's just, I'm so like at one with myself and peaceful and it's something that they promised us through Jesus or through the Bible or through being a Christian back then. And now it's like, I've actually found that and oh my gosh, it's outside of what y'all told me it was gonna be. Like I found it for myself and it feels great. And like, I feel like other people, I just feel like other people need to see that and they need to know like, hey, you're okay, there's hope. Like it isn't all doom and gloom and like, everybody's gonna die and this and this. And I don't know, that's just, that's how I feel. I know that was kind of long, but. No, that was like really beautiful. That's a clip. I just wanna say, that's amazing. Yeah, I just wanna say, I'm so happy for you. It sounds like where you're at today, like now you've made so much progress, the way you're expressing that, right? That to answer that question shows a lot of like where you, it's a hard one, right? Like why are you here being public about this? And I felt like it makes a lot of sense why you're here doing this, right? To like in a way, especially when we're all raised Christian, right? We are, we feel like we have to give our lives to save people, like I so relate with that fear. And yet here we are, we're still here kind of sacrificing ourselves a little bit, but it's in a completely different, right? It's almost like we were trained to do it in the cult. And then now that we're out of it, it's like, well, I was, I'm the best at this. What are you talking about? I'll sacrifice myself. You got the skills. Yeah, exactly. And the difference is that we're not talking with non-believers. We are the non-believers talking to each other, helping each other in our non-beliefs, right? So it's just a whole different, we're not gonna mix with other people's religions. We're not gonna tell Christians what they believe is wrong. I'm not gonna like, it's more of like live and let live. And then if there's a culture that's demeaning women and suppressing people's identity and telling you, you can't be who you are, then I'm gonna be like, damn, the culture around that religion sounds horrible. And then you can go into the Bible and be like, oh, all the verses in the Bible are bad too. So I guess this religion's pretty, you know. It's interesting how you brought up the live and let live, because Autumn, you can comment on this if you want. We were raised to think that that's what Christians were doing is like, well, no, we let the sinners sin, but they really don't, you know? They like enforce their religion onto other people, but they're doing it in- Hate the sin, love the sinner. Exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's just not true. You're probably gonna see it on this podcast. Just look at the comments. There's gonna be someone that's probably commented and been like, you know, it's so nice that you have this great and happy life. Unfortunately, you're gonna burn in hell. Unfortunately, it's wrong. Yeah, but we're praying for you, sinner heathen. To find the right path, the one true way that we know and nobody else does, right? Yeah, there's only one way in their eyes. It's very true. It's so damaging to the psyche if you're born in it like we were, right? What was the one true way? Like, were y'all like King James version only? Because I know you said your mom was a pastor, and see, that's- He says that. So Nate likes to say our mom was a pastor. Our mom was just a pastor with our dad, under our dad. Yeah, I mean, she ran women's groups. Women's groups, children's ministry. They're a power couple, man. They like go into this together. They're spearheading this or that. They were a duo. And so in my eyes, like the more I've healed, it's like, I put a lot of pressure on our dad. The Christian pastor dad, you know? But it's like, no, you guys did this together. You guys are parents together. You reinforced each other. She's like the stay-at-home pastor with the kids. But Autumn brings a good point. She said, are you guys the new King James version? We are. We were raised to believe that the new King James version is the only interpretation that you should believe. Or the best interpretation. The most accurate interpretation. The most accurate, yeah. Is it new King James or the OG King James? New King James. New King James. Which is triggering to even say, okay? You're an old school Baptist, are you not? Where did you, what type of church were you born in? Like, what was the non-denomin- or denomination? It was independent fundamental Baptist. So the IFB. Ah, there it is. So we, they're, you know, they're the only ones that believe that they're independent of the Baptist, Southern Baptist, any other Baptist, even though they all had churches that were literally identical all across America and the world with their same beliefs. But yeah, so ours were, no, you couldn't wear pants. Women had to wear skirts below their knees. You couldn't have a split in your skirt. You couldn't have two splits. You had to safety pin one up if there was two. You had to be like two fingers below your collarbone. I'm sinning right now. Oh my God, I'm a harlot. And then you had to like save yourself for marriage. Obviously alcohol was like Satan's, you know, like you're not even supposed to be. I remember going in grocery stores and you're walking down the aisle and you can't go down the aisle that had beer. You're like, oh my God, I can't, I'm sinning. What if, you know, the appearance of sin, right? Like you weren't even allowed to be seen doing anything kind of sketchy, you know? No movie theaters, no music with a beat. Like no drums, nothing, uh-uh. Oh shit, yeah, so yours is a little bit more aggressive. No concerts, no movie theaters. So like you legitimately, did you not, when was the first time you went to a movie theater? Well, okay, so this is a funny story. I went, my mom, so she was like on and off going to the church. She went for a while, tried when we were younger. And then when we started getting older, she's like, I fucked that place. I am not following that man. I'm not following what he says because he's not even preaching the Bible. He's preaching his version. And she's like, it's dumb, I'm gonna wear pants. And she smoked since she was about like 10 years old. So she was like, I've tried to quit, but like I can't. It's not really that big of a deal. But the church was like, oh, what a wicked sinner. Like, oh, she's so evil and awful. Cigarettes or marijuana? No, just like, well, I don't know. They probably, they did that before. My parents lovely did that before we were born. And the parts that I can't remember, I'm sure they were doing that. But so when I was about maybe 12, 13, the Scooby Doo movie came out. Like the real one, it was like, what is it? Freddie Prinze Jr. Like the live, yeah, right, right, right, right. So that one came out and my mom was like, don't tell your dad, we're gonna go watch it. And we're like, oh my God, yes. Like we could not wait. But at the same time, there was like a part of me that was like, but we're sinning. Like, oh no, mom's like, just don't tell your friends or anything. Like, it'll be fine. So we go there and we're watching. I'm thinking like, oh my God, this is like the best thing ever. And we were obsessed with Scooby Doo. Anyway, I only have an older sister that's about two and a half years older than I am. But so we go in there with my mom and it starts storming outside and it's like thundering and lightning and the lights go out in the theater. And I'm like, God's judging us. Like God knows I'm in here. Like I'm sinning. And he was like, oh man, I'm gonna judge you so hard. And I was like, oh, I was so terrified like as a kid because I mean. Oh, how traumatic. Oh yeah. But yeah, I didn't see a movie after that for a long time. So I was like in college. Wow, wow. That's pretty extreme Baptist. I don't think I've ever actually met someone that had that many tricks. We definitely have it. We've never interviewed somebody that's had that like, this idea of it being like an independent Baptist, right? So like how you described how they're like better. They're the more Christian than these Christians. That's how our experience was. Like Calvary Chapel started like in the 60s and 70s cause they were like more Christian than the other Christians. There's a lot of these things in this religion. There's always men being like, we're better than that man. So I'm gonna start my own sector. What it is is the beef between all of the pastors. I feel like it's like this pastor pisses this one off. So they're gonna go do their own thing. And it's like, once you get older and start like realizing like what went down and you're like, wait a minute. Oh, that's why that happened. Probably a hundred percent. It's a very dog eat dog world in the Christian church culture. We've learned across all denominations, most of the leaders, we always bring like these white men that are mostly the pastors of all these Christian churches besides the black church, right? Are like extremely sexist, toxic masculinity. And so this culture just like seeps in and there's no support. So they like are shady shit. It's all shady. And it's untaxed. And it's untaxed. Yes. Oh my gosh. Did y'all have a Christian school that y'all went to like with the church? Or did you go to public school? We didn't have enough money in our family to, the private Christian school in our area, sorry Zach, you wanna talk, you can share. Yeah, I was gonna say we couldn't afford the private school. And then we were all homeschooled for a really long time. I was homeschooled until fifth grade. My brother and sister, they were kind of like in and out of public school, but they had like a four or five year period where they were homeschooled. So mainly homeschooled, but then the end part of K to 12, we were all in public school. Yeah, I went back to public school in seventh grade with my Bible in my backpack that first day of school, have no memory of public school. I was the weird Christian boy. It was, yeah, I was cringe. I would preach the gospel to people. I was leader of the Christian club, seventh and eighth grade. Bless your heart. But that's all it took, man. Yeah, dude. That's all it took. It took two years and then you were like, I'm not doing this shit no more. I was like, you know, dude. Like when our parents took me out of sex ed twice and I was being made fun of, I was like, yo, dude, I don't really wanna be made fun of for this anymore. I gotta go to sex ed. Oh my God, yeah, sex ed was not even, like we had, I had kindergarten at a Christian school that was like close to us. And then first and second grade I was homeschooled, which means I played Barbies all day, which is very disturbing, yes. Because like, I'm like, maybe I really needed first and second grade. No. Oh my God. So important. I relate so much to that, Autumn. I'm talking about my telephonics, right? Oh my God. Yes, dude. But my dad was a car salesman, so he had really long hours, like all the time. We barely saw him except for church and when he got home late at night. But my mom had back surgery and she was, she got addicted to pain pills from that and was for the rest of her life. But so she would be on the couch and we're just like, okay, are we supposed to do school? Like, what are we supposed to do? I'm like, yeah, I'm playing Barbies. Like, come on, let's go. So me and my sister would like play Barbies all day. Then I went back to the Christian school that I was at for kindergarten for third grade. And I remember my mom wrote me out like this multiplication table thing. And she was like, if you ever need this, just pull it out of your desk and like use it. I'm like, okay, perfect. Because I don't need, what are multiplication tables? Like, I don't know what multiplying is. And then we go to take a test at school and I was like, oh wait, multiplication tables. And I pull out my paper and the teacher was like, what is that? I'm like, my multiplication tables. And she was like, you're cheating. You can't do that, you know that, right? I'm like, my mom said, if I needed this to pull this out, I got in so much trouble. But in my little innocent mind, I was like, well, I was just doing what my mom told me to do. But then after that fourth grade on up all the way until I graduated from a school that didn't even have, it's not accredited, which is great to find out now. But that was the church that I grew up in. That was that school and it was freaking hell. It was awful. I graduated with two girls and a missionary boy from China. Like that's it. We didn't have any boys hardly. They were all way younger than me. And it was awful. We knew a lot about like angelology and like theology and stuff, but. Angelology. That's, yeah, that's angelology. That's the study of angels. Wow. So you said that you were at the church school from third grade till 12th grade, like the rest of your schooling experiences at your church's, your ex church's like school. Oh yeah, yeah. And then they, like a lot of evangelicals do, they'll say, go to Bible college for one year. But it had to be one that lined up with the church. So it had to be King James version only, skirts. We had to wear like pantyhose to every single class. You couldn't go outside of the dorms without two people with you at all times. You had to sign in when you got back and when you left. Like, I mean, it was wild. It was awful. I was so miserable. But I went there for a year because I promised my dad, like, okay, I'll go to Bible college for a year. It's just kind of like what you did. And then after that, I was like, fuck that. That was the worst time in my life. I'm not doing that. And so I just got married right after. Cause I mean, you can't have sex, so you get married. So I was like, hell yeah, let's get married. Yeah. Yeah. Everything you're saying, there's so much to unpack here. I guess like one of the questions I just want to ask, in your experience, like, what did it feel like then as you, like in these schools, all of the rules, not being able to wear these, all the clothes you're talking about, like it's honestly, it sounds like a prison, right? It sounds like a lot of your experience was like prison of the mind, prison of your own body, prison of your own identity. What was that like? Can you, you've talked about the trauma of like a theater. So like, what was it like growing up in this, these jails, if you will? Yeah. Oh, it was. It was terrible. I mean, and it got to the point eventually, and I think it was my senior year of high school or the one right before it, where I remember specifically like, and I'm going to get dark real fast, just so you know, but looking in the mirror at myself after getting back from passing out tracks one day. And I just remember being like, I'm so fucking miserable. I just want to die. I just want to die. I don't even want to be here anymore. And I was probably 17 at the time. And that was just because like, it wasn't just one thing that I can fall back on that felt safe. Like none of it was safe. My dad and mom were, my dad was very like in with the church and with the pastor, because I think when my dad was like 26, he got saved from the pastor and he was into a lot of crazy things. Well, I say, I say crazy things now because that's what we were taught, you know, like, oh, drinking and oh my God, it's so bad. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, whatever. But it's like, for like back then he got saved from a life of sin and drugs and alcohol and partying, which all the, you know, the fun stuff. And he got saved and joined the church that I guess his parents went to. And he tried to get my mom really involved in it. And they say, my mom got saved and she did all that. And then she was like, wait, this is, this is messed up. Like this church is like, not it. And then when she started, when she started having her back pain and stuff after her surgery, she got addicted to pills and then just kind of stopped going to church. So we were still thrown in with that, like Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, we got bus routes on Sunday. We have choir practice stuff, you know, like we had to do sign language because they didn't want the teenagers or the kids to be running around the church without anything to do because they're going to get in trouble. They're going to like fool around. And I'm like, what? Like, we can't even have like one. They, they were so controlling and that's literally what it was. So then when we were growing up, it was, okay, let's get up and get ready for school. Am I going to have clothes that fit me? Am I going to be a modest? You know, there were so many things like that. And it was just like, you were always under somebody's thumb. It's not just like the parental, you know, like your parents tell you what to do. It was that hyper, like, am I going to get in trouble all the time? Like that paranoia, because you have, you're being taught that God is watching you every second of every day. You have zero privacy. When you die, your whole life is going to be replayed in front of everybody in heaven. So as a child, you have that on your mind. You have anybody who is not like right with God or like in the world, they're not saved. You know, you question their salvation. I keep doing air quotes and I'm sorry, but. That's okay. We do them all the time, all the time, yeah. Well, and then, so it's like all these burdens on you mentally and like even subconsciously that you don't even realize because you're being taught, you know, you're being yelled at through every sermon, you know, and then you're going to school and you're, it's like, you can't do anything right. Like I had a really hard time in school because I have, like I can't, I can't just, it may be ADHD or something. Like I don't know, I haven't been diagnosed with it, but it sure sounds like it. But, and just chronically anxious. Like I have been diagnosed with chronic anxiety and now see PTSD because it was chronic PTSD. I mean like continuous, like it's not just religious. It's home life, religious, relationships, you know, it's like so many different factors. And I think the biggest part of like the thing that affected me the most with all of that, I had my home life going on. Like we were always getting in trouble. Like I got spanked all the time. And that was one of the most psychologically damaging things especially like when you're getting spanked, it's like, I'm doing this because I love you. This hurts me more than it hurts you. You know why we're doing this, right? So I'd always be like, daddy, I'm not saved anymore. Like I want you to lead me to Lord because I'm doing this because I'm not saved. And it's like, I was trying to do whatever I could to get out of it. But we had like every Sunday, we had to memorize all these Bible verses because we had the program King's Kids. And if I didn't say three pages of Bible verses, I got in trouble every Sunday. So I dreaded coming home Sunday night because how am I supposed to like, I mean, I'm a child. How am I supposed to keep up with memorizing all this stuff? And I think the biggest part was the dress for me. I was very uncomfortable in my body, very skinny, lanky. You know, back then I was, everybody asked me like, did you walk in here on the chicken or something? Like, because my, you know, I had chicken legs or they would always like touch on like parts of your body. Like, you know, oh wow, you're not fully developed or you're not this and this. Like making fun of things like that. And they joke about it, which now is so wrong. Like looking back, like don't comment, especially on a young girl's body who's like growing up, but that's everything that they would say. I don't know. I don't know where to go with that. Let me reel it back in and let me go back to the, so when you're growing into your body or you're young and you're always taught to be modest because if you're a modest, then you're causing the man to stumble and lust. And they're teaching little girls this. And so in our minds, we have, that's just one more thing that's weighing on there. And we had to wear culottes. We couldn't wear shorts or pants. And it was basically like a skirt. It's like gauchos. Do you know what gauchos are? No. They're like flowy. What are gauchos? They're like really flowy pants, but they can be shorter. Oh, I know what you're talking about. We had a guest that. No, she's had a culottes. The one that she brought up. Gauchos are not in. Okay, okay, I got you, yeah. But our culottes had to be flowy. And they, in the front, they had to be pleated past the crotch and past your butt cheeks in the back. Because if it was open, I guess, it was like, oh, it's revealing, which it's not. But tell me how that's modest when you're running in culottes and they're flying up and you can see straight up your, I mean, if you're wanting to say modest. So we always had to, I sewed my culottes because where do you find culottes? You don't, you make them. Like you add that really good. Yeah, so I remember specifically one time. I've got sent home a few times in high school because my clothes were either too short when I bent over in the back, like my skirt was too short or it was too tight. And I basically was like 100 pounds, okay. But I remember this one time, it was right after my mom had died. I was in my senior year of high school. And I was in class, which I mean, it's class. We had it kind of broken up in different rooms. But I had mostly like two male teachers, maybe one female teacher. And I was wearing a baby doll top shirt where it's like, it comes up like under your boobs, but like it's flowy underneath. And I had a camisole like up to here and that and a long jean skirt. And one of the ladies in the church came up to me and said, hey, we need you, like pulled me out of class. And I was like, okay, what is it? And she said, your shirt is too tight. You need to go home and change. And at this point, my mom had just died and I stopped eating. Like I was borderline anorexic because that was the one thing that I could control. You know, like after everybody else being so controlling and there's nothing that I could do. So I was like, all right, well, guess what? I'm gonna starve myself, you know. And it's almost like you're constantly feeling pain from everything else. And it's like another way to like soothe yourself. I know it sounds really psychotic, but I've- Not at all. Not even the slightest. That's totally normal. Yeah, I understand it. Yeah, 100%. But when they told me this, I was just like, are you kidding me? Like, I'm still like, I am so mentally fucked up right now. This is the last thing on my mind. I'm so scrawny. And who am I making stumble though? That's the thing. The male teachers, like, isn't that just so messed up? So I was like, okay, I'll go home and change. So I walked out and I called my dad and I was like, hey, they're sitting, I'm crying. I'm like, they sent me home from school because they said my shirt was too tight. And he was like, what? Like, I saw you before you left. I thought you looked fine. And I was like, yeah, well, I'm just letting you know. So I go home, change, balling all the way back to the school. And when I get out of the car, go back up to the school building, the preacher pulls up in his vehicle with the window down. He's like, hey, what's wrong? And I was like, they sent me home from school because my clothes were too tight. I'm just like trying to get it together. And he's like, come here. And he like held my hand. He was like, sitting in his car, he's holding my hand. And I'm just like, okay, like, I don't wanna do this. And I'm like, wait a minute. Because he goes, you know why we're doing this, right? I'm like, wait, so you already knew? Like, they called him and told him that they sent me home from school. You know, like, how did he already know that? Which now I'm thinking back is so stupid and like, ew, like, it's icky to me. Yeah, seriously, it's so icky. And so he's holding my hand and he's like, you know why we're doing this, don't you? And I was like, well, why? He goes, because we don't want you to be a whore like your mom, let's pray. And I was like, oh my God. I was pissed, but I was just like, when we got done praying, I was like, okay, I'm gonna go back to school, but- And how old are you? 17. So wait, the pastor actually like in the car was like, we don't want you to just be, he said the word like called your mom a whore to you? Oh yeah, he hated my mom. Fuck, man, it's pure abuse, pure abuse. Oh yeah. I don't even know what to say to that, that's ridiculous. Yeah, dude. That is absolutely, some of these pastors, man, they just deserve to be like- Dude, but also like, you know what, like that, like you're underage, they're an old man. You're in his car? They're bringing you in his car. Holding his hand? And they're calling your mom a whore. Well, I'm standing on the outside. What the fuck? Yeah, I'm sitting on the outside. Oh, you're on the outside of the car. Which is, oh, that's just all creepy. Okay, so he, I- Oh my God, that was crazy. This is where, I think this is a hard part about talking about religious abuse, especially when it involves pastors and churches. And, you know, I have cut ties with all of those people. And it was really easy because y'all know how it is, when you leave a church, it's like they kind of do that for you. Which sucks. Yeah, they're like, bye. Yeah. And it's like, you go from having this community that you're only allowed to talk to these people and nobody on the outside. Everybody else is like, oh, they'll make you sin or they'll be a bad influence or they're not saved and we need to evangelize them. And then when you come out of the church, and like, I remember the first time I posted myself in a pair of jeans, I think it was like 25, 24. And I've got so many messages from grown women asking me, did you ask the pastor if it was okay to wear jeans? And I'm like, my husband said it was okay. Which, okay, let's go back to that too. Where it's like, if I wanted to, and that was my personal conviction, I shouldn't have permission from anybody. But our identity was literally not in ourselves. It was always in the church, a daughter, a wife. It was never like just you, Autumn. It's your self, your identity. I didn't find that till honestly in the last few years, which is crazy to me. But it was like, I always put my identity in something else. And they're so good at having control over you. And but like those type of people, it's really hard because I know they tell you like, oh, well, we pour so much into you, and we pray for you, and we do this and this to you. And then it's like when you grow up and you depart from the way that you were taught, what did they say? Teach a child in the way he should go. And when he's old, he will not depart from it or something like that. Well, when you do that and you get older and you're sinning and you're backslidden, and everybody's like, oh, no, they betrayed us. We put all our prayers and time in to make sure that you are godly, you know, you do God's will and that you don't miss God's will. And then it's just kind of, it's just such a weird feeling. It's almost like you have a hole just missing like out of you that was that your entire life. And now you're out here on your own, and you're trying to deconstruct and reprogram and gain your own identity. And it is such a weird space to be in. And it's hard and it takes a lot of work. So it's hard to talk about those people in that way because it's like, I'm not trying to be hateful. I'm not trying to be bitter, because how many times have you heard, oh, you're just bitter. And it's like, no, this is trauma and abuse that happened to me. Like I can talk about it, I'm allowed to. But it's really hard when, like I feel like there's so much evil wrapped up in a lot of that church and the way that it was run. And with that preacher, which it's just so hard to talk about because they feel like they're gonna come after you and be like, how dare you talk about the man of God. And like, if I had a penny for every time I heard that, I would, might be a little, I might have something. You'd be rich. Yeah. But it was just like, especially, he hated my mom. And my dad was very close to that preacher. And so it really drove this huge wedge in our family. And now like looking back at it, like my age, I'm 34, almost 35. Oh, I did not do that. That's okay. That's okay. It's like, you're doing a good job. Thank you. Yeah, great job. You're 35, you said. But so like 35, yeah, almost 35. Yeah, I think it was mocking me because it's like, damn, you're old. No, but looking at my mom, like from that age and then at her life, if I were to put myself in her shoes, no wonder she was addicted to pain pills. No wonder, like, I don't blame her. I understand why she needed help. And instead of helping the church just, and there's a lot of people involved and I have to be really careful with what I say, but they just judged her and almost shunned her. I remember when she got churched. Do you know what church does? Like where the congregation or the pastor will bring somebody up who's in sin and who won't like repent of their ways and they'll bring them in front of the congregation and they'll be like, the church is voting to kick you out of this membership and this church, you're not welcome back because you're a sinner and you've done this and this and this. And that is so traumatizing. And I remember, I actually don't remember it. I know that it happened, but my brain has blocked it out. But when my mom got churched, I was probably 16 maybe because my dad and mom split up when I was 15. And then they finally divorced when I was 16. And then I didn't really see much of her after that. But my dad and my stepmom now, which I love them. They're great people. I don't agree with a lot of their views. Well, but that's, I mean, that's as far as I'm gonna go with that. But they wanted to get married. They were dating before my parents split up because my mom and dad were just basically living together. We were always like, oh, your mom's in sin. She's so wicked and evil. She's doing this and this. So just pray for her, just pray for her. So I was just thinking mom was this heathen and just, it was awful. But now that I see, look back, she just needed help. But my parents wanted to get married. My stepmom and dad wanted to get married. And they wanted the preacher of the church to marry them. And he said, well, I'm not going to because the Bible says that the spouse needs to be dead before he can remarry. And they were just like, oh no, what are we gonna do? And they were just like, oh my gosh, preacher, we want you to marry us. We don't know what to do. Next thing you know, my mom's dead. And- What the fuck? Yeah. And it was a closed casket. She drowned in an above ground pool. And it was just very odd. And it's still, I still feel so weird about it. There's no true closure on it. But the preacher, I've had a couple people tell me that that preacher told them in marriage counseling with other couples that he prayed for her to die. And he basically used that as threatening, like you better get your marriage together. And to me, when I go, okay, don't talk bad about people or don't do this or that, when it's something like this, I just feel like it's so evil and wrong. I have the right to talk about that if I want to, especially when it is personal. But to me, I'm just like, where's God in that? You were playing God. There is no the God that you speak of in that, like the good part of the God that you speak of. Because to me, when we look at it, he's both good and bad, what they taught to us. But it's just like with that, it's tragic. It's just so sad that there's so much of that trauma wrapped up, but it's like they just want control and power. And he actually, I write a little bit here and there, like I'll write like poems that aren't really like poems, it's just writing. And I wrote something about that pastor and that when we had just a small graveside service for her and he came up and when he was preaching her service, he was tapping on her casket going, if you want to be like this, if you want to be a sinner, and God's going to call you home just like this. And I remember him tapping on that casket and I was just like, what? The audacity, I don't know, it was like this poor woman. We were always told she was so wicked and awful and sinful. And it's just like, just love her unconditionally the way that God would. I'm like, God doesn't really love unconditionally if you actually study the Bible, there are conditions. But to me, it's just like, there's so many things wrapped in that and so many growing up. Like as a kid, having that weight on your shoulders and dealing with issues like that, being taught the things that you were that was just saturated in fear and guilt and shame and always, I don't know, I don't know, I need to stop. I need to stop where I'm going with this right now. You're doing great, you're doing fantastic. I was just going to say that you're explaining your story very well. Okay, I want you to know that. I don't want to rabbit trail off. No, no, no, that's why I haven't cut you off or asked any other questions. There's a lot of questions I've been having and then I'm just listening. But the last thing you just said is so heavy, right? It's almost hard for me to take it all in. And of course, you're expressing it so well. And I imagine you said you're almost 35. I'm also 34, so we're both 1990s babies. I'm 89. So this is, oh, you're 89. She got it, okay. I'm holding on to the 80s. Yeah, yeah, you are. How old were you though, when your mom unfortunately died? How old were you again? I was 17 and she had just turned 40. So okay, yeah, so she's a younger mother, right? And that's how it kind of goes in the church, all that. And you said it was like a freak accident where she drowned in a pool? Uh-huh, so what was weird, there's just so many things to it. I'll try not to just completely go into every detail, but once she divorced, we had to go up to the judge and be like, who do we choose? And obviously we were like, we're obviously gonna choose dad. He goes to church, he's a Christian, he loves God, and mom's a wicked sinner, so we're gonna go with him. And I don't think my mom would have been able to support us anyway, like on her own. Like it would have been, I work in a courthouse, so I know how those divorces and stuff go and it can get really messy. And it was just really just broke off easy for them. I didn't really see her much after that. Maybe a few times I went over, she had a couple of different trailers that she lived in, and my sister and I went over and saw her a couple of times. And it was like the sense of like, you just felt so sorry for her. And I had a lot of like hatred, because she like, I mean, there's one time, the only time like she was so peeled out of her head, for lack of a better term, that she would take it out on me and my sister. And I mean, she just wasn't her, it just wasn't her. And that's the mom that I knew all of my teenage years. So I had a lot of hatred and resentment built up towards her. My empathy was really running real short. And so by the time that we got older and we're able to see her a few times, I just felt so sorry for her. She was like, my daughters, I love you so much. I'm so happy you're here, let's do this, let's do this. And we were just kind of like, okay, mom. But she would write us letters. That's some of my prized possessions are some letters that she wrote us. And in them, it's like, I hope she says, I hope one day that you'll see why I did what I did and what I was going through. And I know you will not understand it now, but I just hope that you do. And it's like, yes, mom, I see it. I see it now, I totally understand what you went through, how hard it was, especially, I don't think her and my dad were supposed to be together. I think they were totally not meant for each other. My mom had been abused her entire life. Her mom died, she, man, we are getting dark here, but her mom passed away. She was like, I think seven. She was in the backseat of her car. It was her stepdad and her mom. And they went under a semi and her parents died. And she had her elbow, I think, and her pelvis broken. They told her she couldn't have any kids. And then she ended up getting pregnant with my older sister. And it was like an accident when my dad's like, oh shit. Here we go. So his parents were like, y'all need to get married because that is the right thing to do. And it should have never happened. And she said on her wedding day, my mom told me, she said, I don't want to marry him. I don't want to marry him. And here we are. And I was almost aborted as well, which is crazy because it kind of makes it more special to me, like my sense of not having any self worth and then finding that's like, okay, I am meant to be here and don't waste my time. If I want to be creative, write, draw, do whatever because whatever I make is beautiful and it is worthy. I don't know. I'm on a really big journey of self love and worth. But as far as, I think I got away from that. Well, I can just, I'll guide the next question for you because I'm just like, you said how you had this, you were trained, it was ingrained in you to despise your mother, right? And I know that's in my life as being the non secular or the secular parent with my child, who's the rest of his family and his mom and the rest of all, both his grandparents are pastors. So I've always been framed as the super dangerous, dad if you will. Yeah, living in sin and all of that. And so that's close to home to hear that this has been your experience. And I have so much space for my son, so much space for him in his younger years and growing up. When did it happen? Because I know that your mother died, it's just such a heavy story. But when did you see her? When did it come into your consciousness that your mother was just this woman who was in a culture that was being so abused by and kicked out of, right? When did that come into your consciousness? So after I got married, I started once I became a mom and I think that happens for a lot of people when they have kids. It's like they have this whole new set of eyes and the way that they look at their parents and the way they look at themselves. It was almost like I went back, what, okay, take two. But I feel like once I started parenting my girls and then seeing what I didn't have in my mom, she wasn't very close and cuddly. And I mean, when we were younger, it was amazing. She was so fun and everything, but obviously the pills and all that changed things. And I was like, I will be the mom that I never had and I will do this and this and this. And then once, I feel like after I got divorced, I was married for eight years, had the three kids with him. And then once I got out of that and I was putting myself in my mom's shoes once she got divorced from my dad. They were married for about 20 years. And it was almost when that person is demonized because, oh, you divorce, you are in sin, God hates divorce. And it's like when I put myself in her shoes and I'm like, I'm not a bad person. And I'm not, I have really good intentions I love and all the good things. Like, you know you have a good heart. You don't have an evil manipulative. That to me was like, I looked at my mom back with different eyes. I kept reading her notes and it's funny, the older I get and the more that I heal, the more when I go back and look at those things, I have completely different feelings. Every, like a year from now, I'm gonna have different feelings than when I read it now. Because just that healing journey and it just made me understand how people need love and how people need help instead of being shamed and being like, oh, well, you just need to get right with God and you need to change this and you need to do this. Why can't we just be like, what can I do to help you? What can I do, you know, like, or just show them kindness and love. And honestly, you may not, you just being nice to somebody could totally change something for them. You know, I know people have told me that and I know people have done it for me where I was like, this person said exactly what I need to hear and it changed the trajectory of my healing journey. Like, I mean, it's crazy. Like those little things can be so impactful. But I just think me looking back at that, and especially now that I'm not married, but I do, I'm still a mom. And so it's just that, like, when she broke free and was just Marian, when it was just her and she wasn't under somebody else's name or under a church or anything like that, I'm like, what was she like? What was she thinking? And then, so I look at myself, it's like, wow, I have the freedom to do whatever I want and to think whatever I want. And it's just, with that just comes a different set of eyes when you look back at that. Yeah, so, I don't know. When, and then unless, do you have something you want to ask Seth? Oh, I have plenty of questions. I'm just waiting for things to, I'm just moving along baby, what do you got? Because you know, I'm just going to keep going. I'm going to keep at it unless you want to jump in here. I want to give, you know, go for it. Well, I feel like we're talking on a very specific topic. I have questions to change topics. So if you got something there, keep going. Yeah, I just, I think I'm like connecting the dots just of your story. And I think it's like important, like what I'm receiving from you is this awareness of self, right? Like when did you start to become aware of yourself? And it sounds like, it was like when the children, when you got the gift of children, right? Which was a part of, I'm imagining at the church culture, you did the thing, you got married, you had the kids, you couldn't have sex till marriage. So you followed all the rules, just like she did. And then these kids come out. I relate with that, right? Like being your own, being a parent is like, wait a minute, how could I ever, you know, turn this kid away for what, you know, if they don't believe something or how could they, you know, exactly. And then you said you were married for eight years. Then you go through this divorce, which how dare you, evil divorce, right? Shame on me. Did you go through your divorce? Was that like the beginning or was that during the time that you started deconstruction or why did you, yeah. So then I'm like making the connections that the discovery of self, like not speaking for you, but just like connecting it, that like you discovered more of yourself as you removed yourself from this religion, from this culture and from that husband. And then you were like, oh my God, I think I know who I am more now, which helps me see where I come from, which helps you love the sinners, right? All of a sudden you actually got unconditional love by leaving this culture. And I think that is such a fucking important point, right? Because that's what I just received from all of your story. So great job because- Thank you. That's massive. And if you want to just share, yeah, because like the deconstruction is so important, right? In this whole discovery, all of that. Absolutely, yes, you are right. So once I, you know, and I was a preacher's wife for three years and like right at the tail end of the divorce. And then we got divorced while we were pastoring this really small country church. And so it was like, I was losing community after community and I'm not from here. So it was almost like I was kind of forced to sit with myself and not identify with anything. And once we got divorced, I went to church like maybe a couple of times to visit, but I started getting my, like we split time with the kids and everything. And I realized like, wow, Sunday, it's such an important day to just spend time like with the kids or just doing whatever we want to do. Like, and it took me a while to get over that guilt of not going to church on Sunday because that's what I've literally done my entire life. And you know, of course, if you don't go to church, it's like, you need to be there every time the doors are open. Why weren't you there? Be faithful to the Lord, you know, all those things. And then, so once I got into another relationship, I was engaged to this guy and we ended up breaking up. But when I was with him, he's like, yeah, you don't need to go to church to be a Christian. I was like, yeah, right? That's kind of how I feel. And then so life just kind of got better for me and it was easier to handle that guilt and shame, which I know I say that a lot, but there is so much of it in Christianity. And then once I started doing that and not going to church on Sundays, not feeling so bad, I went through a crazy breakup. Again, had to be like, come back to like, who am I? Who am I? And that was the journey I was on during that whole relationship. Like, I'm so anxious, you know, I'm trying to make everybody else happy to gain worth. And instead of just realizing that no matter what you do or don't do, you are still worthy. Like, that was a huge like awakening for me. But once I got past that breakup and that was a really, really intense breakup. And once I got past that and I'm with my boyfriend that I'm with now, he's given me so much space to just heal and go through so many things that like, I don't feel like I'm underneath him. I don't feel like my identity is in being his girlfriend or his partner. And it's like, I was able to actually focus on me. Like, what do I like? What do I like to do? What do I, you know, it's crazy because like I'm a grown ass woman, you know, with kids and you know, all this stuff. But it's like, it's okay to be selfish in that way because I was so proud of just being like, let me do this for you. I will be a servant of the Lord. I'll do this, I'll do this until like my body just falls to the ground of exhaustion because I'll get crowns in heaven for it, you know, or something like that. And again, like that worth in like doing everything. Well, then when I finally was finding who I was in my identity, I started coming across like my algorithm was showing me deconstruction, you know, questioning your faith, you know, do you really believe in this and this and this and going through things in relationships and like mental abuse and all those things. You're like, wait a minute. It kind of correlates like, God is kind of like the abusive boyfriend. Like, wait a minute, like he seems like a narcissist. He seems controlling like, this feels so uncomfortable and so bad, but it's like, actually I'm gonna question it and I'm gonna move through that discomfort. And there were some days where I was not okay. Like I was just mentally so freaking anxious and just like, I feel like it's so wrong. But then I come across podcasts, like the Preacher Boys. I don't know if you've heard of them or not, but they have a series on HBO Max called Let Us Pray, but it's P-R-E-Y. And they speak about abuse in the Independent Fundamental Baptist Church. So that's the one that I grew up in, like the type of cult that I grew up in. So I was listening to all his stuff. And then there was a couple other ones I was listening to, but in a period of two years, like I think it was like 2021 through 2022, I was like in the trenches of deconstruction where it was like, I was falling apart. Like mentally I was on top of literally life in itself, being like freaking hard. And then I got to the point though where I was like, I'm not scared of dying and going to hell because I don't believe in hell. And I don't feel bad about not believing in hell. Like I believe in good energy. I believe in bad energy. I was a massage therapist for a couple of years. And I noticed when I was massaging people, this was kind of before I deconstructed, I could tell without them opening their mouth, whether they were feeling good or feeling bad. And I'm like, what is this? No, but I was like, great. And then so it was kind of like, okay, well that's kind of freaky and it's kind of like woo woo, but now I'm like hell no, like we're going to be all freaky and woo woo because it's true, like deny that. And it's incredible now that like I'm not scared of it. And it's amazing, like that's just how we're created. And so once I got through all that deconstruction and just, cause I feel like I have deconstructed now. I said, okay, my body was just like physically breaking down on me and it was just so awful. I didn't know what to do. I kept going to my doctor and he was doing blood tests. He was doing all kinds of things. And he finally got to the point where he goes, okay, I'm not a psychiatrist, I'm not a therapist, but I think you really need to get some help. And I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, you are trying to do all this by yourself. He's like, and I think if you're willing to, I'm going to refer a psychologist or a psychiatrist to you. And I'm just like, I'm not fucking crazy. But I said, it just felt right in my gut. I am trying to do all this really extremely hard work by myself and carry the weight of all of this that I didn't even ask for. We don't ask for trauma. We don't ask for all these things that happen to us. So I went to a psychiatrist and I was telling him things. He was like, he was kind of alarmed. And I was like, oh great, don't gasp in front of me. That makes me more anxious. But he diagnosed me with chronic anxiety and then the C-PTSD. And I had to research a lot of that. And I said, I already knew this is what I had. Like I had already been really just reading and deconstructing and like, I feel like all that, like your mental and that goes hand in hand. And realizing that what goes on in here can affect you physically. And that's what was happening to me for years and years and years. And it's not just like, oh my God, I'm stressed out. It's literally that trauma lives in your body. And I was reading like, the body keeps the score. And then there was another book like, How To Be The Love You Seek. And I'm just like, holy shit, I have to put this down every 10 minutes because it resonates with me so much. And once I saw the psychiatrist, they said, we're gonna get you into a therapist right now, your insurance, it covers it and everything. And I was like, I'm finally getting help. And this was like last year, almost a year ago. And I went and saw her and she said, we need to do EMDR, which I don't know if you've heard of that or not. It's really, really neat, really heavy though. So I started doing that with her for a little bit. And holy shit, it's heavy. Like it's just as heavy as people tell you. Like people would warn me, be like, it's a lot, but it's really gonna help you. And when she evaluated me, she was like, okay, this is gonna take years. I hope you know that. And we're gonna have to do this every week. That's how bad it is for you. And I was just like, it was almost like a hit to my ego and my pride. Because I feel like the ego is the dark part of us. And I think, we are good, but we have that in whatever we feed, whatever. And that one was like, oh my God, like this hurts so bad. I can't do this all on my own. Like I have to have help. And then, so I started doing that and it was just so many realizations after so many realizations, but being validated that this was fucked up, that my life was fucked up. Like being validated was like this crazy power that I was like in possession of. And I was like, oh my gosh. And she was like, and I've had horrible things with self-worth. And she's just like, you need to practice courage. You need to put yourself out there. I've always wanted to sing. I've always wanted to be like on American Idol and all that. And I couldn't because that was wicked and simple. But I was like, I'll go and I'll sing hymns and I'll evangelize the world through American Idol. But that's not realistic. But so it's like, she wanted me to practice all these things. She's like, make videos, put yourself out there, put yourself in these spaces because you can take up room. And I'm like, but I'm so messed up. I have so much wrong with me. And she's just like, so does everybody. But after a while, I was just about to start therapy every week and my insurance quit on me. And cause I made like$2 more an hour, like literally. Don't you love that? I felt like I had lost somebody, I'm not even kidding. I was mourning the death of something. But it triggered that in me where it's like, something good is about to happen or something good has happened to me, the other shoe is gonna drop. Or like, hey, here's this, but oh, I'm taking it back now. Cause I feel like that's always happened to me in my life. And I was like, this is just like, this sucks so bad. But I had gotten so much healing at that point where I was able to handle that. And something about being denied, therapy, cause it's expensive and I can't afford it right now. But it's like, okay, well, let's do the work. Like you have the knowledge, you have the skills, you have the resources, let's do the work. And it's almost like this huge shift in me where it's like, I am capable, I am powerful, I'm worthy. All these things that were told to me, I actually believe. Cause that's one thing when somebody tells you these things and it's another thing to actually take that to heart and actually believe that about yourself. Exactly. And then so that's where I'm at right now. And it's just, it's a great place to be because I know all the work it took and I know if I can do it, anybody else can do it. You know, like it's just, I don't know. Like maybe that's my little self worth talking. It's a lot bigger now, but I just feel like it's so possible but we need people talking about it. We need people speaking about it and encouraging other people to do the same thing. Cause I want people to have true peace like I do now. Like I have so much peace about like death and everything around that where before I was terrified. Like I said, I would get saved over and over and over again even though they said, once saved, always saved. You know, like that's what we were told. It's just like now, like I want to help other people feel the same way that I do, but not like because I have the right way. It's just for themselves because they are good. People are good. Wow. Well, congratulations, dude. Like I am so happy for you. I'm so proud of you. Like just, I'm proud of myself cause I like there's so much that you're talking about that it's not really the same but it feels like I'm looking in a mirror. Yeah. And I'm so proud of us. I'm so proud of you. And I know that you being here today based on everything you just said, it's a big fucking deal that you're doing this podcast. You're putting yourself out there. Oh yeah. We get over 180,000 views on every episode. No, I'm just kidding. Wait. No, I'm just kidding. We do not. But no, it's like this is everything you just said like, and you're out here, you're on the podcast and I know you've had a handful of episodes with yourself. And that's one thing I've learned so much with Zach. So much of the healing has been putting ourselves out there and just doing this, just doing this, just talking about it. And so I really commend you. I'm so happy for you. I've been with my therapist now. I started in 2020, even though I left the church at 16 years old, I didn't start my religious trauma therapy like real therapy until 2020. And it was every week. And now I've been in therapy for four and a half years. This is great. And it's great. And so I'm just so sorry that this country fucking sucks and it's capitalistic healthcare. I'm so sorry. And I, yeah, but I agree. You don't need- The church is a big part of that. Church is a big part of everything. On the reason why we don't have globalized medicine or socialized medicine. Yeah. I of course have a lot of things I could say or questions, but Zach- I have thousands of questions. Why don't you get in? I'm wondering how much darker we can get. We could like, we could, everything that she just said, we could dig into that, but I want to give you- I've been taking notes. Nate doesn't like to take notes. I love taking notes. Let's see where to start. I just, let's do it. Let's do a nonchalant comment. You brought up American Idol. Yeah. Do you remember David Archuleta? Yes. He's gay now. And I love it. I love that for him. Yeah, dude, right? I just stumbled across his profile and he came from like extreme, extreme, extreme Mormonism. And yeah, he left it and so did his family, or at least as far as I could dig, I think some of his family left with him. But I just wanted to comment on that. That is like, even like one of the best, it was suffering religious trauma as he was winning American Idol. Yes, I know. I think his mom has come around to him and been really supportive. I think from what TikTok has shown me. Yeah. Yeah, right. Before we get darker, let's go here. So just talk about some of this child abuse in the church because your mind is being molded at such a young age from such a young time and you brought up this thing called bus routes. I know some of the things that you were mentioning, we understood, like passing out tracks, going to save other people just on the street, being a street, I don't remember the word it was, but what is a bus route? Street Evangelical. Right, street Evangelical. What's a bus route? So, yes. Okay, so bus route is where you, so there is, my dad was a bus driver for as long as I can remember. We go to like poor neighborhoods and knock on doors and say, hey, can your kids come to church on Sunday morning? And they'll pick up kids and they'll like give them snacks and they bring them to church and they have Sunday school to tell them about Jesus and then they'll take them home. Like, so during the regular church service, you have the bus ministry and the kids service where they sing, they hear the gospel every time and it's like all the kids, close your eyes, bow your head, raise your hand if you've never been saved and they'll count who that they saved that week. It's a numbers thing. And then we take them back after the service every single Sunday and they're like, we're just loving on these kids and I mean, we're going to really sketchy parts of, which I mean, all the kids like at that point, like it was just like everybody needs Jesus, which is so true. Like, I mean, at that time, like the truth, I don't, you know, I'm pretty sure y'all know where I am now. Okay, but it was just like, but now that I'm older and I look at it, we had like most of the kids were black kids on the church buses. And it was like, yes. So it was just like, we're going to the projects. I don't know if that's politically, please blurt it out or whatever it's not. You're fine, it's fine. Okay, and to pick up these kids that are less fortunate than the white people are and to me, it's racist. To me, it's racist. That's colonialism, that's the beginning of our country. That's what this country is founded on. It's the Christian. Yeah, dude. I'm saying. And we have the savior because your life is real suffering. But just the thought of white people going and busing black kids to a white church is crazy. It's crazy. And when I went to, I went to another independent fundamental Baptist church up in, around Chicago. This was right after my husband and I got married. We went up to a college up there and we lived in the married dorms, which was an old 60s, 70s best Western that was three hotel rooms put together. I had a piece of plywood over the tub and a fridge on it and that was my kitchen, was one of the bathrooms. We're not even gonna go into that, okay? That was hell on earth, those three years. But for their bus ministries, they would go and they have this thing called the O count where if there's more black kids on the bus than white kids, they wouldn't even count the rest of them. I mean, they weren't even, they would count them as half of a person or something. Like the black. Oh God, man. Oh yeah. And I've heard the pastor of that church say the N word from the pulpit and be like, oh, if you have a problem, you can get out of here. And I'm like, me sitting there still in that religion, like, wait, what? Like, you're not, okay? And we were just like, oh my God, this is terrible. But I mean, you can't tell me that, I don't know. And in the deep South, we were like the Bible belts or the belt buckle, the Bible belt. Like, I mean, we were deep South, and especially like in the South, there's so much racism. I mean, it's like, you're almost like, if you were born there, you have to like, get that out of you. Hell yeah. It's just crazy. Like there were so many missionaries that would come there growing up too, that would go to Africa and all these places. And I remember being a little kid and surrendering to Missionville because I wanted to go help the poor kids in Africa who lived in huts because they needed Jesus. And just like a year ago, I had a coworker was like, I don't know why, I've always just wanted to help the little kids over there. And she was like, do you realize what you're saying? Like savior, like you're trying to be the white savior. And I'm like, is that why I was like that? And she's like, yeah, that's it. And I'm like, oh my God. Like, I just didn't know. I was just like, I have such a burden for this. And then it's just like, once you realize those things, being able to say, hey, I was fucking wrong about this. This is awful. Like, there's no way in hell I believe that now. But forgive me because I did say that, or I believe that way. But that's just how we were, it's sad that that's just how we were taught. It sucks. But that's what a bus does. Okay. And I'm just so happy that you, what I like to say on this podcast and what I've learned in my life is just that there's deconstruction from religion and then there's deconstruction from everything else. Yes, yeah. And that deconstruction of race and gender and all of that is so, that's like what's happening, right? It's just so important, if not more important, once we find real healing and can sense ourself, then we can put our own selves on blast and be like, I didn't even know what was going on, but I was a goddamn racist as a child. I was an ignorant racist in a part of a church that was increasing that, I don't know, giving that, and it was so normalized and oh, yeah. So I hear you. And it's not even like, well, Jesus loves every race and every color. Now that's out of the equation. It's like they're a fucking human being. You are no better than anybody else. It doesn't matter what you look like, what race you are, whatever, you're a human being that's worthy to be alive. To be loved and treated with kindness. It's like, leave Jesus out of the equation. People don't, they don't get it. I don't think they care to get it too, especially in the church. I think they like the control and the power. Yeah, I've always said ignorance. Yeah. They say ignorance is bliss. It's like ignorance is extremely racist, deadly, sexist. Ignorance is a lot of different things. Ignorance is colonialism. Ignorance is colonialism. Well, I mean, I think there's a lot of aware people doing the colonialism, right? It's like ignorance of others. I wanted to speak on this, like this, I wanna just try it. This like no agency, like being raised in the church, something that we both struggle with that kind of after doing this podcast has become a lot more apparent to me is this idea of fawning other people and not wanting to like offend them or always trying to be like, like you brought up the story with the pastor where he's holding your hand and you're being legit traumatized in that moment, but you're also not wanting to offend the top dog pastor that's like approaching you, talking to you, that type of, the types of interactions, although I didn't have ones that like that extreme, like I'm not trying to relate to that time, just using it as example, but those interactions make me now in my life still fully deconstructed or I like to think so, fawning everyone I come into contact with, I'm like, oh, I don't want you to feel bad, I don't want you to feel bad unless you're like so close to me that I can put that barrier down. Do you experience that at all in your life today? Oh, yes, yeah. And I think that is one of the hardest things I deal with is trying not to, I don't know. That is so hard for me. I don't know how to work. Give me a second to like think about this. I've had so many moments like that. Okay, so the church that I used to go to around here, those people I saw over the weekend and they were giving me tracks and the coloring books with the King James version verse on it. And it's so hard to, like you wanna be cordial, you wanna be nice, you wanna be whatever, and you don't wanna just like mold yourself into this, like I want them to see me this way, but it is so hard to just be your authentic self. It is so hard to be that way around people sometimes. Like where's the balance? Where's the line? That's something that I'm trying so hard to still do in healing. It's like where I'm not trying to offend people, but at the same time, like fuck you. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like it is so hard. I don't know, maybe ask it in a different way too or something because I don't feel like I'm- The way you're expressing it is exactly how it feels. I walk into that wall on a daily basis, maybe not daily basis, close enough that I recognize it enough that I'm fawning to like my professors, I'm fawning to friends that I make that I realize like, I'll give you my life, I'll give you my life. Just don't be offended with me or how I react to things. And it was actually defined by a guest we had on this podcast saying fawning. And I was like, what's that? And we defined it and I was like, holy shit, I do that to everybody. Yeah. Yes, that is definitely something I have had to work on and still am working on because it's just so easy to do. I think growing up in survival mode, I think that's kind of where that term comes from because you have to do whatever you need to do to stay safe for your nervous system to stay safe. So if you feel like if you're going against somebody or standing up for yourself or standing up for somebody else then it's almost like you're scared because you're gonna displease them, you're gonna get in trouble, you're gonna get whatever. I think that happens a lot with narcissists. They will say, you just tiptoe around them, do whatever you can to make them happy. And that is just an awful place to live in but it's such a default thing that I think we go to because we're trying to keep ourselves safe surrounded in that environment around those people. That is proclaiming that it's safe but then your intuition at that time, I can hop back into my young self and know, I didn't feel safe but I didn't know anything else. It's normalizing it, it's normalizing the unsafety and making you think it's normal and it's not at all. So when you come out of it and you're recognizing that, I was just gonna add and just like, I'm a registered nurse and we live in the same county that our parents still have their church, 25 plus years and there's all these churches in this county and so as being a nurse and I work in outpatient surgery, I meet a lot of people that come through the county from like the homeless community to the mayors and there's been so many old people from the church, from my past as a child that know me intimately that have been my patients. And I can't explain to you how many times Christians have been, like old Christians from our parents' church have been in like the bed and I'm like their nurse and they're really, really sick and they're so happy to see me and I am filled with PTSD, I have these triggers and I'm needing to be their nurse and I'm like a professional at suppressing my PTSD and my trauma to help the human, right? Which is, I believe that is ultimately a superpower because sometimes it's, right? Because like at some points, we are supposed to help one another, like we need to help one another even if that person's like screaming at you but needs you, in like those types of physical ways. So I've had a lot of experience of these people but a lot of the times, except 100% of the time, these people have looked at me from the bed and been like, Nathan, we're so sad that you walked away, when are you coming back to the church? And as their nurse, I'm like, motherfucker, I got the fentanyl right here, are you serious? And I've looked at it and it was so hard for me, right? And given a nurse, there's like a certain relationship, it's so hard for me in those moments to feel like I could ever be honest with them and I would try my best and what I learned in those moments is I would just say, hey, how about I'm living my own life and you're here in the bed, I'm here to help you, maybe it's possible that you can just accept me in my own self and none of them, even on their deathbed, even in the sickness that they have, they're still there and I learned a lot that these people that we were raised with, right, you were talking about how you don't wanna speak ill of these people that basically were a part of your whole childhood and I have so many of these people that I still love from my childhood youth and it's been so hard to see them for the truth of what they kind of reinforce and all of this and they're still normal people and they've done their best and so I've just like, yeah, it's so hard even in those moments when someone's on their deathbed to be able to, I don't know, I guess my point was just saying that like. That you'll even fawn in the light of the traumatic people that traumatized you as a child. And the other side of them is even when they're in pain and dying, they're still capable of making you feel so bad and that's where I was like, oh my God, I need to learn how to speak up for myself and that doesn't mean I need to speak up for myself to them. It means that on the inside, I need to trust myself. I need to be my own parent, I need to become this because they don't, I want to accept Christians, right? Like I wanna accept them, I wanna heal, like true healing is being like, yo, even though I don't agree with what you're doing, like you're free to live, like you are you and that's not normally mutual but that's like real healing, right? And so I don't know if we're ever gonna get at this, y'all. I don't know if we're ever gonna get better at like not fawning. I think that's like something that connects them with a lot of ex-Christians. It's really hard to not want to hurt people, right? And to not like want to like show them what they did back at us. It's like, I can't do that. I can't ever, yeah, give it to me. Okay, because this just happened and is relevant, okay? So I just went to Tennessee to see my parents and before I got to my parents' house is the church that I grew up in. They built this really giant church building and that pastor, still pastor there, that was my old pastor that said all those evil things. And I said, you know what? I'm gonna take a little detour. So before I went off to the road that my dad lives on, I go in front of the sign. Nobody's there. It's Friday night, I think. I go in front of the church sign and I'm like, ew. And I flip, I'm like sitting there like, fuck you. Kind of like, you know, yeah, this church sucks. Like everything you did to me, but like, I'm fine. I'm not sitting here just like, I don't know. I think there's a good anger. I think there's a good, you know, I think it's healthy. That way, right? So I did that. Well, I was, I said, get a picture of me with the sign. And my daughter was like, you should flip off. Like do that. And I was like, fine, sure. She was cool like that, you know? And so I go, I get my picture and I post on Snapchat because not a lot of people are on my Snapchat. I had one friend screenshot it that grew up with me and I was like, oh no. And then another friend go, that pastor's in the hospital right now. And I was like, wait, what? And I was like, oh shit. So then I go home and my dad was like, yeah, he's doing really bad. He had surgery and he's not, he's like, he's dying. And I'm just like, there was so many emotions flooding, swirling all through me. Cause I was like, shit, that makes me look like an insensitive dick. And then I'm like, okay. And then here I am where it's like this church and this place did so much damage to me in my life, you know? And then I'm like, well, you know, is it valid? So I just, I don't know. That was just such a weird like feeling because you want to be that way. But I'm like, I'm not going to post that on my Facebook where all these people are like, oh my God, wow. Why is she being like that? But I'm like, but it would be okay too because I don't know. It's like, where's the line? You know what I'm saying? That's what I was really grappling with. But I, what you're saying is so true. It is a superpower to literally just be like, I'm the one taking care of you. I'm the one that has to be nice to you. Or I don't have to, I'm choosing to be. I'm choosing to be. When I just want to be like, shut up and get away from me. Like your views are harmful. This is harmful, but it's so hard. It's so hard. It's so hard. And that's like where the term boundaries comes in. Because one of the things I've learned with so many experiences in our area, running into so many adults and other people and being so judged is if we can't get better at speaking our truth to these people that are ultimately our past abusers, then the best that we can do, if not maybe way better than even speaking anything is to set boundaries with these people. And one of the things I've learned with Christians don't have boundaries. I know that's a statement that's like saying this, but there was such a, it was preached at us. We were taught by our parents and in the church and youth pastors, it was all about, you have to set boundaries. You have to set boundaries. And yet there was like really no boundaries. So I have had to learn in my healing journey, in my therapy, what it means to set boundaries with people, just normal boundaries of people, being able to read bad behavior that's pretty unsafe and being like, yo, I'm gonna set and like verbalizing it. Like we need to set a boundary. And so when I've said that to ex-Christians, when I've learned how to do that, it's so hard, but it's so powerful feeling. It's like blocking somebody on social media. You're like, yeah, I'm free. But it's, yeah, I feel like we'll always have practice because humans, there's so many cultures that are saying you're wrong for how you're living and it gives us an opportunity to be like, yeah, you're free to choose what you wanna believe, but I'm gonna set a boundary and not talk to you anymore. My boundary is nonverbal communication with this person. Thank you. It doesn't have to be anything else, you know? Yes. Oh, yeah. Yes, I do. Autumn, something you brought up earlier was just being, your education was obviously hindered, correct? Oh, yeah. Can you not hear my head talk? No, I'm just kidding. No, I know it. No, you actually are talking very well. Yeah, I know. You talk very well. But you also brought up this, that you might think you have ADHD, you have all this trauma, you've been diagnosed with CPTSD. There is so much research. Which we have to, join us. There's so much research. And we- Oh, don't do that. We both struggle. Oh, yeah. Okay, sorry, go ahead. We both have been diagnosed with ADHD, so has our sister. Okay. And we've always just kind of thought it's in our brains, like, we're born this way, our parents are kind of ish this way, maybe it's just in our DNA. But the more research is coming out is actually pointing towards being traumatized as a child, especially in cult-like environments, that is complex trauma, leads to leads to ADHD in terms of issues in the brain and issues with learning where it's actually more of a trauma response that was taught to you at a young age, which if you, for me, when I hop back into these homeschools and environments, they're pretty traumatic in a learning sense where you're being taught like for me by a parent who should never have been a teacher in the first place. And they're getting mad that you're just not learning. And then so you're getting mad that you're different and you're not learning. And the next thing you know, it creates this cycle where every time you learn, you're like, well, I'm stupid, I can't learn. And then you start telling yourself you're stupid. And the next thing you know, you get to an age where you're like, I'm gonna choose to read this book. And then you make the agency to read and you're like, I can read fine, I can learn fine. Who the hell planted this seed in my brain? And it's actually, it's just relating back to this trauma. And so I just wanted to comment on that, on that you are a smart intellectual person. And even though that your education was so fucked with, that it actually might be a trauma response when you like maybe have a hard time focusing on something or if something's kicking in, you're like, I don't wanna do this. It actually might be the past kind of creeping up on you. You know, that makes so much sense to me. I mean, how often, we were always taught read your Bible every day and you had to read so many chapters a day and so many like you read to hear and then when you're done, I want you to write it out. Like literally, we would have to do that like in our spare time. That would make so much sense to me how when I opened up a book to read, my brain just goes somewhere else because I was always like, okay, read your Bible. I'm like, I don't want to. I'm so tired of it. I have to memorize. It's so boring. Yes. It's the most boring book. The Bible stole. The way the Bible was forced on us, the way we had to read it, right? I've memorized first and second Peter, recited it to my dad private in my bedroom. Like the Bible stole in many ways as kids, the Bible stole one of the greatest human evolution traits we have, which is reading, right? My wife is getting her PhD right now and is the opposite of us and has been reading every book on the planet since she was like eight years old, prolific reader and writer. And just to be able to learn, just to be like absorbing what that's like and be able to talk to her about it and ask her, what do you get from reading? Like, how does it feel? And like, why do we do it? Because I love reading so much and I'm reading a book right now that's just phenomenal and I love reading and I'm such a good reader, but I've been able to talk with her about it that I've literally believed all of my life that I'm just a horrible reader. And then as I've started to heal and really started to work through all of my trauma and break free from it to where I don't have to allow that to be all just that I am, right, is like this drama is reading is starting to become so much easier and I'm blasting through books and I'm feeling so much more intellectual. I'm like, it's me, I'm reading on a Friday night. So I think that there's so much hope, there's so much hope for our futures to be better readers and all of that. Yes, so when I went through massage school, it was two years squished into nine months and I was terrified because I was a mom of three, single mom and I had a boyfriend at the time, but I was like doing this on my own. I would go to school every single day, learn about the muscles and all the cells and all this stuff and I was like, I can't do this. Who am I, I can't go to school and be a massage therapist. And I remember when I got to the end of the year, which that school was so crazy for me, it was the hardest thing because I hate school because of what y'all are saying. Like I got, I took the Imblex the very last day of school, I went in and I was like, oh my God, there's no way I'm passing this. I have a business waiting for me. I have been like redoing the whole place, just while I'm going through school, like that way when I'm done, I can just start massaging and I'm like, I'm gonna let everybody down, all this time and money and then I get done and I go up there and I was like, did I pass? And they're like, yeah, you passed. And I was like, oh my God. And I slid down the wall and I was just like, oh my gosh. And then I remember telling people and they're like, yeah, we knew you could do it. And I'm like, but what? Because I didn't think I'd ever be able to do something like this. And even now I'm grappling with, I want to go to school to be a therapist or a religious trauma therapist, because that's what we need. And I'm like, I can't do that. That's way too smart for me. I can't do that again. And I'm really trying to tell myself, if you really want to do this, you can do it. You will be able to. But that makes some, what y'all are saying, that makes so much sense because we really did, like somebody did instill that in us that we're not good enough and we can't do this and we are stupid and we are dumb. I remember hearing those words. Like, why can't you, like I, with my school, every Thursday, a Manila folder, I can't stand looking at them now because I'm like triggered, but it would get sent home every Thursday night with every D and F that I got. Like, I guess every like test and quiz. But if I got a D or an F, I got spanked for each one of them. And every Thursday I would bring them home and I would get spanked every single Thursday and I would try to hide it and forge my parents' signature. I tried to do everything because I didn't want it. And I'm like, that in itself is so dramatizing. But it's like, they're like, why can't you get straight A's? Why can't you get? And I'm like, because I'm living in a circus and I'm not having the proper support, the proper mental support, the proper like everything. Like I'm under literal constant fear and stress 24 seven as a child, like, and it just doesn't stop. And it's like, no wonder, like no wonder I have that belief about myself when it comes to like what you're talking about. Like it makes so much sense to me. Hell yeah. There's a very like famous psychiatrist, psychologist, psychiatrist on the YouTube world, right? Some of these doctors, some of these, they make it to like stardom and then they're like really famous on YouTube. And so I'm always very skeptical, but every once in a while I come across these people and I've learned so much through YouTube, right? Just like you said, you found the podcast online and all of that and you started your deconstruction. It wasn't that long ago that this gentleman, this psychiatrist by the name of Gabor Mate, Gabor Mate. I think it's Gabor Mate. It's Mate? I think so. Yeah, something like that. Yeah, if you want to write that down. He's been on like a bunch of different stuff, certain podcasts, I don't agree with a bunch of podcasts. His whole entire research and everything that he's done and so much of what he speaks on is how ADHD in our country has been misdiagnosed forever because so much of his research shows it's deliberately like in trauma, that ADHD comes from trauma. So there's so much out there, Gabor, and he's so easy to listen to. I encourage anybody to check him out. Oh, his accent is amazing. And it feels so good to be like hearing things like, oh my God, this is everything that I went through and I've been saying about myself and there's so much hope. I'm so smart, I'm so smart, you know, it's not real. But like, and so I've had such severe ADHD, all my coworkers in the hospital, every boss I've ever had, the way my energy is always up, I'm super, super fast, fast, fast, fast, fast. And so I've always been from everybody. Everyone calls me, oh, it's ADHD Nathan, it's ADD Nathan, it's ADHD Nathan. And so now me and my wife and Zach and our sister and like all of us, we use the term neurodivergent. Yeah. Yes. Okay, and so we were diagnosed with ADHD, but now we don't have ADHD, we're just neurodivergent. You're just neurodivergent. Extra special, right? Who's neurodivergent? Yeah, we're all on the spectrum, all right? Some of us are autistic, some of us are neurodivergent. Yes. That's what it is. I just want a board back here where you can give me a star every time I do something right, okay? One star, two stars. I want my damn stars, I never got my damn stars. All right, guys, we're at like an hour and 42 minutes. I just want to make one more comment on that. And then I have one more question and then we can move towards the- And then we can see if there's anything that Autumn wants to add that she hasn't been able to. We can keep going, we're okay. We're fine. We're okay. It's fine, I'm here. You were stating that you're somewhat interested in going into therapy? Yes, absolutely. I just wanted to comment on that, that you are 100% capable of becoming a licensed therapist. You are so 100% capable. You would be an amazing therapist. The trauma and the experience you've experienced in your childhood is all you really need. Yeah, you're a professional. You're already a professional. Just this country has the licensing, but you can do the school. I'm currently in school for getting my bachelor's in psychology, but then I'm going to take that to neuropsychology. And just doing it, you could totally do it. If you could do massage therapy school, trust me. We know you took anatomy and physiology, and those are the hardest classes in any college. So you did it, you did it. You can do anything. So I just wanted to comment on that. I want to encourage you, because we do need more therapists that are in tune with religious trauma, in tune of being in a cult, coming out of a cult, and teaching kids through it, getting that advice out there. You can totally do it. I just want to put that out there. And you know, my therapist, my EMDR therapist, when I first told her, when we first started EMDR, she said, I'm just going to let you know, I took what you said when we did our first session to my higher ups, because I had no idea what to do with it, because I've never come across a case like this in 15 years. And I'm like, great, and thank you. So now I'm like, you know what, there's a need for this, there's a need for this. Yes, yes, we do. Own that trauma, take pride in that, and just be like, that's damn right. Damn right you have to go to your higher ups. Go learn something. Yeah, I wanted to point out that we do need more therapists that are specifically trained in religious trauma. But I think that more importantly, we need more like traditional, educated religious trauma therapists. One of the things we've learned in our community, in this small, rather growing, large religious trauma community, is there's a lot of therapists out there that aren't professionally trained, that have, they're not saying they're not amazing therapists, but that the psychology that's been around for so long is changing all the time, and proper education, right? Like forces us as people to learn what it means to constantly be learning so that we're not thinking we're like the answer to other people's suffering. And I've just learned, just by being a part of this community, there's a lot of people that have our experiences that wanna go in to doing this, to have these conversations, be a part of people's lives, to give back in that way. And I've just seen both. I've seen, we interviewed somebody, her name was Julia Artelli, who's like doing a bunch of research right now, getting her bachelor's, and she's just got this formal education surrounded around, like coming from so much religious trauma, and then like she's focusing her research on religious trauma, and it was just versus somebody that like went to like a one year, non-professional educated therapy program, and they've been giving therapy for like 10 years. And I'm just, I don't wanna judge anybody for like that, but I just believe that we need more. In this area of religious trauma, because we come from a church where there were so many professionals that knew how to help you, when in reality there was like no real legitimate education. And I just wanted to add that. I think that's important. And there's also a lot of, and nothing against this, cause we've interviewed some therapists that have come from this and everyone grows and changes, but where they got their license through a private Christian university, and then after like 10 years of giving therapy, they deconstruct and they keep giving therapy, where I do think in those school systems, especially the private Christian school, that they're taking a lot of normal psychology that you would learn out. And then there's a gap there, I think Bing as well. Yeah, I'm not a big fan of Christian schools, Christian colleges. I'm not a big fan of it either. No. Okay, I got one more question, and then all of my notes are crossed out and I can feel comfortable moving forward. Not bad, not bad, not bad start. I had a lot of notes Autumn, I had a lot of notes. I know I made a hundred of notes. Yeah dude, that page is, that looks crazy. It's insane, my brain, this is my brain. Yeah dude, your brain's great. You've spoke very, very lightly on your family, and most of it is very traumatic. And just because it relates to us a lot, and I know almost every one of our guests, but there's always once you deconstruct a hindrance with the family. And I'm wondering, do you have much of a relationship with your family anymore? So it is tricky and it has come with a lot of boundary setting, which has been one of the hardest things for me to do. My sister, we are super close. Like we have been through, it's funny because we've been through all the same trauma, but with different perspectives. Like it's like no two siblings go through the exact same thing. And that is definitely the case for both of us, but we are very close, pretty much believe the same thing, which is really cool. And I've heard y'all speak about your relationship as well. But as far as her, like yeah, we're pretty close. I have a very small family. Like I have my dad, two uncles, and my mom is still alive and that's it, and my stepmom. My dad came out of the Independent Fundamental Baptist Church years ago, but it wasn't when we did, when I did. And it went kind of from one to another, just a little less like tame, like some of the women wore pants outside of the church. They weren't as, it's just, and I know that feeling once you leave something so like severe, anything else feels 10 times greater, even if it's just like a small little step down from like the IFB, it's like a Southern Baptist or something like that. It's still like, oh, wow, this is a breath of fresh air. But he and his wife did that. And then they just recently went to a non-denominational church like within the last year or two. I think it's been year, maybe. And we've gotten to the point where we don't talk about politics, we don't talk about religion. It took me over the last year, that's been my biggest hill to climb, is that because he's a very political person, he's very, very religious. But he's a great, like he is so charismatic and so like, he was a car salesman my whole life. And I feel like between my mom's personality and his, they have like great bubbly personalities and they're so fun and they're the life of the party everywhere they go. But sometimes when you mix that with Christianity or things like that, it's just, this is where I have a hard time talking about it because I don't want to say anything bad, but there's been boundaries that have been set and there's been a lot of emotions and a lot of sometimes heated conversations. And when I was going through therapy and through that healing, especially from my trauma from being a child, in that household and in that church, it was hard for me to even want to talk to my family because like I said, with my new eyes and my new healed eyes, I'm looking back at like, I could never do that to my kid. I could never do that to my kid. You're not trying to break your child's will. Like, I mean, they were, they were trying to, I win, I break my child's will, I'm stressed out, I'm upset, let me take it out. I can never do that to my kid. And I make sure that I am healed enough to be the best parent that I can. And it's just hard to grapple with that and have a good relationship. And I feel like I'm to the point now where it's good, like where it's, I'm at peace with it. And if somebody, if they want to feel however they want to feel, that's them. I can't control that. I can be kind, I can be, I can set boundaries. And so far, like this last trip that I went to, down to Tennessee to see my family, it was a great trip. Like we all just really, there was love there. There, I didn't have a lot of conversation with my dad. I didn't, we just were kind of there. We're just in the moment. And that was nice because I think now that I have set boundaries, like, don't talk about politics around me. I'm not going to agree with you. There's no point, you're not going to try to convince me. I'm not going to be like, yeah, good job. Way to go, I'm so proud of you. I won't say it because I'm not, I don't agree with that stuff. But it has taken a lot to get there and it's taken a lot of setting really hard boundaries. And you know how it is, like, I'm so empathetic. I'm so empathetic. And it's like, I feel sorry for, I just want to make everybody happy and I want everybody to feel loved and get along. And just, that's not reality. That's not like real life. So it's like almost you're grieving, you feel bad for setting a boundary, but at the same time, you know you're doing what's best for you and to protect your peace. And it's finally getting to a point where it's kind of like balancing out. And I'm a Libra, I'm all about balance. I love getting those scales. But yeah, so I mean, I'm at the best place since healing with my family than I've been so far. Or so far. No, that's awesome. That's so good to hear. That's awesome. That's really cool. It takes so much work. Being the one setting those boundaries too takes so much work. So I commend you on that. Oh, yes. Thank you. I just want to say too that we still have a relationship with our folks, the pastors. And ever since we started this podcast, it is finally for the first time in my life noticed there's like the strongest boundary that's ever been set, which is just talking publicly about our experience, right? Which is forcing our parents to sit with that, to sit with the fact that we're having public conversations around our upbringing. But just to say that, and so like there's been like fissures and it's been ripples. I fought with my parent. They kicked me out and I fought with them. Every time, the most horrific fights always pushed away. It fucked mine and Zach's relationship up forever. And so to like, the fact that I even have a relationship with my parents still, I think is because it's part of the religious trauma that I've never really learned how to, I know that if I ever cut them out, right? With however bad it's gone, I knew it would be it. I knew that that would be like, it'd be really hard to like, because they're not the type of people that are gonna really, at least they've never shown that they're ever gonna like do the work to try to see us, just to see us as people. And because of that, and I'm over here like, well, I'm trying to see myself first, right? And that's like really important. And so there's just like this, what I've learned is, we still have a relationship and I'm so proud of that. And like, just like you said, I'm finally able to say the same, I have the healthiest relationship I've ever had with my parents. I have the strongest boundaries, no politics, no religion. And I've had to reinforce that so many fucking times and still do, but I haven't fought with them in over a year. And I know that to them, I think it feels like to them, it's the worst the relationship has ever been. But to me, this is clearly the healthiest and safest it's ever been. Whether that lasts is like, because we've interviewed so many people that they've had to cut out family. Even with kids, they've like, I've had to cut out life uses that or this or that. Yeah, and it's like, and I don't know if that's gonna be the case with us still. It breaks my heart to even think about it just because life isn't this game, right? It's real shit and I feel like if it gets to that point, it's because of how severe this culture is. And as my therapist always told me, that when systems, thinking about things in systems theory, when a system feels threatened, that survivalness, that system will cut off any link to it that it assumes it's killing it. And in that Christian religion, in that culture, anybody that's not following that way is a potential person that's going to kill them, right? Going to be the death of them. So the only way our parents knew how to deal with me at 16 when I was walking away was get them out of this family. And that's so much scar tissue from that, but I finally have learned that I can separate them and be like, oh, you have to do that out of survival if that's what you believe. And in our experience, it's like, will that continue to slowly happen right from this culture? Will they really just start to cut us out? And so far, I do commend our parents that they haven't done that. Well, they've done it a lot to me, but I've kept crawling back being like, love me, just love me! You know? Yeah, it's so complicated. Oh, it is complicated, yeah. So we're almost at two hours, so I'm just gonna throw it out there. Is there anything that we've talked about, is there anything you wanna just share right now, like in your head, that you've missed or that you wanna add at all, that you're just like, it's burning inside of you? Is there anything at all that you'd wanna add to this? Actually, no, because I feel like I touched on, like the one thing I wanted to touch on the most was the autonomy. And I feel like I did touch on that a lot, like that feeling of self-worth, where you don't have to put it in anything else, because that's what Christianity does, where you put it in Jesus, or you put it in all the service of serving Jesus, but it really is just, we're born good, like we're not born evil, we're not like, this is what I believe. And when I started believing these things, it's so healing, it is just so healing. And it's like that gut, that intuition, all that is just so much stronger because they put it out. And then so just that feeling of like, you're worthy, and just, I mean, I know it sounds so like, oh my God, you're worthy, but like for real, like you really are. And just that, just having identity in yourself and just being who you are, if you're weird, if you love to do this and this, like own that shit. And it's doing me favors, like actually like practicing, like getting uncomfortable and stretching myself and having the courage to like do things outside of my comfort zone, but that I love, that I wanna do. And then all these really cool things happen from it and it's like just validation. So I don't know, that's, I don't really have anything else to say other than that. No, that's good. And I almost feel like the question you're about to ask, that's like a really good answer for it too. I think we were born good. One of the things that you said in our two hour interview at one point was talking about the ego, right? And you mentioned how like, and I'm never gonna say anything that says anything about your, like what I think is right. But one of the things I've learned with me is, it means I talk about this all the time, right? There's, I feel like there's multiple stages to reaching this higher self of consciousness and love and like self-love. And the ego seems to be like level one, right? And then like above, and then there's like multiple times of ego death and you kind of reach level two. And so one of the things I've learned in like my journey for me is that like, there really isn't any layer of my experience, no matter how far I go in my healing or how much I grow, there's none of it is bad. My ego is still so good. It's still so, like every part of me is so good. And okay, and loved, right? Like, and so I just wanted to throw that out there that one of my biggest recently, I learned this like two years ago and I've just been reinforcing that, is how would I want my mother to really treat me from like day one till the day we all die, would be if every single situation, every mistake I made, she looked at me and came to me and held me and went, it's okay, you've done nothing wrong, I love you still. And because I didn't have that, I had to learn how to become that for me. And part of that self-love that like motherly part that's like there now, everything is like, no, no, no, it's okay. Like you can make mistakes, it doesn't mean you're bad. You're still good even making mistakes. Yeah, you're parenting your little self. Like, yeah, absolutely, I'm big on that. That inner child, it's that seven-year-old, that 17-year-old, that 22-year-old, that 20. There's all these different people in me that are just like screaming at different times and they all require different parenting styles that I had to like, you know? And so being a parent too really helps, but yeah. Yeah, I'd imagine having children would help with that. Oh yeah, well, it just really helps to be like what she was saying is told with me, dude, it's like every day I look at every second, every time I think about him, I'm like, how could I ever tell him he was bad? Like instantly, like I could, and he does rotten shit, you know what I'm like, you're such a good boy, go to your fucking room. Like there's still consequences for the actions we make, but the love will never leave and that's something I dreamed of having as a kid. Like I just wanted to feel loved and safe when I was just trying to figure out what it meant to be a human. Oh my God, yes, oh, preach, no, I'm just kidding. Yeah, preach, it's the new way to preach. This is church, it's Sunday, we're at church. We're at real church. Yeah, this is church, that's why we podcast on Sundays. We're redefining what a Sunday should be. Well, it's still so much, we still brought the work in though. I know, we're still doing text shit. Church was so much work, wake up so early, gotta do the music. We're still setting up a soundboard. Now we're still waking up so early, gotta do the music. Where's the mics, and you would have a guitar? All right, ready? Yeah, so we have one last final question for you. Thank you so much, you've done so fucking good, Autumn. I am so proud of you, I'm so happy to have had you on, I'm so happy to have like made this friendship with you and I know that it will continue on and we'll just be a part of this community together. I want you to know that you can always reach out to us and we'd love to have you on again in the future sometime. I want to encourage you to continue your podcast because you're great at this and I think that your story is so powerful and I think you do a really good job doing this. So I want to like encourage you to like, Maybe that's what I needed, so keep going. Yeah, I just want to put that out there. But Zachary has a famous last question that we ask all of our guests. Okay. Indeed. You always build it up and I'm like, all right, don't mess this up. But I like to build up, you know, it's like. Now too, if you could put yourself back into that younger self or to that self that is questioning and it's so scary, is there any advice you would want to give that person that could be advice to other people that are also struggling with deconstruction? Ooh, ooh, that's a tough one, advice. See, I feel like I'm not a person to give people advice. I'm just a person to like comfort other people. Like it's almost, I guess. That's a great answer. Well, that's the first thing that came to my head was like, it's going to be okay. Like, cause how many times have a long, like every single age have I felt like it's not going to be okay. Like this is terrible, this is awful. How is it going to get any better? And here I am like, wow, that worked out. Wow, that worked out. Wow, I can, I'm free, you know, like of so many things. So it's just like, if I could just like hug and just be like, you're going to be okay. It's going to be okay. That's what I would say. I know it's so simple, but it's so powerful to me. To me, cause that's what I wanted to hear. Love that. No, that's beautiful. That's the best advice. I don't even, I don't think you can answer that question like complicated. It has to be, that's so simple. I wish I was told that. Hey, it's going to be, you're going to be okay. Cause it is okay. It is okay. Even though you're going to be ostracized and everyone that has ever raised you is telling you the opposite. Just know that you'll get to a point in your life where it's actually okay. It's possible. That would be amazing to hear. Yeah. And then it's just hard as kids to learn that these experiences we have in life, there's like a separate part of us that isn't experiencing it. Like this body, right? Our like, we're so much, we're powerful. Human beings are so powerful to like separate themselves from the shit that humans do to one another. That's the stage I'm on now using meditation, using plant medicine therapy and retreats to better understand how to like learn my own mind, how to be mind conscious and to be in a world that we have no control. I can control my own mind and how to learn how to do that coming from religious trauma is work, but it's, you know, there's stages. So it's all okay. Yeah. Yes. That was beautiful. Thank you so much Autumn. Thank you Autumn Fessler, you're amazing. So much love for you and your family and your children. And yes, anything else Zachary? No, this has been an amazing episode. All right. I am so stoked. There you have it folks. Thank you everybody for joining us for the moral combat podcast with Autumn Fessler. Thank you again. And Zachary, I love you. Love you. And we'll see everybody in a couple of weeks. Yeah, you're going to Europe. I'm going to Europe. Yeah, but we don't, you don't need to. You used to share more. I want you to share. I'm going to Europe. It's pretty intimate Nathaniel. Yeah, I am going to Europe. It's not like I'm, we just got married elope this year and our aunt who comes from, you know. Why are you going to Europe Nate? It's called, I guess I'm going on a honeymoon. Honeymoon. Because I'm healing and I got married and I'm actually figuring it out. I got married for the first time and I'm in love. Nate's going on a honeymoon and we might actually skip a week when he's gone because it's tough to do it. Yeah, we'll figure it out. But anyways, thank you Autumn. Thank you everybody. And we'll see you next time.

People on this episode

Nathan Blaustone

Host

Zach Blaustone

Host