{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":3600.88,"endTime":3601.84,"body":"This was unique."},{"startTime":3601.84,"endTime":3603.84,"body":"I don't think there'd"},{"startTime":3601.84,"endTime":3603.84,"body":"been any case where"},{"startTime":3603.84,"endTime":3605.239,"body":"a suspect had been promised"},{"startTime":3605.239,"endTime":3607.639,"body":"sexual intercourse with a police officer"},{"startTime":3607.639,"endTime":3609.639,"body":"if they were"},{"startTime":3607.639,"endTime":3609.639,"body":"to confess to a crime."},{"startTime":3611.84,"endTime":3613.679,"body":"Everybody I've defended for murder"},{"startTime":3613.679,"endTime":3615.159,"body":"has protested their innocence"},{"startTime":3615.159,"endTime":3617.199,"body":"despite sometimes the most overwhelming"},{"startTime":3617.199,"endTime":3618.599,"body":"evidence of guilt."},{"startTime":3618.599,"endTime":3620.079,"body":"What was unusual in his case"},{"startTime":3620.079,"endTime":3620.92,"body":"was that there was"},{"startTime":3620.92,"endTime":3621.44,"body":"in my view"},{"startTime":3621.44,"endTime":3622.44,"body":"no evidence against him."},{"startTime":3622.44,"endTime":3622.96,"body":"evidence against him."},{"startTime":3625.599,"endTime":3628.039,"body":"I remember reading the transcripts"},{"startTime":3628.039,"endTime":3628.8,"body":"and I was completely and"},{"startTime":3628.039,"endTime":3628.8,"body":"utterly astonished."},{"startTime":3628.8,"endTime":3630.719,"body":"and I was completely and"},{"startTime":3628.8,"endTime":3630.719,"body":"utterly astonished."},{"startTime":3630.96,"endTime":3631.44,"body":"I couldn't believe what I was reading"},{"startTime":3631.44,"endTime":3632.96,"body":"I couldn't believe what I was reading."},{"startTime":3632.96,"endTime":3634.88,"body":"I found it incredible."},{"startTime":3636.679,"endTime":3639.28,"body":"The doctors were completely"},{"startTime":3636.679,"endTime":3639.28,"body":"convinced that he was"},{"startTime":3639.28,"endTime":3642.28,"body":"one of the illest patients they had"},{"startTime":3642.28,"endTime":3643.8,"body":"for a very long time."},{"startTime":3643.8,"endTime":3646.639,"body":"He thought that the murder had been"},{"startTime":3646.639,"endTime":3648.519,"body":"committed by him under"},{"startTime":3648.519,"endTime":3650.76,"body":"instructions from aliens."},{"startTime":3650.76,"endTime":3652.96,"body":"He had a diary full of pictures of"},{"startTime":3652.96,"endTime":3655.599,"body":"spaceships landing in Plumstead Common."},{"startTime":3656.44,"endTime":3658.96,"body":"You are listening to Inside the Case"},{"startTime":3658.96,"endTime":3661.039,"body":"brought to you by The University of Law."},{"startTime":3666.28,"endTime":3671.559,"body":"Rachel Nikel, a young mother aged 23,"},{"startTime":3666.28,"endTime":3671.559,"body":"was brutally murdered in July"},{"startTime":3671.559,"endTime":3674.76,"body":"1992 while walking on Wimbledon Common"},{"startTime":3674.76,"endTime":3676.96,"body":"with her two-year-old son and their dog."},{"startTime":3677.639,"endTime":3680.76,"body":"It happened in broad daylight"},{"startTime":3677.639,"endTime":3680.76,"body":"in an area that was"},{"startTime":3680.76,"endTime":3683.8,"body":"considered one of London's best-known"},{"startTime":3680.76,"endTime":3683.8,"body":"open spaces."},{"startTime":3684.28,"endTime":3688.32,"body":"As lead defence council put it, \"There"},{"startTime":3684.28,"endTime":3688.32,"body":"could be fewer, safer places"},{"startTime":3688.32,"endTime":3690.119,"body":"to go for a walk with your child.\""},{"startTime":3691.4,"endTime":3695.28,"body":"The brutality of the attack with multiple"},{"startTime":3691.4,"endTime":3695.28,"body":"stabbings, with the"},{"startTime":3695.28,"endTime":3699.36,"body":"toddler found clinging to his mother's"},{"startTime":3695.28,"endTime":3699.36,"body":"body, sparked a media frenzy"},{"startTime":3699.36,"endTime":3702.28,"body":"and immense pressure on the police"},{"startTime":3699.36,"endTime":3702.28,"body":"to find the killer."},{"startTime":3703.119,"endTime":3706.8,"body":"There was no forensic evidence, nor"},{"startTime":3703.119,"endTime":3706.8,"body":"witnesses to the crime, so"},{"startTime":3706.8,"endTime":3710.48,"body":"detectives resorted to psychological"},{"startTime":3706.8,"endTime":3710.48,"body":"profiling."},{"startTime":3710.48,"endTime":3714.599,"body":"They zeroed in on one local man who"},{"startTime":3710.48,"endTime":3714.599,"body":"fitted the profile of a"},{"startTime":3714.599,"endTime":3718.239,"body":"sexually frustrated loner, Colin Stagg."},{"startTime":3718.239,"endTime":3722.599,"body":"They then deployed a highly controversial"},{"startTime":3718.239,"endTime":3722.599,"body":"undercover operation"},{"startTime":3722.599,"endTime":3725.599,"body":"using a female police officer to befriend"},{"startTime":3725.599,"endTime":3728.639,"body":"Stagg and try to lure him"},{"startTime":3725.599,"endTime":3728.639,"body":"into a confession."},{"startTime":3729.679,"endTime":3733.559,"body":"Stagg was facing the possibility of"},{"startTime":3729.679,"endTime":3733.559,"body":"being jailed for life, but the"},{"startTime":3733.559,"endTime":3738.76,"body":"case collapsed at the Old Bailey in"},{"startTime":3733.559,"endTime":3738.76,"body":"1994 when the judge ruled that"},{"startTime":3738.76,"endTime":3741.159,"body":"the entrapment evidence was inadmissible."},{"startTime":3742.679,"endTime":3748.159,"body":"Justice would not be served until"},{"startTime":3742.679,"endTime":3748.159,"body":"2008, when advances in DNA"},{"startTime":3748.159,"endTime":3752.96,"body":"profiling finally linked the crime"},{"startTime":3748.159,"endTime":3752.96,"body":"to Robert Napper, a dangerous"},{"startTime":3752.96,"endTime":3758.559,"body":"patient already in broadmoor for the"},{"startTime":3752.96,"endTime":3758.559,"body":"horrific murders in 1993 of a"},{"startTime":3758.559,"endTime":3763.559,"body":"young woman, Samantha Bissett, and"},{"startTime":3758.559,"endTime":3763.559,"body":"her four-year-old daughter."},{"startTime":3763.559,"endTime":3767.28,"body":"In today's episode, I'm joined by the"},{"startTime":3763.559,"endTime":3767.28,"body":"man who defended Colin Stagg"},{"startTime":3767.28,"endTime":3769.36,"body":"and exposed the flaws in the"},{"startTime":3769.36,"endTime":3772.159,"body":"police investigation, William Clegg, KC."},{"startTime":3773.4,"endTime":3777.079,"body":"One of the most celebrated criminal"},{"startTime":3773.4,"endTime":3777.079,"body":"defense barristers of his"},{"startTime":3777.079,"endTime":3779.039,"body":"generation, Clegg has built a"},{"startTime":3779.039,"endTime":3781.8,"body":"reputation for taking on"},{"startTime":3779.039,"endTime":3781.8,"body":"the toughest cases."},{"startTime":3782.199,"endTime":3783.239,"body":"He has acted for"},{"startTime":3783.239,"endTime":3785.92,"body":"more than 100 defendants"},{"startTime":3783.239,"endTime":3785.92,"body":"accused of murder"},{"startTime":3785.92,"endTime":3788.92,"body":"in some of the UK's most high"},{"startTime":3785.92,"endTime":3788.92,"body":"profile trials."},{"startTime":3789.88,"endTime":3793.679,"body":"His portfolio includes defending Barry"},{"startTime":3789.88,"endTime":3793.679,"body":"George, who was wrongly"},{"startTime":3793.679,"endTime":3798.4,"body":"convicted of the murder of TV presenter"},{"startTime":3793.679,"endTime":3798.4,"body":"Jill Dando, and acting for"},{"startTime":3798.4,"endTime":3801.28,"body":"the killer in the Joanna Yates"},{"startTime":3798.4,"endTime":3801.28,"body":"murder case in Bristol."},{"startTime":3802.44,"endTime":3806.719,"body":"He was head of chambers at 2 Bedford"},{"startTime":3802.44,"endTime":3806.719,"body":"Row for 25 years."},{"startTime":3807.48,"endTime":3812.119,"body":"I began by asking him if he remembers"},{"startTime":3807.48,"endTime":3812.119,"body":"the moment he first heard the"},{"startTime":3812.119,"endTime":3814.8,"body":"news of the murder of Rachel Nickell."},{"startTime":3817.28,"endTime":3819.119,"body":"I remember hearing about it"},{"startTime":3817.28,"endTime":3819.119,"body":"when I was at home"},{"startTime":3819.119,"endTime":3822.559,"body":"in Suffolk and it came on the"},{"startTime":3819.119,"endTime":3822.559,"body":"radio in the morning"},{"startTime":3823.36,"endTime":3828.0,"body":"and it dominated the news for literally"},{"startTime":3823.36,"endTime":3828.0,"body":"weeks afterwards."},{"startTime":3828.639,"endTime":3829.4,"body":"Why was that?"},{"startTime":3829.4,"endTime":3831.28,"body":"It was partly wasn't it because of the"},{"startTime":3831.28,"endTime":3833.119,"body":"shocking circumstances of the murder."},{"startTime":3833.44,"endTime":3835.079,"body":"Perhaps you'd like to remind us."},{"startTime":3835.719,"endTime":3840.4,"body":"Rachel was walking on Wimbledon Common"},{"startTime":3835.719,"endTime":3840.4,"body":"with her young son who was"},{"startTime":3840.4,"endTime":3846.039,"body":"only about two years old as I recall"},{"startTime":3840.4,"endTime":3846.039,"body":"and she was brutally murdered"},{"startTime":3846.039,"endTime":3851.76,"body":"by an unknown assailant with her"},{"startTime":3846.039,"endTime":3851.76,"body":"son present at the time"},{"startTime":3852.76,"endTime":3858.32,"body":"and left dead in circumstances that"},{"startTime":3852.76,"endTime":3858.32,"body":"suggested that the killer was"},{"startTime":3858.32,"endTime":3863.76,"body":"probably interrupted during the course"},{"startTime":3858.32,"endTime":3863.76,"body":"of what he was about to do"},{"startTime":3863.76,"endTime":3867.599,"body":"and the suggestion was that there would"},{"startTime":3863.76,"endTime":3867.599,"body":"probably have been some"},{"startTime":3867.599,"endTime":3871.119,"body":"sexual interference with her had he"},{"startTime":3867.599,"endTime":3871.119,"body":"been allowed to continue."},{"startTime":3872.119,"endTime":3874.44,"body":"And it was broad daylight"},{"startTime":3872.119,"endTime":3874.44,"body":"and not particularly"},{"startTime":3874.679,"endTime":3877.32,"body":"early hours or just the middle"},{"startTime":3874.679,"endTime":3877.32,"body":"of the early morning?"},{"startTime":3878.4,"endTime":3880.079,"body":"It was in the middle of the day."},{"startTime":3881.079,"endTime":3885.28,"body":"Quite a lot of people were on the common"},{"startTime":3881.079,"endTime":3885.28,"body":"at the time but nobody saw"},{"startTime":3885.28,"endTime":3888.76,"body":"or heard anything to give them"},{"startTime":3885.28,"endTime":3888.76,"body":"any cause for suspicion."},{"startTime":3889.119,"endTime":3890.76,"body":"And I think also Wimbledon Common"},{"startTime":3890.76,"endTime":3895.36,"body":"is regarded as a lovely safe place."},{"startTime":3895.76,"endTime":3899.199,"body":"Yes, well it's obviously a common land"},{"startTime":3895.76,"endTime":3899.199,"body":"in the middle of one of the"},{"startTime":3899.199,"endTime":3903.84,"body":"nicest areas of residential London and"},{"startTime":3899.199,"endTime":3903.84,"body":"one would have thought there"},{"startTime":3903.84,"endTime":3906.0,"body":"could be fewer safer places to go for a"},{"startTime":3906.0,"endTime":3908.36,"body":"walk with your child than on the common."},{"startTime":3908.679,"endTime":3909.44,"body":"Did you know it?"},{"startTime":3909.679,"endTime":3910.119,"body":"Did you know?"},{"startTime":3910.119,"endTime":3911.28,"body":"I didn't know it myself."},{"startTime":3912.039,"endTime":3914.0,"body":"I had been there perhaps once or"},{"startTime":3914.0,"endTime":3916.36,"body":"twice many years before as a student."},{"startTime":3916.92,"endTime":3920.119,"body":"So then how did the police set about"},{"startTime":3916.92,"endTime":3920.119,"body":"trying to solve this murder?"},{"startTime":3920.599,"endTime":3922.36,"body":"There was very little forensic evidence."},{"startTime":3923.36,"endTime":3926.199,"body":"There was virtually no forensic"},{"startTime":3923.36,"endTime":3926.199,"body":"evidence at"},{"startTime":3926.199,"endTime":3930.599,"body":"all and the police had really"},{"startTime":3926.199,"endTime":3930.599,"body":"nothing to go on."},{"startTime":3931.119,"endTime":3933.28,"body":"Everybody who was on the common"},{"startTime":3931.119,"endTime":3933.28,"body":"was interviewed."},{"startTime":3934.28,"endTime":3936.599,"body":"Nobody saw anything that was"},{"startTime":3934.28,"endTime":3936.599,"body":"remotely suspicious."},{"startTime":3937.639,"endTime":3942.719,"body":"They conducted extensive house-to-house"},{"startTime":3937.639,"endTime":3942.719,"body":"inquiries all to no effect."},{"startTime":3943.48,"endTime":3945.039,"body":"Forensic evidence was non-existent."},{"startTime":3945.8,"endTime":3948.039,"body":"They were up against a brick wall really."},{"startTime":3948.76,"endTime":3949.599,"body":"So what did they do?"},{"startTime":3950.76,"endTime":3953.679,"body":"Well there was enormous pressure on"},{"startTime":3950.76,"endTime":3953.679,"body":"the police mainly from the"},{"startTime":3953.679,"endTime":3961.239,"body":"press who were crying for somebody to"},{"startTime":3953.679,"endTime":3961.239,"body":"be caught for the crime and"},{"startTime":3961.239,"endTime":3968.32,"body":"they eventually decided that Colin"},{"startTime":3961.239,"endTime":3968.32,"body":"Stagg who lived nearby was"},{"startTime":3968.32,"endTime":3971.0,"body":"likely to have been the person"},{"startTime":3968.32,"endTime":3971.0,"body":"responsible."},{"startTime":3971.719,"endTime":3972.44,"body":"It was a"},{"startTime":3973.76,"endTime":3978.599,"body":"curious jump by the police to come to"},{"startTime":3973.76,"endTime":3978.599,"body":"that conclusion because there"},{"startTime":3978.599,"endTime":3983.84,"body":"was no evidence against him at all but"},{"startTime":3978.599,"endTime":3983.84,"body":"he was a rather an oddball"},{"startTime":3983.84,"endTime":3988.599,"body":"and I think the police having as it"},{"startTime":3983.84,"endTime":3988.599,"body":"were eliminated everybody else"},{"startTime":3988.599,"endTime":3990.599,"body":"thought well it must be him because"},{"startTime":3990.599,"endTime":3992.039,"body":"there is nobody else it couldn't be."},{"startTime":3992.76,"endTime":3996.119,"body":"They had deployed criminal profiling"},{"startTime":3992.76,"endTime":3996.119,"body":"hadn't they?"},{"startTime":3996.36,"endTime":3997.239,"body":"They had."},{"startTime":3997.719,"endTime":4004.039,"body":"I'm not a fan of criminal"},{"startTime":3997.719,"endTime":4004.039,"body":"profiling and in my"},{"startTime":4004.039,"endTime":4007.159,"body":"experience it's not proved"},{"startTime":4004.039,"endTime":4007.159,"body":"to be very accurate."},{"startTime":4008.679,"endTime":4009.36,"body":"The profile"},{"startTime":4011.159,"endTime":4016.519,"body":"partly matched Colin Stagg but it also"},{"startTime":4011.159,"endTime":4016.519,"body":"matched I would have thought"},{"startTime":4016.519,"endTime":4018.76,"body":"about half a million other people"},{"startTime":4016.519,"endTime":4018.76,"body":"who lived in London."},{"startTime":4019.48,"endTime":4024.32,"body":"So the police then set about finding"},{"startTime":4019.48,"endTime":4024.32,"body":"evidence with which they could"},{"startTime":4025.159,"endTime":4027.599,"body":"arrest and charge Colin Stagg and they"},{"startTime":4027.599,"endTime":4031.8,"body":"instructed a psychologist to build"},{"startTime":4027.599,"endTime":4031.8,"body":"up a criminal profile."},{"startTime":4032.639,"endTime":4033.159,"body":"That's correct."},{"startTime":4033.76,"endTime":4038.239,"body":"Who was called Paul Britton"},{"startTime":4033.76,"endTime":4038.239,"body":"and he drew up"},{"startTime":4038.239,"endTime":4043.199,"body":"a profile of what the killer"},{"startTime":4038.239,"endTime":4043.199,"body":"would be like."},{"startTime":4044.159,"endTime":4050.48,"body":"Single man, sexually frustrated, living"},{"startTime":4044.159,"endTime":4050.48,"body":"by himself, all of which"},{"startTime":4050.48,"endTime":4053.44,"body":"one could have probably deduced"},{"startTime":4050.48,"endTime":4053.44,"body":"by common sense."},{"startTime":4054.519,"endTime":4057.96,"body":"And then how did they get from that"},{"startTime":4054.519,"endTime":4057.96,"body":"to finding Colin Stagg?"},{"startTime":4058.599,"endTime":4063.239,"body":"Well Colin Stagg was interviewed by"},{"startTime":4058.599,"endTime":4063.239,"body":"the police on the door-to-door"},{"startTime":4063.239,"endTime":4067.719,"body":"inquiries and fitted with the broad"},{"startTime":4067.719,"endTime":4071.679,"body":"profile that Paul Britton had created."},{"startTime":4072.8,"endTime":4080.159,"body":"His elevation to that of prime suspect"},{"startTime":4072.8,"endTime":4080.159,"body":"was a result of that and"},{"startTime":4080.159,"endTime":4085.96,"body":"then the entrapment that took place"},{"startTime":4080.159,"endTime":4085.96,"body":"with the woman police officer."},{"startTime":4086.599,"endTime":4090.519,"body":"Well come to that but they didn't have"},{"startTime":4086.599,"endTime":4090.519,"body":"enough evidence did they to"},{"startTime":4090.519,"endTime":4094.28,"body":"arrest and charge Colin Stagg when"},{"startTime":4090.519,"endTime":4094.28,"body":"they identified him."},{"startTime":4094.84,"endTime":4096.56,"body":"So tell us what happened next?"},{"startTime":4097.119,"endTime":4102.239,"body":"Well they had no evidence against him"},{"startTime":4097.119,"endTime":4102.239,"body":"at all and somebody had the"},{"startTime":4102.239,"endTime":4107.479,"body":"idea of trying to obtain a"},{"startTime":4102.239,"endTime":4107.479,"body":"confession from him"},{"startTime":4108.52,"endTime":4111.68,"body":"by using an undercover police"},{"startTime":4108.52,"endTime":4111.68,"body":"woman who would"},{"startTime":4111.68,"endTime":4116.439,"body":"befriend him and try to get"},{"startTime":4111.68,"endTime":4116.439,"body":"him to confess to her."},{"startTime":4117.76,"endTime":4124.079,"body":"And a woman police officer who used"},{"startTime":4117.76,"endTime":4124.079,"body":"the alias Lizzie James was"},{"startTime":4124.079,"endTime":4129.56,"body":"scripted to make contact with Colin"},{"startTime":4124.079,"endTime":4129.56,"body":"by way of a I think a lonely"},{"startTime":4129.56,"endTime":4135.56,"body":"hearts advert and the two of them"},{"startTime":4129.56,"endTime":4135.56,"body":"struck up a correspondence"},{"startTime":4136.6,"endTime":4141.92,"body":"during which she tried to get him to"},{"startTime":4136.6,"endTime":4141.92,"body":"confess to the killing but"},{"startTime":4141.92,"endTime":4144.279,"body":"all to no avail as it transpired."},{"startTime":4145.159,"endTime":4147.399,"body":"That took place over some"},{"startTime":4145.159,"endTime":4147.399,"body":"months didn't it?"},{"startTime":4147.399,"endTime":4148.76,"body":"Her engagement with him."},{"startTime":4149.239,"endTime":4151.119,"body":"It ended with the meeting in Hyde Park."},{"startTime":4151.8,"endTime":4152.96,"body":"And what happened at that meeting?"},{"startTime":4153.56,"endTime":4158.6,"body":"Well that meeting took place and"},{"startTime":4153.56,"endTime":4158.6,"body":"by this stage she had been"},{"startTime":4158.6,"endTime":4165.399,"body":"promising intimacy with Colin Stagg"},{"startTime":4158.6,"endTime":4165.399,"body":"who had not got any previous"},{"startTime":4165.399,"endTime":4170.159,"body":"experience with women really"},{"startTime":4165.399,"endTime":4170.159,"body":"but said she could"},{"startTime":4170.159,"endTime":4175.399,"body":"really only do it if he'd killed"},{"startTime":4170.159,"endTime":4175.399,"body":"Rachel Nickell."},{"startTime":4176.479,"endTime":4178.8,"body":"It sounds incredible now when"},{"startTime":4176.479,"endTime":4178.8,"body":"you describe it."},{"startTime":4179.0,"endTime":4182.239,"body":"It is quite incredible Colin Stagg said"},{"startTime":4179.0,"endTime":4182.239,"body":"well I'm terribly sorry but"},{"startTime":4182.239,"endTime":4184.96,"body":"I didn't kill her and that has"},{"startTime":4184.96,"endTime":4186.84,"body":"progressed like that there never"},{"startTime":4184.96,"endTime":4186.84,"body":"was a confession."},{"startTime":4187.72,"endTime":4189.52,"body":"I mean one can see how easily he"},{"startTime":4189.52,"endTime":4191.64,"body":"could have been persuaded to say so."},{"startTime":4191.64,"endTime":4195.68,"body":"Yes and no one would have been very"},{"startTime":4191.64,"endTime":4195.68,"body":"surprised but in fact he never"},{"startTime":4195.68,"endTime":4201.239,"body":"did confess but the psychologist took"},{"startTime":4195.68,"endTime":4201.239,"body":"the view that the way he had"},{"startTime":4201.239,"endTime":4205.88,"body":"denied it proved that he had done it."},{"startTime":4206.239,"endTime":4209.159,"body":"Having originally said that because"},{"startTime":4209.159,"endTime":4211.319,"body":"he was guilty he would in fact confess."},{"startTime":4212.56,"endTime":4214.439,"body":"Quite astonishing looking back on it how"},{"startTime":4214.439,"endTime":4217.56,"body":"common were such tactics in those days?"},{"startTime":4218.119,"endTime":4222.079,"body":"This was unique I don't think there'd"},{"startTime":4218.119,"endTime":4222.079,"body":"been any case where a suspect"},{"startTime":4222.079,"endTime":4224.96,"body":"had been promised sexual"},{"startTime":4222.079,"endTime":4224.96,"body":"intercourse with a"},{"startTime":4224.96,"endTime":4227.72,"body":"police officer if they were"},{"startTime":4224.96,"endTime":4227.72,"body":"to confess to a crime."},{"startTime":4228.319,"endTime":4230.359,"body":"And so when did you get involved?"},{"startTime":4230.64,"endTime":4232.52,"body":"I mean at this point then"},{"startTime":4230.64,"endTime":4232.52,"body":"they charged and"},{"startTime":4232.52,"endTime":4234.76,"body":"arrested him, arrested him"},{"startTime":4232.52,"endTime":4234.76,"body":"and charged him?"},{"startTime":4234.8,"endTime":4239.039,"body":"Yes there were protracted proceedings"},{"startTime":4234.8,"endTime":4239.039,"body":"in the Magistrates Court"},{"startTime":4239.039,"endTime":4243.439,"body":"ending with a old style committal"},{"startTime":4239.039,"endTime":4243.439,"body":"where evidence was called."},{"startTime":4244.039,"endTime":4248.0,"body":"All of that was done by my junior"},{"startTime":4244.039,"endTime":4248.0,"body":"at the trial Jim Sturman."},{"startTime":4249.199,"endTime":4255.199,"body":"I had been retained for the defence"},{"startTime":4249.199,"endTime":4255.199,"body":"before the committal"},{"startTime":4255.199,"endTime":4258.479,"body":"proceedings but was not formally"},{"startTime":4258.479,"endTime":4260.479,"body":"instructed until after the committal."},{"startTime":4261.079,"endTime":4262.8,"body":"And then you obviously went to meet him."},{"startTime":4263.199,"endTime":4265.0,"body":"Tell me what you remember about him"},{"startTime":4265.0,"endTime":4267.239,"body":"and what you thought when you met him."},{"startTime":4268.359,"endTime":4271.52,"body":"I first met Colin at Brixton Prison"},{"startTime":4268.359,"endTime":4271.52,"body":"where he was on remand."},{"startTime":4272.76,"endTime":4277.56,"body":"I thought he a very unlikely murderer."},{"startTime":4278.92,"endTime":4284.0,"body":"There was something rather simple"},{"startTime":4278.92,"endTime":4284.0,"body":"and gentle about him."},{"startTime":4285.159,"endTime":4288.52,"body":"His main concern when I saw him was"},{"startTime":4285.159,"endTime":4288.52,"body":"the welfare of his dog."},{"startTime":4289.079,"endTime":4291.92,"body":"Which I think you say in your"},{"startTime":4289.079,"endTime":4291.92,"body":"book was called"},{"startTime":4291.92,"endTime":4292.439,"body":"Which I think you say in your"},{"startTime":4291.92,"endTime":4292.439,"body":"book was called"},{"startTime":4292.439,"endTime":4294.439,"body":"Brandy and you had a dog"},{"startTime":4292.439,"endTime":4294.439,"body":"with the same name."},{"startTime":4294.92,"endTime":4296.96,"body":"Yes we both had dogs"},{"startTime":4296.96,"endTime":4297.6,"body":"By coincidence"},{"startTime":4298.159,"endTime":4302.0,"body":"Sharing the same name and in"},{"startTime":4298.159,"endTime":4302.0,"body":"a sense I tried to"},{"startTime":4302.0,"endTime":4304.64,"body":"use that to build up a certain"},{"startTime":4302.0,"endTime":4304.64,"body":"rapport with him."},{"startTime":4305.159,"endTime":4306.359,"body":"Did he protest his innocence?"},{"startTime":4307.279,"endTime":4308.479,"body":"Always."},{"startTime":4308.68,"endTime":4310.76,"body":"I suppose that's not uncommon though so"},{"startTime":4310.76,"endTime":4314.079,"body":"that alone wouldn't convince you of it."},{"startTime":4314.72,"endTime":4318.239,"body":"Everybody I defended for murder has"},{"startTime":4314.72,"endTime":4318.239,"body":"protested their innocence"},{"startTime":4318.239,"endTime":4321.52,"body":"despite sometimes the most overwhelming"},{"startTime":4318.239,"endTime":4321.52,"body":"evidence of guilt."},{"startTime":4322.88,"endTime":4325.0,"body":"So there was nothing unusual"},{"startTime":4322.88,"endTime":4325.0,"body":"about that but"},{"startTime":4326.199,"endTime":4330.239,"body":"what was unusual in his case was that"},{"startTime":4326.199,"endTime":4330.239,"body":"there was in my view no"},{"startTime":4330.239,"endTime":4332.479,"body":"evidence against him in reality anyway."},{"startTime":4334.199,"endTime":4336.84,"body":"And you thought he seemed an unlikely"},{"startTime":4334.199,"endTime":4336.84,"body":"candidate for it."},{"startTime":4337.079,"endTime":4339.52,"body":"Yes there was no history of"},{"startTime":4340.56,"endTime":4344.0,"body":"violence towards women or anything"},{"startTime":4340.56,"endTime":4344.0,"body":"like that in his background."},{"startTime":4344.68,"endTime":4346.8,"body":"He appeared a fairly gentle character."},{"startTime":4347.079,"endTime":4349.119,"body":"The police were very excited"},{"startTime":4347.079,"endTime":4349.119,"body":"because he had an"},{"startTime":4349.119,"endTime":4352.68,"body":"interest in Wicca."},{"startTime":4353.279,"endTime":4356.8,"body":"But I was never very impressed that that"},{"startTime":4353.279,"endTime":4356.8,"body":"would make him a murderer."},{"startTime":4357.8,"endTime":4361.399,"body":"In your experience of defending many"},{"startTime":4361.399,"endTime":4366.239,"body":"murderers do you generally think"},{"startTime":4361.399,"endTime":4366.239,"body":"that they are guilty?"},{"startTime":4366.92,"endTime":4369.239,"body":"Is that the common thought?"},{"startTime":4369.439,"endTime":4373.72,"body":"I think as a barrister you try not to"},{"startTime":4373.72,"endTime":4375.88,"body":"think whether they're guilty"},{"startTime":4373.72,"endTime":4375.88,"body":"or not guilty."},{"startTime":4375.88,"endTime":4379.0,"body":"It's a job and you're just"},{"startTime":4375.88,"endTime":4379.0,"body":"acting on their"},{"startTime":4379.0,"endTime":4381.68,"body":"behalf and are their spokesperson"},{"startTime":4379.0,"endTime":4381.68,"body":"in court."},{"startTime":4382.479,"endTime":4385.76,"body":"So I never tried to go down the road of"},{"startTime":4385.76,"endTime":4388.319,"body":"working out whether somebody"},{"startTime":4385.76,"endTime":4388.319,"body":"is guilty or innocent."},{"startTime":4388.319,"endTime":4392.199,"body":"I mean obviously in some cases the"},{"startTime":4388.319,"endTime":4392.199,"body":"evidence is so overwhelming that"},{"startTime":4392.199,"endTime":4396.6,"body":"it can be obvious that they're guilty"},{"startTime":4392.199,"endTime":4396.6,"body":"and occasionally you do cases"},{"startTime":4396.6,"endTime":4402.64,"body":"like Colin Stagg where there is no"},{"startTime":4396.6,"endTime":4402.64,"body":"evidence at all or virtually no"},{"startTime":4402.64,"endTime":4404.399,"body":"evidence to connect them with the crime."},{"startTime":4405.72,"endTime":4409.96,"body":"So between those two extremes there"},{"startTime":4405.72,"endTime":4409.96,"body":"are the vast majority of cases"},{"startTime":4409.96,"endTime":4413.479,"body":"where I try not to form any view at all"},{"startTime":4413.479,"endTime":4415.359,"body":"personally as to whether they're"},{"startTime":4413.479,"endTime":4415.359,"body":"guilty or not."},{"startTime":4416.159,"endTime":4419.72,"body":"I suppose the difficulty comes, talking"},{"startTime":4416.159,"endTime":4419.72,"body":"generally now, is if they"},{"startTime":4419.72,"endTime":4423.92,"body":"want to plead not guilty and it's"},{"startTime":4419.72,"endTime":4423.92,"body":"clear that they are."},{"startTime":4424.92,"endTime":4427.96,"body":"That's not really a difficulty"},{"startTime":4424.92,"endTime":4427.96,"body":"for the barrister."},{"startTime":4427.96,"endTime":4429.56,"body":"The choice of whether to"},{"startTime":4427.96,"endTime":4429.56,"body":"plead guilty or not"},{"startTime":4429.56,"endTime":4432.479,"body":"guilty must always be that"},{"startTime":4429.56,"endTime":4432.479,"body":"of the defendant."},{"startTime":4433.68,"endTime":4436.359,"body":"We can advise but we have to"},{"startTime":4433.68,"endTime":4436.359,"body":"do what we're told."},{"startTime":4437.399,"endTime":4444.079,"body":"In reality there's not a great advantage"},{"startTime":4437.399,"endTime":4444.079,"body":"to a suspect to plead"},{"startTime":4444.079,"endTime":4447.279,"body":"guilty to murder as the penalty is set"},{"startTime":4447.279,"endTime":4450.76,"body":"by law to be one of life imprisonment."},{"startTime":4452.239,"endTime":4459.239,"body":"And because of that I think there are"},{"startTime":4452.239,"endTime":4459.239,"body":"far fewer pleas of guilty in"},{"startTime":4459.239,"endTime":4462.72,"body":"murder cases than in other cases."},{"startTime":4463.6,"endTime":4467.96,"body":"Of course there are some cases where"},{"startTime":4463.6,"endTime":4467.96,"body":"you'll get an offer of"},{"startTime":4467.96,"endTime":4469.6,"body":"manslaughter from the prosecution."},{"startTime":4470.8,"endTime":4474.92,"body":"Then of course that's a very tempting"},{"startTime":4470.8,"endTime":4474.92,"body":"offer for a defendant who"},{"startTime":4474.92,"endTime":4477.239,"body":"will then get a fixed term of"},{"startTime":4477.239,"endTime":4481.0,"body":"imprisonment rather than an open-ended"},{"startTime":4477.239,"endTime":4481.0,"body":"life sentence."},{"startTime":4481.479,"endTime":4485.8,"body":"Yes but you don't find any difficulty"},{"startTime":4481.479,"endTime":4485.8,"body":"and I know this is the common"},{"startTime":4485.8,"endTime":4487.96,"body":"question you will have been asked"},{"startTime":4485.8,"endTime":4487.96,"body":"a thousand times."},{"startTime":4488.479,"endTime":4492.359,"body":"You find no difficulty in standing"},{"startTime":4488.479,"endTime":4492.359,"body":"up and putting the case that"},{"startTime":4492.359,"endTime":4495.479,"body":"they didn't do the crime when you're"},{"startTime":4492.359,"endTime":4495.479,"body":"pretty certain they did."},{"startTime":4495.8,"endTime":4496.239,"body":"None at all."},{"startTime":4496.96,"endTime":4499.279,"body":"I mean it is the job that we have."},{"startTime":4499.279,"endTime":4503.359,"body":"I presume it's like a surgeon operating"},{"startTime":4499.279,"endTime":4503.359,"body":"on somebody who has abused"},{"startTime":4503.359,"endTime":4506.399,"body":"their body with cigarettes or"},{"startTime":4506.399,"endTime":4510.279,"body":"alcohol and trying to save their life."},{"startTime":4512.279,"endTime":4514.56,"body":"So Colin Stagg was charged and if"},{"startTime":4514.56,"endTime":4516.92,"body":"convicted faced life imprisonment."},{"startTime":4518.439,"endTime":4520.92,"body":"It was the task and challenge of Bill"},{"startTime":4520.92,"endTime":4523.84,"body":"Clegg to ensure that did not happen."},{"startTime":4527.52,"endTime":4530.72,"body":"So you set about preparing the"},{"startTime":4527.52,"endTime":4530.72,"body":"defence for Colin Stagg."},{"startTime":4531.279,"endTime":4535.52,"body":"What did he say to you when you had"},{"startTime":4531.279,"endTime":4535.52,"body":"to tell him that Detective"},{"startTime":4535.52,"endTime":4538.319,"body":"Lizzie James was an undercover"},{"startTime":4535.52,"endTime":4538.319,"body":"police officer?"},{"startTime":4538.64,"endTime":4539.8,"body":"What did he make of that?"},{"startTime":4540.279,"endTime":4541.199,"body":"He must have been shocked."},{"startTime":4542.039,"endTime":4544.88,"body":"Yes I wasn't present when"},{"startTime":4542.039,"endTime":4544.88,"body":"he discovered that."},{"startTime":4545.439,"endTime":4548.159,"body":"I think the solicitor told"},{"startTime":4545.439,"endTime":4548.159,"body":"him before I went"},{"startTime":4548.159,"endTime":4553.199,"body":"for a conference but he felt"},{"startTime":4548.159,"endTime":4553.199,"body":"betrayed obviously."},{"startTime":4554.159,"endTime":4558.399,"body":"To his mind he had formed a genuine"},{"startTime":4554.159,"endTime":4558.399,"body":"relationship with this woman"},{"startTime":4558.399,"endTime":4562.399,"body":"and I think he felt rather foolish."},{"startTime":4562.399,"endTime":4569.359,"body":"So we come to the first stage of the"},{"startTime":4562.399,"endTime":4569.359,"body":"trial and you were facing a"},{"startTime":4569.359,"endTime":4573.76,"body":"task of securing his release because"},{"startTime":4569.359,"endTime":4573.76,"body":"he was on remand"},{"startTime":4573.76,"endTime":4575.359,"body":"wasn't he, and had been,"},{"startTime":4573.76,"endTime":4575.359,"body":"for some months."},{"startTime":4575.64,"endTime":4576.68,"body":"Yes over a year I think."},{"startTime":4577.76,"endTime":4582.439,"body":"Quite a burden for you because you"},{"startTime":4577.76,"endTime":4582.439,"body":"obviously wanted to secure his"},{"startTime":4582.439,"endTime":4583.8,"body":"release if you thought there wasn't"},{"startTime":4583.8,"endTime":4585.399,"body":"the evidence there to convict him."},{"startTime":4586.439,"endTime":4589.439,"body":"A year on remand was not unusual in those"},{"startTime":4589.439,"endTime":4593.239,"body":"days for somebody charged with"},{"startTime":4589.439,"endTime":4593.239,"body":"a serious offence."},{"startTime":4595.439,"endTime":4599.96,"body":"So there was nothing particularly unusual"},{"startTime":4595.439,"endTime":4599.96,"body":"about that and of course"},{"startTime":4599.96,"endTime":4602.0,"body":"there had been protracted"},{"startTime":4599.96,"endTime":4602.0,"body":"proceedings in the"},{"startTime":4602.0,"endTime":4604.92,"body":"Magistrates Court that had"},{"startTime":4602.0,"endTime":4604.92,"body":"taken many months."},{"startTime":4605.8,"endTime":4610.68,"body":"Did you feel a particular pressure and"},{"startTime":4605.8,"endTime":4610.68,"body":"anxiety thinking I'm fairly"},{"startTime":4610.68,"endTime":4614.359,"body":"certain he didn't do this so I've"},{"startTime":4610.68,"endTime":4614.359,"body":"just got to get him off?"},{"startTime":4616.72,"endTime":4620.0,"body":"I remember reading the transcripts of the"},{"startTime":4620.0,"endTime":4622.079,"body":"undercover operation all"},{"startTime":4620.0,"endTime":4622.079,"body":"of which were taped"},{"startTime":4623.239,"endTime":4626.56,"body":"and I was completely and"},{"startTime":4623.239,"endTime":4626.56,"body":"utterly astonished."},{"startTime":4626.8,"endTime":4629.439,"body":"I couldn't believe what I was reading"},{"startTime":4629.439,"endTime":4632.279,"body":"that the police had behaved in this way."},{"startTime":4632.279,"endTime":4635.279,"body":"It seemed to be so obviously"},{"startTime":4632.279,"endTime":4635.279,"body":"inadmissible in a"},{"startTime":4635.279,"endTime":4638.119,"body":"court of law and so stupid for"},{"startTime":4635.279,"endTime":4638.119,"body":"them to have done it."},{"startTime":4638.56,"endTime":4642.079,"body":"I found it incredible and the moment"},{"startTime":4638.56,"endTime":4642.079,"body":"I read that I knew that no"},{"startTime":4642.079,"endTime":4644.439,"body":"I found it incredible and the moment"},{"startTime":4642.079,"endTime":4644.439,"body":"I read that I knew that no"},{"startTime":4644.439,"endTime":4647.079,"body":"judge worth his salt would ever"},{"startTime":4647.079,"endTime":4648.92,"body":"allow the evidence to be given in court."},{"startTime":4649.68,"endTime":4651.159,"body":"And so you thought about trying to"},{"startTime":4651.159,"endTime":4654.399,"body":"have the evidence excluded, thrown out?"},{"startTime":4654.399,"endTime":4654.68,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":4655.68,"endTime":4658.84,"body":"But of course you could never be 100%"},{"startTime":4655.68,"endTime":4658.84,"body":"sure that that would happen?"},{"startTime":4659.84,"endTime":4661.6,"body":"No we were pretty confident though."},{"startTime":4663.239,"endTime":4666.92,"body":"We could find no case where"},{"startTime":4663.239,"endTime":4666.92,"body":"evidence obtained"},{"startTime":4666.92,"endTime":4670.52,"body":"by this method had been admitted"},{"startTime":4666.92,"endTime":4670.52,"body":"before a jury."},{"startTime":4670.68,"endTime":4676.239,"body":"And this I suppose reflected the immense"},{"startTime":4670.68,"endTime":4676.239,"body":"public and media pressure"},{"startTime":4676.239,"endTime":4679.479,"body":"that you've alluded to on the police"},{"startTime":4676.239,"endTime":4679.479,"body":"to secure a conviction."},{"startTime":4679.72,"endTime":4682.6,"body":"Can you understand why they resorted"},{"startTime":4679.72,"endTime":4682.6,"body":"to these tactics?"},{"startTime":4684.0,"endTime":4685.0,"body":"Well I understand it."},{"startTime":4685.359,"endTime":4689.96,"body":"I don't agree with it but the police"},{"startTime":4685.359,"endTime":4689.96,"body":"were under enormous pressure."},{"startTime":4690.6,"endTime":4694.119,"body":"You see this repeated time and again"},{"startTime":4690.6,"endTime":4694.119,"body":"when there's a very high"},{"startTime":4694.119,"endTime":4697.239,"body":"profile case, no obvious suspect."},{"startTime":4697.84,"endTime":4701.56,"body":"The police are placed under huge pressure"},{"startTime":4697.84,"endTime":4701.56,"body":"and end up arresting"},{"startTime":4701.56,"endTime":4707.0,"body":"somebody, normally the local oddball,"},{"startTime":4701.56,"endTime":4707.0,"body":"working on the assumption"},{"startTime":4707.0,"endTime":4710.239,"body":"that well it must be him because"},{"startTime":4707.0,"endTime":4710.239,"body":"we can't find anyone else."},{"startTime":4711.039,"endTime":4715.159,"body":"And I don't think they ever want"},{"startTime":4711.039,"endTime":4715.159,"body":"to convict an innocent man."},{"startTime":4715.159,"endTime":4717.52,"body":"They convince themselves that the"},{"startTime":4717.52,"endTime":4719.56,"body":"person they are arresting is guilty."},{"startTime":4720.6,"endTime":4723.68,"body":"Do you think things are just as bad"},{"startTime":4720.6,"endTime":4723.68,"body":"now or have things improved?"},{"startTime":4724.479,"endTime":4726.279,"body":"Well I don't think they've improved"},{"startTime":4724.479,"endTime":4726.279,"body":"a great deal."},{"startTime":4726.479,"endTime":4729.72,"body":"I mean one could say that the police behaved"},{"startTime":4726.479,"endTime":4729.72,"body":"in much the same way"},{"startTime":4730.079,"endTime":4734.479,"body":"following the murder of Jill Dando"},{"startTime":4730.079,"endTime":4734.479,"body":"arresting Barry George."},{"startTime":4734.8,"endTime":4736.119,"body":"Who you also defended?"},{"startTime":4736.479,"endTime":4738.119,"body":"Who I did also defend when there"},{"startTime":4738.119,"endTime":4740.359,"body":"was no evidence against him at all."},{"startTime":4740.479,"endTime":4744.279,"body":"And then much more recently the"},{"startTime":4740.479,"endTime":4744.279,"body":"Joanna Yates case in Bristol"},{"startTime":4745.159,"endTime":4747.64,"body":"where the police arrested"},{"startTime":4745.159,"endTime":4747.64,"body":"Mr Jefferies, the"},{"startTime":4747.64,"endTime":4750.439,"body":"man with the dyed hair who"},{"startTime":4747.64,"endTime":4750.439,"body":"was the landlord."},{"startTime":4750.84,"endTime":4754.159,"body":"So there is a history really of the"},{"startTime":4750.84,"endTime":4754.159,"body":"police in these very high"},{"startTime":4754.159,"endTime":4762.079,"body":"profile cases arresting A) the wrong"},{"startTime":4754.159,"endTime":4762.079,"body":"man and B) the local oddball."},{"startTime":4762.6,"endTime":4764.68,"body":"So coming to the trial, were you nervous?"},{"startTime":4765.399,"endTime":4769.399,"body":"Was it an anxiety-making situation"},{"startTime":4769.399,"endTime":4771.6,"body":"with all the press and media outside?"},{"startTime":4772.92,"endTime":4776.56,"body":"I think one's always nervous before"},{"startTime":4772.92,"endTime":4776.56,"body":"starting a big trial."},{"startTime":4777.52,"endTime":4779.96,"body":"I think if you weren't you probably"},{"startTime":4777.52,"endTime":4779.96,"body":"shouldn't be doing the job."},{"startTime":4780.52,"endTime":4784.079,"body":"And I've heard you say you weren't"},{"startTime":4780.52,"endTime":4784.079,"body":"100% sure although you were"},{"startTime":4784.119,"endTime":4786.68,"body":"hopeful that the evidence"},{"startTime":4784.119,"endTime":4786.68,"body":"would be excluded."},{"startTime":4786.68,"endTime":4787.84,"body":"That's what you'd argued for."},{"startTime":4788.56,"endTime":4792.64,"body":"And then there came a point when you"},{"startTime":4788.56,"endTime":4792.64,"body":"knew the judge was going to,"},{"startTime":4792.8,"endTime":4795.039,"body":"well he said so, was going"},{"startTime":4792.8,"endTime":4795.039,"body":"to throw it out."},{"startTime":4795.439,"endTime":4798.96,"body":"Yes I mean I think the legal argument"},{"startTime":4795.439,"endTime":4798.96,"body":"had taken two or three days"},{"startTime":4798.96,"endTime":4804.039,"body":"then the judge rose for a couple of"},{"startTime":4798.96,"endTime":4804.039,"body":"days to consider his judgment"},{"startTime":4804.039,"endTime":4808.52,"body":"and it wasn't a case of him handing down"},{"startTime":4808.52,"endTime":4810.76,"body":"a judgment as one might have these days."},{"startTime":4811.439,"endTime":4815.319,"body":"He read it out in court and it took"},{"startTime":4815.319,"endTime":4819.479,"body":"certainly well over an hour for"},{"startTime":4815.319,"endTime":4819.479,"body":"him to read it out."},{"startTime":4819.88,"endTime":4821.439,"body":"And at what point during that hour"},{"startTime":4821.439,"endTime":4823.359,"body":"did you think it's going our way?"},{"startTime":4824.039,"endTime":4829.199,"body":"There was a point where the judge"},{"startTime":4824.039,"endTime":4829.199,"body":"criticised the undercover"},{"startTime":4829.199,"endTime":4832.359,"body":"operation in terms that made me confident"},{"startTime":4833.0,"endTime":4835.079,"body":"that he was going to exclude"},{"startTime":4833.0,"endTime":4835.079,"body":"the evidence."},{"startTime":4835.079,"endTime":4838.8,"body":"You began to think we're all right"},{"startTime":4835.079,"endTime":4838.8,"body":"we're going to get this."},{"startTime":4839.439,"endTime":4841.88,"body":"Yes I thought well that's that's"},{"startTime":4839.439,"endTime":4841.88,"body":"it we're home and dry."},{"startTime":4842.399,"endTime":4844.52,"body":"So you then went and you met with Colin"},{"startTime":4844.52,"endTime":4848.159,"body":"Stagg and I think you've described"},{"startTime":4844.52,"endTime":4848.159,"body":"that moment."},{"startTime":4848.52,"endTime":4849.68,"body":"Was that an emotional moment?"},{"startTime":4850.079,"endTime":4851.68,"body":"Did...he gave you a hug I think?"},{"startTime":4852.319,"endTime":4855.039,"body":"Yes he was obviously relieved."},{"startTime":4855.8,"endTime":4859.439,"body":"We managed to get him back to my"},{"startTime":4855.8,"endTime":4859.439,"body":"chambers because it wasn't"},{"startTime":4859.439,"endTime":4861.72,"body":"possible near the Old Bailey to"},{"startTime":4861.72,"endTime":4863.72,"body":"speak to him once he'd been released."},{"startTime":4863.72,"endTime":4866.439,"body":"There were so many press around and"},{"startTime":4866.439,"endTime":4868.72,"body":"so many people trying to buy his story."},{"startTime":4868.96,"endTime":4870.359,"body":"Yes well how did you get him back?"},{"startTime":4870.6,"endTime":4872.359,"body":"Did you have to smuggle him"},{"startTime":4870.6,"endTime":4872.359,"body":"into a vehicle?"},{"startTime":4872.6,"endTime":4877.159,"body":"We smuggled him into a taxi and"},{"startTime":4872.6,"endTime":4877.159,"body":"got back to chambers."},{"startTime":4877.439,"endTime":4879.92,"body":"Was there a blanket over his head"},{"startTime":4877.439,"endTime":4879.92,"body":"in the time honoured fashion?"},{"startTime":4880.72,"endTime":4889.6,"body":"We didn't go to those lengths but we"},{"startTime":4880.72,"endTime":4889.6,"body":"did get him back and really"},{"startTime":4889.6,"endTime":4893.199,"body":"just had a sort of signing off with him."},{"startTime":4895.399,"endTime":4896.399,"body":"And how was he?"},{"startTime":4896.399,"endTime":4897.199,"body":"How was he reacting?"},{"startTime":4897.8,"endTime":4902.6,"body":"Well I think he was a bit stunned to"},{"startTime":4897.8,"endTime":4902.6,"body":"be honest by it all and he was"},{"startTime":4902.6,"endTime":4908.76,"body":"considering an offer by the News of the"},{"startTime":4902.6,"endTime":4908.76,"body":"World to buy his story which was"},{"startTime":4908.76,"endTime":4912.079,"body":"dependent on him taking and passing a lie"},{"startTime":4912.079,"endTime":4916.84,"body":"detector test and I was rather"},{"startTime":4912.079,"endTime":4916.84,"body":"suspicious of this."},{"startTime":4917.199,"endTime":4917.439,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":4917.76,"endTime":4921.0,"body":"Because if he failed the test he would"},{"startTime":4917.76,"endTime":4921.0,"body":"get nothing"},{"startTime":4921.199,"endTime":4923.52,"body":"But he insisted"},{"startTime":4923.52,"endTime":4929.439,"body":"rather against my advice to take the"},{"startTime":4923.52,"endTime":4929.439,"body":"test and passed it with flying colours"},{"startTime":4929.96,"endTime":4931.319,"body":"And he then of course went on to get"},{"startTime":4931.319,"endTime":4933.279,"body":"compensation to do even more money."},{"startTime":4933.279,"endTime":4935.399,"body":"I mean I think he got about over 700 000."},{"startTime":4936.199,"endTime":4940.119,"body":"Yes from various sources but a lot"},{"startTime":4936.199,"endTime":4940.119,"body":"of money from the police."},{"startTime":4940.8,"endTime":4944.439,"body":"Not that that would compensate for"},{"startTime":4940.8,"endTime":4944.439,"body":"nearly a year in prison."},{"startTime":4945.479,"endTime":4949.319,"body":"No but also it's a life-changing event"},{"startTime":4945.479,"endTime":4949.319,"body":"and you're not the same"},{"startTime":4949.319,"endTime":4951.279,"body":"person at the end as you were"},{"startTime":4949.319,"endTime":4951.279,"body":"at the beginning."},{"startTime":4951.68,"endTime":4954.72,"body":"No and I think you've written about"},{"startTime":4951.68,"endTime":4954.72,"body":"this and you've said that"},{"startTime":4954.72,"endTime":4959.159,"body":"you've built up a bit of a relationship"},{"startTime":4954.72,"endTime":4959.159,"body":"with him that you in the"},{"startTime":4959.159,"endTime":4960.52,"body":"case of some of the people you've"},{"startTime":4960.52,"endTime":4962.119,"body":"defended they even become friends."},{"startTime":4962.8,"endTime":4964.64,"body":"I don't think that was the"},{"startTime":4962.8,"endTime":4964.64,"body":"case with him was it?"},{"startTime":4965.319,"endTime":4974.119,"body":"No I didn't see him again after the"},{"startTime":4965.319,"endTime":4974.119,"body":"week of the trial but I was"},{"startTime":4974.119,"endTime":4976.76,"body":"kept in contact by the solicitor"},{"startTime":4974.119,"endTime":4976.76,"body":"who was helping"},{"startTime":4976.76,"endTime":4980.68,"body":"him with the media contact"},{"startTime":4976.76,"endTime":4980.68,"body":"and things like that."},{"startTime":4980.68,"endTime":4982.399,"body":"Who was the solicitor for him?"},{"startTime":4982.399,"endTime":4983.96,"body":"The solicitor was Ian Ryan"},{"startTime":4985.0,"endTime":4990.359,"body":"who was a leading criminal solicitor"},{"startTime":4985.0,"endTime":4990.359,"body":"in London at the time."},{"startTime":4990.76,"endTime":4992.199,"body":"But you nonetheless I think offered"},{"startTime":4992.279,"endTime":4993.88,"body":"Colin a bit of support didn't you?"},{"startTime":4993.88,"endTime":4996.64,"body":"You advised him on what to do with this"},{"startTime":4993.88,"endTime":4996.64,"body":"large sum of compensation."},{"startTime":4997.119,"endTime":4998.76,"body":"Yeah I advised him to buy"},{"startTime":4997.119,"endTime":4998.76,"body":"council flat."},{"startTime":4999.0,"endTime":4999.88,"body":"Did you do that?"},{"startTime":4999.88,"endTime":5000.039,"body":"No."},{"startTime":5002.6,"endTime":5004.119,"body":"So he didn't always take your advice."},{"startTime":5004.399,"endTime":5004.6,"body":"No."},{"startTime":5005.079,"endTime":5006.68,"body":"And what about tell me about his dog?"},{"startTime":5006.68,"endTime":5008.68,"body":"I think you said that his"},{"startTime":5006.68,"endTime":5008.68,"body":"main concern the"},{"startTime":5008.68,"endTime":5011.84,"body":"whole time he was in Brixton"},{"startTime":5008.68,"endTime":5011.84,"body":"was for his dog."},{"startTime":5012.199,"endTime":5017.439,"body":"Yes well the dog was actually being"},{"startTime":5012.199,"endTime":5017.439,"body":"looked after by a charity and"},{"startTime":5017.439,"endTime":5021.8,"body":"we had reports that it was being very"},{"startTime":5021.8,"endTime":5023.72,"body":"well looked after and was"},{"startTime":5021.8,"endTime":5023.72,"body":"perfectly happy."},{"startTime":5023.96,"endTime":5026.279,"body":"I think you sent junior counsel"},{"startTime":5023.96,"endTime":5026.279,"body":"down to see the dog."},{"startTime":5026.52,"endTime":5028.279,"body":"Well I didn't send him he went of his own"},{"startTime":5028.279,"endTime":5031.0,"body":"volition but he did go down"},{"startTime":5028.279,"endTime":5031.0,"body":"to see the dog yes."},{"startTime":5031.319,"endTime":5033.56,"body":"And did Colin Stagg get the dog back?"},{"startTime":5033.84,"endTime":5034.039,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":5036.119,"endTime":5039.359,"body":"And was the dog so that that"},{"startTime":5040.6,"endTime":5043.079,"body":"So that was a"},{"startTime":5040.6,"endTime":5043.079,"body":"great triumph for you and I"},{"startTime":5043.079,"endTime":5047.119,"body":"think that you said it was a career break"},{"startTime":5043.079,"endTime":5047.119,"body":"moment for you wasn't it?"},{"startTime":5047.119,"endTime":5053.159,"body":"I mean winning that case and having"},{"startTime":5047.119,"endTime":5053.159,"body":"that evidence thrown out."},{"startTime":5053.279,"endTime":5056.68,"body":"Yes I mean it was curious in a way"},{"startTime":5053.279,"endTime":5056.68,"body":"because I think probably any"},{"startTime":5056.68,"endTime":5059.88,"body":"lawyer worth his salt could have got"},{"startTime":5056.68,"endTime":5059.88,"body":"the evidence thrown out."},{"startTime":5060.52,"endTime":5066.439,"body":"It just happened to be me but the"},{"startTime":5060.52,"endTime":5066.439,"body":"publicity surrounding the case"},{"startTime":5066.439,"endTime":5069.56,"body":"certainly encouraged I think people to"},{"startTime":5069.56,"endTime":5071.6,"body":"brief me in other high profile cases."},{"startTime":5072.159,"endTime":5074.68,"body":"I mean obviously you were known before"},{"startTime":5072.159,"endTime":5074.68,"body":"that otherwise you would"},{"startTime":5074.68,"endTime":5078.279,"body":"have got the case in the first place"},{"startTime":5074.68,"endTime":5078.279,"body":"but after that I think you"},{"startTime":5078.279,"endTime":5081.68,"body":"were absolutely the defence"},{"startTime":5078.279,"endTime":5081.68,"body":"barrister of choice."},{"startTime":5082.319,"endTime":5083.52,"body":"Well I'm not sure about that but"},{"startTime":5083.52,"endTime":5085.039,"body":"anyway I certainly have plenty of work."},{"startTime":5085.8,"endTime":5089.319,"body":"known but this was a big career breaking"},{"startTime":5085.8,"endTime":5089.319,"body":"case for you or career"},{"startTime":5089.319,"endTime":5093.319,"body":"making case tell me about your practice"},{"startTime":5089.319,"endTime":5093.319,"body":"at that point what kind of"},{"startTime":5093.319,"endTime":5095.199,"body":"cases was this a very ordinary case?"},{"startTime":5096.0,"endTime":5100.199,"body":"Well I've been in silk then for about"},{"startTime":5096.0,"endTime":5100.199,"body":"three years and I'd had a"},{"startTime":5100.199,"endTime":5104.239,"body":"very large criminal practice as a junior"},{"startTime":5100.199,"endTime":5104.239,"body":"involving quite a lot of"},{"startTime":5104.239,"endTime":5109.8,"body":"leading work and since taking silk"},{"startTime":5104.239,"endTime":5109.8,"body":"I'd been very busy but I'd"},{"startTime":5109.8,"endTime":5114.0,"body":"never been instructed in a case that"},{"startTime":5109.8,"endTime":5114.0,"body":"had the profile of this"},{"startTime":5114.0,"endTime":5119.96,"body":"particular case before so it was I"},{"startTime":5114.0,"endTime":5119.96,"body":"presume the highest profile case"},{"startTime":5119.96,"endTime":5127.119,"body":"I had then been involved in and following"},{"startTime":5119.96,"endTime":5127.119,"body":"the outcome of the case"},{"startTime":5128.8,"endTime":5130.399,"body":"well my career didn't look back."},{"startTime":5131.319,"endTime":5135.239,"body":"And these cases that you did they"},{"startTime":5131.319,"endTime":5135.239,"body":"invariably involved and this one"},{"startTime":5135.239,"endTime":5137.56,"body":"certainly the most horrific detail"},{"startTime":5137.56,"endTime":5140.079,"body":"how did you manage to cope with that?"},{"startTime":5140.439,"endTime":5142.199,"body":"Were you good at putting it"},{"startTime":5140.439,"endTime":5142.199,"body":"out of your mind?"},{"startTime":5143.239,"endTime":5154.6,"body":"Yes I mean all murder cases have"},{"startTime":5143.239,"endTime":5154.6,"body":"horrific detail in them"},{"startTime":5155.0,"endTime":5159.0,"body":"and of course you don't close your"},{"startTime":5155.0,"endTime":5159.0,"body":"eyes to the impact it has on"},{"startTime":5159.0,"endTime":5164.68,"body":"friends and family of people who've"},{"startTime":5159.0,"endTime":5164.68,"body":"been killed but I think in"},{"startTime":5164.68,"endTime":5169.8,"body":"order to survive as a barrister you've"},{"startTime":5164.68,"endTime":5169.8,"body":"just got to put all that out"},{"startTime":5169.8,"endTime":5172.84,"body":"of your mind probably like a surgeon does"},{"startTime":5172.84,"endTime":5175.199,"body":"when he's sticking a knife"},{"startTime":5172.84,"endTime":5175.199,"body":"into somebody's chest"},{"startTime":5175.88,"endTime":5177.399,"body":"you're just there doing a job."},{"startTime":5178.159,"endTime":5180.52,"body":"Well you must be mentally quite"},{"startTime":5178.159,"endTime":5180.52,"body":"a resilient person."},{"startTime":5181.479,"endTime":5183.52,"body":"I think you do need to be resilient"},{"startTime":5183.52,"endTime":5187.68,"body":"to do the job of a criminal barrister."},{"startTime":5188.079,"endTime":5189.439,"body":"And what other qualities have you"},{"startTime":5189.439,"endTime":5191.52,"body":"got that make you good at your job?"},{"startTime":5193.039,"endTime":5195.239,"body":"Oh you'd have to ask other"},{"startTime":5193.039,"endTime":5195.239,"body":"people that I think."},{"startTime":5196.399,"endTime":5199.279,"body":"A good sense of humour, keep"},{"startTime":5196.399,"endTime":5199.279,"body":"things in proportion?"},{"startTime":5199.72,"endTime":5205.72,"body":"You need to have a sense of humour"},{"startTime":5199.72,"endTime":5205.72,"body":"and I think it helps to be"},{"startTime":5205.72,"endTime":5210.64,"body":"approachable because if you're defending"},{"startTime":5205.72,"endTime":5210.64,"body":"somebody for murder"},{"startTime":5210.64,"endTime":5214.88,"body":"they're often inadequate they're almost"},{"startTime":5210.64,"endTime":5214.88,"body":"certainly frightened of"},{"startTime":5214.88,"endTime":5218.68,"body":"their situation and you've got to"},{"startTime":5219.92,"endTime":5225.479,"body":"make sure that they realise that you're"},{"startTime":5219.92,"endTime":5225.479,"body":"on their side and that"},{"startTime":5225.479,"endTime":5228.52,"body":"that's not something that's easily"},{"startTime":5225.479,"endTime":5228.52,"body":"achieved you're often looked at"},{"startTime":5228.52,"endTime":5231.279,"body":"as part of the establishment when"},{"startTime":5228.52,"endTime":5231.279,"body":"they're the opposite."},{"startTime":5232.64,"endTime":5237.319,"body":"So sometimes I wouldn't necessarily"},{"startTime":5232.64,"endTime":5237.319,"body":"talk about the case very much"},{"startTime":5237.319,"endTime":5240.96,"body":"at all when I first meet somebody I"},{"startTime":5237.319,"endTime":5240.96,"body":"tried to establish a rapport"},{"startTime":5240.96,"endTime":5245.68,"body":"with them I certainly did with Colin"},{"startTime":5240.96,"endTime":5245.68,"body":"Stagg and then only turn to"},{"startTime":5245.68,"endTime":5247.68,"body":"the evidence in the case perhaps at the"},{"startTime":5247.68,"endTime":5249.68,"body":"second or even perhaps the third meeting."},{"startTime":5250.319,"endTime":5253.039,"body":"So that you know they build"},{"startTime":5250.319,"endTime":5253.039,"body":"up their trust in you?"},{"startTime":5253.039,"endTime":5253.84,"body":"That's the aim."},{"startTime":5254.319,"endTime":5257.359,"body":"So you mainly have done defence"},{"startTime":5254.319,"endTime":5257.359,"body":"work in your career?"},{"startTime":5257.68,"endTime":5258.0,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":5258.0,"endTime":5260.359,"body":"Is there a particular appeal to doing"},{"startTime":5260.359,"endTime":5262.079,"body":"those cases as opposed to prosecuting?"},{"startTime":5262.96,"endTime":5265.64,"body":"I've always enjoyed the challenge"},{"startTime":5265.64,"endTime":5267.52,"body":"of defending rather than prosecuting."},{"startTime":5268.279,"endTime":5270.0,"body":"I think I'm better at it."},{"startTime":5270.199,"endTime":5275.52,"body":"And I think being attracted to the law"},{"startTime":5270.199,"endTime":5275.52,"body":"at the beginning by watching"},{"startTime":5275.52,"endTime":5278.279,"body":"Perry Mason on television he"},{"startTime":5278.279,"endTime":5280.56,"body":"defended all the time and"},{"startTime":5278.279,"endTime":5280.56,"body":"never lost a case."},{"startTime":5281.399,"endTime":5283.159,"body":"Well I largely defended all"},{"startTime":5281.399,"endTime":5283.159,"body":"the time and I'm"},{"startTime":5283.159,"endTime":5284.92,"body":"afraid that didn't have his"},{"startTime":5283.159,"endTime":5284.92,"body":"success record."},{"startTime":5287.359,"endTime":5291.239,"body":"Justice had been secured for Colin"},{"startTime":5287.359,"endTime":5291.239,"body":"Stagg, but it had not been"},{"startTime":5291.239,"endTime":5293.439,"body":"secured for Rachel Nickell and her family."},{"startTime":5294.239,"endTime":5300.199,"body":"That was only to come 16 years after"},{"startTime":5294.239,"endTime":5300.199,"body":"her murder in 2008 through a"},{"startTime":5300.199,"endTime":5303.199,"body":"mix of coincidence and scientific"},{"startTime":5300.199,"endTime":5303.199,"body":"advances."},{"startTime":5308.68,"endTime":5310.64,"body":"Well one of the things you"},{"startTime":5308.68,"endTime":5310.64,"body":"then went on to get"},{"startTime":5310.64,"endTime":5315.0,"body":"and this is in a way quite an"},{"startTime":5310.64,"endTime":5315.0,"body":"amazing coincidence"},{"startTime":5316.159,"endTime":5319.64,"body":"was the case of a man who had been"},{"startTime":5319.64,"endTime":5323.64,"body":"charged and arrested over two murders."},{"startTime":5324.52,"endTime":5326.359,"body":"Can you tell me a little bit"},{"startTime":5324.52,"endTime":5326.359,"body":"about how this next"},{"startTime":5326.359,"endTime":5329.76,"body":"case arose and how you came"},{"startTime":5326.359,"endTime":5329.76,"body":"to be involved with it?"},{"startTime":5330.039,"endTime":5334.359,"body":"Yes this is the case of Robert"},{"startTime":5330.039,"endTime":5334.359,"body":"Napper and I was"},{"startTime":5334.359,"endTime":5338.119,"body":"instructed by a firm in Kent"},{"startTime":5334.359,"endTime":5338.119,"body":"to act for him."},{"startTime":5338.119,"endTime":5340.159,"body":"He'd been charged with the murder of"},{"startTime":5340.159,"endTime":5342.68,"body":"Samantha Bissett and her young daughter."},{"startTime":5343.239,"endTime":5345.359,"body":"This was another truly horrific case."},{"startTime":5345.359,"endTime":5347.319,"body":"It was unbelievably horrific."},{"startTime":5347.56,"endTime":5352.279,"body":"They'd been murdered in their basement"},{"startTime":5347.56,"endTime":5352.279,"body":"flat on the edge of"},{"startTime":5352.279,"endTime":5354.119,"body":"Plumstead Common in South London."},{"startTime":5354.88,"endTime":5357.239,"body":"It was a very brutal murder."},{"startTime":5358.84,"endTime":5364.159,"body":"The injuries were far more extensive"},{"startTime":5358.84,"endTime":5364.159,"body":"than was necessary to kill and"},{"startTime":5364.159,"endTime":5368.52,"body":"the mother had been sexually"},{"startTime":5364.159,"endTime":5368.52,"body":"interfered with."},{"startTime":5369.52,"endTime":5371.079,"body":"She had literally just opened the"},{"startTime":5371.079,"endTime":5372.76,"body":"door of her flat and let him in."},{"startTime":5373.359,"endTime":5374.56,"body":"That was what people"},{"startTime":5374.56,"endTime":5375.72,"body":"assumed had happened."},{"startTime":5376.279,"endTime":5378.039,"body":"There appeared to be no"},{"startTime":5376.279,"endTime":5378.039,"body":"other explanation."},{"startTime":5378.359,"endTime":5381.56,"body":"There's certainly no contact"},{"startTime":5378.359,"endTime":5381.56,"body":"between them before."},{"startTime":5381.56,"endTime":5383.159,"body":"They didn't know each other"},{"startTime":5381.56,"endTime":5383.159,"body":"or anything like that."},{"startTime":5383.96,"endTime":5386.319,"body":"So that must have been what had happened."},{"startTime":5387.319,"endTime":5389.439,"body":"So you were sent the legal"},{"startTime":5387.319,"endTime":5389.439,"body":"papers in this case?"},{"startTime":5389.76,"endTime":5390.119,"body":"I was."},{"startTime":5390.319,"endTime":5392.039,"body":"And you remember I think don't"},{"startTime":5392.039,"endTime":5394.039,"body":"you, reading them for the first time."},{"startTime":5394.439,"endTime":5396.039,"body":"Tell me what came into your mind."},{"startTime":5396.439,"endTime":5400.0,"body":"Well as I was reading the"},{"startTime":5396.439,"endTime":5400.0,"body":"papers similarities"},{"startTime":5400.0,"endTime":5404.68,"body":"with the killing of Rachel Nickell"},{"startTime":5400.0,"endTime":5404.68,"body":"became obvious."},{"startTime":5405.56,"endTime":5408.319,"body":"They were both young mothers."},{"startTime":5409.68,"endTime":5414.039,"body":"They were both murdered in the presence"},{"startTime":5409.68,"endTime":5414.039,"body":"of a young child which"},{"startTime":5414.039,"endTime":5418.8,"body":"statistically is extremely rare"},{"startTime":5414.039,"endTime":5418.8,"body":"by a complete stranger"},{"startTime":5420.0,"endTime":5425.279,"body":"and both either on or immediately"},{"startTime":5420.0,"endTime":5425.279,"body":"adjacent to common land."},{"startTime":5426.84,"endTime":5431.319,"body":"Not only that, Napper looked very much"},{"startTime":5426.84,"endTime":5431.319,"body":"like Colin Stagg physically."},{"startTime":5431.76,"endTime":5432.319,"body":"Did he?"},{"startTime":5433.199,"endTime":5436.68,"body":"And going back to the Stagg case there"},{"startTime":5433.199,"endTime":5436.68,"body":"had been people who had seen"},{"startTime":5436.68,"endTime":5441.039,"body":"somebody who looked very like Colin"},{"startTime":5436.68,"endTime":5441.039,"body":"Stagg on the common."},{"startTime":5441.479,"endTime":5444.039,"body":"The police had assumed was Colin Stagg."},{"startTime":5445.64,"endTime":5448.079,"body":"In fact it was almost certainly Napper."},{"startTime":5449.279,"endTime":5454.68,"body":"So far as the Bissett murder is concerned,"},{"startTime":5449.279,"endTime":5454.68,"body":"Napper eventually pleaded"},{"startTime":5454.68,"endTime":5458.239,"body":"guilty to manslaughter on the grounds"},{"startTime":5454.68,"endTime":5458.239,"body":"of diminished responsibility."},{"startTime":5458.479,"endTime":5462.359,"body":"He was a severely mentally disturbed"},{"startTime":5462.359,"endTime":5465.239,"body":"and was in Broadmoor mental hospital."},{"startTime":5466.0,"endTime":5469.92,"body":"So you didn't at this stage raise"},{"startTime":5466.0,"endTime":5469.92,"body":"the case with him because it"},{"startTime":5469.92,"endTime":5472.039,"body":"wasn't relevant to what you were doing?"},{"startTime":5472.399,"endTime":5475.479,"body":"No it would've been professionally"},{"startTime":5472.399,"endTime":5475.479,"body":"improper."},{"startTime":5475.76,"endTime":5477.6,"body":"It was not for me to try to"},{"startTime":5475.76,"endTime":5477.6,"body":"solve another case."},{"startTime":5478.0,"endTime":5478.199,"body":"No."},{"startTime":5478.439,"endTime":5482.6,"body":"Now that all happened later but just"},{"startTime":5478.439,"endTime":5482.6,"body":"coming back to this case, you"},{"startTime":5482.6,"endTime":5485.279,"body":"went to visit Robert Napper"},{"startTime":5482.6,"endTime":5485.279,"body":"and where was he"},{"startTime":5485.279,"endTime":5487.199,"body":"at the point when you first"},{"startTime":5485.279,"endTime":5487.199,"body":"went to see him?"},{"startTime":5487.199,"endTime":5487.84,"body":"He was in Broadmoor."},{"startTime":5487.84,"endTime":5488.56,"body":"He was in Broadmoor."},{"startTime":5488.92,"endTime":5489.72,"body":"Tell me about that."},{"startTime":5490.079,"endTime":5492.92,"body":"You must have been before but"},{"startTime":5492.92,"endTime":5495.84,"body":"nonetheless quite a nerve"},{"startTime":5492.92,"endTime":5495.84,"body":"wracking experience."},{"startTime":5496.199,"endTime":5498.52,"body":"Yes I mean he was having delusions."},{"startTime":5500.319,"endTime":5503.8,"body":"I remember him telling me that Her"},{"startTime":5500.319,"endTime":5503.8,"body":"Majesty the Queen had been to"},{"startTime":5503.8,"endTime":5506.8,"body":"visit him the week before, that"},{"startTime":5503.8,"endTime":5506.8,"body":"I considered improbable."},{"startTime":5508.399,"endTime":5510.199,"body":"And he wasn't putting this on?"},{"startTime":5510.52,"endTime":5513.96,"body":"No no no he wasn't feigning"},{"startTime":5510.52,"endTime":5513.96,"body":"illness at all."},{"startTime":5513.96,"endTime":5516.279,"body":"The doctors were completely"},{"startTime":5513.96,"endTime":5516.279,"body":"convinced that he was"},{"startTime":5517.359,"endTime":5522.92,"body":"one of the illest patients they"},{"startTime":5517.359,"endTime":5522.92,"body":"had for a very long time."},{"startTime":5523.6,"endTime":5531.84,"body":"He thought that the murder had been"},{"startTime":5523.6,"endTime":5531.84,"body":"committed by him under"},{"startTime":5531.84,"endTime":5537.56,"body":"instructions from aliens and he had"},{"startTime":5531.84,"endTime":5537.56,"body":"a diary full of pictures of"},{"startTime":5537.56,"endTime":5544.68,"body":"spaceships landing in Plumstead Common"},{"startTime":5537.56,"endTime":5544.68,"body":"and was really leading a"},{"startTime":5544.68,"endTime":5548.359,"body":"life full of delusions and of course"},{"startTime":5544.68,"endTime":5548.359,"body":"had been responsible as we now"},{"startTime":5548.359,"endTime":5551.119,"body":"know for a number of other rapes"},{"startTime":5548.359,"endTime":5551.119,"body":"in the area as well."},{"startTime":5552.399,"endTime":5555.8,"body":"What was he like physically as"},{"startTime":5552.399,"endTime":5555.8,"body":"a person to meet as well?"},{"startTime":5556.56,"endTime":5560.72,"body":"He was just to look at an"},{"startTime":5556.56,"endTime":5560.72,"body":"ordinary young man."},{"startTime":5560.96,"endTime":5564.68,"body":"There was nothing physically"},{"startTime":5560.96,"endTime":5564.68,"body":"unusual about him."},{"startTime":5564.68,"endTime":5565.479,"body":"It was only when he opened his"},{"startTime":5565.479,"endTime":5570.319,"body":"mouth that he became obviously deranged."},{"startTime":5570.68,"endTime":5575.079,"body":"I think you describe him as a puny rather"},{"startTime":5570.68,"endTime":5575.079,"body":"weedy little individual."},{"startTime":5575.359,"endTime":5579.039,"body":"Yes he certainly wasn't a threatening"},{"startTime":5575.359,"endTime":5579.039,"body":"large man."},{"startTime":5579.399,"endTime":5580.68,"body":"Not at all."},{"startTime":5581.6,"endTime":5584.399,"body":"And was he prepared to admit"},{"startTime":5581.6,"endTime":5584.399,"body":"to the murders then?"},{"startTime":5585.079,"endTime":5589.199,"body":"It took a long time to convince him"},{"startTime":5585.079,"endTime":5589.199,"body":"that that was the right course"},{"startTime":5589.199,"endTime":5591.68,"body":"of action because..."},{"startTime":5593.439,"endTime":5594.159,"body":"Well he didn't"},{"startTime":5594.159,"endTime":5596.079,"body":"ever give any coherent instructions."},{"startTime":5596.319,"endTime":5602.399,"body":"He was probably very nearly insane"},{"startTime":5596.319,"endTime":5602.399,"body":"and indeed on one view he"},{"startTime":5602.399,"endTime":5608.6,"body":"probably was insane but it was altogether"},{"startTime":5602.399,"endTime":5608.6,"body":"probably the better"},{"startTime":5608.6,"endTime":5612.52,"body":"course of action for him to plead guilty"},{"startTime":5608.6,"endTime":5612.52,"body":"to manslaughter and have a"},{"startTime":5612.52,"endTime":5615.0,"body":"hospital order so he could be treated."},{"startTime":5615.68,"endTime":5617.84,"body":"So you and that's what happened?"},{"startTime":5617.92,"endTime":5618.279,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":5618.359,"endTime":5621.159,"body":"So he had his trial he was then ordered"},{"startTime":5621.159,"endTime":5623.479,"body":"to go to, sent to Broadmoor?"},{"startTime":5621.159,"endTime":5623.479,"body":"Yes"},{"startTime":5623.56,"endTime":5625.399,"body":"And he'll stay there"},{"startTime":5623.56,"endTime":5625.399,"body":"for the rest of his life."},{"startTime":5626.8,"endTime":5629.8,"body":"Then what happened to link that case"},{"startTime":5629.8,"endTime":5632.159,"body":"or his involvement with Rachel Nickell?"},{"startTime":5633.119,"endTime":5638.92,"body":"Well some of the police involved in"},{"startTime":5633.119,"endTime":5638.92,"body":"the Napper case had spotted the"},{"startTime":5638.92,"endTime":5644.56,"body":"obvious links with the Rachel Nickell"},{"startTime":5638.92,"endTime":5644.56,"body":"case and contacted the"},{"startTime":5644.56,"endTime":5649.0,"body":"investigating officers for the Nickell"},{"startTime":5644.56,"endTime":5649.0,"body":"case to alert them to this."},{"startTime":5650.119,"endTime":5654.92,"body":"And initially there was a degree of"},{"startTime":5650.119,"endTime":5654.92,"body":"reluctance to follow this up"},{"startTime":5654.92,"endTime":5658.64,"body":"because they felt that they'd already"},{"startTime":5654.92,"endTime":5658.64,"body":"solved the case and the"},{"startTime":5658.64,"endTime":5665.399,"body":"guilty man had been acquitted but"},{"startTime":5658.64,"endTime":5665.399,"body":"eventually they were able to"},{"startTime":5665.439,"endTime":5672.239,"body":"extract from the scene at Rachel Nickell's"},{"startTime":5665.439,"endTime":5672.239,"body":"murder some mitochondrial"},{"startTime":5672.239,"endTime":5676.8,"body":"DNA which was a new development"},{"startTime":5672.239,"endTime":5676.8,"body":"in forensic science."},{"startTime":5677.039,"endTime":5682.52,"body":"It wasn't available at the time of"},{"startTime":5677.039,"endTime":5682.52,"body":"Colin Stagg's trial and that"},{"startTime":5682.52,"endTime":5687.52,"body":"revealed a DNA profile that matched"},{"startTime":5682.52,"endTime":5687.52,"body":"exactly Robert Napper's."},{"startTime":5687.92,"endTime":5689.399,"body":"This is some time later now?"},{"startTime":5689.399,"endTime":5690.84,"body":"This is some time years later."},{"startTime":5690.84,"endTime":5692.8,"body":"After DNA has developed a bit."},{"startTime":5692.8,"endTime":5693.039,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":5693.439,"endTime":5696.92,"body":"You didn't I don't think at the time"},{"startTime":5693.439,"endTime":5696.92,"body":"when you had dealt with the"},{"startTime":5696.92,"endTime":5699.92,"body":"Robert Napper case you didn't talk"},{"startTime":5699.92,"endTime":5702.92,"body":"about your suspicions with the police."},{"startTime":5702.92,"endTime":5704.52,"body":"Did you feel that's because they weren't"},{"startTime":5704.52,"endTime":5707.119,"body":"interested they weren't going"},{"startTime":5704.52,"endTime":5707.119,"body":"to be bothered with it?"},{"startTime":5707.119,"endTime":5710.039,"body":"Well I didn't think it was proper for me"},{"startTime":5710.039,"endTime":5713.399,"body":"to as it were to alert the"},{"startTime":5710.039,"endTime":5713.399,"body":"police to this."},{"startTime":5714.56,"endTime":5718.399,"body":"What was obvious was that Robert Napper's"},{"startTime":5714.56,"endTime":5718.399,"body":"was going to be detained in"},{"startTime":5718.399,"endTime":5719.84,"body":"Broadmoor for the rest of his life."},{"startTime":5719.84,"endTime":5722.72,"body":"There was no danger to any other person."},{"startTime":5723.6,"endTime":5731.159,"body":"Had it been a position whereby he was"},{"startTime":5723.6,"endTime":5731.159,"body":"at large then I think I would"},{"startTime":5731.159,"endTime":5735.88,"body":"certainly have alerted the police to"},{"startTime":5731.159,"endTime":5735.88,"body":"the connection even though he"},{"startTime":5735.88,"endTime":5738.279,"body":"was my client because I think there's an"},{"startTime":5738.279,"endTime":5743.72,"body":"overriding duty on everybody"},{"startTime":5738.279,"endTime":5743.72,"body":"to prevent crime."},{"startTime":5743.72,"endTime":5746.96,"body":"I mean one couldn't possibly imagine"},{"startTime":5743.72,"endTime":5746.96,"body":"if I'd have kept quiet and"},{"startTime":5746.96,"endTime":5748.279,"body":"another person had been murdered."},{"startTime":5748.96,"endTime":5750.279,"body":"I could never have lived with it."},{"startTime":5751.399,"endTime":5753.159,"body":"You did express your feelings to your"},{"startTime":5753.159,"endTime":5755.68,"body":"clerk so it's quite clear"},{"startTime":5753.159,"endTime":5755.68,"body":"that you had that."},{"startTime":5755.68,"endTime":5758.92,"body":"Yes well I instinct that it"},{"startTime":5755.68,"endTime":5758.92,"body":"was him or suspicion."},{"startTime":5759.56,"endTime":5762.279,"body":"Yes I would a strong suspicion I mean"},{"startTime":5762.279,"endTime":5764.96,"body":"there was no evidence then"},{"startTime":5762.279,"endTime":5764.96,"body":"that he'd done it."},{"startTime":5764.96,"endTime":5766.96,"body":"Say that the similarities"},{"startTime":5764.96,"endTime":5766.96,"body":"between the cases"},{"startTime":5766.96,"endTime":5770.279,"body":"were so great and the circumstances"},{"startTime":5766.96,"endTime":5770.279,"body":"so rare."},{"startTime":5770.96,"endTime":5775.199,"body":"I just thought it highly improbable"},{"startTime":5770.96,"endTime":5775.199,"body":"that there were two people in"},{"startTime":5775.199,"endTime":5780.079,"body":"London at around the same time murdering"},{"startTime":5775.199,"endTime":5780.079,"body":"mothers in the presence of"},{"startTime":5780.079,"endTime":5782.84,"body":"their children with a savage"},{"startTime":5782.84,"endTime":5786.8,"body":"brutality either on or next to a common."},{"startTime":5787.6,"endTime":5791.439,"body":"So the the DNA skills and techniques"},{"startTime":5787.6,"endTime":5791.439,"body":"developed but it was some"},{"startTime":5791.439,"endTime":5793.72,"body":"years as you say some years later. First"},{"startTime":5793.72,"endTime":5796.479,"body":"there was a development linking"},{"startTime":5793.72,"endTime":5796.479,"body":"Robert Napper"},{"startTime":5796.8,"endTime":5796.92,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":5796.92,"endTime":5798.52,"body":"But it wasn't sufficient was it?"},{"startTime":5798.72,"endTime":5803.88,"body":"Well I wasn't instructed in that case"},{"startTime":5798.72,"endTime":5803.88,"body":"but ultimately there was a"},{"startTime":5803.88,"endTime":5809.399,"body":"full DNA profile as I understand it"},{"startTime":5803.88,"endTime":5809.399,"body":"that identified Napper as the"},{"startTime":5809.8,"endTime":5814.039,"body":"killer of Rachel Nickell and he of course"},{"startTime":5809.8,"endTime":5814.039,"body":"pleaded guilty to that."},{"startTime":5814.399,"endTime":5816.6,"body":"You weren't able of course to act for"},{"startTime":5816.6,"endTime":5819.0,"body":"him in that case can you"},{"startTime":5816.6,"endTime":5819.0,"body":"just explain why?"},{"startTime":5819.0,"endTime":5823.399,"body":"Well I couldn't act for him because"},{"startTime":5819.0,"endTime":5823.399,"body":"I'd acted for Colin Stagg in"},{"startTime":5823.399,"endTime":5827.6,"body":"the original trial and I think that"},{"startTime":5823.399,"endTime":5827.6,"body":"would have created a conflict."},{"startTime":5828.0,"endTime":5832.119,"body":"So he he finally did admit to it and"},{"startTime":5828.0,"endTime":5832.119,"body":"and at least then for the sake"},{"startTime":5832.119,"endTime":5835.439,"body":"of the family they knew then"},{"startTime":5832.119,"endTime":5835.439,"body":"who the killer was."},{"startTime":5835.96,"endTime":5838.039,"body":"Yes and the case could be closed."},{"startTime":5838.56,"endTime":5839.52,"body":"And the case was closed."},{"startTime":5839.52,"endTime":5842.72,"body":"Yeah the result for him was really"},{"startTime":5839.52,"endTime":5842.72,"body":"no different he went back to"},{"startTime":5842.72,"endTime":5844.96,"body":"Broadmoor where he was going"},{"startTime":5842.72,"endTime":5844.96,"body":"to stay anyway."},{"startTime":5846.159,"endTime":5850.0,"body":"Looking back on this case which was such"},{"startTime":5846.159,"endTime":5850.0,"body":"a high profile case and so"},{"startTime":5850.0,"endTime":5854.239,"body":"horrific both aspects of it really both"},{"startTime":5850.0,"endTime":5854.239,"body":"the murder of Rachel Nickell"},{"startTime":5854.239,"endTime":5858.0,"body":"and then the two -of the Bissett,"},{"startTime":5854.239,"endTime":5858.0,"body":"both murders."},{"startTime":5859.0,"endTime":5862.079,"body":"What's your abiding memory"},{"startTime":5859.0,"endTime":5862.079,"body":"of those cases?"},{"startTime":5863.479,"endTime":5870.359,"body":"I think the abiding memory really is"},{"startTime":5863.479,"endTime":5870.359,"body":"the undercover operation by"},{"startTime":5870.359,"endTime":5872.079,"body":"the police involving Lizzie James."},{"startTime":5872.279,"endTime":5881.079,"body":"It was just such an extraordinary error"},{"startTime":5872.279,"endTime":5881.079,"body":"on their part that to this"},{"startTime":5881.079,"endTime":5883.64,"body":"day I have difficulty really coming"},{"startTime":5881.079,"endTime":5883.64,"body":"to terms with who on earth"},{"startTime":5883.64,"endTime":5886.0,"body":"thought that was a good idea"},{"startTime":5883.64,"endTime":5886.0,"body":"and would ever"},{"startTime":5886.0,"endTime":5888.8,"body":"result in admissible evidence"},{"startTime":5886.0,"endTime":5888.8,"body":"in a court of law."},{"startTime":5890.239,"endTime":5891.76,"body":"Have there been any undercover"},{"startTime":5891.88,"endTime":5895.359,"body":"operations in recent years"},{"startTime":5891.88,"endTime":5895.359,"body":"that we know of?"},{"startTime":5895.88,"endTime":5899.0,"body":"Well they're of course one of the secrets"},{"startTime":5895.88,"endTime":5899.0,"body":"of undercover operations"},{"startTime":5899.0,"endTime":5903.0,"body":"that you don't know about them but"},{"startTime":5899.0,"endTime":5903.0,"body":"there is of course an inquiry"},{"startTime":5903.0,"endTime":5910.359,"body":"going on about undercover police"},{"startTime":5903.0,"endTime":5910.359,"body":"operations involving police"},{"startTime":5910.359,"endTime":5912.359,"body":"officers effectively infiltrating"},{"startTime":5912.359,"endTime":5917.88,"body":"themselves into groups of people"},{"startTime":5912.359,"endTime":5917.88,"body":"who were engaged in."},{"startTime":5918.319,"endTime":5920.119,"body":"They were activists weren't they?"},{"startTime":5920.56,"endTime":5924.56,"body":"Yes it was an unbelievable tactic and"},{"startTime":5920.56,"endTime":5924.56,"body":"hopefully do you think police"},{"startTime":5924.56,"endTime":5926.119,"body":"behaviour has changed since then?"},{"startTime":5926.84,"endTime":5932.079,"body":"Yes I mean it was a one-off they'd"},{"startTime":5926.84,"endTime":5932.079,"body":"never done that sort of thing"},{"startTime":5932.079,"endTime":5935.079,"body":"before they'd never done it since so"},{"startTime":5932.079,"endTime":5935.079,"body":"there wasn't so much a change"},{"startTime":5935.079,"endTime":5939.479,"body":"it was an aberration which has"},{"startTime":5935.079,"endTime":5939.479,"body":"not been repeated."},{"startTime":5940.399,"endTime":5942.119,"body":"Have you heard from Colin Stagg since?"},{"startTime":5942.88,"endTime":5946.199,"body":"No the last I heard he was still living"},{"startTime":5942.88,"endTime":5946.199,"body":"in the same flat he was"},{"startTime":5946.199,"endTime":5953.64,"body":"living in before but whether he's moved"},{"startTime":5946.199,"endTime":5953.64,"body":"on with the large sums of"},{"startTime":5953.64,"endTime":5955.439,"body":"money he's been awarded I don't know."},{"startTime":5956.119,"endTime":5960.72,"body":"Do you see any other changes in terms"},{"startTime":5956.119,"endTime":5960.72,"body":"of either police behaviour or"},{"startTime":5960.72,"endTime":5962.72,"body":"for the safety of women really"},{"startTime":5962.72,"endTime":5965.119,"body":"walking in areas such as"},{"startTime":5962.72,"endTime":5965.119,"body":"Wimbledon Common?"},{"startTime":5966.319,"endTime":5971.68,"body":"Well I don't think anybody is able to"},{"startTime":5973.399,"endTime":5979.0,"body":"provide greater safety for women or men"},{"startTime":5973.399,"endTime":5979.0,"body":"for that matter who are out"},{"startTime":5979.0,"endTime":5984.439,"body":"walking in public as long as we have"},{"startTime":5979.0,"endTime":5984.439,"body":"a free country people are able"},{"startTime":5984.439,"endTime":5989.119,"body":"to assess danger for themselves and"},{"startTime":5984.439,"endTime":5989.119,"body":"if you're walking in broad"},{"startTime":5989.119,"endTime":5992.84,"body":"daylight in a London park you'd thought"},{"startTime":5989.119,"endTime":5992.84,"body":"you were pretty safe."},{"startTime":5993.76,"endTime":6000.279,"body":"The reality is that there are always"},{"startTime":5993.76,"endTime":6000.279,"body":"going to be the odd person who"},{"startTime":6000.279,"endTime":6009.479,"body":"probably because of mental illness will"},{"startTime":6000.279,"endTime":6009.479,"body":"attack strangers and it's"},{"startTime":6009.479,"endTime":6015.239,"body":"difficult to know how you can ever"},{"startTime":6009.479,"endTime":6015.239,"body":"prevent that one would hope that"},{"startTime":6015.239,"endTime":6022.0,"body":"they would be picked up by the doctors"},{"startTime":6015.239,"endTime":6022.0,"body":"at some point in their"},{"startTime":6022.0,"endTime":6027.439,"body":"childhood or perhaps in young adulthood"},{"startTime":6022.0,"endTime":6027.439,"body":"who could identify to get"},{"startTime":6027.439,"endTime":6030.159,"body":"them properly treated but one suspects"},{"startTime":6030.159,"endTime":6032.8,"body":"that's not going to be very"},{"startTime":6030.159,"endTime":6032.8,"body":"easy these days."},{"startTime":6033.52,"endTime":6037.359,"body":"I mean you've got to think that Wimbledon"},{"startTime":6033.52,"endTime":6037.359,"body":"Common is a huge area and"},{"startTime":6037.359,"endTime":6041.64,"body":"probably every year at a rough guess"},{"startTime":6037.359,"endTime":6041.64,"body":"perhaps half a million people"},{"startTime":6041.64,"endTime":6046.359,"body":"walk on it and in the 30 years since"},{"startTime":6041.64,"endTime":6046.359,"body":"Rachel Nickell was killed"},{"startTime":6046.359,"endTime":6052.92,"body":"there's only been one case of somebody"},{"startTime":6046.359,"endTime":6052.92,"body":"being attacked so it's"},{"startTime":6052.92,"endTime":6056.439,"body":"probably safer than crossing"},{"startTime":6052.92,"endTime":6056.439,"body":"the road outside."},{"startTime":6057.72,"endTime":6061.96,"body":"Finally in terms of miscarriages of"},{"startTime":6057.72,"endTime":6061.96,"body":"justice and trying to prevent"},{"startTime":6061.96,"endTime":6069.119,"body":"them do police use profiling in"},{"startTime":6061.96,"endTime":6069.119,"body":"the same way psychological"},{"startTime":6069.119,"endTime":6071.359,"body":"profiling and in the way that they did?"},{"startTime":6071.92,"endTime":6077.72,"body":"I don't think they use it at all now"},{"startTime":6071.92,"endTime":6077.72,"body":"as potential evidence it does"},{"startTime":6077.72,"endTime":6083.079,"body":"perhaps have a role in identifying"},{"startTime":6077.72,"endTime":6083.079,"body":"the sort of person who might"},{"startTime":6083.079,"endTime":6087.6,"body":"have committed a crime but to suggest"},{"startTime":6083.079,"endTime":6087.6,"body":"it could become evidence"},{"startTime":6087.6,"endTime":6091.8,"body":"before a jury I don't think anybody"},{"startTime":6087.6,"endTime":6091.8,"body":"believes that would happen."},{"startTime":6094.479,"endTime":6097.72,"body":"Robert Napper is currently detained"},{"startTime":6097.72,"endTime":6099.92,"body":"and definitely at Broadmoor Hospital."},{"startTime":6101.359,"endTime":6103.88,"body":"Colin Stagg now lives in Farnborough with his dog."},{"startTime":6103.88,"endTime":6108.6,"body":"Bill Clegg KC retired in 2019."},{"startTime":6109.84,"endTime":6115.439,"body":"This episode is dedicated to the"},{"startTime":6109.84,"endTime":6115.439,"body":"memory of Rachel Nickell."},{"startTime":6124.52,"endTime":6127.479,"body":"This podcast was brought to you"},{"startTime":6124.52,"endTime":6127.479,"body":"by the University of Law."},{"startTime":6128.199,"endTime":6131.319,"body":"Subscribe now to make sure you don't"},{"startTime":6128.199,"endTime":6131.319,"body":"miss the next episode."}]}