{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":3600.519,"endTime":3602.559,"body":"I'd always said to Tony, look,"},{"startTime":3602.559,"endTime":3604.36,"body":"this is a very, very long shot."},{"startTime":3604.36,"endTime":3605.96,"body":"He had always made it very clear that"},{"startTime":3605.96,"endTime":3608.28,"body":"if he was unsuccessful, then he would"},{"startTime":3608.28,"endTime":3610.0,"body":"take his own life in the only way that he"},{"startTime":3610.0,"endTime":3611.0,"body":"could, which was to"},{"startTime":3611.0,"endTime":3612.039,"body":"starve himself to death."},{"startTime":3616.239,"endTime":3617.679,"body":"I can't imagine"},{"startTime":3617.679,"endTime":3619.36,"body":"what it must have been like to be in"},{"startTime":3619.36,"endTime":3621.32,"body":"Tony's situation, but I think it might be"},{"startTime":3621.32,"endTime":3623.039,"body":"right to say that this was perhaps the"},{"startTime":3623.039,"endTime":3624.92,"body":"only thing that was keeping him going at"},{"startTime":3624.92,"endTime":3627.159,"body":"that stage was the prospect of being able"},{"startTime":3627.159,"endTime":3628.599,"body":"to successfully"},{"startTime":3628.599,"endTime":3630.639,"body":"establish that the law was wrong."},{"startTime":3634.719,"endTime":3637.0,"body":"I don't see the law changing through"},{"startTime":3637.0,"endTime":3638.48,"body":"litigation any time soon."},{"startTime":3638.48,"endTime":3640.28,"body":"I don't see there being"},{"startTime":3640.28,"endTime":3642.639,"body":"any solutions which are perfect."},{"startTime":3642.719,"endTime":3645.679,"body":"The current law does leave people like"},{"startTime":3645.679,"endTime":3648.84,"body":"Tony in an invidious, awful position"},{"startTime":3649.159,"endTime":3651.76,"body":"It was an honour to run those cases,"},{"startTime":3651.76,"endTime":3652.719,"body":"an absolute honour to work"},{"startTime":3652.719,"endTime":3653.199,"body":"with those amazing people."},{"startTime":3653.199,"endTime":3654.559,"body":"But I don't think"},{"startTime":3654.559,"endTime":3655.679,"body":"I'll run that case again."},{"startTime":3656.44,"endTime":3658.96,"body":"You are listening to Inside the Case"},{"startTime":3658.96,"endTime":3661.039,"body":"brought to you by The University of Law."},{"startTime":3665.76,"endTime":3669.079,"body":"The case of Tony Nicklinson is one of the most"},{"startTime":3669.079,"endTime":3670.36,"body":"important right to die"},{"startTime":3670.36,"endTime":3672.599,"body":"cases in recent legal history."},{"startTime":3673.28,"endTime":3676.159,"body":"Tony Nicholson was a British engineer who"},{"startTime":3676.159,"endTime":3680.0,"body":"in 2005 suffered a catastrophic stroke"},{"startTime":3680.48,"endTime":3682.519,"body":"that left him with locked-in syndrome."},{"startTime":3683.159,"endTime":3685.719,"body":"He was mentally fully alert, but almost"},{"startTime":3685.719,"endTime":3689.119,"body":"completely paralyzed, unable to speak and"},{"startTime":3689.119,"endTime":3690.199,"body":"dependent on others"},{"startTime":3690.639,"endTime":3692.039,"body":"for every basic function."},{"startTime":3692.44,"endTime":3693.679,"body":"He described his life"},{"startTime":3693.679,"endTime":3695.559,"body":"as a living nightmare."},{"startTime":3696.239,"endTime":3699.92,"body":"In 2012, seven years later, he went to"},{"startTime":3699.92,"endTime":3702.96,"body":"the high court to seek legal immunity for"},{"startTime":3702.96,"endTime":3704.719,"body":"a doctor who would help him die."},{"startTime":3705.519,"endTime":3708.159,"body":"Under UK law, assisting someone to kill"},{"startTime":3708.159,"endTime":3710.96,"body":"themselves, assisted suicide is illegal."},{"startTime":3711.519,"endTime":3712.92,"body":"His case was dismissed."},{"startTime":3713.48,"endTime":3715.76,"body":"The high court ruled that only parliament"},{"startTime":3716.0,"endTime":3716.92,"body":"could change the law"},{"startTime":3716.92,"endTime":3718.599,"body":"to allow assisted dying."},{"startTime":3719.32,"endTime":3721.84,"body":"Faced with this ruling, Nicholson refused"},{"startTime":3721.84,"endTime":3724.28,"body":"foods, fluids, and medical treatment."},{"startTime":3724.679,"endTime":3726.92,"body":"He developed pneumonia, and just six days"},{"startTime":3726.92,"endTime":3728.719,"body":"after the court ruling, he died."},{"startTime":3730.28,"endTime":3732.4,"body":"His widow Jane took the case onto the"},{"startTime":3732.4,"endTime":3733.36,"body":"Court of Appeal and"},{"startTime":3733.36,"endTime":3734.76,"body":"then to the Supreme Court."},{"startTime":3735.36,"endTime":3737.719,"body":"In a landmark ruling with nine justices"},{"startTime":3738.28,"endTime":3740.44,"body":"sitting for the first time because of the"},{"startTime":3740.44,"endTime":3741.679,"body":"importance of the issue,"},{"startTime":3742.36,"endTime":3744.4,"body":"the highest court in the land ruled"},{"startTime":3744.4,"endTime":3746.44,"body":"that it was for parliament to decide."},{"startTime":3747.119,"endTime":3749.159,"body":"the highest court in the land ruled"},{"startTime":3750.36,"endTime":3752.4,"body":"that it was for parliament to decide."},{"startTime":3753.0,"endTime":3755.36,"body":"More than ten years on, that issue is now"},{"startTime":3755.36,"endTime":3757.559,"body":"before Parliament, where an intense"},{"startTime":3757.559,"endTime":3758.96,"body":"battle rages over"},{"startTime":3758.96,"endTime":3760.199,"body":"whether to change the law."},{"startTime":3760.679,"endTime":3762.199,"body":"The barrister who acted for Tony"},{"startTime":3762.199,"endTime":3764.76,"body":"Nicholson and after his death for his"},{"startTime":3764.76,"endTime":3766.92,"body":"widow is Paul Bowen, K.C."},{"startTime":3767.519,"endTime":3769.92,"body":"Paul Bowen is a leading practitioner in"},{"startTime":3769.92,"endTime":3771.599,"body":"public and human rights law."},{"startTime":3771.92,"endTime":3775.079,"body":"He has appeared over a 35-year career in"},{"startTime":3775.079,"endTime":3779.0,"body":"24 cases in the UK's highest courts and"},{"startTime":3779.199,"endTime":3781.88,"body":"Unusually, he started life as a city"},{"startTime":3781.88,"endTime":3786.0,"body":"solicitor moving to the bar in 1993 where"},{"startTime":3786.0,"endTime":3788.559,"body":"he built a human rights practice, mainly"},{"startTime":3788.559,"endTime":3791.079,"body":"at Doughty Street Chambers."},{"startTime":3791.079,"endTime":3793.28,"body":"He specialised in human rights cases for"},{"startTime":3793.28,"endTime":3795.36,"body":"vulnerable and marginalised clients,"},{"startTime":3795.44,"endTime":3797.76,"body":"including mental patients, prisoners,"},{"startTime":3797.76,"endTime":3799.8,"body":"disabled people, bereaved"},{"startTime":3799.8,"endTime":3801.88,"body":"families and terrorist suspects."},{"startTime":3802.039,"endTime":3804.92,"body":"Since Paul's move to Crick Court ten years ago,"},{"startTime":3804.92,"endTime":3807.519,"body":"his public law practice has extended and"},{"startTime":3807.519,"endTime":3809.639,"body":"now includes regulatory and financial"},{"startTime":3809.639,"endTime":3812.079,"body":"services work, although he remains at"},{"startTime":3812.079,"endTime":3813.84,"body":"heart a public law and"},{"startTime":3813.84,"endTime":3815.28,"body":"human rights specialist."},{"startTime":3815.28,"endTime":3817.36,"body":"He also sits as a deputy judge in the"},{"startTime":3817.36,"endTime":3819.119,"body":"High Court's administrative court."},{"startTime":3820.639,"endTime":3823.519,"body":"I began by asking Paul Bowen how he came"},{"startTime":3823.519,"endTime":3825.88,"body":"to be instructed for Tony Nicklinson."},{"startTime":3828.679,"endTime":3829.679,"body":"I was instructed by"},{"startTime":3829.679,"endTime":3832.0,"body":"a brilliant solicitor who,"},{"startTime":3832.519,"endTime":3835.679,"body":"Saimo Chahal, who I had worked with for"},{"startTime":3835.679,"endTime":3837.599,"body":"several years on other cases."},{"startTime":3837.599,"endTime":3838.4,"body":"In fact, we did the"},{"startTime":3838.4,"endTime":3839.96,"body":"Debbie Purdy case together."},{"startTime":3840.92,"endTime":3844.119,"body":"So that had been a big right to die case."},{"startTime":3844.639,"endTime":3845.32,"body":"Just to remind us, how"},{"startTime":3845.32,"endTime":3846.4,"body":"much earlier was that?"},{"startTime":3846.4,"endTime":3847.239,"body":"Have that been quite the..."},{"startTime":3847.239,"endTime":3849.079,"body":"So that was 2009, 2010."},{"startTime":3851.079,"endTime":3853.8,"body":"And that had been, in fact, was the last"},{"startTime":3853.8,"endTime":3854.84,"body":"case in the House of Lords."},{"startTime":3854.88,"endTime":3856.44,"body":"That was the last case"},{"startTime":3856.44,"endTime":3857.48,"body":"they gave their judgment."},{"startTime":3857.719,"endTime":3859.48,"body":"Before the Supreme Court was set up."},{"startTime":3859.48,"endTime":3860.519,"body":"Before they transferred over to the Supreme Court."},{"startTime":3862.119,"endTime":3863.599,"body":"And Debbie Purdy had"},{"startTime":3863.599,"endTime":3868.159,"body":"multiple sclerosis in late stages."},{"startTime":3868.679,"endTime":3870.92,"body":"She wanted to be able to know that she"},{"startTime":3870.92,"endTime":3872.88,"body":"could travel to Switzerland"},{"startTime":3872.88,"endTime":3877.8,"body":"for an assisted death and wanted to know"},{"startTime":3877.8,"endTime":3879.76,"body":"if her husband, Omar,"},{"startTime":3879.92,"endTime":3882.719,"body":"would be prosecuted if"},{"startTime":3882.719,"endTime":3884.4,"body":"he were to assist her."},{"startTime":3885.4,"endTime":3889.039,"body":"And the CPS, we knew, was not prosecuting"},{"startTime":3889.039,"endTime":3890.159,"body":"people in these circumstances"},{"startTime":3890.159,"endTime":3893.599,"body":"but didn't have any policy published"},{"startTime":3893.599,"endTime":3894.8,"body":"explaining what factors"},{"startTime":3894.8,"endTime":3895.88,"body":"they took into account in"},{"startTime":3895.88,"endTime":3896.92,"body":"these sort of circumstances."},{"startTime":3897.519,"endTime":3899.4,"body":"It was all discretionary, was it?"},{"startTime":3899.4,"endTime":3900.36,"body":"Yeah, it was all..."},{"startTime":3900.76,"endTime":3901.88,"body":"As far as the outsider was concerned."},{"startTime":3901.88,"endTime":3903.079,"body":"As far as it... You didn't know."},{"startTime":3904.199,"endTime":3905.88,"body":"It might be one prosecutor might make one"},{"startTime":3905.88,"endTime":3906.84,"body":"decision, another might make another."},{"startTime":3906.88,"endTime":3911.199,"body":"And so what we persuaded eventually, the"},{"startTime":3911.199,"endTime":3912.76,"body":"House of Lords to do,"},{"startTime":3912.88,"endTime":3916.92,"body":"was to find that the absence of a policy"},{"startTime":3916.92,"endTime":3918.36,"body":"was a breach of Article eight"},{"startTime":3918.36,"endTime":3921.239,"body":"of the European Convention on Human"},{"startTime":3921.239,"endTime":3922.8,"body":"Rights, the right to private life."},{"startTime":3923.239,"endTime":3925.079,"body":"So that was a big stepping stone."},{"startTime":3925.119,"endTime":3926.92,"body":"Yes, I mean, they did then issue some"},{"startTime":3926.92,"endTime":3927.639,"body":"guidelines, didn't they?"},{"startTime":3927.639,"endTime":3928.119,"body":"They did, yes."},{"startTime":3928.119,"endTime":3929.119,"body":"The DPP, that is."},{"startTime":3929.119,"endTime":3930.639,"body":"They did. And of course, what that meant"},{"startTime":3930.639,"endTime":3932.84,"body":"is that there was a partial"},{"startTime":3932.88,"endTime":3934.239,"body":"legalisation of assisted"},{"startTime":3934.239,"endTime":3935.88,"body":"dying in those circumstances."},{"startTime":3936.92,"endTime":3938.4,"body":"I mean, people had been travelling to"},{"startTime":3938.4,"endTime":3939.199,"body":"Switzerland for years"},{"startTime":3939.88,"endTime":3941.599,"body":"and there'd been no prosecutions."},{"startTime":3943.0,"endTime":3944.8,"body":"And so people knew that there was this"},{"startTime":3944.8,"endTime":3947.88,"body":"relaxation that had happened."},{"startTime":3948.4,"endTime":3948.84,"body":"Nonetheless, it was a"},{"startTime":3948.84,"endTime":3949.88,"body":"risk, wasn't it, for people?"},{"startTime":3949.88,"endTime":3950.679,"body":"But of course it was a risk."},{"startTime":3951.079,"endTime":3953.32,"body":"And of course the real problem, and this"},{"startTime":3953.32,"endTime":3954.96,"body":"was the starting point,"},{"startTime":3954.96,"endTime":3956.599,"body":"I suppose, for Tony's case, is that if"},{"startTime":3956.599,"endTime":3958.199,"body":"you were as disabled as Tony,"},{"startTime":3958.92,"endTime":3959.639,"body":"travelling to"},{"startTime":3959.639,"endTime":3960.84,"body":"Switzerland was not an option."},{"startTime":3960.92,"endTime":3964.84,"body":"So that case obviously put you in the"},{"startTime":3964.84,"endTime":3966.199,"body":"media and other spotlight."},{"startTime":3966.8,"endTime":3967.8,"body":"Yes, so Saimo and I"},{"startTime":3967.8,"endTime":3968.96,"body":"did that case together."},{"startTime":3969.599,"endTime":3972.599,"body":"And then when she was approached by Tony"},{"startTime":3972.599,"endTime":3973.48,"body":"Nicklinson's family,"},{"startTime":3974.599,"endTime":3975.639,"body":"she turned to me."},{"startTime":3976.679,"endTime":3977.76,"body":"So did you then both"},{"startTime":3977.76,"endTime":3979.32,"body":"travel down to see him?"},{"startTime":3979.559,"endTime":3980.719,"body":"What happened then?"},{"startTime":3980.719,"endTime":3982.119,"body":"Yes, we did."},{"startTime":3982.599,"endTime":3984.44,"body":"I think I went separately from Saimo."},{"startTime":3984.44,"endTime":3986.119,"body":"I think she had already been to see him."},{"startTime":3986.119,"endTime":3987.84,"body":"I remember travelling down"},{"startTime":3987.84,"endTime":3989.48,"body":"by train to Melksham near Bath"},{"startTime":3990.0,"endTime":3993.84,"body":"and spending the afternoon with Tony and"},{"startTime":3993.84,"endTime":3996.48,"body":"Jane, his wife and their children,"},{"startTime":3996.84,"endTime":3998.039,"body":"their two daughters, Lauren and Beth,"},{"startTime":3999.559,"endTime":4002.159,"body":"and mostly talking to them"},{"startTime":4002.159,"endTime":4004.679,"body":"about their experiences of it."},{"startTime":4004.88,"endTime":4007.639,"body":"But Tony was able to communicate in very"},{"startTime":4007.639,"endTime":4010.519,"body":"simple terms, very slowly."},{"startTime":4010.88,"endTime":4012.96,"body":"Just describe his condition at that time."},{"startTime":4012.96,"endTime":4014.0,"body":"It had been a while, hadn't"},{"startTime":4014.0,"endTime":4015.32,"body":"it, since he had a stroke?"},{"startTime":4015.88,"endTime":4018.76,"body":"He had what's called locked-in syndrome,"},{"startTime":4018.76,"endTime":4020.84,"body":"so essentially he could"},{"startTime":4020.84,"endTime":4023.119,"body":"only communicate by blinking."},{"startTime":4024.96,"endTime":4026.84,"body":"And so he had..."},{"startTime":4027.679,"endTime":4028.679,"body":"He was quite a young man,"},{"startTime":4028.679,"endTime":4029.559,"body":"wasn't he, at this time?"},{"startTime":4030.0,"endTime":4030.88,"body":"He was 50s."},{"startTime":4030.92,"endTime":4032.519,"body":"Yes, 44, I gather."},{"startTime":4032.92,"endTime":4033.92,"body":"He'd been in that situation"},{"startTime":4033.92,"endTime":4036.0,"body":"for several years by then."},{"startTime":4036.88,"endTime":4041.32,"body":"And had gradually but very firmly reached"},{"startTime":4041.32,"endTime":4045.599,"body":"the conclusion that it was unbearable"},{"startTime":4045.88,"endTime":4048.679,"body":"to live in that state."},{"startTime":4049.28,"endTime":4050.88,"body":"And how did you find him?"},{"startTime":4051.119,"endTime":4053.159,"body":"I mean, he did communicate a little bit,"},{"startTime":4053.159,"endTime":4055.079,"body":"as you say, with mechanical means."},{"startTime":4055.32,"endTime":4056.4,"body":"What came across..."},{"startTime":4056.4,"endTime":4058.48,"body":"And this is, in fairness, more from"},{"startTime":4058.48,"endTime":4059.88,"body":"talking to his family,"},{"startTime":4060.199,"endTime":4061.4,"body":"what kind of man he was."},{"startTime":4061.88,"endTime":4064.92,"body":"I mean, it's very difficult to form my"},{"startTime":4064.92,"endTime":4068.0,"body":"own view in that limited period,"},{"startTime":4068.0,"endTime":4069.199,"body":"but I felt..."},{"startTime":4070.039,"endTime":4073.96,"body":"I did feel from him a sense of resolve"},{"startTime":4073.96,"endTime":4077.4,"body":"that his family talked to as well."},{"startTime":4077.4,"endTime":4082.28,"body":"He'd been a very physical, very big rugby"},{"startTime":4082.28,"endTime":4085.0,"body":"fan, like skydiving, very active man."},{"startTime":4085.4,"endTime":4086.4,"body":"He was an engineer,"},{"startTime":4086.4,"endTime":4087.4,"body":"wasn't he? A civil engineer."},{"startTime":4088.039,"endTime":4091.519,"body":"And he had lived a great life."},{"startTime":4091.719,"endTime":4095.0,"body":"He saw his condition as having"},{"startTime":4095.0,"endTime":4098.239,"body":"taken that life away from him."},{"startTime":4100.119,"endTime":4103.039,"body":"And had decided that that"},{"startTime":4103.039,"endTime":4105.239,"body":"was just not what he wanted."},{"startTime":4105.239,"endTime":4106.439,"body":"He didn't want to carry on."},{"startTime":4106.84,"endTime":4109.56,"body":"Was he, as far as you could tell and as"},{"startTime":4109.56,"endTime":4110.6,"body":"far as the family said, was he"},{"startTime":4110.6,"endTime":4111.84,"body":"deteriorating all the while?"},{"startTime":4111.88,"endTime":4114.479,"body":"Well, I think it's right to say that his"},{"startTime":4114.479,"endTime":4115.84,"body":"condition would eventually have..."},{"startTime":4118.0,"endTime":4119.88,"body":"He would have died eventually and younger"},{"startTime":4119.88,"endTime":4120.84,"body":"than he would have done had"},{"startTime":4120.84,"endTime":4122.399,"body":"he not had that condition."},{"startTime":4123.239,"endTime":4124.84,"body":"And in the end, what he"},{"startTime":4124.84,"endTime":4127.0,"body":"died from was pneumonia."},{"startTime":4130.0,"endTime":4133.039,"body":"But that was after he had, in fact,"},{"startTime":4134.399,"endTime":4135.96,"body":"refused food and nutrition."},{"startTime":4136.399,"endTime":4137.439,"body":"On this first visit,"},{"startTime":4137.84,"endTime":4139.76,"body":"how did it affect you?"},{"startTime":4139.88,"endTime":4142.88,"body":"It must have been quite a thing."},{"startTime":4143.439,"endTime":4144.119,"body":"Of course it was."},{"startTime":4144.88,"endTime":4148.76,"body":"I recognised the enormity of"},{"startTime":4148.76,"endTime":4149.72,"body":"what we were trying to achieve."},{"startTime":4149.96,"endTime":4151.479,"body":"What we had achieved in Debbie Purdy's"},{"startTime":4151.479,"endTime":4154.0,"body":"case had been a small carve out."},{"startTime":4154.279,"endTime":4156.479,"body":"And what we were trying to do here was a"},{"startTime":4156.479,"endTime":4159.72,"body":"full frontal assault on both the law of"},{"startTime":4159.72,"endTime":4161.199,"body":"murder and on the law"},{"startTime":4161.199,"endTime":4162.199,"body":"of assisted suicide."},{"startTime":4162.199,"endTime":4163.439,"body":"So we didn't underestimate the"},{"startTime":4163.439,"endTime":4164.479,"body":"significance of what it was."},{"startTime":4164.88,"endTime":4167.199,"body":"It was a big challenge and it hadn't been"},{"startTime":4167.199,"endTime":4168.399,"body":"done before and nothing like"},{"startTime":4168.399,"endTime":4169.88,"body":"that had been done, had it?"},{"startTime":4170.199,"endTime":4170.399,"body":"Correct."},{"startTime":4171.0,"endTime":4172.92,"body":"So did the family with the family"},{"startTime":4172.92,"endTime":4174.199,"body":"realistic about prospects?"},{"startTime":4174.56,"endTime":4176.359,"body":"Were you realistic about prospects?"},{"startTime":4176.56,"endTime":4177.56,"body":"Of course I was. I had"},{"startTime":4177.56,"endTime":4179.119,"body":"to be honest with them."},{"startTime":4179.88,"endTime":4181.84,"body":"And I had to be honest with the legal aid"},{"startTime":4181.84,"endTime":4184.6,"body":"agency and I had to make very clear that"},{"startTime":4184.6,"endTime":4187.319,"body":"these were arguments that were novel and"},{"startTime":4187.319,"endTime":4189.84,"body":"bold, as a judge might put it."},{"startTime":4189.88,"endTime":4193.319,"body":"So you came away and you must have felt,"},{"startTime":4193.76,"endTime":4196.479,"body":"it's obviously a trite to say almost, you"},{"startTime":4196.479,"endTime":4196.96,"body":"must have felt"},{"startTime":4196.96,"endTime":4198.199,"body":"desperately sorry for the man."},{"startTime":4199.039,"endTime":4200.56,"body":"What were your own personal feelings"},{"startTime":4200.56,"endTime":4202.479,"body":"about the case and whether you thought it"},{"startTime":4202.479,"endTime":4203.64,"body":"was right to bring the challenge?"},{"startTime":4203.96,"endTime":4205.64,"body":"Yes. I mean that's an"},{"startTime":4205.64,"endTime":4206.56,"body":"interesting question."},{"startTime":4207.64,"endTime":4211.56,"body":"I've always been very clear about all"},{"startTime":4211.56,"endTime":4212.76,"body":"these cases that I've done that I brought"},{"startTime":4212.76,"endTime":4213.479,"body":"them as a barrister"},{"startTime":4213.479,"endTime":4214.6,"body":"and not as a campaigner."},{"startTime":4214.88,"endTime":4217.8,"body":"And that remains my position."},{"startTime":4219.84,"endTime":4224.52,"body":"And having said that, I had my own family"},{"startTime":4224.52,"endTime":4230.079,"body":"experience which had for me left me with"},{"startTime":4230.079,"endTime":4234.84,"body":"a conviction that people in dire"},{"startTime":4234.84,"endTime":4237.92,"body":"emergency need to be able to turn to"},{"startTime":4237.92,"endTime":4239.72,"body":"those that they love and to ask them to"},{"startTime":4239.72,"endTime":4241.279,"body":"help bring about the end."},{"startTime":4241.88,"endTime":4245.119,"body":"So you were sympathetic to the case he"},{"startTime":4245.119,"endTime":4246.199,"body":"was making or you were"},{"startTime":4246.199,"endTime":4247.079,"body":"going to make on his part?"},{"startTime":4247.079,"endTime":4250.64,"body":"Yes. I mean I certainly had no moral or"},{"startTime":4250.64,"endTime":4254.399,"body":"religious convictions that would have"},{"startTime":4254.399,"endTime":4256.199,"body":"made that difficult. I saw it"},{"startTime":4256.199,"endTime":4257.76,"body":"purely as a human rights case."},{"startTime":4258.199,"endTime":4260.119,"body":"Although out of interest, I mean even if"},{"startTime":4260.119,"endTime":4261.0,"body":"you had had, would you"},{"startTime":4261.0,"endTime":4261.84,"body":"still have taken the case?"},{"startTime":4262.88,"endTime":4265.479,"body":"Well, I'd like to think I would have"},{"startTime":4265.479,"endTime":4267.84,"body":"done. That's a difficult counterfactual,"},{"startTime":4267.84,"endTime":4272.399,"body":"isn't it? But I hope I would have done."},{"startTime":4272.399,"endTime":4273.76,"body":"Because as you say, you were looking at"},{"startTime":4273.76,"endTime":4275.8,"body":"it as a barrister, not someone"},{"startTime":4275.8,"endTime":4277.199,"body":"promoting a particular cause."},{"startTime":4277.72,"endTime":4277.92,"body":"Correct."},{"startTime":4278.159,"endTime":4280.199,"body":"So you took the case, it came as you say"},{"startTime":4280.199,"endTime":4281.88,"body":"in the High Court, in the"},{"startTime":4281.88,"endTime":4282.84,"body":"Divisional Court, did it?"},{"startTime":4282.88,"endTime":4285.88,"body":"Well, what happened is, I mean ordinarily"},{"startTime":4285.88,"endTime":4290.52,"body":"if one was bringing a challenge to the"},{"startTime":4290.52,"endTime":4292.92,"body":"law, particularly if you're bringing a"},{"startTime":4292.92,"endTime":4294.359,"body":"declaration, seeking a declaration of"},{"startTime":4294.359,"endTime":4296.439,"body":"incompatibility as we were in relation to"},{"startTime":4296.439,"endTime":4298.84,"body":"Section 2 of the Suicide Act, that would"},{"startTime":4298.84,"endTime":4300.279,"body":"be brought by way of judicial review."},{"startTime":4302.239,"endTime":4308.439,"body":"But I'd spent many years acting for"},{"startTime":4308.439,"endTime":4311.479,"body":"applicants in the administrative court"},{"startTime":4311.479,"endTime":4312.88,"body":"doing judicial reviews, human rights, but"},{"startTime":4312.88,"endTime":4314.479,"body":"I also did quite a lot of work in the"},{"startTime":4314.479,"endTime":4317.199,"body":"family division, what later became the"},{"startTime":4317.199,"endTime":4320.68,"body":"Court of Protection, involving cases of"},{"startTime":4320.68,"endTime":4324.239,"body":"difficult medical assistance cases,"},{"startTime":4324.239,"endTime":4325.84,"body":"including withdrawal of treatment cases."},{"startTime":4325.88,"endTime":4332.84,"body":"And I was convinced that if we were to"},{"startTime":4332.84,"endTime":4335.439,"body":"get anywhere with this case, we needed it"},{"startTime":4335.439,"endTime":4337.239,"body":"to be firstly in front of a family judge"},{"startTime":4337.239,"endTime":4342.0,"body":"who was much more comfortable with making"},{"startTime":4342.239,"endTime":4343.88,"body":"life and death decisions."},{"startTime":4345.359,"endTime":4347.359,"body":"More au fait with those kinds of issues?"},{"startTime":4347.399,"endTime":4353.64,"body":"Yes, just more comfortable with them, but"},{"startTime":4353.64,"endTime":4356.56,"body":"also the kind of procedures that we would"},{"startTime":4356.56,"endTime":4358.359,"body":"have in the family court would make it"},{"startTime":4358.359,"endTime":4361.159,"body":"much easier to have evidential hearings"},{"startTime":4361.159,"endTime":4363.239,"body":"than we would if we brought it by way of"},{"startTime":4363.239,"endTime":4364.88,"body":"a straight judicial review claim."},{"startTime":4364.88,"endTime":4367.279,"body":"So you took that quite key decision to"},{"startTime":4367.279,"endTime":4368.359,"body":"lodge it in the family division?"},{"startTime":4368.399,"endTime":4372.72,"body":"Well, we brought it initially as a Part 8"},{"startTime":4372.72,"endTime":4375.359,"body":"claim - a claim seeking a declaration in"},{"startTime":4375.359,"endTime":4377.039,"body":"relation to the meaning of the law,"},{"startTime":4377.279,"endTime":4379.119,"body":"essentially, but we were trying to get"},{"startTime":4379.119,"endTime":4380.359,"body":"it, and we got it in front of a family"},{"startTime":4380.359,"endTime":4383.6,"body":"judge, Mr Justice Charles, who was, as we"},{"startTime":4383.6,"endTime":4385.72,"body":"anticipated, sympathetic, but we slightly"},{"startTime":4385.72,"endTime":4387.6,"body":"got hijacked while we did get it."},{"startTime":4387.8,"endTime":4389.439,"body":"We lost the argument that it should be"},{"startTime":4389.439,"endTime":4390.8,"body":"heard in the family division, and it did"},{"startTime":4390.8,"endTime":4392.239,"body":"then end up in front of a divisional"},{"startTime":4392.239,"endTime":4396.039,"body":"court, sitting effectively in the"},{"startTime":4396.039,"endTime":4396.359,"body":"administrative court."},{"startTime":4397.479,"endTime":4399.439,"body":"So we never got to the point that we'd"},{"startTime":4399.439,"endTime":4401.76,"body":"hoped to, where we could start hearing"},{"startTime":4401.76,"endTime":4405.0,"body":"evidence, and that essentially was the"},{"startTime":4405.0,"endTime":4407.359,"body":"real problem with the case thereafter."},{"startTime":4408.279,"endTime":4410.439,"body":"So it was transferred, what, because they"},{"startTime":4410.439,"endTime":4411.439,"body":"thought it was more suitable?"},{"startTime":4412.0,"endTime":4412.64,"body":"Yes, essentially."},{"startTime":4413.76,"endTime":4414.76,"body":"And who was it transferred"},{"startTime":4414.76,"endTime":4416.279,"body":"before? Who was the judge?"},{"startTime":4416.279,"endTime":4418.76,"body":"So, well, we had a divisional court that"},{"startTime":4418.76,"endTime":4421.76,"body":"was led by the late Lord Toulson, Roger"},{"startTime":4421.76,"endTime":4424.239,"body":"Toulson, who was a brilliant, I mean"},{"startTime":4424.239,"endTime":4426.119,"body":"utterly brilliant lawyer."},{"startTime":4426.72,"endTime":4430.279,"body":"But what I didn't realise until a few"},{"startTime":4430.279,"endTime":4432.399,"body":"days before the hearing was himself a"},{"startTime":4432.399,"endTime":4433.439,"body":"committed Christian."},{"startTime":4434.319,"endTime":4436.68,"body":"And he not only was a committed"},{"startTime":4436.68,"endTime":4439.68,"body":"Christian, he was the chair of a lawyer's"},{"startTime":4439.68,"endTime":4441.76,"body":"Christian group that was associated with"},{"startTime":4441.84,"endTime":4444.239,"body":"that was associated with Care Not"},{"startTime":4444.239,"endTime":4445.399,"body":"Killing, who were one of"},{"startTime":4445.399,"endTime":4447.72,"body":"the interveners in the case."},{"startTime":4448.279,"endTime":4449.479,"body":"Well, was that then suitable"},{"startTime":4449.479,"endTime":4450.72,"body":"for him to sit on the case?"},{"startTime":4450.92,"endTime":4452.6,"body":"Well, we didn't think it was, so we made"},{"startTime":4452.6,"endTime":4454.84,"body":"an application to him to recuse himself,"},{"startTime":4456.159,"endTime":4457.96,"body":"which you can imagine wasn't a very easy"},{"startTime":4457.96,"endTime":4459.6,"body":"application to make."},{"startTime":4459.6,"endTime":4461.239,"body":"No. How did he take that?"},{"startTime":4461.479,"endTime":4463.72,"body":"Well, he was charming about it, but"},{"startTime":4463.72,"endTime":4464.88,"body":"dismissed the application."},{"startTime":4466.359,"endTime":4467.039,"body":"Could you then have"},{"startTime":4467.039,"endTime":4467.52,"body":"challenged that refusal?"},{"startTime":4467.52,"endTime":4469.88,"body":"Well, you know, one of the things that we"},{"startTime":4469.88,"endTime":4472.439,"body":"then thought about when we did end up"},{"startTime":4472.439,"endTime":4473.76,"body":"going to the Supreme Court is whether we"},{"startTime":4473.76,"endTime":4474.88,"body":"should have appealed that."},{"startTime":4476.479,"endTime":4477.279,"body":"But to be honest, we had"},{"startTime":4477.279,"endTime":4479.159,"body":"enough on our plate already."},{"startTime":4479.68,"endTime":4480.52,"body":"So you went ahead"},{"startTime":4480.52,"endTime":4480.92,"body":"with Mr Justice Toulson?"},{"startTime":4480.92,"endTime":4484.96,"body":"So we went ahead and we lost the case on"},{"startTime":4484.96,"endTime":4489.8,"body":"essentially the basis that it simply was"},{"startTime":4489.8,"endTime":4491.88,"body":"not appropriate for the courts to be even"},{"startTime":4491.88,"endTime":4492.88,"body":"adjudicating on the issue."},{"startTime":4493.88,"endTime":4496.079,"body":"Did you think he was unbiased about it"},{"startTime":4496.079,"endTime":4497.64,"body":"and fair in his reason?"},{"startTime":4498.359,"endTime":4501.079,"body":"I wouldn't for a moment suggest that it"},{"startTime":4501.079,"endTime":4501.64,"body":"was anything other"},{"startTime":4501.64,"endTime":4503.039,"body":"than scrupulously fair."},{"startTime":4505.319,"endTime":4506.039,"body":"And the perspective that the final"},{"startTime":4506.039,"endTime":4508.359,"body":"judgment that this was not a matter for"},{"startTime":4508.359,"endTime":4510.199,"body":"the courts but for"},{"startTime":4510.199,"endTime":4513.8,"body":"Parliament was entirely doctrinal."},{"startTime":4513.8,"endTime":4514.039,"body":"I mean, there was"},{"startTime":4514.039,"endTime":4515.399,"body":"nothing unusual about it."},{"startTime":4515.68,"endTime":4515.88,"body":"No."},{"startTime":4516.159,"endTime":4517.439,"body":"What I was asking for was more unusual."},{"startTime":4517.52,"endTime":4519.76,"body":"It was a fundamental position. Who was"},{"startTime":4519.76,"endTime":4520.56,"body":"arguing on the other"},{"startTime":4520.56,"endTime":4521.279,"body":"side to put that case?"},{"startTime":4521.279,"endTime":4523.92,"body":"So at that stage, it was David Perry,"},{"startTime":4524.479,"endTime":4527.88,"body":"King's Counsel now, leading James Strachan."},{"startTime":4529.399,"endTime":4530.6,"body":"And essentially that"},{"startTime":4530.6,"endTime":4532.359,"body":"became the whole question."},{"startTime":4532.92,"endTime":4533.72,"body":"Could the courts even"},{"startTime":4533.72,"endTime":4535.239,"body":"adjudicate on that issue?"},{"startTime":4535.239,"endTime":4536.319,"body":"That was the crunch."},{"startTime":4536.319,"endTime":4537.96,"body":"That was the crunch point. And that"},{"startTime":4537.96,"endTime":4540.159,"body":"effectively was an argument that we won"},{"startTime":4540.159,"endTime":4541.279,"body":"in the Supreme Court."},{"startTime":4542.0,"endTime":4543.359,"body":"We got a little bit further when we"},{"startTime":4543.359,"endTime":4544.64,"body":"got to the Court of Appeal where the"},{"startTime":4544.64,"endTime":4546.399,"body":"Court of Appeal said, well, in principle,"},{"startTime":4546.399,"endTime":4548.76,"body":"yes, the courts could hear a challenge"},{"startTime":4548.76,"endTime":4549.6,"body":"like this, but it's not"},{"startTime":4549.6,"endTime":4550.76,"body":"appropriate in this case."},{"startTime":4550.76,"endTime":4552.159,"body":"I mean, Lord Toulson had been more"},{"startTime":4552.159,"endTime":4553.0,"body":"hard-lined, just saying it"},{"startTime":4553.0,"endTime":4555.359,"body":"was simply not justiciable."},{"startTime":4556.319,"endTime":4558.359,"body":"So we had the Divisional Court hearing."},{"startTime":4558.8,"endTime":4560.8,"body":"Then we appealed that there was some"},{"startTime":4560.8,"endTime":4562.439,"body":"question about whether we should try and"},{"startTime":4562.439,"endTime":4563.239,"body":"get a leapfrog appeal"},{"startTime":4563.239,"endTime":4563.8,"body":"to the Supreme Court."},{"startTime":4563.84,"endTime":4567.319,"body":"But I took the view that better to have"},{"startTime":4567.319,"endTime":4570.159,"body":"gone to the Court of Appeal because if"},{"startTime":4570.159,"endTime":4571.199,"body":"you haven't gone to the Court of Appeal,"},{"startTime":4571.6,"endTime":4573.76,"body":"it gives the Supreme Court another reason"},{"startTime":4573.76,"endTime":4576.96,"body":"to kick it out because it should have"},{"startTime":4576.96,"endTime":4579.84,"body":"been considered again."},{"startTime":4581.439,"endTime":4583.359,"body":"The case had failed in the High Court."},{"startTime":4584.439,"endTime":4586.399,"body":"Just days later, Tony"},{"startTime":4586.399,"endTime":4588.199,"body":"Nicholson tragically died."},{"startTime":4589.119,"endTime":4592.159,"body":"He decided to starve himself to death and"},{"startTime":4592.159,"endTime":4593.199,"body":"developed pneumonia."},{"startTime":4594.479,"endTime":4597.439,"body":"His wife Jane and the legal team had to"},{"startTime":4597.439,"endTime":4600.6,"body":"decide whether to continue the battle and"},{"startTime":4600.6,"endTime":4602.239,"body":"if so, what arguments"},{"startTime":4602.239,"endTime":4604.119,"body":"they could now best deploy."},{"startTime":4611.68,"endTime":4613.319,"body":"You made a decision you would go to"},{"startTime":4613.319,"endTime":4615.039,"body":"the Court of Appeal, but before you even"},{"startTime":4615.039,"endTime":4616.479,"body":"got there, very"},{"startTime":4616.479,"endTime":4619.159,"body":"tragically, Tony Nicklinson died."},{"startTime":4619.72,"endTime":4621.479,"body":"Can you tell me about when you heard of"},{"startTime":4621.479,"endTime":4624.319,"body":"that and your reaction to it?"},{"startTime":4625.319,"endTime":4627.72,"body":"Well, it didn't surprise me."},{"startTime":4628.96,"endTime":4630.72,"body":"I mean, I'd always said to Tony, look,"},{"startTime":4630.72,"endTime":4632.079,"body":"this is a very, very long shot."},{"startTime":4633.399,"endTime":4635.96,"body":"And he had always made it very clear that"},{"startTime":4635.96,"endTime":4638.72,"body":"if he was unsuccessful, then he would"},{"startTime":4638.72,"endTime":4640.72,"body":"take his own life in the only way that he"},{"startTime":4640.72,"endTime":4641.72,"body":"could, which was to"},{"startTime":4641.72,"endTime":4643.72,"body":"starve himself to death."},{"startTime":4644.039,"endTime":4644.88,"body":"Quite shocking, really."},{"startTime":4645.92,"endTime":4646.56,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":4647.399,"endTime":4648.279,"body":"So you weren't"},{"startTime":4648.279,"endTime":4650.84,"body":"surprised when you found out."},{"startTime":4651.159,"endTime":4651.399,"body":"No, I wasn't surprised."},{"startTime":4651.399,"endTime":4652.159,"body":"I wasn't surprised."},{"startTime":4653.92,"endTime":4656.079,"body":"And I certainly couldn't have expected"},{"startTime":4656.079,"endTime":4659.439,"body":"Tony to have held on, you know, on my"},{"startTime":4659.439,"endTime":4660.92,"body":"advice that, well, you know, it might"},{"startTime":4660.92,"endTime":4663.72,"body":"make it easier if you're still around for"},{"startTime":4663.72,"endTime":4667.479,"body":"us to succeed when we get further on."},{"startTime":4667.8,"endTime":4669.96,"body":"And it was only a matter of weeks later,"},{"startTime":4669.96,"endTime":4671.159,"body":"wasn't it, after the decision?"},{"startTime":4671.439,"endTime":4671.6,"body":"It was."},{"startTime":4671.6,"endTime":4671.8,"body":"It was."},{"startTime":4672.399,"endTime":4676.039,"body":"I mean, it was I mean, I can't imagine"},{"startTime":4676.039,"endTime":4678.52,"body":"what it must have been like to be in"},{"startTime":4678.52,"endTime":4680.479,"body":"Tony's situation, but I think it might be"},{"startTime":4680.479,"endTime":4682.399,"body":"right to say that this was perhaps the"},{"startTime":4682.399,"endTime":4684.84,"body":"only thing that was keeping him going at"},{"startTime":4684.84,"endTime":4687.079,"body":"that stage was the prospect of being able"},{"startTime":4687.079,"endTime":4688.239,"body":"to successfully"},{"startTime":4688.239,"endTime":4692.159,"body":"establish that the law was wrong."},{"startTime":4692.68,"endTime":4694.56,"body":"Did you yourself tell him that this"},{"startTime":4694.56,"endTime":4697.64,"body":"application had been unsuccessful, the"},{"startTime":4697.64,"endTime":4698.56,"body":"High Court application?"},{"startTime":4698.8,"endTime":4700.279,"body":"No, I think Saimo must have done that."},{"startTime":4700.479,"endTime":4700.72,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4701.439,"endTime":4702.64,"body":"Obviously, he would have been it would"},{"startTime":4702.64,"endTime":4703.479,"body":"have been a big blow."},{"startTime":4703.88,"endTime":4705.279,"body":"Yes. And so I didn't I"},{"startTime":4705.279,"endTime":4706.119,"body":"didn't meet him again."},{"startTime":4706.119,"endTime":4708.72,"body":"And the next time that I met Jane and"},{"startTime":4708.72,"endTime":4710.8,"body":"Lauren and Beth was at Tony's funeral,"},{"startTime":4711.76,"endTime":4713.079,"body":"which was a few weeks later."},{"startTime":4713.56,"endTime":4715.479,"body":"And I suppose there was a question about"},{"startTime":4715.479,"endTime":4716.84,"body":"whether they would even want to go on"},{"startTime":4716.84,"endTime":4717.72,"body":"with it, was that or"},{"startTime":4717.72,"endTime":4718.6,"body":"was that never in doubt?"},{"startTime":4719.359,"endTime":4720.279,"body":"Jane was very clear that"},{"startTime":4720.279,"endTime":4722.119,"body":"that was what she wanted to do."},{"startTime":4722.439,"endTime":4724.119,"body":"So the the only doubt really was whether"},{"startTime":4724.119,"endTime":4726.72,"body":"we'd be allowed to take take the case on"},{"startTime":4726.72,"endTime":4729.199,"body":"with with her as effectively"},{"startTime":4729.199,"endTime":4732.079,"body":"substituting as the applicant."},{"startTime":4732.199,"endTime":4733.64,"body":"How important was it to you"},{"startTime":4733.64,"endTime":4734.56,"body":"personally that the"},{"startTime":4734.56,"endTime":4735.64,"body":"case should be continued?"},{"startTime":4736.76,"endTime":4741.159,"body":"I had always felt that if we were"},{"startTime":4741.159,"endTime":4744.239,"body":"going to succeed, we were probably only"},{"startTime":4744.239,"endTime":4745.84,"body":"going to succeed in the Supreme Court."},{"startTime":4747.64,"endTime":4750.68,"body":"So and I mean, this is what I've advised"},{"startTime":4750.68,"endTime":4753.199,"body":"clients in cases that I've done over the"},{"startTime":4753.199,"endTime":4755.399,"body":"years where we've been trying to change"},{"startTime":4755.399,"endTime":4758.72,"body":"the law is not to see the first decision"},{"startTime":4758.72,"endTime":4760.84,"body":"as necessarily the end of the process."},{"startTime":4763.079,"endTime":4764.84,"body":"So I mean, obviously, a degree of"},{"startTime":4764.84,"endTime":4768.399,"body":"disappointment that that we weren't going"},{"startTime":4768.399,"endTime":4768.96,"body":"to be able to bring the"},{"startTime":4768.96,"endTime":4770.119,"body":"case in quite the same way."},{"startTime":4770.119,"endTime":4770.84,"body":"And it did have an"},{"startTime":4770.84,"endTime":4772.399,"body":"impact on on our strategy."},{"startTime":4774.159,"endTime":4776.0,"body":"But I've respected his decision."},{"startTime":4776.72,"endTime":4778.439,"body":"Yes. So you went to the Court of Appeal"},{"startTime":4778.439,"endTime":4779.84,"body":"and I'd like to ask you about that"},{"startTime":4779.84,"endTime":4780.88,"body":"because you did change"},{"startTime":4780.88,"endTime":4782.159,"body":"tack, didn't you? Somewhat."},{"startTime":4782.84,"endTime":4784.88,"body":"Analysts talk about how the High"},{"startTime":4784.88,"endTime":4787.319,"body":"Court focused more on the criminal side"},{"startTime":4787.319,"endTime":4788.84,"body":"of things and how you wanted"},{"startTime":4788.84,"endTime":4790.479,"body":"a change to the criminal law."},{"startTime":4790.84,"endTime":4792.479,"body":"And then you went on to look more at the"},{"startTime":4792.479,"endTime":4795.56,"body":"human rights aspects. You tell me. Well,"},{"startTime":4795.56,"endTime":4796.56,"body":"there were there were two."},{"startTime":4796.92,"endTime":4798.56,"body":"There were two strands to the argument"},{"startTime":4798.56,"endTime":4801.76,"body":"that we took in the in the High Court."},{"startTime":4802.84,"endTime":4805.399,"body":"One was based on common law. One was"},{"startTime":4805.399,"endTime":4806.68,"body":"based on the Human Rights Act."},{"startTime":4807.479,"endTime":4810.239,"body":"The Human Rights Act claim sought a"},{"startTime":4810.239,"endTime":4812.399,"body":"declaration of incompatibility under the"},{"startTime":4812.399,"endTime":4813.8,"body":"Human Rights Act in relation to Section"},{"startTime":4813.8,"endTime":4816.079,"body":"two of the Suicide Act, which makes it a"},{"startTime":4816.079,"endTime":4817.479,"body":"criminal offence for a person to assist"},{"startTime":4817.479,"endTime":4819.8,"body":"another person in in in a suicide."},{"startTime":4820.92,"endTime":4822.359,"body":"So that was relatively"},{"startTime":4822.359,"endTime":4823.399,"body":"straightforward and orthodox."},{"startTime":4824.84,"endTime":4827.119,"body":"And that is eventually the only thing"},{"startTime":4827.119,"endTime":4829.039,"body":"that went forward to the Supreme Court."},{"startTime":4829.6,"endTime":4832.96,"body":"But the the other arguments, which in"},{"startTime":4832.96,"endTime":4836.52,"body":"some senses I regret that we didn't take"},{"startTime":4836.52,"endTime":4839.359,"body":"further, were were perhaps more more"},{"startTime":4839.359,"endTime":4843.119,"body":"interesting and perhaps perhaps more"},{"startTime":4843.119,"endTime":4845.72,"body":"rooted in in a kind of common law"},{"startTime":4845.72,"endTime":4848.399,"body":"principles, because they were based on"},{"startTime":4848.399,"endTime":4849.64,"body":"the the doctrine of"},{"startTime":4849.64,"endTime":4851.6,"body":"necessity, which is an old common law"},{"startTime":4852.199,"endTime":4855.56,"body":"concept which can operate as a defence to"},{"startTime":4855.56,"endTime":4857.439,"body":"what would otherwise be a criminal"},{"startTime":4857.439,"endTime":4859.76,"body":"offence. So if you were to take, for"},{"startTime":4859.76,"endTime":4861.72,"body":"example, the conjoined twins case,"},{"startTime":4861.92,"endTime":4866.84,"body":"one of whom was essentially parasitic on"},{"startTime":4866.84,"endTime":4869.439,"body":"the other so that they would both die if"},{"startTime":4869.439,"endTime":4869.92,"body":"they weren't separated."},{"startTime":4869.96,"endTime":4874.039,"body":"But by separating them, the smaller of"},{"startTime":4874.039,"endTime":4875.88,"body":"the two twins would inevitably die. So"},{"startTime":4875.88,"endTime":4879.039,"body":"the question that the Court of Appeal"},{"startTime":4879.039,"endTime":4880.76,"body":"eventually had to decide was whether it"},{"startTime":4880.76,"endTime":4882.64,"body":"would be a whether it would be an"},{"startTime":4882.64,"endTime":4885.68,"body":"offence of murder to to separate the"},{"startTime":4885.68,"endTime":4889.239,"body":"twins, knowing that the act of separating"},{"startTime":4889.239,"endTime":4890.439,"body":"them would kill the"},{"startTime":4890.439,"endTime":4891.56,"body":"the younger of the two."},{"startTime":4891.56,"endTime":4894.199,"body":"And the Court of Appeal held that it wasn't"},{"startTime":4894.199,"endTime":4895.96,"body":"So that was that was one leg, if you"},{"startTime":4895.96,"endTime":4899.68,"body":"like, of the of the the argument. We we"},{"startTime":4899.68,"endTime":4902.319,"body":"we sought to persuade the court that"},{"startTime":4902.319,"endTime":4907.279,"body":"necessity was available as a as a defence"},{"startTime":4907.279,"endTime":4910.319,"body":"even to a criminal offence as serious as"},{"startTime":4910.319,"endTime":4915.68,"body":"murder, where it was being...where a step"},{"startTime":4915.68,"endTime":4918.279,"body":"was taken to avoid a greater harm."},{"startTime":4919.68,"endTime":4921.479,"body":"So in this case, the greater harm was"},{"startTime":4921.479,"endTime":4925.52,"body":"that a person should be left in in agony"},{"startTime":4925.52,"endTime":4927.96,"body":"or in unbearable suffering."},{"startTime":4929.84,"endTime":4932.039,"body":"And our argument was that necessity"},{"startTime":4932.039,"endTime":4936.76,"body":"justified bringing to an end a person's"},{"startTime":4936.76,"endTime":4937.199,"body":"unbearable suffering."},{"startTime":4937.239,"endTime":4940.239,"body":"And not only were we able to point to"},{"startTime":4940.239,"endTime":4942.96,"body":"analogous cases in this jurisdiction, but"},{"startTime":4942.96,"endTime":4945.92,"body":"we were able to point to the very point"},{"startTime":4945.92,"endTime":4948.68,"body":"having been accepted by the Dutch Supreme"},{"startTime":4948.68,"endTime":4952.0,"body":"Court in a series of cases back in the"},{"startTime":4952.0,"endTime":4955.92,"body":"1990s, where the Dutch Supreme Court"},{"startTime":4955.92,"endTime":4958.159,"body":"accepted that the Dutch equivalent of the"},{"startTime":4958.159,"endTime":4960.56,"body":"law of necessity had justified a doctor"},{"startTime":4960.56,"endTime":4962.96,"body":"in assisting an"},{"startTime":4962.96,"endTime":4963.199,"body":"individual to take their life."},{"startTime":4963.199,"endTime":4966.479,"body":"And that that had then led to the Dutch"},{"startTime":4966.479,"endTime":4969.52,"body":"legislation, which which which"},{"startTime":4969.52,"endTime":4972.159,"body":"effectively codified those laws."},{"startTime":4972.52,"endTime":4975.359,"body":"And we could point to Glanville Williams,"},{"startTime":4975.68,"endTime":4979.239,"body":"the sort of doyenne of of criminal law,"},{"startTime":4979.239,"endTime":4983.439,"body":"who had written in his book in 1957, The"},{"startTime":4983.439,"endTime":4985.039,"body":"Sanctity of Life and the Common Law."},{"startTime":4985.039,"endTime":4989.399,"body":"He had written that in principle, the"},{"startTime":4989.399,"endTime":4991.119,"body":"defence of necessity should be able to"},{"startTime":4991.119,"endTime":4993.279,"body":"extend to to a case such as this."},{"startTime":4994.96,"endTime":4997.399,"body":"But once I suppose Tony Nicholson had"},{"startTime":4997.399,"endTime":5000.119,"body":"died, you could obviously no longer argue"},{"startTime":5000.119,"endTime":5001.159,"body":"it even in a theoretical"},{"startTime":5001.159,"endTime":5002.6,"body":"way, could you? Or could you?"},{"startTime":5003.119,"endTime":5004.92,"body":"Well, we could, because I think by that"},{"startTime":5004.92,"endTime":5007.56,"body":"stage we had we had taken on board"},{"startTime":5007.56,"endTime":5010.6,"body":"another claimant, Paul Lamb, who was not"},{"startTime":5010.6,"endTime":5012.039,"body":"as disabled as Tony."},{"startTime":5012.84,"endTime":5013.92,"body":"first about Paul Lamb."},{"startTime":5014.159,"endTime":5017.76,"body":"And so his case was was analogous to"},{"startTime":5017.76,"endTime":5020.96,"body":"Tony's, but but it was never"},{"startTime":5020.96,"endTime":5022.8,"body":"really quite as high profile."},{"startTime":5022.84,"endTime":5026.52,"body":"And it was not as extreme in terms of the"},{"startTime":5026.52,"endTime":5031.0,"body":"facts. And I mean, it's"},{"startTime":5031.0,"endTime":5032.64,"body":"it's a terrible thing to say."},{"startTime":5032.84,"endTime":5034.399,"body":"But but of course, when one is trying to"},{"startTime":5034.399,"endTime":5039.399,"body":"persuade a court to to of your"},{"startTime":5039.399,"endTime":5044.119,"body":"correctness of your your submissions, the"},{"startTime":5044.119,"endTime":5044.8,"body":"facts are important, you know."},{"startTime":5044.84,"endTime":5050.76,"body":"And after Tony had died, there were other cases."},{"startTime":5051.039,"endTime":5053.6,"body":"But in many senses, that was the"},{"startTime":5053.6,"endTime":5054.96,"body":"time if if the law"},{"startTime":5054.96,"endTime":5056.479,"body":"was going to change, it was going to be"},{"startTime":5056.479,"endTime":5057.359,"body":"then because for other"},{"startTime":5057.359,"endTime":5058.439,"body":"the law has since..."},{"startTime":5061.56,"endTime":5063.279,"body":"Gone...if not backwards, has"},{"startTime":5063.279,"endTime":5065.359,"body":"evolved in other directions."},{"startTime":5065.8,"endTime":5069.64,"body":"So so coming back to your your strategy"},{"startTime":5069.64,"endTime":5072.279,"body":"and the prongs of your arguments, how did"},{"startTime":5072.279,"endTime":5074.279,"body":"you then continue the case or decide to"},{"startTime":5074.279,"endTime":5076.359,"body":"continue it at the Court of Appeal?"},{"startTime":5076.64,"endTime":5078.6,"body":"So what so what had happened is is that"},{"startTime":5078.6,"endTime":5080.279,"body":"Tony had died. There was there'd been"},{"startTime":5080.279,"endTime":5081.6,"body":"another development as well, which is in"},{"startTime":5081.6,"endTime":5084.52,"body":"Canada, the the Supreme Court of British"},{"startTime":5084.52,"endTime":5088.76,"body":"Columbia, in a magisterial judgment by"},{"startTime":5088.76,"endTime":5092.56,"body":"Madame Justice Lynn Smith had had given a"},{"startTime":5092.56,"endTime":5096.159,"body":"judgment in a very similar case series of"},{"startTime":5096.159,"endTime":5100.76,"body":"cases in Carter was the lead claimant,"},{"startTime":5101.119,"endTime":5104.399,"body":"Carter in Canada, that similar laws,"},{"startTime":5104.399,"endTime":5106.68,"body":"murder laws and and assisted dying laws"},{"startTime":5106.68,"endTime":5110.319,"body":"were a violation of Section Seven of the"},{"startTime":5110.319,"endTime":5112.159,"body":"Canadian Charter of"},{"startTime":5112.159,"endTime":5113.319,"body":"Fundamental Rights and Freedoms."},{"startTime":5113.319,"endTime":5116.159,"body":"Now, that was in very similar terms to"},{"startTime":5116.159,"endTime":5117.199,"body":"the human rights"},{"startTime":5117.199,"endTime":5119.88,"body":"legislation here, but not identical."},{"startTime":5120.84,"endTime":5121.8,"body":"Well, you must have thought that"},{"startTime":5121.8,"endTime":5123.279,"body":"strengthened your case considerably."},{"startTime":5123.64,"endTime":5129.279,"body":"Well, it certainly heightened the the the"},{"startTime":5129.279,"endTime":5132.199,"body":"importance of focusing on those arguments"},{"startTime":5132.199,"endTime":5133.88,"body":"that were most likely to be successful."},{"startTime":5134.079,"endTime":5136.159,"body":"And it and it and and so from that point"},{"startTime":5136.159,"endTime":5139.64,"body":"on, we saw the human rights arguments as"},{"startTime":5139.64,"endTime":5141.319,"body":"being the ones that if if anything was"},{"startTime":5141.319,"endTime":5143.319,"body":"going to succeed, the stronger card, it"},{"startTime":5143.319,"endTime":5144.72,"body":"was the better one to pursue."},{"startTime":5144.84,"endTime":5147.76,"body":"And I and I and I think I still think, I"},{"startTime":5147.76,"endTime":5149.76,"body":"mean, if we had if the strategy had been"},{"startTime":5149.76,"endTime":5152.159,"body":"successful and there's no reason really"},{"startTime":5152.159,"endTime":5154.199,"body":"to suggest that that it couldn't have"},{"startTime":5154.199,"endTime":5156.72,"body":"been if we had got in front of a judge in"},{"startTime":5156.72,"endTime":5157.68,"body":"the family division and"},{"startTime":5157.68,"endTime":5158.72,"body":"we've been able to call evidence"},{"startTime":5159.88,"endTime":5165.199,"body":"and we had had a proper hearing. I could"},{"startTime":5165.199,"endTime":5167.199,"body":"see a judge having decided in this"},{"startTime":5167.199,"endTime":5170.279,"body":"jurisdiction that necessity did justify"},{"startTime":5170.279,"endTime":5173.64,"body":"that that that that course of action."},{"startTime":5174.68,"endTime":5176.199,"body":"And who knows? Maybe it will. Another"},{"startTime":5176.199,"endTime":5179.76,"body":"day. Exactly. Yet to play for. Anyway, so"},{"startTime":5179.76,"endTime":5181.399,"body":"you went on to the Court of Appeal. The"},{"startTime":5181.399,"endTime":5182.96,"body":"case was then thrown out"},{"startTime":5182.96,"endTime":5183.8,"body":"again, thrown out again."},{"startTime":5183.8,"endTime":5187.359,"body":"And and I mean, you know, that there's"},{"startTime":5187.359,"endTime":5190.479,"body":"that old there's that old saying about if"},{"startTime":5190.479,"endTime":5192.64,"body":"at first you fail, try"},{"startTime":5192.64,"endTime":5195.68,"body":"again, fail again, fail better."},{"startTime":5196.079,"endTime":5198.96,"body":"And that was very much the story of our"},{"startTime":5198.96,"endTime":5200.8,"body":"of the litigation because we did fail at"},{"startTime":5200.8,"endTime":5202.079,"body":"every stage, but we failed a"},{"startTime":5202.079,"endTime":5203.319,"body":"little bit better each time."},{"startTime":5204.0,"endTime":5206.88,"body":"Could I just ask you financially, were"},{"startTime":5206.88,"endTime":5209.64,"body":"you doing this pro bono? I did an awful"},{"startTime":5209.64,"endTime":5210.8,"body":"lot of work for nothing. Did you?"},{"startTime":5210.8,"endTime":5214.199,"body":"I mean, we did have we did have legal"},{"startTime":5214.199,"endTime":5217.96,"body":"aid. You did at a time when I don't doubt"},{"startTime":5217.96,"endTime":5218.64,"body":"very much whether it"},{"startTime":5218.64,"endTime":5219.64,"body":"would be available now."},{"startTime":5219.8,"endTime":5222.64,"body":"But it but but but I think we did the"},{"startTime":5222.64,"endTime":5225.319,"body":"whole case legally. I did. I did some"},{"startTime":5225.319,"endTime":5228.079,"body":"other cases pro bono because it would"},{"startTime":5228.079,"endTime":5230.279,"body":"have been a very costly exercise all the"},{"startTime":5230.279,"endTime":5231.56,"body":"way up to the Supreme Court."},{"startTime":5231.8,"endTime":5233.64,"body":"And it was a very, very significant"},{"startTime":5233.64,"endTime":5237.72,"body":"period of my life that I spent on these"},{"startTime":5237.72,"endTime":5242.64,"body":"cases and and hard for your home life."},{"startTime":5243.119,"endTime":5247.52,"body":"Well, I mean, you know, I worked hard. I"},{"startTime":5247.52,"endTime":5252.6,"body":"had I had a small family. I was I worked"},{"startTime":5252.6,"endTime":5255.8,"body":"from home a lot. So they saw a lot of me."},{"startTime":5256.8,"endTime":5259.52,"body":"Even if it was only from the other side"},{"startTime":5259.52,"endTime":5262.119,"body":"of my desk. But yes, no, I couldn't say"},{"startTime":5262.119,"endTime":5264.079,"body":"that it had a harmful"},{"startTime":5264.079,"endTime":5265.239,"body":"impact on my family."},{"startTime":5265.239,"endTime":5268.0,"body":"I think what what did I mean, eventually"},{"startTime":5268.0,"endTime":5271.88,"body":"there came a point where where after I'd"},{"startTime":5271.88,"endTime":5276.64,"body":"finished this this round of cases, I did"},{"startTime":5276.64,"endTime":5279.319,"body":"feel that perhaps the time was right for"},{"startTime":5279.319,"endTime":5280.239,"body":"somebody else to pick up"},{"startTime":5280.239,"endTime":5282.52,"body":"the pick up the cudgels."},{"startTime":5282.88,"endTime":5285.52,"body":"Well, actually, what I thought was for"},{"startTime":5285.52,"endTime":5286.039,"body":"Parliament to do something about it. Yes."},{"startTime":5286.319,"endTime":5288.52,"body":"Yet again, the application failed."},{"startTime":5289.359,"endTime":5292.439,"body":"Lord Dyson, Master of the Rolls, with two"},{"startTime":5292.439,"endTime":5294.399,"body":"other Appeal Court judges,"},{"startTime":5294.52,"endTime":5295.84,"body":"rejected it."},{"startTime":5296.84,"endTime":5298.159,"body":"The central legal issue"},{"startTime":5298.159,"endTime":5300.159,"body":"was a constitutional one."},{"startTime":5300.399,"endTime":5302.76,"body":"Was it right for the courts even to rule"},{"startTime":5302.76,"endTime":5305.199,"body":"on such a fundamental issue of social"},{"startTime":5305.199,"endTime":5307.239,"body":"policy, or was this a"},{"startTime":5307.239,"endTime":5308.199,"body":"matter for Parliament?"},{"startTime":5308.199,"endTime":5308.92,"body":"OK, so just read from that line."},{"startTime":5309.119,"endTime":5310.56,"body":"The Court of Appeal thought"},{"startTime":5310.56,"endTime":5311.96,"body":"it should be for Parliament."},{"startTime":5312.68,"endTime":5314.52,"body":"So this was an issue now that the"},{"startTime":5314.52,"endTime":5316.8,"body":"Nicklinson family would take to the"},{"startTime":5316.8,"endTime":5317.8,"body":"highest court in the"},{"startTime":5317.8,"endTime":5320.199,"body":"land, to the Supreme Court."},{"startTime":5323.52,"endTime":5327.479,"body":"So Lord Dyson and no doubt two other judges"},{"startTime":5327.479,"endTime":5329.88,"body":"rejected the they did."},{"startTime":5330.239,"endTime":5331.96,"body":"And that wasn't again, that wasn't that"},{"startTime":5331.96,"endTime":5336.84,"body":"surprising because, as I've said, the the"},{"startTime":5336.84,"endTime":5338.92,"body":"whole question was about whether"},{"startTime":5339.0,"endTime":5339.64,"body":"the court should even"},{"startTime":5339.64,"endTime":5340.8,"body":"grapple with these issues."},{"startTime":5340.84,"endTime":5343.359,"body":"And like I say, when we when we did"},{"startTime":5343.359,"endTime":5347.439,"body":"finally get to the Supreme Court, that"},{"startTime":5347.439,"endTime":5348.56,"body":"that was the central"},{"startTime":5348.56,"endTime":5350.199,"body":"that was a central question."},{"startTime":5350.84,"endTime":5353.359,"body":"And it was a huge constitutional issue"},{"startTime":5353.359,"endTime":5355.92,"body":"because if they hadn't gone along with"},{"startTime":5355.92,"endTime":5357.84,"body":"that, then the whole thing wouldn't even"},{"startTime":5357.84,"endTime":5359.039,"body":"been looked at in terms of"},{"startTime":5359.039,"endTime":5359.8,"body":"the merits of it, would it?"},{"startTime":5359.84,"endTime":5365.68,"body":"Well, you see, where we got to, we had a"},{"startTime":5365.68,"endTime":5367.359,"body":"panel of nine in the Supreme Court, which"},{"startTime":5367.359,"endTime":5369.119,"body":"is very unusual. They had only ever had"},{"startTime":5369.119,"endTime":5372.319,"body":"one case with a panel of more than nine."},{"startTime":5374.0,"endTime":5375.359,"body":"In fact, that was after Nicklinson. That"},{"startTime":5375.359,"endTime":5378.0,"body":"was in the Brexit litigation. So nine, I"},{"startTime":5378.0,"endTime":5379.399,"body":"think, at that stage was the was the"},{"startTime":5379.399,"endTime":5380.8,"body":"largest panel that had ever been."},{"startTime":5380.84,"endTime":5383.52,"body":"So it was quite unprecedented in a number"},{"startTime":5383.52,"endTime":5386.119,"body":"of ways. Yes. Being one of them. Lord"},{"startTime":5386.119,"endTime":5388.52,"body":"Neuberger was chairing the. That's right."},{"startTime":5388.76,"endTime":5390.119,"body":"Panel, wasn't he? That's right."},{"startTime":5390.64,"endTime":5392.64,"body":"And you had had you been in the Supreme"},{"startTime":5392.64,"endTime":5395.239,"body":"Court before yourself? I had, yes. And"},{"startTime":5395.239,"endTime":5397.8,"body":"I'd been in front of Lord Neuberger. And"},{"startTime":5397.8,"endTime":5400.76,"body":"no, I mean, I've been I've been in the"},{"startTime":5400.76,"endTime":5402.68,"body":"House of Lords of Supreme Court over my"},{"startTime":5402.68,"endTime":5405.359,"body":"career, twenty three, twenty four times."},{"startTime":5405.8,"endTime":5408.64,"body":"I was I was comfortable, but I mean, it"},{"startTime":5408.64,"endTime":5411.0,"body":"was a big case. Exactly. Everyone was"},{"startTime":5411.0,"endTime":5412.68,"body":"watching it. Everybody was watching it."},{"startTime":5414.319,"endTime":5417.079,"body":"And I remember talking to David Pannick,"},{"startTime":5417.319,"endTime":5419.56,"body":"who Lord Pannick, who had led me in the"},{"startTime":5419.56,"endTime":5423.52,"body":"Purdy case and was now appearing for one"},{"startTime":5423.52,"endTime":5424.439,"body":"of the interested parties."},{"startTime":5424.76,"endTime":5425.88,"body":"And we were having a little bit of a"},{"startTime":5425.88,"endTime":5429.0,"body":"chat. You say, well, you know, you're a"},{"startTime":5429.0,"endTime":5430.68,"body":"big boy now. You can do this on your own."},{"startTime":5434.079,"endTime":5435.52,"body":"You know, it was it was an extraordinary"},{"startTime":5435.52,"endTime":5438.479,"body":"experience. Was it nerve wracking? Of"},{"startTime":5438.479,"endTime":5444.6,"body":"course it was. But but I had I had a very"},{"startTime":5444.6,"endTime":5447.359,"body":"good junior Guy Vassall-Adams, who who had"},{"startTime":5447.359,"endTime":5449.039,"body":"come down to my home a"},{"startTime":5449.039,"endTime":5449.88,"body":"few weeks beforehand."},{"startTime":5449.88,"endTime":5453.039,"body":"And we'd we had we had gamed it out. We"},{"startTime":5453.039,"endTime":5455.52,"body":"spent the whole day. I remember with him"},{"startTime":5455.52,"endTime":5457.76,"body":"pretending to be one Supreme Court"},{"startTime":5457.76,"endTime":5459.399,"body":"justice or another while I sort of went"},{"startTime":5459.399,"endTime":5460.8,"body":"through our submissions and and."},{"startTime":5460.84,"endTime":5463.0,"body":"Butting back the questions and answers."},{"startTime":5463.64,"endTime":5465.6,"body":"And so we had, you know, I mean."},{"startTime":5466.92,"endTime":5469.199,"body":"The old adage of, you know, the only"},{"startTime":5469.199,"endTime":5470.0,"body":"thing you have to do is"},{"startTime":5470.0,"endTime":5471.72,"body":"prepare, prepare, prepare."},{"startTime":5471.96,"endTime":5475.119,"body":"I'd certainly done that. But yes. But no,"},{"startTime":5475.119,"endTime":5477.0,"body":"of course, it was it was an extraordinary"},{"startTime":5477.0,"endTime":5478.239,"body":"case to be involved. Yes."},{"startTime":5478.84,"endTime":5481.96,"body":"And of course, it had the sort of the"},{"startTime":5481.96,"endTime":5487.159,"body":"intellectual counterpoint to what turned"},{"startTime":5487.159,"endTime":5489.119,"body":"out to be the majority, which was led by"},{"startTime":5489.119,"endTime":5492.039,"body":"Lord Sumption, who were in a minority on"},{"startTime":5492.039,"endTime":5494.159,"body":"the on the big constitutional question."},{"startTime":5494.64,"endTime":5497.439,"body":"But as we'll see, eventually his. Yes."},{"startTime":5498.8,"endTime":5502.76,"body":"The one that's that's been carried"},{"startTime":5502.76,"endTime":5504.96,"body":"forward in cases since then."},{"startTime":5504.96,"endTime":5507.92,"body":"But so the big question of constitutional"},{"startTime":5507.92,"endTime":5511.359,"body":"law that that we had to persuade the"},{"startTime":5511.359,"endTime":5512.399,"body":"court of first before we got"},{"startTime":5512.399,"endTime":5515.079,"body":"anywhere else was was this."},{"startTime":5515.52,"endTime":5517.319,"body":"It was acknowledged we had to acknowledge"},{"startTime":5517.319,"endTime":5521.319,"body":"that if this case went to Strasbourg, the"},{"startTime":5521.319,"endTime":5523.239,"body":"European Court of Human Rights would say"},{"startTime":5523.239,"endTime":5525.439,"body":"that whether a country"},{"startTime":5525.439,"endTime":5526.8,"body":"introduces the law of assisted dying."},{"startTime":5526.8,"endTime":5529.56,"body":"Or doesn't introduce the law of assisted"},{"startTime":5529.56,"endTime":5531.68,"body":"dying falls within that"},{"startTime":5531.68,"endTime":5534.039,"body":"country's margin of appreciation."},{"startTime":5535.52,"endTime":5537.159,"body":"And this is a concept that has been"},{"startTime":5537.159,"endTime":5539.399,"body":"developed. In other words, it's within"},{"startTime":5539.399,"endTime":5541.56,"body":"the prerogative to"},{"startTime":5541.56,"endTime":5542.439,"body":"deal with it themselves."},{"startTime":5542.68,"endTime":5544.8,"body":"It's for them to decide. Strasbourg Court"},{"startTime":5544.8,"endTime":5545.92,"body":"is not going to say that"},{"startTime":5545.92,"endTime":5547.76,"body":"they're that they've acted..."},{"startTime":5548.0,"endTime":5549.8,"body":"Overstepped the mark. Incorrectly. That"},{"startTime":5549.8,"endTime":5552.0,"body":"they've acted disproportionately. That is"},{"startTime":5552.0,"endTime":5553.8,"body":"a decision for the domestic authorities."},{"startTime":5554.8,"endTime":5557.399,"body":"And that had been the decision in [Diane] Pretty."},{"startTime":5558.52,"endTime":5560.6,"body":"And we had no doubt that that was what"},{"startTime":5560.6,"endTime":5562.359,"body":"the Strasbourg Court would say if they"},{"startTime":5562.359,"endTime":5564.0,"body":"were presented with this question again."},{"startTime":5564.0,"endTime":5565.399,"body":"And indeed, they have since reached"},{"startTime":5565.399,"endTime":5566.439,"body":"exactly that conclusion"},{"startTime":5566.439,"endTime":5568.159,"body":"in decisions since then."},{"startTime":5568.88,"endTime":5571.359,"body":"The big question that we were trying to"},{"startTime":5571.359,"endTime":5573.0,"body":"persuade the Supreme Court of was this"},{"startTime":5573.0,"endTime":5576.159,"body":"bearing in mind that the domestic courts"},{"startTime":5576.159,"endTime":5579.119,"body":"are in themselves part of"},{"startTime":5579.119,"endTime":5580.88,"body":"the domestic authorities."},{"startTime":5581.239,"endTime":5583.159,"body":"So the domestic courts could conclude"},{"startTime":5583.159,"endTime":5585.8,"body":"that the legislation was incompatible"},{"startTime":5585.8,"endTime":5589.76,"body":"with human rights, even if the Strasbourg"},{"startTime":5589.76,"endTime":5591.239,"body":"Court would have said otherwise."},{"startTime":5591.68,"endTime":5593.8,"body":"Correct. So that was a big point. That's"},{"startTime":5593.8,"endTime":5595.239,"body":"a big point. So let's just deal with that"},{"startTime":5595.239,"endTime":5596.279,"body":"point first. So what did the"},{"startTime":5596.279,"endTime":5596.8,"body":"court decide on that? Remind us."},{"startTime":5597.8,"endTime":5600.6,"body":"So on that point, we won. Yes. By a"},{"startTime":5600.6,"endTime":5604.199,"body":"majority of five to four. Yes. Yes. Well,"},{"startTime":5604.199,"endTime":5605.64,"body":"it was very narrow. It was."},{"startTime":5605.88,"endTime":5606.8,"body":"It couldn't have been narrower."},{"startTime":5607.159,"endTime":5609.76,"body":"And as I if we come to it, it's since"},{"startTime":5609.76,"endTime":5612.88,"body":"been overturned on that point. So but"},{"startTime":5612.88,"endTime":5614.119,"body":"that was the big that was the big"},{"startTime":5614.119,"endTime":5615.119,"body":"constitutional point."},{"startTime":5615.319,"endTime":5617.239,"body":"So, yes, they did have the right to"},{"startTime":5617.239,"endTime":5619.439,"body":"look at it. They did. And then then they"},{"startTime":5619.439,"endTime":5621.399,"body":"went on to consider the question of"},{"startTime":5621.399,"endTime":5623.72,"body":"whether they should make a declaration."},{"startTime":5623.76,"endTime":5625.479,"body":"We get what whether they should decide"},{"startTime":5625.479,"endTime":5629.039,"body":"that it's incompatible or not. And on"},{"startTime":5629.039,"endTime":5634.72,"body":"that, we lost seven-two. So I don't as I"},{"startTime":5634.72,"endTime":5637.399,"body":"remember it, Lord Neuberger and others"},{"startTime":5637.399,"endTime":5638.359,"body":"were saying, really,"},{"startTime":5638.68,"endTime":5639.399,"body":"it was for Parliament."},{"startTime":5639.68,"endTime":5641.359,"body":"Well, they accepted in principle. I mean,"},{"startTime":5641.359,"endTime":5642.84,"body":"what was interesting about it is they"},{"startTime":5642.84,"endTime":5648.279,"body":"said, well, two of them, Brenda Hale and"},{"startTime":5648.279,"endTime":5650.439,"body":"and the late Lord Kerr,"},{"startTime":5651.72,"endTime":5653.72,"body":"held that it was something that they"},{"startTime":5653.72,"endTime":5655.439,"body":"could decide. And they went on and said"},{"startTime":5655.439,"endTime":5657.159,"body":"that it is incompatible with Article"},{"startTime":5657.159,"endTime":5658.52,"body":"eight. And they would grant a"},{"startTime":5658.52,"endTime":5659.6,"body":"declaration of incompatibility."},{"startTime":5660.84,"endTime":5662.92,"body":"The other three who had been in the"},{"startTime":5662.92,"endTime":5666.0,"body":"majority on the big constitutional point"},{"startTime":5666.0,"endTime":5670.359,"body":"said that it's not for us now to decide"},{"startTime":5670.359,"endTime":5672.439,"body":"it because Parliament is"},{"startTime":5672.439,"endTime":5673.72,"body":"actually seized with the issue."},{"startTime":5673.76,"endTime":5676.199,"body":"Lord Falconer's bill was in front of"},{"startTime":5676.199,"endTime":5678.279,"body":"Parliament at that time. Was that the"},{"startTime":5678.279,"endTime":5680.8,"body":"main reason? Yes, they said that they"},{"startTime":5680.8,"endTime":5682.84,"body":"said and what they effectively did was"},{"startTime":5682.84,"endTime":5684.119,"body":"give them give Parliament"},{"startTime":5684.119,"endTime":5685.479,"body":"a shot across the bows."},{"startTime":5685.479,"endTime":5687.52,"body":"They did. And I think they gave me it's"},{"startTime":5687.52,"endTime":5689.399,"body":"ironic considering now because we're"},{"startTime":5689.399,"endTime":5691.8,"body":"talking when this was all happening, was"},{"startTime":5691.8,"endTime":5694.039,"body":"was 12 years ago, 2014."},{"startTime":5694.76,"endTime":5697.119,"body":"Correct. And they said we'll...Parliament, as"},{"startTime":5697.119,"endTime":5699.079,"body":"you say, is seized of it and we'll wait for"},{"startTime":5699.079,"endTime":5702.119,"body":"Parliament to act? Yes. And what we were"},{"startTime":5702.119,"endTime":5704.6,"body":"doing as lawyers, we recognised that the"},{"startTime":5704.6,"endTime":5707.039,"body":"that what the judgment had provided us"},{"startTime":5707.039,"endTime":5708.399,"body":"with was a template."},{"startTime":5710.399,"endTime":5714.039,"body":"So that if Parliament didn't didn't"},{"startTime":5714.039,"endTime":5716.52,"body":"legislate, then we could bring the right"},{"startTime":5716.52,"endTime":5720.119,"body":"case back after Parliament had done had"},{"startTime":5720.119,"endTime":5722.72,"body":"had failed to deal with the point, if it"},{"startTime":5722.72,"endTime":5725.0,"body":"if it failed to deal with the point and"},{"startTime":5725.0,"endTime":5726.72,"body":"give the courts another another go."},{"startTime":5726.72,"endTime":5728.96,"body":"And that was explicitly what what Lord"},{"startTime":5728.96,"endTime":5731.319,"body":"Neuberger certainly was anticipating when"},{"startTime":5731.319,"endTime":5732.72,"body":"he when he gave his judgment."},{"startTime":5733.0,"endTime":5735.319,"body":"So so what do you feel then about how"},{"startTime":5735.319,"endTime":5737.68,"body":"things have turned out since? I mean,"},{"startTime":5737.68,"endTime":5741.0,"body":"well, we don't have a change in the law."},{"startTime":5741.84,"endTime":5744.039,"body":"Well, what what what did happen is, yes,"},{"startTime":5744.359,"endTime":5746.359,"body":"the Falconer bill. I'm not sure what's"},{"startTime":5746.359,"endTime":5747.479,"body":"the Falconer bill at that point."},{"startTime":5747.88,"endTime":5751.68,"body":"It was because because I can't remember"},{"startTime":5751.68,"endTime":5753.68,"body":"whose bill it was at that stage. But"},{"startTime":5753.68,"endTime":5754.96,"body":"anyway, that one didn't"},{"startTime":5754.96,"endTime":5756.039,"body":"didn't get very far at all."},{"startTime":5757.76,"endTime":5762.439,"body":"So we we were ready to bring some further"},{"startTime":5762.439,"endTime":5764.6,"body":"claims. That's to say, we, Saimo and I,"},{"startTime":5764.6,"endTime":5766.92,"body":"we'd been working on on this issue."},{"startTime":5767.239,"endTime":5769.279,"body":"And she had already been contacted by"},{"startTime":5769.279,"endTime":5770.72,"body":"other individuals in the"},{"startTime":5770.72,"endTime":5772.52,"body":"same or similar situation."},{"startTime":5773.72,"endTime":5774.96,"body":"And I think it's really important to"},{"startTime":5774.96,"endTime":5777.56,"body":"recognise that and I think this is one of"},{"startTime":5777.56,"endTime":5781.6,"body":"the big failings on the part of us as as"},{"startTime":5781.6,"endTime":5786.159,"body":"the as the litigators, that there was a"},{"startTime":5786.159,"endTime":5788.359,"body":"split between the two"},{"startTime":5788.359,"endTime":5790.039,"body":"groups that were litigating this."},{"startTime":5790.72,"endTime":5794.319,"body":"There was there was the the group that"},{"startTime":5794.319,"endTime":5799.6,"body":"that Dignity and Dying supported and they"},{"startTime":5799.6,"endTime":5804.84,"body":"were trying to limit the extent of any"},{"startTime":5804.84,"endTime":5806.359,"body":"human rights challenge"},{"startTime":5806.359,"endTime":5809.439,"body":"to the the Falconer bill."},{"startTime":5811.8,"endTime":5819.72,"body":"And that was all they thought that they"},{"startTime":5819.72,"endTime":5824.039,"body":"needed to achieve. And those like us who"},{"startTime":5824.039,"endTime":5826.399,"body":"were representing individuals who didn't"},{"startTime":5826.399,"endTime":5829.92,"body":"fit into the 12 month term illness, who"},{"startTime":5829.92,"endTime":5831.68,"body":"were looking at a wider category."},{"startTime":5832.039,"endTime":5833.96,"body":"So you're you're talking now you've gone"},{"startTime":5833.96,"endTime":5835.8,"body":"outside the court, you're looking at"},{"startTime":5835.8,"endTime":5837.96,"body":"those who are less litigating or rather"},{"startTime":5837.96,"endTime":5839.72,"body":"legislating now, really, are you?"},{"startTime":5839.76,"endTime":5841.439,"body":"No, I'm looking at those who are"},{"startTime":5841.439,"endTime":5843.84,"body":"litigating because I mean, the problem"},{"startTime":5843.84,"endTime":5846.72,"body":"arose in in in the case of Nicholson"},{"startTime":5846.72,"endTime":5850.56,"body":"itself, because we, the Nicklinson team"},{"startTime":5850.56,"endTime":5852.6,"body":"and the Paul Lamb team were"},{"startTime":5852.6,"endTime":5855.68,"body":"looking for a wider definition of"},{"startTime":5855.72,"endTime":5858.079,"body":"incompatibility, which which was not"},{"startTime":5858.079,"endTime":5859.72,"body":"limited to those who were terminally ill"},{"startTime":5859.72,"endTime":5862.319,"body":"with 12 months or fewer to live. And who"},{"startTime":5862.319,"endTime":5865.239,"body":"was arguing for the more limited version?"},{"startTime":5865.239,"endTime":5867.92,"body":"Then the Dignity and Dying intervened."},{"startTime":5868.72,"endTime":5871.359,"body":"And then another case by somebody who was"},{"startTime":5871.359,"endTime":5874.0,"body":"known only as Martin, who also"},{"startTime":5874.0,"endTime":5877.239,"body":"intervened, they were seeking a more"},{"startTime":5877.239,"endTime":5879.439,"body":"limited declaration."},{"startTime":5879.96,"endTime":5882.079,"body":"And this formed the basis of the bill,"},{"startTime":5882.359,"endTime":5883.92,"body":"Lord Falconer's bill, didn't it? Correct."},{"startTime":5884.119,"endTime":5886.92,"body":"Yes. So that it actually the bill had it"},{"startTime":5886.92,"endTime":5889.159,"body":"proceeded wouldn't have helped somebody"},{"startTime":5889.159,"endTime":5890.84,"body":"like Tony Nicklinson at all."},{"startTime":5890.84,"endTime":5891.52,"body":"Wouldn't have helped him anyway."},{"startTime":5891.84,"endTime":5894.0,"body":"Would have helped at all. Because just to"},{"startTime":5894.0,"endTime":5896.84,"body":"remind people that bill, you had to have"},{"startTime":5896.84,"endTime":5899.84,"body":"only six months to live. And there were"},{"startTime":5899.84,"endTime":5902.319,"body":"other kinds of safeguards, which meant"},{"startTime":5902.319,"endTime":5905.56,"body":"that he wouldn't fall into the category."},{"startTime":5905.56,"endTime":5906.84,"body":"He wouldn't. And he wouldn't fall within"},{"startTime":5906.84,"endTime":5908.72,"body":"the category of the current bill either."},{"startTime":5908.72,"endTime":5912.359,"body":"Yes, right. Well, exactly. So and I think"},{"startTime":5912.359,"endTime":5915.6,"body":"I think so when you say the big failing,"},{"startTime":5915.6,"endTime":5917.399,"body":"can you explain what you mean? And this"},{"startTime":5917.399,"endTime":5920.88,"body":"is not to cast blame on either side, but"},{"startTime":5920.88,"endTime":5922.76,"body":"the failing in the sense that there was a"},{"startTime":5922.76,"endTime":5926.92,"body":"split among those who were seeking to to"},{"startTime":5926.92,"endTime":5928.88,"body":"bring about a change."},{"startTime":5929.0,"endTime":5933.239,"body":"And I think that that undermined both"},{"startTime":5933.239,"endTime":5936.8,"body":"sides of it, both parties who were"},{"startTime":5936.8,"endTime":5938.96,"body":"arguing the cases, I think their cases"},{"startTime":5938.96,"endTime":5940.96,"body":"were undermined by the fact that there"},{"startTime":5940.96,"endTime":5943.8,"body":"wasn't unanimity of approach. I mean, one"},{"startTime":5943.8,"endTime":5946.319,"body":"can see the pragmatic reasons for it,"},{"startTime":5946.319,"endTime":5948.199,"body":"because I think Lord Falconer and his"},{"startTime":5948.199,"endTime":5950.76,"body":"supporters would have said, if you go for"},{"startTime":5950.76,"endTime":5952.6,"body":"a wider thing, there's no chance of"},{"startTime":5952.6,"endTime":5953.84,"body":"getting this through Parliament."},{"startTime":5953.84,"endTime":5956.92,"body":"And I know Dignity in Dying had taken"},{"startTime":5956.92,"endTime":5961.0,"body":"that approach very firmly. And because of"},{"startTime":5961.0,"endTime":5962.72,"body":"course, they had supported Debbie"},{"startTime":5962.72,"endTime":5964.92,"body":"Purdy's case, for example, but they"},{"startTime":5964.92,"endTime":5966.88,"body":"didn't support Tony Nicklinson's case."},{"startTime":5968.079,"endTime":5972.479,"body":"And, you know, if perhaps if one were to"},{"startTime":5972.479,"endTime":5974.92,"body":"go back and do it all again, one would"},{"startTime":5974.92,"endTime":5977.199,"body":"have found that somebody who had 12"},{"startTime":5977.199,"endTime":5979.68,"body":"months or less to live and had limited it"},{"startTime":5979.68,"endTime":5981.0,"body":"to that particular"},{"startTime":5981.0,"endTime":5982.84,"body":"category and everything else."},{"startTime":5982.88,"endTime":5984.8,"body":"And everything else had been replicated."},{"startTime":5985.6,"endTime":5987.84,"body":"Would that have succeeded at that time?"},{"startTime":5987.84,"endTime":5991.439,"body":"Who knows? Similarly, if everybody"},{"startTime":5991.439,"endTime":5993.6,"body":"had got behind Tony's case and had and"},{"startTime":5993.6,"endTime":5995.52,"body":"had argued for the wider challenge, as"},{"startTime":5995.52,"endTime":5997.239,"body":"they did in Canada, for example, so in"},{"startTime":5997.239,"endTime":5998.76,"body":"[Kay] Carter in Canada, they"},{"startTime":5998.76,"endTime":6000.359,"body":"went for the wider option."},{"startTime":6000.88,"endTime":6004.319,"body":"And every single group that were involved"},{"startTime":6004.319,"endTime":6007.359,"body":"in this issue coalesced around that one"},{"startTime":6007.359,"endTime":6011.479,"body":"case. So there was this unanimity of view"},{"startTime":6011.479,"endTime":6014.96,"body":"and approach. And I just think from a it"},{"startTime":6014.96,"endTime":6016.72,"body":"would be a very interesting case study"},{"startTime":6016.72,"endTime":6021.72,"body":"for strategic litigation to to to"},{"startTime":6021.72,"endTime":6025.159,"body":"identify which cases succeed, where"},{"startTime":6025.159,"endTime":6028.159,"body":"everybody's singing from the same hymn"},{"startTime":6028.159,"endTime":6029.199,"body":"sheet and which ones fail"},{"startTime":6029.199,"endTime":6029.84,"body":"when they when they don't."},{"startTime":6029.88,"endTime":6033.52,"body":"And I think it's likely to be. And"},{"startTime":6033.52,"endTime":6035.72,"body":"now we've got a second attempt, a private"},{"startTime":6035.72,"endTime":6038.52,"body":"member's bill going through, the Leadbeater"},{"startTime":6038.52,"endTime":6041.359,"body":"bill. What's your view about whether"},{"startTime":6041.359,"endTime":6043.399,"body":"Parliament has really"},{"startTime":6043.399,"endTime":6045.6,"body":"failed the courts in this?"},{"startTime":6045.6,"endTime":6048.039,"body":"I mean, the Supreme Court threw down the"},{"startTime":6048.039,"endTime":6049.199,"body":"gauntlet and said it's for"},{"startTime":6049.199,"endTime":6050.52,"body":"you and it hasn't happened."},{"startTime":6050.84,"endTime":6053.8,"body":"Funnily enough, I went and I went and gave"},{"startTime":6053.8,"endTime":6056.84,"body":"evidence to the Joint Committee on Human"},{"startTime":6056.84,"endTime":6060.359,"body":"Rights after the bill had gone through"},{"startTime":6060.359,"endTime":6062.0,"body":"the House of Commons and as it was going"},{"startTime":6062.279,"endTime":6066.159,"body":"through the House of Lords and the"},{"startTime":6066.159,"endTime":6068.76,"body":"another lawyer who was giving evidence"},{"startTime":6069.079,"endTime":6071.439,"body":"there was Lord Carlile of Berriew, who"},{"startTime":6071.64,"endTime":6075.64,"body":"is implacably opposed to any relaxation"},{"startTime":6075.64,"endTime":6076.359,"body":"of the current"},{"startTime":6076.359,"endTime":6079.399,"body":"prohibition on assisted suicide."},{"startTime":6079.399,"endTime":6082.439,"body":"And he, as I understand it, is one of"},{"startTime":6082.439,"endTime":6085.279,"body":"five peers who have between them put down"},{"startTime":6085.279,"endTime":6089.319,"body":"over a thousand amendments in the House"},{"startTime":6089.319,"endTime":6094.0,"body":"of Lords, which means that effectively,"},{"startTime":6094.0,"endTime":6096.56,"body":"because they don't have a guillotine in"},{"startTime":6096.56,"endTime":6097.359,"body":"the House of Lords, which"},{"startTime":6097.359,"endTime":6099.159,"body":"they do in the House of Commons."},{"startTime":6099.159,"endTime":6102.039,"body":"That's to say a Speaker who can say,"},{"startTime":6102.039,"endTime":6103.64,"body":"right, well, that's as much time as"},{"startTime":6103.64,"endTime":6105.159,"body":"you're going to get. You've got to you've"},{"startTime":6105.159,"endTime":6108.039,"body":"got to vote on it. The peers can can talk"},{"startTime":6108.039,"endTime":6109.76,"body":"it out. And that's"},{"startTime":6109.76,"endTime":6110.6,"body":"clearly what will happen."},{"startTime":6110.6,"endTime":6114.56,"body":"That is what's likely to happen. Now, I'm"},{"startTime":6114.56,"endTime":6115.84,"body":"not going to offer any views about"},{"startTime":6115.84,"endTime":6117.6,"body":"whether that's right or wrong. I was"},{"startTime":6117.6,"endTime":6121.079,"body":"listening to Ken McDonald [KC] and Tim Owen [KC] on"},{"startTime":6121.079,"endTime":6123.159,"body":"this on their podcast the other day."},{"startTime":6123.199,"endTime":6125.079,"body":"And Ken was saying that it was"},{"startTime":6125.079,"endTime":6127.6,"body":"disgraceful. And I mean, he's a peer so"},{"startTime":6127.6,"endTime":6131.399,"body":"he can he can say that. But it but it"},{"startTime":6131.399,"endTime":6136.079,"body":"does throw up the the difficulties of of"},{"startTime":6136.079,"endTime":6137.72,"body":"legislating in these very"},{"startTime":6137.72,"endTime":6140.239,"body":"difficult moral and ethical issues."},{"startTime":6142.159,"endTime":6145.92,"body":"And, you know, that is that that is just"},{"startTime":6145.92,"endTime":6149.84,"body":"part of our that's how our system works."},{"startTime":6149.84,"endTime":6152.0,"body":"The question is, is it should it be that"},{"startTime":6152.0,"endTime":6155.039,"body":"way? I don't have a view on that. Is this"},{"startTime":6155.039,"endTime":6156.279,"body":"the end? I doubt very much"},{"startTime":6156.279,"endTime":6157.8,"body":"whether that will be the end."},{"startTime":6159.239,"endTime":6162.479,"body":"Because I think that that whether it"},{"startTime":6162.479,"endTime":6164.359,"body":"happens with this bill or another bill,"},{"startTime":6164.359,"endTime":6167.159,"body":"this this this will eventually end up"},{"startTime":6167.159,"endTime":6169.319,"body":"being legislated for."},{"startTime":6170.159,"endTime":6171.76,"body":"Do you think we would be in a different"},{"startTime":6171.76,"endTime":6173.52,"body":"position or something might have happened"},{"startTime":6173.52,"endTime":6175.279,"body":"sooner had the courts made the"},{"startTime":6175.279,"endTime":6177.92,"body":"declaration of incompatibility when you"},{"startTime":6177.92,"endTime":6180.119,"body":"took it up to the Supreme Court and if"},{"startTime":6180.119,"endTime":6181.8,"body":"they'd said this is incompatible with"},{"startTime":6181.8,"endTime":6184.039,"body":"human rights, then the government would"},{"startTime":6184.039,"endTime":6185.76,"body":"have had to have acted. Would it not?"},{"startTime":6186.199,"endTime":6188.399,"body":"I think so. I think I think that would"},{"startTime":6188.399,"endTime":6190.079,"body":"have had two consequences. One is that"},{"startTime":6190.079,"endTime":6192.319,"body":"the immediate one that, yes, it would"},{"startTime":6192.319,"endTime":6195.479,"body":"have concentrated Parliament's minds in a"},{"startTime":6195.479,"endTime":6197.159,"body":"way that that that the"},{"startTime":6197.159,"endTime":6198.56,"body":"shot across the bows didn't."},{"startTime":6199.439,"endTime":6203.479,"body":"And they wouldn't have to, of course,"},{"startTime":6203.88,"endTime":6205.279,"body":"legislate, but there would have been a"},{"startTime":6205.279,"endTime":6208.76,"body":"very significant pressure to legislate."},{"startTime":6209.68,"endTime":6211.239,"body":"But that counterfactual is very difficult"},{"startTime":6211.239,"endTime":6214.6,"body":"to to countenance anyway, because there"},{"startTime":6214.6,"endTime":6216.439,"body":"wasn't a majority in Parliament at that"},{"startTime":6216.439,"endTime":6217.159,"body":"time in favour of a change in the law."},{"startTime":6217.159,"endTime":6219.039,"body":"So maybe the bill still would have"},{"startTime":6219.039,"endTime":6223.239,"body":"failed. I do think that had they done"},{"startTime":6223.239,"endTime":6225.159,"body":"that, had the Supreme Court done that, it"},{"startTime":6225.159,"endTime":6228.72,"body":"would have led to even more of a backlash"},{"startTime":6228.72,"endTime":6232.119,"body":"than there has been to the the Human"},{"startTime":6232.119,"endTime":6237.399,"body":"Rights Act as a as a kind of means of of"},{"startTime":6237.399,"endTime":6239.8,"body":"of legislating through litigating, which"},{"startTime":6239.8,"endTime":6244.199,"body":"is which has been a theme that we've"},{"startTime":6244.199,"endTime":6246.159,"body":"we've seen in recent years."},{"startTime":6248.0,"endTime":6249.8,"body":"Even though they didn't give a"},{"startTime":6249.8,"endTime":6251.52,"body":"declaration of incompatibility, that big"},{"startTime":6251.52,"endTime":6253.319,"body":"constitutional decision that they made"},{"startTime":6253.319,"endTime":6257.439,"body":"was still a very big step in terms of of"},{"startTime":6257.439,"endTime":6260.92,"body":"constitutionalising human rights law."},{"startTime":6261.359,"endTime":6262.96,"body":"It was, but it wouldn't it couldn't have"},{"startTime":6262.96,"endTime":6265.64,"body":"been used as a stick by opponents of the"},{"startTime":6265.64,"endTime":6269.76,"body":"Human Rights Act to browbeat and to say"},{"startTime":6269.76,"endTime":6272.079,"body":"demand change and to batter"},{"startTime":6272.079,"endTime":6273.159,"body":"the courts or judges with."},{"startTime":6273.199,"endTime":6276.279,"body":"Well, I mean, what what has happened is"},{"startTime":6276.279,"endTime":6280.68,"body":"that the the the Supreme Court then is a"},{"startTime":6280.68,"endTime":6281.76,"body":"very different Supreme"},{"startTime":6281.76,"endTime":6282.84,"body":"Court than what we have now."},{"startTime":6282.84,"endTime":6284.039,"body":"I mean, there are certain members who are"},{"startTime":6284.039,"endTime":6288.239,"body":"still there, but it and it is and there"},{"startTime":6288.239,"endTime":6290.8,"body":"has been a recognition within the Supreme"},{"startTime":6290.8,"endTime":6294.92,"body":"Court that this is a"},{"startTime":6294.92,"endTime":6296.159,"body":"very hot political issue."},{"startTime":6296.199,"endTime":6300.439,"body":"And you can be sure that the judges are"},{"startTime":6300.439,"endTime":6305.84,"body":"are are being more careful about how far"},{"startTime":6305.84,"endTime":6306.8,"body":"they are prepared to go."},{"startTime":6307.399,"endTime":6309.76,"body":"And I mentioned earlier that that that"},{"startTime":6309.76,"endTime":6311.96,"body":"big constitutional point in Tony's case"},{"startTime":6311.96,"endTime":6314.319,"body":"that we had won has since been overturned"},{"startTime":6314.319,"endTime":6317.279,"body":"only a few years ago in a case called"},{"startTime":6317.279,"endTime":6320.8,"body":"[Christie] Elan-Cane, where when the current"},{"startTime":6320.8,"endTime":6322.84,"body":"Supreme Court in"},{"startTime":6322.84,"endTime":6324.68,"body":"actually a very short judgment."},{"startTime":6325.279,"endTime":6328.119,"body":"And dealt hardly at all with the issue as"},{"startTime":6328.119,"endTime":6330.439,"body":"it was articulated in Nicklinson and simply"},{"startTime":6330.439,"endTime":6333.399,"body":"said it is a heresy, essentially, that"},{"startTime":6333.399,"endTime":6336.92,"body":"the domestic courts can overturn or can"},{"startTime":6336.92,"endTime":6338.8,"body":"grant a declaration of incompatibility in"},{"startTime":6338.8,"endTime":6342.56,"body":"relation to legislation that Strasbourg"},{"startTime":6342.56,"endTime":6344.56,"body":"Court would would leave intact."},{"startTime":6346.159,"endTime":6348.88,"body":"So they have wrote back substantially on"},{"startTime":6348.88,"endTime":6350.72,"body":"that more conservative position."},{"startTime":6351.199,"endTime":6355.279,"body":"And that's why I say that, you know, that"},{"startTime":6355.279,"endTime":6357.319,"body":"point having gone, that was the only way"},{"startTime":6357.319,"endTime":6358.039,"body":"that one could have"},{"startTime":6358.039,"endTime":6360.64,"body":"succeeded on the human rights claim."},{"startTime":6361.399,"endTime":6364.119,"body":"So so because of that, you do you feel"},{"startTime":6364.119,"endTime":6366.68,"body":"there's any chance, then, of movement on"},{"startTime":6366.68,"endTime":6367.64,"body":"this in the near future?"},{"startTime":6368.159,"endTime":6372.079,"body":"Well, I I mentioned earlier that there"},{"startTime":6372.079,"endTime":6375.8,"body":"were two reasons why I didn't see any"},{"startTime":6375.8,"endTime":6378.039,"body":"prospect, certainly anytime soon, of"},{"startTime":6378.039,"endTime":6380.039,"body":"litigation succeeding if"},{"startTime":6380.039,"endTime":6382.039,"body":"Parliament don't pass this bill."},{"startTime":6382.76,"endTime":6385.6,"body":"One is that domestic development in Elan-Cane"},{"startTime":6385.6,"endTime":6388.279,"body":"where that window that was opened"},{"startTime":6388.279,"endTime":6390.159,"body":"up in Tony's case has been slammed shut."},{"startTime":6390.199,"endTime":6392.84,"body":"So if Strasbourg aren't going to"},{"startTime":6392.84,"endTime":6393.88,"body":"intervene, then the"},{"startTime":6393.88,"endTime":6395.159,"body":"domestic courts can't intervene."},{"startTime":6395.92,"endTime":6398.319,"body":"And there's been two significant cases in"},{"startTime":6398.319,"endTime":6402.8,"body":"Strasbourg, one, a Belgian case, another"},{"startTime":6402.8,"endTime":6407.279,"body":"case from Hungary, the Belgian case, the"},{"startTime":6407.279,"endTime":6409.88,"body":"court was being asked to to decide that"},{"startTime":6409.88,"endTime":6411.0,"body":"that a very permissive"},{"startTime":6411.0,"endTime":6413.119,"body":"regime breached Article Two."},{"startTime":6413.199,"endTime":6416.479,"body":"And they said, no, it's it can be very,"},{"startTime":6416.479,"endTime":6418.199,"body":"very permissive, but it's still within"},{"startTime":6418.199,"endTime":6419.239,"body":"the margin of appreciation."},{"startTime":6420.199,"endTime":6423.0,"body":"So there's no breach of the right to life"},{"startTime":6423.0,"endTime":6424.92,"body":"in those in that case."},{"startTime":6425.119,"endTime":6427.159,"body":"So that was a case brought by an opponent"},{"startTime":6427.159,"endTime":6429.239,"body":"of a sister dying saying"},{"startTime":6429.239,"endTime":6430.079,"body":"this is too permissive."},{"startTime":6430.079,"endTime":6431.359,"body":"And they said that's"},{"startTime":6431.359,"endTime":6432.52,"body":"for the domestic courts."},{"startTime":6433.119,"endTime":6434.72,"body":"And then another case, which you'd like"},{"startTime":6434.72,"endTime":6437.279,"body":"is its poll, called Karzai and Hungary,"},{"startTime":6437.56,"endTime":6439.159,"body":"were a very restrictive regime,"},{"startTime":6439.199,"endTime":6440.479,"body":"much more restrictive than our current"},{"startTime":6440.479,"endTime":6442.76,"body":"laws here, was found not"},{"startTime":6442.76,"endTime":6443.72,"body":"to breach Article Eight."},{"startTime":6445.359,"endTime":6447.68,"body":"So the climate has significantly shifted."},{"startTime":6448.6,"endTime":6451.84,"body":"I think, I mean, the legal climate and"},{"startTime":6451.84,"endTime":6452.76,"body":"perhaps the political climate."},{"startTime":6452.76,"endTime":6455.159,"body":"As far as as far as the I mean, it's fair"},{"startTime":6455.159,"endTime":6456.319,"body":"to say that Strasbourg has been"},{"startTime":6456.319,"endTime":6458.039,"body":"consistent, that there's a wide margin of"},{"startTime":6458.039,"endTime":6460.039,"body":"appreciation and they have never found"},{"startTime":6460.039,"endTime":6463.56,"body":"that the laws of a particular country"},{"startTime":6463.56,"endTime":6465.76,"body":"within the Council of Europe, member"},{"startTime":6465.76,"endTime":6467.359,"body":"states, has breached"},{"startTime":6467.359,"endTime":6468.159,"body":"Article Eight or Article Two"},{"startTime":6468.199,"endTime":6470.279,"body":"because of the existence of the law. They"},{"startTime":6470.279,"endTime":6472.479,"body":"found little bits, aspects of it may"},{"startTime":6472.479,"endTime":6476.56,"body":"breach the convention, but never found"},{"startTime":6476.56,"endTime":6478.359,"body":"that the system as a whole is that."},{"startTime":6478.52,"endTime":6480.079,"body":"Strasbourg may have stayed the same, but"},{"startTime":6480.079,"endTime":6481.279,"body":"the domestic courts."},{"startTime":6481.279,"endTime":6485.0,"body":"Domestic courts have definitely been more"},{"startTime":6485.0,"endTime":6486.76,"body":"careful, I think it's right to say."},{"startTime":6486.76,"endTime":6488.76,"body":"And I think that's in the light of a"},{"startTime":6488.76,"endTime":6491.399,"body":"political climate that's changed as well"},{"startTime":6491.399,"endTime":6493.68,"body":"in terms of how positively people,"},{"startTime":6494.6,"endTime":6495.52,"body":"particularly some politicians,"},{"startTime":6495.8,"endTime":6497.159,"body":"see human rights as a result."},{"startTime":6497.199,"endTime":6499.76,"body":"Indeed. So as far as you're concerned,"},{"startTime":6499.76,"endTime":6501.199,"body":"you see no hope of any"},{"startTime":6501.199,"endTime":6504.52,"body":"change in the immediate future."},{"startTime":6505.64,"endTime":6507.319,"body":"Look, they've taken the brick bats"},{"startTime":6507.319,"endTime":6509.319,"body":"already, so there's no"},{"startTime":6509.319,"endTime":6511.079,"body":"reason why they're backed down."},{"startTime":6511.079,"endTime":6514.68,"body":"I mean, look, I have enormous respect for"},{"startTime":6514.68,"endTime":6516.0,"body":"the people who are opposed"},{"startTime":6516.0,"endTime":6517.039,"body":"to this as being the solution."},{"startTime":6517.039,"endTime":6518.84,"body":"to this as being the solution."},{"startTime":6518.84,"endTime":6520.359,"body":"And I don't see there being"},{"startTime":6520.359,"endTime":6523.88,"body":"any solutions which are perfect."},{"startTime":6523.88,"endTime":6523.96,"body":"any solutions which are perfect."},{"startTime":6525.159,"endTime":6528.319,"body":"I think it's incredibly difficult."},{"startTime":6528.319,"endTime":6531.6,"body":"Incredibly difficult. You know, I always"},{"startTime":6531.6,"endTime":6533.279,"body":"found that the most powerful"},{"startTime":6533.279,"endTime":6537.479,"body":"counter-argument was put by Jane"},{"startTime":6537.479,"endTime":6541.359,"body":"Campbell, Baroness Jane Campbell, who I"},{"startTime":6541.359,"endTime":6543.68,"body":"knew, I mean, I know, and I work with."},{"startTime":6544.6,"endTime":6547.64,"body":"But it's fair to say that the human"},{"startTime":6547.64,"endTime":6550.399,"body":"rights that assisted dying issue meant"},{"startTime":6550.399,"endTime":6551.76,"body":"that we didn't really"},{"startTime":6551.76,"endTime":6555.72,"body":"carry on our relationship."},{"startTime":6556.039,"endTime":6560.159,"body":"But her opposition, and lots of disabled"},{"startTime":6560.159,"endTime":6561.199,"body":"people for the last word, not all"},{"startTime":6561.199,"endTime":6563.199,"body":"disabled people, but her opposition is"},{"startTime":6563.199,"endTime":6565.0,"body":"that once you make"},{"startTime":6565.0,"endTime":6567.399,"body":"assisted dying an option,"},{"startTime":6568.6,"endTime":6573.439,"body":"then people will start to expect that"},{"startTime":6573.439,"endTime":6575.64,"body":"that is the option you should choose if"},{"startTime":6575.64,"endTime":6576.92,"body":"you are very severely disabled."},{"startTime":6578.52,"endTime":6581.52,"body":"And that it is selfish of you. I mean,"},{"startTime":6581.52,"endTime":6582.52,"body":"I'm putting it at its highest."},{"startTime":6582.52,"endTime":6583.079,"body":"Yeah, yeah, sure."},{"startTime":6583.319,"endTime":6585.52,"body":"But this is how either people will feel"},{"startTime":6585.52,"endTime":6586.439,"body":"or some people will"},{"startTime":6586.439,"endTime":6587.56,"body":"make them feel, who knows?"},{"startTime":6588.159,"endTime":6591.159,"body":"But that it is selfish to continue to"},{"startTime":6591.159,"endTime":6593.279,"body":"expect society to provide you with"},{"startTime":6593.279,"endTime":6597.279,"body":"support with your disabilities rather"},{"startTime":6597.279,"endTime":6602.68,"body":"than to take the option of ending it all."},{"startTime":6603.199,"endTime":6608.52,"body":"And whether that is realistic or not, I"},{"startTime":6608.52,"endTime":6609.239,"body":"can see that it is a"},{"startTime":6609.239,"endTime":6611.56,"body":"realistic fear that people will have."},{"startTime":6612.56,"endTime":6618.079,"body":"And when resources are very tight, when"},{"startTime":6618.079,"endTime":6619.92,"body":"budgets are being squeezed, when people"},{"startTime":6619.92,"endTime":6626.159,"body":"are being told that you can have a carer"},{"startTime":6626.159,"endTime":6629.359,"body":"for one hour a week, even though you need"},{"startTime":6629.359,"endTime":6631.88,"body":"one for eight hours a day,"},{"startTime":6632.56,"endTime":6635.319,"body":"then those kind of considerations start"},{"startTime":6635.319,"endTime":6637.439,"body":"to be more pressing."},{"startTime":6637.8,"endTime":6640.439,"body":"So I don't see the law changing through"},{"startTime":6640.439,"endTime":6642.56,"body":"litigation any time soon."},{"startTime":6645.039,"endTime":6648.319,"body":"And I mean, for my part, I think it's"},{"startTime":6648.319,"endTime":6650.68,"body":"right to say that I said to you earlier"},{"startTime":6650.68,"endTime":6653.079,"body":"that I am a, I took"},{"startTime":6653.079,"endTime":6654.079,"body":"this case as a barrister."},{"startTime":6654.399,"endTime":6657.199,"body":"I'm not a campaigner. I don't seek to"},{"startTime":6657.199,"endTime":6658.56,"body":"campaign on this issue."},{"startTime":6659.479,"endTime":6660.8,"body":"I would be very disappointed if"},{"startTime":6660.8,"endTime":6661.68,"body":"Parliament were to"},{"startTime":6661.68,"endTime":6662.72,"body":"pass up this opportunity."},{"startTime":6665.199,"endTime":6669.52,"body":"And I still think that it will, one way"},{"startTime":6669.52,"endTime":6672.319,"body":"or another, they will find a way, whether"},{"startTime":6672.319,"endTime":6673.72,"body":"it's through the use of the Parliament"},{"startTime":6673.72,"endTime":6676.76,"body":"Act or another bill comes back."},{"startTime":6677.439,"endTime":6678.479,"body":"Well."},{"startTime":6679.0,"endTime":6685.199,"body":"But if they don't, yeah, I can't see at"},{"startTime":6685.199,"endTime":6686.56,"body":"least that argument succeeding."},{"startTime":6686.6,"endTime":6689.479,"body":"Who knows? Maybe somebody will dust down"},{"startTime":6689.479,"endTime":6691.079,"body":"my necessity arguments"},{"startTime":6691.079,"endTime":6694.159,"body":"and they'll try those."},{"startTime":6694.159,"endTime":6695.68,"body":"But I don't think I'm going"},{"startTime":6695.68,"endTime":6696.96,"body":"to be arguing this case again."},{"startTime":6696.96,"endTime":6697.439,"body":"Meanwhile, no."},{"startTime":6697.88,"endTime":6699.399,"body":"I feel like I've I feel like I carried"},{"startTime":6699.399,"endTime":6702.159,"body":"that. I carried that for a long time."},{"startTime":6702.159,"endTime":6705.96,"body":"And it was an honour to run those cases,"},{"startTime":6706.239,"endTime":6707.159,"body":"an absolute honour to work"},{"startTime":6707.159,"endTime":6708.199,"body":"with those amazing people."},{"startTime":6709.159,"endTime":6710.199,"body":"But I don't think"},{"startTime":6710.199,"endTime":6711.159,"body":"I'll run that case again."},{"startTime":6711.6,"endTime":6713.92,"body":"And of course, far too late for people"},{"startTime":6713.92,"endTime":6715.159,"body":"like Tony Nicklinson and"},{"startTime":6715.159,"endTime":6717.199,"body":"no doubt many others since."},{"startTime":6718.8,"endTime":6721.92,"body":"Yeah. I mean, you know, the fact is that"},{"startTime":6721.92,"endTime":6724.439,"body":"the current law does leave people like"},{"startTime":6724.439,"endTime":6729.56,"body":"Tony in an invidious, awful position"},{"startTime":6729.56,"endTime":6734.439,"body":"where they're either forced to live in in"},{"startTime":6734.439,"endTime":6737.359,"body":"circumstances of unbearable suffering or"},{"startTime":6737.359,"endTime":6739.72,"body":"if they do, if they are well"},{"startTime":6739.72,"endTime":6740.56,"body":"enough to be able to travel."},{"startTime":6740.6,"endTime":6743.0,"body":"Usually they'll have to travel to"},{"startTime":6743.0,"endTime":6744.039,"body":"somewhere where they can take their own"},{"startTime":6744.039,"endTime":6745.039,"body":"life earlier than they"},{"startTime":6745.039,"endTime":6746.0,"body":"perhaps might have done."},{"startTime":6746.0,"endTime":6748.319,"body":"So they they might give up precious what"},{"startTime":6748.319,"endTime":6750.159,"body":"might otherwise have been precious months"},{"startTime":6750.159,"endTime":6752.56,"body":"of their life that they would have been"},{"startTime":6752.56,"endTime":6755.319,"body":"able to to have if they'd been able to"},{"startTime":6755.319,"endTime":6757.399,"body":"end their own life here."},{"startTime":6757.8,"endTime":6759.6,"body":"So, yeah, I mean, the"},{"startTime":6759.6,"endTime":6763.72,"body":"issue is not going to go away."},{"startTime":6764.159,"endTime":6766.279,"body":"Paul Bowen KC practises"},{"startTime":6766.279,"endTime":6767.8,"body":"from Brick Court Chambers."},{"startTime":6768.76,"endTime":6771.0,"body":"His human rights and public law practice"},{"startTime":6771.0,"endTime":6772.64,"body":"now includes regulatory"},{"startTime":6772.64,"endTime":6774.72,"body":"and financial services work."},{"startTime":6775.319,"endTime":6776.88,"body":"He also sits as a"},{"startTime":6776.88,"endTime":6778.039,"body":"deputy High Court judge."},{"startTime":6779.439,"endTime":6781.64,"body":"This episode is dedicated to"},{"startTime":6781.64,"endTime":6783.119,"body":"the memory of Tony Nicklinson."},{"startTime":6798.279,"endTime":6801.239,"body":"This podcast was brought to you"},{"startTime":6798.279,"endTime":6801.239,"body":"by the University of Law."},{"startTime":6801.96,"endTime":6805.079,"body":"Subscribe now to make sure you don't"},{"startTime":6801.96,"endTime":6805.079,"body":"miss the next episode."}]}