Episode 71 - Neurospicy 2026: Live at The Round

Recorded live at The Round on March 19th, Neurospicy 2026: Accessibility in the Arts, is a special live podcast diving into what genuine inclusion looks like for neurodivergent artists, audiences, and creative communities.

I was joined by pianist and composer Nat Bartsch, whose reflections on sensory experience, performance, and neurodivergent creativity brought depth and warmth to the room. We also spoke to Arty Owens, creative director at Arts Access Victoria, whose leadership continues to shape a more accessible and equitable arts sector.

Hosted at The Round, a venue committed to creating welcoming, accessible environments, this conversation blends music, lived experience, humour, and honest discussion about what needs to change and what’s already working.

This was a candid and fun conversation for anyone invested in neurodivergent creativity and the evolution of accessible arts spaces.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_09 0:00

Well, welcome to my Party Poopers and all those who may or may not become a Party Pooper themselves. Welcome to Episode 71, which is finally the live podcast event called Neurospicy 2026. Now we did a 2025. However, the audio I'm still working through, it's uh it's a it's turned out a little bit difficult to to edit. Uh I'll keep trying, but in this one it's just uh wonderful. They did such a beautiful job of the round in another morning. And uh we had uh a spectacular event with the stalls and guests. And uh look, I was just so happy with it as as well were from what I hear people who attended as well. So this is an event that we put together a live podcast where we talked about uh accessibility in the arts, and of course this this sort of conversation goes well beyond the arts. It goes to pretty much every facet of uh a neurodivergent person's life. And no matter where they're working or where they're going to shop, it doesn't matter. So we spoke to the amazing Nat Barsh, who is a high school jazz pianist, composer who releases the most beautiful music, which you can find everywhere. And I also spoke to Artie from Arts Access Victoria, which as you will hear in the recording, I found it very hard to say quicker. Arts Access Victor Victoria, I can't do it now. I'm not even gonna try again. It was too hard. So we had a lovely uh chat uh talking about various aspects of the topic, and uh we had Nat uh play a piece at the start and a song that I wrote for my daughter at the end, which was accompanied by uh again Nat and the wonderful Brooke Prendergast who played the French horn, and it was just such I love the instrument so much, I was so happy that she was able to come and play for us. So there you go, and here it is. It goes longer than the usual one because it's an event. So I hope you enjoy, and uh let's get on with it. Please join me in welcoming the instrument composer, Matt Bash.

SPEAKER_03 6:11

Welcome to Neurospicy 2026. They warn you about the second album Curse, but we're here to deliver what Carol King did on Tapestry, a sophomore effort that will hopefully make you feel the earth move.

SPEAKER_09 6:24

Eloise, that's a that's a lot of pressure you're putting me under. You didn't have to say that.

SPEAKER_03 6:28

Deal dad, before we get started, a few housekeeping notes. Fidgets are available for anyone who needs them. There is a quiet location available if you need a break. The door will stay open throughout the event. This is a safe space, and our staff are here to support you in any way you need.

SPEAKER_09 6:46

Hello everyone. Welcome. Welcome to Neurospicy. I'm Dan. How are you? Can you put that down? Nice to see you all. So, everyone, welcome to Neurospicy. Um, I've learned a great deal about brevity last time. With the intro, I'm trying to keep it a little bit less than it was last time. So happy for you all to be here on the live show. Um, I'm Dan, I'm host of Late to the Party Podcast. Um, I'm also a songwriter who got diagnosed at 48. And it's sort of solved the puzzle been carrying since I first picked up a guitar. I wasn't broken, untalented, or late. I was already HD and a lot of other things. And understanding that didn't just explain the struggle, it unlocked the part of me that gets to be here with you tonight. So yay! And now what are we doing here? Here we go. Accessibility in the arts. That's the big question. So we're getting we're here to support uh neurodivergent people in the arts to create, participate, and lead. And we'll be keeping in mind these three things, um, because this is the sort of the the audience that will be here will be amongst these three the organizer, the artist, and the audience. What did I come up with that going on? Was oh. Oh next slide, please. Okay. Definitions. This is a boring bit, so I thought I'd play for you while uh while you read it. Because it's just definitions, you know. Otherwise I've got nothing else to do with my time, so I'm gonna come over here and play. Something nice and calm while you read. Are we done? Thank you. Thank you. You can clap me. That was really embarrassing. Next slide, please. Okay, I'm gonna tell you who's gonna be here tonight. So we're starting with uh this is Artie from Arts Access Victoria, and uh she's basically the creative producer and advocate. Um, Arts Access Victoria is the big body for arts and disability in Victoria, a disability-led organisation championing cultural equity and increasing the participation of deaf and disabled people across creative industries. And also Nat Barsh, as you just saw, a celebrated Melbourne composer whose gentle meditative music blends neoclassical and jazz influences and proudly advocates for neurodivergent artists. Her lullaby projects and chamber works have earned international recognition. So I'd like to welcome on to the couch Nat and Ati. Hello to the both of you. Now, I'd mentioned this to Natanati uh before, if uh because we've got a lot to go through, and you know, we've only got like X amount of time. So I said if uh you know if the if the the question the answers to the questions are maybe going a little bit a little bit too long, I've got this little prop for me. This is my uh voice of the ocean that I won on Princess Cruises. And uh now I I won it singing a Beatles song, and that was a few years ago, but they've not come back to me and said that I'm no longer voice of the ocean. So I'm assuming I'm not just the voice of the ocean, I'm voice of all the oceans. Okay, so what I'm gonna do is I'm just gonna slowly raise this up if we've moved the answers on a little bit. Okay. We may not need to use it. Okay. On to the questions. I'm gonna start with you, Artie. Can you tell us about your role at Arts Essex Victoria and what drives your passion for accessibility in the arts?

SPEAKER_05 10:50

Hello everyone. Um, my name's Artie. I am a queer and disabled um arts worker and artist. Um I'm freshly um off the boat for diagnosis. I don't know. I've recently been on a cruise and it was hell, so um just because I wasn't there singing. I know. Gosh. Um, but I'm a creative producer at Arts Access Victoria. Um my current role is I coordinate um NDIS art studios and showcase work. This has included exhibitions, print, video work, panels, live music, uh so many things. Um but I also run programs for young people. So um high schools and TAFES arts programs, professional development, and um paid internships.

SPEAKER_09 11:41

There's a lot. I went onto the on the website, there's just so much stuff going on. Yeah, too much. That's unbelievable. And some of it's ongoing and some of it's sort of like one-offs. Is that how it all sort of works?

SPEAKER_05 11:49

Funding dependent.

SPEAKER_09 11:54

I I want to get into the idea where things currently stand as far as like accessibility. Can you uh tell us like how well we understand and use accessibility for venues at the moment, just as a sort of benchmark for the discussion?

SPEAKER_05 12:09

I I feel like um not to brown nose, but places like this, like council-run places, um, you know, are very conscious about putting those access features in, um, you know, because this is a new building. Um whereas your old school pubs and clubs are just not there yet. And, you know, they have their own financial barriers too. And um, you know, I feel like there should be support in making those changes in their venues actually. Um but you know, there are plenty of is that me or is that you? I think it's you, Donald.

SPEAKER_09 12:48

Is it me?

SPEAKER_05 12:48

Oh come on, Don. Well, it's it's a touch of my face.

SPEAKER_09 12:54

That's alright. I'll just I'll just I'll I'll do this.

SPEAKER_05 12:58

Yes. Sing sing for me, Ariel. Yes. Um but there is a lot of there's a lot of work to do around education and um venues feeling comfortable, but also venues just being really upfront about their access. Um I feel like there's a hesitation to say that they have steps, but that's very useful information. Um so even if you don't have the access in a venue, you should put that information in anyway. Um but yeah, long ways to go. Would you say steps?

SPEAKER_09 13:32

Steps. Steps, I'll talk about steps. What I was thinking about on one of the events that I saw that you had, was these awesome icons which go exactly down to in more detail than I've ever seen before.

SPEAKER_05 13:42

Yeah, so the uh the access symbols, you can download them and yeah, you can use those for a yeah.

SPEAKER_09 13:48

What are some of the ones? I can't I'm trying to remember what they're doing.

SPEAKER_05 13:50

There's like closed captions, accessible toilets, you know, um uh support, animals welcome. There's so many. But yeah, they're very handy as well, like very quick information.

SPEAKER_09 14:01

They're fantastic. And I as I said I haven't seen that really. Have you used any of that?

SPEAKER_04 14:07

Um no, I haven't used any of the icons before.

SPEAKER_09 14:09

No. With with your sort of things, like um obviously you sort of uh did you would you say you fell into doing sort of advocacy advocacy and looking at accessibility um because essentially you have you had to?

SPEAKER_04 14:23

Yeah, I would say so. I I've been working and uh performing my original music um and recording and stuff for nearly 18 years. Um in fact the last time I was in this building was my um school production in 2001. I was uh the scarecrow in the wizard of us. And um yeah, I I suppose I f I I I came to it firstly by creating music that that's yeah, trying to be quite meditative and soothing, and I made an album of lullabies that was um kind of responding to that need that parents often have to try and hear good quality music when they've got young children and created um a show that I could perform for parents and babies together, and uh that just um filled up my cup so much. And then over those years was when I started to discover my own disabilities, and I'm also one of those late-diagnosed autistic ADHD um women who also is slowly acquiring more and more acronyms along the way. And um I realized that probably the best thing I could do to be authentic to myself in my music was to embed the story of my neurodiversity. But also it felt like a really wonderful next frontier because I've been doing family performances, and it always used to bug me that relaxed performances were often kind of like an add-on to a concert season. It's often 11 o'clock on a Tuesday, and I don't know if they've noticed, but neurodivergent and disabled people can have jobs and study and sometimes like to go out in the evenings or the weekends. So it it always sort of irked me that it seemed to often be an afterthought.

SPEAKER_08 16:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 16:14

And so I thought, what would it be like to create a project where I could be embedding um sensory adjustments and things into the music itself and into the performance? And so it's sort of like an artistic response to making a relaxed performance. Um and that's how I ended up thinking about it, and along the way, decided to do some neurodivergent artist meetups as well, and trying to bring people in the music industry who are walking a very similar path to me together. I call it a social event for people that kind of hate social events.

SPEAKER_09 16:49

Well, what are some of the like the barriers that you came across that sort of were the biggest triggers for you? What were the things that really Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:57

Well, I suppose when I say I've been in the industry for 18 years, that's not accounting for all the times where I had to have an enormous break. I quit music multiple times because of long periods of burnout and depression. Um, because I didn't know who I was, I didn't know how to meet my needs at a sensory level, at a cognitive level, at a social level. Um, I was trying to kind of function as a woman in the music industry, which usually means you feel a lot of pressure to be extra good at what you do in order to be taken seriously. So I was sort of operating at a capacity that I couldn't keep up with, and I would always end up landing in trouble. Um and yeah, I I think over time I've realized that it's I I guess I see music like a religion now, where it's like it's always within me. But you know, like if I was Christian, perhaps sometimes you go to mass three times a week, and other times it's Christmas and Easter, and other times you might have a break from attending church at all. And for me, you know, being a musician is a bit like my faith. And it's so through my life I know that there's going to be periods where I'm working too hard, and periods where maybe I'm unwell or I've got an injury or I'm a mother and I've got other things to do, and and that's okay too. And I think being kind to yourself about the fact that it's actually a lifetime's journey being an artist, that it's not about trying to make make yourself rich and famous in the first five years. Um capitalism ruins art, yeah. It really does. But so that I think that really um was an important part of the process for me. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 18:41

I saw you before doing this. Like how many people go to deals and stuff that hate the city.

SPEAKER_05 18:46

This is just gay clapping, don't worry about it. Gay clapping is yeah. Oh, that's so nice. Yes, yeah, very bad.

SPEAKER_09 18:54

My daughter's been introducing me to these these videos of these guys who who are doing uh some poetry. Where are you, Elloes? You here or you're uh hiding behind? Oh, it doesn't matter. Um so yeah, these little videos where they're doing uh uh poems and they only do this. They say you're not let a clap. It's just this.

SPEAKER_05 19:13

But it's also stimming, but uh I'm not applauding, I'm stimming. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can be both. Yeah, I just I wanted to uh add that the when you don't know yourself, there's so much internalized shame. And when you start to unpack that, you can really sort of go at your own pace. So congratulations, well done.

SPEAKER_04 19:34

Oh, thank you. And to you, and congratulations to everybody else out there who might be finally discovering your true selves as well. It's um I always say congratulations.

SPEAKER_06 19:44

Yeah, I do too.

SPEAKER_04 19:45

When someone tells me that they've received a diagnosis of something. Um maybe not cancer, but for lack of I mean, specifically autism, ADHD, uh, and other related neurodivergent conditions.

SPEAKER_09 19:59

I feel my legs.

SPEAKER_07 20:01

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 20:03

Wonderful. Now I wanted to talk a little bit about influences um and being a musician who is you know uh influential across the board in our culture. Um I just wonder though, talking about these sorts of things, if neurodivergent artists like their impact has been limiting them from being able to have full free expression. Do you know what I'm saying? Like uh do they have to fit into the environments, do they have to conform? Which means they're not actually getting to express exactly the way they wish they were, you know?

SPEAKER_04 20:35

I my perspective on the music industry is it's probably one of the few industries where neurodivergent people can be themselves a little bit more probably than normal. And that's uh often why a lot of us uh can go so far into our careers before we even really consider this stuff because we're constantly surrounded by uh neurodivergent traits. I don't know what the the current prevalence rates have are in the music industry um in terms of uh neurodiversity. Um but I do know um in my experience that it's almost like being a professional musician, you're required to cultivate neurodivergent traits in order to succeed, but like hyper focus and practice and attention to detail, um entrepreneurial thinking and creative ideas and all of that stuff. So in a way, you might be able to um be a little bit more authentic to yourself than if you were, say, uh in a bank job. I mean, look at me. But I I think um the other challenge is just that it's an industry that's deeply unregulated and very competitive and um fragmented, it's a it's a gig economy. So it means that everybody actually is kind of presenting a version of themselves to the world all the time. I mean, when you're on stage or perform. Like I I it would be um not very good for me to be actually my true self on social media or on stage to strangers that I don't know. And the challenge is how do you remain how do you remain true to who you want to be in public um and have your needs met in the workplace? Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 22:25

What about when you're not on stage? That's uh I I think about that sort of thing. You think of all these movies we see with the Elvises and Johnny Cashers and so forth, where when they're not actually up on stage, they they struggle with life, they struggle with you know, and they're popping things and they weren't that that's what they would feel, you know. It's those aspects that are.

SPEAKER_04 22:43

Absolutely. I I I did a speech a couple of years ago um for the Australian Music Centre, which is like the peak body for um classical composers and jazz composers, and they I invite someone to do a speech, and I I was reflecting on neurodiversity in the industry, and I thought about um the concept of the diva, and and those, you know, those those well-worn tropes like the bowl of green MMs, things like that. Yeah, and then I thought, well, how is actually that different to the all-green vegetable risotto I like to cook after a show? It's just that someone else is making the bowl of green MMs. And we view a lot of those things um in the world of famous people through that lens of um being you know demanding and self-absorbed and difficult. But actually, it could be it could that could be a really well um a really needed um kind of repetit it could be the one repetitious thing when you're on tour and you walk into a venue you've never been in, you've never seen anything, you've exhausted, totally dysregulated, you're autistic, and you need in your green room to have fresh socks and a bowl of green MMs and you know a teddy and tantrums might be meltdowns.

SPEAKER_05 23:58

Exactly. You know, overstimulated.

SPEAKER_09 24:01

Yeah, you must have to deal with this. You must uh do you talk to people and give them advice, not just the people who are performing, but also the the venue organizers and so forth as well.

SPEAKER_05 24:11

We we do partner with venues and um organizations and upskill and and build their confidence. We also have a training team that that do sort of cultural awareness and practical things as well. Um, but we also encourage artists to develop an access writer, so just like clearly laid out information about your access needs, um, which I've been helping people with years, but actually haven't done one for myself. So um, you know, classic. Yeah. Um I also I wanted to quickly add that there's a production happening, um, like a tech rehearsal, and we were trying to explain what Neurodivergent was, and the guy was like, Oh, so theater kids were like, Yeah, pretty much.

SPEAKER_09 25:01

So the the experience for those for the people you're actually helping, how many, how many? So that's great. You can actually here's here's my needs, but would would you do that if you haven't been asked?

SPEAKER_05 25:14

Um, yes, you would you would send that in regardless if they ask for access writer or not. Um if you feel confident. Exactly, yeah. It's really depending on on what you feel, um, because it's very valid if you don't feel comfortable not to send that. Oh, it's just it blows my mind.

SPEAKER_09 25:30

Yeah there was a recent study that they're talking about from the workplace point of view where um a lot of these organizations simply won't even consider someone who's neurodivergent. You know, it's just and so that's why I guess some people would feel reticent to I know a lot of neurodivergent people at work and so forth, and I had to go through that journey for as the first person to try and do that in my work. And it wasn't easy. They they even actually made they wanted to go and speak to my psychologist, you know, for for about 30 minutes.

SPEAKER_04 26:01

That's deeply inappropriate.

SPEAKER_09 26:02

Incredibly inappropriate because they didn't believe me. They they thought, um, because of I mean, shit, I'll be masking for you know, at that point, that's like a fair work issue. I got pretty good at it, you know. Yeah and they didn't believe me there though. He just said, Oh, well, okay, we'll we'll accept it, but you must be the the great the greatest actor I've I've ever met, you know.

SPEAKER_04 26:21

That's like yes.

SPEAKER_09 26:22

Which I am but that's a beside the point.

SPEAKER_04 26:24

I think that that that thing about masking is you know, a lot of people in the music industry the reason why they're able to, you know, sort of hide in plain sight is because we are trained to be performers, you know. We're we're able to kind of always adapt what we're doing to for an audience, be that at a party or on stage. And and yeah, so it is quite hard to reach out to a venue, particularly for late diagnosed people who might have already been in the industry and had all these industry connections. It's very hard to go and and share you know an access writer with people that have seen the masking version of yourself for a decade and then you say, by the way, I have these needs. And yeah, it would be quite unbelievable, I think, a lot of the time. Because you look so sensitive.

SPEAKER_05 27:12

There's also very positive experiences, but maybe I'm biased because I work with a lot of deaf and dissential people and people who are like really keen. So, like again, not to brown nose but cancels also. Um, so there is that aspect of it feels like doors closing, but doors do open as well. Yeah. Um, and it is it's always worth putting yourself out there. Um but yeah, very valid if you don't feel like it.

SPEAKER_09 27:39

It's a very boring thing to do. It really is, you know. Part of that, I suppose, is beginning some of the training you would do to actually give those people the sense of confidence to be able to do that. You're not the first person who's done this, it's you know, it's okay. Um I I do something on the podcast called uh Autistic Moments, which is often an embarrassing story of mine, where I've just done something ridiculously stupid. And um uh yeah, but what one of the people is actually here tonight, and I'm not I'm not going you can find it on my podcast because I'm not gonna repeat what it what happened. Oh my god. But I just wanted to see if either of you had like an autistic moment of any kind.

SPEAKER_04 28:19

Uh probably my best one is um I met Brian Eno once. Oh my god. Um when I say I met him, uh we were both walking out of the same concert at the opera house, and he was in the row next to me. And um I said hello, and then he said, Are you coming to my talk? Because it was at a festival, and I said, No, I've got something on because I was just being honest, like I always am. And he was like, Oh. And then we just walked in silence in parallel out of the theater. Yeah, that's that's pretty that's one of my most momentous autistic moments.

SPEAKER_09 29:01

Oh god. Have you got can you think of any?

SPEAKER_05 29:04

Uh I mean, oh, so many just today alone. Um but uh uh Uncle who's dead now, thank god. Um he asked me what I was doing, and I was like, Oh, I'm studying the arts, and he's like, Oh, what are you gonna do with that? And I thought that was a very sincere question. And I was like, nothing. I'm gonna keep studying and not do anything. And apparently um all my aunties were like, this is the best moment ever. And I was just tralala, had no idea until later um that I had really shut this man down.

SPEAKER_09 29:37

Now I um want to talk a little bit about distractions, and I just wanted to know if um how b you both would deal with any kind of distraction that might show up.

SPEAKER_04 29:47

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_09 29:51

Oh hang on it.

SPEAKER_05 29:57

Um, I might be able to do that.

SPEAKER_07 30:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 30:15

Um, well, yeah, I handled some distractions better than others. That was a good one.

SPEAKER_09 30:21

That was my funny one, by the way. Let's give him a little quick, oh quick, what's give them? You can have the blue. That's fine. You can keep walking, Henry. Uh now I wanted to talk about uh I've been listening to all your albums like for a couple of months now. When I'm working and whenever, like, anyway, it's they're just I just love them. Um now I learned something recently about uh something called Air Fantasia, which is not being able to form mental images in my head. So if someone asks me to picture an apple in my head, I I can't do that. I thought that was just everyone's experience. I I can conceptualize the idea of an apple, but I can't. Thank you. Um yeah, I I I can't I can't do that. Um by the way, Aphantasia is a great name for a band. Don't you reckon? It's an awful name. So for when I'm when I'm listening to your music, um uh my response to listening to your music is that I find a matching mood. So when I make playlists and so forth, I'm doing it based on mood, not by genre. So it's a correct answer. Because that's the correct answer. Um when com so when you're composing, what are you experiencing in your head? Like and uh do you think it's like a neurodivergent thing that you're doing?

SPEAKER_04 31:39

Um I guess I haven't been in anybody else's head when they're composing to know what is uniquely neurodivergent about my process compared to someone else. But I guess I do think that there are some neurodivergent traits of mine that are the reason why my music has certain qualities. Um I think I get you know really big feelings, and so I write very meditative music as a way of kind of regulating my emotions and trying to process big feelings, um, and you know, I have a very strong sense of justice, um, which sometimes I sort of try and focus in on one issue, global issue at a time, because otherwise it's just all too much. And so I will write pieces that respond to something that we might be collectively experiencing, um, and uh yeah, that those sorts of things. I guess, and also just that need to be authentic. You know, I I can't write a piece of music that's just about something. Oh, that's there's the trophy. Um that's the end of my that's the end of my statement.

SPEAKER_09 32:54

I wanted to give Adi a chance to have the same.

SPEAKER_04 32:58

Yeah, I'm hopeless at figuring out how long I've been.

SPEAKER_05 33:02

Yeah. I mean, when I did write music, it was more of um is it echolelio, that sort of thing, of just like something that's repetitive that I have to come you know feel compelled to to keep going with. Like an earworm? Yeah, like an earworm. And also just something if I find it a bit funny, I will take it to the extreme. Extreme. But uh I think in terms of my writing process in general, it's sort of um I again sort of like unpacking what um writing should look like and what we should be doing as a writers, is like, oh, you should be writing a thousand words a day and waking up at the cracker door and that sort of thing, and being like, no, it's actually okay if I write a sentence a month. Yes. Um and you know, it's okay if a lot of the writing process is just in the head until it it you know it can be um put on the page. That takes time, yeah. Um but I can picture the apple, not to brag.

SPEAKER_09 34:10

Lucky you. I want to get a little practical now, um, because we've been you know in our own head spaces. Um but I'm I'm thinking for uh for venues organizations like it, it's it's across the board. This is not just an arts thing, it's it's everywhere, absolutely everywhere. I'm trying to think, have you got any like very practical sort of things that organizations and wherever can start with that's not so overwhelming?

SPEAKER_05 34:37

Um I I think uh yeah, yeah, so so this is a common question, but sometimes I get overwhelmed because there are so many things to start with as well. But I do think going back to the just the information and having that information really clear is a really good way to start because then you can we've when you have that information, you can start talking to community as well. So um, you know, doing that heavy lifting for people so they don't have to call you up and be like, okay, can I come to this place? Um so then they can make that decision for themselves, or if they need to bring their own accommodations as well. So I think just having that information there is a really good place to start. Um and even you know, really simple things like having fidget toys around or a quiet space, or I think is a good way to start as well. Um, but yeah, it's again better to try than not try at all. Yeah, yeah, you know, even if you don't get it right.

SPEAKER_09 35:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 35:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 35:43

Now I've got a question that was sent to us. Anthony, are you here? You are? Hello. How are you doing? Hi, Anthony. Um, you're on. Uh it's a question that uh Anthony sent me is basically uh in industries like the arts where short-term contracts are common, how do we create systems that genuinely protect neurodivergent workers from subtle or unspoken discrimination, which is kind of what I was leading into, um, especially when the non-renewal of a contract can mask the consequences of asking for accommodations?

SPEAKER_05 36:18

Um hi Anthony, I really feel this question very deeply, but I also can't give you a very satisfying answer. Um, in that I think that, you know, I think the unpredictable employment is terrible for all artists, but there is the added layer of being seen as difficult or being perceived as difficult, um, which can hold us back. And I've been, I've I've felt that, and I do feel that I'm quite privileged now working with so many um you know disabled people that it's just the norm. But I also I wanted to sort of really highlight that you're not alone in feeling this way, and you're not alone in doing the work, and we have a full history of neurodivergent people, of deaf people, of disabled people um pushing and um you know making their access known. Um and there are some amazing, and you know, I hesitate sometimes because I'm like allies. Do they exist? They do. Um, and they in organizations that are doing incredible work. Um I'd say, I mean, I'm I'm curious about what you guys think too. Um, because this question did sort of keep me up at night, because I'm like, I'm like, I can't give you a really satisfying answer aside from we're all working on it and we're all trying our best, and it's okay if you don't feel comfortable. Um and you know, I think the best advice I was given um as a freelancer and all this stuff is that as long as you're not a huge asshole and you you get you do an adequate job, people don't care and they will just keep hiring you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 38:08

Well, yeah, you this is what you do. This is you've been going through this process too, and like surely you experiences like you, like this, can can maybe spread around. Then there'll be more or more examples like this where that I actually that wasn't that hard, was it?

SPEAKER_04 38:22

Yeah, I think I think um you you tapped on something that is also I think an issue often for women in the industry, um people of colour, First Nations people, or you know, there's all so many different um ways that people can be discriminated against in any workplace, but in the arts, because it's so hard because you can always just because music is so subjective, how do you know that they just don't prefer the piano playing style of the next pianist, even though there's conscious or unconscious bias against me and my disability? So it's it's it's almost impossible to do. Um my glimmer of hope to offer would be that um I think if the more your access needs are able to be met, the um the more it's it tends to filter out the ares in the industry because you know the people that are that are willing to hear that and um and make no issue of it at all and and continue to employ you, they're actually the people you want to work for. And um the same goes for when you're self-producing things and and the you know I deliberately continue to work with musicians on stage that make me feel safe and loved and love me for who I am. Um they might not be the best violin player in the entire country, they're probably still in the top 20, and I'm still deeply enjoying playing their music, but I choose them because of the way that I feel feel supported. So I think over time, like it's scary at first and it might be heartbreaking along the way when something doesn't work out. Is it because of your piano playing or is it because of your neurodiversity? You don't know. But over time, available if you want.

SPEAKER_09 40:16

You know, I didn't want to embarrass you with my own skills, you know. Like excuse me, the only piano player you can get.

SPEAKER_04 40:21

But yeah, I think over time you can sort of start to create the world that you want it to be, even though that's a scary first step.

SPEAKER_09 40:29

Tell us about that then. Tell us about how you plan your events, because I think that's a really it's important that we we capture this.

SPEAKER_04 40:35

Well, I guess that's just like every other musician where you try and book a gig somewhere, and then you have to try and tell people about it and get them to come and rehearse the music, and and um probably the only thing that's different now is reaching this career stage um where that becomes so repetitious, like you over time that becomes a routine. It's not dysregulating anymore to rock up at a venue that I don't know and sound check and play a gig, or it's not dysregulating to meet strangers afterwards and be at a merch table signing CDs. Um, so there are parts of it that become um more familiar, yeah. Um, and so I actually my access rider um for events and performances and stuff is actually often quite small because it's a it's I I'm in my special interest zone, I'm in my happy place. Um, as long as I'm able to elevate my feet and I've got um usually a tool manager to help with some of the more like logistical things, I'm okay.

SPEAKER_05 41:40

So it sounds like a bit of exposure therapy, sort of and uh building up the familiarity with the process and things like that.

SPEAKER_04 41:47

Yeah, yeah, but and cultivating a sense of routine, yeah, yeah. You know, and when you play original music, it means that a lot of your performances are the same. Whereas, say you were a classical musician, every time you played with the MSO, it's a different program, so there is something different every time. Um, but in my case, I have so much agency, especially as a solo artist. You know, I could like forget half my song and just improvise something else and be like, deal with it, everybody. It's my song. So, yeah, that's the way I solve it.

SPEAKER_09 42:19

Yeah, how how how are your gigs different then to someone else who's doing a similar style of music or whatever? Like, how how is it different for an audience perspective? Do you mean because of being a neurodivergent person or you mean just- No, more for that experience of of of the the listener? Um, what are they experiencing that's that's different?

SPEAKER_04 42:37

Ah, well, I guess in classical music, um, you know, pieces are often fully notated and every time they're performed the same. But I come from the jazz scene originally, so I have improvisation skills and I like to weave that into my pieces, even though they are more classical in style, and I use a lot of ambient effects, and I sometimes play with jazz musicians. Um, and so it does mean that every show is different. Um, you'll never hear me play the same piece twice the same way.

SPEAKER_09 43:09

Um you're preparing people for the experience as well, so you're ahead of time, similar to what we've done here. Yeah, so you're preparing people, here's what you can expect.

SPEAKER_04 43:19

Yeah, so if I'm doing a relaxed performance, I will have a social story or visual story that includes what pieces I'm gonna play, what my background projections will look like, what the pieces um kind of what each of the quality of the different pieces, like is it does it start with a single note, or is it faster or slower, or do I use my effects pedal or and things like that? Um, and that really helps, but it does buck box me in a bit more. Sometimes I'm like, oh, I might play this other piece, and I'll be like, Oh no, it wasn't on the visual story, I shouldn't do that. But um, yeah, somewhere in there there's a nice balance.

SPEAKER_09 43:56

Okay. For for venues, uh, I talked about some. The practical side of things, but what about that next step? Uh and you've got people saying, Well, hang on, how much is this gonna cost me? You know, that's I think that's sort of that next thing is about that finding that balance, and um it's a fair question that they would ask, but how how do we respond to that?

SPEAKER_05 44:18

Um what we usually advise is um is to budget at the beginning, and I think you know, as you said, often access is an afterthought um and it's not embedded and it's not uh considered thing. So yes, so when you apply for funding um or when you um you know develop a program to have that access budgeted in at the beginning. Um and I like to say if I don't have access budget, I can't put on a show. Um you know, it's just not a show that I'm willing to put on. Um but also I I always go back to the information part as well of um of just having that up front so people can decide for themselves. Um, you know, if if someone does want yeah, yeah, I think that's the best thing is to include it at the beginning and in funding applications and things like that.

SPEAKER_09 45:23

So leaning on from that, so um what sort of the sort of systemic changes do you think we're gonna need to sort of get into the art sector and everywhere else, I guess. Um like I say, how do you see like the next 10 years looking?

SPEAKER_05 45:41

I I sometimes struggle to think about the future. But I I really feel like um I mean the unhelpful answer is always well we'll dismantle capitalism and we'll um you know um racism will be gone and um but I think it's um I think it is just continuing the work really um and there's just so much change that needs to happen. But whenever I do feel overwhelmed about that, I think about the people who've come before and what they've accomplished and that we're not so stagnant as it feels. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 46:20

And you don't want it to be I I talk about zeitgeist all the time on the podcast because you you kind of want to make something cool. If you want change, part of it is you have to make it cool and interesting and also be um interesting enough and cool enough for people to want to go along for the ride, even though they're not personally affected by it. And so I think that that's that's where maybe we can keep working at building that zeitgeist and that interest. I don't know, what do you think?

SPEAKER_05 46:49

Yeah, access as the norm is I think important. Yeah, sorry, go.

SPEAKER_04 46:53

No, I I was just holding my microphone. But um, but I guess I I I would say that I think the zeitgeist thing is is a blessing and a curse because you know, like say with the topic of late diagnosed autism or ADHD. Um, you know, you also end up with those articles like in the Australian where we're getting too many haircuts and um going to the cinema using the N NDIS funding and you know how terrible.

SPEAKER_05 47:26

God forbid we access the community and get basic IG.

SPEAKER_04 47:29

Yeah, yeah, with social and community participation. That that's what it's it's it's for. But um yeah, that I think it it also means perhaps that yeah, there's that risk that people's access needs can be kind of um downplayed or dismissed because there's so many people in the community who are discovering this and everybody's access needs are unique and individual. But you know, you know, I I guess I'm thinking about the dinner party or something where the response is like, oh, but everybody's got ADHD these days, and it's like well, no, firstly, no. And secondly, that doesn't mean that an individual person's needs um are not important to be met, even if the next person's high-flying entrepreneur who um is you know doing great in life probably has a a wife at home doing all the daily living skills, but you know what I mean. Like it's it's I think that it's a tricky thing to get the get it to make it normalized for people to have access needs. Um yeah. Like uh for example, hypermobility. I've just discovered this about myself after 17 years of physio and osteo. I finally found out that I have hypermobile joints and that's why they don't recover from injuries. And what's fascinating is like they estimate maybe 20% of the population is hypermobile. And yet that's um not a part of our daily discussions, or even our like even finding someone in the healthcare system that has training in how to manage that is is hard to find. So it's that even if it's a large portion of the population that's experiencing it, and even if it is all over TikTok, that doesn't mean that you can um get the support you need and that it's um accepted.

SPEAKER_05 49:19

I think it's important to remember that everyone has access requirements and access needs, regardless if you have a disability or not. It's that most people are accommodated. Um and it's important to remember that when you do uh ask um for your access requirements, you're probably not the only person who needs it as well. Um so and your access is more important than someone's mild inconvenience as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:49

Can we put that on a t-shirt?

SPEAKER_05 49:50

Yeah, I would wear that.

SPEAKER_09 49:52

But what if there's what if there's an incident like uh annoying teenager comes storming through with weird bells on his and that sort of stuff, and it sort of can be a bit triggering. How would anyone actually sort of go and ask for some accommodations or is there a squiet spot I can go to? You know, how many people would actually go and do that? Anyone brave enough to say whether they would?

SPEAKER_05 50:20

See, I'd say that um because we've you've provided a quiet space that people don't have to ask for it, they can just use it. But sorry, I'm interrupting your personality.

SPEAKER_09 50:31

Sometimes like in a non like a place it isn't, it's just it's noisy or whatever. Like I I'll just give you a quick example of why. Um there was someone who um I w interviewed and uh they we were at a restaurant, um Bianca, you know this one. Um we were sitting there having some food and there was this there was all this noise and what was it the air conditioning? It was a bit too much. She went up and asked. And like I couldn't believe that you could actually go and say, Would you mind turning that off, please, or whatever? It never occurred to me because I've always been brought up to be polite and just steal, suck up and just forget about it. You know, how many people would do anyone does anyone of you do that?

unknown 51:15

I do that.

SPEAKER_09 51:17

Yeah, and it's it's again the same thing of being like, Am I being um you know, annoying in a bracket or whatever?

SPEAKER_05 51:24

Um rejection sensitivity dysphoria, is it not? Like you're you've been taught that your needs are ridiculous or annoying, or or you've been put down so many times that we get into these situations and we feel like we can't. And I I want because um I've seen so many you know older older women just go up and do that. I'm like, I want their power. I want like Ursula, but with a middle-aged woman, like you know, yeah. Yeah, Jessica, you here for other people but not myself. Oh, okay. Oh vibe, yeah. Yeah, yeah. You hear Jessica?

SPEAKER_09 52:04

Maybe not.

SPEAKER_04 52:05

Um I also I I I find sometimes um when quiet spaces are only accessible if you need to find a staff member. That really gets me because it's kind of like you do realize by the time I need a quiet space, I'm really not gonna be like finding that one person in the crowd that's got the swipe card, and then going up to that strange person and asking to open the door.

SPEAKER_05 52:30

So you might be already up the you know, at the top level about to explode. So yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 52:36

But that's also perhaps because I've been at an event masking for two hours and not paying attention to my needs and being more proactive in using that space before I hit capacity. Yeah. And so that's also something on me to work on. But yeah, I think we're in a bit of a journey. But yeah, I agree with Artie that perfect is the enemy of good when it comes to providing access. And if we if we can if we only do it if we can do it perfectly and you know, without the swipe card, um, then that would be also a shame. And I think venues are often too scared to do more in case they get it wrong and they get criticized. Um, but if you're really clear about what it is and what it isn't, then yeah, then that's great.

SPEAKER_05 53:22

There's some brilliant person in the crowd who said it's um I say brilliant because I do it too, that um it's it's sometimes it's easier to um advocate for someone else's access needs. And I wrote something really silly here in that um doing that's like being an unmasked vigilante. Instead of a masked vigilante, you're an unmasked vigilante.

SPEAKER_09 53:46

Oh my god, that's been amazing.

SPEAKER_05 53:48

And I don't know how to work that in naturally, so I just thought I'd shove that right in. Sorry.

SPEAKER_09 53:56

We we part one of the things we were considering doing we're not don't worry, was uh I hear certain words and so forth like unmasked vigilante, and I think, oh my god, that's an awesome name for a song. It's so cool. I want to write a song called that. And what we were gonna do is go up and do it on the spot, but we haven't got much uh time for that, and it's incredibly embarrassing. Um but unmasked vigilante, look out for it. I'm gonna I'm I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna do it. That's awesome. Now, looking at the Hey, how are you doing?

unknown 54:27

Hello.

SPEAKER_01 54:29

I was wondering, should we hear some of these menti questions?

SPEAKER_09 54:33

Go for it now. Yeah, because we're leading into QA, so this is a good time to do that. Yeah, go for it. Are you happy for me to just read the menu? Please, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:40

Alright. The first one parking, exclamation mark. It's hard to figure out with venues where is parking. How much will it cost? You can't Google for street parking, duration and cost, and parking stations are often full or expensive.

SPEAKER_09 54:58

Yeah, it's true. He's saying he's saying he's so smarmy because he knows the parking is great.

SPEAKER_04 55:03

Um, for for artists or producers that are putting on an event, um I I I usually send like a template visual story to the venue that, and I've done my bit where it's explaining who I am and what the show is, and then I have these like sort of blank or like these parts to fill in, and one of them is like, can you let me know what the best parking options are? Um, and yeah, the street parking thing's a tricky one, we're not quite at that stage where you know where the empty parks are. But um, but yeah, I'd love to see that type of thing much more normalized. Um for and not necessarily just for the people with lived experience of disability who are thinking about it, but just like any artist.

SPEAKER_01 55:49

I agree. I think it's the next multi-million dollar app, the app where you can find out where a car park is. Oh yes. Oh okay.

SPEAKER_05 55:58

It's just never just your pitch for your.

SPEAKER_01 56:02

This is Jack Tech.

SPEAKER_04 56:04

We have a high fly on her. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 56:07

I'll invest, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:08

Um the second question that we have here, um, it's it's not necessarily a question, but it's a statement that I think we could respond to. And it's although it's true that capitalism ruins art, um, it's really real. So, how does one get their foot in the door to becoming an established artist?

SPEAKER_09 56:26

That was my last question for Matt, so let's go for it.

SPEAKER_04 56:29

Well, I'm unfortunately um the beneficiary of the capitalist system of art, but mainly because I made um an album that uh parents like to play on repeat overnight on Spotify and Apple Music to their children, which means it's not even at the whims of changes to the algorithms and Daniel X's late uh Daniel X's latest kind of pursuit, and um and so I've yeah, um but I really wish I I've I've had to grieve a lot how difficult this industry is to to work in, and even as a fairly established artist now, I'm basically all alone and self-managed and doing everything myself. And when you're at music school, you're never taught how to like use a spreadsheet properly or what GST is or crazy, or basic marketing skills. So you're all out on your own, and those that period of ill health I had was in the first five, ten years after leaving the conservatorium where all of a sudden I realized how much I didn't know, and I was trying to teach myself as an undiagnosed ADHD, you know, at home, and um yeah, I I think all I would say is it's it's in it's yeah, like I said before, a lifetime game, and it's best to go slow and and create projects that can scale. So can you create a project, say you're a musician, can you perform comfortably by yourself as much as you can comfortably perform with a band? Um it means that you're able to respond to different performance opportunities, touring, um, collaborating, um, because you've you've developed a creative practice that's able to meet different budgets, different venue sizes, different opportunities, and you're not too boxed in. And yeah, you do have to find a way to communicate the work that you do to the public in a way that will make them interested in what you do. And that usually includes social media, but not always. But yes, finding the right words, again, things you don't learn at music school, but you know, the how to write fancy words about the music and why it's important and how to say that on the radio or put it into a social media post, all those things you slowly chip away at that, and then hopefully that people will come.

SPEAKER_05 58:56

Yeah. Um I mean, it again depends really on your medium as well, but I think that um to echo a little that it is a bit of persistence and a little bit of that um as the children might say, cringe mountain of what does that mean? Oh cringe mountain. Okay, it's it's the idea that you have to climb cringe mountain to get to the top. So you you do have to put yourself out there and maybe like sit with the discomfort of potentially being embarrassing or or getting negative feedback, and that's hard.

SPEAKER_09 59:38

Um is a lesson, 100%.

SPEAKER_05 59:41

My um my not to name drop, my good buddy Bo um Winden is like his whole um ethos is about failure and seeking failure and being proud of his failures as well. So yeah, I think you do have to fail a lot, and again, that's really hard if you have that rejection sensitivity dysphoria. But he was able to reframe it as a celebration. Um, but again, there's also multiple ways to get your, you know, to get that momentum, and it's not, and you might have to find your own way, and that is that persistence of putting yourself out there and you know meeting people as dreadful as that is.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:24

Um definitely a bit of that.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:26

Yeah, yeah. And um it it is and and you might be surprised, you might end up somewhere you didn't think you would be, but you're happy nonetheless. Yes, I think. Exactly what happened to me. Yeah, when you're trying to like you're flipping me off a little bit.

SPEAKER_09 1:00:43

Well the voice of the action happened. I just wanted to get I just wanted to get an answer from Voice of the Ocean. Um a really quick one for me is go and get a marketing degree because I think you need it. That nowadays the the artists have to have to do their own marketing.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:56

Wouldn't it be nice if the Bachelor of Music also offered a compulsory subject in life?

SPEAKER_09 1:01:02

If you should, it's ridiculous that it doesn't. Lewis, you sort of you tell us the time, how much time we got to um has anyone in the in the crowd got a question they wanted to ask while you got the chance?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:14

I just I just want to say I'm actually studying workplace training assessment at the moment. We're learning all about training, and almost all of the creative arts courses now include business units to cover managing yourself as an artist or to run a theatre or like and almost all of them have that now.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:36

Except for the um yeah, I think the conservatorium model, the the likes of the jazz, classical composition, those types of degrees, it's um an elective and nobody thinks they need to know it until they've already left, and then they realise that they do. But that's really exciting to hear that that's becoming so normalized. That's great.

SPEAKER_09 1:02:01

Maybe one last question. I think we might have a quick over this one.

unknown 1:02:10

Hi.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:11

Um I just wondered if you could um elaborate a bit more on bouncing back from your burnout. It's something it's something that I've seen and experienced. Um just wondered if you could talk a bit more on that.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:27

Um I think I I had so many that I big I I started to trust the process that I knew that I would come out the other side. Because the first time you hit a depression or a burnout, I don't know what you would call them because back then I didn't know I was autistic. So it was all viewed through the lens of depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, and all of those things were kind of like placeholder names in a lot of ways. But the first time you hit a depression, it's like you feel like you'll never feel better. Um, but then actually, one of the weird things about becoming an experienced person with mental illness is you you can to a certain extent trust the process, and um I realized that it was often about um putting routine in place because again, I didn't know I was autistic, so I was just doing these things that autistic people often find soothing without realizing why. But so I would I would be trying to put more routine in place, um, getting like regular sunlight at the same time of day, or um you know, things that uh would slowly bring me out of this little slump. And actually, strangely, it was the process of becoming a mother where my mental health became really great because when you work in the arts, every day is so different, and you're just going like you know, you've got a tour, and it's like you've got four hours sleep a night and you're working your butt off, and then you've got two weeks of nothing on, and it's so hard to manage your mood and your level of regulation and concentration when you've got that constant change in your life. So when I had a baby, all of a sudden I had routine, and I had like this four-hour routine of like the baby goes to sleep, I'll do something, then feed, then change nappy, and and all of a sudden that routine just regulated me so much, and actually, the best artistic work came out of becoming a mother and and and since and um so I think it's about finding um what supports you need to put in place when you're in that dark place, and then just being um and hopefully having the privilege um of being able to rest and having access to supports um and people and and um therapy and all of those important things, and then just trusting the process and and being patient with yourself and kind to yourself.

SPEAKER_09 1:05:10

Exactly, give yourself a break. It's like yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:13

I think there's the the internalized shame of not being able to um proceed and function at the same timeline as non-disabled people. So I think when you recognize that, oh, okay, so I'm working on crypt time, like I'm working on a different timeline, I can like you know, sense that perhaps this project is gonna ruin me. How do I buffer around that? Um, which is hard and it takes time. Um, I feel like every time I recover from burnout, it hits me almost immediately. So I'm I'm in a I'm in a toxic relationship with that at the moment. So um I was listening very intently. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:58

Yeah. Um

SPEAKER_09 1:06:24

This is a good segue, by the way. That's a really good segue. Um and I don't think you very much when you feel comfortable using it.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:35

But um I um leave it can you go to the next uh thing?

SPEAKER_09 1:06:45

No, next one, sorry. Here we go. Okay. Sorry, this is this is uh something Where is my daughter, by the way? Eloise? Where are you? Hello? Okay, cool. Uh when uh uh Eloise got uh diagnosed um we uh or I I I wanted to figure out a way to explain that to her, and that's why I do that as usually and um and when I was thinking about that with some issues I had earlier, which is why that arguments are not going to be used is uh issues of the whys and things like that. And so when I was thinking of uh how to explain what's what is autism, it's not such a big thing, but I try to focus on uh one particular thing is which is sometimes you know, it's the best you try, sometimes the whys are just get a little afraid and you know they don't quite jump the way they're supposed to. And so that's what I did. I wrote a song for Eloise to say, welcome to Team Awesome. Sometimes sometimes things could be a little afraid, but not always, and we're we're we're fantastic. So that's what we're gonna do now. We're gonna quickly uh play a song.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:06

Sound a sweetheart.

SPEAKER_09 1:12:20

Thanks so much. Thank you so much. That was awesome. Oh my god. Okay. Final little conclusions. Where did I put all my paperwork? Oh, yeah. Um If we go to the next slide, there's a QR code to uh the Facebook page. I'll post the recording of the show on the uh sending messages, um the email the other one on there as well. I'm on Instagram and like everyone anyone.