"From Corporate World to Prison Ministry": Unleashing Freedom From Within ft. Cliff Parish

In this episode of From Wrong to Strong, host Omar Calvillo interviews Cliff Parish, co-founder of the prison ministry organization “Freedom From Within.” Cliff shares his journey from a difficult childhood, marked by his father's alcoholism and suicide, to founding and running a successful business. A turning point came during a mission trip to the Philippines, where he witnessed hopelessness and began working on prison ministry. Freedom From Within, founded by Cliff and his wife Sue, focuses on transforming lives of incarcerated individuals through a structured program called Transformational Rhythms. The program consists of four interconnected courses aimed at equipping prisoners with the tools to lead meaningful lives inside and outside prison. Parish highlights the importance of transformation, integrity, and empowerment in the lives of the incarcerated, and discusses his vision to expand the program through digital platforms. 

https://www.freedomfromwithin.org/

https://www.freedomfromwithin.org/podcast

https://a.co/d/fkSQb37 (Link for the books)

Transcript

0:15

Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Wrong to Strong Chicago. I'm your host. Uh, my name's Omar Calvio, and, and tonight I have my guest joining us. His name is Cliff Perish. Uh, I, I met this brother through, Ronica Casillo. So a big, uh, a shout out to Ronnie, uh, through Ronnie. I, man, I've been connected with so many guests. Been able to make, uh, what I call and consider, uh, divine connections. It's just, it's been a blessing to connect with but yeah, I wanna share a little bit about this brother. He runs a, a organization, it's called, uh, freedom From Within and I'm, I'm gonna read a little bit of what they do here. So it says, uh, freedom from within equips and empowers prisoners to unleash the masterpiece already inside of, of them, uh, to live meaningful and productive lives inside and outside of prison. Cliff, along with his wife, Sue Perish, have been ministering inside the prison system for more than 10 years now, investing in thousands of hours in prisoners, prison and prison staff and prison, leadership, identifying issues and creating programs to empower those behind bars. Cliff and Sue built freedom from within on top of a framework for transformation, which has been researched, developed, and practiced over the last 35 years. Together, they have leveraged this framework to equip and empower those incarcerated to unleash the masterpiece in themselves. The relationships, groups, organizations, and communities. Over the years, a program consisting of four connected courses has been developed called Transformational Rhythms, which has proven successful in restoring the broken to wholeness, breaking generational issues, and restoring a positive legacy for future generations. So, I'd like to welcome my guests, uh, cliff Paris to the podcast. Welcome brother. Hey, Omar, thanks, uh, for having me, man. Great to be here. Oh, no. For, for sure. You know, uh, I, I know we were talking right, right now, uh, off air, about the, the people that you know, uh, Paul Boko, Ronnie Carillo, and, uh, like I said, these brothers spoke highly of you, a and they spoke highly of the ministry work that, that you're doing in there. I know these two brothers, uh, have been blessed by it yeah, it's, it's good, you know, and, and you know, both Ronnie and Paul and, and so many others, um, you know, it's exciting to be able to, you know, hear, hear what they're doing out in the world. Um, it just, it really just blesses our heart, uh, to see them successful, you know, in, in, in those two cases. Of course, you know, um, it required, um, a miracle to, you know, to, to get them, you know, out and released. And, um, and I've always, um, thought that, uh, the worst thing about, you know, being stuck in prison is, uh, being released and not being ready, you know, and those two, uh, general specifically, you know, did the hard work, um, when all the odds were against them and, um, you know, praise God that you're able to be able to go ahead and, and, and now they're doing significant work, uh, in the kingdom. It's, it's just amazing. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Especially after spending like, so, so much time behind bars, I know around, uh, 47 and Paul, I believe it was 35, and for them to come out and be like, th thriving, you know, not, not just surviving, but thriving and being a blessing to other, people as well. Yeah. Yeah. And, and they've made so many, you know, you know, just to talk about them for a bit, I mean, um, both Ronnie, um, and Paul have invested heavily in the people around them over the years. And, and so there's countless, you know, countless people that I could speak for, um, that were in our program, uh, that were positively impacted and, and transformed lives that impacted generations. You know, our organization has reached over 2000 people, uh, since we went full time in 2018. And, um, and so when we're. When we're out amongst everybody, you know, we, we, we let them know that, you know, we're not playing games here. You know, we're in a transformation business. And, um, and, you know, people like Ronnie and, and Paul and, and so many others, you know, they're like, Hey, I want to change. And, uh, they do the hard work and then, but, but anyways, you know the reason I brought you on here is'cause I know Ronnie had, shown me some books that, that you guys, uh, uh, made, I guess is the curriculum that you guys use in prison that he started mentioning, some of the chapters and some of the things that you guys, deal with to prepare these guys, to come out and to, to, to be successful. Uh, but man, when I see Noah, I told Ryan, man, I, I wanted some copies so that, that's how I asked him. And then he told me to reach out to you. And this is how we connected. But really the, the main reason I want you out here is to talk about the ministry, uh, but be before we get into it and what led you maybe to start this ministry and the work that you're doing. We would like to know, some about you as, as a person. Uh, so maybe could you tell us, uh, how was life for you when you were young, like growing up? Uh, was mom and dad in the picture? And if you could tell us what part of the country were, were, were you raised? Yeah, I was in the north. I grew up in the northwest suburbs of, uh, cook County, you know, cook County area, um, in, uh, in the town called Buffalo Grove. Um, and, you know, my, my, my upbringing was, was fine. My, uh, my dad was an alcoholic. And so, um, I know that, uh, in your testimony, you know, you talked, uh, heavily about, uh, about that as well in your background. Um, you know, my dad did the best he could while he dealt with his stuff, you know. Um, but, uh, you know, growing up, um, you know, kind of went down the, the path of, uh, dealing with, you know, the brokenness that, you know, alcoholism, you know, comes, you know, does in the family. Um, and then, um, you know, one day, um, uh, my dad was in the process of, um, you know, he was going to AA and stuff and, uh, but he decided that he wasn't gonna go to work. This one particular day. Um, and, um, I remember, um, you know, parents kinda getting into it a little bit, and then there was a comment, it's like, you know what, you'd be better off dead. And, um, I went to school and when I came back, uh, that's what happened. Uh, he took his life. And so I was 15 years old when that happened. Um, you know, found him in the garage. Um, and so, you know, so from a, from an upbringing point of view, um, you know, that was a, um, a big deal. But the truth is, is that I didn't really deal with it like until I was much older. Um, I, I don't think I was in, you know, uh, 20, 21 years old where I actually, um, just kinda like processed that all. Um, so I'm kind of this, you know, guy that just like stays focused going forward. I remember, um, you know, the, the evening that, uh, my dad, um, uh, was taken away in the, in the Hearst and, um, the very next day I went to school. And, uh, just, just pushing through. Just pushing through. Um, and, uh, um, uh, there was a, we, we were in, uh, I think it was swim class or whatever, and there was this kid that, you know, always bugged me anyways, right? I mean, he was just one of these guys. And, and, um, and I, I kept my cool, but, but that day I just felt like, all right, I had an opportunity to just pound on him. Uh, when he started messing with me, nobody knew what happened. You know, I didn't tell anybody what happened. Um, uh, but, uh, he, he was, he was being himself and, um, I'm like, Hey, man, this enough is enough. And so the very next day, I, I pounded on him, of course. And, uh, we got, uh, you know, taken outta class and, and then, you know, then, you know, the principal and everybody, you know, found out what happened. And so they gave me grace and just sent me home. Um, so I think from an up, you know, bringing point of view, you know, fairly decent that that particular issue kind of kicked in there. Um, you know, my mom was then, you know, doing what she had to do to keep the family going and, um, yeah. And so that's, that's the, that's the childhood stuff that, um, you know, were probably the most significant piece. Yeah. And now, like when that happened, how did life change for you, like moving forward? I know you mentioned like you just focused and kept going. Did, did you ever Yeah. Uh, uh, like get to that point where you allowed yourself to grieve? Or did that happen even like years later? Like, I guess, how did you life change? Oh, later. Yeah. Yeah. So, and it's not something that I'm, you know, I'm, uh, plugging as a, as a strength. I mean, it, it was really a weakness. Yeah. Uh, that, um, I'm just like, I'm going forward. I ain't processing it. I remember my aunt at the funeral saying, cliff just cry. And I'm like, I'll cry when I Darn well, please. You know? Yeah. Um. And, uh, but it wasn't until, you know, uh, I think it was like 20, 21 years old where I actually just took, um, you know, so I don't recall what the occasion was, but, um, uh, but I do remember specifically, um, letting go. And, um, and, um, you know, and as I said it, it wasn't that I had an issue with my dad, you know, specifically. I mean, um, so there wasn't no bitterness. It was just more of a numbness that, uh, that occurred. So, yeah. Yeah. I, I, I don't know. I think as men, it's almost like a survival thing. Like we gotta like harden ourselves in a sense, like to keep moving forward, I guess, to be able to continue to do what we gotta do. So, you know, and I've learned like that people grieve, did, uh, did did differently and I've learned like the different stages of grief and how some go through the whole stages and some get stuck at one. But, I believe it's good, like, once we finally get to to grieve and to, to allow ourselves to feel. Because if not that, that be, that could begin to affect us and, and in all type of relationships. So WW were you able to, to like, uh, graduate high school and, uh, how, how, how, how does life look after that? Yeah, so, um, I was working, you know, I, uh, I thought, uh, by the time I was 16, I knew exactly what I was gonna do. I, I loved to, to, um, go bowling. And so I got a job at the bowling alley, uh, became, um, a, uh, a mechanic there. I figured, well, that was it, man. I was gonna, I was gonna be a, you know, a pin setter mechanic for the rest of my life, you know, I was good at it. Um, and by the time I was 19 years old, I actually became the youngest certified Brunswick pin setter mechanic in Brunswick history. And then I'm, I woke. Then the next day it's just like, now what? Like, what do I do now? Um, and so from there I ended up putting myself through school. Um, I went to, uh, I went to DeVry down in Chicago and, um, started learning, you know, how to do, um, you know, computer repair and, and things like that. Uh, so that was, that was my, you know, start of, of the process didn't go that well. Um, and it was really the first time, um, I grew up in the suburbs, so, so that was a whole new, new thing, um, you know, to, to kind of adapt and, and so forth. And of course the partying was happening, you know, and, um, first time on my own, you know, the, the kind of the standard stuff when you go away, um, and. And then one day, um, uh, I get a, uh, notice from, uh, the government that, uh, um, I made too much money last year or whatever at the, at the bowling alley. And so we're stopping, you know, uh, the cash that's coming in for, from social security.'cause since my dad passed away, I was able to get a little cash, uh, that was helping me put go through school. And so between that and the fact that I really was failing school, um, um, I, uh, I, I I jumped out and, uh, went back to, to doing some stuff in the bowling business. Um,'cause that's the only thing I knew what to do. And, um, and then I met somebody that was, um, you know, kind of a mentor. He was a lot, he was a lot older than I was, and he, he worked on, uh, video games, you know, the arcade games. Yeah. Um, and next thing I knew, um, I was kind of hanging out with him a lot more and. Um, he was kinda showing me some new stuff and I decided that this time I was gonna go back to school and, and do it for real. But this time I was paying for it. Totally different man. When you're paying for it. And so, so, um, I went to, I put myself through school and, um, it took me six years to get, um, till I was done. And all six years, man, I had, I had straight, you know, a 4.0 average man, and I was just like knocking it outta park and it's because I was paying for it, right? I mean, you know, there was no, it was just like. And, and I also learned how to learn. Um, that was one thing that, um, was really revolutionary in my life is that, you know, I used to be in a situation where you would just kinda, you know, wait till the last minute, gut it out, you know, turn in your paperwork, don you know, not learn anything, you know, stress on all the tests. And then, um, while I was in college, very early on, probably the second week or so, I, I decided that, wait a second here. Why don't I just like, get it done right after class, let it kind of gel. You know, like I'm getting a, you know, now I would use the words I didn't use in then, but, uh, I'd say, you know, I'd, I'd get a return onto my investment. I mean, I'd get interest, you know, while I'm doing other things, right? And, and then, and then I wasn't stressing anymore every time I took tests and I'm like, wow, I like that a lot better than, you know, the other way, right? Yeah. Um, so, so that was, that's my kinda my education thing. And that got me out of the bowling business. Okay, so e education, that's I'm sure probably the early twenties you're going through, through school and all this, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So when, when, when does your wife come, come into the picture? Like, uh, as far as you know? Yeah, so, um, we got married in 88 and, you know, basically we, we were, we did the, you know, the partying thing, her and I, and we were, um, just doing our thing. And then, um, uh, one day and, and it happened exactly like this, man. Uh, and this is before we, we had a relationship with the Lord, uh, but, uh, my wife we're, we're taking the keg back to the, to the liquor store, um, after a New Year's Eve party that we had at our home. And, um, um, I was working for at and t Bell Laboratories in Naperville at the time. Um, and so, so we had this little house. It was our first house. And she goes to me on, on the way back to the liquor store, she says, you know what? I don't wanna do this anymore. And I said, you know what? I'm thinking the same thing. See, her dad, um, was also an alcoholic. And so we knew where this path was taking us. I mean, we knew it. And, and I wouldn't say that I was an alcoholic at the time, but when I drank, man, I didn't stop. Just didn't stop. So, so it wasn't that I was jonesing, you know, in between, you know, I was fine, but when it, when it was, when it was time, it was time. And so I just said, yeah, you know what? I was thinking the same thing. And I'm telling you, man, I, I'm telling you, that was it. We were done. And, um, um, it's been now my wife and I have been married 37, well, it'll be 37 years this year. Um, and so I think it's been about 34 years since I've had a drop of alcohol. Oh. Um. And, and I just made the decision that I ain't crossing that line. Like I'm not putting my toe in there, I ain't doing it. You know, and I've convinced myself that, um, um, you know, that I have an addictive behavior and that, uh, once I put my toe in there, you know, I'm gonna be all in. And now whether, you know, now it's 30, you know, plus years later, whether that's still true today or not, doesn't matter. Ain't going there. Yeah. You know, so, so that, that was, that was kind of our, our our kind of our first couple years of just kind of getting to know each other, figure things out, getting our, getting our world in order. Okay. Now, you, you said that you, you stopped it like on your own. You just guys decided to do it. And you mentioned that was before you or encountered the Lord. So how, how did you end up co coming to Faith? Yeah. So I would, um, put that into my drug phase. Um, you know, my wife started getting all these different ideas, uh, about how she wants to go to church. Um, you know, we, we were just having a, um, a little one, um, born or my, my son and that, uh, you know, her upbringing was, is that, you know, when you have kids, you go to church. And so, so she was, she knew that, um, she had to do some research and find a place that I would actually want to attend, um, versus just, you know, um, drugging me around everywhere. And, uh, so, um. Eventually, um, you know, I went with her and, uh, eventually she got baptized. Um, I was, I was, uh, behind her, you know, um, later on. Uh, but, but she was the one that instigated and, you know, since then, I mean, she's been drugging me everywhere. I mean, you know, like, I mean, just having her, you know, she's taking me on, you know, different things of just saying she gets this thing in her head and, um, and I'm like, I don't really want to go, you know, but I'll, I'll go because I love you. So, so I says, so that's why I said it was, it's, it, that's when my drug problems started, was when she started going ahead and, you know, drugging me to different places. Yeah. Well, you mentioned drugs. I, I, I thought the story was gonna go in a whole different direction, but started drug, drug drugging you everywhere. Well, that, that, that, that's awesome. Now, could I ask you this? Uh, I, I know you mentioned like, uh, it was your wife wanting to, um, go to church. Now, when you were growing up, like on, on your side of the family, did faith, uh, play a part at, at all. No, not really. I mean, we went to church, but it was really more of like the church of what's happening now. So, um, you know, we would go to, you know, Lutheran church or we'd go to a Mormon church or we, you know, kind of just whatever. So, you know, I think my mom, you know, wanted to do do right by that. Um, we went to a Presbyterian church, I mean, but, but there was no connection. It was just like the thing you do. Uh, my dad didn't wanna have anything to do with it. Uh, but, but my mom tried to make some of that happen. Gotcha. Okay. So, okay, so now you're married, you know, uh, uh, it sounds like you guys were having a kid. You said a little one. So obviously you guys, you know, started your family. So how, how, how does life look like in, in these years here? Well, so I, I have two children, um, a boy and a girl, and um, you know, like she said, we started going to church and, um, I started getting very involved. And, um, you know, one thing led to another. I started leading some small, you know, I got involved with small groups and I, and then my wife and I went to a, uh, marriage conference. And, um, and that kind of rocked our world a lot. I mean, highly recommend, you know, that, you know, because I would say our first four years really, you know, really sucked. I mean, you know, as far as like, you know, that first four years was, was, was, you know, very rocky. And then, you know, the Lord came into our life, uh, kind of became the mediator of, of things. And, um, and then we started really thriving. Um, so, you know, small groups. I remember my small group, tti, you know, we, we actually, you know, uh, one of the guys in our, our small group had the keys to the church. And, you know, we went out that night and baptized me. I mean, you know, it, it, it was cool. Um. And yeah, one thing led to another. I got more involved with, uh, with church and, and, uh, um, I was still, I was still working, um, the corporate job and, you know, it was one of those jobs that I thought was like, you know, like I made it, you know, just same thing with like the bowling business right now. I got this, I got this gig, um, with at t and it's like I made it. Um, but after six years, I, um, um, I, I should say earlier than that, I got to a place where I really didn't enjoy it, you know, and I really wanted to start my own business. That was really what I wanted to do. Um, and so, you know, I would dabble and start this and start that. And, um, didn't really have a good plan. I just was trying different things. And one day I was, um, uh, driving into work. And I, I'm just reaching out to the Lord, you know? I'm saying, Lord, you know, um, what's going on? Like, what's wrong with me? You know, you know, I, I'm seeing my, my brothers, you know, falling in love with you. I'm just kinda like, just, you know, going through the motions. I'm getting intelligent, you know, in the word, but that's, you know, but it's not hitting my heart. Um, you know, what's going on here? And, and then of course, you know, you get to this place where it's like, man, just show me a sign or something. Not that I didn't believe, but I didn't believe, you know, I mean, I believe, but I didn't believe, right. You know, as, um, as Paul says, you know, and, and so I pull into, uh, I'm, I getting real emotional as I'm pulling into the parking lot. I mean, I'm, I'm like, I'm literally, you know, you know, bawling and I'm, I, I pull into the parking lot and I look off to my left side and about 10 feet away, there's like this. Thing over there where it's like, you know, I can't make it out. You know? Is it, is it, is it like, you know, the burning bush? I don't know. But I mean, it's something I've, I've never seen before and it's only like 10 feet away. And I look at it and I'm like, what the, get the keys outta the car, get my stuff, get out of the car, slam the door, clean my face off, and I go walk right into, into work. And that whole day I'm like, you know what Cliff? You asked the Lord, you yelled out to the Lord to say, Hey, you know, just show me something. You know, show me, you know, a, a connection. There was something, you don't know what it was. I mean, it could have been a sprinkler head busted. You don't know, right? But you couldn't walk 10 feet to find out about the creator of the universe being like right there. And that, that changed everything, man. That changed everything because it's like, you know, what are you looking for? You're just looking for the next best thing. Right. What happens when you see God? What's gonna be better after that? You know, you just keep on looking for it. And, um, so I, I made a decision right then and there, um, that I already found the truth. I just had to walk it. And, um, and so a little bit more time went on and I found myself, um, uh, still thinking about entrepreneurship and starting a business and, uh, once again, reaching out and praying to the Lord. And I get a phone call the next day, and it was pretty much the next day, the way I remember it, and it's our pastor at our church and he is like, Hey, cliff man, you wanna do some lunch, man, I, I'd like to sit down and talk to you. I'm like, sure. So we sit down there and he offers me a job. Like, and I'm like, well, hey, I asked, you know, for the Lord to show me, you know, my purposes over well. Hello. I mean, if it's a pastor call and it must be it. I mean, it just must be it right. And, and so at the time our, our, our church was, uh, meeting at a high school and we were growing, uh, growing really fast and they needed somebody to kinda like, get things under control. Um, and so they see, they saw me as a kind of a discipline guy. And, um, so I started, you know, doing what I do. And, um, one of the things that was happening on a regular basis that I noticed was, is that the phone, the phone would ring. Now this is in the nineties. Okay. So, um, you know, the technology of course is different then. And, um, the phone would ring and the person on the other end would be like, I need to talk to the pastor right now. I, I mean, you know, my hair's on fire. I need to talk to him like right now. And we'd be like, what's your name? You know Tom Jones. Okay. Tom Jones. Pastor call and we'd put it on a post-it note along like 10 or 15 other post-it notes that'd say, you know, call, you know, you know Sandy Jane and, and Tim Buck too. And you couldn't tell any urgency at all. And then the, then the pastor would get there and he would just be like, he's just got a bunch of post-it notes on his, on his desk. And meanwhile, all these people are getting hurt and upset because nobody's returned his call in a timely manner because there was no understanding of urgency. And so I decided in my, uh, my, uh, uh, role as director of administration is what I was, and I was still working for at and t by the way. Okay. Um, this, so this was just kind of a part-time gig. And, um, I'm like, you know what? I have some software skills. I'm gonna develop a voicemail system. This was revolutionary at the time. Uh, probably not revolutionary, but it was certainly new. And, um, and so I got a little PC computer and, um, hooked up a couple phone lines and when people would call, they would, you know, have an opportunity to leave a voicemail message for the pastor. The pastor just thought, oh, this is amazing, man. It is a God thing, right? And he would be able to hear, you know, pastor, you gotta call me right now, man, I need you right now. And he would be able to go ahead and do what he needed to do. And that was, um, the epiphany that I had to start my own business. And I, um, after six years, I stepped out and resigned. Um, from at and t. Everybody thought I was nuts. Um, I went from a good, great, actually a great paying job to zero. And, um, and I started my company in 1995. Um, and, and I started by providing voicemail. Two people that live on the road, that live in tr that, uh, drive trucks and live in RVs. Um, and I don't know if you remember back then, but there was a, an, uh, there was a phone company called MCI at the time and they, they would have, they had this friends and family plan and I plagiarized their, their slogan and I'd say, you know, connect with your friends and family. Um, and, and so here's somebody driving a truck, for example, and he is, you know, on his way to Kansas City and he might say something like, you know, leaving a message, Hey, I won't be, uh, you know, I won't be able to get my messages until Wednesday. I'll be in Kansas City, but uh, you know, let me know what's, you know, what's going on. And then people would leave, you know, leave a message, you know, whether it be I love you, or Hey, call me as soon as you get this. And that was the way they communicated.'cause cell phones weren't, you know, anywhere outside of the, uh, um, you know, the city. Right. And, and that, that, um, that's basically, um, I ended up resigning the church because. Truthfully, I, I hated working with volunteers, man. They were, they were, they were, they did not meet my, you know, like, like, you know, just do what you say you're gonna do. And they're like, Hey, I'm a volunteer man, you know, I'll, I'll show up if I wanna show up. Right? And so that drove me crazy. Um, so eventually, you know, I, I didn't have a job. I started this company outta my basement. And, um, and then, you know, over time, I mean, you know, I put my kids through college and, uh, we hired, um, we had, I think at the highest we probably had 40 employees. Wow. Um, I took, I took it international in 2007. Um, and yeah, so anyways, that was a lot of talk, so, oh, no, that's great. I mean, I mean, that's, that's amazing how you ask for a sign and then they led you to the pastor calling you and you thought, man, I'm just gonna be volunteering. But all, all hearing all those calls and it give you that idea that, that, that's amazing how, how things happen Sometimes it could be something so simple as, like you said, the post-it notes and then the, the mind going and man, and led you to create something that led you to start a business. That, that, that's amazing. So, okay. So thanks man. Yeah. So, okay. So, so now you're a, a, you know, a successful business. I know you mentioned putting your kids through college. How, how did you end up getting into prison ministry? How did you end up with freedom from, wi within? Um, so back to my drug problem. My wife in 2004, uh, decides that she wants to go on a missions trip and she's gonna take my kids. And I'm like, I don't want to go. And she is like, well, I'm going anyways. And she wanted to go to the Philippines, and I'm like, I don't want to go. I got things to do here. So eventually, you know, she wins the argument. I said, all right, I'm gonna go there. I'm gonna protect you. That's, that's why I'm going, you know, protect you and the kids. And I end up in the Philippines. And for the first three days, it's like, man, it's hot here. It smells different here. I mean, it's, you know, you know, it is just, I mean, the sun is like right here all the time. It's a 13 hour time difference, you know? So there's this whole, you know, thing going on. And then, um, one day, um, and we were serving, we were doing different things. One day we went to the garbage dump and um, I ran into this kid that lives there. And so I put on my Americano and I'm like, you know, hey man, you know, how you doing? You know, I'm being translated, and I find out that he's getting married. And I'm like, whoa. Wow. That's awesome. Congratulations, man. You know? And, uh, I, I said, what are you dreaming about? You know, now that you're getting married? And he's like, he looks at me and he is like, what are you talking about? What am I dreaming about, man? I live in a garbage dump. And, um, I said, oh, come on man. I mean, there's something you gotta be, you're getting married, man. He is like, listen, my parents grew up here. I got raised here. I'm getting married here and my kids are gonna be here as well. And, and so I saw what I knew intellectually was I saw something with no hope. Like, no hope. He had no hope at all until he got to a place where he talks about, you know, how he survives. And, um, he talk, he talked about how he finds high quality paper and he's able to turn. He, he says he is kind of creative and he is able to take this into and turn it into art. And that's how he would, that's how he would survive. He would sell that in the marketplace. And so I'm Dr. Um, we're flying home and I'm trying to figure out, all right, Lord, was this just an adventure? You know, am I supposed to just do these things for a feel good or, or do you want me to do something? Well, the other thing that happened was, is that I went to a county jail, or, or, uh, actually a city jail while I was there and I was asked to speak. Um, and that was kind of cool. Uh, never been in a, into a jail before. And once again, it's like, you know, ridiculous. There, it's like 110 degrees. I mean, it's just crazy. Um, and they put like 40 guys into a cell with like 15 beds and, you know, it's not a democratic process in there, you know? I mean, um, and of course we're the visitors, so we only get to see. The good stuff, right? I mean, who knows what's behind the wall, man. I mean, who knows what's going on there? And so, so that I had that experience, but back on the airplane, I'm just like, Lord, what do you want me to do? And, and, uh, I'm like, you know what? I know I can just write a check and I'll just fix the problem. And, and I felt like the Lord's saying, well, yeah, that's just kind of a means to an end. And I'm like, yeah, but I know a lot of people, maybe I could have them write checks and then we could just fix the problem because, uh, we were also getting, helping kids get off the street and stuff. And, um, and it's like, no, that's just prolonging it, man. You know, I, I created you to do stuff, you know, a certain way. And, and so I'm like, you know what? You know what I do? I start things from nothing. That's what I do. I'm an entrepreneur. And so I decided that I was gonna start a company in the Philippines where 100% of the profits. Underwrite the things that I'm concerned about. So getting kids off the street, getting them into education. And so we, and, and the church, so we, so the business underwrote, um, uh, a church out there, um, did a, a k through, I think it was, uh, at the time, K through eight, um, grade school. And, and, um, and then we had an orphanage, what they call a refuge center. And we'd get kids off the street and we hire people and 100% of the profits, like everything just went towards that the employees were involved with. Um, you know, like once a month, um, we would just shut down and we, and we'd go, you know, feed kids and things like that. And that required me to travel back and forth to the Philippines a lot. So I hated going. Next thing you know, I'm going several times a year and um, and every time I went, I'd go to the jail. Hmm. It is like, Hey, you know, you know, we're, we're gonna do some business stuff here, but you know, I'd love to be able to go ahead and, you know, do some ministry stuff. And so we go to the jail and every time we went year after year after year, there was this one guy, he was my translator, and he was there, and I'd be like, yes, he's there. You know, like people are laughing at my jokes. He's so good, right? I mean, is he just really good? And, and so I look forward to him being there until one day, several years later, I'm like, cliff, why are you excited that this guy's still in jail? And I'm like, well, because he is really good, you know? And, um, you know, I feel comfortable being able to, you know, to share my message and, um, well, why don't you, why don't you like care about him for, for a second? And so I asked the obvious, right? All your listeners are like, yeah, man, what a selfish SOB, right? Um, but um, I decided to just, Hey man, like why are you still here? And he is like, well, you know, in the Philippines. And this guy is like highly respected. Like he's one of those guys, you know, like, you know, everybody knows him and, and great guy. He is like in the Philippines, you know, if you can't pay your fine, it's kinda like a life sentence. And I'm like, well, how much is your fine man? He is like, it'll just be like 500 us. And I'm like, dude, he's been in this year after year and I'm, I'm thinking like four years by this time, you know that I knew him four or five years for 500 bucks. And so I got connected with the people that I was connected with out there, and I, I said, um, all right, let's, let's take care of that. Let's get, let's set him up with a job. We don't want to, you know, get him, you know, set him up for failure. Um, in housing. This guy was highly respected and, um, he gets out, he's doing the job, I'm hearing he is doing fine, you know, through the grapevine. And then one day, six months later, I find out he takes his life, he killed himself to find out that the world around him kept on saying, remembering that guy that they used to know and they were getting into his head and he, he no longer had, his identity was no longer the guy, you know, that had it all together, but he was the guy that was the screw up from something. I don't even know what he did in his past. Right. Okay. But they kept on reminding me that, you know, you're not all that man. And so I realized just getting somebody a job they don't have, if they're not ready. And that, and it's gotta be worse than, than hanging out in prison. I mean, if you're not ready, it's hard. I mean, you know, you, you made the transition. It's hard. Um, but at the time, I just knew that this happened. I felt like he was set up for success, all right. But I didn't get, I didn't get him right. Yeah. Like he wasn't right yet, even though on the outside, you know, the outside of the cup. Right. You know, um, that was all clean and shiny, but the inside of the cup, as Jesus would say, wasn't taken care of. So I'm still not thinking prison ministry. But then I get a, uh, um, a call to, to teach guys at the Dixon Correctional Center, um, to do a business workshop. This is in 2013. Okay. So 2007 is when I incorporated the, the, the company, um, in the Philippines. I am busy. I'm real busy still. Um, I'm, I'm learning this thing called Kingdom Business. So basically it is just, you know, being in the marketplace, knowing the marketplace has a lot of influence, you know, uh, more than a church because, you know, because you know, you're with somebody for 40 hours a week versus the, you know, church is one or two hours a week, right? And so business has, is very powerful for the gospel. And so I was just really starting to think more about. About how can we make kingdom business a thing? So I was kind of busy doing that. And then out of the blue I get invited to Dixon Correctional Center to teach, you know, business. And, um, I'm like, sure. So we went out there, my wife went with me, and it's the first time ever in a state prison. I only knew the, the city jail and, you know, and, and you were, were you in Dixon? No. You weren't in Dixon, right? No, no, I wasn't. Yeah. Okay. Um, and so, you know, that's where I met Ronnie and, and so forth later on. Um, but anyways, I give this workshop, it's like a hour and a half, two hour workshop. And it went really, really well. And I'm getting calls afterwards like, Hey, can you do this, like on a weekly basis? And I'm like, hello, I'm busy. I got other things to do. Well, you know, really cool. These guys really wanna learn business. They really wanna learn stuff. And, um, I was kicking and screaming on that one. My wife's like, well, have you prayed about it? And I'm like, no, I've been busy. You know? Um, and so, so I spent some time praying about it and I, I came back and I said, no, this will be a complete waste of my time. And they're like, why? What, what, what do you need to make it worth your time? And I said, well, if I'm gonna invest in, in people, I'm not going to just teach'em something that anybody could teach'em. I said, I could teach people business skills like a profit and a loss statement and a marketing plan, you know, and, and, um, and, and just be able to, to think about running an organization. You know, when things get tough, when people tell you you're an idiot for going into business, and you said, and you believe in it. I mean, think about it. You, you're dreaming about something for years, right? You got this business idea, and then some knucklehead comes around, listens to your idea, and like in 30 seconds he tells you it's a stupid idea. And most people believe that knucklehead, and they don't even know, right? I mean, and usually the person that's got the loudest voice is the, is the person that's broke or never did the business thing anyways, right? But yet it's a character issue to decide whether you're going to kill three years or five years of dreaming. Uh, because somebody's like, man, this is the dumbest thing ever. And so I told'em, no, that'd be a waste of time. They're like, well, think about, you know, if you were to do it, like if you had anything you needed, what would you do? And so I ended up, uh, connecting with, um. Um, one of my business partners, um, he's, he's a gifted writer and another guy who's a known author, um, his name is Dr. Ron Jensen, and he is written many, many books. Um, and we started just brainstorming what would it look like? And, um, we decided, well, step one is you need to get this right, like your foundational self. And, um, and then step two is, you know, how do you lead yourself as an influential leader? As a leader, you're taking the lead and, and that you have influence whether you like it or not. Um, and do you respect, you know, what you're communicating. The third one's called thriving teams. Thriving teams is how you work, you know, in teams. And the fourth one is called organizational integrity. And, um, uh, that's really preparing to be an entrepreneur or an intrapreneur. And so we created that and, um, we wrote four books. We started going into Dixon Correctional Center, um, a couple years later. And, at one point we had, um, 10% of the population in our programs that we'd have 50, 60 guys in our, in our classes and, um, uh, in one class, but a total little over 200, you know, um, um, over like two and a half days. We, we, we, I mean it started expanding and growing and we had all four classes going at the same time. Uh,'cause you have to take the first one to get to the second one and so forth. So we had, you know, it was all staggered over time and um, um, and then in 2018, I stepped down as the CEO of the Philippines Corporation and I gave the company to the employees. Uh, that worked there. Um, I didn't tell you this, but, uh, the first four employees that we hired, um, they came from the community of a 350,000 people. And we said, you know, if you're interested in learning that something new, uh, we'll teach you. We're not gonna pay you for it, but we'll teach you. And 12 people, uh, came out to do that, hung out with us for several weeks. Uh, I think it was like six weeks and, um, four remained and they were the first four. Um, but in 2017, in December of 2017, we had about 40, uh, employees then. And, um, and I just knew that I was gonna go full-time in prison ministry. And, um, and so I, I stepped down and I gave them the company. Like I gave them the company, um, which is good'cause the Americano was getting in the way anyways. And now they, now they got like a hundred people there and, and they're just, they're just knocking outta the park. Um, the next month I stepped down for my, uh, domestic company here. Um, and um, and I start and, and I, um, started a company, I started a nonprofit called Freedom From Within. And, uh, we became full-time prison ministry. And, um, and during that time, in any given week, we would have 300 to 350 students a week, um, across five different prisons, um, at the time. And, we were only bound by, you know, the clock, so there's only so many hours in the day. So, so that's it, man. I mean, man, that's, that, that's amazing. Like the whole journey from, from the Philippines to back and now doing this. And, you know, I'm, I'm real big into this word transformation. I am not a big inspiration guy. Like, inspiration only lasts a couple of days. Yeah. And I'm like, we're not, we're not playing that game. And, um, uh, if you were in my first class, the talking points you would hear me say is, is that we only have one requirement in this class. And, um, and I'm like, if you can meet this one requirement, okay, then you're good. But if you can't, then you don't belong in this class. And the one requirement is that if you want to want to, like, if you want to want to be here, you meet the requirement. But if you don't want to want to be in this class, everybody loses. You lose the people around. You lose, all right. You're welcome to come back when you want to want to. But, you know, and um, and that was always our, our number one requirement. And, and, and it really comes back to my early days of running my domestic company and saying that if you don't want to want to be here, you know, I don't care how good you are, man. If you're gonna bring some toxicity to the, to the culture of the company, I don't want you. So, alright. I I know you, you got four books. Uh, as far as time-wise, uh, like let, let's say for instance like a medium max, obviously you got more time with the guys. Uh, how long is, is each uh, course? So generically, um, it's, it is carved out to be 16 weeks each course. Alright, so, so 64 weeks if you will, you know, from start to finish. And like, so today, for example, uh, today, uh, we had, um, three graduations. Um, we had two classes in Sheridan graduate, and then we went over to, um, uh, LaSalle County Jail and graduated another class there. Um, the LaSalle County Jail, uh, we did that class in seven weeks. Uh, but uh, we met with them twice a week. Uh, whereas in Sheridan it was a once a week class and that, and, and that took basically 16 weeks. Um, so based off of the needs and so forth, we wanted to make sure that, um, you know, we're effective and that the, um, uh, people could get the information rather than just getting halfway through and, and then being, you know, um, transferred or, or go home, so. You know, we have all sorts of people that come, you know, into our classes, all different ideologies and belief systems. Um, we say that, you know, it's, it's your truth, whatever your truth is, okay? And we're not here to, um, convince you that my truth is the truth, but I'm not going to tolerate you, um, not letting me be me. And that thereby you can be you. Um, so, you know, like we had several, several Muslims, you know, graduate today, right? Um, I have, uh, you know, stacked this high of, of all the feedback, you know, that we get after a class, you know, and, um, you know, his, his comments were too much religion. Um, and then everything else was like, this is the best thing ever and blah, blah, blah. And it transformed my life and, and, and so on and so forth, right? Um, but having it do you know what you believe in and is it evident in your life? That's the, that's the number one. Are you feeding your, your mind with stuff that's lifting you up or tearing you down? You know, if you're listening to some rap music, uh, talking about how the world's always burning down and everybody's your enemy, it's probably not going to, it's gonna impact the way you see the world. But, um, we have a couple of core verses that we just carry through everything, and one of them is Ephesians two 10. And Ephesians two 10 says that you are, God's masterpiece created a new in Christ Jesus for the good things that were planned long ago. And when you tell a guy that's been incarcerated that he's a one of a kind masterpiece, that there never was and there never will be again. And that he's highly valued. God didn't screw up when he created you, and that there's an option to be anew. There's an option and, and, and, and, and the J word, you know, might bother you, you know, but there's an option, okay, for the good things that were planned long ago, are you on that plan? You know, that's what we talk about. Are you on the plan? So we really hit that home. Um, we, you know, we talk about building your house on a rock versus sand, and, and we make it known that, you know, how common it is for people to build their house on sand, even though it, it sounds really stupid, but we do it all the time. You know, procrastination, location, location, location. You know, blame it on the storm. Who took, you know, who, how come nobody told me the storm was coming, you know, or I was gonna get to it. So we really focus on that. But, but we need to know where your truth is, what your truth source is. Is it, is it highly reliable? Is it historically accurate? Does it serve you well? You know, if, if, if, if you're worshiping some idol, okay, it is what it is. All right? It doesn't make sense to me. And if it's serving your well, cool man. Is it evident in your life? I'm believing it probably isn't. Okay, but who am I to go ahead and demean this guy? Um, and, and, and we know, we know that when they come up with their, like, when they take ownership of, of, of that, that aha moment, that epiphany, that's way more powerful than me talking'em into. Yeah. And so, so we, we, we see atheist, you know, I've seen, I've, I've seen an atheist, um, who I had a lot of respect for, man. I mean, he, you know, he didn't get offended by the, you know, the J word or anything like that because, you know, guy doesn't exist. Right. And during the Shark Tank he's pitching. So all this time going by, in fact, I think COVID was like in the middle of it. So like a ton of time went by and he won third place. And he said, I thank God for this opportunity, but it took all that time, right? And the Lord told me a long time ago walking in Dixon, you know, that, um, I don't own the day or the hour that they're gonna have the revelation. Amen. And that he only called our ministry to show up. Our job is just to show up and, and bring our A game. And then, and that's it. Just love on people. Bring your a game, love on people, bring your a game. And when that stuff happens, it happens. And that's gonna, and that's called transformation. And we're not playing games. And that's why 97% of all of our graduates that have gone home, 97% of every graduate that has gone home is still in the world today. Amen. That's amazing. Right? Yeah. Well, and it pisses me off, right? Because it should be zero. Yeah. Like, it should be zero. But you know, we have a handful that, um, whatever happened. Yeah. And, um, and people would say, cliff, why should it be zero? You know, that's, that's unrealistic. And I'm like, as far as I'm concerned, nobody's ever tried. You know, every one, every single person is a one of a kind masterpiece. And every single person there, all right, can be a new, like, they can take the old man, put the new man on, alright. Every single person, you know, there's good things planned. You just have to be willing to do it. You have to be, you know, surround yourself with people like my wife who, who, who, who drug you to different places. Um, you know, and just say, all right, honey, I love you. I don't really want to go, but I'm gonna do it anyways and get, get you in position for the things that you never thought imaginable. And so I'm in prison a lot because I saw diamonds in the rough everywhere, and I just saw the potential everywhere. And, um, and, and, and so I had to look at what do I do good at? It's being able to see their potential and unleash the masterpiece that's inside of them. And then I watch'em freak out because they're just like blown away. I mean, they're just blown away. And, and there's nothing better than that. Amen. And, and, and I'm sure for a lot of these men, this is probably like one of the first time that they have a man, like speak life into'em. And like you mentioned, to believe in them, to believe that there is like potential and that there's more to them than maybe what people have spoken over'em. And I'm sure a lot of'em is mostly like the, the bad, you know, like growing up, I, you know, like all these, all these names that you get called that obviously are, are now what God created us to be. And then to have a man to speak life and to believe, and then, but most importantly, to get them to believe.'cause once they, they believe that man, that's when they're probably OO off and running, right? Yeah. It is all of a sudden phone calls, you know, the tone is different, you know, rather than, Hey, you know, did you, did you put money in my account? It's like, Hey, how was your day today, honey? And she's like, what whatcha talking about? Right? It used to be about the kids, right? And now it's like about, you know, tell me about your day. And, and, and they're talking about our class or, or whatever. They're talking about meaningful stuff. And, and, and next thing you know, they're, they're actually doing the foundations for life together and the relationship is, is going to a whole nother level. Um, we have testimony after testimony of, you know, you know, father, daughter, you know, reconciliations and so on and so forth over time. Um, so, and you know, you see the, um, mean we have stories after stories, after stories of course. And, um. We've had several that have done, you know, decades of time to be fully exonerated. Um, you know, I'm thinking of three right now that, um, let's see, 23 years, 29 years, and 35 years, and all of them were rock stars in our program. Like all of'em, all of'em just invested in other people. You know, it took decades to get reconciled, but now you know what, they're, they're living life. They're knocking it out a park and they're ready because, you know, you know, just as, as anyone, the system could have really broke, broke them. Yeah. And so they might have came in, you know, one way, but I, us, you know, if, if they're not taking care of themselves and, and growing, um, you know, the system's gonna just tear him apart. I mean, you know, I I Paulie's testimony on your podcast a couple episodes ago, right. I mean, he has every right to be just a, you know, a mess. Yeah. Like a total mess. Right. But, but you know, God got ahold of him. And, um, you know, and, and story continues. Mm-hmm. So, um, so we just want to, we just want to create light into a dark place because, uh, the darkness is just trying to eat these guys alive. How, how many prisons are you guys in and how, how, how does your team look? How, how many people do you have? W Yeah, so, um, we have a lot of volunteers on the outside. Prison ministry is very difficult to, um, multiply and, um. So for the longest time I'm like, man, we got the best product, man. I mean, you know, testimony after testimony, we should be like everywhere. Um, all these, um, you can't see'em, but I mean, I got the stack of feedback forms I just received today. I mean, they're all like, you know, this should be everywhere and so forth and praise God. And, and, and we're very thankful for that. But prison ministries don't scale very well and, um, not, let not. Um, and so, so I've been trying since 2018 to grow the ministry, um, and make it go wider. Um, but I didn't wanna sacrifice the depth of what we do and so I didn't want to go wide and sacrifice the depth and get out of the transformation business. So, um, so the answer to your question is we've been, you know, up and down the state of Illinois. Um, uh, Menard and we go to Vendel. I know you Valia is a Yeah. Um, a place you're familiar with. Um, at any given time. We've got like 150 guys on the waiting list in Valia. That, and, and we go there several times a year and we do a, a weekend workshop. Um, you know, Stateville, when it was open, we'd go there, but to answer your question, right now we are just, we're in three locations. Um, and I've, I've made a decision, uh, recently, uh, that the best way to multiply what we do is to digitize our material and, um, uh, get it on the tablets that these guys have. Um, so we've been approved, um, to, um, to put our mat our classes on the tablets and um, come July. I'll be able to tell you that we're in thousands of prisons. Wow. Um, reaching. Amen. Um, a population of 1.1 million people, over 50% of the incarcerated population will be reached on this particular platform. And, um, while in person, you know, is obviously the best way to build relationship and, and and so forth, um, but when you compare it to zero, you know, um, then you know we gotta do something right. And so I'm, I'm, I'm designing the. The, uh, electronic version to be just like, uh, as best as I can, a live class where, um, there's a, my, my talking points, uh, we do this thing called learn, apply and engage. Um, so we, we learn stuff and then we apply it. What do we, what does it have to do with our life? And then we engage in small groups. We give it life. And, and you know, what happens is the, the world likes to learn stuff and engage people, but they skip the apply state, so they never get any of the benefits. And so I'm trying to replicate in a, on a tablet, um, through video, um, in interactive questions and even a, an engage, an engaging experience. And, um, you know, version number one. Okay. I mean, I need to get it out there. Version number two is gonna be better as technology gets better and so forth. Uh, but we see that, um. We're believing that, our ministry is going to grow exponentially. Um, and my, you ever heard of a term called B hg? B hg Yeah. No stands for big hairy audacious goal. And my, my big hairy audacious goal, okay, is to hire my graduates when they get out and teach them computer skills that can help us create more digital content. That's, that speaks the language, right? If you notice, I don't speak the language, you know? Um, but to have more, you know, relevant people that actually, um, can speak the language a little bit better than me and still bring the goods, um, and be able to, you know, have a, um, a job that is actually creating those goods. That's my big, very audacious goal. And, and, and I, and I see that that's an opportunity. I mean, there's very few, if any, prison ministries that are state or nationwide, you know, I mean, they might have a pocket here and a pocket there. Yeah. But they're not hitting all 2 million people that are incarcerated. And, and so here we're gonna hit 1.1 million. Amen. At least it's gonna be available to them. Right. And so I'd like to be able to say, be on your podcast someday and say we have a hundred thousand in our, you know, that we're reaching every day. Amen. Right. Or 200,000. Um, and it, and it transformation's happening and our communities are changing. You know, I mean, when this transforms and then it transforms your family and then it transforms your community. Next thing you know, your nation's commu, you know, is transforming. Yes. And it's very common for my students to say, you know what? I want to go ahead and reach the youth. I wanna make a difference in my, my community. I wanna do this stuff. Right. Well, here we go. We're, we're gonna give you the tools and we're gonna encourage you to engage with others. You know, maybe you all have tablets and you get on the deck and you start talking about meaningful stuff. Like you mentioned, uh, I think 1.1 million and even more God willing, you know, in due time. Yeah. The state of Illinois just signed a deal with this, this group that we're part of. And, so two months ago, we wouldn't have been in Illinois. All right. But, uh, state of Illinois finally did it. And so there's another 30,000, you know, right into the mix, right. Nice. So nice. Now, where, where can people go to hear about this, uh, freedom from within? Uh, you could share, you know, like a website and anything else you got going. And another thing too that I've been listening to is your, your, uh, podcast. I believe you started it during the pandemic. So I went back and I listened to maybe I think like five episodes. Oh, wow. You know, from the beginning. Yeah. So I, I got to hear, I believe you started it because you weren't able to go into the prisons back then, but yeah, if you could share website, podcasts, ev everything else that, that you guys have. Yeah. Yeah. So our podcasts have been kind of hot, hot and cold. Um, so, really as far as just connecting with us, um, freedom from within.org is our website. You can connect to our newsletter. If, if this is something that you're interested in doing, you know, as a nonprofit, uh, we are 100% funded, uh, by private donations. We don't do any grants or anything like that. Um, and so, you know, if, if, if there's people that you know, believe in what we're doing, that's a great place to get connected, find out what we're doing, uh, and help us move this mission, um, uh, forward. Um, I'm not real big on the social media stuff, you know, part of it is, is that, you know, when you're in prison ministry, you know, the, the Department of Corrections kinda locks you down on what you can share and what you can't share, um, um, and then those that, uh, uh, wanna take it to the next level, they financially support us as well. Got it. Okay. No, yeah. Thanks for, for sharing out that. Now, uh, a any, any final words, anything that maybe we didn't get a chance to talk about? And then if you could close us out in a prayer as we get ready to, to, to wrap up. So yeah, I'll just, uh, I'll just, uh, uh, praise out and, um, you know, just, uh, yeah, thank, thanks for, uh, the opportunity to be able to share. Amen. So. Heavenly Father, Lord, we're just coming together here. Um, and first of all, just want to, you know, um, uh, lift up Omar and his ministry and all the things that he's doing outside of, uh, just, um, you know, doing the job thing. Um, I I, I've known him just a little bit here and, uh, you know, it's obvious that, uh, uh, he loves what you love. And, at the end of the day, you know, your word is, um, is really all about love. In fact, your word says that you are love. Uh, so, so thank you. Uh, thank you father for, uh, for loving us, um, and, uh, the people that are listening to this podcast. Hey, thanks for giving, uh, giving me grace on my, on my story. And, um, um, you know, my desires is that, uh, um, that you, um, realize that you are a one of a kind masterpiece. And that, um, that there's good things planned and it's only through Christ Jesus that that renewal happens. Um, so, um, whether you believe it or not, um, please take inventory. Just, um, ask yourself the question, do you have integrity of what you believe? Father? Um, just, uh, thank you for, uh, the opportunity to, to be able to use this platform and, and reach others. Uh, because I know that this platform, uh, that the Omar, uh, put on his heart is, uh, touching people and sharing and giving people the voice. Uh, because there's just a lot of stuff that I know that you're not happy with that's out there, Lord. And, um, and, and it, and it needs to be, it needs to be said. And, uh, and truth needs to be spoken, so, so Lord, uh, we thank you. Uh, we look forward to what's next. Uh,'cause we, uh, we believing that, uh, it was awesome before, it's gonna be awesome in the future as well, uh, because you're, you got it. And we trust you. In Jesus' name I pray. Amen. Amen. In Jesus' name. Amen. You know, real quick, uh, something hits in my mind. I, I know the books are available in, uh, Amazon. Yeah. Right? The, the four books. And, and you guys like to go, uh, through the books with individuals, but you think that people listening would benefit from, from getting these books as far as out here. I know you use'em in prison, but. Yeah. So, so what we do in prison is because we own the material, we actually just, we, we print like over a million pages of paper every, every year. And we bring'em in, you know, one chapter at a time. So they don't actually see the book. In fact, Ronnie saw his book, the book for the first time when it was his name was on it. Okay. Um, but we're not in the publishing business. We did put'em up there because people ask all the time. Yeah. Uh, what's on, what's on Amazon. Uh, you would search for transformational rhythms. Um, and that's where the books are at. Um, uh, the workbooks are not part of that. Um, but all the lessons, or I should say all the teachings, that, uh, Bob Clinker and Dr. Ron Jensen, uh, put together are all in there. And, um, and I, and if you, if you go down that path, start with foundations, don't start in the middle, doesn't make sense. Right. Okay. We're building the foundations to start from the bottom up. Okay. Alright. Yeah. W when I release the podcast, I'll check, I'll go on Amazon and I'll make sure and I'll, I'll put links to everything to the, to the website. Okay. To the books, uh, podcasts. Yeah. Alright. Well th th thank you very much for, joining us on here. And with that we're gonna get ready to wrap up. Uh, uh, Matthew four 16 reads, the people who sat in darkness have seen a great light, and upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death light has down alongside my guest. Cliff Perrish am Omar Calvio and we are wrong. Too strong.