Revival in Cook County Jail: Prison Ministry, Redemption, and Discipleship Behind Bars

In this powerful episode of From Wrong to Strong, Omar Calvillo sits down with Gary Reynolds and Klavs Vadonis from Koinonia House National Ministries to discuss prison ministry inside Cook County Jail.

What does it look like to bring the gospel into one of the largest jail systems in the country? How do men facing long sentences respond to Scripture? And can revival truly begin behind bars?

Together, we share real stories from Division 11, testimonies of transformation, and the surprising hunger for God among men the world often forgets. This conversation explores discipleship, spiritual warfare, redemption, and the reality that no one is beyond the reach of Christ.

If you have ever wondered whether prison ministry makes a difference, this episode will challenge your perspective and strengthen your faith.

Scripture referenced: Matthew 4:16, Matthew 25

Follow and subscribe to From Wrong to Strong for more powerful stories of redemption, faith, and transformation.

Transcript

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What really got me got the spark going and for me in this ministry was one of my friends invited me. He said, Hey, would you wanna come with me to shadow me in, uh, in Cook County Jail on one Monday night? And what really caught my attention is how those guys who this, who the world or society sees as forgotten, uh, they don't need a second chance. Uh uh, we've kind of given up on them, leave it to the system. Uh, I saw that they have a really, a hunger for God. Like they are, uh, you stand, stand face to face with a guy who's like all tattooed up, uh, face tattooed and stuff like that. And, and he's just like you. He's human deserving and not just de deserve needing of, uh, God's love. And that just like totally changed my world and I've, I never looked back. I, I want to keep serving each one at either. From the city of Chicago, a city most recently known for its crime and violence. From this podcast, we will be sharing stories of redemption. Listen to my guests as they share their experiences, struggles, trauma, but also the strength, hope, faith, and perseverance these have developed in them to keep pushing and moving forward in life. Tune in to hear how their lives have gone, from darkness to light, and from wrong to strong. Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of From Wrong to Strong. I'm your host. My name's Omar Calvio, and tonight we got two special guests here. I got my brother. Gary and Klas, uh, these two brothers are part of, uh, koinonia House National Ministries. Uh, and I'm gonna let, uh, my brother Gary here, maybe introduce himself a little bit and then talk about what Koinonia House does. What is the, the ministry about? Yes. Uh, I've been involved in EA house Ministries for about 24 years now, and, uh, they are a bridge between the Christian inmate that's coming out of prison and the local church. So they're there. What Manny likes to say is that if we don't meet him at the gate, then Satan meets him at the gate. Wow. So he's there to make sure they get. Help in functional ways too, like with jobs, with housing, but mostly to get'em plugged into the local church. Amen. Amen. And that's a, I know you mentioned Pastor Manny. That's Pastor Manny Mill from Corn House. Wanna give him a shout out, man? That's a amen. That's a great man of God. And we got clouds here. He, he collabs. Um. Tell us where you from?'cause I think you're, you're from somewhere unique. I know when I, when I ask this brother to come on the podcast, I'm like, man, I want this brother on here.'cause he's from somewhere I'm not familiar with. And I'm sure a lot of our viewers are, are not familiar with. So, I mean, just the name is unusual, right? It's not really, whenever I tell people my name, it's like cl who? Cls. Yeah. So my name is CL. I come from the other side of the world. It's Lavia, uh, and I'm here, uh, for school. I'm an international student and I've also been, uh, part of Koinonia house for. Two years now. This month actually it's been two years. Yeah. Wow. Time. Um, so yeah, we go to Cook County Jail every Monday night and it's, it's a blessing. Amen. Amen. Yeah. So, so that, that, that's the reason why we are here. Uh, um, I've been serving alongside these brothers, man for like yeah. Over two years. Uh, so we go into Cook County Division 11, and we have a, a bible study, uh, w with the iic, uh, individuals in custody, right. Is what they call'em now. Mm-hmm. And we managed it is been a blessing to go there and just to, to show him the, the, the love of God, you know, love of the Father. And that's one thing I like, I always like, I know the reason I go there is because it's him and me. Like, I know I don't have anything to, to offer these guys, but, but him, you know, and I'm sure you guys could probably relate to that, right? No doubt. Amen. Amen. So. Before we get into, um, the reason I, I brought these brothers, I wanted to talk about, uh, what it's been like to to minister in Cook County, be be, before we get there, I want like a little bit of the backstory of each of them. That way, you know, our viewers and listeners could know who you guys are. So, Gary, since you closer to me, you could start. So, okay. You tell us where, where, where did you grow up, how was your childhood, and maybe anything of, of significance during, you know, your younger years. Sure. I grew up in the western suburbs, so Bellwood, first seven years of my life, then Villa Park up through college. So I've been out in the suburbs most of my life, and, uh, family, a big family. I was the sixth of seven kids and, uh, devout family, Roman Catholic family. And so went to Catholic grade school and, uh, my parents really instilled in us a discipline, spiritual disciplines, you know, gonna church on Sunday, but, um. My heart was never really in it. I mean, the world had more of an influence on me than, than the church when I was younger. Hmm. At the younger years. All right. Mm-hmm. The clouds. I know. I want more information from you'cause you're, uh, I know he, you mentioned the name. Can you say the name of the country again? Yeah. Lavia. LA field. So you, you gotta tell us we're on the map. So when I, when I release the video, I'm gonna put a map out there and I'm gonna try to zoom in. Yes. So, so we know where this country's at. So go ahead, uh, uh, uh, tell us basically what is that country known for? How, how, how, how does it look? Yeah. It's, it's a, how does it feel? Right? It's a very small country. It's in Eastern Europe. And, uh, it's like, to put it in perspective, it's, it's so small that, um, so in Chicago there are, what, 3 million people in Chicagoland? Right. And Lavia, it's, uh, around 2 million, even below 2 million people. So even Chicago has more people than Lafayette. Wow. But still, it's very, um, even though it's small, it's uh, the people are very proud of where they come from, uh, including me. Uh, I. I, I'm here for school, but I eventually want to go back and minister there and, and live there. Uh, that's where my heart is. But yeah, it's, uh, we have our own language, Ian. And, um, yeah, uh, it, it has a very, very interesting long history that I, I probably should have paid more attention in school if I wanted to, like re recount all of it, but, um. Yeah, maybe I can tell a little bit about, uh, reli, the religious situation there and, oh, no. Yeah, yeah. If you want to, but you, you know, before you get there, man, I, I wanna know h how, how does it look like, like, let's say like where you grew up. How was the neighborhood was, I don't know. Were you right? Was it like a city? Was it in the, in the country? Was it, you know, in the woods? I don't know. Yeah. Lemme try to paint a picture. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I grew up in a very, very small town in like the corner of Lafayette. So it was what, like, it was like countryside. The school I went to had like 70, 60 people maybe. So very small. Uh, and my childhood was honestly really great. I, uh, we. Had a lot of friends, uh, used to ride bikes around the town and, and it was next to the seashore. So yeah, a lot of fish and stuff like that. So, um, now what, what, what seas around there? Uh, it's the Baltic Sea. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's kind of in the, maybe in the size of Lake Michigan. So it's not even like that crazy, but it is a sea, right? Um, yeah, so my childhood was good and when I was, uh, after ninth grade, I actually moved to the capital city. Uh, for high school. I, uh, moved there, moved outta my parents' house and went to study, um, in a trade school. And in the middle of that, when I was in the capital city, I think God really started, um, calling me in a special way, just like Gary said, right? Like we grew up in maybe a Catholic home or I grew up in, um, in a Baptist home and. And it was, I never really left the faith or, but, but I made it very personal when I was, uh, in high school.'cause I was discipled by my pastor. And, um, I think, yeah, around time, that time I, I made the faith like very personal to me. And um, yeah, I got interested in theology. And can I ask you something? Yeah, yeah, sure. Was there like a significant moment that made you like that switch or was it gradual? Like see that's, that's in, that's interesting that you asked that be because I think it was gradual. It's like oftentimes we, there are a lot of stories, especially in your podcast, right? A lot of stories where there's like this huge overnight day and night switch. But for, for most people, for the average, average listener, maybe it's. It does happen very gradually where just God is like sowing those little seeds in you and, and then one day you're like, oh, this, this really makes sense. Like, uh. If I'm gonna live for anything in this life, it should be for Christ. And so, yeah, at some point you just kind of mature and understand what Christ has done for you, that it's, that's a gift that's freely given, you know? And, uh, yeah. Does that kind of, no, no. Yeah. Yeah. So it was like a gradual that Got you. Okay. I'm gonna, yeah. And then, uh, I got interested in theology, just exploring about who God is and. And all that stuff about Christianity making sense of, of the world, because I think theology is about that. It's a, it's a study about God and the his world that he has made. And so I was looking for schools to do that. Uh,'cause I, I was like, yeah, if I wanna dove my life to something, it's, it, it should be to, to this. I was the most interested in that. Even though I have a lot of other things I like, but uh, so I was looking for schools to do that. And one of the schools was, uh, here in Chicago that was like, that really stood out to me and my pastor and some other people encouraged me to apply. And it is, it is a whole story of how, how I even got here. It's a miracle in and of itself. You know, we're gonna get to the whole story. I wanna hear the whole thing, but we'll go bit back to Gary A. Little bit now. Now, for you, Gary, I know you mentioned like, like, uh, Catholic, you know, like. Let's say when you were younger, like your teenage years going into, you know, the young adulthood, how does, uh, life look for you like, uh, during that time? Well, like I said, the world had more of an influence on me and the values of the world had more of an influence on me. Although I got hint to my parents, I don't know how they did it, but none of my six brothers and sisters and I, we never really walked away from the faith. We always were in church on Sunday, no matter how I was living throughout the week. I was, uh, still in church on Sunday and, but yeah, when it came to high school and college, it was mostly pleasing the people around you, finding popularity with the people around you and doing whatever they wanted to do, you know, to, uh. To be accepted, I guess, to be accepted. Got it. Now, now, now college is a certain, um, career you were looking for, like during the Yeah, I studied business in college, you know, and I wanted to get into sales when I got out. Gotcha. So that's what I did. I studied and then I, that's really when I came to Saving Faith, that was through my business partner, who I was working with when I came out of college. I was really frustrated with not, uh, having this sort of success that I wanted to have. Uh, unbeknownst to me, he had started a spiritual journey of his own. He was going to a Bible study and, uh, he invited me to, to join him. So that's really when things kind of started happening for me. I tasted the word of God. I remember the first time I went there, the pastor was teaching. I was really anxious about all the things going on in my life. And the pastor was teaching from that famous story in the gospels where, uh, Jesus says, look at the birds of the air. They don't store up in barns yet. God feeds them. How much more important are you than birds? And I remember that even though I'd been sitting in church all my life and hearing messages like that, there was something unique about the way it hit my heart and I wanted more of what he was talking about. I wanted more of what these people in this Bible study had. I saw this piece that they had and I wanted more of that. So God really, uh, set up. I, my, you know, my wife likes to do puzzles now. And there's this thing when you're doing big jigsaw puzzles, when you're trying to fit a piece and it's just not right, you know it's not right, but when you find the piece that fits perfectly the way the creator of the puzzle wanted it to fit, you get this like euphoria inside. I found the piece, and that's what happened to me in that Bible study. It was like, yeah, this is what I've been looking for. The word of God is speaking to my heart and giving me this peace that I've never felt before. Man, that, that's a great picture you just painted.'cause I, I, I could feel that, like, the same thing for me. Like it was just something, you know, that, you know, like, man, this is, this is what, what should be happening or that, that piece. Yeah. And the creator of the puzzle wants that piece in that spot. And our creator wants us in a certain spot, which is studying his word, walking with him, man. So it all, it all started from a business partner bible study. And that's, that's it. Like we're, we're the face ignited, huh? Right, right. Alright. Alright. I'm going back to you cla you know, we're gonna be jumping back and forth, you know,'cause we're gonna eventually get, get, get, get to the same, uh, ministry that we're doing, but now we got it here. So you are in Laf. Lavia. Yes. And man, you're thinking about theology. You got a desire to, to learn more about God and like, like the world and so what, what, what's next? Yeah. Yeah. So as I said, I was, I was looking for, uh, schools for education to do the, to, to pursue this interest, you know, to pursue this, uh, uh, to, uh, theology. And yeah, I, I found a school in Chicago that I was really, uh, my pastor recommended to it to me and some. Some people who had gone there actually, who had I had known, uh, who had been missionaries in Lafayette, um, uh, told me about it and encouraged me to apply. And it's, the story is really a miracle, honestly. Like, I can't describe it in any, any other way because, uh, I got in and that's, it seemed like a miracle at that point, but there was a, I needed, uh. Before I came to Chicago, I needed eight months. I had eight months to raise a lot of money. So I think it was, well, I don't think I'm gonna say this one, but it, it, it was a lot of money and I had thousands, thousands, thousands. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It is good though.'cause you know, I mean, school in America is expensive and Yeah. So I, it was thousands and. I didn't have any of it and my parents couldn't support me, but I was, I was praying to God over those eight months that he would provide, and I was, uh, doing some fundraising, telling people about it, and I think it was like. A month before I needed to come, and I only had a thousand dollars I needed and that was like only like 10% of what I needed. Pretty much. And without giving us the total, now we, now we know the, there it's, now we know the total for those of us that know how to do math, you know, little less than, but yeah. So, and uh. And I was just praying, Lord, if, if you want me here, you're gonna provide. Right. And I think three weeks before I needed to come, or like three or two weeks before I needed to come, this guy calls me and he's like, how much do you still need? And I told, told him the sum. He was like, um, God put me on my, on my heart to give it to you. Wow. And, and I was so overjoyed. I remember where I was, I was in the balcony. Uh, and I was just really thankful that. God had provided a way for me to come here, and ever since he's been, uh, he's been very faithful in providing for me. And I can just say that it's fully back race. Like I, it hasn't been me, you know? And, uh, Gary, Gary's been, uh, been hearing my, my testimony is over and over, oh yeah. Each semester of how God has just been providing funds and, and possibility for me to be here. Man, that's, that, that, that, that's amazing. That he'll provide. Now let, let me ask you this. Uh, so your whole life, you're out there, right? In your country? Mm-hmm. How hard was it after the provision to leave? Like what, what did you leave behind? You had parents, brothers, sisters, like, what you got? Yeah, that's, that is a sacrifice that I, I knew that I was gonna have to leave my family behind. I, I'm the oldest of, uh, five siblings, so, um, that was not seeing them grow up, uh, for these couple years. It's, it's definitely been hard. Uh, but I, I see it as a, as a good thing after all. I think it's, um. God, God is using this time, you know, and, and I think it's gonna be gonna be worth it. And I've already seen the fruit and just, I don't know, meeting people from, from Chicago, from the prison ministry, like, yeah, I would, would've never imagined that, like even like four years ago, you know? And um, yeah, so it's definitely, definitely been worth it. And honestly like Chicago has been amazing. Like I. Where I'm from, like we don't have skyscrapers and stuff like that. So coming here, it's like you look up and you see, you see the whole city and it's crazy. I still can't get used to it. No, no, no. What is it about over there that, that we would like, like, you know what I'm saying? Like what, what, what is, uh, your country known for like, right. Um. I think you, you guys really enjoy the nature part. Yeah. It's, it's, uh, very peaceful in this, in that sense. A lot of trees, uh, seashore and I think you would find that culture interesting. Like it's just, it's just different. It's kind of hard to describe. It's when, when you are there, you see it, but, uh, yeah. Okay. No. Yeah, I love the woods, man. I love hiking. I love fishing. So maybe I'm gonna have to go on, uh, me and Gary are gonna have to go on to say on a ministry trip out there, but, uh, no. Yeah. All right, Gary, we we'll go back to you. So now the business partner and introduce to the Bible study. You feel like, man. This is what God wants me. I know. You, you, you gave that, that picture one with like the puzzle, like, man, something you euphoric, I believe you said. Mm-hmm. So what, what, what, what, what happens next? What, what does that lead your you to do or you in your life like? Yeah. Well, a lot of it you had one of the hardest things and we taught a couple weeks ago in Cook County about, uh, the passage and the guys were challenging us on it where it says if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. If your hand, and some of the guys are like, what is God telling us to, to cut off our arm? And so I gave them the story of what happened with me because I had built a whole lifetime of high school and college to build this core group of friends, you know, that I needed, you know, their, and when I came to Christ and started to boldly share with them, you know, you lose a lot of friends then at that point in time. So that's what you had, you totally changed. But then God replaces them with people like Manny that I met and, uh, godly brothers. So that, you know, that just completely changed. The parting went away and the. You know, all the stuff that I was involved in went away and you just start getting more involved in, in doing kingdom work, you know? And I didn't meet Manny till, um, it was probably like, uh, 10 years after I became a believer. Okay. Yeah. I didn't, I didn't know him, so I didn't, and I didn't know anything about prison ministry at all. Right. You know, so, so, okay. During those 10 years, like prison ministry. Okay. Let, let, I guess, let me ask you this, uh, those 10 years you're serving, God, you know, you're a believer, you're growing probably, you know, not probably, you're growing in your faith. Right? How, how did you view. Prisoners or even never gave it a thought. Okay. To be honest, by God's grace, I never thought about prison. I never knew anybody that was in jail or prison. You know, growing up out in the western suburbs, you know, you don't, there's no gangs or anything out there, so, uh, you never really gave it a thought. To be honest, I never, I never knew anybody that was in prison. I never gave it a thought. And, uh, it's funny though, the first time Manny brought me into Danville with him. Uh, and he introduced me to come up and speak. One of the first things he said is, uh, you know, Gary's never spent time in prison. So that's just because he never got caught. So you, you always, and he kept a lawyer and a retainer ready to be on call. But, uh, you know what I, I, I want to eventually get, uh, to how you met pastor man, because I think that's an interesting story. But what, what about you kLab, uh, um, prison, like, uh, before coming to Chicago? You're, you're out there, right? Uh, the prison ministry or even you have any experience with anybody behind bars out there? Yeah. See, that's a good way to put it. Like I just never really gave it a thought. And that's, I think that shows just about like people in general. Like, uh, they usually either see pri prison or jail as something that, that's like, we should despise it. Or just like, you kind of forget about it. They're the outcast, outcast of society and what really got me. I got the spark going and for me in this ministry was, so I, yeah, I had never had any experience before that. But one of my friends invited me specifically, like, he said, Hey, would you wanna come with me to shadow me in, uh, in Cook County Jail on one Monday night? And what really caught my attention is how, how those guys who the, who the world or society sees as forgotten. They don't need a second chance. Uh uh, we've kind of given up on them, leave it to the system. Uh, I saw that they have a really, a hunger for God, like they are, uh, you stand, stand face to face with the guy who's like all tattooed up a face at him and stuff like that. And, and he's just like you. He's human deserving and not just deserving needing of, uh, God's love. And that just like totally changed my world. I never looked back. I I want to keep serving each one. And either Yeah, no, amen. That, that, that's deep. That that, man, I love how you, how you put it.'cause we, um, even the, the Bible says, right, that man looks at the outward appearance. Right. But, but God looks at the heart, you know what I'm saying? And you got to see him up close and Exactly. But, uh, yeah, you know what, Gary, um, tell us how you met, uh, pastor Manny Mill.'cause basically that, that that's what led you to, to be into house and prison ministry. So. Yeah. He, he, he would always tell people when he would introduce me, he goes, I met Gary by Divine Providence, uh, because people, yeah, when, so anyway, what it, the way it happened was my wife and I were married, uh, for about, so it was 2001. We were married for about seven years, eight years. And we had three boys. And our youngest, Luke was only about four months old. So I met him on the 4th of July, 2001. We had gotten up that day. My wife was probably up all night with. Our baby, you know? And so, but we went to the 4th of July parade. We came back and she just wanted to take a nap. And so I said, come on boys, we're getting outta the house. Make, you know, quiet the house. So we went to this park just a few blocks from our house, and I remember I sat down, I had the baby in my arms, Luke, he's only four months old. And there was this guy playing Frisbee with this son, and he's, and uh, I just noticed him. It was, it was Manny. He was playing catch with Howard. He kept saying, throw it here, Howard, throw it here, Howard. And, uh, I didn't think anything of it. And I, and then, uh, after a little while, he went and sat down at a, on a bench and he opened his Bible. And I tell people when I think about 99 times out of a hundred, I would not go, especially when I have a baby with me. I got two other boys I'm watching, going up and down slides. I wouldn't have time to go talk to a stranger, but something inside of me compelled me. I saw him with his Bible and I just wanted to tell him, you know. I was a believer too, so I think I went up there and I said something like, Hey, I'm impressed that you can do devotions when you're with your boys. I can never pull that off. And Manny, I didn't know Manny. Okay. Yeah. Now I know him. It's a funny story because his eyes got as big as sausage. He's like, are you a Christian? And before long he had me over in his, uh, he went over to his car, opened his trunk. He's giving me brochures about the ministry and I was being cordial with him. I was listening and being polite, but again, I had no interest in going into, he was telling me about how they go into the prisons and everything, and, and I was just, oh, thank you. Thank you. What, what was your initial reaction when you heard prison ministry for coming from? Well, I was just like, yeah, it's not for me. I'm not interested, but I immediately fell in love with Manny, his enthusiasm for the Lord, you know, I was a believer. I could tell he took it really seriously. And, uh, so he closed me for a lunch just a few days later. We went to a nice Cuban restaurant in Naperville and we spent a couple hours together telling me all about the ministry. And then in that lunch he closed me on, on going into prison with him. And I was like, yeah, sure.'cause I really love spending time with him. Yeah. I mean, when you meet a brother in Christ like that Yeah, we have, we really connected. We connected big time and so I was like, yeah, I'll go wherever you wanna go. So, uh, we, I remember it was, uh, we met like in July and this was like in September, we went to, uh, Danville. To, uh, do a Sunday morning service. Oh, man. You, you went straight to a prison, huh? Yeah. Yeah. That didn't even like a county. So he seems like we got up at three and the one thing I wanted to know was, he says, pick me up at my house at three 30.'cause you gotta get down to Danville by an eight o'clock service, so you gotta drive. He's like, pick me up at three 30. I wanted to see if he was the same if. High energy guy at three 30 in the morning and he is, he's, oh yeah. No way. He's, oh wow. So, uh, I was wondering if his neighbors liked when he would like be yelling in the park in the driveway, you know, when we're going at three 30 in the morning. Right. But anyway, so yeah, and I would just love the fellowship, but I do remember, so we get to Danville and I get out of the car and we're walking toward, and I see the barbed wire. There was a moment where I was like, what have I gotten myself into? You know, it was just something I'd never seen. I'd never even seen a prisoner jail before. I was like, wow, this is some serious stuff. So that was when I, but I, you know, we went in and the thing about it is I really don't have a good representative sample of what a typical IIC looks like. Because everything we do, whether it's Monday nights, we have 20, 30 guys who are voluntarily coming to study God's word. When I went to Danville, we'd have a couple hundred guys in a Sunday morning service who voluntarily coming to worship. So you really don't meet. The people you meet are some of the strongest Christians you'll ever meet. You know, they, they've been broken, they've had everything stripped away from them. They've lost family, they've lost finances. They've, they're gonna be locked up. They've lost their freedom and a weird sort of way. They have, they are right where God wants us, you know, completely broken. And then if they get introduced to Jesus, then they have the time to study his word. I gave a guy in Cook County Jail a book a couple weeks ago. The week after I saw him, I said, Hey, have you had a chance to take a look at that book? He's like, yeah, I read it twice. You know? So they have an advantage over us in a lot of ways, because a lot of the things that we're still clinging to, they've been stripped of, so God can grow them exponentially. Those are the guys I've met in prison with Manny. It's been really interesting, man. That's, that's a profound statement. Like God has them right where he wants them, in a sense, and they, they have no distractions like we do out here. You know, like work, family, children. Tv, phone, uh, social media. I mean, we're pulled in all type of directions and you're right. I remember one of the brothers, I think it was Bert who said that he misses that, I forget how many years he did like 21. Was it like 21 years? Yeah. The freedom, he misses the freedom. No, he said he missed the time he had to spend in the word. Mm-hmm. Like when he was behind bars, he's like, man, that was some of the most precious time. I believe So, something like that, that he said that, but he missed it. He's convicting for us, you know? It's like, oh, but you, you spend this, this much time, uh, just praying or reading God's word. It's like, wow. Yeah. So, okay. You, you gave the example of going into Danville for the first time, Barb wire or not. Now, what about you, Klaus? I know you said your friend invited you. Yeah. Uh, what, what, what was going through your mind before you step foot into the prison? You know? Yeah. Honestly, I. I don't remember exactly what, what happened, but I do remember, um, it was very, like, there was one guy who got saved that night, and that just, it, it immediately, uh, showed to me that, wow, there's some, God is doing something in this place. Like it is, like, like you said, from the outside, it's barbed wire. It's like late in the, in the night, it's everything's dark and you go in and it's kinda like, I don't know, like eerie, what's the right word? Yeah. Uh, but. But you go in and there's this light, you know, there is this light where people come together as brothers and they have their beat up bibles and like, I'm, I'm looking at this and I, I think I had the thought where it's like, well, if the, if the apostles could see this mm-hmm. Like what they did, like they were martyred for, for this like 2000 years later in Cook County Jail, these guys who are, who are incarcerated. Done bad things, uh, now come together as brothers to study God's word and to pray and to, to yeah. Love each other. And I just thought it was something I had never seen before and I just fell in, fell in love with it. Yeah, man, that's, that's deep. That, that, that, that's like a pro, pro profound. Just when you,'cause I, I, I see it too. You know, like you go there and, and we, you, I know you mentioned Gary's like 20, 30 guys sometimes. I know it's been, yeah, it's about 30. So there's a lot of guys that come in. And le let, lemme ask you that. I know you mentioned one guy, but what did it feel like to have 30 guys all around you that, you know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, I don't know. What was that? What was that? Perspective, I guess mindset. It's, they're very, they're very real, you know, so they can see through you almost, you know, if, if you're, if you're like hiding something or a little uncomfortable or something like that, they can like see and they're not afraid to call it out almost. So you have to, when you go in there, you have to be very real. You're like. This is my heart, like God has changed my life. Uh, this is how I live it out, and I want you to have the same. So, uh, so when I go there, that's like always our prayer, you know, like, God, just be in this room, you know, be, be with us and help us to, uh, share what, how we've been transformed to them. And, um, yeah, it's, it's kinda hard to describe when you, when you haven't like experienced that for a viewer, but, um, it is definitely, you can, you can feel that. Yeah. God's God's presence there. Amen. Amen. Now, and uh, uh, Gary, you, you said, I mean, we're talking about the county, the maximum, like 30 guys. You said you walked into a couple hundred guys. So how was that for you? What were you feeling? What were you thinking in that, your first day in, uh, uh, Danville? Yeah, it was, it was powerful because you just, it wasn't what you expected to see men worshiping and, uh, the worship time, the singing, the voices were just, it was just powerful man to see the. The excitement and the enthusiasm. I didn't expect that, you know, in a, in a prison setting. It was funny, God convicted me the first time I went there. I had this interesting experience where afterwards I was talking to this guy George, and, um. Right away my perspective changed because I said, how you doing? He's like, well, I'm getting kind of anxious now because I've been here a long time and I'm gonna be getting out soon. It's getting close to my out date. I said, oh really? When, how much time you got? He goes about seven more years. And to me it was just, we were on two different, seven more years. Wow. I was like, oh man. Well, he must have been down for a long time, right? Yes. So he, uh, and then I said something to him at the end of our conversation, I said, well, I'm gonna be praying for you. As I walked away, the Holy Spirit really convicted me because I really didn't mean it when I said it. I said it almost cliche. And so, uh, one of the things I had in my Bible was a little sheet where I would pray for people every day. I remember writing George's name down. So,'cause I was so convicted that I just said that in a trite way. Yeah. And then it was cool'cause then I would see him four or five times a year for like the next seven years. I still see him at RTO and it's like, um, it was cool. I was invested in his, his walk, you know. To, to be praying for'em like that. You really grow close with people and you're praying for'em like that. Amen. And, and, and, man, you still see'em now, huh? That's amazing. Yeah. He's still part of the ministry. And how, how, how many years ago was this? Well, we first went in, that was 2001. Wow, man. So 24 years ago. Yeah. Man, you've been in, in the ministry that long. That's amazing. Yeah. It's going by. Yeah. Got it. Well, I think you're pointing out a good thing is, is you really have to, you're not just going there and seeing them as like, just as like numbers or, or, or like another inmate that you can like just. Speak a message to like, you have to love them. Like before you even go, you have to prepare your heart to be ready, to like really show them the, the love of Christ. And, uh, that oftentimes look times, looks like, uh, even when you're tired, even when you're like, uh, I, I could be doing better things right now on this Monday night. Like, um, really preparing your heart and, and saying to God, can you help, help me love this person and, and. It's, it's difficult. Like I don't, I don't come from a criminal background and sometimes it's hard for me to, uh, connect with them, right? But there's this, this, uh, this link between us, which is Christ, yes, you can share something in common. And even from like different cultures, you know, uh, there's this, uh. Love of Christ that like transcend transcends all that. And so, yeah. I think you're, you're saying a good thing with, specifically with like prayer? Mm-hmm. Like, or sometimes like, oh yeah, I'll, I'll pray for you. Yeah. And then you kind of forget about it. But, but when you say that, uh, are you actually. Willing to, uh, think about him and pray about him, uh, over the week and stuff like that. So you, you, you know what, uh, uh, I just got me a, a, a bilingual bible, uh, yesterday. It came in the Amazon. So when I went with, uh, with Bob, uh, we did our, you know, in the division nine, right. So we did, uh, the ministry there, and in the end I wrote down the guy's names in the back.'cause man, I'm bad with names. Like, there's guys that I've been seeing for a couple years now and. Yeah, I don't know why. I just, I have a hard time remembering names, so I, I wrote'em in the back of the Bible, like all the guys that, that interacted or came by and be like, man, let me write it down.'cause,'cause I'm gonna forget. And it's very important that to pray, to pray for'em, not just tell'em that we're gonna pray for'em. But, uh, I, I, I know you mentioned something about love, like going, uh, having love to go in there with, but, but, uh, um, maybe talk about what it's been like, the feedback that, that the guys give.'cause I know they're very appreciative. Of, of you guys of going in there, right? Like w what, what, what have you heard from, from the guys? Like, as far as like you consistently coming, you know? Yeah. To, to minister to them, to, to, to beat them. Well, that's the word. Consistency. Yes. Uh, I think the last time I can remember was, um, when, when somebody like really came up to me and said like, thank you, was, um. Oh, was it during Christmas, uh, or Thanksgiving break? I, I forget. Uh, I think it was, it was a holiday. I think it was Christmas. Yeah. We had a Christmas service and the guys guys were like, oh, I, I thought we're not gonna, you're not gonna be here. Yeah. Like,'cause all, all the rest of the ministries are taking a break. There's nobody to like volunteer. And they were just so thankful that we showed up. Yes. And I was like, I didn't even think twice about it. You know, like Right. I, I honestly didn't have anything better to do, but, um, that they really, that they appreciate that we, that that was the better thing. Exactly. Right. Exactly. Um, so I think, yeah, the, the feedback has, has been good because they can see that you, you care. You're not just like, we're not doing it for money. Right. We're not doing it for, I don't know. What else? Fame. Oh no. Right. Like, uh, we're doing it because we, we care and we want to share the good news and, and show them that there's a better way. Amen. Amen. What, what, what about you, Gary? Uh, anything that you've heard from the guys, like from you consistently going? Maybe some feedback, I guess. Yeah, it's, it's funny they say things all the time that, bless, bless me. You know, it's funny when, when Bob Wolfson recruited me, I remember we were outside of RTO one night, like three years ago, and he was telling me about, they wanted me to help. Lead a group. And at the time I was just had a lot of stuff going on in my life and I was like, yeah, I don't have any margin right now to do anything like this. And I remember what Bob said to me. He goes, you know when you do something like this, when you prepare a Monday night service, when you're reading God's word to teach someone else, who's the first person gets taught is you? Yeah. So he said, it won't be a draining experience. It'll be a fulfilling experience. And that's what I've, I've realized I find myself all throughout the week saying. You know, God will do something in my life. I'll see a testimony, I'll see you answer prayer, and I'm like, I'm gonna share this with the guys. Yeah. Bob shares a story about how during CID you've probably heard this story, he said, um, he still read his Bible every day and did his devotions every day, but he, he was getting depressed because he realized he didn't have an outlet. He said it was like the Dead Sea in Israel. It had water coming in, but it had no outlets. And he found that he found fulfillment, and I totally get that now, what he was talking about. I mean, specific experiences, it happens every week. There's something I, one that pops into my head was, I was sharing one time, we were talking about something in the scripture. We were teaching about, you know, looking for accolades from man or looking for accolades from God versus man. And, um, we, uh, I was sharing an experience with them where I felt like inferior. My wife and I were at a social setting and I think I just said, I didn't even realize what I was saying to those guys. And I was like, yeah, I was, I was more concerned with what these people thought of me. Than what God thought of me. And I said, I felt like a loser, you know? And uh, after I got done talking, Vince looks at me, he goes, Gary, you're not a loser. He was like, he was like, rebuke that statement, you know, because like he was blessed me. That happens a lot. Yes. They bless us. And so we're supposed to be there like sharing the gospel with them, but they're sharing with us, they're sharing testimonies with us. And we were walking out. There was one time, here's another good one. Yeah, go there. One time Mark and I went to go visit this guy, Leon. And, um, he was in our class, but then he got moved to another division, so we decided to just go check in on him. So we went and had a visit with him and, uh, we were asking him how things were going and he was telling us about this phone call he had with his daughter. He had a long, young 7-year-old daughter, and he asked her, how's things going? You know, at school? How are things going? She goes, I'm fine, daddy, I'm fine. And he goes, now listen. He goes, I'm your father and you can tell me if things aren't fine. I want you to tell me when things aren't fine. And I was sitting there listening to him, this wisdom, because I have three boys and a lot of times they'll, I'll ask them, how are things going? They'll be, I'm fine, and I let it go. But here was Leon teaching me how to be a better father. I was like, thank you, God, man, I'm getting goosebumps telling you this story. Yes, no, yeah. He, God was using him. He's a brother in Christ behind bars to teach me how to be a better father. Yes. No, and, and you know what? That, that, that, that, that's the the thing too, uh, that you said, uh, a lot of times we think we're going in there to be a blessing to these guys, and we come out blessed from the things they say. Uh, they, they, they have testimony stories or when we ask'em, Hey, well, what, what have you guys been reading? And they open up the scripture, read it, and then they begin to explain. How it's how it spoke to them. And that's like an encouraging Yeah, totally. There's a really good story that it just has been in my mind for, for a long time now, and me, Gary and I experienced this. Um, so we were, we were going through the book of Acts, right? And, um, in the middle of it, I, I feel like we need to take a little break to just go, um. Uh, just go to the book of Matthew, sermon of the Mount, just like basics of the, uh, of what Jesus preached, of the gospel of the kingdom. And so I was like, okay, we're gonna take, we're gonna take a break and, uh, spend some time in, uh, Matthew, the Sermon of the Mount. And so, as you know, Matthew's, uh, sermon of the Mount opens with, uh, the beatitudes. Blessed are, are the meek, blessed are the peacemakers. Blessed are so on and so forth. And so we, we teach you that. And at the end, I give them a practical thing to do. This is just, just awesome. So I, I gave them, uh, divided them into pods and I said, okay, your pod, you're gonna choose one beatitude that you're going to live out this week. So, for instance, you're gonna be the, the peacemakers, then you're gonna be the, the humble ones, you know, and just keep each other accountable throughout the week and see how you do. So the next week they come back and. Uh, there's this testimony that two of the guys tell, uh, one of them is, uh, Vincent and one of them is, um, Isaac, right? And, and Vincent is this, this bigger guy. And Isaac is this just smaller guy, uh, who's uh, they wouldn't seem like they interact a lot, right? Uh, but. Um, so Vincent was in a week, there was a thing that happened where he got into an altercation, he got super mad, he was about to get in a fight, and he was, uh, ready to throw fists. And, um, Isaac, this guy who, who wasn't that bible study, he's like, Hey man, uh, be a peacemaker. You know, that that beatitude that their pod had chosen and he didn't get into a fight. And that's, that was a testimony That was, that they shared. I was like, wow. Like that was so encouraging to me. Yes. That Christ's message, Christ's words, the very opening lines of, of his most important teaching, like they work, they, they impact people's lives. They, they are very practical. Their application even for 2000 years later in Cook County jail, it, it. Change somebody's, uh, heart in that moment, you know? Yeah, yeah. So like, so many stories like that. Yeah. Gary could probably also go for like hours, but Oh, yeah. Yeah. Go ahead Gary. Go, go for hours. We got, we got time. Is is, is there anything, anyone that comes to mind? I, I know you, you, you guys mentioned on, on the ride here, you guys were discussing some testimonies and, uh, you mentioned something about, uh, public speaking. I don't know if you wanna share that right now. Yeah, that was, that was good because, uh. I told Klaus when I was younger, I mean when we had to give speeches in class, it was just always anxiety inducing. And so as I became an adult, even as I was a Christian, I would try to just avoid those situations. I didn't realize what was happening at the time. It was actually Satan putting this fear to keep me to be less effective for the kingdom. You know?'cause if you're just hiding from those opportunities, so I won't tell the whole story because there's a long story about how. God broke me through that, that fear. But I was telling him that there was a person I spoke to at church, uh, who back when I was still kind of avoiding social or public speaking, um, I remember she said, I see you as a leader of men. Uh, I kinda laughed like Sarah in the Bible. I just kinda laughed at no, you know. How, how did you see yourself when, when they made that statement? What was he you just saw, you just saw I would do stuff behind the scenes. You know, I'm not gonna be a leader of men. Yeah. Now I kinda laugh'cause I didn't even think about it. Now we go every Monday night and we're, we're like, we'll be going with Bob to Danville and we're preaching before big groups of men, you know? So something I laughed about that I thought was never possible. Now God, you know, has kind of got me over the. The fear, I dunno if you want me to tell that whole story of Oh, yeah, yeah. Real quick. This is our, our group leader. So he did become a leader of man, you know, this is the brother that leads us in Cook County division 11. And I just wanna share, man, that it's been a, a blessing to, to serve with my brother here. And man, you, you are a great leader. You are a leader of man, and I, I, I, I, I appreciate you brother. You've definitely been a blessing in my life and it's definitely, uh, given me a heart for. Yeah. For a ministry that I didn't really CC myself being a part of, you know? Mm-hmm. Like, I, I felt like I was in a, like in a, I, I guess we'll get into it a little bit later, but before I started this podcast, I didn't even think about prison ministry. I know I asked you guys that question, but prison ministry was like not even close on my mind. Mm-hmm. Even though I had been, uh, previously incarcerated, I know we got some food coming, you know, so that's why the dog's barking. But anyways, uh, but yeah, I didn't like. The way I, I viewed my, my life before I started the podcast. I had been saved for about 18 years, somewhere around there. And, uh, like, I was good. My marriage was good. You know, my, I had my house, you know, I felt like I, I told people, I, I felt like I was like Moses when he was in the wilderness. Mm-hmm. You know, he was, he had his wife, he had his kids. He was tending the sheep just minding his own business until God called him to go back. And I feel, when I launched this podcast and I started interviewing people. Then it led me to connect with Coin Nia House, uh, national Ministries, pastor Manny Mill, Michael Berman, Sarah Gonzalez, and just a bunch of people. It's like God used this to lead me to where I'm at now with, with with Coin Ea House. And it's definitely, uh, been a blessing. So it's like, it's almost like, like Moses, he sent him back to Egypt. Mm-hmm. And like with me, he is like, all right, like almost like go back to your past. Right. And I remember the first day I stepped foot into Cook County, man, it was like. Like when I, when I went in, you know when we walk in and you see the, the circle? Yeah. With the tower in the middle. As soon as I seen that, something like in my subconscious is like, I remember this. Yeah. I remember being there back in 1997. And it was, uh, you mentioned, I think eerie, a eerie feeling. Mm-hmm. That's definitely what I felt, man. But, uh, so like, there's no, no reason why I want to go back here, you know, like that type of thing. Yeah, no, but yeah, like, uh, it's weird'cause uh, I go in there and, uh, people ask me are, are you, are you like nervous when you go in there? I'm like, yeah, but, uh, you know what I tell them, uh, I'm more nervous about the CEOs for real, like, uh. It there, there's this mentality that you had back then, almost like us versus them kind of mentality and I, I believe God is still breaking that in me. It was the same with Jason who used to go in with us.'cause he spent time in Cook County jail. And I was telling, I think I was telling the guys the other night, there's a, you have to push a button when the doors are locked. You know, he would never push the button. He always thought he was gonna get in trouble for pushing the button. And I was like, just push the button. And then if we pushed it once, he's like, don't push it again. He is still from when he was, uh, remember it's. Felt when he was the cos. Yeah. Yep. You got those, those feelings that are are hard to, to, to leave. Oh, but but you were, you were going back to something, uh, Gary, uh, you, you, you asked, Hey, should I tell the whole story? Now you gotta tell us or maybe summarize whatever you want. Yeah. So, so yeah. So I always would wanna avoid. Public speaking, but when I became a believer, this ministry I was involved in, Christian Business Men Association, they would have these big lunches where they would have someone get up and give their testimony at a luncheon. And um, so there was these guys that ran it, they kept asking me to do it, and I didn't really wanna do it. You know,'cause it just gave me a lot of anxiety. I didn't wanna get up and speak in front of people, but they kept kind of pursuing me and I was telling clouds I would avoid them. You know, just hide. And I look back at that, how silly that was back then.'cause the avoidance is almost as anxiety inducing as just doing the, the public speaking, you know? So. Uh, I had this parallel experience where my oldest son, Michael, was about five years old, and he got scared one time at a movie theater and he didn't wanna go in anymore. And me, as his father was, broke my heart to see him dealing with this like, irrational fear. So one day I took him early before the movie started and, um, I knew he'd be kicking and screaming. He says a little boy, he doesn't wanna go in the dark theater and, uh. I got him some popcorn and some candy, and we went and sat down and he was scared, but then I, I was like saying to him as his father, don't worry, I'm gonna protect you. I'm your father. I'm not gonna let anything happen to you. I got my, he's young enough, five years old where he was sitting on my lap. I was holding him close. And he felt comfort in that. And he watched a movie and he was, he got totally over that fear. And, um, I told Klaus, I can remember the exact spot when we were walking out the door of the theater, I didn't hear an audible voice, but I knew it was God. I said, when are you gonna let me do with that, with you? When are you gonna let me do that with you? And I was like, wow. Yeah. That's the same thing I, I was telling Michael, don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. I got you. And so the next day I called those guys and said, yeah, I'll speak. Then they set me up for like five different luncheons to speak at, and I can see it now, what was going on because I wouldn't be doing this right now. Even with all that, where God broke me through. And then my church had me speak at church on Christmas Eve and then. All these things kept coming up. God just pushes you. Yeah. Into places'cause he wants to use you. So now I don't have that anymore and, but I wouldn't be doing what we're doing. Right. Even when we started, mark asked me to do it. I said, well, I'll go. But as long as you lead and, and I'll be the secondhand man, you know, but, you know, God just keeps pushing as we expand. It's amazing how many different studies we have going and by. Yeah. So we, everybody's gonna have to become a leader eventually, you know, as we grow, you know, what they do. Do you wanna talk like about the, the ministry? Like, uh, how it's grown and what, what divisions are being? Yeah, so we started out, when I first went there with, with Mark, we were in division six, upper D and a cool story is that the, the security there said, well, we can let you come in. But you can only hit, we can't mix tiers'cause they separate guys because there's problems with guys. So they separate'em. There's four tiers of 50 guys. They said you can only have people from dg. That's it.'cause if we mix tiers, we're gonna have problems. Sure. So, uh, we started just with guys from dg, like four guys the first, first week. And um, but God showed us so much favor. Now we have, they let us have guys from every tier. And in three years, four years almost. We've never had any incidents, you know. It's fascinating. I mean, we've probably had less than people teach in grade school. I mean, in terms of like trouble in the classroom. We've had nothing, man. We've had nothing. We just have guys that are wanting study God's word. I mentioned a, yeah, yeah. An episode where I remember as well where there were, there was a. Point in time where not a lot of guys were coming and a lot of chairs were empty, and we would pray that God would fill the chairs and, and he answered that prayer. Now we're all sitting on the floor. We were literally sitting on the floor every time we had to find like basketballs and stuff like that. You can sit and it's like, yeah, just answer prayer of coming from, from what, four guys at the beginning? Yeah, like four guys on the list now, uh, 25 plus. And even. Uh, yeah, people. And, and so to answer your question, so yeah, we're in, uh, upper D in Division 11. We're in upper C in division 11. I think Michael Berman goes Sunday night to division nine. Bob goes to division nine. Mark goes, there's two other groups. Mark and Brian both go to division six. The women go to three XI think on Saturdays. So the, it's really expanding and we just got, Klaus has been recruiting more guys from Moody and, uh, we, at our last breakfast we had a lot of new volunteers, so I'm sure we'll be breaking out into other areas, man, mean, Manny has a vision. That will be in every tier. You know, it's like, amen. I was telling the guys last night that our, the mission of the ministry is really, it's like starting a campfire. You know? You can't take one little match and try to light a big log. It just won't work, you know, but you build it. You, you create environment where you have oxygen coming through. We've got And then so you But we we're like the match. Okay. And the guys we're teaching God's word to are like the paper that you put under the logs and then when those logs, I mean, what I see is that they're going to, this fire's gonna start and they're gonna be in Danville and Dixon and Stateville all over the state. They're taking. What they're learning and then taking it to where there'll be revival all over the state in all these prisons. Amen. And what you mean is, uh, eventually some of these guys have gone downstate. Basically the guys at Cook County, uh, they get found guilty and then they go to all these various prisons and. They're gonna, the hope is that they'll take what they've learned and take it wherever they're going to all these, uh, prisons. Right. Yeah. That's kinda the heart. That's kinda the heartbreaking thing is there's, we get to know these guys. We love these guys. Yes. And then they're just gone and they're, they're going to, we, we had a, you don't even know this yet, but last night we found out that all of DJ got emptied out, so we lost a bunch of guys. Oh, no way. Yeah. So one of our tiers is just completely turned over 50 new guys. So all the guys that were in our study are gone to other parts of Cook On. Oh, no way. So it's, see in our heart it's like, oh, we we're gonna miss these guys. Yeah. Like Rico, there's, there's this guy who's coming in, he's like, uh, our translator guy. And we're like, we don't wanna miss him.'cause uh, he, he's translating for the Spanish speaking guys. Right. And we're like, we don't wanna miss him. We're gonna keep him to himself. But it's, it's that. I think God sometimes can teach us that. Like, hey, it's okay to let them go.'cause maybe he's gonna use them in a different Yeah. I think he's going to upper sea. Right. And then like there's a bible study that we, uh, other people do from our ministry. Yeah. So, uh, we just have to kind of trust the plan, you know? Amen. You know, it, it is funny you guys say that'cause I went to the division nine where Bob y yesterday. So we get on the deck, you know, we're walking right where everybody's at. And all I hear is Omar, it, it was one of the guys that was with us, a, a a Spanish speaking, uh, uh, Jorge George. Mm-hmm. He remembered you. Yeah. So you guys probably remember, I don't, I don't wanna describe him out here, but Yeah. I'll tell you guys later, but yeah, Omar, man, how you doing it? And it's somebody that we to for months and then he, like you said, got moved for whatever reason, and then you see him and you're able to connect and you see that he's still going. In a Bible study, even on this deck, you know, he's there with, with Bob and with the other, with the other men that are there. But you know what, I wanna go back to something you said about not having, uh, uh, uh, any problems, incidents? You mentioned 30 different guys. There's guys from different backgrounds, different gangs at times, and you y you wanna talk a little bit about that? How they interact and greet each other? Yeah, we, we've never seen anything. We've never had even like disrespect or. Anybody interrupting the class or anything like that. It's really fascinating. I mean, they're all just there to study God's word. They're very respectful and we don't see anything in between them. I don't know anything about who's not supposed to be together or who's from different gangs. I don't know anything about that, but we've just not witnessed anything where there's any animosity. Yeah. The thing is sometimes like, uh, the guys come for different motives, right? So maybe they just want to like, get out of this, their cell and or like, I don't know, exchange a message. You never know. Yeah. But, um, the interesting thing is, uh, the. For, for instance, there was this guy named Nick who started coming like six months ago, somewhere roughly around that, and he was, I don't know, like didn't really pay attention, was kinda a little bit of a troublemaker, like not, not. Uh, being a little distracting. Distracting. Yeah. That's rule make. Yeah. The in that sense. Yeah. Um, and we're like, I don't know, didn't really give up on him, but just like, just be there in the background. But now, like, uh, a couple weeks ago, literally like 3, 4, 4 weeks ago, he comes up to me and he starts asking all these questions. He has a conviction of sin and he's been listening and, uh, I think he wrote, wrote out like he's been reading the sermon. No, the proverbs, right? All the parables. All the parables. All, all the parables, no explanation. Oh, okay. And he has like tons of paper with, with tons of questions and we're like, where, what happened? What happened? Like, what happened to you in just six months? Uh, God has transformed his heart, flipped it totally upside down and he just, I think that was convicting for, for both of us. Yes. To see and for you probably too. Uh, seeing, uh, that we can never give up on, on these people. Yes. You know, they're, uh, God can save everybody. His grace is, uh. It's free for everybody. You, you, you know what the, the, um, my, my, my perspective changed on that.'cause I know, uh, uh, people have brought up, oh man, should, guys come that are not really paying attention. And, and my perspective changed when a brother on a podcast here shared his testimony. He was behind bars and he said that the chaplain will come to a. Like, Hey, hey, uh, you wanna come to our Bible study? Like, man, get outta here with your, with your fairytales. That was his mentality. Yeah. With your fairytales and your fake God or whatever. And week after week, he'll kept rejecting the chaplain where he said he realized that I think he was like locked down and they would only come out like an hour a day. So he was thinking like, man, if I go out, that's another extra hour I get to be outta my cell. And he then he said, man, maybe they got water or a snack, so let, let me go. So that, that was his mindset, right? You know, like you mentioned people go for various reasons. So that's the reason he went. So he said he went and he just sat there just to get out of a cell, but he's listening. He said at the end that the chaplain or the pastor said a prayer. He said he went back to his cell and all night he just kept pondering that question and one question. From the prayer from the Bible study sparked the, his mind on seeking God, and that eventually led him to faith. So my, my, my perspective on that one, you know, maybe some guys come just to talk or to see, uh, somebody from a different pod or whatever. It is like, man, the word's going forth. Yes, yes. And the word's gonna do what the word's gonna do. You know what I'm saying? We don't, only God knows why, why they need to be in, in, in, in that Bible study. Right. See, I love that. I love that because I think that's what we were trying to do, right? It's Christ is inviting us to, to see the world from a different perspective. He's trying to almost like capture our imagination. Like sermon of the Man, I, sorry, I keep going back that, but like it, the, the opening words are, are. Sorry. The opening words of the sermon of of the mound are, um, blessed. Uh, blessed are, are the, sorry, the poor No, but bring it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That you got the Bible, man. That's what we're here for. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. No, you're good. So the first words of the Sermon of the Mount is, blessed are the poor in spirit for the kingdom of heaven is theirs, right? So blessed are the poor in spirit and that, uh. Christ is Christ comes and speaks to these people, right? And they, they have this, this one worldview, their, their whole life, uh, they've seen that. Blessed are those like exalted ones, the kings, the, the, this is how the world functions. Right. But Christ is inviting us to put on a different worldview, a different lens. Right. And, and that's, that's his like invitation. And Christ has sparked something in me. He sparked something in you and Gary, right? And in that story you just said, right there was this. This little phrase, little word, little verse, something that just captured his imagination. And Christ is inviting him to see the world in a different way, right? They come the, the inmates, right? They come from different backgrounds, totally different backgrounds, and a lot of times they are very dark, right? They're, they have been fed a story that, um, their purpose in life is to kill, to destroy, to do all these things. But then finally they hear Christ and and what Christ can do and what how. See he sees the world and. It captures you and God changes your heart and starts changing your heart. And that, I think that is like what, every time I go, I, I, I want them to see that, you know, I want them to see how I live that message out, how I see the world through Christ and how they can also have that transformation. Right. Um, so yeah, just going off of that, yeah. I was, I was telling Klaus that I was convicted. That when I saw Nick's enthusiasm and last night, I was asking him if he truly understood and he was just like a kid on Christmas morning. You know, he was so excited. I was convicted that why didn't I expect that? You know, we presenting the gospel, we're hoping that happens. When it happens, you're like, surprise. You know? It's like we should, we should expect that. I mean, look the disciples 2000 years ago, they, it spread throughout the world, you know, because there's a hunger in every human heart. Yes. Especially the ones, like I said, with these guys, they're, they come there. They know they're gonna be facing a long, long, because the guys we have are all pretty much all facing long, long sentences, you know? Yeah. And so they, they're, they're desperate. They're dry, and then they, they get this, you know, living water and, and they just want more. It's really cool to see. Amen. Oh yeah. There's definitely been like a, like a blessing that some of the, the stories. Is there any other stories that come to mind? So from the, your years of ministry that maybe that. It's because of this story that keeps me going. You know what I'm saying? Like keeps me driving, like he says sometimes. I know you mentioned it surprises me. Isn't that what pastor Man, he says, Lord, surprise me. Well, what does he say? What did he say? Surprise me. I thought when you say what keeps you going? Yeah. What keeps me going is really not even the Monday nights, it's that thing that happens throughout the week where you're like, I gotta share this with the guys. I gotta share this with the guys. You know, God speaks to you and you're like, yeah, I want to, you can't wait to share. He's given you. Yeah. Like, and uh, so that's really what keeps, keeps me going just to, just being in God's will. There's nothing more fulfilling than being in God's will. And, uh, it's like my church that I go to is, uh, missionary Christian Missionary Alliance. So they're a real focus on overseas. International workers, you know, spread the gospel and all these unreached people groups. And one of the people that's on Manny's board, Kathy, she asked me to speak at missions week. And I was like, well, yeah, I'm not a missionary. You know why? But then when I was sharing, I was realizing that what, what is Cook County Jail? It's 5,000 unreached. People who need to hear the gospel are headed for hell. Mostly and they need to hear the gospel. I mean, so how is that different than a country in Africa or a country in the Middle East? It's 5,000 people that we've been given the opportunity. I mean, we're right in God's sweet spot Yeah. Of sharing truth with lost people. Amen. Amen. Just, yeah, I, uh, nothing like necessarily specific comes to mind, but like, I think those, um, those little moments when you, when you go on a Monday night and you're kinda, I don't know, like tired, not really into it. Then this, there's just this one conversation with, with a guy who just, um, uh, shares something you really needed, not, not just that, that I need, I needed to give to him, but a lot of times, as you said before, those, they, um, they really speak to you like you see how they live and how hungry they are for God, and how their lives have been transformed. And then you're just like, oh. Wow. It's, it's like, it's a blessing for me. Like I, I tell the guys all the time, like, the stories that you tell, the, the testimonies that you tell are really a blessing for me, and it keeps me going. So the answer to your question, what keeps me going, I think it's that seeing that transformation even in those like small, small moments. Amen. And I, I, I know you, you mentioned that they're, he's bringing, you recruited some guys from Moody. So WW what is it that, that you tell the, these young. These young men, I mean teenagers, right? I mean, maybe early twenties. I mean, I usually look for, uh, little older guys who are more, uh, mature and who are ready to disciple. I, I usually tell them that this is a ministry of discipleship, so it's not just like being out there'cause like. I teach pretty much, uh, every Monday night, and Gary teaches, and, and a lot of times we see ministry as, yeah, like we we're gonna like transfer this information to, to this other person. But really I tell them it's, it's discipleship. It's, um. You have to be ready to love them. You have to be wise in a lot of situations. Uh, you have to have some wisdom, you know? Yes. So it's good to have a little bit of maturity. Um, so that's what it usually, I like, I I paint the picture that it's, it's a relationship with them, you know, it's coming there to, to love them. Amen. Well, I, I know you mentioned wisdom. I would say the, uh, the discernment as well. You need to have discernment when you're in that environment. What would you say about that? Gary Leggo? Oh yeah, for sure. For sure. You have to be, yeah, you have to be discerning because they, they're, they're, they're there to study God's word and I think everybody's pretty much there as genuine, genuinely interested, but then they still have some of their old man, you know, that, uh. Seeps in. Like one guy last night, the, the officer wasn't letting him come to church and so he almost came to blows with the officer over not letting him come to church. You know? So they still have some of their old habits that haven't died, you know, and, um, so that's, you just have to be patient, I think of that, you know? Right. Just be discerning. Yeah. It's, uh, it's, when you were talking about other stories, I thought of this one where one of the things this ministry has really changed for me is. I mean, when we didn't know or think about prison, you think, well, those are the really bad people. And then, you know, like my kids or the people I know are good people and there's this huge chasm, but now we meet these guys and we study God's word with them for six months and you're just, you become more amazed. Not that they're coming to Bible study, but they, that they committed the crime that they committed. You know, you become more amazed, like, how did you do that? You actually gotta say that again. You become more amazed, not that they're coming to Bible study. That they committed the crime that they committed. You know, how did you do that? Yeah. You know, it's just Satan gets a hold of him. They're, they're, they're in an environment where they're, they're lied to that if you do this, you'll get more status and you, there won't be any consequences. I mean, just like he does to all of us. There won't be any consequences. You'll get away with it. And, uh, because when you meet them now, it's been fascinating now that they've been doing it for three years. What happens sometimes now is I stumble upon. Uh, there's guys in our class and I remember hearing the news story just like three months ago. I heard that I was driving in the car. I heard about this story of what happened. Now the guys in our, in our class and, um, so there's just this narrow margin between. Uh, we would call the good guys and the bad guys, you know? Yeah. One time Manny and I were doing a, a big service down in Springfield, uh, prison down there, I forget the name of it, Jacksonville I think. And, um, we were walking out and I just had this epiphany'cause we were walking out, we had just been, these guys were praising the Lord for like three hours and a really hot gym, but they were there. And they, they, Manny was preaching and we walked out and it was a shift where the officers were coming in in the parking lot and I was thinking, you know, the world says that those are the bad guys and that these are the good guys. But if Jesus returned right now, I'd be in heaven with those guys. And I don't know about these guys. You know, it's funny. Isn't that funny that the world looks at, uh, a certain way, you know? Um, but, and there's not that much difference. Like, well, for example, there's, you asked me to think of stories. Well, another story I thought of. We had this kid, a Muslim kid that was coming to our class for a long time, and at first he came almost like a Pharisee. When we were discussing the Trinity, he wanted to ask me gotcha questions to say, well, yeah, well, when Jesus said, father, uh. Why have you forsaken me on the cross? It just shows that Jesus and wasn't, and the father were not one, and so we were having a lot of those sort of debate discussions. I thought he was just there to trip us up. Yeah. But then after like a couple of months, one time he grabbed me after class and he, with tears in his eyes, poured out his whole case. He told me every detail. What happened, and he even showed me like, I shouldn't have had that beer. I shouldn't have had that second beer. I know when he's telling me all the things that went wrong that night, and I thought, wow, he really has a soft heart. And he's, and, uh, there's not that much difference between me and him. No. Oh, you, you know what, uh, had a, you a, a man? Ronaldo. Yeah, yeah. Hudson. Yeah, I saw that. And he, he said something during the interview, like, uh. Like I, I, I, I am, I'm the one that committed the offense, but I am not the offense. Mm-hmm. You know, like, it's like that one moment that you get defined in a sense, right. For the rest of your life. You, you, you're defined as that crime. But any, any one of us in a one beer, too many mm-hmm. And a moment of anger mm-hmm. Anybody could snap. And that could be, you know. And, uh, you, you, you know what, it's funny you say about the good guys and bad guys. You, you know what always comes to my mind? I'm sure you guys watch a Scarface. Mm-hmm. You know, the, there's the scene guy. There's a scene where he's in the restaurant. Tell, tell Tony Montana, he is out in his suit and all these people are in their suits, and he starts like having a rant. Like, oh, you need people like me. To point. That's the bad guy. That's the bad guy. You know, and, and, and, and you look at that scene, right? You got all these people in, they're nice suits with their wives. They're all preppy. How many of them are criminals as well? Mm-hmm. You know, maybe they're what they call white collar crimes that are sitting there, but they're like, you need people like that. And I believe people are like that as well, where. You, you need people in Cook County where you could point like, those are the bad guys. I'm not the bad guy. At least I'm not like them. Right, right, right. But when you get to know them, you know that's not the case. Yeah. You get to know them and when you get to know yourself. Mm-hmm. Like, uh, I was with, uh, Bob Wolfson and he was telling the guys, what's the middle letter in the word sin? What's the middle? I, and then he asked him, what's the middle letter and the word pride. I, and then he told them, you know what, a lot of times we blame the devil. He's like, I like we don't need the devil to sin. We could do it all by ourselves. And probably really Well, you know, and a lot of times, you know, it's us. You know what I'm saying? And it's, we, there's no difference between what you would call a a there, they're, they're law breakers. Mm-hmm. Like you mentioned, they got caught. Mm-hmm. We're law breakers.'cause we, we break God's commandments. Right. When we, when, when you put it all like, we're all sinners in need of a savior, right? Mm-hmm. That's the hardest thing about recruiting for this ministry, because I remember Manny asking Klaus one time when he first met him. He said, so what does your, what do your parents think about you going into Cook County Jail? And he said, they're concerned, you know, because you know, from the outside, go, go, go, go from the outside looking in, you know? You would be concerned. Yeah.'cause they haven't been, that's why the best thing we can do when we recruit people is to get them to come on a one day shadow. Yeah.'cause then they're like, oh, that wasn't what I thought it was gonna be. You know, that was different. That's what most people will say. I, I, I know where, um, you said like Shadow Cook County, but you, you wanna talk a little bit about RTO, what that ministry is and how maybe that's a good, I would say a good segue to. To meet some of the people that are involved, like Pastor Manny Mill and everybody there like, so me and Manny and Barbara have done a great thing. They have an event called Ra Radical Timeout, RTO, Thursday nights. And it's really a beautiful thing because uh, if you have a child or a son or daughter that's incarcerated, or a father that's incarcerated. Or a, a brother that's incarcerated. Um, it's a shameful thing. And so we've even heard stories of people being asked not to come to their church because the victim's family's at the church, you know, and the pastor doesn't want the so, but RTO is a place where there's no shame. Everybody understands. That, uh, you know, they've all either been in prison or they're going to prison or they've got family members in prison, and so they can show up and worship the Lord without feeling any shame. And it's a, it's a great time of teaching worship, of prayer, and, uh, just really like church should be, there's complete transparency. Whereas, uh, you know, you'll find that when people meet Manny from my church. And I'll say, well, what, well, that person's got a relative in prison, you know? But I would never know that going to church with them, I could go to church with them for 20 years and I'd never know that they had a relative in prison. Yeah. So there's more people affected by it. So they've given a place where people can come and not feel shame. Yeah. It's really a beautiful thing. Amen. Amen. That, no, that, that, that's, that's a beautiful, and, and you know, did you mention where they meet at or no, like, um, well, they now meet at, uh, wellspring Lions Church, my church in Wheaton, uh, on Thursday night, 6:00 PM. Uh, once a month they have a meal. They start at five 15. Okay. Amen. So if anybody wants to go check it out, that's like a, and they pray, Manny would want me to mention this, that they also pray beforehand. So on the regular weeks, they pray at five 15 till six, there's a group of people that pray and then, uh, on the day of the meal, they, they think they pray at four 30. Yeah. And the three things they're very big on is prayer, worship, and the word of God. Right, right, right. Them three things. And those are the things that. That you bring into Cook County, right? Yeah, absolutely. Those are the things, every money we tell the guys, those are the things, those are the things that are gonna help them in their fight against the enemy. You know, if you're in prayer, if you're worshiping, and if you're in the word of God. You know, that's your defense mechanism. Amen. Amen. Amen. Brothers, we're already hour and 10 minutes, but, uh, man, a a any other story that you guys wanted to share? Uh, any final words, you know, before we get ready to, to, to wrap up? Yeah, I would just, I would just say that, um, yeah, jail ministry. It's, it's really great. It's been great in my life. And maybe, maybe, I don't know, the, the listener is not specifically called to that, but, um. Uh, it is still our, our duty to, uh, live out, uh, Christ's calling in, in, in our, in our lives, right? There's this really interesting, um, story, and I think it's in Matthew 25, where, uh, it's like the judgment scene and Jesus is separating the righteous from the unrighteous. And, um, Jesus is saying to the righteous, he's like, um. Um, when I was hungry, you fed me. What was, when I was thirsty. You gave me drink when I was naked, you gave me, uh, clo You clothed me when, when I was, uh, sick, you came and visited me. And when I was in prison, you, you came and, uh, visited me or something like that. Yeah. And the righteous are like, Jesus, when did we ever do, do that to you? Like we never did those things to you. And and he says his response is whatever you did to those, uh, little brothers of mine. Those, those, those. Smallest, this most in insignificant you did to me, right? So that, that is, uh, also one, one of the reasons why we should do these things. It's, it's, we're doing ministry, we're doing, um, living out the, the mess message of Christ, uh, for him, right? We're doing it to him. We're, we're visiting these guys, but we're really doing to it, to Christ for Christ. So that's just my encouragement is, um, get involved in a ministry, uh, in whatever capacity, even in your daily. Daily, everyday life. It can be very ordinary, but, um, crisis calls calls us to change the world in, in these ways. Amen. What about, what about you, Gary? Any, uh, final words? Any, any other stories? Yeah, just, uh, like Klaus just said, I just to echo that just in, in giving that we receive, uh, there's nothing more fulfilling than doing God's will. And, and really I think now I see these guys, the way God sees them and the way God sees me. You know, not by something I did, but he loves, he loves us in spite of that. And that, I mean, salvation's there for, for everyone no matter what you've done. Amen. And, uh, I'm so blessed to have, uh, learned that through this ministry. Amen. Amen. That definitely man. I wanna thank you guys for coming. I know you guys, uh. I, I, I don't think you ever fought me on that. This this guy did. He didn't want to come on my podcast. Uh, clouds. But yeah, we finally got him over here. No, you know what? This has been a, a blessing, man. I've been blessed by this conversation. Uh, thank you. And I'm sure the viewers and the listeners, they're gonna be blessed by it as well. But I'm gonna ask you guys if you, you guys could take turns and, uh, if you guys could close us out on the prayer for sure. Yeah. God, thank you for, uh, for allowing us to be here, uh, for this blessed time. And, um. And being in this podcast, Lord, I pray that we could, um, live out your message in our everyday lives that, um, whatever you call us to, even if it's ordinary things, like in, in our jobs, but to really, uh, yeah, live out the, uh, your teaching to. To go visit those who are in prison or go clo clothe those who are, um, naked or feed those who are hungry and thereby, uh, transforming the world. Uh, Lord, you're so good. You are so, so gracious. Thank you for giving grace even to those, uh, who, uh, who think maybe that they're too far gone, Lord. But all of us need it, including me, including Gary, including Omar. Uh, thank you for calling us, uh, from darkness, inter light from wrong to strong. Uh, thank you God. In Jesus' name. Amen. Yes, father, we thank you for this opportunity to share what you're doing in our lives, Lord. And, uh, I just thank you for the, the way you've taught me that, uh, darkness is as light to you that, uh. Although these men are in a dark place in Cook County Jail, uh, that your light can penetrate that darkness, Lord. And we just, we just pray that many will hear the truth and they will share the truth with those in darkness, Lord, that there'll be revival in Cook County jail and, and in the prisons all across the state of Illinois, Lord, that men will hear the truth, they'll be transformed by the truth, and they'll shine the light. Of your truth with those around them, Lord. So use this ministry. Bless Manny and Barbara and bless this ministry Lord, to reach those who need to hear about you. Those that are in darkness will hear the light in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Amen. Brothers, you know, I, I want to thank you guys for coming out here, man. It's been a blessing. It's been a joy. And with that, we're gonna get ready to wrap up. I, I wanna tell the listeners, um, if, if this, if this message, uh, this podcast has blessed you or maybe you're been considering, or, or like, like the brother mentioned, never considered prison ministry, but maybe God's sparking that desire in you, if you're in the Chicago land area, definitely visit, uh, RTO, radical timeout. Um, or go on, uh, with Nia House as a, a, a site, right? A website, national Ministries. It's Quin House National Ministries. Uh, go on there. You get definitely more info, but man, continue to pray, uh, for, uh, those in Cook County Jail. And I believe you mentioned over 5,000. That over 5,000 people that are there, uh, pray for them. Pray for the salvation that, uh, I, I believe Pastor Manny says, uh, says that revival is gonna come out of the prisons. Amen. Amen. I believe it is gonna be started from there. Yeah. So, so pray, pray for them. I, I know I, I've connected with people that are like part of my church. The church I go to has like 27 different locations around the city and suburbs, and I've encountered many people there that say, man, my, my family goes to that church, or, I grew, I, I went to that church. So when you think about the prisoner. Don't, don't look at somebody that's distant. It could be your neighbor, it could be your, your, uh, uh, friend's son, a husband, father. There's, there's somebody in there that we're, I, I think, um, I, I, I forget how, uh, pastor Manny Mill said it, that, uh, if you were to go to your church and ask how, how many of you are impacted by either a family member or a friend being in prison, and the majority of the hands will probably go up, you know, so, uh, uh, don't, don't look at, uh, those that are in there, uh, like, uh, shameful, almost like, uh, the lepers, right? But we wanna stay away from'em right now. Jesus went to those right? That, that, that were sick. You know, they're in need of a healer. They're in need of a savior. We're all in need of a savior. If you don't know Jesus Christ as Lord and savior of, of your life, you, you need'em, you know? Uh, we we're all sinners in need of a savior. And, uh, God the father, made a way for us to get back into relationship with him, uh, by sending his son Jesus, who, uh, died on the cross. He basically took upon himself the pen penalty and the judgment that we deserve, and it is by his sacrifice that by the shedding of his blood, that he made a way for us to be back into relationship with our Heavenly Father. So, if, if, if you, if, if you haven't accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior. I pray that you get, get to that point, uh, plug into a church. I know you mentioned the word discipleship. Very important to plug into a church where you're gonna be discipled, where you're gonna learn theology like my, my brother here. You know, you're gonna learn what the word means and uh, uh, I believe something you said is practical. The word is practical, right? Yeah. Is it simple? You follow the, the precepts, you follow those things and it's gonna begin to change your life. Uh, but with that, uh, thank you for listening. Thank you for supporting and we're gonna get ready to, to to wrap up. Um, Matthew four 16 reads, the people who sat in darkness have seen a great light, and upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death. Light has down alongside my guest, CLA and Gary Am Omar Calvio, and through Jesus Christ, we've gone from darkness to light and from wrong to strong.