Season 2: Episode 8 - The Power of Camp: A Conversation with Tom Rosenberg

In our latest episode of Staffing, Safety, Society we talk to Tom Rosenberg, President and CEO of the American Camp Association. He tells us about his vision for camp as a positive force for young people’s mental, emotional, and social health, and as an antidote to some of the negative impacts of our online world. We explore why camp is such a powerful force in the societal battle against the tides of depression, anxiety, loneliness, and social disconnection affecting today’s youth. And he provides some guidance for ways that camps can teach the mindsets, skills, and dispositions everyone needs to thrive in school, work, and life.

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Transcript

0:00:01 - Tom Rosenburg
There is this great Brene Brown quote vulnerability is the birthplace of innovation, creativity and change, and I think she's talking about camp. 

0:00:12 - Kevin Trapani
Welcome you all to season two, episode eight of Staffing Safety Society. I'm Kevin Trapani. 

0:00:18 - Paige Bagwell
And I'm Paige Bagwell. 

0:00:19 - Kevin Trapani
Today, folks, we are gonna talk about camp Tonight. I have a confession to start with. I am a camp kid and my family is a camp family, so this conversation is not unbiased. Paige, do you have a confession? 

0:00:31 - Paige Bagwell
I am a camp kid, raising camp kid. I don't think it's safe to say we're unbiased. 

0:00:37 - Kevin Trapani
I also wanna take a moment. Hanukkah begins this evening, and so harasameah to our Jewish friends. We wish you all the miracle of peace in these really, really challenging times. Yes, let's dig in. I should say that, as Redwoods, we have a really long history of, and we're blessed to have worked with camps for many, many years. All kinds of things have changed around camp. Society has changed internet, tablets, social media those things have changed the nature of childhood, which then changes the nature of camp. Not all the developments are bad, but those technologies have really changed the nature of the threats that kids face. We're biased about this. Camp is a really powerful antidote to those negative influences, not just because it's a break from being online, but because it offers, when done right, the kind of character development that young people really, really desperately need. We have the best guest to talk about camp Paige. Will you introduce our friend, tom Rosenberg? 

0:01:32 - Paige Bagwell
Tom, obviously. President and CEO of the American Camp Association, he is the leading voice around young people today and advancing all of our understanding of the value of camp and its essential developmental and educational experience that it provides kids. Today. He's actively advancing the collective field of camp in its battle against the prevalent tide of depression, anxiety, social disconnection, while teaching mindsets and skills and dispositions that help kids today thrive in school and work and life. We are just so excited to have you with us today, tom, so welcome. 

0:02:06 - Tom Rosenburg
Thank you so much, paige. Thanks Kevin. 

0:02:08 - Paige Bagwell
All right, well, let's dive in. What brought you into this camping world. 

0:02:11 - Tom Rosenburg
I've always wanted to be a teacher, so I ended up having a 27 year career leading nonprofit and for-profit camps before I became CEO of ACA and through that time I really saw how camp is a powerful life changing experience and tool for kids and young adults and others who are lucky enough to attend. I've also seen how a camp is not available or has not been available to everyone, whether for economic or cultural reasons. Some folks did not feel welcome or able to go to camp. So for me, it's my life's work to push this idea that every child, every young person deserves and can benefit from camp experiences, educationally and developmentally. 

0:02:51 - Paige Bagwell
Society around us has changed it has. How do you think the online world we live in now has shifted the importance of camp, now that kids are coming to camp away from an online world that they spend 48 weeks a year concentrating on? 

0:03:04 - Tom Rosenburg
Well, it's an exciting time to be at camp because it's providing critical opportunities for kids to be in authentic communities, authentic environments in which to learn and play. We're facing, here in the US, a loneliness epidemic, with 57% of girls and a third of boys experiencing persistent sadness and hopelessness, anxiety, depression and, tragically, suicide rates have surged and I believe that one out of five teens have contemplated suicide, making it the second leading cause of death for 10 to 14 year olds Again one out of five. So camp, community and camp experiences are key players in developing the strategy of recovery for our kids To recover from the trauma of the last few years, to recover from the isolation and pain of loss and to build a future where everyone can thrive. 

0:03:56 - Paige Bagwell
No One in five. That's one too many, right Like I? Just you're saying numbers that are hard to even recognize. This is the world in which our kids are living in now. 

0:04:05 - Kevin Trapani
It's complex. 

0:04:07 - Paige Bagwell
It is. 

0:04:07 - Kevin Trapani
Tom, you mentioned the loneliness epidemic. The United States Surgeon General has spoken to that. The data supports it and our personal experience supports it. I've heard you talk as well about the disinhibition effect. Talk about how that relates here and this idea of recovering from the negative fallout of the online world. 

0:04:24 - Tom Rosenburg
You know, as camp professionals, we know how important camp can be for campers and staff. I'd love to have a chance to unpack why camp is helping to solve a problem we've recently started to name, which is the online disinhibition effect. Researchers have identified like six different dimensions of this effect that we don't need to go into in great detail. But essentially, these effects are where an individual perceives that they can hide or change their true identity in the online environment, or the degree to which individual perceives that others don't physically see him or her in the online environment, like that invisibility allows them to not worry about how they look or how they sound. 

Another version of the disinhibition effect is the degree to which an individual perceives a voice or image of the other person in their mind. In online communication, it's almost like they're projecting someone else. There's another example it's the degree to which an individual perceives the online environment as an imaginary world that has no connection to reality. To me, this really matters because when our kids are online, they believe that nothing matters and, importantly, they don't believe that they matter. They can behave anyway. They want no responsibility, no accountability and, honestly, they can act out in ways that they think don't matter. We want our kids to grow up thinking they do matter and how they act and behave does matter and how they grow from that matters. 

0:05:50 - Kevin Trapani
Tom, really there's a kind of double-edged sword there. One, a lot of our kids feel like how they act doesn't matter, and a lot of our kids are victimized by other kids feeling like they can say whatever they want, which then bullies or creates all kinds of challenges. Those who are going to camp are probably equally likely to be on either side of that spectrum either victims or victimizers as a result of the anonymity of being able to act however they want. 

0:06:15 - Tom Rosenburg
Yes, and it's important that kids grow up in communities where they can feel emotionally and physically safe to say what they think and what they believe, to develop their own identity in a responsible way and a safe way, and if they are lucky enough to have that, then they're able to take positive risks and learn and grow from that. But the online disinhibition effect means that very often kids are not in an emotionally or physically safe environment online and there are all kinds of repercussions for that that are counter to their healthy development and education. 

0:06:50 - Kevin Trapani
So now we take kids from both sides of this either victims or victimizers in some respects, but all affected by this disinhibition effect we bring them into this intense reality that is called camp. Yes, and now, because there's no editing my comments when I'm sitting in the circle at evening Vespers or whatever you know, I can't pull anything back. I'm not anonymous in any way, shape or form. There's no filter, no filters whatsoever. That feels a lot like real life, not online life, and we also recognize that no two camps are alike. Camps have different traditions, different reasons for being, different orientations. What is the key, then, to creating camps who create this reality in a nurturing, loving, positive kind of way? 

0:07:34 - Tom Rosenburg
Well, it's really important for camps to have terrific near peer young adults who can work with youngsters and create a camp community culture that is truly authentic. That is IRL in real life, where all day long, every day, kids are encouraged to just be themselves, to practice human skills like good communication, learning to listen, learning to speak what they are feeling, a place for positive mental health, where they're learning to express their feelings, whether they're happy or sad, or something else that requires everyone in the community to be invested in making it that emotionally safe place. Well, they won't be put down for what they think or believe and they can have honest conversations and also take some positive risks with each other in ways that they aren't able to do, perhaps, in other aspects of their life. 

0:08:24 - Paige Bagwell
We are saying such common sense things. We know how important community is, but we failed to figure out how to teach this, and that's why camp is so important, because it teaches them in real life how to adapt and learn to live with each other and have conversations, and it's something I think we're missing more and more. 

0:08:41 - Tom Rosenburg
Well, I think, paige, what it is is, in building a strong community, everyone has to agree to be responsible for each other and for themselves, and so they learn citizenship skills at camp. They learn they have to give more than they expect to receive. They learn that they have a responsibility to each other. Everyone helps each other at camp from day one, and when there's a difficult moment, when there's disagreement, kids are encouraged to talk it out, with some facilitation, very often from their peer camp counselors. It is a place where you can learn to appreciate differences. 

Kevin, you might be more of a Batman guy, I'm more of a Superman guy. You can learn to discuss differences and work through disagreements, and that's a really healthy thing to learn as you grow up and start to think about what's important to you From a business perspective. I think, paige, that it's also really important for young people to grow up appreciating how differences matter, how differences are good for creating things, designing things, building strong community. Right, that's what we're talking about. So, ultimately, here at the American Camp Association, we are all about empowering camps to create quality experiences that build a world of belonging and growth for all of our young people. You've got to create that environment where they feel like they authentically belong. They're encouraged to learn and grow in ways, perhaps, that expand on what they learn in the classroom and inspire them to keep learning. 

0:10:15 - Paige Bagwell
Yeah, that is such a beautiful picture. I don't know about you, kevin, but even as he was saying it, I was literally picturing my camp and what that feeling and how quickly it comes back, even to us as adults. 

0:10:27 - Kevin Trapani
Well, with this idea that we help each other, right, Just the most basic thing in the whole world, Right? Tom, you know that I love. One of the things I love about camp is that we create abundance out of scarcity. Right? There's never enough of something right. At the end of the day, one table has broccoli but the other table doesn't. We share, and those kinds of things. Broccoli is a bad example for eight-year-old boys. But the thought occurs to me and Paige, I know you want to talk a little bit about how we make camp kind of year round or lifelong or whatever. 

I'm just curious can we send Congress to camp? It just occurs to me. 

0:10:58 - Paige Bagwell
There's a long list of people we want to send to camp. 

0:11:03 - Tom Rosenburg
I think it's important to note like at camp, you start off not knowing each other, not knowing much about each other, and the whole experience each and every day of camp is we're phones away for the session, that we're. At camp we only focus eyeball to eyeball, heart to heart and head to head on who we each are and how can we connect with each other. So kids are learning powerful social connection skills that will provide them with success. They learn to love each other. At the end of the session, everyone is crying because they have to say goodbye until the next time. There is this great Brene Brown quote vulnerability is the birthplace of innovation, creativity and change. And I think she's talking about camp. Oh my gosh. 

0:11:46 - Paige Bagwell
That's beautiful. 

0:11:47 - Kevin Trapani
That's so true. We have a society that especially for men, I'm sorry to say it just does not allow us to be vulnerable. So the start of the Brene Brown quote is to be vulnerable. That then enables all this other stuff, and so if you have not allowed yourself to be vulnerable which most often happens when you're not in a safe environment then you can't experience these other things. That's why I think that quote is so beautiful. 

0:12:12 - Paige Bagwell
It is, it's so beautiful. 

0:12:14 - Tom Rosenburg
There's a new book out right now from Adam Grant called Hidden Talent, and he talks about growth opportunities coming from moments of uncomfortableness. 

0:12:23 - Kevin Trapani
You must have those you must have those. 

0:12:26 - Tom Rosenburg
And the thing about camp is that it's a place for young people. Once they feel like they belong, once they feel a strong sense of connection and empowerment from their fellow campers and their counselors, then they try new things and oftentimes hard and challenging things, which allows, affords them the opportunity to experience failure like make mistakes and recover and try again, and try again and then hopefully eventually succeed. But that practice at camp, which happens every day, allows them the opportunity to build growth mindset, which all of our education expert friends will tell you is essential. 

0:13:05 - Paige Bagwell
Yeah, look, I've learned the hard way that camp gets my kids to do things that I couldn't pay them to do. It's just a different environment that just brings out something different. So here's the downfall, gentlemen we cannot go to camp 52 weeks out of the year, although we would all love to. What happens when you have these monumental weeks, or four weeks or all summer, where kids go and they get put back into the real life and they start to come out and find themselves and find friendships that they didn't even know existed and that embrace those differences? How do we make this lasting for everyone? Kevin and I, we take our staff to camp every so often for a day. At the end of every day, they're like can we work here? Can? 

0:13:44 - Kevin Trapani
we just move the office here. 

0:13:45 - Paige Bagwell
I think we all have that longing not even just kids of having that kind of safe space throughout our entire year. 

0:13:52 - Tom Rosenburg
I think that you, as my friends at Redwoods, I would just like to say that I think you create a community there for your team to live like campers where everyone can share openly and work very intentionally with each other. I think that's one of the things about each session of camp at a quality program is that it is very intentional. Each day, for example, like at breakfast, camp directors might introduce a particular value for that day, like, for example, gratitude, or, for example, servant leadership or selflessness, and so for that day, the camp, or for that morning, the camp is really encouraging campers and staff to be intentional, to live into those values, and through that practice, kids go home with stronger character. 

0:14:46 - Paige Bagwell
Frankly, Anyway, we can look at kids today and help them have that safe environment. I don't know better, I'm looking for better words to say it, but it's just that word, it's just. It provides a safety that they can learn about themselves and learn about others In any way. We can stretch that across kids today when they go back to the online world. That can create something that's not real for them. I just think is monumental. 

0:15:12 - Tom Rosenburg
Going into the pandemic and coming out of the pandemic. We especially hold our kids very tight. We want to keep them safe as parents. But one of the challenges is doesn't necessarily afford our young people an opportunity to take those positive risks where they can try new things and build that sense of confidence and self-esteem. And yes, I can instead of no, I can't. Especially in the pandemic, kids were isolated and so they really didn't have a chance to really stretch emotionally, physically. 

It's important that we give kids a chance to make mistakes at camp. 

You know we wanna give them those, those opportunities to build strength from moments of failure. 

Right, and so can't really intentional about that, and you know, the other thing I would just say is that that practice, having had the opportunity to take positive risks and make mistakes and learn from those mistakes and find success and then grow from that experience there's an opportunity for parents to encourage their kids to try new, challenging things, and we as parents have to learn from our, our children's camp directors how we can create that kind of environment at home. I was just gonna tell a story that I, you know. During the pandemic, you know, kids stayed home a lot, and I, I know, one day after the pandemic I realized my son came home with two skin knees from ultimate frisbee practice and I said to my son I Don't remember the last time you had a skin knee, and so you know. It's just a reminder that as parents we wanna keep our kids safe, but we wanna build inner strength. We want them to build like some body armor against people might say things that might hurt them. 

0:16:48 - Kevin Trapani
We wanna teach them to go for the things that they believe in, and I'm into be willing to do hard things which will make them stronger as I beautiful, you know as long as we're telling stories, remember being at a camp several years ago as well, before the pandemic, and we're talking about this idea of camp having been this wonderful experience for all these kids, and then they're gonna go back into whatever their other alternate reality is. And the camp director had everybody in front of them and he said I'm just gonna remind you, as I do at the end of every session, you have been at camp, which means you now Are camp and it's your responsibility to take our values back into that world. And it feels to me like calling campers to be and represent that environment in their non-camp environment is a really powerful message. 

0:17:34 - Tom Rosenburg
Absolutely. My former camp director that I learned from, who was my mentor as a young camp professional, always used to say at camp we practice being people. We want to help young people Invisual in the world that they want to be in and go out there and make it yeah tom, we're gonna wrap up this conversation, which has been such a blessing for us. 

0:17:56 - Kevin Trapani
It is always great to be with you and that we got a chance to bottle it and share it with a bunch of other folks is is incredible privilege. As we park page are gonna have a couple of comments that will probably diminish the quality to call in significant ways yourself oh yeah sorry, but I'm wondering do you have a final thought for listeners? 

0:18:17 - Tom Rosenburg
I do, kevin. Thanks so much. I think it's important for parents and families out there listening to this amazing podcast to understand that camp is not just a break for parents or an optional fun recreation leisure experience, but it's actually a core educational and developmental out of school time tool. It helps build these young people up for the world that they're going to face and help them create the world that they want to be in. It can seem contradictory to say that time in the woods and a cabin can prepare you for the hyper online world in which they actually live in during the nine months of the school year, but it's the truth. So the more we can build up young people who really understand themselves, who understand each other, the better place they'll be to navigate the pressures and pitfalls, and sometimes negative influences, of the online world out there. 

0:19:15 - Kevin Trapani
It is such an honor to call you friend and to be able to have this conversation with you just Elevates us and elevates our listeners, enriches us. Thank you for the conversation, yes. 

0:19:26 - Paige Bagwell
Page thoughts talking about the dis inhibition effect, and just you know me thinking, even as a parent, where you've got kids that have created this world that they think has no responsibility and they think has no consequences, and that's For the actions that they portray, as well as what they think when others portray like, oh well, they've done this to me on this in this online world, but they have no consequences, right so? 

And that, just what that does to our youth, to then fast forward to the simple story about Tom son, about I can't remember the last time you had a skint knee Like that reminds you of the beauty of our real world, and the kids get to experience that every day and if we can pull them out of that fakeness and into this skint knee, you might fail and you might fall world that the beauty on the other side are just well rounded, healthy, beautiful people that will run our world and run it with grace and love, and I just that gets me excited is what gets me excited about what we do and what we get to kind of sit on the sidelines and watch a ca and other camps do so. So thank you so much, you know, tom, for sharing that. 

0:20:35 - Kevin Trapani
I love that page, though they'll run the world with grace and love and scarred knees. Yes, the piece that I want to call out here is that we talked so much about the real benefits of camp, especially an increasingly online world for campers. I also want to call out how powerful and positive it is for camp workers, for counselors and leaders, junior counselors, senior counselors you know all those those folks you and I both have that experience. Despite that evidence, in my case, you can grow up to a whole human. You know functioning human being. I just think we have talked forever and ever about okay, you know, now it's time for my son or daughter, who was a camper maybe it was a CIT at camp to go get a real job. And I just want to tell you, I'm your president of the company, I'm a CEO of a company. We hire camp people and the reason we hire camp people is because they are whole people. They have developed, not soft skills y'all don't ever call it soft skills again. It is essential skills. Bunch of yours, guys. 

With the CEO of Lexington furniture brands here in North Carolina, we're at a place called the furniture Academy, which is a place where people are taught to build furniture. And, by the way, here in North Carolina you make sixty dollars an hour being a pollster. So bunch of our listeners now may be interested in Coming North Carolina becoming a pollster. But I said them what kind of furniture building experience you need to have in order to come to work for Lexington brands? He said none. I can teach you to build furniture. What I can't teach you is the essential skills that are necessary to succeed and work, and there are three of them. You gotta get to work on time. Yeah, do the work I've asked you to do. You gotta get along with the people I asked you to work with. He said those are the things that are essential for thriving at work. 

There was another CEO in this meeting who listened to that and he said you know, I've never heard it said exactly that way, but I'm thinking back on the lots and lots of people I've unfortunately had to fire, and I don't think there's a single one of them didn't involve one of those three things. And so what do you learn at camp? You learn accountability and personal responsibility. Tom said selflessness, servant leadership, gratitude all the things that make great leaders in real life. I have a daughter, her first year of her professional pursuit now, having graduated from college last year, and I honestly is not a day that she didn't say there's something she called on from her camp experience. This is how we make leaders of consequence. And so, parents, send your kids to camp and then send your kids to work at camp, and, tom, we are grateful for you and for all the folks in the camp world doing such incredible selfless work every year. Every year. It's an amazing blessing in our society. 

Has thanks, tom let me read us out. Staffing safety society is created by the Redwoods group. It's produced by Stephen Dauchert, Melanie young, Sammy Grover, page Bagwell, piper Kessler and me. Every week I say that page. I think people think we've got like a hundred people working on the podcast. These people have real employment other than this thing. But if you like the show, please tell a friend or leave us a review. It means a lot to us. If you have suggestions for topics or any kind of feedback, would love to hear that. Click on the link in the show notes or send an email to us at community at Redwoods group dot com. Again, community at Redwoods group dot com. We'll get back to you. Staffing safety society, recorded weekly in North Carolina. I'm Kevin Trapani and I'm page back. Well, thanks y'all for listening. Take care.