not your average GOAT: authentic storytelling and dismantling stigma with Teisha Gillespie

Content note: brief discussion of mental illness and suicide

After six months of planning, Elle is thrilled to welcome this episode’s guest to the podcast! Teisha Gillespie is a marketing director and podcast host. Teisha's podcast, "Not Your Average GOAT," highlights diverse stories of adversity and diversity, aiming to dismantle stigma. She emphasizes the power of relatable, authentic stories in changing perceptions and reducing shame around mental health and disability. Elle and Teisha take a little time to discuss how inaccessibility created barriers to this interview, and Teisha addresses the challenges of paternalism and advocates for showing rather than telling to demonstrate the capabilities of blind — and other disabled — individuals.

Links to Teisha’s podcast, as well as all other resource links, are in the full show notes at hoorfpodcast.com

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Transcript

Elle Billing: 0:00

Hi. My name is Elle Billing. I am a chronically ill queer femme, and I'm tired. I'm here this episode and every episode to dig at the roots of our collective fatigue, explore ways to direct our care in compassionate and sustainable ways, and to harness creative expression to heal ourselves and to heal our world. Welcome to Hoorf: radical care in a late capitalist heckscape. My guest today is Teisha Gillespie. Teisha is a native Marylander who now resides in Virginia. Being the eldest of seven girls amongst a turbulent upbringing, Teisha has always been an innate protector and justice advocate. From nine to five,Teisha is a marketing director for an early education nonprofit that believes every child deserves equitable access to high quality learning experiences that will put them on a successful path in school and life. From five to nine, Teisha volunteers as the communications chair for the National Federation of the Blind of Virginia and moonlights as the host of Not Your Average GOAT Podcast, a show that celebrates all the shapes, sizes and colors of diversity as well as adversity. As a blind, vision-disabled individual who also happens to be a Black female managing anxiety, Teisha is passionate about making an impact and dismantling the stigma and prejudice that encases marginalized communities. I'm excited to have Teisha on the podcast today. Welcome to Hoorf. Let's just, like, dive into it, and Ricki can decide where to cut us off at the beginning and then at the end. Because, like, we're really chatty, because we've talked a few times now, because this interview has been in the making for by the time this airs, it'll be like, six months, something like that. Yeah, scheduling and rescheduling and sending questions back and forth and trying to figure out when we can make this happen, which is one of the things that I have on our list of topics, was how long it took us to get here. But I'm going to start with my first question, which I always start with, which is, how have you received care this week?

Teisha Gillespie: 2:39

You know, and I was, I was reading the questions just a minute ago, and I was like, This couldn't have been timed better, because I almost feel like I'm cheating by having this podcast episode scheduled where it is. Because for the first time in over a year, I have had 10, almost 10 straight days off from work, and it's been so overdue. I hit burnout pretty quickly this year. I had so many different back to back events that happened. I had someone leave our organization, and so my team essentially increased by 50% temporarily for about four months. And three weeks after that happened, I had one of my direct reports go on maternity leave three weeks earlier than expected in the middle of a huge project. Okay, and so I immediately had to not just take over that project and kind of figure out and really get into the weeds where I had not really been in the weeds before, but then also start working closely with her direct report, who had only been with the company for a month. And I was like, I felt so bad that this, this poor girl, you know, her boss goes on maternity leave three weeks earlier, and it's this huge project. And I bet she felt so overwhelmed too. But then I've had just so many things over the last four or five months happen. Most of it related to work, and so I hit burnout really, really hard, and I just was not, unfortunately, in the position to be able to take time off. I could take one or two days, but it's like when your phone's about to die, but you have to go somewhere, so you just plug it up for five minutes. That's basically what those one or two days did for me. It really just it gave me enough charge so that I can make it through the next week. But then once I got to the week after, I was back at rock bottom, and I've been there for so long. And so two weeks ago, I decided our year, our fiscal year, work is ending. And I was just like, You know what? This is probably going to be the calmest time of the year. I'm just going to submit the time and take off and just add on to my labor day weekend and do it because I just need to unplug. And it's been a staycation. I haven't even gone anywhere. I can't necessarily say that it's been relaxing, but that's been totally fine for me, because I've been focusing on some of my volunteer work, some of the things for the podcast. So it's been just all me, and I've intentionally, like, I keep telling myself, anytime a little thought about work creeps into my mind, I'm just immediately zap it out. Like, nope. Teisha, nope. Start thinking about this other thing. And I even told my partner too. I was like, if I start talking about work, just tell me to stop it, because I need to keep it out of my mind for the full 10 days so that I can actually go back and feel refreshed. So that's what I've done this week for myself.

Elle Billing: 5:36

I'm so glad that you were able to do that. I know how that that's that was such a good analogy, too, about how when you only have 5% battery and you just stick it on the charger long enough to go to the next thing I'm gonna borrow that

Teisha Gillespie: 5:49

definitely

Elle Billing: 5:50

that's such, that is such a good analogy, because there's that feeling of dread and anxiety that goes along with it, with the phone itself, but also with the like, Knowing you don't have enough energy and enough to get through whatever you need to do, it's like, it just got to get to Friday. I just got to get to Friday. I just got to get to Friday. There's like, a whole sense of dread that goes along with that, that that makes it hard to do what you need to do, even during that time, at least for me, when I'm in that head space of like, being so close to burnout?

Teisha Gillespie: 6:20

Yeah, yeah. And speaking of that dread too, there's been just so many other things, like I said, it has mostly been a work, and there's been other anxiety driven and stress striving events that have happened that just have added on to that as well. So, you know, having that 5% or 10% charge has been so crucial just thinking about Friday, because mentally, my mental health, my anxiety, my depression, like I, you know, there's been so many times where I've just, you know, grabbed so my partner has ADHD, so he's constantly checking his blood pressure because he's on Adderall and so, like, I've used his blood pressure monitor so many times because I've been afraid that mine has risen. Thankfully, I haven't really run into any risky events, but that's just how intense it's been lately. And so I'm very glad that I finally just pulled the trigger and said, Teisha, you're going to do this. And thankfully, my PTO got approved, so I was very happy.

Elle Billing: 7:22

Yeah, that's good. So you mentioned your podcast, and so I'd like to talk about that a little bit. Your podcast is called, Not Your Average GOAT, GOAT being Greatest of All Time. You borrowed the sports acronym. So can you what can you tell us about why you started the podcast, not your average goat, and the kinds of stories that you feature in each episode? So my background, at the beginning of my career, I was working for a publishing agency, interviewing small business owners and really being able to kind of zoom in on their own personal story to how they got to starting their business, you know, why they're so passionate about it. And even talk a lot about, you know, with a small business, a lot of them were family owned businesses, so even talking about the intersection with that as well. And I got to bring these people stories to life through magazine articles. And I really, really love that. And I actually imagined myself one day going into like a journalistic type of role, and my career just decided it was going to go in a completely different direction. But I never lost that storytelling component. But I say that because I initially started my podcast recognizing that I've been really lucky over the years, you know, especially, I would say, living in what we call the DMV area, which is the DC, Maryland, Virginia region. There's a lot of nomads here, a lot of people from not just all over the country, but also all over the world, who kind of come to this area because there's so many government opportunities, so many nonprofits located here, and so I've been so lucky to acquaint and befriend so many incredible people with so many different identities, backgrounds, lived experiences. And I started thinking that, you know, I hear all these other podcasts interviewing these incredible people, but they're actors and they're comedians, and there's politicians and all these people who you know everyone knows, but I was like, there's so many incredible people with amazing stories who are just quote, unquote average and people don't know about them, and I think I'd like to create a platform to showcase their stories. And so that's initially how my podcast got started. But with that said, over the last two, two and a half years, I've really been able to kind of zoom in on my actual mission and vision, and I realized through the showcasing these stories. So my tagline has always been to celebrate all the shapes, sizes and colors of diversity, as well as adversity, and I personally have many different diversity identifiers. I'm a female, you know, I'm a person of color, I have two disabilities, I have anxiety disorder. I'm also blind, and so because of a lot of these things, and because of my environment growing up, I've had to face and navigate and been able to overcome some of these adversities, and I learned that a lot of these things can be very tough to talk about, because there is already a lot of stigma sometimes related to your diversity identities, but then adversity that sometimes results directly from some of your identities has a lot of stigma as well. It's really difficult to have conversations around addiction or disability or suicide. You know the intersection between race and incarceration, and you know what it's like, for instance, you know coming out, and maybe just, you know not coming out, but maybe you're coming out as polyamorous, and no one understands what that means, and there's just a lot of questioning around it. And so, you know, through having these conversations early on, I started to realize there were themes when they were talking about their story. There was almost this kind of like therapeutic release that some people were having, and having someone share that with me. I felt, you know, I personally felt really great that I've been able to kind of create a space for some of these folks that I've interviewed. But then on the other side of it, people who were listening would reach out and say, you know, I just listened to so and so's story. And, you know, I never thought that there was anyone else who experienced the bullying that I did when I was a kid, or I just listened to so and so's story, and it really gave me a different perspective on my wife and my child, who are dealing with different, you know, neuro- neuro-spiciness levels or disabilities, or, you know, I've also lost someone to suicide, and I also experienced exactly what this other person went through. And so the power of relatability that you can find through authentic storytelling is something else that I've realized. And so I've really zoomed my mission in on creating a platform for these relatable or these authentic stories that are hopefully relatable, informative, help to kind of use education, but in a kind way, to potentially help change minds about certain deeply held beliefs around different lived experiences or identities, and to hopefully have an impact on dismantling stigma through having these uncomfortable conversations. And so that's really where I am right now. And so I talk to people like I said, of all different walks, all different backgrounds, all different types of adversities. And I really try to emphasize that there really are so many different shapes, sizes and colors of adversity, because, yes, they're going to be analogous and adjacent experiences, and people are going to hopefully feel seen and understood by hearing other people's experiences, but also two people can go through the same experience and come out of it very, very differently. And so I really tried to emphasize that there's really, there's no comparison. Just because I've talked to one person who's overcome or navigated addiction, or because I've talked to one person who's, you know, lived with a disability, it doesn't mean that everyone else's experience is going to be the same. And so there are some times where I actually, you know, I have multiple people on to talk about addiction, multiple people on to talk about disability, postpartum depression, because everyone's individual story is so important, because it every each story brings to light something new and is able to touch someone else in a different way than the other previous stories that came before It That bit at the end, about people who experience like the same thing experience it differently, came up last season in a conversation about autism, where, if you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person, like knowing an autistic person gives you their experience. Like, you know, the autism spectrum is so broad and the experiences are so nuanced and diverse that, like I interviewed my sister about our experiences growing up neurodivergent, but undiagnosed. And that experience of having listeners reach out and say, oh my gosh, thank you for that episode I never knew. You know, we had that experience with my the episode with my sister. But again, my sister's experience is only one person, and I have a lot of friends on the autism spectrum who are very, very different, and their experience is quite different from what my sister's is. And so, like, I really appreciate that about the way that you have done your podcast is that you have multiple people with stories of addiction, because everyone's story is important and is individual. You know, it may reach somebody a different way than the previous one.

Unknown: 15:13

Yeah. And I think another thing you know, as you were talking, and I think I literally just realized this, is that I another really great value to having multiple different stories is that hopefully it shows to the world that these types of experiences do not discriminate, like there is no prejudice in disability. There's no prejudice or discrimination in addiction, you can be the highest functioning executive, great family upbringing, and somehow still end up becoming an alcoholic for any reason, like anything at any point in time, can make you identify with other people, and maybe you never thought that you could get there. I mean, fingers crossed, you know, that doesn't happen, but it can happen,

Elle Billing: 15:59

right. And I, you know, I've, I've said this before on the podcast, and I'll probably repeat it for as long as I have a podcast, but 25% of the US population identifies as disabled. Those are the people who actually claim their disability and say, I have a disability, and it's the only demographic or marginalized group, or however you want to phrase it, that you can just instantly join that you weren't part of before. You know, I didn't used to be chronically ill or disabled, and I am now. You can't really shift into, like other population groups quite as, quite as quickly as you can into disability, and I think that's something a lot of people aren't comfortable thinking about. We like to think we have some level of control over our health and wellness, and it can be actually quite fickle,

Unknown: 16:47

yeah. And I remember one of the first episodes that I had listened to from your podcast, you had quoted one of your own friends saying that, you know if, if you are lucky enough, you will be old enough to become disabled,

Elle Billing: 17:02

yeah, yep. If you live, if you live long enough, you'll become disabled. You'll get old enough to become disabled. Yep, I think I've repeated that on a few episodes too.

Teisha Gillespie: 17:11

I mean, some things, there are some things that are definitely worth repeating, yeah, um, and, you know, thinking about it. So I, one of my disabilities is that I'm blind. I have a condition called retinitis pigmentosa, or RP, and thinking about that as well, I was born kind of with, like, the full severity of the condition for for my strand. And so I've never really known life any differently. I do have some usable sight, but I, you know, I've, I've never known life differently. So you know, almost it's if I don't know that I have bad eyes, because these are the only eyes that I've ever had. But there are some strands of RP where people are born with nearly 20/20 vision, and then just out of nowhere, their vision decreases. And then every few years, it decreases even more. And so even though they were born with a disability, they too, still go through those that experience of joining the disability club,

Elle Billing: 18:10

yeah, and having it be dynamic and changing. And yeah. So I guess we can talk about accessibility a little bit. One of the reasons it's taken six months, like we said, to get this episode on the books, is the accessibility of the platform that I use for recording my podcast. I had a friend who is has albinism and he's low vision, and he works in assistive technology, and I asked him to run through my onboarding process for for guests before I, like, sent you all the links. This is all things you know, this is for the benefit of the listeners. Like he went through everything, and it was all accessible to screen readers, except the final step, which was the actual recording platform. And so none of the buttons or anything in the recording platform were labeled for people who use screen readers or other assistive tech for for vision on a computer. And I was surprised. I shouldn't have been. I know that accessibility is an issue in software, but then I wasn't sure what I was gonna do. And so we're recording on Zoom, which is how you record your podcast, which Zoom because it's more widely known. They have better because they have to, right? They have a bigger audience. They have more accessibility features. I think other companies have to too. They just haven't done it yet.

Teisha Gillespie: 19:39

Yeah, I mean, and I will be to be fair, I Well, two things, I think. One, oftentimes people don't know what they don't know, right? If they've never been exposed to someone who has had to use a screen reader to navigate, then they've never had anyone to tell them hey, every button on this platform says, Unlabeled Button, Unlabeled Button. You know, if I never have to hear that phrase again coming from my screen reader, I would be the most overjoyed person.

Elle Billing: 20:08

Oh my gosh, I'm sure.

Teisha Gillespie: 20:10

So there's that kind of, that element of you don't know what you don't know. But then also, you know, some of these platforms that are not Zoom because they're not so big, they also don't necessarily have the money, potentially, to invest in additional quality assurance and maybe bringing on someone who has digital accessibility background, which I don't think necessarily is an excuse for them to not prioritize it. I don't think they're intentionally de prioritizing it, but they're also not intentionally prioritizing it, right?

Elle Billing: 20:42

They're not thinking with a diverse set of end users in mind.

Teisha Gillespie: 20:47

Yeah, and that's one thing that I've really tried to, really try to share more of, and I'm so thankful there are so many really incredible people, like a person I interviewed on my show a couple years ago, who runs a digital accessibility organization. It's actually global, but she's located in India. But, you know, we talked a lot about how accessibility, what is good for digital accessibility and enabling people who might use assistive technology to navigate the web and mobile applications is also good for everyone. It makes everyone's life easier. And you know, we're talking about auto correct on your cell phone was initially designed for people who have motor limitations, and you know, so they don't have to type up the entire word. But guess what? Auto correction is also great for people who may not have been great at spelling when they were in school, or, you know, when you just type too quickly and you mistype something. And then captions on videos were initially designed for people who were deaf or hard of hearing. But guess what? It's also great for everyone. And even it's also probably great, you know, I know, at least for my partner, who has ADHD, having captions on sometimes means that he has to not rewind as much to go back and catch something that he might have missed if he was only relying on audio. And it's also true for the physical world as well. Like if you think about a ramp, which people often think of, it's just for people who are in wheelchairs. But guess what? It's also great for a parent who might be pushing a stroller with a baby. It's also great if you live in the city and you do, you know you walked to and from the grocery store and you have like, five bags, you may not want to walk up a bunch of steps after walking a mile to and from the grocery store, right? So, you know, I love this other analogy too. But if accessibility can be at the beginning of the sentence and not the period at the end of the sentence in all situations, I think it would just make the world better for everyone living in it.

Elle Billing: 22:57

Yeah, I agree. I definitely agree with that. You mentioned auto correct and captions. I used to work at a deaf school, and what I noticed is, when my I taught elementary first and then middle school and high school, is that one one of my students. And of course, this is like an N-equals-one study, right? This is, this is anecdata. I had a student who her-- she started texting me on her mom's phone about third or fourth grade, and having predictive text and auto correct started to improve her grammar in her writing, because Standard English grammar is what's programmed into phone dictionaries. So her texting started to become more like coherently, English and correct, and that started to impact her, her writing work in class, as well as a language learner. Captions, too are good for, yeah, the Deaf and Hard of Hearing is who they were designed for, but it's they're good language learning tools for English language learners. And there are, there were ways that we could utilize captions to, like, teach vocabulary and reinforce vocabulary too, with deaf and hard of hearing students. They're just, they're tools that can be used for everybody.

Unknown: 24:10

Yeah? I mean, I that that represents the universality even more. Yeah, multilingual learners.

Elle Billing: 24:17

So you've addressed a little bit, or actually quite a bit about the podcast and how you started it, because you really wanted to address stigma, the stigma around various embodiments of diversity, around various adversities, because stigma does come attached to so many of the intersections that we may inhabit. You mentioned yours, my own. I'm disabled, I'm chronically ill, I'm queer, all of these labels carry weight that we don't necessarily choose for ourselves, even if we're okay with the labels that we have. So stigma leads to to silencing, because you've approached these stigmas and addressed systemic silencing like through your podcast by having the podcast. Has having the podcast and meeting all these people and having all these interviews and looking at all of these various diversities and adversities and sort of breaking some of those silences, has it changed the other parts of your life and how you address those issues?

Teisha Gillespie: 25:19

You know, I not to jump too far ahead of the interview, but I might kind of hit on one of the questions that you have later on. So because I've been, you know, I count myself lucky, firstly, that there are people even willing to sit down and talk to me for one, two, sometimes three hours, but just to share, like, the depths of their experiences with me. And like I said, these are some really hard conversations. And there's definitely been times when one or both of the people, either me and or the other person, you know, we get to tears sometimes. I mean, there, there's some really tough conversations happening. Obviously, having had listened to some of these stories. You know, I've had my mind change on a few things. Or I think I would like to say that my mind has grown on a few things. But I think when it comes to engaging with other people, especially those who have some of those deeply ingrained beliefs on certain things, and unfortunately, it's, it's oftentimes folks who are, you know, of a red mindset. And I think what's been really helpful for me in engaging in these conversations, because I'm a very black and white person when it comes to right and wrong ethics, any kind of question about justice or equity, it's really easy for me to just get caught up and get really fiery because I feel so strongly about these topics. But I think what's been so helpful about having this podcast is--It's almost as if I now have this library or this repertoire of stories and anecdotes that I can go to instead to help illustrate some of, you know, my points and some of these beliefs and ideas that might be contrary to the person that I'm talking to. And I think, you know, that's that's the one thing that I love so much about stories, is that they're so powerful, they can evoke emotion, they can again, kind of create this idea that there's someone out there who I can relate to. We talk about the bad side of bias, but there's also this positive side when it comes to bias, if you can find a commonality with someone else, then you're going to become biased toward them, but in a good way,

Elle Billing: 27:39

yeah

Teisha Gillespie: 27:39

and I think that like being able to actually talk on like when it comes to conversation, especially around mental health, because that's one thing that people can't see. It's the invisible disability that people can't see. And there's so many different categories. There's still so much misconception and stigma that most a lot of mental health, whether it be anxiety or depression is just a temporary state that there's a way to physically control it, and yes, there's definitely some behavioral changes and some tactics that you can do to maybe help manage it or lessen it in the moment. But they're chemical imbalances, and they are, you know, oftentimes environmentally charged as well, and medicine needs, oftentimes, is the best remedy for it. And, you know, being able to kind of go to some of these stories and talk about how depression or anxiety has impacted someone, and maybe even that, that really sad intersection with suicide or addiction, you know, I think the power of human stories, and just being able to get to someone on that, you know, get to their heart, almost, I think, has been so powerful and has really helped me be able to, I think, communicate and what is it? It's ah-- is it? Is it ethos, no pathos? I think, right when we're talking about rhetoric. So really, being able to lean more so on that pathos versus, you know, I'm a very like, I said black and white, so I would typically go to like, the logos part, which doesn't always sit well with people. So I will say that that's that's been really helpful in terms of the way that I approach, just to actually be able to use some of the stories that I've heard to be able to communicate and hopefully help change people's minds on certain things.

Elle Billing: 29:24

Thank you for that. So I mentioned a little bit ago that I used to work at the school for the deaf, and it was, it was a school for the deaf and blind. I just worked in the Deaf/Hard of Hearing department. So one of the things I noticed, and I've noticed over a long period of time, first in that career as a teacher of the deaf and hard of hearing, and now as a disabled person, and like a once, now that I've seen it, I can't unsee it. It's that kind of phenomenon because I've seen it, and now I know what it looks like, and now I see it everywhere. Is the amount of paternalism that disabled, deaf, and blind individuals experience from well-meaning, but largely uninformed, people who are abled, hearing and/or sighted, so the people who misunderstand and mean well but end up being really paternalistic or condescending. My disability has an extensive amount of fatigue that comes with it, and I'm usually so fatigued in those situations that I'm not especially tactful, or I just don't address it because I'm too tired. So I'm curious what, what your approach is to addressing paternalism when it happens to you as a blind individual.

Teisha Gillespie: 30:33

Hmm, that's a that's a good one. I definitely can relate to you in terms of, you know, being, I think, more, maybe not necessarily physically fatigued, but more so exhausted by, and I think you've talked about this too, just constantly having to fight for yourself or advocate, or constantly having to re explain things. And it really does depend. I really try to, because my sight is limited. I feel like I have this extra sense where I can, you know, my partner, you know, I don't know if you also identify it as having this two Elle, but my partner, who is also ADHD, you know, really relies on his vibes. And for me, I can actually feel energy from coming from someone you know, whether it's like positive energy or toxic energy or maybe it's just neutral. But I feel like that might be kind of similar maybe to what the vibes are that maybe other people feel. And so if I get, you know, kind of that toxic, negative vibe or energy, I don't necessarily like this, but oftentimes it's, you know, I don't even bother. I'm not going to be able to change your mind. You know, we were engaging this, in this two minute interaction right now, there's probably no point to even doing this, so I just in that time. You know, that's, that's where we talk about the intersection between stigma and silencing. That's where I sometimes fall silent and I just, I just go on, and I try to forget about it. But if I do feel like there is an opportunity, especially in places where I have a relationship that's a little bit more long term, that's where it I try to do what they say as showing versus telling. And so there's a lot of you know, oftentimes where people you know, even though I'm blind, I'm not deaf, I'm not mute. People will talk to other people and ask them questions about me, even though I'm right there, because I can't see you, so I must not be able to, you know, actually respond to you, that that what I would say really gets to me. And so that's one of the situations, regardless of the energy that I'm feeling, that I will speak up and say, Hey, you can ask me that question. And by the way, the answer is, dot, dot, dot. But then there's kind of just the the you know, in the workplace, people maybe not thinking that you're able to perform as high or just do the same types of tasks that other people can do. And yes, we can do them, but they do require some accommodations to level the playing field, like we were talking about earlier, screen readers. That's one way I'm able to perform in the workplace and have it be at this the same level as other people. And so, you know, just being able to actually do my job, like literally show people that I'm able to do marketing the same way that you're able to do marketing. And guess what, I'm also able to perform at a very, very high level. I my analytical skills are just as high as yours. My problem solving skills are just as high as yours. My communication skills, both verbally and written, are just as high as yours. I just have to listen to something tell me everything that's on my computer screen, versus you being able to use your eyes to scan the computer screen. So, you know, I feel like, for me, I do feel as if sometimes that I've had to, quote, unquote, work harder than other people, because there's kind of, you know, like the the measuring stick by which you know, I'm being judged, at least from my perception. I've never actually had anyone tell me this, that Oh, Teisha, we're gonna make you hit this 24 inch high stick versus everyone else. only has to hit like 18 inches. But again, it's kind of that vibe or that energy that I feel from certain people. And so yes, I do feel as if I've had to perform at a much higher level and have better metrics than people, or maybe get something done faster, or just do more work in less time. And I think our that is due to my disability, sometimes it's because I am in the marketing field, especially earlier on, there weren't necessarily a lot of women, and definitely not a lot of women of color. And so it's, you know. You have to do twice as much in half the time, almost, and so. But with that said, I've been, regardless of the motivation behind it, I have been able to kind of show people what a blind person can do in the workplace, what a blind person can do in terms of interacting in personal communities, um, and even, I think, with my podcast too, I think I've been able to show, you know, other, not just sighted people, but even other blind or low vision people who may not have role models. You know, one thing that I talk a lot about on my my podcast, that people are probably like, okay, Teisha, we've heard this so many times, is this, you know, we talk about privilege, and oftentimes, privilege, again, can have this negative connotation, but there is a positive privilege when it comes to exposure privilege. Some people have the privilege of being exposed to a very diverse group of people. You know, some people grow up and they're automatically surrounded by multiple people with disabilities or people with different sexual orientations or gender identities or ethnic backgrounds, and they just been so fortunate to grow up in that type of environment where there's other people were only around one group of people, like it's a very homogenous community, and so they don't know anything else, right? And so even when it comes to blind and low vision people, there are sometimes stigmas even within the community itself, because they don't even realize that there can be something different about their lives. I'm sorry. I feel like I've been blabbing on a little bit, but I do really try to show people as often, as much as I can, versus telling them, because I do think that being able to actually go out and do something is oftentimes more impactful versus just saying, like you don't your belief is wrong, and know that you know what blind people or what low vision people can do is very different from maybe what you're imagining they can do.

Elle Billing: 36:58

Yeah, I get that, all right. I have one question left, and like you said, you kind of touched on it a little bit, but I'm going to be like, it's going to be like, a more like, specific ask and probably a little more precise answer, since I'm asking it directly. Sorry, that wasn't a knock. I don't think you're blabbering at all. I'm just like, this is like a one type of like, sorry, I'm having trouble wordsing Today, the question, I like it when you talk a lot, because you have a lot of really good stuff to say. My point was that this question is, like, really zeroed in on, like, one specific thing about your podcast is what I was trying to say. Oh, okay, what is one true thing that you have learned from doing your podcast?

Unknown: 37:48

I think there's so many things that I could say here, some of which I've briefly touched on throughout this conversation, because there's been so many and I know this can be a really tough subject for maybe some people to hear, especially if you've known someone or maybe you've tried yourself to take your life from suicide. But when it comes to suicide, one true thing that I've learned is that there is no shame in suicide, you know, there, we've talked about kind of stigma a lot, and you know, one thing that stigma causes is a lot a lot of personal, internal shame about your experiences, even experiences that you may not have any control over, and some of that might be your predisposition to depression. Some of it might be that you unfortunately were born with the chronic condition of vertigo, and you live, literally live every day with a migraine. And because you're constantly like, you live every day with a migraine, and so a lot of the time you're just spent, and I'm sure Elle, I know that you've also, you also deal with chronic migraine, and I know you also, you know you, you spend a lot of time sleeping, which is great. I I wish I probably don't sleep enough. But if you if, for some people, if you live in that type of state, it really can cause this deep seated depression, and you can think that there's no way out, especially if there are systems telling you that your condition is not an actual condition, and no, we're not going to treat you like everyone else and maybe give you, you know, the financial assistance that you need, or the health benefits that you need to find some way to manage this, even just a little bit. I think that one thing that I really learned is that the intersection between shame and suicide is so strong, it really and there's, you know, a lot of people think that, oh, you know, I've been depressed before, but I never kill myself. When it comes to depression, it really can be this debilitating experience, and sometimes it might only last for a few months, sometimes it can last for a couple of years. And I think the way that if someone does end up taking their life by suicide, there are people, siblings and spouses and friends that are left behind, and the stigma, in a way, persist and get, then gets placed upon the family members and the friends that were left behind. It's like, like they did that. They left you, they they were selfish, they were weak.

Elle Billing: 40:55

Yeah, and it's not like that at all.

Teisha Gillespie: 40:57

No, oh my gosh. And it's, you know, I tell you know, I think a really great example that I heard in this past season is that people react so differently. If you say, Hey, I lost my parent to cancer versus I lost my parent to suicide, it's jarring how different it is, but it does not change the grief and the anger and the sadness

Elle Billing: 41:21

I've noticed a reframing of the way people talk about -- like and a lot of advocacy circles, particularly around mental health and suicide prevention. But you know, people saying someone died from depression, like they died of the disease of depression, like the depression ended up being the disease that caused their death. So, like, people understand that it's not just people just don't wake up one morning and decide to complete suicide. It's like a chronic disease, and that's just one incarnation of it.

Unknown: 42:01

And because things like mental health themselves are, there's still-- we were talking about it earlier-- there's still so much stigma around it. People don't seek help

Elle Billing: 42:10

right now trying to find a therapist anywhere is difficult. It's difficult because that's just compounding the situation for people who are in mental health crises. Because I think a lot of therapists and counselors left the field during and after COVID Because they were, I mean, their caseloads went up, and that was a really tough time for everybody, especially the mental health field and really all the care fields, it's really hard to get in and get seen for that kind of

Unknown: 42:40

It's so hard. It's so hard. I've personally been stuff right now. looking for a therapist. And I really could have used one of these last six months too. And I think that would have been, that would have, you know, maybe not have gotten rid of every thing that I was feeling, but it definitely would have helped. And I think that that's been something, you know, I haven't had a therapist since last, last October, so it's been almost a year.

Elle Billing: 43:05

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I think that's really important, that conversation about stigma and shame, people need support and love and understanding and compassion, not not that other stuff.

Unknown: 43:20

Yeah. Yeah, empathy.

Elle Billing: 43:23

Well, thank you for being here. I'm glad we finally got to sit down together.

Teisha Gillespie: 43:28

Thank you so much Elle for having me. I've-- this has been a really, really great conversation, and I hope I didn't dampen the mood.

Elle Billing: 43:36

Oh no,

Teisha Gillespie: 43:37

going in that direction.

Elle Billing: 43:38

No, not at all. We take the full spectrum here. So just for a little final blurb, where can people find your podcast?

Unknown: 43:51

So Not Your Average GOAT. You can find it on all major podcast platforms. So Spotify, Apple, YouTube, I heart, Amazon Music. We're on social media at Not Average GOAT across Meta, also on LinkedIn as well, if you hang out there,

Elle Billing: 44:08

Great. Once again, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Hoorf. To get the complete show notes and all the links mentioned on today's episode, or to get a full transcript of the episode, visit hoorfpodcast dot com. Join the Blessed Herd of St Winkus. By signing up for our newsletter, you can get Hoorf episodes delivered directly to your inbox. What's more, you get invitations to our monthly Coffee and Biscuits chat, where you get to hang out with Ricki and Elle, talk about the show, and connect on the topics that mean the most to you. You can sign up for that at hoorfpodcast.com . If you become a patron for only $3 a month, you can support the creation of this podcast, elp pay my editor, and join a community of caregivers out here just doing our best. Thank you, again for joining me, Elle Billing, the chronically ill queer femme who is very tired, on this episode of Hoorf .Until next time, be excellent to each other. Hoorf is hosted by Elle Billing@elleandwink, audio editing by Ricki Cummings, @rickiep00h music composed by Ricki Cummings. Hoorf is a production of Elle & Wink Art Studio, LLC, all rights reserved. Hoorf can be found on all social media platforms @hoorfpodcast, at H, O, O, R, F, podcast. Ricki is a genius, and we'll edit that out.