Hoorf! Radical Care in a Late-Capitalist Heckscape

Q4Q: becoming the leader you need and want, with queer leadership coach Joris Grey

• Elle Billing • Season 3 • Episode 3

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Content note: this episode contains swearing, discussions of death and grief

On this episode, Elle welcomes Joris Grey, a leadership coach working with queer entrepreneurs to build businesses that align with their values. Joris shares his perspective on unlearning toxic masculinity, and how that journey shapes his approach to authentic leadership. We explore the wisdom of listening to our bodies (even when capitalism tells us not to), and dive into the real challenges of being visibly queer in professional spaces. The conversation takes us into some deeper waters as we discuss the rising threats to LGBTQ rights, both in Joris's home country of the Netherlands and globally. But at its heart, our discussion keeps circling back to the importance of authenticity and community for personal and collective liberation.

Links to work with Joris, as well as all other resource links, are **in the full show notes at hoorfpodcast.com

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Elle Billing:

Hi. My name is Elle Billing. I am a chronically ill queer femme, and I'm tired. I'm here this episode and every episode to dig at the roots of our collective fatigue, explore ways to direct our care in compassionate and sustainable ways, and to harness creative expression to heal ourselves and to heal our world. Welcome to Hoorf: Radical Care in a Late Capitalist Heckscape.

Ricki Cummings:

Hello, Ricki on the intro this week, our guest this week is Joris Gray. He/ him. Joris is a leadership coach for queer entrepreneurs who don't fit the norm and want to build a business and team they desire. With 12-plus years of business experience and six years of experience coachingentrepreneurs, Joris is able to provide clarity, strategy, effective communication, and leadership tools to help queer entrepreneurs move the needle on their business goals and create businesses that make selling easy and joyful. When Joris is not growing businesses, he is walking his dog, reading stacks of books--current favorites are sci fi and homoerotic novels--or thinking about food. This one's been a long time in the making. Welcome to Hoorf.

Elle Billing:

Oh, thank God for Ricki. Ricki is the best, speaking of people who have our backs and do the ops

Joris Grey:

absolutely

Elle Billing:

so I went through a phase in middle school where I was trying to figure out what my nickname was supposed to be. Is supposed to be. I was named after my dad, whose name is Daniel; my full given like, government / birth name is Danielle. And at the time, I wanted to have an original name, of course, because I was like, Well, I'm named after my dad--which now I think is cool, right, as an adult, and I have a really solid relationship with my dad. I'm like, my name kicks ass.

Joris Grey:

Yeah.

Elle Billing:

And the reason I go by Elle is kind of to sort of separate my business life from my personal life, so that I have this like online persona who's different from my my home personal life. But also because I worked at a Deaf school for a long time, and my sign name, my name in ASL, was Elle. So I went by Elle for so many years, starting in college all the way through my first career, that I just, I like that name. So like, I like to go by that name. It sounds nice.

Joris Grey:

Does it feel like a nick nickname? Ish to you?

Elle Billing:

It feels like a name. It feels like I have two names, and both of them are fine, and they're separate identities, kind of, but they're both me, but I'm also gender fluid, so like, it works to have two names.

Joris Grey:

It works so good for you, though,

Elle Billing:

yeah, yeah. It's like, yeah, this fits. Plus Ricki's spouse is also named Danielle, and goes by Dani. And so when we're in the same space together, we share the name Danielle, and it's just a lot less confusing for everybody.

Joris Grey:

It's so convenient, right?

Elle Billing:

Yeah, it just worked out really well. Danielle was a very popular name in the Midwest in the 80s, and so to be able, for us, to be able to just sort of have part of the name, and already that was already kind of established when we got together, and it wasn't something we had to figure out. But when I was in middle school, I wanted a nickname,

Joris Grey:

yeah, I get it.

Elle Billing:

And when I was born, my parents thought they were gonna call me Danni.

Joris Grey:

That's a good name for you.

Elle Billing:

Yeah, it never stuck. It never stuck. There's like two or three people in the whole world that call me Danni. They didn't know if I was gonna be a boy or girl, I was either going to be Daniel or Danielle. They're like, well, Danni fits. And that's what my dad went by his whole like, growing up years and they just wanted, they thought it would be really special. And I just, I, as a little kid, I wasn't a Danni. It's like, either you are, you aren't,

Joris Grey:

yeah

Elle Billing:

but my sister had nicknames coming out of everywhere. I was like, well, that's not fair. And she still does like, but now I call her by her full name most of the time, and she didn't realize that I was doing that. And one time she thought I was being really condescending. And she's like, why'd you call me Katrina? It's like, I always call you Katrina. She's like, what? And my partner was like, yeah, she calls you that all the time. She's like, Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were, being I thought you were being mean.

Joris Grey:

I wonder if this is part of many, like, people who go through transition, or are trans, or non binary, trans, like that they're so focused on their nicknames when they're like younger because, like, our language in our times weren't like they were, were developed around trans identities and stuff. So I wonder if like that a focus on nicknames is true for many people. I need to ask curious about

Elle Billing:

I don't know. I'm curious about that too, because I definitely was going through a like, Well, who am I?

Joris Grey:

Yeah,

Elle Billing:

like, what do I want my name to be? I wanted it to be something --vWell, I also wanted to be a writer. And so I wanted something like, catchy me too.

Joris Grey:

Like I was always thinking about my writer name,

Elle Billing:

and there was already a Danny, a boy Danny, in my class. And so I, I really wanted to be Danni B. I wanted it to be, I wanted the last initial to be part of the name. And I knew that Danni had to have an "I" in it because that was, like, different than the boy, Danny,

Joris Grey:

yeah, yep,

Elle Billing:

and Danny B. And I could never get my teachers to say the whole thing together, when they were calling out paper names, and they'd say Danni, and they're like, he's in the other class. I'm like, No, that's me and it's Danni B, and they just never do it. And so I gave up.

Joris Grey:

Oh, yeah. So good. So yeah.

Elle Billing:

So and my sister started kind of giving me nicknames in high school, and some of them, those have stuck, which between the two of us, but no one else calls me those so, but my sister and I have lots of nicknames between us, because that growing up together as our only playmates thing, yeah, does that

Joris Grey:

Yeah.

Elle Billing:

So anyway, welcome to Hoorf. It's nice to have you here.

Joris Grey:

Thank you so much for having me.

Elle Billing:

We have been trying to do this for months, and I am so glad that we made this work. It is the beginning of the day for me. It is the end of the day for you,

Joris Grey:

it is yeah.

Elle Billing:

So we are going to get this done and dusted and then you can go to bed.

Joris Grey:

Yeah, so I have some other appointments after this, but, yeah,

Elle Billing:

oh, okay. What time is it there?

Joris Grey:

It's six.

Elle Billing:

Oh, it's not that late. Okay, okay, I thought it was, I thought it was later,

Joris Grey:

yeah, it feels late, like time for bed.

Elle Billing:

Yeah, usually by the end of the day I'm ready to, like, change into sweats and not do anything same, like after 3pm like, don't call me, like,

Joris Grey:

yeah. It's like, I am in my sweats. I am not facing the world. I'm gonna eat ice cream,

Elle Billing:

yeah. So I am happy to have you here today. I am here in North Dakota. You are there in the Netherlands, and so we've been trying to make this work with time zones and tech issues, and today's the day. It must mean it's like an auspicious day since we finally made it work. Yeah, so I am going to ask, how have you received care this week?

Joris Grey:

I love this question, and every time the answer was different, because we kept on rescheduling, right? It's, it's a different question, yeah, yeah, it's such a good it's like a good one to check in with yourself daily. So one of my it's starting grim already, like one of my walking buddies died a week ago.

Elle Billing:

Oh, gosh, I'm so sorry.

Joris Grey:

Yeah, thank you. In a really horrible way. So I got a lot of support from friends and like, it's one of those moments in time where it matters who shows up for you, and it also matters if you ask for help, right? I'm not the most vulnerable guy. People who meet me say, like, you're such a vault, like you're so closed off to people, so I started learning to show my vulnerability. And I think as a guy, that's really tough, like for everybody, but it's not gender specific, but for guys specifically, there's this toxic masculinity culture where you cannot show like the inside of your heart, right? And I think especially for trans men is really hard, because we think we need to be really toxic, really strong and masculine and really out there, very toxic as well with girls and I started delearning All the things that I know about masculinity, like a couple of years ago. So this is one of those things, like, I want to be vulnerable. I want to be a guy who you can build on, especially because I'm a leadership coach, I want people to see that I lead by example, and that is also talking about grief, talking about my vulnerable spaces. And I asked a friend this morning to go to the place where my walking friend died, and to lay down some flowers and candles, and I specifically asked for a friend to come along so that we as guys could just cry there together, and that he could see me in a vulnerable place. And that was a step for me, like honestly in friendships. And he was there, like he showed up. I know, how fucking busy this dude is. Instead, he was there outside of my office, and we walked together to the place where my walking friend died, and I don't know just people are reaching out and checking in, how you're doing, all these things. That was how I received care.

Elle Billing:

Yeah, that is some really deep care to be able to be like, held and witnessed and to have space, to be vulnerable like that.

Joris Grey:

Yeah, it takes a huge level of trust for me. I'm unlearning like, my default would be to run away from people and just hide or, like, pretend that I'm super strong and and I am like people, when you meet me like I'm a super masculine guy. But that doesn't mean that I cannot be vulnerable in my strength, and that could be my strength. So yeah, yeah, default would be running away.

Elle Billing:

That is a really profound example of receiving care. Wow. Thank you for sharing that

Joris Grey:

you're so welcome.

Elle Billing:

I think even sharing that is another level of vulnerability.

Joris Grey:

Yeah, it is, yeah, because I want to be perceived as a certain like person, like we all do, right? And for me, especially at the start of my transition, I had this image of myself, how I wanted to be perceived, but that was all embedded in toxic masculinity. I'm like, That's not like, I'm not that person, and still, I'm trying to show up, even in like professional, more professionals having such as this, trying to show up as the leader that I want to be led by.

Elle Billing:

No, I get that. I think, nope. I don't actually have a thought there. I think you said it really well. I don't need to add to that. So you you talked about being a leader and showing up as the leader that you want to be led by. Can you talk a little bit about your work and what you do with leadership work?

Joris Grey:

Yeah, absolutely. So I work with queer businesses specifically, I think I want to start there, because that's where also the leadership ties in.

Elle Billing:

Yeah, perfect,

Joris Grey:

specifically with queer businesses, because I think we are our marginalized group in and of itself, right? Especially as business owners, you are already like in a place where you need to overcome yourself constantly when it comes to sales or putting yourself out there. And I think for queer businesses, in specific, the whole world tells you that you don't belong. Right? Every day we get taught like we don't belong. We're not welcome here. We're like not the norm, because we are a marginalized group, and I see so many queer business owners struggle with that piece alone in and of themselves, and they don't believe that they could be successful as a queer business owners, because they don't fundamentally believe that they belong. And there's not yet many examples for queer business owners, of successful leaders, for example, in queer business spaces. And I saw so many queer businesses that wanted to find their place in success and in the online world, offline world, but they ended up in all these, like, very gendered spaces,

Elle Billing:

yes, yes!

Joris Grey:

like, either women's groups or men's groups and [??] or like even their language is so exclusive and like they're queer people are excluded from these spaces just by how, like, how it's market all these business groups and business coaches and business leaders. So I wanted to change that, and I wanted to show also, like queer businesses, that you can be really fucking successful as a business owner, especially when you're queer. And I think in addition to that, I believe that we as queer business owners do things a little different. We need to learn. We can learn we have to. You don't have to do anything, but you can learn that it's more so about in building support networks and communities and doing like a rising tide lifts all ships, but especially for queer business owners, we can learn that we can do this all together successfully, and then profit is the cherry on top.

Elle Billing:

I've definitely noticed the the gender nature of of business groups. There's a there's a group I want to apply to be like, do one of their monthly keynotes too, and it's like, the women's connect group. And I already know going in that it's going to be an environment where I don't quite fit in,

Joris Grey:

yeah

Elle Billing:

like, right off the bat, and I'm working on my proposal, and I'm like, you said queer business owners, we do things differently, and we already have kind of a difference about us and what we do and what we talk about, and that's going to be part of my proposal is like, Yes, I'm perceived as a woman, like I'm gender fluid femme. I don't quite fit in this group, but I think what I have to offer will, like, get them to think about things a little differently, and I still think I fit enough to, like, be really powerful for your group. Yeah, I don't think I'll fit in 100% of the time. I'm probably not going to come back, like, I don't want to come every month. Like, that's, that's, I might be a little uncomfortable,

Joris Grey:

yeah,

Elle Billing:

but I really, but I really think that, like, how I do things, and think about things is important for other people to see

Joris Grey:

absolutely, because they cannot adapt their blind spots if no one points them out to them, right?

Elle Billing:

Yep.

Joris Grey:

So I had to, like mask so much early on in my transition, like just dealing with gendered language alone, because I was only in female business groups at the time,

Elle Billing:

yep

Joris Grey:

and I had to, like, really sit through all that gendered language just to get some business support. And it's not the fault of, like, the business coach or anything. There's no fault here. It's just outdated, an outdated way of doing leadership consultancy and business consultancy.

Elle Billing:

Yes, you do somatics in your leadership training and like personally as well. That's a word that I've heard a lot more lately than I used to hear it. And I don't know if it's one of those things that once you hear it, you keep hearing it like you just notice it once you know it, or if it's actually becoming more integrated into what people are doing.

Joris Grey:

I think it's both.

Elle Billing:

Is it both? Okay? So, and I remember when we were emailing and prepping for this, you were like, I would love to talk about somatics. Like, please ask me about somatics. So this is me asking about somatics. What can you do? Like, what is it like give us a crash course and why you love it and what it does for us. We don't have a weekend retreat here to go through it, but we have a few minutes on a podcast.

Joris Grey:

So normally, I work with with people for 12 months, right? So,

Elle Billing:

yeah, this is not a 12 month interview, no.

Joris Grey:

And I have to work with people for 12 months to fully teach them how their body works for them. That is the main part of what I teach, what I do with a lot of people is your body can never lie to you, but we don't even know how to tune into our bodies to get the wisdom that we need out. Most of the people that I work with don't even know how to notice their own body. Does my stomach gurgle? When does it gurgle? When does my heart skip a beat? Or what is that tight sensation in my belly? Do I have a tight sensation in my belly? What does that tell me, without adding stories? So what I differentiate on a lot is that there's so much mind clutter. As an entrepreneur, and especially a leader, when you start to lead people, shit blows up in your face like you get triggered so fucking much.

Elle Billing:

Oh my gosh, well, and not even just leading people, but just like doing our jobs, right? My Instagram and my Threads got suspended last week. Yeah, like, I laid down for a nap and they were there, and I woke up two hours later and they were gone. And you want to talk about, like, what is my body telling me?

Joris Grey:

Oh, tell me.

Elle Billing:

So, what did it do? Oh, I ended up with like a rock. It felt like a rock right in below my solar plexus at the top of my stomach. And I was like, oh, okay, so I have a stomach ache. Because, like, I am, I think, fairly in tune with my body. I have chronic illnesses and I get migraines and so, like, I definitely notice when things change to the point where people are like, you, you couldn't feel that. I'm like, No, I really did.

Joris Grey:

People are surprised, right, that they actually learn about their own bodies and the stories that we make up about them.

Elle Billing:

Yeah. And I was like, oh, okay, I'm anxious. Like, this is giving me anxiety, because I've spent six years building up my Instagram for my art business. Like, this is a huge loss for me, and I don't know what's going to happen. I don't like the unknown. I actually, I had to go to work my part time job. I had a little break. Usually, if I that feeling doesn't go away, I can usually, kind of dance it out. If I do some -- I'm not a good dancer. I'm like, an emotional dancer. I do it in my studio all the time. It's like, it's weird, but no, it's perfect. I just move my body the way it wants to move, and I can usually get, like, close the stress cycle. This is something new I've done in the last three years, and kind of get feelings through my body. And it didn't work, I felt worse. It was an abdominal migraine. I had to take one of my emergency migraine meds to kind of get it to go away, but it still held on for like three days, and I ended up having to take one of my second line migraine medications to finally get it to let go. But it was definitely like a physical response to an external stressor. And I was like, wow, I've invested too much emotionally into Instagram.

Joris Grey:

Yeah, yeah.

Elle Billing:

And so I've just been kind of trying to, like, work around it and just like, wait to see what happened, but it is. It's really stressful

Joris Grey:

yeah, so this is exactly like, like on your own, this is already stressful, right? But as soon as you bring it into teams and your migraines determine how the outcome of the meeting will be, then everybody gets a migraine, right? Right? Or. Like, when I was teaching these exactly the attacks started when I was teaching elementary school during Yeah, right before the holidays, yep, yep. So I work a lot around conflict, for example. Like, if someone has a conflict, how do you deal with it? Like, what kind of sensations come up in your body? do you let your migraines, for example, determine how everybody should vote so that the meeting is over, you can relate to that. Or do you tend to your migraine first and then have the meeting accordingly? So we work a lot around body symptoms and what they mean for you without telling I asked, like, one of my clients said, like, Oh, I think I'm stressed. I'm like, Are you? And then eventually she learned that she wasn't stressed at all. It was totally different symptoms you learn to navigate on, like, the minor sensations of her body. And it also comes up when you do sales, and like, your body never lies to you, right? When you find someone icky, your body will tell you, like, this is not a client for you. And so we first learned to tune in those sensations, and then I start coaching.

Elle Billing:

That's that's really great. I mean, that was something we had to work with our my students on when I was working, because a lot of students with sensory disabilities will have other disabilities along with it, and a lot of my students had neuro differences, so like ADHD, autism, things like that, and so it can be really hard to notice and identify body sensations and notice and identify emotions. So we did a lot of sensory therapy and things like that, and I benefited from that as well. I wasn't diagnosed with ADHD until I was 36 years old, but let me tell you, I learned a lot from the sensory therapist before that, and it was like, this should have been a clue.

Joris Grey:

And like looking back, it was.

Elle Billing:

And, you know, maybe he knew that I had ADHD before I knew. I think a lot of people knew before I knew. I think maybe I was the last person to know,

Joris Grey:

or people didn't have the words for you as a human

Elle Billing:

right. But like that whole what is being able to identify a feeling? And yeah, either a physical feeling or an emotional feeling, that's and yes, I think especially, I don't know what Dutch schools were like, but I know for sure, in American schools, we start really early, teaching kids to ignore their bodies.

Joris Grey:

Same here, like

Elle Billing:

by not letting them go to the bathroom. I think it starts so early, telling kids you don't get to go pee,

Joris Grey:

yeah, or you have to raise your hand to pee, or you can only go two times a day. And I'm like, No, so.

Elle Billing:

yeah. And that was one of the things that I did in my classroom, where, yes, definitely, in elementary school you can pee whenever you have to pee, you have a small bladder,

Joris Grey:

yeah.

Elle Billing:

And my classroom had a bathroom attached to it, so like, why wouldn't I let you go? But even in middle school and high school, there were some teachers who were, like, really, really strict about it. And I was like, You know what? I want you to trust your body, and I'm gonna trust you to trust your body, if you trust me to keep a safe classroom and stuff, like this is a two way street. I'm going to trust that you're not going to take advantage of a relaxed bathroom policy,

Joris Grey:

yeah

Elle Billing:

and just go all the time, and then you can trust that I will let you go when your bladder says that you need to go,

Joris Grey:

I love that

Elle Billing:

and they were like, we can just go? I said, you have to tell me where you're going. I would need to know. I won't count you tardy. If you come in at the beginning and say, I need the bathroom, and then you go, and then come in after the bell,

Joris Grey:

yeah.

Elle Billing:

Like communication. Trust your body, trust me. I trust you. Like this is, this is what being an adult is, and that's what I'm helping you do. So much of our problems, at least here in the US as adults, with trusting our bodies and not knowing when we're sick or ignoring when we're sick, so much of that starts in school,

Joris Grey:

and you need to, like, be super sick to stay at home and all these things, right? Show up when we have a business, they blow up in our face, like people have so many strict professional, quote, unquote rules, and they come to me because they want to create their business professionally. So they want to uplevel and become professional. I'm like, Okay, let's unlearn all that shit, because you need to learn, for example, if you're are in meetings, you need to learn to eat with your coworkers, and we should learn to eat together as a team, and we need to unlearn so much when we lead, because otherwise you will get angry. I just posted this on Instagram. You get angry because you didn't have a snack, or you get angry because you were angry at the bus stop, but you blow out that anger on all your team members because you think someone triggers you, like in that meeting, and you cannot really deal with the first feelings, like instead of the fifth person you're meeting. So it's exactly right. It's embedded in our culture that we cannot trust our bodies and also, we mismatch our actions based on what we think our body is telling us. So yeah, and that that can cost an organization organization a lot of fucking money.

Elle Billing:

Yeah,

Joris Grey:

right?

Elle Billing:

yeah, yep.

Joris Grey:

We fire the wrong person. We let conflict blow up. We we are super overtired and and then we make a decision with our money that's not really informed. Well, all these things, right?

Elle Billing:

Yeah, and you mentioned professionalism, and, like,

Joris Grey:

Yes,

Elle Billing:

I immediately tense up because,

Joris Grey:

oh, you tense up good,

Elle Billing:

well, because I don't, I don't like that word. I pushed back against that a lot when I was teaching, because the whole concept of professionalism, I mean, maybe you'll agree with me, but I'm not going to assume until I say it, professionalism tends to be very sexist, racist, homophobic, transphobic and classist and ableist,

Joris Grey:

absolutely all these things.

Elle Billing:

Yeah. And so the farther you are from being a cis, heterosexual, able bodied white man, at least here in the US, the harder you have to box yourself in to be considered professional

Joris Grey:

according to certain type of standards that don't fit in the majority of businesses

Elle Billing:

No, and trying to be seen as, you know, a professional woman or a professional queer or a professional disabled person, you have to work really, really hard to try and fit in those boxes. And you're never going to,

Joris Grey:

yeah, no, and there's so many better ways to do business and do it professional according to those standards, because our professional standards are actually based embedded in care, right? Can we care for each other? Can we tend to each other? Can we create a support network? Right? That is professionalism to me.

Elle Billing:

Yeah. And I always said that professionalism is an ethic. It's not a look.

Joris Grey:

Oh, that's a good quote. I'm gonna steal that for you, yeah?

Elle Billing:

Do it. Do it, please. I haven't trademarked it. I think everyone should believe that

Joris Grey:

it's 100% right, it's ethics, right?

Elle Billing:

Yeah, and that's, that was part of the thing about teaching too, is like, I don't have to dress a certain way to be a good teacher, I have to show up and support my students and follow the code of ethics. Yes, I realize that I look younger than I am, and sometimes when I wore jeans and flannel to school, you couldn't tell the difference between me and a high schooler, but all the high schoolers knew I was their teacher. So like,

Joris Grey:

yeah, it's how you show up for the other

Elle Billing:

Exactly. And I showed up for them. Like, and if I was in the classroom and they could trust me with their stuff, that's what was important,

Joris Grey:

yeah,

Elle Billing:

not if my shirt had print on it, because I had some of the funniest English teacher shirts ever. Like, please don't tell me I can't wear a shirt with writing on it. I spent years cultivating that T shirt collection. I had one that said THERE, THEIR, THEY'RE on it. Like, I think that'sfunny.

Joris Grey:

Yeah, it is. It is super funny. But this is also like, this ties into the conversation around professionalism, right? I think people get clog, clog their own drain, so much that they cannot show up for other humans anymore. And some of my work is declutter that plug first. Like, what's at your back end, right? What's happening all there is way too complicated. Let's clean that up first so that you can show up for people again, so that you can be human to human. But with all that stuff that you're doing in your business, I don't know what the god people are doing in their business. I'm like, that's not a priority for you. So let's first declutter all that shit and then show up as a human again. So that needs to happen, right? Then we can learn, learn to human.

Elle Billing:

Yeah, oh, learn to human. I love that. I mean, I use, like, automation and stuff for some of my and not even a lot, because I'm an artist, and so the only things I can really automate are, like, if someone signs up for my newsletter, I can automate it being added to my CRM in a different in a different program, right? Like, minimal automation, but like, one of my grounding pillars for myself is like to be relentlessly human.

Joris Grey:

Yeah

Elle Billing:

just show up authentically. So if that means one of my newsletters goes out and it's a little weirder than I mean, they're always a little weirder than usual. Like, I would rather alienate somebody who decides that I'm just not for them.

Joris Grey:

Oh, 100,000% Yeah.

Elle Billing:

than produced content that's just kind of meh.

Joris Grey:

Yeah, yeah. Like the Safe, safe-ish, yeah.

Elle Billing:

So, like, one of my my newsletters this summer that went out, had a video of my dog in the car at the car wash, because I. I guess that's not relentlessly human, that's relentlessly canine. But we had taken her to the vet, and they had to sedate her to get images of her knee, because they had to manipulate her knee to get the images, and she had ruptured her ACL and so she was in a lot of pain, and so they sedated her, and she had come out of sedation, but she was still really, really stoned. She was like, really drugged, and because she was in pain and had been a really good girl at the at the vet, we -- her two favorite things are the drive, are drive-throughs, fast food drive- throughs and car washes. So we took her through the drive-through, and there's, like, the flashing lights and like, all the whooshy, whooshy,

Joris Grey:

yeah.

Elle Billing:

And so I have this video of her, like, swaying back and forth, like, with her eyes kind of glazed. And I was pretty certain it was a religious experience for her. I'm pretty sure she saw God.

Joris Grey:

aww

Elle Billing:

But it was so cute that I had them in my newsletter. I'm like, you guys, it was such a bad week. She injured her knee, like all the stuff went on. But here's this really cute video of her in the at the car wash, just like, totally zoned out, I said, and also, we went and got a pup cup at the ice cream place. Those are her two favorite things. And, like, I thought that was so much better than, like, whatever professional, here's what I'm doing in the studio.

Joris Grey:

But isn't that, like so many queer people need to unlearn that image first, right? They need to wash themselves off of like the cishet toxic culture first to learn what their sort of professionalism is. So it's hard for people like, it's such because we there's so much fear attached to it, right? Like, will I then make money? Can I pay my bills? I think you can pay your bills a lot better if you just show up in your business as you are, yeah, but learn first what that looks like.

Elle Billing:

I mean, my podcast was named by my dog. I think I have a pretty good start showing up as myself.

Joris Grey:

Absolutely.

Elle Billing:

I don't think I ever learned how not to. I mean, I tried. There were lots of times where I definitely tried to put on this very professional persona,

Joris Grey:

yeah

Elle Billing:

especially like when I was student teaching, and one of the staff at the school was like, you really need to rein it in. And I was like, Oh, that was really hard. That was a really hard period for me. Was like, not being me.

Joris Grey:

Yeah

Elle Billing:

I knew I didn't want to do that. I was like, I can't Okay. I know right now I need to be at a school where I get to be myself,

Joris Grey:

I think also our communication starts to be so much more clear when we are authentic, and we bring that to our businesses like it clutter, Declutters all our all levels of our business, if we learn to show up authentically, because then we can also attend to these, set our boundaries, we take accountability, we can authentically delegate, because we learn how to do these things as ourselves,

Elle Billing:

Right? And I think that's, you know, most of the people I know who are now solopreneurs or business owners or who have gone the route of starting their own business, I think that's why most of us have done it is because we we didn't fit in wherever we were before,

Joris Grey:

True

Elle Billing:

or something happened in our life where we're like, I can't do this anymore.

Joris Grey:

Yep, yep. That's me. Like, I cannot work for a boss. Like, please no.

Elle Billing:

Yeah. And like, for me, like, I was kind of selling art on the side before, but I burnt out teaching, and I got really ill, and I couldn't work full time in that setting or any setting anymore. I need more time to rest, and that's just how it has to be now. And I've said before, I never wanted to be a business owner. I just wanted to paint. I think I'm kind of getting the hang of being, of doing this, and because I have a community that I've found and sort of created around me, because doing it by myself is the worst.

Joris Grey:

But it's also it's impossible to do this on your own, right?

Elle Billing:

I'm only a solopreneur on paper, like, right? Huge team around me that, yep, you know, they're not paid necessarily, but like, they're my huge support team.

Joris Grey:

Yeah, I learned leaders to integrate, like, all parts of their life so that they are supported, right? Like, let yourself be supported. Don't do this alone. Yeah.

Elle Billing:

So I don't know what the landscape over there is. I'm -- not like physical landscape, but like what the the culture is like in in the Netherlands or even greater Europe, as far as LGBTQ rights and accessibility and things compared to the US, it's -- over here, it's pretty scattershot. It really depends on where you live, like, because it's such a huge like, the US is so vast, it's so huge, just state by state and even city by city. So what is it like there, as far as since you work with queer businesses, do you work exclusively with Dutch businesses, or do you have international clients as well? Is it more accessible and easier to be queer in the Netherlands?

Joris Grey:

These are two exactly good questions,

Elle Billing:

or is that too broad of a question to cover? Like,

Joris Grey:

I'm, like, I'm a pretty good listener. I mean, that's part of my job, right? So I hear, yeah, like, what's the cultural landscape? Do you solely only work with Dutch businesses?

Elle Billing:

Yeah? Sorry

Joris Grey:

You're there. Yeah,

Elle Billing:

that was a lot. Sorry, I can't help it. I'm a curious girl.

Joris Grey:

No, it's perfect. So the first question, it's so not easier here as a queer person.

Elle Billing:

Okay,

Joris Grey:

it gets worse and worse. I think by the day, it gets worse to be a queer person.

Elle Billing:

So the rise of the far right is, yeah, global problem.

Joris Grey:

It's a global fucking problem. It's been there for a long time, but now it's like kind of breaking breaking through, I think

Elle Billing:

it out loud, like they're saying the quiet parts out loud,

Joris Grey:

yeah, yeah, yeah. And everybody's allowing them. So that was the fucked up thing, but it was far right for a long time, especially in the Netherlands, like, the Netherlands is not so what's it called? Like, progressive as people think,

Elle Billing:

yep

Joris Grey:

especially around trans rights and LGBTQ rights, like, it's horrible. I think it's I'm lucky that I have insurance and stuff gets covered, but the rest like, like, I can be open about, like, being trans on this podcast, for example, but I cannot be in, like, quote, unquote, real life. What does that even mean? I work International, so for me, this is real life. But yeah, I can be open about being trans in closed circles. And I think that is so fucked up, right? I have to tell a lot of people around me like, I am stealth. You cannot talk about my transition. You cannot tell people that I'm trans, because it's very dangerous for me. Like, it's horrible. So that is the first part. I think it's not better. I think it's getting worse. So,

Elle Billing:

yeah, yeah, that's a lot, like, God, in a lot of places here too. Yeah, yeah. I lived in Idaho before, like, for many years, and then I moved. I mean, I grew up here in North Dakota, and then I moved to Idaho, and then I'm back here, and I'm lucky to be in a small town that's decently supportive. I mean, really, small town, 800 people, yeah,

Joris Grey:

that's small, yeah.

Elle Billing:

But, um, my partner hasn't had any problems in my hometown, which is good. She lives in Chicago. Ricki. Ricki lives in Chicago most of the time, and Chicago is like way better than where either of us were living before, but Idaho, there, that is not a fun place to live. I mean, my friends are there. I love them. I have a lot of happy memories, and I still feel homesick for Idaho, but I don't think I could ever move back.

Joris Grey:

Yeah?

Elle Billing:

Like, it's just not safe. No. I mean, the far right never left Idaho, like in other places where people are surprised at the that they have, it's like, oh gosh, everything's like, so radical now. And I'm like, yeah, it's always been that way. There's always been pockets of that in Idaho that never got quiet. Like, yeah, there's always been a contingent of that very vocal in Idaho,

Joris Grey:

yeah.

Elle Billing:

So one last question,

Joris Grey:

yep

Elle Billing:

what is one true thing that you have learned from your work with queer businesses?

Joris Grey:

Okay, that was not on the list.

Elle Billing:

Oh, I thought I included that one at the end. I'm sorry.

Joris Grey:

No, no, don't, don't apologize. It's a good question. Let me think; one true thing. Oh yeah, I think one true thing that I learned from queer businesses. So I've only, I've been a business coach for a long time, like, I think seven? Six, seven years or so. That's pretty long because it's pretty solid business.

Elle Billing:

Oh yeah,

Joris Grey:

I've always done it on the side. It was always myself, and then I grew into full time coaching. But the last year and a half, I started working solely only. Well, majority of my clients are queer. You can be like if you're an ally, you are also welcome. Absolutely. I work International, so that's good to know, I think. But the one true thing that I learned is that queerness, in and of itself, is really messy, but we don't allow that mess in our businesses. We think we can exclude that beautiful, precious, amazing, glorious mess. We think we can exclude that from our companies. But I think if we allow in that chaos, our businesses will be so much better. So much more authentic.

Elle Billing:

I love that so much. We are beautiful messes, aren't we?

Joris Grey:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Elle Billing:

Thank you.

Joris Grey:

You're so welcome,

Elle Billing:

great.

Joris Grey:

Thank you. Thank you for being here today. I had a great time. Me too.

Elle Billing:

I hope the rest of your appointments this evening go well,

Joris Grey:

so they won't, it will be, will be horrible.

Elle Billing:

Oh, sorry

Joris Grey:

I know. So, yeah, it's okay. I have to visit with a couple of friends. We will visit the site where our walking friend died again, so I will meet more people who are also grieving.

Elle Billing:

Well, it's better to grieve together, I think, than to do it by yourself.

Joris Grey:

Absolutely, that's what I learned. Like, that's what I forced myself into, like, Okay, I need to do this with other people. I cannot run away. I cannot hide from this. I need to feel it. Need to be with other people share it.

Elle Billing:

Yeah, well take care of you.

Joris Grey:

Yeah, I will take care of them. They will take care of me, right?

Elle Billing:

Yep, yeah. Are you currently taking new clients?

Joris Grey:

Yes, for coaching.

Elle Billing:

Okay, so where can people find you?

Joris Grey:

Also, my calendar opens up in January again, so I onboard people now for January. The best way is Instagram okay, and you get a feel of what I actually do.

Elle Billing:

So what is your Instagram handles?

Joris Grey:

Joris? Underscore??

Elle Billing:

I'll find it and put it in the show notes,

Joris Grey:

like, me and spelling is like, what it how to write it, but, yeah,

Elle Billing:

okay, that's fine. I will find it, put it in the show notes, and people can find you to come work with you.

Joris Grey:

Yeah, yeah, they can,

Elle Billing:

all right. Thank you for your time.

Joris Grey:

Tonight was really nice. Thank you for your brilliant questions.

Elle Billing:

Oh, well, you're welcome. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Hoorf. to get the complete show notes and all the links mentioned on today's episode, or to get a full transcript of the episode, visit Hoorf podcast dot com. Join the Blessed Herd of Saint Winkus! By signing up for our newsletter, you can get Hoorf episodes delivered directly to your inbox. What's more, you get invitations to our monthly Coffee and Biscuits Chat, where you get to hang out with Ricki and Elle, talk about the show, and connect on the topics that mean the most to you. You can sign up for that at hoorfpodcast dot com. If you become a patron for only $3 a month, you can support the creation of this podcast, help pay my editor and join a community of caregivers out here, just doing our best. Thank you again for joining me, Elle Billing, the chronically ill queer femme who is very tired, on this episode of Hoorf! Until next time, be excellent to each other. Hoorf is hosted by Elle Billing @elleandwink, audio editing by Ricki Cummings@rickiep00h music composed by Ricki Cummings. Hoorf is a production of Elle & Wink Art Studio, LLC, all rights reserved. Hoorf can be found on all social media platforms.@hoorfpodcast at H, O, O, R, F podcast

Joris Grey:

I can't help it. I'm a curious girl.

Contributor

Ricki Cummings

Producer