Hoorf! Radical Care in a Late-Capitalist Heckscape

salutogenesis: anti-urgency, trauma-informed UX, and somatic coaching with designer Wolfe Erikson

• Elle Billing • Season 4 • Episode 3

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 41:38

Send us Fan Mail

Note: This episode contains swearing.

Elle Billing hosts Wolfe Erikson, a queer and disabled civic technology designer and somatic coach. Wolfe discusses their work on Medicare.gov, emphasizing trauma-informed methodologies and participatory design. They highlight the complexities of healthcare design, including the challenges of making healthcare technologies accessible. Wolfe also shares their journey into somatics, explaining its focus on body-based approaches and the importance of reconnecting with the body's wisdom and maintaining a grounded relationship with one's body.

Links to Wolfe's work, as well as all other resource links, are in the full show notes at hoorfpodcast.com

Subscribe to Hoorf! Radical Care in a Late Capitalist Heckscape wherever you listen to your favorite podcast:

Apple | Spotify | YouTube

Join the Blessed Herd of Saint Winkus: Sign up for our newsletter, get Hoorf! episodes delivered directly to your inbox. What's more, you get invitations to our monthly Coffee and Biscuits Chat, where you get to hang out with Ricki and Elle, talk about the show, and connect on the topics that mean the most to you.

Become a Patron:

https://www.buymeacoffee.com/hoorfpodcast/membership

Connect with Elle Billing:

Support the show

Elle Billing:

Hi. My name is Elle Billing. I am a chronically ill queer femme, and I'm tired. I'm here this episode and every episode to dig at the roots of our collective fatigue, explore ways to direct our care in compassionate and sustainable ways, and to harness creative expression to heal ourselves and to heal our world. Welcome to Hoorf: radical care in a late capitalist heckscape. My guest for this episode is Wolfe Erickson. Wolfe uses they, them pronouns, and is a queer and disabled civic technology designer and somatic coach specializing in trauma- informed methodologies and participatory design to improve care quality for individuals navigating the US healthcare system. They studied interaction design at the Copenhagen Institute of Interaction Design, where they received Core 77's Design for Social Impact Award for their thesis project, IN-JOY, a digital community for people living with disability. Currently studying somatics at the Strozzi Institute, Wolfe is expanding their capacity to foster deeper levels of care within themselves, in relationships, and across communities. I'm excited to have them on the podcast today. Welcome. Welcome to Hoorf. It's great to have you.

Wolfe Erikson:

Thank you.

Elle Billing:

Sometimes I totally start off the rails like that. Sorry. Anyway, hi, hello, welcome. How are you?

Wolfe Erikson:

I'm doing well, yeah, I'm excited to be here. Yeah, thanks for having me.

Elle Billing:

Good. I'm glad to have you. We had to reschedule once, and now we're here, and it's great. And I am thrilled to have you here, because I have been following you on social media for quite a while. I've watched some of the work that you've done, and I've been, I've been excited about it. So this is, this is rad. I like, I like it when I can get people that I have kind of been following their work, and then they say yes, and I go,

Wolfe Erikson:

Yeah, that's awesome. I'm really like, I feel really grateful to know that you have been following my work for a while. That's that's really exciting to hear.

Elle Billing:

Yeah, you had done, it was a, like, a symptom tracker, journal, I think a while ago.

Wolfe Erikson:

Yeah, is that how you found me?

Elle Billing:

Yep, that was how I found you. Yeah, I've been following your work for a while after that, so,

Wolfe Erikson:

yeah, cool, yeah, cool. I'm excited to chat with you today.

Elle Billing:

Yes, well, I'm going to start with my first question, which is, how have you received care this week?

Wolfe Erikson:

It's a good question. Well, I've received therapy. I appreciate various therapeutic spaces. I have received care from my partner in taking some things off of my plate,

Elle Billing:

that is always super helpful.

Wolfe Erikson:

Yeah, yeah, very much so. And I have received care from friends in the form of invitations, where people have been very considerate about, you know, various, like, energetic needs. And I've been extended invitations of, you know, pressure you can like, Please, we want you here, but like, there's, there's, you know, show up for as long as you want, as long as your body is is feeling good. Show up for as little as you want, you know. And those kinds of invitations are very welcome for me personally.

Elle Billing:

Yeah, that acknowledgement of capacity is good,

Wolfe Erikson:

yeah, yeah, totally, yeah. And I've got, I feel very lucky to have some friends in my life who, like, really have my back in the way that I often overextend my capacity. And they're like, hey, like, go have a seat. Like, go sit down. And I'm like, Wow, you're so right. I was, like, really pushing myself in a way that was, like, uncomfortable, and so, yeah, I've been given a lot of care this week that I feel very grateful for.

Elle Billing:

That's good. My partner will notice if I'm, if I need a nap, or if I'm hungry and haven't eaten, you should eat something or, like, it might be nap time. Yeah, yeah, thank you. I'll go do that now. Yeah, like, Oh, thanks. I feel so much better.

Wolfe Erikson:

Yeah, exactly, right.

Elle Billing:

I haven't eaten in several hours. Yeah, that's helpful to have those people in our lives. So can you talk about the kind of design work you do and, like, what makes it unique for. How, um, maybe most people think of, like, user experience and digital design, yeah.

Wolfe Erikson:

So I'll provide a little bit of context for, yeah, like, who I am my work and, like, what led me to this moment. So like,

Elle Billing:

yeah, because we've had, like, I've had other kinds of artists and creators on the podcast before, but we haven't really done digital design yet. Yeah, this is like, you're, you're a first type of, you're a first timer, so, like, whatever you want to talk about will be great.

Wolfe Erikson:

Yeah, so currently, where I am with design is, I do design and research for the government. I am a lead designer on a medicare.gov project, so basically, it's my job to ingest research, synthesize research, and research can basically look like talking with beneficiaries, asking them what's going on, asking them what their experience is like for medicare.gov, and so that, like the digital application processes for enrolling in Medicare, and so that could be like, taking a look at claims, that could be paying their premiums, that could be signing up for a different a different kind of plan. And so it's my job to talk with all those people, synthesize that research and then make changes to the website to make it more functional and to make some of that information a little bit more digestible.

Elle Billing:

Okay

Wolfe Erikson:

because healthcare is complicated, very complicated. Yes, yeah, it's very complicated. I've been working for Medicare for the last two and a half years, and there's still things that I will learn every day that I'm like, Huh? I didn't know that. And so that's that's kind of the interesting part about this current state of work is, if it's hard for me, who's thought about this eight hours a day for two and a half years. It's hard for someone who's turning 65 and who this, they're like, I've never done this before, so that's that's where I'm at. Currently, I studied design. I attended the Copenhagen Institute of interaction design. That program was down in Costa Rica. It was a very funny program. I loved it so much. But it was basically studying human-computer interaction. It was studying ways in which humans and life interacts with systems, interacts with products, interacts with itself, really like there's a concept in design called Human Centered Design, and this program was about life centered design, which I really resonated with. Where we're we were sort of attempting to decenter humans from the design process and consider ways in which our our decisions in the design process, we're impacting life outside of outside of humans, and sort of thinking on a more like systemic level of design decision making okay after, after that experience, I went into private healthcare design, doing stuff for like Diabetes technology. I also did some consulting in like endometriosis and multiple sclerosis and some other, some other chronic disease. It's weird to call them industries, but that's really like how private healthcare innovation happens is like, you know, it's how it's to the highest bidder, really, you know, people invest all this time and energy and money into these various technologies. And, you know, eventually they will become accessible in terms of price point, but for the most part, it's not, you know, and so that's, that's kind of what led me to civic technology. And your original question was, you know what? How is this like, different from UX or other, like, kind of design disciplines, and it's really not, I think it's a little bit more specialized in terms of, like, being able to navigate political and health environments. Like, there's specialty information about complex legacy systems within the government. But also, like, how does the body work, you know? And like, when I'm on project for various things, like diabetes, like, I really got to get into, okay, like, how does diabetes work, you know? And like, how does a person using an insulin pump? Like, what is their experience like? So that's, that's what I do.

Elle Billing:

Yeah, I just had to buy, I pick up my parents' prescriptions for them, because my dad still farms full time, and my my mom doesn't drive, and my dad is type two diabetic, and he has, like, a blood sugar monitor and the test strips and stuff. And he had called to order, or called the pharmacy to get new test strips. They don't make them anymore. He had to get a whole new blood sugar monitor because they discontinued his testing strips.

Wolfe Erikson:

Wow.

Elle Billing:

And. And so he had to upgrade to a different style. And what I found interesting was the blood sugar monitor and the test strips, they're not covered by Medicare. I was like, how many people on Medicare are diabetic? It would seem like so many. Like, yeah, like, that would be covered, but it's not the things I learned about Medicare, because I live with my parents and handle their prescriptions.

Wolfe Erikson:

Yeah, yeah, totally.

Elle Billing:

So I looked at your website, and so you and some of your freelance, non government projects. And so did you do the front end and the back end design of those, or just the user experience side?

Wolfe Erikson:

Yeah, so I don't do like, in so to kind of clarify, like, yeah, they're Yeah.

Elle Billing:

I know enough about-- sorry. I know enough of, I have-- my ex husband was a coder, and then I have friends who work in various aspects of things, yeah, but yeah. So like, when they talk about it, like, I know enough to, like, kind of follow along, but then I can't regurgitate any of the correct terms when I need them,

Wolfe Erikson:

honestly same. And that's I think, like, tells you exactly maybe what you need to know. Like, I I can code. Should I code? Probably not.

Elle Billing:

Okay, okay, so no, but not the back end.

Wolfe Erikson:

I'm not doing back end in terms of software, but like, I have done, like, physical prototyping, you know, my, like, my thesis for from grad school was a physical product. So I designed, like, you know, I can get by, but I'm not a coder by any means.

Elle Billing:

Okay, fair, yeah, so the one so we, I prepped for last week, and then a whole week and a migraine has happened since I the one that I remember from your website was the gamified 12 step.

Wolfe Erikson:

Oh, interesting, yeah, yeah.

Elle Billing:

And that's, I probably remember that because I've done 12 step,

Wolfe Erikson:

yeah.

Elle Billing:

So is something like that a typical type of project for you, like, a care focused design like that.

Wolfe Erikson:

Yeah. I mean, all of my projects are care focused, like, really try and I'm currently kind of expanding my definition of health really, like, I went into grad school aiming to do healthcare design, largely because I, like, had had this, like, health experience where I was, like, you know, chronically ill and disabled, and, like, the healthcare system was like, Can I swear on this podcast? Is that okay?

Elle Billing:

Oh yes, yeah, yeah.

Wolfe Erikson:

The healthcare system was like, fuck you actually, no, like, you got to go. And I'm like, All right, well, this sucks. So I went to grad school with the intention of, like, I did it. I've got to make this better. Like, I really want to try and like design different solutions for people, like, trying to access care. And that was five years ago. And so for the last, you know, five years, I've been very dedicated to like, my offerings and my services are, like, specific for designing for care and so, yeah, like, that's, that's the majority of of what I've done over the last five years. Now I'm starting to expand outside of, like, actual medical care, and starting to, like, reframe definitions of, like, what does it mean to be healthy, you know, like, so I think that there are, like, literal health metrics that happen, like, within the body, like, when you try and receive care, like, they're, you know, you're coming in and saying, I have chronic pain, or I have, like, whatever thing is going on with you. Like, yeah, like, treatment needs, needs to happen. But then outside of that, some of the things that I've taken away from some of these projects, like, what do you want to do with your life? Like, you know, maybe in spite of that chronic pain, like, you know, like, how do you what is your longing for your own life? You know, tell me about the paintings that you do in your spare time when you have the time and energy. Like, tell me about your community. Tell me about the environment, and so I've started to slowly expand away from specific healthcare technologies and services and more towards like community based offerings, like land regenerative, connective based offerings. And that might sound a little vague, but like, yeah, I've just been exploring other ways to fill up My Cup as a person who provides services, because healthcare is hard. Healthcare is really hard to be in. Like, ask anyone, like, they'll tell you it's hard and it sucks, and so sometimes it's very discouraging to it just feels like such an uphill battle. And so to kind of fill up my own cup, I really try and like, find ways to have projects that also are like, Yeah, we may things may be hard, and like, we're working to build greater connections. We're working to build, you know, more artistic communities. Like, there's, there's more, there's more to life than I mean, for me, like, I am really into the idea of, like, salutogenesis, rather than pathogenesis. Like, pathogenesis is like the start of disease, and salutogenesis is like the start of life, or, like, you know, tell me about the parts of you that, like, feel really alive, you know,

Elle Billing:

I like that. Yeah, my brain was breaking those words down. I was like, I dig them. Yeah. I'm just like, and now my brain is like, you know, doing that thing, that thing it does where it gets a new word and a new concept, and it's like, oh, well, yeah, because health can coexist with our illnesses, like, we can have healthy parts of our lives, even while we're ill or in pain, yeah. Like, of course we can, yeah, I know that, yeah. I just haven't heard it articulated this way, okay?

Wolfe Erikson:

I think I need it, like, constantly articulate it to me. I think I need constant permission that I can, like, live the life that I want despite being a person with chronic illnesses. Like, yeah, when I was in grad school and really coming to terms with being disabled, I started a podcast because I was like, I need to, like, talk with other disabled artists. I need to, like, see how they're doing this, and, like, what accommodations they're making for themselves? And, yeah, I met people who are like, I have a bed bound studio, like, I make paintings in my bed. And I'm like, That's so rad. Like, that's so cool to me. You know, it's like, just hearing people make accommodations for themselves to, like, lead the lives that they want, is like, what I'm interested in, really, yeah,

Elle Billing:

like, I have different versions of how I do admin time. I can do it at the kitchen table, right, sitting in a regular chair, which is not comfortable, but like, I can do it and then that means I can keep an eye on my mom. I have the doing it in bed version, and then I have, like, a comfy couch version. So, like, I have sort of, like the, like, the three stages of, like, how do I have to do my computer work? How do I have to do my computer work today?

Wolfe Erikson:

Totally

Elle Billing:

you know, you mentioned, like, the bed bound studio. I just taught my dad about Henri Matisse and how his art practice shifted and changed as he became more disabled. Because my dad doesn't, like he loves hearing about art, but he's not really into art much, but he calls me his art guru.

Wolfe Erikson:

Cool.

Elle Billing:

Whenever we're doing trivia, he's like, Oh, I got one for you. I got one for you. And so he he asked me the art questions, and I was like, Oh, well, here's something about Matisse you didn't know. And I'll tell him about how, you know, Matisse worked from bed at the end of his career, and had to change his entire style. And dad's like, really? And I'm like, No, Dad, I made it up. Yes, adapted practice and yeah, use studio assistants and things like that. And then, yeah, yeah. Like, we still have to create, like, we have to find ways, yeah, to do that no matter what's going on here with our body.

Wolfe Erikson:

Totally, yeah, yeah. I agree.

Elle Billing:

So how does, how does your chronic illness, like, inform or influence the way that you approach your work? Like, I guess you said you went into--you probably already answered that--you went into this specifically because the health system was, like, all fuckery.

Wolfe Erikson:

Yeah, yeah. It was, like, the genesis of it, for sure. Like, after going through that experience, it really was like, I, you know, I'm heading in that direction, but kind of on a daily basis. Like, my work is really informed by trauma-informed methodologies for designing. And one mentor of mine, Rachael Dietkus, who's been such a trailblazer in that arena. She is so anti urgency, in a way that's like, very, I just like, feel my nervous system like, be able to, like, cool off. You know, when I'm, when I'm, when I give myself permission to be like, this is like, not a real emergency right now, like, and I think that design for whatever reason, and I'm sure that this like is across industries, there can be such a dysregulated culture, and that dysregulated culture often, like informs itself, or it's this, like, massive snowball where, like, it just sort of continues, and then there's no pause, there's no opportunity to say, Okay, I like, when does my body get to rest? You know? And so, yeah, chronic illnesses and disability has really informed, like, not only just, like, the subject matter of what I do, but also the process, like, I've needed to design at the speed of my body, you know, I've needed to I, you know, I heard you say, like, I have my admin stuff at the table, I have it at the couch and I have it in bed. Like, those are accommodations, you know, I have to be able to do my job in a very flexible way that meets the needs of my body.

Elle Billing:

Yeah. I was in a group chat where we were talking about, like, content creation, yeah, I never, I always, I don't really record myself painting. It's almost like you just have to remember to set up, like it's easy, like it's easy to make reels. You just have to set up your phone and record yourself while you paint. I'm like, my process is three months long,

Wolfe Erikson:

yeah, yeah, yeah.

Elle Billing:

Like, and a lot of it is, like, staring, yeah, at my work, right? And recording myself changes the way I paint. But like, I have a really protracted process. Because, for one it, my process is multi-- it has involves a lot of layers and a lot of waiting and a lot of percolating. But also, like, I just, I can only spend like, two hours at a time in the studio. I can't do these 10 hour painting marathons, like some people can. I can't do the really cool time lapse video where it's like, watch a painting come to life, because it's three months of footage. And I don't-- be no way for me to, like, with the ADHD and the memory problems and the migraines, like, there's no way for me to remember to set it up every time, and there's no way to get the same angle every time. Just it's not possible like that. I'm like, I can't compress three months of footage into a reel.

Wolfe Erikson:

No, totally, no, totally, yeah. I mean, we're in an interesting culture of, like, trying to, like, make ourselves digestible from, like, a content perspective. Like, how, not only do we have to do we, you know, create the work, but then we also have to think of ways to make that work digestible to a large audience. And it can be really exhausting,

Elle Billing:

yeah? Like, if I did do reels of my process, I would do joke reels of me, like laying on the floor,

Wolfe Erikson:

yeah, yeah, totally

Elle Billing:

Yeah, staring at my painting. Like,

Wolfe Erikson:

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Elle Billing:

because that's so much, so much of it is me just like, sitting on the floor of my studio, like, hmm, yeah. Or like, sitting on the floor painting and then realizing that I'm like, pretzel shaped, and having to stretch out and, like, lay on the floor to relax my back and go, I should have been doing that.

Wolfe Erikson:

Yeah, yeah,

Elle Billing:

those reels they wouldn't like. That's not what people want to see. That's not maybe, I mean, maybe, maybe I could be a disrupter.

Wolfe Erikson:

Totally, yeah. I mean, I think that, like, we're at a point of, like, really smelling bullshit. You know what? I mean? Like, Oh yeah, especially, especially, like, as AI, continues to inform the way that we consume content and all, all shapes of media, I think that we're just really craving. I don't know. I'll speak for myself, I'm really craving just, like, no fluff. Like, tell me. Like, tell me what it is. Like, tell me your experience, you know, like, I'm not trying to have this veneer over life right now. I just really want to. I'm just really craving connection. And so, yeah, I don't know I I'm wanting, like, slowness. I'm wanting intentionality, like, lately I've been thinking a lot about the idea of, like, what it means to be a fan. You know, like people are I feel like it's harder to be a fan of anything anymore, because the way that content is given to us is in this, like, fractured state. And so I will, like, my every once in a while, hear of, you know, an album coming out of a musician that I like, I'm like, Oh, I haven't listened to them in years. And I'm like, why is that? I used to, like, really be like, watch for musicians to release. I used to watch for artists to do stuff, and it's just a little bit more fractured, and I'm wanting, like, I'm really craving in this time in my life to have relationships with everything, like, whether that's like actual community and people in my life, or if that's like an artist that I really admire and respect, like, I want to, like, really build that relationship and have a slow pace of connection so that I can become more of a fan. You know?

Elle Billing:

Yeah, all the art on my walls is it's from artists that I follow or like, respect or have an actual relationship with, except two pieces with somebody I used to follow and they're not on Instagram anymore. Yeah, it was just, like, an experimental time in their life, and now they're done. And, like, I love the pieces, but I'm kind of bummed that, like, I can't even say, Oh, it was this artist, and they can go

Wolfe Erikson:

right. I'm like, right, okay, yeah, yeah,

Elle Billing:

but I'm with you on, like, the community thing and music artists. There's like, two that I regularly, like check up on that aren't like people that I know personally.

Wolfe Erikson:

Yeah. Right.

Elle Billing:

As far as albums coming out, Florence and the Machine has a new one coming out tomorrow, and I've been like, they announced it, yeah, but, like, it was announced very quickly. It's like, oh, by the way, here's a new song, and there's a new album coming out, and there's an album. Just so, you know,

Wolfe Erikson:

yeah, yeah, totally.

Elle Billing:

And then I read the article, her interview, and I was like, That album's just gonna rip me open, yeah? Like I've been ment--, like I've been mentally and emotionally preparing for a month for this album to come out, yeah? So I'm gonna shift gears a little bit. You recently started working in, like, on in somatics. So that's, yeah, I am interested in hearing about that. I had somebody else in another season who was doing work in somatics, but we didn't get a chance to, like, dig deep into it. Yeah, I'm, I would love to hear like, what is it and how, like, you're training in it right now, and how, how it changes, how you live with your illness? Yeah. I mean, it's two really big questions. So like, yeah, dive in.

Wolfe Erikson:

Yeah, yeah. That's a bit, it's a big question. So I'll just, like, take a bite out of it. Where it, wherever, yeah, however, yeah. Like, what is it? First of all, for listeners who don't know, okay, yeah, let's start there. So somatics is body based approaches. So the soma is a Greek word that basically tries to encapsulate, like, your whole being. So it's your personality, it's your physical sensations, it's your personal experiences. And I encourage you to look up definitions of the soma because it's might be a little bit easier to ingest that, but somatics is a way at taking a look at the like inherent wisdom of the body, and taking a break from the Cartesian model of like, I think, therefore I am. You know, all of our wisdom happens the neck up, right? Somatics is really like there's information that happens all throughout our system, right? So I am training to be a somatic coach, so that's a little bit different from somatic therapy. Okay? Where somatic therapy, you may use somatic so you may like track sensation in your body to help process and make sense of experiences that you may have had in the past, and to understand how some of those sensations are coming to life for you in the present moment. For instance, one way that somatic, we can be somatically shaped, a common phrase in somatics is someone's shape. If we had an upbringing where our survival mechanism required us to make ourselves as small as possible, as invisible as possible, right? We may experience that somatically today, even though we may not be in an environment that's requiring that of us anymore, right? And so somatically, we can explore through different practices, different postures, different ways of being that has a way of telling us investigating that closed off sensation, you know, and with safety building capacity to like, okay, maybe I can what would it feel like to be a little bit more open, you know, to physically open my body. And the difference between somatic therapy and somatic coaching, somatic coaching can be therapeutic, but it is not a therapy. Like I am not a therapist. I'm not here to really diagnose or treat disorders, but what I'm really trying to do is help understand where you hope to go, like, what are you, what do you long for? What matters to you, you know, and then talk about ways that you've been shaped. And one thing that I really love and admire about somatics is it's a very interrelated discipline where it talks about, you know, our shaping is not just from within ourselves. We are shaped by our family systems. We are shaped by racial dynamics. We are shaped by ability. We are shaped by culture. We are shaped by language. And so taking into context all of these things, all of these things, have put you into this present moment of this is your current shape. You know, for better or for worse, like the wisdom of the body has kept you safe, right the ways and of you, you know, we call them condition tendencies, and they could be thought of as like, you know, perhaps, like, fight, flight, freeze, you know, those, those like tendencies to be. In various stress responses. As a coach, they those responses may be in service of what you long for, or they may not. And so we try to name something that we work together. Here's a goal for us, and that goal could be, I want to, I want more love in my relationship. I want more ease at work. I want to restore my relationship to my, to my hobbies and to what I care about. And then we take a look at some of those condition tendencies and use some practices to try and investigate, like, what are blocks from for you to get to the where you want to go? So, yeah, how does that land?

Elle Billing:

The example you gave about, like, feeling small, yeah, or needing to be small and invisible. I like that example because I was in counseling. I've been in counseling and therapy for quite a while, but I was in a session recently where my therapist said, how does that make you feel? And I was like, sad, yeah, in your body. I was like, oh, yeah, really small, like a little kid, yeah? Well, he had me do. He told me, man spread. I want you to man spread on the couch.

Wolfe Erikson:

Yeah?

Elle Billing:

I was like, yeah, what? Take up as much space as you want on the couch? So I did. I like, just Yeah, spread and and it was like, it sounded silly, but like it helped break out of that

Wolfe Erikson:

totally yes

Elle Billing:

shape. Yeah, it was that I felt stuck in, because I didn't feel small when I got into therapy. But when I was like explaining the situation that I had been in, I still like reliving it and rehashing it brought me back into that little, tiny place, and I had to do something to like,

Wolfe Erikson:

yeah

Elle Billing:

bust out of it and tell myself I didn't have to be that way

Wolfe Erikson:

totally.

Elle Billing:

And man spreading is funny. If you're not a cishet white man doing it,

Wolfe Erikson:

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Elle Billing:

And my therapist is also not heterosexual, and so him telling me, I want you to man spread, was really funny,

Wolfe Erikson:

yeah,

Elle Billing:

between the two of us as two queer individuals sitting in therapy session and like, Okay, I'm gonna be as like, yeah, space, yeah. And it worked, because humor works with me too. But, like, it was very embodied. And I get stuck in my head a lot

Wolfe Erikson:

me too,

Elle Billing:

getting my body involved definitely helped. I don't know if that's a good illustration, but it definitely

Wolfe Erikson:

totally it is. Yeah, no, 1,000% like, that's really what somatics is a safe space to try something on, to try a different way of being, you know, to try embodying a different way of being. You know, it has afforded me very, very similar experiences and like help me to re reconnect with like, the wisdom of my body where, or like, reconnect with the trust of my body where, prior to studying and learning about somatics, I would be really afraid of my body. I would feel a lot of scary sensations and be like, ah, like, That's so scary. Like, that's, you know, that's, is that a new symptom? Is that a new symptom? Am I in trouble? Am I getting worse, you know? And so, like, my brain would really like go into this narrative, and I would just be pulled up into my head, worrying, worrying, worrying, worrying, worrying, and not able to like, be in action around like, be able to like, okay, let's support me in this moment. Like I would just be so wraught with these thoughts that it was hard for me to actually take care of myself. And somatics has really helped me to be a bit more grounded and like, Okay. Today is just like a high symptom day, you know? And like that, does it? I can advocate for myself. I can be that, like, be the version of myself that I need to be now, you know?

Elle Billing:

Yeah, I wasn't thinking of it as somatics, but like, I have, I now have, like, better scripts for, like, if I have this symptom, okay, maybe I need electrolytes. Maybe I need to eat something. Maybe I need like-- these are three approaches I can take instead of just sitting and like, worrying about it. Like, these are three things I can try to get my body back on track and see how I feel. Like, wait for the response, and then make another decision. Like, it moves me forward, instead of getting me stuck

Wolfe Erikson:

totally,

Elle Billing:

and it's taken till, till I'm 40, to figure out, like, how to work with my body.

Wolfe Erikson:

It's a lifelong process.

Elle Billing:

Instead of thinking that my body is my enemy, like, how much that's,

Wolfe Erikson:

that's, that's so my growth area right now, like, how can I move through life, thinking and feeling and knowing that my body is my best friend got me this far. How would life be different? Yeah, like, how would life be different if I saw my body as someone on my team, rather than someone fighting against me? You know?

Elle Billing:

Yeah, I think that's like, really important for like, folks like you and me, and probably a lot of listeners too is like, yeah, we you were talking about pathogenesis and salutogenesis too. Is like, we go into the doctor with symptoms, and they're running labs because they're telling us what's wrong. And so we're so used to, like, reporting on the stuff that's bad and, like, broken, but like, we need to remember too, that, like, we've made it this far. Like, not to discount the fact that, yes, some things need attention, because,

Wolfe Erikson:

yeah, it's a super fine balance, right?

Elle Billing:

It's not all unicorns and rainbows, but, like, right? Our body is getting us where we're going. And, yeah, it's important.

Wolfe Erikson:

Totally talk about it like it's comp, it's complex. Let it be complex. Totally.

Elle Billing:

Let it be complex. Let it be complex.

Wolfe Erikson:

And, like, there's so many people online saying, you know, I hold the keys to recovery for you, like, I hold the keys to a healthy body for you. And just follow my program, right? Just do X, Y and Z, and you'll be able to, like, feel this, and it's not so cut and dry, like I needed acknowledgement. Like, yeah, I am never going to be one to claim that, like, somatics is going to, like, cure chronic disease. It's totally altered my relationship to my body, though, for the better, and so that's been massive.

Elle Billing:

No, I get what you're saying. Yeah, my attitude changes daily. But like, the way that I think about and, like, manage myself definitely makes each day a different kind of day to get through. You know, if I'm my own ally, or if I'm not,

Wolfe Erikson:

yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Elle Billing:

So I have one more question.

Wolfe Erikson:

Yeah.

Elle Billing:

I mean, maybe you already answered it, because you said some pretty profound things earlier, but maybe you have a different answer. So what is one true thing that you have learned from your work in design or in somatics? I'll throw out somatics. I know too one true thing that you've learned,

Wolfe Erikson:

one true thing that's such a hard question.

Elle Billing:

It can be something really, it can be as basic or as complex, or it can be just a true thing about yourself or a true thing about life. Try to, I try to keep it as open ended as possible.

Wolfe Erikson:

Yeah, I think that. I don't know if this is really an answer, but it's what's coming up for me. So okay, it's that kind of like aha moment of whether it's like design or art or somatics, it's this like moment of opening right where, like, say, for instance, it's a design project. And I've been faced with this problem, and I'm trying to understand this problem, and it's a moment of like, well, what if we tried it a different way, you know? And like, all of a sudden I'm excited, and all of a sudden I'm like, I'm up and trying things on. And it's this moment of, like, discovery and uncovering something new and a different way of approaching something. And it's very similar in an artistic practice where, you know, I heard you say, like, when, when you paint, you stare at a canvas for sometimes months, and then every once in a while, it's like, wait a second, something new. And then in somatics, we have that as well, you know, where all of a sudden I can, sort of like, wriggle into my body and feel something that I'm like, Whoa. I didn't know that that was there. I didn't know that that was in me. And so I think that, like, there's not, like, a single, you know, tangible lesson from all of those things, but it's just this like act of discovery that I find so intoxicating that I will, like continue to do the rest of my life.

Elle Billing:

Yeah, that openness to discovery. Thank you.

Wolfe Erikson:

Yeah, yeah.

Elle Billing:

Thanks for being here. social media. Where can people find you? Yeah, want people to find you.

Wolfe Erikson:

They're they're welcome to find me. So Wolfe Erickson Design is platforms that you can find on Tiktok and Instagram. We Design Health is-- I'll be launching my my consulting website in the next couple of months, and I'm also We Design Health on Tiktok, feel free to--

Elle Billing:

great

Wolfe Erikson:

more than, more than enough encouragement to like, reach out. You know, get in touch if design, somatics, trauma. Some of these things that we talked about today are of interest to any of your listeners like, please feel free to connect.

Elle Billing:

Great. I will put all those things in the show notes. Thank you, cool.

Wolfe Erikson:

Yeah. Thank you Elle. I appreciate it.

Elle Billing:

Thank you for joining us on this episode of Hoorf. to get the complete show notes and all the links mentioned on today's episode, or to get a full transcript of the episode, visit HoorfPodcast.com Join the Blessed Herd of St Winkus. By signing up for our newsletter, you can get Hoorf episodes delivered directly to your inbox. What's more, you get invitations to our monthly Coffee and Biscuits Chat, where you get to hang out with Ricki and Elle, talk about the show, and connect on the topics that mean the most to you. You can sign up for that at HoorfPodcast.com if you become a patron for only $3 a month, you can support the creation of this podcast, help pay my editor and join a community of caregivers out here, just doing our best. Thank you again for joining me, Elle Billing, the chronically ill queer femme who is very tired, on this episode of Hoorf. Until next time, be excellent to each other. Hoorf is hosted by Elle Billing @elleandwink, audio editing by Ricki Cummings@rickiep00h music composed by Ricki Cummings. Hoorf is a production of Elle & Wink Art Studio LLC, all rights reserved. Hoorf can be found on all social media platforms. @hoorfpodcast, at H, O, O, R, F podcast. But then I can't regurgitate any of the correct terms when I need them,

Wolfe Erikson:

honestly same

Contributor

Ricki Cummings

Producer