Attorney Regina Campbell, Principal Attorney of the Campbell Law Group, has a wonderful talk with Former Judge, Sarah Zabel from her days at the State Attorney’s office to her time as the Judge that historically ended the ban on gay marriage in 2014. Join us as Judge Zabel, now the owner MAZE Resolutions, lets you into her world!
Lawyers for Children https://www.lawyersforchildren.org/
MAZE Resolutions https://mazeresolutions.com/
Women of Tomorrow https://womenoftomorrow.org/
Big Brother, Big Sisters https://www.bbbs.org/
Attorney Regina Campbell, Principal Attorney of the Campbell Law Group, has a wonderful talk with Former Judge, Sarah Zabel from her days at the State Attorney’s office to her time as the Judge that historically ended the ban on gay marriage in 2014. Join us as Judge Zabel, now the owner MAZE Resolutions, lets you into her world!
Lawyers for Children https://www.lawyersforchildren.org/
MAZE Resolutions https://mazeresolutions.com/
Women of Tomorrow https://womenoftomorrow.org/
Big Brother, Big Sisters https://www.bbbs.org/
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[Music]
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hi I’m Regina Campbell uh we're back with you the Campbell corner and I have the uh you know hopefully you've enjoyed
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her prior podcast today I have the pleasure of uh introducing you for her retired judge uh Sarah Zabel
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our episode six of season one thank you I hope uh welcome oh thank you I really
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appreciate you having me here today now thank you for coming I know you're very busy and it's um you know so I’m very
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thankful for you to come and talk to us today a little bit about you and about what you've done um you have an amazing history I was my
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understanding you started off as an assistant state attorney I did you know I always call it a journey
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so just uh my reader's digest version originally I
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wanted to be an entertainment lawyer because I had a theater background and
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long story short I ended up working for the state attorney's office and
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I’m loving public service and that's when I did the 180 as far as what I
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wanted to do in life yes you definitely love public service you went on to be a judge
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correct yeah so I talked a little bit about being a judge just sure sure yeah um and that
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was certainly working at the state attorney's office public service that certainly was as good as a springboard
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for me so uh going on to the bench in 2003
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so you know just uh or can't believe it's 2022.
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you blink your eyes and that's how quick life goes but um yeah just so much
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so much experience and so many things that I saw people in the court system
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and you know and how the court system impacts everyone so
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I was uh I started out in dependency with the foster care system which was
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very difficult um I think for me respectfully to the
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people that work for the system and this is not an indictment on the system
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itself but because there are people who work very hard and get you know so but um but
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really for me you know the fight that shouldn't have been fought especially
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for elder children in foster care because the younger ones are always the
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babies they're the ones who find families you know the forever family the permanent homes and the older children
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unfortunately who end up you know sometimes graduating you know not that support
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that I have with my family right it's the reality is it's almost like a puppy syndrome
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you know a young puppy you know something unfortunate sometimes younger children like you're saying more likely to be adopted or
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to be found home and one of the teenage children which is a very difficult time in a
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child's life they can't find home they can't find the support they need educational
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stability is not the same right it's a different um structure although I’m sure everyone
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attends very well by it you know but and yeah here in southwest I don't know if you've ever heard of the covenant
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house the word actually supports a lot of teenage runaways that might be living on the street because it's too dangerous
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yes I have I have um and there's a lot of community
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resources and partnerships that do help these young people especially when maybe
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they run away from their foster home you know and unfortunately there's the human trafficking side
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where children are taking advantage of but there's another organization that um I mean you have also guardian items or
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boys for children but you also have lawyers for children who are um who take
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a case on prolono who are actually the lawyers for these older children that go
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in and advocate for their needs before they age out of foster care which is
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just so important it's so important to have that and thank you to all the attorneys that do that pro bono work because it's just
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a measurable amount of benefit to the children into the community oh absolutely a hundred percent um and then
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from dependency I went to criminal and that was for me
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again I you know I touch on the young people and when children um in
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and this is you know whether or not it's ever changed but when uh children
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in who are charged with a crime they're direct filed to
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criminal court at the network and the judges really don't have any discretion and
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hopefully one day that will change uh and so children
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who are juveniles who are direct filed who maybe should stay in juvenile court
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I’m not talking about violent crime not having all that but certain things that were maybe they could get the
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services they need so that they can have a life yeah so where I could when I was a criminal were
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you know the children the younger people the juveniles who were direct file where I could help them and see
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whether or not they could be you know I I do believe in rehabilitation I do um it's been you know you have this 15 year
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old who you know they go to they go to prison two year for two years
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they come out their monsters right yes potentially because of this
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so I don't want to I don't think away from victims or anything but you know if you can
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make them valuable and for the community and they think you can do too I think that's
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that's important yes and I’m sorry baby monster was too strong of a word I just mean they become something that they're not they're generally what they've been
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educated and reared in a prison an adult prison I mean they say children are not fully
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developed their brain until they're 26 you know the uh they're from their brain frontal you know lobes so imagine this is what
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they're saying so I do agree there has to be some balance there right to help these children maybe rehabilitate themselves yeah and come on
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yeah yeah and I think we as a community
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are responsible um you know whether through education or through resources
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um to help these young people when they do they do have to go to prison about
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their 1819 or maybe there's other alternatives alternative methods to help them to
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ensure that there is not they don't repeat crimes there's not the recidivism rate that they do they are able to go in
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the community and be productive to the community not only for their own life so they can afford it
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for everybody and it's a win-win yeah and so that's a little bit when they talk about prison reform correct there
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might be different levels of helping people to get out including children of course when they're very young maybe because that sounds like it's difficult
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for them to get back on their feet to get jobs to be accepted back in the society which kind of creates sort of
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that cycle right so that makes them potentially 100 yeah committed crime again and yeah
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we go yeah it's 100 I mean there's no guarantee nobody has that crystal ball um
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but uh certainly um I think uh you know if you give them a chance uh working together I think it
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helps everybody and then from the criminal I went to civil I was I was a civil child
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judge for many years a variety of cases from
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the tobacco cases to commercial contracts complex commercial
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personal injury real estate uh um non-competes just the yeah and it was a
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hybrid which I which I enjoyed too because it was intellectually engaging too for me um because it was a hybrid
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you had jury trials and uh non-jury trials so that also was interesting yeah
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it's got to be you're kind of sitting in the seat of watching everything so you learn a lot of different perspectives of the law different ideas it just it's
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going to be really interesting yeah yeah I know really interesting um and the lawyers
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that come into IU that come into the civil courtroom are
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are very good lawyers and for me it's all about respectfully
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it's all about civility and some litigation should not be an oxymoron but uh you know professionalism is a key
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and uh and I think that goes towards mentorship mentoring and mentorship and then my last four years almost four
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years I was a family court judge and certainly that's you know I think I breathe on
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that one because for me children in uh you know just like I mentioned dependency children
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in the family court system um just you know the toxicity and what happens to them
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emotional impact I mean look there's an impact on anybody in the court system whether it's a civil case probate but
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family especially children sometimes you know when they're pulled in the scars and the wounds sometimes will
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never heal unfortunately and it's true it is very true and it's um
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it's difficult because if you look they don't have a voice it's like they can get up and leave they can't get up and divorce somebody they can't you know
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they have they you know and some extent it's their parents right we understand that you know their parents are their
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parents as a feminist lawyer I’m always also trying to encourage parents
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it doesn't matter so tell us bad about you know you don't say this don't say that in front
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of the children um don't engage this you know what I mean well he's so hard when he does this
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or she's so horrible when she does that look who's looking they don't understand the difference they love
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oh my goodness it's so true and I tell parents all the time especially parents who are going through
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a divorce I mean it's sad that the marriage is ending but even though you're divorcing as a
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couple you'll always be married as parents absolutely always and the best
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parenting plan is a plan the written parenting plan it's good to go to have a plan to defer
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to the best parenting plan is the plan that you stick in the drawer and you never follow yes you guys are just
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closed parents right together and figure it out yeah nuclear family you know the
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village and the you know children giving them love no perfect tip eric no perfect child it's just giving them that uh you
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know empowerment and encouragement to succeed in life yeah I agree I agree
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[Music] absolutely that's amazing what can
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happen with your kindness it disarms so many things situations you know it's hard things are heated but yeah I mean
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and Thomas James um the writer said there's uh
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the three most important lessons on paraphrasing uh what he wrote three most important lessons in life is the first
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is to be kind the second is to be kind and the third is
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true I think it helps a lot you know I like that and it's my understanding that you also have a historic judgment
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that you made on lifting bans same-sex marriages yes wow
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that's amazing okay that must have been uh you must have
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been I say judge I can only imagine cause I go in front of so many judges and I talk to them sometimes I can't imagine what's
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going through their mind where they have to look at something and they're looking at the law and they're looking at facts and equity and kind of
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go okay this is what it is you know so that's groundbreaking so yeah uh it's and you know I am probably
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uh using this word ad nauseum in its journey but it's
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in in court in the court system when the case comes in it's the blind filing
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system so I think that's true with federal court state court that a case comes in
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and whether it's a high media case or just you know case
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that it goes randomly to a judge and it's interesting some lawyers get
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the same judge and they're like how does that happen there's no rhyme or reason so
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so when the case was it wasn't it was um in the newspaper and
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all over the place that this case was filed and I remember
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a lot of people don't know the story but I don't mind sharing it I was walking up the courthouse steps at 73
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west byway which is the courthouse in downtown Miami the historical
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courthouse and uh so I was walking out the courthouse steps and uh the judge I’m
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not going to mention his name looked at me he said you have the case I said and like
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I started looking behind me to see if he's talking to somebody else in my case what case
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you're looking at me um and uh and I’m like okay
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so I saw him and he said you know no one cares and so I went to my wonderful jay
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donna who was just a sister of my soul my um and she said you have the case and I
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said okay so um and my and I started well like you
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know what it's true um with any case that a judge receives it doesn't you
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know it's a case like this it's a high media high profile game but any case you know you
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have to you you're informed and you're going to follow the law and facts and everything
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that's given to you but the first case that I thought of obviously it was a process before I made
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my decision um was loving versus Virginia okay which
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was uh the case years ago with a interracial marriage and then it was a crime and then the
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supreme court struck a shift and uh and all the cases that went along with it but certainly
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that was the first case I thought not that I was making that my decision was there but I did think about the case of
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equal protection due process and everything that uh was inextricably intertwined to my decision making but it
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was it was uh I had my judicial system
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I’m not being hyperbolic here but she was literally getting over 100 calls a day
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and a lot of people look you can agree to disagree and people have very strong opinions yeah um and that's okay you
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know we're human beings and we have opinions and it's okay to you know respect each other
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and we should but um people were very felt very strongly yeah and uh so I was getting a
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lot of you know people were protesting in front of the courthouse and all of this I hadn't even made a decision yet
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and um and even and I don't know not a lot of people know this um I was up for re-election some people in
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the back realm uh said that maybe you should just let the case go to another judge I mean this is you know yes
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uh behind the scenes stuff yeah but you know what ultimately I
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decided you know I didn't want to that's not who I was yeah and if I couldn't make
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a decision like that then I shouldn't be on the bench right I mean although years a few years later I did retire but not
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for already not for being pushed or you know or um
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forced into it I made you know and I and I said no I’m going to keep the case
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and we're going to make this decision so that's amazing because a lot of judges it becomes difficult you'll
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probably see that in this climate nowadays even with political issues or other things so that was a hot topic
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then and it was you know so hot
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there's a lot of legal issues that are evolving as a result of it yes I’m seeing some of that
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a little bit about to the pronouns also some of the gender fluidity going on and so forth from contracts and in
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family absolutely everywhere yeah you know you know people are just okay should I say this so it's something it's a new
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area of law for all of us to understand and how many and who goes on the birth certificate you know if there's a
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circuit you know so I think that I think we're evolving and we'll see what happens but
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I’m lifting the bands away that was uh it was um honestly it was just
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it was a no-brainer for me
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oh my gosh the courtroom was packed full of people I didn't even expect it I thought you know I
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just come back from vacation and they said I’m like you know
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um asking you about lifting the band and like at judge tinkle on the thorough bench
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and his decision and uh he was going to do it I think on Tuesday then came back on Monday and they said well why are you
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you know they're asking if you can live and I thought it was you know that was just ministerial was the big deal and
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then I walk in the courtroom and there's
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[Music]
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I I mean a lot of my decisions when I was on the bench I did pause and reflect
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because I want to be fair to both sides before I made that important decision but lifting the van I just you know I
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just knew instinctively that yeah just yes yes and then all of a sudden you know it's
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like it's just it was a moment in time that I always remember I would think yes I would say so I feel very historic
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okay all right so um so now you've been retired and you're doing arbitrations
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mediations is that correct yes wonderful wonderful what an asset by the way to families and businesses out there
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getting any assistance with arbitration or family matters and mediation judge Abel
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thank you that's a lovely endorsement yes yes absolutely um so your name of your
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company is maze resolution talk a little bit about the name absolutely so
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when I decided to retire that was the right time for me I had um
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like anything you know you want to make sure before you make that decision like leaving any position
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I did a lot of background uh research and uh and I spoke to several
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retired judges talking to them and some of them said oh your name should be Sarah’s able resolutions or stable
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resolutions because people know you and I thought I was again you know using
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the word reflective I really didn't I wasn't thinking I didn't want to contain myself
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to just day county I really I had synchro swim because I and that's why I didn't go to another
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firm or practice I really felt sink or swim I had this vision to have a
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statewide full service dispute resolution practice and I wanted it more than my name because my goal was
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to bring in more neutrals and and to have an all-female dispute resolution okay very interesting
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bringing in retired female judges I have one now Murray, some Pedro de glacier
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dispute resolution practice statewide and so I decided not to
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disable resolutions I wanted it more than that and so I’m a big acronym
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person okay so i'm thinking you know uh and so I started playing around with
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words and I and I said well you know people in the court system go through the maze right litigation okay so
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come me um and uh so uh and that's what um i
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so I started playing with the word maze m-a-c-e so what does may stand for M
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stands for mediation okay should I mediate all types of cases commercial personal injury mid-amount
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family workers comp employment so everything uh
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anything to help people stay out of the court system but uh and a search for A stands for arbitration because I do
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arbitrate um and uh Z stands for zabel
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and um E I thought about what's what
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[Music]
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so the light went on um and so and that's my objective is to
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navigate people or companies or individuals certainly families through the maze of
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the court system or I do pursue two through the court system and get them out of the maze so that they have
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closure peace of mind and are able to move on I love it the amaze
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is
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[Music]
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actually face was easier to come up with and what do I do to eat
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so I also wanted to ask you a little bit about we talked about I think you have the women of tomorrow
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you're part of that organization yes can you tell us a little bit about that yeah very near and dear to me and um
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a big part of who I am is uh certainly mentorship and I think
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paying it forward and um and helping young people and I think look
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bottom line is we all need mentors and at any age and you know and having people around us so
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women of tomorrow I got involved [Music]
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I’ve been a big sister and actually my little is now 25 she's a nurse I’m so proud of her I had to throw that in
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there so but um the women of tomorrow
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I’ve been involved with over 12 years now and it's an organization
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that mentors at risk high school girls and this organization is
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uh let me just say that I really have to give credit where
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credit is due is Jennifer Valaby she was a news anchor many years ago
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here in South Florida very successful news anchor and she wanted to give back
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to the community especially young women and help them succeed give
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them the opportunity to by by having business women in the community um
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mentor and there's a there's a scholarship component but it's really about mentoring and i've um
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and my girls now are in the you know working world and you know again it's
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pay it forward and I just I love I love mentoring I love knowing that I’m
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helping somebody because by you know helping somebody and help I’m just as rewarded I hope that my
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girls are and I just quick story one of my one of my uh young ladies um
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went to UF undergrad and now she and she grant and she just graduated
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Harvard Law wow and these young women have uh you know they certainly
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have uh difficult times and uh coming from fractured families
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and uh some of them are older siblings and there's one parent and they have to come home straight from school take care
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of their younger siblings they don't really have much but um and that's right yeah of course
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and so having this organization and the business women who from whether
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they're bankers or newscasters or lawyers um or doctors or
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accounts they what we do is we're assigned to school and uh every month
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it's not a big time commitment but that's not um that's really not for me
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it's a non-issue it's we meet with the girls once a month and uh we bring in guest speakers I would love for you to
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Come speak to my girls and we have workshops and they help and giving these girls the
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opportunity to have a future and know that you know through our own experiences
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they can see it's possible yeah you can see because you know we all come from various different backgrounds so even
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when you're successful you know it's not like you come from the perfect family with all the money in the world there's a lot of people that are very successful
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that came from similar backgrounds that they have yeah they can see it's possible you can see what this looks like
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and my young lady who is now a working lawyer and I’m just working for a big law firm in New York um going back to
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the decision the gay marriage decision she texted me I think she was at UF at the time she texted me and
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she's Jen Stable as she was in college says john staple you were just on the john stewart show because he showed a
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video of it [Laughter]
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she was so proud of me as i'm proud of her yeah absolutely and you're probably like
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i'm like do I want to see that [Laughter]
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That’s funny because when you walk out of the courtroom you’re like hello everybody so but the organization really is uh for
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me and there's many wonderful organizations like big brothers big sisters a lot of wonderful mentoring
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organizations but women of tomorrow and um I i would
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invite any professional woman who wants to get involved it's not all in South Florida there's other states too and
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general roadblocking deserves all the credit and her passion for making a difference for these young
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women and like my one of my former mentees is now a lawyer making a difference in the community so I would
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invite and encourage to uh if you're interested in joining women tomorrow they are looking for mentors so I would
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invite anyone interested to please either to go on the website and find out more
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information like that great we'll also post the link to the website so that you know from this video if someone can't get to it so
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i'll be more than happy any time to go go to any school or anything else
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I wanted to also ask you
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One of the questions I ask everybody you know I success you know someone successful like you
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we always want to know who most influenced you so
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thinking about that question and person persons and
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it's really uh so many people in my life so I’m just going to give a quick laundry list I won't go
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into depth about it but um just a quick laundry list of people
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uh of course my parents unfortunately were no longer here my mother and father were just so
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encouraging and uh believed in me and my father who just
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my dad was a fundraiser he whether he raised a dollar or brought in the money a dollar or a million dollars he treated
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everybody in the same respect so I take my cue from him he's just such a good decent person and my mom too and
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so and who else Dr. Paul Milton Miami-Dade college she was just incredible for me she's also gone now
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and got directly from FSU and the communications department just all these
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incredible mentors and role models and on the on the legal end I do want to just um Irving Gonzalez who was a legal
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legend in our community unfortunately he's gone up but he was wonderful and I also Edith Osman who's a
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past president of the Florida bar who had the courage and
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I was very involved with fall Miami-Dade vlog past present but I and but I have to Edith Osman um
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when she became president she committed to putting women um on uh committees board of our committees
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and she stood by her commitment and she because I kept trying to get on a committee yeah and she put me on the
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family law rules committee and so I really will always be grateful to her and of course my beautiful children
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Jeremy desk and Jennifer I’m so proud of them and who they are as people and that they're good kind people because the
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measure of success is not great it's not money either not money but um but I
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have to say um uh not last but not least because everybody a rosemary barquette certainly
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justice Periente and all those incredible uh judicial role models for
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me but my husband my husband was in a catastrophic
30:45
accident years ago and actually I was four months pregnant with my youngest and
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he unfortunately is a paraplegic but my husband is just an incredible role model and he's so
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he believed in me as soon as he came out of the hospital uh he said told me he said I don't want
31:05
you to wait I I want you to run now and so he was out there championing
31:11
championing me cheerleading and I couldn't do what I do without him
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and believing in me and he is the epitome of adversity we all have adversity
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but lemons lemonades he gives up and he's such an incredible role model for my children who okay we all have stuff
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in life right everybody's going through the stone and everybody's got stuff but he gets up every morning early in the
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morning doesn't complain he's going through so many things but even when I decided to leave the bed she
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said you know I know you can do it you're going to be great I believe in you and he's just always been that
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incredible cheerleader no matter what life has dealt him he's such a good decent man and he's an incredible role
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model for my children so I think if I put any
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you know he just has just been an incredible partner to me that's beautiful very very uh
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very unique to here too that's a beautiful story you know beautiful family beautiful everything
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and listening to who you choose it's clear why you choose to pay it forward to help advance other women and help
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mentor other people and children and so forth because you were also helped a lot and the people sounds like they helped
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you open the doors that were often closed to women absolutely you know I tell and I have two boys two girls and I
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and you know whether I always say that if somebody tells you no go to the next
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person that tells you yes that um nobody uh just know your value
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and just uh insist on it and this is that's an insist on that
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insists and that's I mean not to take away at all that's what you do you insist on your value
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maintain it but that tactic also works with a t when you call they say something you say
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that's true that's true you know I think there's two words
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insist and persist [Music]
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tell you how many times so he was like Regina someone told me yes and then they told me no
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and then five more people said yes and no and I’m like okay just keep going that's right that's right and if you
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don't get the answer you want then you
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I tell young people my own children I said look you know I hope that you come to me and I’m you know and I and there's
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a village around you where you're especially law students who feel very isolated especially with covet and I
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just I I try to express them please come to us you know whether you know that
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we're here for you you're not alone and anybody that closes the door and you
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shame on them and we really want to help you and because by helping you we're
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also rewarded in itself and I mean I always say that speaks more of the other person than you as a
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person but what they do to you and how they react to you so if they react negatively or they close that door or
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they're selfish in other ways it doesn't take a lot sometimes it's just here uh here's the form
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and you're helping someone rather than being nasty I mean that's not true we help each other you know I can't say
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many times that someone has said to me your smile made my day yeah I don't know we just caught eyes hello yeah and
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because you're happy sometimes how many times do people get just this
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all day long yeah and someone smiles I don't know we're all sitting in line and we're sitting on the cars next to each
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other with stress from traffic and we all love each other like you know and I just think just brighten
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someone's even something like that I so agree with you and empathy and treating everybody with respect and
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you know and just uh being able to even like in the court system coming back to the court system you know when people
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come into the court system you know you don't know what somebody else is going through just you know again
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and you can have somebody on the other side talk about lawyers but just you
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know again that comes back to being kind being professional being civil and helping somebody else
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especially a young lawyer is just starting out yes you know and I tell a little young lawyers too when they come
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in you know sometimes
35:52
[Music] a more seasoned lawyer and then says uh you know how long have you been
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practicing and I tell and I tell these lawyers I said you know what your answer should be long enough thank you yes yes yes
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exactly I’ve had a couple of times where I’m stumbling you're so nervous first cutting the first couple years in the
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courtroom and I had another lawyer just uh ministering
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and I was like we're just another lady is that the
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dirtiest luck and I will never forget it
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that I’ve had been able a couple of times to help that attorney with minor stuff because there were more seasons than me and more knowledgeable you know
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but I’ll be like hey I heard this case you got this and say yeah okay so I’ve had lawyers to me
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you know or you ask that person or you do something you don't know they don't teach you to go to jail and
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hi I’m here for a hearing or I’ll teach you some of these things and uh
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you know I forgot something it's true it's true
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[Music] by the way
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yes so many times I’ve had judges smile [Music]
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[Laughter]
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of course and that's what we should be as a society but that's a bigger that's a bigger conversation
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[Laughter] so I mean I want to thank you for being here this has been wonderful great to
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see you because I haven't actually been able to see you I’ve been uh my daughter has been everyone called the house has been sick
37:36
with one thing or another I’m well past that but it was a rough Christmas so I have not been able to go out more lately
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and i'd be able to see you you know yeah yeah it's so nice to see you in person and thank you for inviting me in you
37:47
know the virtual world and being in person and you know seeing people it's so nice
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but I just a quick just uh fortunately the mediation world um and I think it will continue to be a
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hybrid through doing mediations through zoom and we have been very successful
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fortunately getting things settled and I think it will continue doing the hybrid in prison and through zoom and you can
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mediate anywhere immediately in Boston the case and I was able to settle the case but because of the court system
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they're respectful to the judges and uh you know unfortunately Covid really uh really put people um
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you know the backlog and in the queue and for their cases to be heard but unfortunately we had to otherwise
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everybody would be stuck in limbo okay and uh so really zoom has been a really
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a wonderful platform to be able to remove cases settle cases resolve and so
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but I’m happy and just uh as a good segway to say I’m so happy to see you in person and um
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you're just just to really think very highly of you and just as a lawyer and as a person I just
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do want to say thank you thank you for inviting me yes absolutely and one last thing I do want to say mediation I’m a
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I’m a big proponent of mediation and my office manager knows this because he always says Regina you settle everything
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I said well you know no I really most of the time most things
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can be resolved through remediation and I think because it is a little bit easier with zoom too
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it you know some people think it has to be this big enveloped thing sometimes you can just I just had a client uh say
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Regina I have this gotten one pretty well for 15 years they have this issue now it comes up I said why don't you try
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mediating it before you litigate because you've been able to get along you guys hit a little bit of a snag
39:37
um it doesn't have to be you know sometimes it's a co-parenting tool as well if you cannot come to an agreement
39:42
with a co-character therapist and it might be something you may want to try to because when you mediate the discussion comes out some of the stuff
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that you're afraid to say or that you're holding back it just says some type of evolution right to allow people to come
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to see what's really going on yeah and what I yeah I know 100 what I say is that um you know what mediation
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control the control while you take control away from the court system the decision and especially I think what zoom
40:10
does and it's looking you know we're still evolving but I think um but
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for maybe family cases because people are in their own space so I think to some degree and i'm not a psychologist
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and I’m not going to profess to be one but I think it does bring down the tone because people feel they're not you know
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you're not right there with that person that you have all that animosity and there's a fine line between lemonade but
40:35
um you're not right there so being in your own space I think to a certain degree what I have found through
40:42
the mediations the family mediations that it does bring the tone down it does I think it does help facilitate uh
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resolution um and which is interesting uh another dynamic that zoom brings into the
40:57
conversation I agree 100 so strong advocate for it I’m glad you're doing it yeah and yeah
41:04
no absolutely and another wonderful thing about zoom is that if you can't tie the bow at the end
41:11
um that all I need to do is if the caucus can if kneading together with a lawyer
41:18
the mediations and mediators terms term of art uh but if
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the they're still having that conversation and they still need to be per hap for me to be involved because I
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just settled an employment case three months later after the mediation where this is the beautiful thing about zoom
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is you just send out the link and I can just bring the lawyer and his client quickly do the
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um and then just quickly do the you know the conversation the mediation and the
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intervention and then uh hopefully get the case settled for the lawyers and the parties
41:55
and uh and end yeah so wonderful so keep that in mind
42:00
everybody because it is litigation is a in general fighting disputes resolution and general litigation is a
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difficult um road to go down okay and so something you know it's better if
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you can find you know more amicable ways to resolve issues and try to put both people's feet on the ground sometimes
42:18
that you can and sometimes it's not a that's not it's not a clean process something it's a little messy process but it can't in the
42:24
sense that people get angry and they say what they want but sometimes it cleans the air [Music]
42:34
I mean look it's the emotional impact it has on somebody in the court system
42:39
going in the rabbit hole and through the lens of the court judges and juries see things through different
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lands right and it's all human nature like experience so nobody can control again can't you can't control what's
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going to happen and in family cases especially you know a case that you could have settled
42:58
at mediation two years later after spending so much money uh to the point that sometimes even
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lawyers withdraw uh that you end up probably what you would have gotten in mediation sometimes
43:10
even less so you really you know just thinking about that and that's what I try to do and emphasize that with
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the with the with the people and mediation yes definitely
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so something to look at and I think it's very worthwhile to uh look up
43:30
disable and Renee’s resolution which I love the name now and understand what it means
43:40
um so we want to thank you for joining us for this episode thank you for coming it's been wonderful thank you very much
43:53
[Laughter]
44:04
so we want to thank everyone also for tuning into the podcast and uh coming back to see us for episode six season
44:10
one we hope to see you for all our future podcasts uh also if you missed any of the podcasts and we have a lot of
44:15
interesting ones we've done in the past I think you'll be excited to see those as well please make sure you follow us on all
44:21
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renew tick tock so that would be wonderful thank you everybody and we'll see you soon take care great success
44:42
you