Episode #72 How a Simple Hug Movement During COVID Reclaimed Our Humanity

Unlock the surprising science behind how just four hugs a day can boost your survival—and what happens when you barely get any at all. If you’ve ever wondered how touch influences health, happiness, and human connection, this intimate conversation dives deep into the healing power of hugs, the impact of touch deprivation, and why we all need more genuine contact—especially in today’s disconnected world. In this eye-opening episode, Dr. Pawen Dhokal and Dr. Dustin Glass explore the extraordinary benefits of hugging from a scientific and human perspective. They reveal that the minimum for survival is four hugs daily, but most people average just one or two—and that’s a problem. You’ll discover how hugs release oxytocin, strengthen your immune system, and foster social bonds that can literally add years to your life. We break down the cultural, psychological, and physiological importance of touch, highlighting how societies with more physical connection tend to have higher longevity and better mental health. You’ll learn about the role touch plays in emotional regulation, mental wellness, and even healing—covering everything from prison systems to childhood development. The hosts share compelling research, personal stories, and practical tips to incorporate more meaningful contact into your daily routine. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

This is the second opinion for Sports Medicine Podcast. I'm Dr. Dokel. I'm Dr. Glass. Man. It's good to hear your voice, my friend. How are you today?

SPEAKER_01 0:10

It is great to hear your voice. I am doing well, thank you. Yeah, it's a beautiful day. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Yeah, I can tell the sun is shining with your 1080p camera. Yeah, look at us. Look at us. A little upgrade. Yeah. New season, right? No, new season, new things for sure. And um it's mid-February. Happy Valentine's Day to you. Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Happy Valentine's Day to you too. Yeah. Um, I uh I looked up a couple things on that um just just to have fun with it. I figured we'd uh give a shout out to Valentine's Day, and um and the spending for this year is projected at$29.1 billion on Valentine's Day. And me and you are both uh animal lovers. And so I thought this stat that they threw out there was kind of interesting. Um$2.1 billion for pets for Valentine's Day. Am I a bad that's a lot of freaking money, man?

SPEAKER_00 1:11

Am I a bad uh dog dad? I didn't get I didn't get aura anything for Valentine's Day. Damn.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Yeah, I didn't get moose. Moose is sitting right here, and he he didn't even look at me. He knows that he didn't get anything. So that's how it happens with the duty sometimes, you know. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so yeah, but it was interesting. I th we talked last night briefly, but I was on the way down to um San Diego to meet up with um some friends, um, patients, and uh they were so she started a movement during COVID, this hug movement, and so she kind of asked me to kind of be part of that, and it there's a clothing line part of it, and just but it's more about the movement, it's not necessarily about um anything monetarily really, it's just trying to get the word out about how important hugs are, and uh and and and we know that as a as a human you know being we know how important hugs are, but when uh you when you do some research on it, how important it is for a couple things. One for just pure survival, it's estimated that people need a a minimum of four hugs a day. Minimum for survival.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

Yeah, pretty interesting.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

And then to maintain basic life, you need about eight per day. Eight hugs a day to maintain good quality life. And then in order to really grow as a human being, they estimate that we should roughly get about twelve hugs a day.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

Hug up.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

That's a lot, yeah. Right? Yeah, I didn't realize that. So I just thought with Valentine's Day and me just having this meeting, and these are things that you know I've been researching for the last probably six months or so on hugging, and it's just it's a fun thing to actually research because the act of hugging feels so good, you know, releases all these good things, oxytocin, you know, m you know, all the good th feel-good hormones that we know. For sure. But um, just doing the research makes you feel good. But on average, so I just gave you those numbers on basically, you know, to survive, to uh to maintain, to grow. But what I found interesting was the average person only gets about anywhere from zero to two hugs per day.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

I believe that's that's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

So as a society, it would benefit us if we start hugging more because we're lacking. We're barely surviving. Um you know, and then you look at our prison systems, definitely they're not allowed to hug, they're not allowed to have human contact, you know, amongst the prisoners, so they're getting sicker, you know. I'm not saying that they all need to start hugging, but there's I think we could do better, right? So I kind of like this movement that she started, and um, yeah, anyways, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

I think that that's super interesting. I'd like to hear more about it as the movement grows, you know, and um uh I think that's there's a lot of thoughts I had as you were saying that. Mainly, touch is so important for your nervous system, right? And I really that was really reinforced a few years back when we had the global, you know, COVID crisis, I guess. And um for a long time there was people who were coming into the office who hadn't been touched or hadn't been, you know, uh in contact with really anybody, and I heard that over and over again, and I know you did as well, probably, you know. And yeah. Um yeah, 12 12 hugs a day though sounds a lot, right? That sounds like instead of shaking patients' hands, I need to be you know, hugging everybody as they come in almost, but just naturally when it when it feels right, I do hug patients when they leave if they've shared something emotional or we've made a breakthrough, you know. And luckily with friends that I have like yourself, like I'm not like what's up, Dustin? I haven't seen you in a while. Like, well, if I've seen I've seen you, I'm giving you a hug. Same with all my homies, you know? Like we love each other. So it uh you're right, we don't get enough. And I wonder not I wonder, I know that the increase, I was just talking to my cousin who's a vet about this, the increase in uptick and people having pets is part of that like almost loneliness epidemic, you know? Like, look, ain't nobody perfect, you know? You have to find somebody who loves you and and that you care about and want to take care of, and it's important to have family, it's important to have friends, it's important to have a community, and that community can be a CrossFit community too, you know. You don't have to be married or have kids, like you know, it it could be your family or your friends. Sometimes your friends are more your family than your family is sometimes. I understand that. And but the community is the important part, and so yeah, the hug, that's that's awesome that they're doing that. What are their names? If you don't mind, if it's uh okay to you know share or whatever. If not, we could bring them on at some point in time.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Yeah, let's uh let's wait a little while. Um I'm gonna because me and her and him are working on some things, and I wanna I asked them last night if they would want to, and they would definitely want to um come on, and I'll let them do the good intros.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Yeah, if you're just for the moment I was just wanting to give them a shout out, but that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Yeah, yeah. Well, Alex and Jess, but we'll keep the last name until that way our listeners aren't looking them up and bombarding them yet. Yeah. So for sure. Yeah, they're good people. I mean, it was interesting he came in, um, and I've never had a pay a new patient do this, and um, I turned the corner to introduce myself, and he had his arms outreached as big as he could get, and just embraced me with this huge hug, huge smile. Never even met the guy, didn't even know anything about him. And I said, Man, okay, we're doing this, and I'm like, bring it in, bro, buddy. And so, you know, and we were talking last night, is like that set the tone for every single meeting we had um from there on out. I the expectation was when we see each other, we're hugging, and it was great, you know. And um, so we we had a lot of good like whiteboard discussions last night um about you know, you know, because not everybody's a hugger, not everybody wants to be hugged, so how do you approach it? What do you do, you know? But um, yeah, you mentioned the the 12, it seems high, and in some of this research I was doing, you know, why they could because the the research isn't like there's no big like white paper out there that shows exactly how many hugs, it's basically generalizations on societies, what they've seen, and so this is how they came up with their numbers. Um, but other cultures that we know are very touchy-feely, and so and and they thrive very well, and so and that's where they're getting some of those numbers, like we know some of like you know, like Italians, and you know, like just you know, you know, Spanish, you know, they're just very clingy, touchy, you know, few cultural part. Yeah, so yeah, so then you look at their mortality rates, their your longevity rates, and stuff like that, and that's how they're coming up with these numbers. Well, they their average touches are around 12. Wow, okay, they're very healthy and fit in their 80s and 90s, you know. So that's how they kind of come up with those numbers.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

So and it it might be um duration of time, right? Like you're giving a friend a hug that lasts four minutes, that's called something else, maybe, you know. So like it could that's maybe how they come up with the number. And so, like, you know, if you get one hug or you have a significant other or a partner or whatever, and you know, you're spending quality time with them, I think that's maybe more where it comes from is the length amount of time of skin-to-skin contact, no different than like maybe a newborn to a mother and a father, that skin to skin's important. Like, even culturally in India, when I went to visit it, it made me pause for a second, just a second, until I remember culturally guys go and hold hands walking down the street all the time, you know, and it's just like their homies are holding hands, and here that would be looked at differently. And like, you know, you're just getting more touch, you know. But also culturally, there you're not showing affection to your wife or your girlfriend in public probably as much. And so then there's a but yeah, to your point, touch is important. We know it affects the immune system. We know it creates a whole you know cascade of positive hormonal and chemical changes in your body. And yeah, sometimes I think instead of talking, if you could just sit and hold hands with somebody and just look them in their eyes, you know, especially if it's your uh partner, girlfriend, boyfriend, husband, wife, whatever, like that nonverbal communication and that like energy connection is uh a real thing. There's coherence that happens there, you know? And that can happen through communication and words for sure. But some things that aren't spoken, I think, are powerful too. So I agree.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

I think right now we're seeing a in our country alone, a huge divide, right? Um, with all kinds of things, more so than I can recall in a long time. And and um, and hugging is one of those things that regardless of race, religion, whatever, um, there is I I in my research and studies, there's no religion that forbids hugging. Now, there's religions that will give it rules, like you know, you can't, you know, no contact between husband and wife, m you know, it's so it is male and male or female and female. Yeah, so it's just they have different rules, but it none of it's forbidden, even with the monks and the priests, and they now they'll choose not to, so they're not set up for temptation, but it's not as the religion forbidden. So I thought that was really interesting that that's one thing that could unify because there are no you know restrictions on it, you know, hardcore restrictions. I just it's pretty interesting. It's like a universal language kind of across all you know walks of life.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Yeah, no doubt. Yeah, I think I think that's correct. I think music and you know, touch, like you said, hugs, like those are pretty universal, you know. Dance.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

Yes, music was one of the ones I thought. Yep. Music, dance, it crosses math, you know.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

Every culture, even the indigenous people in the Amazons, you know, they're they music and dance, it's like in our DNA, you know, it's a beautiful thing. And maybe since it's so universal, it's something that we need to like revisit more often, you know, the things that we have in common the most, maybe we need to revisit more because that might uh you know make a difference in your own perspective, perhaps. I don't know. Yeah, uh I agree. Yeah, dude. Uh that's interesting. Well, I appreciate you bringing that up because I didn't expect the conversation to go there, but it um made me think about some things, you know, so I appreciate it. And probably other people who are listening, which, you know, like we said, happy Valentine's Day, but I think it's about you know just pausing to remember love, whatever that is, love for your people, love for your animals, love for your own life, love for the you know, planet and nature. Sometimes I'm driving home and I'm like, Sheesh, I this is not San Diego, but it is beautiful out here, you know. You gotta pause and recognize just the beauty of nature sometimes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

I wanna so we'll close up Valentine's Day, but and this will be a very good segue, I think, what we want to talk about.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

But this this on this day next year, so one year from now, me and you will plan on spending Valentine's Day together.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

Oh shit. Okay. I'll have to clear it with my future girl.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Yeah, exactly. I'm I'm just putting it out there right now because Super Bowl 61 is on Valentine's Day next year in SoFi.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

You know what? I knew that. Gosh dang it, I knew that. And I meant to I have it actually on my list here on my pad. Yeah. I like to freestyle these um podcasts with you, but I do have some bullet points, and that was one because I didn't know if you knew, so you do know.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

I didn't yeah, so there we go. So let's talk about Super Bowl 60, though.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

Yeah, Super Bowl 60 it is, huh? That's great, dude. So, man, my wish would be I've already heard people want like a LA Super Bowl, the Rams and the Chargers in SoFi. Maybe not the rest of the country. It might be a turnoff, it might be like the Jets and the Giants or something in the Super Bowl if that was possible. But uh man, if I had the power to speak it, I'd speak a couple things before this, but this would be one of them. Niners, Chargers in the Super Bowl, in SoFi, Valentine's Day. We're there. 61. That'll be Super Bowl 61. That's 61. You don't want 61 to be that you don't want 60 to be that way? Well, that was 60 we just had. Oh, okay. 61's coming up. I got you. My bad. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

I bet I didn't want to correct the rest when you said it, but yeah. Okay. Yes. Okay, so so give me it again, give me it again. I just want to throw it out because we're we're doing predictions, but we have to be specific and with intent.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Super Bowl 61. Super Bowl 61. San Francisco 49ers, Los Angeles Chargers. I'll see you in SoFi. February 14th, Valentine's Day, and I already love it. There you go. It's gonna be great. Yeah. And if not both those teams, maybe one of those teams would be great. And um yeah, I look forward to that, dude. A lot happens in a year, you know. A lot happens in a year. We were in different places this time last year, and you know, it uh here's what I've learned in life is that anything is possible, it just can't happen overnight sometimes. And sometimes miracles do happen or things change like this, you know. There's a a tipping point of a lot of effort, and then things seem to turn off one connection or one thing happening. But I do know for a fact intention and effort over the course of just one year, bro, you can do damn near anything, you know? And so with any athletes listening this time of year ago, there are people who were just hoping they'd have a an offer at a college, and there's people that I know that are at starting their first semester at college and doing very well for themselves athletically, financially, and hopefully academically as well. And um if anyone's had like a a year of a dip, just know that you could have a year of a peak the same way. And man, I look forward to this time next year, dude. I look forward actually when I say that I actually want to say I'm excited about today, and I I'm excited about tomorrow, and I'm excited about all the days between now and this time next year because it uh we're gonna have a lot of stuff to cover. Whoever is editing the videos, we're gonna have a lot of slices of some cool stuff because of uh the people that want to come on and the people that we know and the things that we have planned to discuss, you know. What are your thoughts on next year, real quick?

SPEAKER_01 16:42

Yeah, like you said, both of us talked about trying to stay present in the moment, right? And not not um dwell on the past and not uh um uh have anxiety over the future, but to stay as present. But I am excited about what we have penciled in, penned in for our episodes, and both of us are wanting to make that shift into building this audience as much as possible, continuing to provide great content and um just expand what we're doing. So that's really what I'm really excited about is seeing where this is gonna take us next year. I know we talked about this year in San Francisco being on Radio Row uh for the Super Bowl. Um that did not happen for us, but that doesn't mean next year we can't do that, and I think if we keep doing this, we can be there, especially since it's right in our backyard. So yeah, no doubt.

SPEAKER_00 17:36

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it was um it was awesome to watch the Super Bowl for the first time for me. I don't did you have a dog in the fight, were you rooting for anybody?

SPEAKER_01 17:48

Well, I had um uh we had a guy from um locally, we had two guys. Okay. One um the winning quarterback played at San Clemente right down the road. So he was a San Clemente. Yep, yeah, so um he right down the road, and then um we had uh the special teams captain for Patriots uh was from my daughter's school. So that's awesome. So we had two local guys playing on either side, so it was fun just seeing them, you know, on the field and do their thing and root for the hometown kind of yeah, but I did not um uh neither team I was excited about or you know, really rooting for, or I didn't I don't really care. I'm a Ram guy, you know that. Um Ram by because I grew up with the Rams, we had season tickets with the Rams. Um, personality-wise, raider fan, you know that. You know, I I I love I love the the Raider nation and uh the fight. Yeah, um but uh yeah, so neither of those were happening. So I did not want Seattle to win though because they beat beat up on the Rams.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

So yeah, yeah, well that's tough when you you know can win and you don't win, like I'm sure there's some Bills fans out there. There's a lot of teams that are good enough to win, but as we both know in sports, sometimes the best team wins and sometimes the best team doesn't win. It's a team that executes in the moment, it's a team that's most emotionally regulated, maybe, and can handle the pressure, you know. Um I was excited, I wasn't excited for the game per se, but I was excited for uh somebody that used to be on the Chargers who now is on the Seahawks, Luchena Nuoto, and he got a great play in the Super Bowl too, you know. It's like to be in the Super Bowl is amazing, to win the Super Bowl is amazing, to score a touchdown in the Super Bowl is amazing, and then if you're a defensive player and you score a touchdown, get out of here. Like you can't tell me anything, you know, like that's so I haven't had the chance to speak with him. I don't know when the next time I will be, but I will give him a hug for sure and congratulate him because uh there were times where we had discussions about um this very moment, you know, of like I want to be a champion one day, and now he can say that he's a champion forever. Not only that, but he's gonna touchdown. Like I'm more a fan of the people than I am of the team at this point, you know. Like I do have I'd like to see the Chargers win, I want to see the Niners win for sure. But you know, I was reading for the Bears two years ago. Crazier than anybody, you know, so like it uh it's just what it is. Hey, we got like five minutes before our thing cuts us off, and I did want to bring up um like one patient case because I want to get your opinion on something. But I also, if there's a patient case that you want to talk about, uh I'm down to spend the last few minutes talking about something that you have on tap.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

Yeah, yeah, um I have a patient case. Uh softball season started. Um we were finishing our travel ball season um a couple weeks ago, and then collegiate season just started up. So big time for me and my family. But um, our last tournament with our travel team, one of my daughter's teammates uh dove into um third base uh head first slide. And you see all the baseball players and softball players now wearing those oven mitts on their hands to protect their fingers.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

Well, this this particular girl, she's broken multiple fingers over the last few seasons, and so her dad was besides himself because he's bought two for her, and she doesn't wear either one. And sure enough, she came up and um they they brought her out to me out of the dugout and brought her to me, and um I looked at it, it was dislocated and um classic dislocation up and over like this finger uh pinky finger, and um so um yeah, so that's one of those on site type things. Um kind of once people know that what you do, they won't you to help out. Um A an internal medicine doctor um jumped in and took over, and so I took a step back and uh let him do his thing. And but the parent it was kind of funny, he was on the phone with a hand specialist, his friend, hand specialist, um, and just wanted to make sure he could do something for it. He didn't know what to do for it, but he wanted to have the person on the phone tell him what to do. And I meet we know what to do. Um we work with joints all the time, but you know, out of respect to him, and I didn't want to be, you know, have any egos going on with this poor girl. So it was kind of an interesting thing for interesting thing for any students to listen. Like these are the real life things that you have to take into play, you know, when to jump in, when not to jump in, how to handle it, um, you know, you know, plus being off-site, not on and it's not a patient. There is some liabilities, legalities that you have to think about, you know. So, anyways, standing back, I did do capillary refill, I did ask some questions, did all that, so I knew you know it was it was safe to relocate. Um, and um the nerve there was no nerve. Yeah, so there was no nerve issue. Yeah, so long story short, the doctor was gonna do it, the MD was gonna do it, and then the mom intervened and said, Well, he's a chiropractor, he does it all the time with joints. Do you mind if he does it? And he's all oh no, by all means, go ahead. So it was a nice thing. There was mutual respect, and um yeah, so um I did it and um it did go back. Um, but like I told her, it it what didn't go like a big old clunk, okay? So with that, one of the biggest worries that you worry about right off the bat is if there's a fracture or something. So you gotta you can't just go in there and start, you know, forcing anything. So what we do is a traction and just a little relocation. But, anyways, so we did that and it did settle and it was like slightly, you know, uh raised, but it was a lot better, anyways. My daughter was spending the night with her that night, so they weren't gonna go to urgent care, they weren't gonna do things like this. So, but the next morning or that night, well, I forget when they did, but sure enough, there was a fracture, she did have a fracture as well in there, so that's why you don't get that big, you know. But luckily, I explained everything beforehand, told them all things, what to expect, you know, and um they were just really happy, you know, even though we couldn't uh I would have liked a perfect little Kobe relocation, you know, and have a nice clunk and go back into the game, feel better. But as soon as I knew it wasn't clunking like that, I had a feeling there was a little more, but we did did well. So splinter it, taped it, um she stayed and she actually d ran for the team and stuff, so it was good, but that's a little on site type practice, but yeah.