Sinners Among Saints

Episode 66: The Double Murder Of Edward Hall and Eleanor Mills: When Shared Dreams Encounter Deadly Desires

January 12, 2024 Megan and Lindsay Season 1 Episode 66
Episode 66: The Double Murder Of Edward Hall and Eleanor Mills: When Shared Dreams Encounter Deadly Desires
Sinners Among Saints
More Info
Sinners Among Saints
Episode 66: The Double Murder Of Edward Hall and Eleanor Mills: When Shared Dreams Encounter Deadly Desires
Jan 12, 2024 Season 1 Episode 66
Megan and Lindsay

Send us a Text Message.

Hold onto your hats, history buffs and mystery lovers - we're jumping into the scandalous love affair of the early 20th century that shook a small church community to its core. Picture this: secret rendezvous, a minister and a choir singer entangled in forbidden love, and a farmhouse purchase that screams, "Scandal ahead!" Dive into the Hall-Mills murder case with us, where eyewitness accounts twist and turn like a rollercoaster, and courtroom dramas unfold with the spectacle of a circus.

But it's not all laughs and gasps; we tap into the raw emotions behind jealousy and affairs, questioning how far one might go when love morphs into something darker. As we wrap up this whirlwind of an episode, we remind you to sprinkle a little kindness wherever you go. So, if your heart's craving a bit of historical spice mixed with the honest chaos of life today, give us a listen. Just maybe leave the partner-swapping to the soap operas, okay?

The Family Histories Podcast
A genealogy addicted guest, a Life Story, a research Brick Wall..... and a time machine.

Listen on: Apple Podcasts   Spotify

Thanks for all the support!! Please follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Tik Tok, or email us, and remember we now have a Patreon!!
patreon.com/sinnersamongsaintspodcast
sinnersamongsaintspodcast@gmail.com
Tik Tok @sinnersamongsaints

Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Send us a Text Message.

Hold onto your hats, history buffs and mystery lovers - we're jumping into the scandalous love affair of the early 20th century that shook a small church community to its core. Picture this: secret rendezvous, a minister and a choir singer entangled in forbidden love, and a farmhouse purchase that screams, "Scandal ahead!" Dive into the Hall-Mills murder case with us, where eyewitness accounts twist and turn like a rollercoaster, and courtroom dramas unfold with the spectacle of a circus.

But it's not all laughs and gasps; we tap into the raw emotions behind jealousy and affairs, questioning how far one might go when love morphs into something darker. As we wrap up this whirlwind of an episode, we remind you to sprinkle a little kindness wherever you go. So, if your heart's craving a bit of historical spice mixed with the honest chaos of life today, give us a listen. Just maybe leave the partner-swapping to the soap operas, okay?

The Family Histories Podcast
A genealogy addicted guest, a Life Story, a research Brick Wall..... and a time machine.

Listen on: Apple Podcasts   Spotify

Thanks for all the support!! Please follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Tik Tok, or email us, and remember we now have a Patreon!!
patreon.com/sinnersamongsaintspodcast
sinnersamongsaintspodcast@gmail.com
Tik Tok @sinnersamongsaints

Speaker 2:

Hey guys, I'm Megan and I'm Lindsay, and welcome to another week of Sinners Among Saints. Welcome back.

Speaker 3:

We missed you Always Every week. I miss you More and more every week, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I cry every day a little bit. I'm just waiting for Friday to come so we can do this again. Amen. And if we lived closer together, though, I think we'd get together a little bit more. It would be so much easier.

Speaker 3:

It would be nice. It's not like we live like really far ways away, but it's not like down the street.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's harder when you have kids and like after school activities and all the things I know.

Speaker 3:

I wish we could just be neighbors hey neighbor, and then we could just go do our after school stuff together.

Speaker 2:

That would be so nice.

Speaker 3:

Or one of us cooks dinner one night and the other one cooks dinner the other night Amazing. And we just like, don't have to worry about it. That would be amazing. Yeah, that would be amazing.

Speaker 2:

I mean, that's my sister wives wishes I don't want to share, like the bedroom side of my partner with anyone but everything else.

Speaker 3:

Yes, absolutely yes, a thousand percent.

Speaker 2:

And I wouldn't. I don't think because, like with the sister wives like at least the ones that have the TV show and the Browns that were here in Utah and I watched all of their episodes they used to have like issues about when they lived in the same house, like the kitchen and like they would have all these fights. But I think it's because it all goes down to the fact that, like you're sucking my husband's dick just like I am, like it's a whole thing, yeah. So then you're going to get like petty shit everywhere else, oh oh yeah, whereas like in a relationship where it's like that part's separate but we're going to sister wife, like all the other stuff and it's like oh, thank you yeah.

Speaker 2:

Like oh my God, you're making that, You're amazing.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's not how I would make it.

Speaker 2:

But who cares?

Speaker 3:

Like I don't care I don't have to do it, right, it's wonderful I don't have to. All that. Some sister wives are like that in the bedroom too, like can you just take him another night.

Speaker 2:

I mean I don't have to do it. There are plenty of women who don't like that part of the relationship and probably could get behind that part of it. Yeah.

Speaker 3:

There probably is a great deal of women who would be like yeah sign me up.

Speaker 2:

I'm too jealous. I could not.

Speaker 3:

No, not a chance, I don't want you looking at him. No, not a chance.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, no, don't brush anything off his shirt when he walks by you Don't even. Yeah, it would be super hard. So yeah, no. Yeah, not about that, but there are plenty of women who might be so yeah, for sure.

Speaker 3:

And to each their own. You know, get it.

Speaker 2:

Get it girls. Sorry If my voice is at all just crackly. I've been a little. We've had just sickness at my house this week. I know you've been.

Speaker 3:

It's like back to back for you.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's been terrible. And because Lily was thrown up earlier this week. So I got off work on Tuesday and she's 13. Normally she doesn't give a shit if I ever come home Like she's perfectly fine. But I'll have to get this message. And I was getting like last minute Christmas gifts for the special department for Zander's teachers. Yeah, because he went back to school Wednesday. My kids and him went back to school on Wednesday anyway. So I was at the store and she's like when are you going to come home? And I'm like I mean I'll be there soon, like why? And she's like my stomach hurts so bad. And I was like okay, like she's like are you throwing up? And she's just like no, not yet. But I just said like it hurts so bad. And so I get home and she's just laying on the floor in her room. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2:

I was like what are you doing? And she's like I'm just watching TikTok. And I'm like why are you not in your bed?

Speaker 3:

And she's like I don't know I was like okay, I just feel like a lot of work to climb up there.

Speaker 2:

And so I got myself kind of put together. And then I was doing putting together the gifts but I was just sitting on my bed and no one runs in. One sister just threw up and he was like so distraught that I was like did she just puke on the floor? Like where did she throw up? Like in the sink, on the floor? Like I'm thinking I have to clean this up. And I'm like part of me is like are you shitting me? Like you are far too big to be just throwing up. But he's like no, she's in the bathroom. And I was like okay, well, you know, I'm sure she's okay, but I'll go check on her. Check on her when she's yeah, so she gets out and I can hear. So I'm like, well, come here, and she comes in my room and she like looks so much better. She's like just throw up. She's like, yeah, I think she felt better. She's like so much better.

Speaker 3:

I'm going to go eat.

Speaker 2:

And I'm like I don't know, Maybe hold up on that. What are you going to eat? She's like chili oh gross, Because that's she lives off of the. Is it Nali? Yeah, Nali, thick chili. Those cans of that I literally buy like four cans a week. She lives on that stuff and I was like I don't know that that's a good idea. I was like but you know what, you are big enough you can eat and know if you're going to throw up the rolling up chili sounds like terrible, right.

Speaker 2:

But when kids are young, like you don't want them to eat because you're like you don't know where they're going to throw up, it could be like spontaneous right there, and then you have to clean it up. So you're like, no, you can't eat, sorry, I don't care how hungry you are. Like we got to hold this, we're going to wait it out, right, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

But she went and did that and then I came downstairs and she's just like pale. I'm like how was your chili? She's only had like two bites and I had to plug my nose because it was making me gag by the smell of it. So she was just like all the whole night and then by the next day she was fine.

Speaker 2:

And she's been fine, but then I started with mine, just like congestion, and I had to call Cody last night so I was going to pick up an order for him at Walmart and it wasn't working Like I thought I was hoping he could send me the link and it would pull up on my app, but it was just like you have no orders. And I was like dammit, and so I had to call him and he's like what's the matter? And I was like I'm just sick, just kind of hit, and he's like what is going on with you guys? And I was like listen seriously is like you are around hundreds of people a week like the public, like you are just around all of these people every day. I was like I'm literally around the children and the five people I work with and that is it. I don't ever like hardly even go into a store Like I do.

Speaker 2:

My shopping is online and I go pick up groceries and like now that I don't like work full full time and I do the online grocery shopping like I really am not out in the public very much and I was like so you have like a pretty good immune system because you're just around crap all day long and I'm just around kids and so I think I'm just getting everyone's Christmas stuff that they brought back to school.

Speaker 3:

My kids all got sick too. Like well, I mean, cruz had COVID, what was that three weeks ago, or something. And. Knox got it. He didn't get COVID, but he got sick and tested negative for COVID right before Christmas break. And then Jess missed the whole week this week because he's been having like weird symptoms, but he tested negative. So I'm like well.

Speaker 2:

I don't know, I'm not sick Crap yeah, and. I'm exposed to so much crap that I really just but normally like as a mom.

Speaker 3:

I still get sick at least a couple of times a year with like cold stuff. This year it hasn't I mean not gone wood, but it.

Speaker 2:

I haven't gotten anything Well, and I've always worked full time, yeah, and so I've always like, as a mom I'm like moms don't get sick, like I just don't get sick. But I feel like the longer I'm not working full time and like the less people I'm around, I'm starting to notice that I like pick up stuff a little bit easier, because I'm like literally just around gross kids, yeah, and so they're a little cessed. They are, and it's hard when they're little. Like Lily is old enough and she didn't want me to like snuggle her, or you know, I even told her I was like into a podcast. I'm like you can come lay in my bed and like watch my TV in my room with me if you want, and she's never. She was like okay, but she never came in there. She's like I just want to watch TikTok, but Nolan definitely would like get up in my face, right Like he's still little enough.

Speaker 2:

So you have some kids like they're still young, they want to like still kind of be all close and in your face, so yeah, and then we have, you know, to have a special needs who literally does not. It's like having a little baby. Sometimes just in the fact of like he'll sneeze in your face, you're like gross, like you're nine and like Cody had to tell me the other day, like stop burping in my face because he'll literally get so close to you and then just burp and you're like gross, no, and he like laughs and it's so hard. Because it's hard, because you, in order for him to understand your series, you like have to be kind of firm.

Speaker 2:

But you like don't want to like. It's not like you want to be mad at him, but it's like.

Speaker 3:

that's not nice and I guess so do that on a daily basis and they're not special needs.

Speaker 2:

So he just but they know the difference. They're doing it like to be that way Like he'll be 40 and still do that if you don't stop it because they'll never like, he'll never grow out of it, and so it's like no, stop doing that. Like it's bad enough, where he like doesn't understand farts either, like he doesn't even know when he does it, he doesn't make any sort of reaction. And so he like will come and send your lap and then just fart and you're like seriously dude.

Speaker 2:

yeah, I hope me it's disgusting boys are gross boys are kind of gross all around.

Speaker 3:

All right, we have to talk about this. Las Vegas, I'm not. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I'm not laughing because I think like oh my word, but the judge, the Las Vegas judge, you guys that just was attacked by this.

Speaker 3:

If you guys seem like a piece of shit, you have to go watch because it's insane. I mean, so he's in court for like battery, right?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, like it's a battery charges, I think they say, like he's a three time felon or something like he does. He has a record.

Speaker 3:

He calmly, is like well, you know, I'd really like probation, but if you don't feel like that's the right way to go, then you have to do what you got to do. And he's like very cooperative and polite. And the judge, who is a female, is like yeah, I don't think that that's the right way to go.

Speaker 2:

It's even gonna work. No, and I. But I even think she's being kind of polite, because I've seen plenty of judges that are like listen, you don't learn a dick about it.

Speaker 3:

No, she really isn't. And all of a sudden you just see the video and this guy like he looks like a flying squirrel.

Speaker 2:

It's honestly impressive Like he has the.

Speaker 3:

he's like a gazelle slash flying squirrel where his arms and legs all go out. I don't even think he touched the bench. Like he cleared that he's probably a skinwalker, something it was it's insane.

Speaker 2:

It's insane. And her poor. I feel so bad because she's older too. Not that it matters what age you are, but like he hits her and you can tell when you get older. And yeah, I mean I sleep weird and like I wake up and I'm injured for the next week. So, like that shit is not the same.

Speaker 3:

No, like she hits her head on the wall behind her so hard and then she like and then you don't see what happens on the ground for a minute, and then she gets up, and so the bailiff, finally, is like helping her, but it takes a minute for them to subdue him Like far too long in my opinion.

Speaker 2:

Like I was like where the shit are all of them.

Speaker 3:

They were not prepared for this. Oh, it's insane. And then she stands up and is like grabbing her head, Poor lady Like oh, my word yeah. And are you?

Speaker 2:

okay, okay, dude, that's not helping your like assault charges for you to fly over the bench.

Speaker 3:

Pretty sure you're going to get a few more years for that one. Oh yeah, absolutely Because she was going to be lenient at all. One You're getting the book thrown at you and two you're getting extra charges for that shit. So smooth move.

Speaker 2:

I just was when I saw the video, because it was like, you know, a judge gets attacked and I was like, oh shit. And so I'm like watching the video and it's like you know, she's looking down, like reading some stuff and you can kind of touch like season, and she looks up and she starts trying to kind of slide back and then he literally, like out of nowhere, clears the entire bench like flies over it it really is you guys?

Speaker 3:

It's like he doesn't even super human. It really is. It's like I don't know where this guy should have been in some sport, because it's literally like a gazelle, like. It's so like I picture him running on all fours even though he probably didn't do that and then leaping, and then he goes out like a flying, a flying, freaking squirrel, and his shirt is all out. So it looks like he has wings. I hope he didn't run out it's. I mean, he might be possessed, I don't know.

Speaker 3:

There's something not right about how he jumped, but it's impressive. No but like terrifying.

Speaker 2:

It's so terrifying. Like dude, he should not be on the streets. No, no, you're violent. You're a violent offender, like if you're in court and you literally, like he sounds so calm, like 30 seconds before he loses his ever loving shit like totally calm, not even like like no like, oh, sorry, I was like. What is that I? Get lost Okay.

Speaker 3:

I keep like looking at myself and I'm moving my chair around and I'm like something's rubbing on the mic.

Speaker 2:

Nope, it was me. I'm sorry, I touch things and I shouldn't. I don't think about it, sorry. It's okay, I'm just gonna figure out where it was coming from. But yeah, he, it's, it's, it's insane. And someone that can, like your switch, flips like that, that's scary, yeah, that's terrifying, terrifying.

Speaker 3:

So, you have not watched the video, please go watch it, because it's watch. We're gonna put, we're gonna try and post it. Yeah, we should post it, we're gonna share it, yeah, because it's insane. It's nuts.

Speaker 2:

It, yeah and tell me that this guy does not look like a possessed Gazelle slash flying squirrel, flying squirrel is a perfect analogy, or whatever yeah because I don't feel good guys Like yeah description I cannot think of words lately and it's been really bad Like it's almost like I'm on like I'm.

Speaker 3:

I don't think you need to take some vitamin D and some vitamin B, okay.

Speaker 2:

Because I feel like I'm like there's a medication that my mom used to take, and like Cody takes, that makes you like dumb and not be able to think of words and I feel like someone's slipping me that medication because it's been so bad and I don't know what's happening.

Speaker 3:

It might help your immune system to vitamin. D and vitamin B. Okay, noted Done.

Speaker 2:

Do it, do it, do it. But yeah, that was, that was that Okay, and also have you guys seen the picture of?

Speaker 3:

oh my gosh, you sent that to me. Was it today? It was yesterday, I think you sent it.

Speaker 2:

Oh, it was because I was at a basketball game and I was like so it's a side by side and it's kind of sad because you think of like the psychological things behind it a little bit, but it's a side by side of Gypsy Rose with her husband and Gypsy Rose with her mother. When she's younger they her mother and her husband could be twins are identical.

Speaker 3:

They are identical. It is the creepiest thing I've ever seen. I was, I opened it and I was like I first I thought it was just two pictures of her and her husband. I really did. And then I, and then I looked close and I was like holy shit, yeah, I was like showing it to Mario and I was like what is happening? What? Yeah, it's really really bad.

Speaker 2:

We should try and post that one too, yeah because I, even when I see, just like people who have not been abused, right, and they like marry someone who looks like their parent, yeah, and like creepy, what's happening that way? Yeah, like what is going on and with her situation and like all of that, I'm like is there something behind it? Like is there a? I don't know, it's definitely like interesting but it was.

Speaker 3:

I was like oh, my God it looks just like her, it really does.

Speaker 2:

It's a little creepy, so yeah.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's weird, it is.

Speaker 2:

Anywho, all right. Well, I apologize if I have to cough or sneeze or anything. I will try to not do it into the microphone very much, I'll try to edit it out.

Speaker 3:

as long as she's not in the middle of talking or I'm in the middle of talking, I will really try. That's when we're not able to edit it out. Yeah, it's because of that I'm not. Yeah, people get kind of irritated with that and it's like, well, sometimes there's not much we can do. Yeah, so you'd be surprised at what we have edited. Oh, yeah, for sure, so I'm sorry. I shouldn't say we. I have nothing to do with the editing. But it's moral support, it's moral support.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so let's jump in. This is probably a little bit longer, but let's jump in. Okay, let's do it. Hey, we're going to begin with Edward Wheeler Hall. He was born in 1881. He grew up in Brooklyn, new York, the only son in a poor family. Not a very young age he became involved with his local church and as a young boy he moved up the ranks and was eventually the head of the boys' choir at Grace Church. Now, when he was older, he attended Brooklyn Polytechnic Institute where he graduated in 1898. He received a scholarship to Hobart College where he was known as a quote rather wild youth. His wildness consisted of drinking, gambling and companionship this is just what it says in the thing Companionship of all sorts with all sorts. Wow, it's the only time he's like super risque for that era.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's the only time that something like that comes out. I don't know what with all sorts of that just meant with promiscuous ladies, because back then that was like you know or? If it was like men and women. And that was also back then a big no-no, so I've annoyed it. Okay, but he was companion-sure.

Speaker 3:

He was living life.

Speaker 2:

But he eventually realized that he was headed kind of down the wrong path. So he dropped out of Hobart College and he entered the ministry. He was right, kind of a big shift. Wow, that's like a big shift. Yeah, like I got to get my life.

Speaker 3:

right, let's jump from one end of the spectrum to the next.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so he was the assistant pastor at St Mark's Episcopal Church in Basking Ridge for two years and then, after those two years, he receives a promotion and is moved to New Brunswick to become the pastor at St John's Church. New Brunswick is in New Jersey. Okay, Edward found some vacant rooms in a Victorian boarding house where he ended up renting two rooms, one for himself and one for his mother who would come with him when he moved. That's nice. Yeah, I've no idea of like I'm guessing his dad was gone or I've no idea about any of that, but his mom was did move with him.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so this was great for a while. But eventually Ed realized that like it wasn't going to be long term and he was really big on just continually moving up in life. And back then especially, in order to move up in life you had to be married. Okay, you weren't like really doing much in life if you never got married. So rumors are that Edward was looking a little bit more for financial security than he was love when he set his sights on a woman named Francis Noel Stevens.

Speaker 3:

It's always a great way to start a relationship. Yeah, always.

Speaker 2:

Highly recommend. I remember when Shane was first police officer, one of his FTOs was on his second marriage and he had said, like his first marriage was love and his second marriage was definitely money.

Speaker 3:

Money. Yeah, you can love a rich man just as well as you can love a poor man my grandma used to say that to my mom. So she was rich, yeah.

Speaker 2:

My grandma used to say that. And she was. I did not listen, she was. I mean, my grandma was from South America and she just was had a little bit different ideals, you know, obviously she was also a board in the 1920s, so it was just like a whole different like era.

Speaker 3:

But she's always said that I can't imagine. I can't imagine like only dating rich people.

Speaker 2:

No so that's what you would marry, and when people like say you know, oh, like women are just, you know, they're always, it's always money. They always want more money.

Speaker 3:

And I'm like I don't care about your money. No, I can give two shifts. Yeah, that's about what you make.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I don't. I want to like you as a good person.

Speaker 3:

That's what I want.

Speaker 2:

Right, but I'm obviously in the minority, so whatever Now, frances was born in 1874, which made her seven years older than Edward Ooh. Which was also a little so cool.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, a little faux pas back then she was hitting the jackpot Kind of.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So she was the youngest of three and the only girl, and when a word of this new pastor in town came about, frances did switch from her luxurious downtown Christ church to St John's Now. Frances had never married and lived in the family mansion where she cared for her aging mother and her brother Willie. Now she is not known to be very good looking.

Speaker 3:

Frances Okay.

Speaker 2:

So she, so she had to be rich, yeah, and they're apparently related to the Johnson and Johnson family, like medical, like back then I did medical supply stuff, yeah, I don't know how closely, but they're mothers. The one who left them, okay, a bunch of like money, and so the rumor was that they were worth about $2 million, damn, which in today's money is equal to over $37 million. Okay, so they were pretty pretty well off back then. The couple was an odd one, with Edward being charismatic and outgoing and well, they said he wasn't really conventionally attractive. There was something he had that drew the women to him.

Speaker 2:

Frances was fairly unattractive, older than Edward, and she was very reserved and their personalities didn't really mesh. But somehow it worked and two years later they were married in a ceremony. The ceremony was talked about in the New Brunswick Daily Home News, noting that her family wealth and her active interest in Edward St John Church. Now Edward and his mother packed up from their Victorian boarding house and moved up the hill into the Stevens Mansion with Frances, her mother and her brother Willie Now, her brother was said to have been the one thing I was reading kept using the R word, like mentally. But yeah, I think, as I read more, he may have just had like Asperger's.

Speaker 1:

Like I think he might have just been like just socially.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Socially he was a little odd, you know, just a little like quirky. But he functioned fine, like he was, you know, he took care of himself. And on the day of the Stevens Hall wedding, in a dilapidated home about two blocks from St John's Church, was another married couple named Jim and Eleanor Mills. They lived in the upper two floors of this house with their two children, danny one and Charlotte five. The couple had married in 1905, when Jim was 28 and Eleanor was 17. Oh right.

Speaker 2:

I know, back then it was just so different, so weird. Eleanor was pretty and petite, and her sister described her as a highly imaginative character, fond of reading and of expressing thoughts and ideas, while Jim was described as quote, a colorless, passive, insignificant sort of man whose brother, a colorless, passive insignificant man whose brother and friends called him simple Jim as a child.

Speaker 3:

Oh, that's so mean Simple, jim.

Speaker 2:

Come here, brothers are such assholes, and so you have like both of these couples, like very different personalities, it seems. I mean, it doesn't sound like any of these people are like that great, I mean really yeah, I mean, you know Francis is fine, she's just, you know, not super attractive and kind of like a introvert I would say probably.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, just an introvert.

Speaker 2:

She doesn't seem like she was necessarily a bad person, she was just quiet.

Speaker 3:

It doesn't seem like any of these people are like super fun, bubbly, outgoing, attractive, like one's rich ugly and an introvert yeah, and her husband's not. One's called Simple Jim, like yeah, this is not like a swingers paradise.

Speaker 2:

No, no, no. Jim was a cobbler and a factory worker, and Eleanor, who was well educated and intelligent, was extremely involved in her church as well. This started in 1904, when Eleanor was 16 and she decided to join the church choir. Now, it didn't take long for the mills marriage to begin to deteriorate. Eleanor was frustrated at Jim's inability to provide for the family. They constantly struggled and Eleanor felt, if the roles could be reversed, that she would be able to provide far better than Jim, which I find like frustrating, because back then, like women didn't, they weren't allowed to do that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you couldn't work, and so it's like that would be very frustrating when you're like I could do this and I could make us more money and I can't.

Speaker 3:

I can imagine. It would be, super frustrating Yep.

Speaker 2:

But then some people are just never happy too. So who knows if, like, that's really the case. And you know, you just never know. But when Eleanor's children were small, she just threw herself into caring for them as a way to distract herself from her marriage. But as they got older and entered school, she decided to throw herself into church. Now, beginning in 1914, she also began to dabble in extra marital affairs, using the congregation as her dating pool.

Speaker 3:

So then people were throwing themselves into her, yeah all over, all over. All over, all right.

Speaker 2:

As Eleanor became more involved with the church, francis began to pull away from the church, signaling that maybe her marriage as well was souring. But Francis said that her withdrawal was more because she felt that wasn't proper for the wife of the minister to be so involved in the daily workings of the church. I have no idea, okay, I don't know what you should and shouldn't do as a pastor's wife.

Speaker 3:

So Nope, I've never lived that life, so Nope, no judgment here. Who knows? And the early, like most people, are very involved.

Speaker 2:

I feel like it too. Yeah, okay, everything I've ever like seen or whatever. Yeah, seems like the wives are pretty involved. Okay, in the early 1920s, edward's mother moved out of the large family mansion after she had a fight with Francis. I have no idea what it was about, but I've obviously like pissed her off and his mom just left and never came back.

Speaker 3:

The pastor probably take a lot because I guarantee she doesn't have a lot of money to go to a new place. Probably now she's single.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean now she probably does, just because I'm sure Edward probably pays for things, maybe, but or her to be like.

Speaker 3:

I just feel like she probably didn't have to have to know what the fight was. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Because they live there's I mean, supposedly live in this big mansion. They have a couple servants like I don't imagine she would have to be around Francis very much Like she probably yeah.

Speaker 2:

So for you to be like so pissed and get a fight that you like leave kind of a cush place to live, yeah, it was probably pretty, a pretty decent fight. So now all that was left in this home where people that Edward really felt no connection with, including his wife, so, thankfully, as a minister he was expected to spend a lot of his time outside of his home tending to parishioners of the church. So Eleanor at this time also has a lot more free time because her children need her less since they're older. And it did not take long before the minister and the choir singer became romantically involved.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so Edward noticed the young, pretty intelligent woman with beautiful singing voice, irresistible, and she felt the same about him. He was charismatic, upbeat, she felt like he was handsome and a man of the cloth, which made him even more attractive to her. That's, why is that? I don't know. I mean, how many times have you watched a true crime show and it's a dude in the church, like a higher brother and pastor, whatever he is, and someone in the church, in the congregation.

Speaker 3:

That's the very last thing that I'm like, ooh, that's who I want to have an affair with is someone who's like high up in the church.

Speaker 2:

Right, because it's first of all, everyone's watching you. Yeah, everyone notices. It's not a secret ever.

Speaker 3:

I mean maybe people like that, I guess. I mean, I guess fairs feel like, you know, it's like exciting, because it's forbidden and this is maybe even more so that because it's like a little dirty, but at the same time it's like too dirty for me, right?

Speaker 2:

I don't know. I'm not about the affair side of any of it, so for me I have a hard time wrapping my mind around it because it doesn't seem exciting to me. It gives me anxiety to think about. Oh, me too, like getting caught and having to sneak around.

Speaker 3:

There's no way I could do it. No, but I get the appeal of it, yeah, right.

Speaker 2:

Like being sneaky and some people like that kind of thing?

Speaker 3:

For sure, no, but the last thing I'm going to do is go throw it at my pastor.

Speaker 2:

Right. If I felt like I was going to have an affair, it would be someone that like no one knew, or like a bad boy type.

Speaker 1:

Right yeah, like a pastor, like how good is your pastor in bed really, if I find a cheat on my husband.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I'm going to find someone that could do dirty things to me. Yeah, absolutely Not like a man of the cloth.

Speaker 2:

No, that's no no, thank you yeah. I don't get it yeah, agreed, agreed.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Now, they both loved music, nature, reading and the German culture. He studied German in college and she was of German ancestry and as time went on, they just became more and more brazen with their relationship, almost treating this Alyssa affair as like their primary relationship, that's weird so weird, huh. In 1920 Edward even hired Eleanor's husband Jim as the sexton of the church I had to look this up because I was like what the hell is a sexton?

Speaker 3:

That's like your handyman, like your person who takes care of your church? I know of a sexton as like at the cemetery yeah, but they take care of the cemetery. So it's like your person who, like that's the only one ever known as sexton is that works at a cemetery.

Speaker 2:

So they just like kind of take care of the grounds and they take care of all that.

Speaker 2:

So it's the same like in sexton of the church is just like the dude who, like takes care of all of the stuff that they need taken care of. Okay, so Jim hires plumbing grounds, like all that kind of stuff. Right, that's weird, but he hires him. Yes, and he did. But he didn't do it to be like nice or helpful or anything like that. He hired him because they were afraid, if Jim was unable to provide for the family, that it was going to cause them to move from New Brunswick, oh, and he didn't want her to leave. So that is really conniving, right, so he could just like get out of the job, just so that he could continue to sleep with his wife.

Speaker 3:

That is scandalous.

Speaker 2:

Right, like that's some shit. And this guy, at one point, this guy, like one of the things I read was like he was one of my best friends, like he thought that, like Edward was like his also Simple Jim.

Speaker 3:

So he's also simple. I'm sure he's like.

Speaker 2:

But he really thought they were like friends at first, or buddies, he loves me.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, no, he's just a blanket, he knows his wife and oh, wow, right, okay. So then in the story it really is like scandalous.

Speaker 2:

It is really scandalous.

Speaker 3:

Especially for the time. Oh yeah, I'm digging it. Oh yeah, absolutely. It's like a telenovela.

Speaker 2:

Well, and in this one thing that I read in all post-executives I can't remember the exact name of it, it's like an article, not an article, it's like a like an examination of the case Okay, a lot about the transition from the Victorian era into whatever era came after that I don't know what they call it the 1920s, the post-Victorian era, yeah, the post-Victorian era, because it was a very different shift in women and women's culture and marriages and just women's place in the world.

Speaker 2:

Whereas the Victorian era you weren't supposed to have sex, even in your marriage, unless it was to procreate. Everything was just very, very chased and different. And then you were getting into the early 1900s and the 1920s and things were shifting and people women were becoming more sexual and more comfortable and confident with that. Then the word divorce started coming around, where there were some articles about that you could get a divorce. Before that women were like you couldn't do it and so this was just kind of like a different time. So it's like this is a little scandalous. People are kind of getting a taste of some shit and they're like I like this, I kind of like it.

Speaker 2:

So in 1921, edward helps the Mills family again financially when Eleanor has to have a minor kidney operation. The operation went off without a hitch and Jim promised Edward that he would pay him back in installments. And although the operation was like fairly minor, before Eleanor went into surgery Edward was reported to say quote if she dies then I shall kill myself. Oh, he also sent her a bouquet of flowers afterward, wishing her a very speedy recovery. Edward and Eleanor would spend time going on long drives. They would sometimes bring along a portable phonograph so they could listen to music while they ate.

Speaker 3:

Of course a little phonograph.

Speaker 2:

And I just because like.

Speaker 3:

I picture them.

Speaker 2:

I do too, but I like picture it like, because phonographs are like kind of big. How big was this portable like a phonograph Like? Was it big and clunky or like that they have? I don't, I have no idea, but like in my mind it's just like this big photograph.

Speaker 2:

It's like put out on the car like like and listen to music while they picnic or whatever. And one afternoon after like day out together, they drove past this flower garden that had sweet peas, which just happened to be Eleanor's favorite flower, and Edward was going to stop and see if the person was home and ask if he could take some for Eleanor, but instead he just jumped out of the car, ran up to the fence, plucked one from the ground and when he brought it back to where he said quote Eleanor, I have become a thief. For your sake. Oh my God, honestly like if you listen to their relationship, it's kind of sweet, had they not been married to other people, right?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, like I think they kind of see this in an old time movie and they're like falling in love.

Speaker 2:

I do kind of think that they really loved each other, but they were married to other people. Yeah.

Speaker 3:

You know you ask life with someone else and kids with someone else woman has children with another man, yeah. Oh, that's okay. Yeah, it's not okay.

Speaker 2:

But I do think they loved each other. Or maybe they lost at each other, who knows?

Speaker 3:

Well, maybe you shouldn't have married for money the first time, right and been a greedy bastard yeah. And then you could have married for love for real, yeah.

Speaker 2:

But another place they would visit to be alone was the Phillips Farm. Now, this was an abandoned lot near the county line between Middlesex and Somerset counties and it was a popular lovers lane that many people from New Brunswick frequented.

Speaker 3:

Right.

Speaker 2:

So the trek to get there was not really an easy one, but for everyone the reward was well worth the effort. So they would either drive now back then. Not everyone had cars.

Speaker 3:

Right, oh shit, you always forget about this stuff, yeah.

Speaker 2:

So they would either drive, because obviously Edward is very wealthy so they do have a family car, but he doesn't always take it, or, if they didn't, because he would have to have like a good excuse to take the car. So it wasn't like driving now or it's just like you just take the car and go into the store or whatever.

Speaker 2:

It was like it wasn't like a your normal day to day thing, and so there had to be like kind of a good excuse in order for his wife to not be like what are you, where are you going with the car?

Speaker 3:

Okay, If not, they would have to-. Did his wife not know about the affair at this point either? Is she like simple Jim?

Speaker 2:

No, Okay, no, they pretty much both know of like eventually, because it just is like it's just out there.

Speaker 3:

Because they're not hiding it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, okay, but they try to hide it, obviously for a little bit, right, but if anyway, if they couldn't take, if there was no car, then they would ride the street car and then I love that too Right.

Speaker 3:

Let's go ride the street car together.

Speaker 2:

So they would ride the street car and you'd get to this park and you'd have to walk through the park and then there was all these streets and like it, so it was like a trek together. You'd go down all these streets and down these lanes and then eventually you would get to the Phillips farm, which was hidden by unkempt like grass and trees and was just kind of like this old farm and a big like filled right.

Speaker 2:

I love this and although they were rarely like, they were rarely alone when they were at this lover's lane, the fact that, like pretty much everyone that was there was not really supposed to be there and they were not doing like appropriate things, everyone just kind of like kept to themselves, right, like no one's going to pay attention to you because like that could be your neighbor and he doesn't want you to see what he's doing. And so, like it was a very like you just do your thing, I'll do my thing and we're not going to-. Wow, what happens at Phillips farm?

Speaker 3:

stays at Phillips farm, pretty close to one another.

Speaker 2:

Not necessarily, because I think it was a pretty big property. But you might pass them as you're like walking through.

Speaker 3:

Wow, okay, yes.

Speaker 2:

So it was risky. This is but everything.

Speaker 3:

It was a risque. I like it.

Speaker 2:

But pretty much everything they were doing at this point was risky. And that was until Edward surprises Eleanor by buying the Phillips farmhouse Shut up. So he literally buys the Lover's Lane farmhouse and surprises her with like surprise. Now we don't have to roll around in the grass anymore, we have like a house. We can go to the house.

Speaker 3:

What did he tell Francis? So that was purchase. Eleanor was like family money.

Speaker 2:

Eleanor was like I don't know how about this? And he was like, don't worry, I bought this through like a trusted third party person. They promised to keep it a secret. There's nothing to worry about, there's always something to worry about. Nothing ever comes of it. Okay, I have no idea. But he bought her a farmhouse so they could go have sex without like having to be out in the grass and like being like secretive.

Speaker 3:

That must have been some good ass sex man, Something Something about it. He bought me a farmhouse to have sex with me. What does that say?

Speaker 2:

I haven't even really gone to the Lover's Lane, so rude Like maybe look out point Right yeah. Nothing like this.

Speaker 3:

I used to go make out with my high school boyfriend and there was like this church in Evanston that if you went like so it's like two stories, so that you pull in and there's like a parking lot and a church, and then you go down and there's like a second parking area down there. Down there. We used to go sneak down there all the time in our cars and just make out Sinful I know Sinful. That was a little scandalous.

Speaker 2:

You did make out quite a bit with people in high school. I like had a boyfriend who was then my husband.

Speaker 3:

So I didn't. No, I did not as much. I was not about that life. I like to make out with a lot of people.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you did. There's a couple on the Smothered that I'm watching because I'm now watching Smothered. If you haven't watched that, please check it out it is fantastic.

Speaker 2:

But there's a couple on there and her mom literally has cameras all over their house so they can't like do anything so they always have to just have sex outside in his car. But on Sundays they meet because he goes to church with his mom and she goes to church with her mom and they meet as a church and have sex in his car in the church parking lot. I'm always like there's not another, but probably is the quietest parking lot. Yeah, to do it in.

Speaker 3:

Well, I got caught at parks way too much.

Speaker 2:

Parks are definitely not the place to go, because that's where everyone goes.

Speaker 3:

Control that area. Yeah, or you could be like do you remember?

Speaker 2:

those kids in the Derrick Todd Lee case that were at the park. Yeah, and he, freaking, threw the door open and hatched them with an axe. Nope, yeah, nope.

Speaker 3:

But if you go to church parking lots that doesn't happen.

Speaker 2:

No, that's where I recommend and the teenage listeners you go find an empty church parking lot. Get it, you'll be smited. Get it Now. This was about the time that Eleanor's marriage really fell apart and she began just sleeping in the attic with her daughter. Her husband knew about her fare and she didn't really give a shit, nor did she hide it.

Speaker 3:

Man.

Speaker 2:

Right. Can you even imagine this? No, to be like so I hate you so much that I don't give a shit that you know I'm sleeping with someone else, but we literally can't get divorced.

Speaker 3:

That would be so terrible, the most awkward dinners ever, right.

Speaker 2:

And your poor kids. I feel bad for her kids because at least Edward and Francis never have kids.

Speaker 3:

So they don't have any. Yeah, because you know kids sense all that shit.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, they know what's happening. They hear about stuff too, like Eleanor's not being quiet about it and pretend like she just doesn't give a shit. Just listen, simple, jim. Yeah, so like during one argument with.

Speaker 3:

I'm not your lady anymore.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So during one argument with her, you didn't buy me a farmhouse. Yeah, you don't get this poor saying you can't even buy a farmhouse because you can't make any money. So but during one argument with Jim, she tells him that she cared more for Edwards little finger than she did of Jim's whole body. And reading Some of the stuff they say to each other to is hilarious, because it's the 1920s and so it's just so different. Like nowadays would just be like you're a big piece of shit and I don't you know. Like you would just say some real mean, mean things. But like like this is some, like like mind fuck stuff like that's like a Like it's that's like damage.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I care more about there's little finger and I do about your whole body.

Speaker 2:

That's like judge Judy she always tells people she's smarter, then you and whole person.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, like she's smarter in her little finger then Like they are yeah, then their whole entire body. So wow, pretty funny judge Judy's pretty bitchy too, I love her, me too, I Can you imagine if that was your mom fights like Can you imagine, can I, can you just pick?

Speaker 2:

just make sure that no, and they're all in their proper dress, because, like everybody dressed up back then yeah, yeah, simple, jim, I wonder if she called him out, I should be all, I guarantee she like you, simple, jim.

Speaker 3:

You bought me a farmhouse and I care more about his pinky finger than I do your whole body, it's penis, I mean pinky finger.

Speaker 2:

Well, she came in, went as she pleased, she did not care At all. Okay. So at this time Edward also begins visiting Eleanor at her home three to four times a week on the rules of like church business, but it always takes place in the middle of the day while Jim is at work, okay. And then every Friday when the church choir would rehearse, edward made sure that he was there because he had to oversee the choir. Now they Started going to shows together in New York. They took a few, like several day getaways together, like full-on. Don't care anymore, yeah, we're just in a relationship, wow, and we don't care Really what anyone says. But we're just, we're not saying we're together, we're just Because you know how church people are, you know how church ladies are. Yeah, they are nosy, they pay attention, they are watching. So you know that these people knew.

Speaker 3:

Oh, yeah, 110% they're the talk of the entire church.

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah the entire congregation knows oh for sure, yeah, especially because the entire congregation had already been sleeping with Eleanor.

Speaker 3:

True, they're like listen, dude, we got a piece of that too. Yeah, could have bought her a farm we would have. She's the hot. Yeah, I don't know like.

Speaker 2:

Congrats, all right, wow, so in 1922, edward is forced to take a three-week vacation with his wife, and While he's gone, both him and Eleanor write each other letters Like they just simply could not exist without each other. The separation further fueled their spark, making it very clear to them that they could never Be apart again. So this is when their plans started to get real, real, serious on how they were gonna make this Like work, so they could like finally be together once and for all.

Speaker 2:

Now some of their ideas were To run away to Germany or Japan. That way they could just start fresh, because no one would know them. I don't really know why Japan, germany, because they had their little.

Speaker 2:

German connection, but Japan, I have no idea. Okay, and sometimes they even spoke of divorce, an idea that Eleanor thought was very possible. The Edward did not, and this Differing of you caused a lot of contention in their relationship. Now, in early September 1922, some church business required that a group from St John's be sent up to Bound Brook to an Episcopal home for the aged. Now this type of stuff usually meant that Edward, his wife and then several like involved members of the church would go. Eleanor was generally one of those involved members. Of course she was. So this was one of the first trips that they were taking after his affair had begun to become like out in the open. Okay, so he is like Terrified. So the first part of the trip he is just like spent as like a nervous wreck because he is in this car, because, mind you like, it's not like a big, like you drive up and I'll drive up right.

Speaker 3:

I can not. People don't have, cars don't have cars. They all got a car oh together.

Speaker 2:

Okay, oh Shit everything awkward everything on the way up and during the visit like went Without a hitch, like super smooth. Edward's like okay, all right. So he starts to like on the way back, like starting to feel like he can relax, things going good. The women are all in a good mood, they're chit chatting and they start to exchange a few toasts. I don't know if they're just like in the car right home I don't think they're drinking. I think they're just like here's to. Whatever?

Speaker 3:

okay so Francis says seems like weird car etiquette, to me super weird.

Speaker 2:

But it's 1922. I have no idea sure. So Francis says, quote here's to our wives and sweethearts, mere sweethearts, beer wives, and our wives are sweethearts, oh Edward. So the car like goes silent, right, because I'm sure everyone in the cars like shit, I Know now is Francis with them. Yeah, that's what Francis said, oh Francis. Francis said here's to our wives and our sweethearts May our sweethearts beer wives. And our wives are sweethearts, oh shit. So then Eleanor speaks up and says I have a better one mere sweethearts and wives never meet.

Speaker 3:

Holy shit, I can make a picture in this car.

Speaker 2:

What Imagine being another woman in this car and being like yeah, I mean I would want to be another woman in the car just cuz I like, oh, I totally would.

Speaker 3:

I'd like, yeah, but I don't want to be in between them.

Speaker 2:

So right, yeah, I know, I mean, obviously they don't fight for anything.

Speaker 3:

This is gonna like be the flying squirrel, and I do have a feeling if they did fight, that, francis probably would win. It's just my like inkling, but they don't like just I can't even wrap my mind about this. You are having sex with somebody else's husband and you make that toast, yeah where you're like raisin bitch. Yeah, were you just like you kind of like this chick Because she's like I'm not like.

Speaker 2:

Toasting kind of thinking like well, and imagine too, cuz like yes, she has a shit ton of money, but she's like ugly right and I don't think it matters how much money you have. Like here's your husband sleeping with this younger woman. Yeah, who's pretty Like petite Francis is kind of not that, she's like she's not overweight or anything, but I think she was like a taller woman, not very like attractive, not really outgoing. You know, eleanor's got a beautiful singing voice and she's just like Well and it seems like okay.

Speaker 3:

So if he didn't marry her for love, right Seems like she pretty much loved her husband.

Speaker 2:

I mean I, yeah, I mean I think so love for him Right, because she had never.

Speaker 3:

Almost like she's holding on to hope that like that will end. Yeah, and he'll just be with her for sure, like you one would expect in your marriage. Yeah, wow, but can we just read that part one more time?

Speaker 2:

Oh, both sides, yeah, okay. So Francis says here's to our wives and sweethearts may our sweethearts be our wives and our wives are sweethearts. And Eleanor says I have a better one. May our sweethearts and wives never meet. Yeah, she's definitely got some like. She's got some bravery there, confidence in herself, I guess balls man giant. Holy shit.

Speaker 2:

Okay, now again on September 13th. So after this, edward and Francis do this annual like picnic and it's an in appreciation for People who work like hard within the church to like help out, and they do this like annual picnic. Apparently, it's not very many people, because the only ones that they're taking on this picnic are mini Clark, who's another lady in the congregation, and Eleanor Okay, so it's Edward, everyone else was like I wrote I.

Speaker 3:

I went on that last track. I am not signing up for this freaking picnic. Count me out.

Speaker 2:

So Edward and Francis are taking Eleanor and then mini Clark on a picnic in appreciation for all of their hard work within the church, all of your hard work. Yeah, you know that Francis was like that bitch doesn't do anything in this church but seeing like, what are you talking about?

Speaker 3:

I don't do anything about my husband yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, hard work with my husband. No, now mini, who herself is married, was also in competition with Eleanor for the attention of Reverend Edward Hall. He's not terrible looking, but it's like he's he first and foremost women ladies. He is married. Stop leave him alone. He is married. Wait, is that him? Yeah, and that's, is that? There's one? There's one picture when he's like younger, that one is like when he's older, right?

Speaker 2:

It looks like an oompa loompa yeah was the one where that picture, the side-by-side is that, um, I think that's Francis, that like side-by-side of, like the lead, the she's not like bad looking and that one down there, see that one, the one that that's like a drawing and it's down a little bit. This, yeah, and that's that's Eleanor. So in that pit that's a picture I was thinking of Francis is like ugly, no, and he's not terrible looking in that picture and the other picture is.

Speaker 2:

He's far less terrible looking in that one than he is in the other one, where he's like yeah that's a drawing.

Speaker 3:

I know when you see him look at that one, what the hell. Okay. It's like ladies, we can do better.

Speaker 2:

It's like um Chad debel. Okay, he is so ugly and look at him raking in the crazies. All right, yeah, okay, so this trip, or is pretty hot though. Yeah, especially like 1922 as well like she's, definitely like she's, she's up there.

Speaker 3:

But I don't think Francis is like hideous. No I was expecting much worse.

Speaker 2:

No, no, she's not like a, no, she's not terrible but he looks like An oompa oompa he looks like an either reverend it's like it's men in uniform Doesn't matter what the uniform is and he's like like chunky in the face and balding. How many times have you seen like a football player like he is so hot, and then you see him like out of uniform, like at a conference?

Speaker 2:

You're like oh, that oh, okay, well, never mind about that one. You know you put that uniform back on and yeah, so during this trip, I'll know fights broke out. They definitely had all of these women vying for his attention. Wow, and I like there's part of me that's like you did this shit on purpose, you know. You know, but like many wants you Eleanor's your side piece, francis is your wife. Like you want all of this attention from these women and you want to kind of watch them Bicker over you, like in their passive, aggressive sort of way.

Speaker 3:

Maybe he dips his dick in holy water and there's like a special blessing on it. Maybe I don't know what's happening, cuz.

Speaker 2:

I doubt it. He doesn't look like he's good in bed.

Speaker 3:

He's terrible looking, so okay, I don't get it.

Speaker 2:

Now at one point, because they're walking, they're like go over to like this lake right. So at one point, edward rips his pants while climbing over a fence and at once Francis runs over to him and begins like brushing the dirt off of her husband and Whips out this needle and thread to sew his pants. Like right there on the spot. And this had, like the other women fuming with jealousy, making their car great home, super, silent and super uncomfortable.

Speaker 3:

I can't even imagine like if I knew that Mario was having a full-blown affair and he like wasn't even hiding it and was like Just flaunting it, I First of all I'd make his life a living hell. Yeah, there's no way I'd be like tripping over myself to help him with anything, unless that that sewing kit that I brought was gonna like actually stab his penis actually so as dick to a pants.

Speaker 2:

Oh, sorry.

Speaker 3:

That's the only way I'm trying to help him at all. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Very different times, very different, very different times.

Speaker 3:

No in the morning. How many more options now? I?

Speaker 2:

feel so bad for a ladies back but oh yeah, absolutely no way. Now, in the morning of September 14th 1922, around 10 am, francis, her niece, and Edward return home after spending the morning together. Edward leaves shortly after arriving home for a meeting. When he receives a call at the house, it was Eleanor. Obviously he's not home, and so Eleanor tells Francis that she really needs to see Edward because she needs to explain something on her bill For her operation. So remember, he paid for her kidney operation.

Speaker 2:

So she's saying she's explained something to him from her bill. Francis takes a message and promises to forward it on to her husband that afternoon. Many, the same many from the thing. Okay brings a young relative over to Francis and Edwards home Because a girl was gonna take graduation pictures in their backyard, which was apparently really pretty. They were using her backyard to do that. They were there till about 4 30 to 4 45 at 545.

Speaker 2:

Jim finishes up at work but he has. He's like kind of he's doing something outside of the church. So he gets to the church like clean up, and there were some other workers there Doing a project and they ended up like leaving behind a big mess. So he then has to clean up their mess. So it takes him a little bit longer to get home and he gets home for dinner at about 6 15 and Eleanor is so pissed, like super pissed, because he's late, okay, and it's so like different back then because I can't even imagine being like you don't have a way to call, necessarily, right, and they didn't have a, they didn't have a phone in their house At Jim and Eleanor's house, okay. So just like such a weird time.

Speaker 2:

It is so weird or you just you can't get a hold of people. You have no idea.

Speaker 3:

It's like a simpler time that I wish we could go back to, but at the same time I'm like, oh, they're so hard think about when we were kids, like if you were gone from the house.

Speaker 2:

You just didn't have contact with people. Yeah, you know parents couldn't check up on me all the time. And it was just normal, and it wasn't it wasn't.

Speaker 3:

I'm like imagine letting no, can't go anywhere and not being able to keep track. No it's scary.

Speaker 2:

Now Eleanor and Jim getting a huge fight and after dinner, which I don't find this appropriate. But Eleanor sits outside with her daughter Charlotte and like kind of bitches to her about Her marriage and not her dad, eleanor, no, not cool.

Speaker 3:

So she's how old is Eleanor at this point? Charlotte or Charlotte, I mean, do we?

Speaker 2:

have any clue. She's probably like a teenager, because when Francis and Edward got married, I Think that was in 1911 and Charlotte was Five, okay, so she's probably like 15 or 16 now, that poor girl. Okay, now she starts telling Charlotte all about this article that she had read in the New York world about divorce, okay, and so she had cut this out of the paper, this article. That evening around seven she leaves and she takes that clipping of the article to the church and leaves it on Edward's desk and then gets home and only takes her about 15 minutes and then she leaves again and goes over to the candy store nearby to call Edward once again. So this time he was home and he's able to take her call.

Speaker 2:

During that call it seemed, maybe like he was kind of calming Eleanor. Francis didn't know who who's on the phone with. He can just hear. She can just hear him saying like yes, yes, yes, that is too bad. I was gonna go down to the church a little later. Can we not make arrangements for later, around quarter after eight, and then shortly thereafter Edward leaves his home. Eleanor goes home and sees that her children have left to go to their aunt's house, but she grabs her shawl and scarf and leaves. Now, jim did question her as she was heading out the door, but she didn't stop and just yelled back to him that if he wanted to know where she was going he could follow her.

Speaker 3:

Oh, oh, that seems like a terrible idea, right?

Speaker 2:

So Jim just kind of watches as she strides away and then he goes back. He's working on a home project and he just was like you know what, Like whatever.

Speaker 3:

Oh simple Jim. Yeah like whatever.

Speaker 2:

At that point. For me, though, I'd be like you know what. I don't give a shit like I don't give a shit what you're doing, like I know what you're doing, so just whatever. I don't want to know any more details. Yeah, so he continues working on this home project till about 945 that night, but neither Eleanor nor Edward were headed to the church. They were both headed out to Phillips farmhouse to meet. So back at the Hall House, francis puts her niece to bed around nine and then plays solitaire for two hours Until 11.

Speaker 3:

Okay, I love me some solitaire.

Speaker 2:

I have it on my phone, I could totally play solitaire for two hours.

Speaker 3:

I actually do have it on my phone, so I can't say anything about that, because I play this shit out of some solitaire and I used to play it with regular playing cards yeah all the time before we had these apps.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I actually downloaded it the other day and no one was like what are you playing? How do you play? Like he was so intrigued. Yeah, it's such a simple game and me and my dad used to play double solitaire all the time.

Speaker 2:

Yeah that's great, it's a great game. Yeah, it's great game, anyways now. So now it's 11 and she notices the time and she thought it was a little bit odd because while Edward does often return home late, it was almost never past 10 o'clock when you return home. So she decides to leave a light on for him and just goes to bed. Now Jim and Eleanor's children returned home around 10 30 that night. Jim puts them to bed, then went to the church to go look for his wife. He returns home at about 11 20 and just goes to bed because she's nowhere to be found as well. Now, at 2 am, jim wakes up and he Decides to go up to the attic and see if Eleanor has returned. But was pretty disappointed when he looked into Charlotte's room and Eleanor was not there. So, a little worried, he gets dressed and he heads back down to the church to look for his wife because he does have a key. The church was empty and so he locks up and returns home Just missing each other.

Speaker 2:

Francis had to gone to the church to search for her husband just after Jim, but she did not have a key. But the church was dark, so she and her brother was with her assumed that Edward was not there. So they did go and swing by the mills home to see if Edward was there, but the house was also dark and so they assumed that he wasn't there either and they just returned home. Now the next morning between 8, 30 and 9, jim Mills and Francis Hall ran into each other, both kind of wondering the same thing. Francis asked Jim if anyone at their house had been sick. Jim answers no, I think she was just asking that because, like her husband's, the Revrand and so like maybe people were sick, he'd been like Okay the thing, and so she's just trying to like come up with.

Speaker 2:

Like I was like where's this going?

Speaker 3:

Okay, that makes a reason right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, she's like my husband. Okay, jim responds that no, no one. No one is sick and that his wife hasn't been home either. And then he says to her what do you think it is an elopement? Francis, refusing to believe, like any such thing, just says no, it must be foul play. My husband has never stayed out all night. I'm gonna notify the police. Then Jim suggests that maybe the two had gone to Coney Island. Just think it's very like overnight, like very, um, random, like.

Speaker 3:

Coney Island is like the place to be, though, right, I guess, 10 o'clock at night and I have no idea.

Speaker 2:

Francis thought this was ridiculous and said I think. She said I think they are dead or they would have come home.

Speaker 3:

She's like listen, simple, jim, you're not helping this situation with your god damn idea. Ideas, come up with something better.

Speaker 2:

She's like you're an idiot, they're dead.

Speaker 3:

So they're not in Coney Island.

Speaker 2:

I would like to go. Um. So she calls the police, but weirdly, when she calls the police, she doesn't state that her husband's missing. She just asks them if there had been any casualties throughout the night and when they say no, she just hangs up. Okay, that's weird. That's weird. Right, like aren't you?

Speaker 3:

Have you had anybody die? Have you one been killed During the night, during the night? No, okay, sounds good. We're good, then. Everything's on the up and up, sounds great. Thanks, maybe they're hiding in Sony Island. Now that I've ruled out death.

Speaker 2:

So that day Jim ends up visiting Frances at her house three separate times to see if she had any news with the last time visiting her at 8 pm Damn.

Speaker 3:

So they're gone like all day Mm-hmm All night, and then all day, yeah, like so we're almost 24 hours.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's been about 24 hours now. Okay, but Frances just reiterates that they must be dead or they would have come home.

Speaker 3:

Okay, okay. I mean, who knows, she might be onto something.

Speaker 2:

She might be. So Edward Hall and Eleanor Mills remain missing for two days, until the morning of September 16th. Okay, a couple were walking hand in hand down Lovers Lane. This couple was Raymond Schneider, a man in his early 20s, and Pearl Bomber, who was 15. Pearl saw something and said to Raymond look, there's a girl and a fellow asleep. But he didn't look because he knew how things went down at Lovers Lane and he didn't want to invade into people's private business. So he was just like leave him alone, we got our own shit to do, like moving along. Okay, the two had out to do their business.

Speaker 2:

Once they're finished, they began retracing their steps out and when they passed the sleeping couple, again Pearl looks over and she was kind of surprised to see them laying in the exact same position as to when she had first seen them. So she went over to take a closer look and when she got there she yells back to Raymond that she didn't think the couple was breathing. Oh no. So Raymond heads over and once he sees them he's like let's go, we need to leave. And they head out. They run, but they do stop at the closest building to report what they had seen. A call goes immediately to the New Brunswick police and patrolman Edward Garrigan was sent out to investigate. Now, this I find so hilarious. So Garrigan leaves the station and hitches a ride from a local man who just happened to be passing by, because apparently they don't have cars, oh my gosh.

Speaker 2:

Nobody's like oh, I gotta go out there. Like you see some local guy, hey, could you give me a ride? Okay, what so? He picks him up and then stops and grabs two more policemen on the way to the scene. So then he like has become the police taxi. He has to run this guy around to pick up his colleagues, to go out to the scene.

Speaker 3:

That is the weirdest thing I've ever heard Like I don't even. You don't even think about these things in your mind until they happen in stories and then you're like holy shit, it really was like that weird of a time.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so bizarre. Because we just have cars and we just use them and our police have their own cars. They don't hitch rides from people. No, if you're ever driving somewhere and a policeman asks you to stop and give him a ride somewhere, don't do that.

Speaker 3:

Don't do that because he's probably going to kill you and he's probably not a police officer, a serial killer, and yeah, and pretending to be a cop, yeah, it's.

Speaker 2:

Ed. Kemper or he like is the worst police officer in the whole world Ever, so don't do it.

Speaker 2:

Just don't help people, no, just don't Sorry. Help from afar, yep. So when they arrive, they're in Somerset County and they're Lay Edward Hall and Eleanor Mills both dead and what looked like posed after death Shit. They had been placed next to each other on their backs, eleanor's head was resting on Edward's right arm. Their feet were pointed towards the trunk of a small crab apple tree, edward's face was covered with a Panama hat and Eleanor's left hand was resting on Edward's right knee and her scarf was covering her neck. Against Edward's left foot was. They called it his calling card, but it was like his business card that just said like he was Reverend.

Speaker 3:

Edward.

Speaker 2:

Hall. Papers were scattered all around the bodies that turned out to be love letters from Eleanor to Edward. Edward had one gunshot wound to the head and Eleanor had three Shit Under her scarf. Her neck had also been cut so deep that she was almost decapitated and her voice box was removed. Wow.

Speaker 2:

Now essentially from like the exact moment that they arrived on scene, these police began to just fuck this crime scene up just over and over. There was, literally within minutes, a reporter had shown up. The officers are allowing this reporter to like, look at the bodies, handle the evidence In the time it takes for a more experienced detective to get out there and his name was George Totten. Tens of curious onlookers had arrived. They were trampling the crime scene. They were passing around all the evidence. They were stripping the tree of bark for souvenirs. For souvenirs. Yes, they were taking the bark off the tree as a souvenir. Wow, okay.

Speaker 2:

Along with Doctor Detective Totten was Dr William H Long. He was the first medical person to look at the bodies and around 2 pm the Somerville undertaker, samuel Sutfin, came and removed the bodies. Now, once the bodies were at the morgue, a new Brunswick undertaker came and picked up. Edward then came the next day to retrieve Eleanor's body. So before Eleanor left the morgue, dr Long had showed up and examined the body himself. When examining her body, he opened up her abdomen and looked inside of her uterus and then sewed her back up.

Speaker 3:

Was she pregnant? No, oh.

Speaker 2:

Okay, I think that's what they were trying to check out, but whatever reason, now, once their bodies made their way to new Brunswick, the undertaker there also suggested that the families do funerals as soon as possible, because not only had the bodies been outside for at least 36 hours, but due to their extensive injuries, it made it so that the embalming process could not be completed. Damn, I'm sure back then it was a very different process than it is now. So they were getting real ripe, real quick. Yeah, now for some reason, francis' cousin Edward Carpenter, was in charge of funeral arrangements and he asked to have Edward's body officially identified. I don't really know why. That is Okay, but there was another man named Dr Cronk who was there and he identified Edward's remains. And also, like Dr Long, dr Cronk, when looking at Eleanor, opened her up and took a peek inside of her uterus and then sewed her back up. All of these dudes were like wonder, what's in her uterus?

Speaker 3:

They've got to be looking for pregnancy because there's not really like ultrasounds back then, right?

Speaker 2:

So two days later both Edward and Eleanor would be laid to rest. During Edward's funeral, francis leaned on her brother, who had come from Lavalette to be with his sister in her time of need. Now Francis were availed. Throughout the ceremony there were some eyewitnesses that noticed that there were scratches on Francis' face. Don't know if that came. So that was the fact that Francis was staying like pretty secluded. The second that she found out that her husband was murdered warranted a story in the next day's paper, because you know they're always looking for-.

Speaker 3:

Well, she looks like a pretty good suspect, right, she's got motive For sure, yeah, she's. Once they go missing, she's like automatically oh, they're dead, yeah, and then they go to the police.

Speaker 2:

Have you found anybody? But not saying that he's missing, just being like just so Just chicken have you found any dead?

Speaker 3:

bodies. Yet you found any bodies Because I left a couple over at the farm.

Speaker 2:

Just wondering if you've looked around the Phillips farm. I mean just never know. Yeah, so Yikes. So there's that, okay Now. Jim, on the other hand, couldn't stay secluded right, because he didn't have servants taking care of his like every need. He saw us to get up and he has to go to work every day, and everywhere he turns there's freaking hordes of people and reporters. Portions.

Speaker 2:

Like questioning him, trying to get, like a piece of you know something out of him. And more than that, the crime scene had been flooded by tourists. The tree now was no more than a remnant of itself, stripped completely of its bark. The ground around the tree had also been dug up. Oh my gosh, For souvenirs.

Speaker 3:

This is insane.

Speaker 2:

This is like kind of the beginning of like the whole-.

Speaker 3:

See, people have always loved true crime.

Speaker 2:

True crime like obsession. Like scandals I can't think of like what they call it, but like, because I told you guys, I can't think of words but like the true crime, like memorabilia, like buying stuff, wanting, like wanting a piece of that. A piece of all of it. This is kind of one of the big big like, first big ones like this.

Speaker 3:

I wonder if anybody still has the bark of the tree right, and if they've like, what do you pass that along in your will. Like the clump of dirt.

Speaker 2:

Like this is where this horrific murder took place. Or like a clump of dirt, like where do you keep that I don't know? In a box.

Speaker 3:

In a glass jar, like what exactly Next to your tonsils?

Speaker 2:

I don't know. Yeah, like why exactly? It's weird, it's super bizarre, really bizarre. Now people even broke into the Phillips farmhouse. They removed pretty much all of the interior decorations and the furniture Dang, so they like stripped everything they possibly could just to have a piece of this. Like big, scandalous murder. That's crazy Double murder. People came out to the crime scene with balloons, popcorn, peanuts, soft drinks. It literally looked like a circus more than a crime scene, that's terrible. Can you imagine? No. Having this horrific murder happen.

Speaker 3:

And those poor kids too, like knowing that their mom was just brutally murdered. Yeah, her voice box was removed.

Speaker 2:

Or even like if let's just say that we watched, like the news, right, and they're like, oh my God, like there's this murder. We found these two bodies in this house. There's like a group of people outside with balloons and popcorn and peanuts and soft drinks and like what is wrong it's happening.

Speaker 3:

Listen, we love to talk about murder, right, that's our thing, yeah, but there's no way I would stand on a crime scene. It's not like when I, when I hear these things especially if they're happening now like we're a little bit far removed from this one, right. Yeah, so we're looking for years ago thinking of it more in like a lighter light. A lighter light of making more light of the situation.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker 3:

Because, we're so far removed.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

But this was somebody's family.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, someone's mom, someone's brother, like if this happened.

Speaker 3:

now there's no way that I'd go to a crime scene. Like even when I hear about it on the news I'm like, oh my God, like this is terrible. Oh yeah, like this is so sad.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean I love poor kids. Yeah, like I love murder stuff, but stand out.

Speaker 3:

There was some popcorn and balloons like what's going to happen next?

Speaker 2:

Psychopath Like yeah, that's insane. So weird. Yeah, because I love murder. Like I see this stuff like on, you know, like when Mackenzie how do you say her last name, lou Louik Louik, when she went, was missing at first, right, and they were like putting a. I was like, oh my God, like this is awful. What is?

Speaker 2:

happening, yeah, Like you know. And then I'm like why did she go to a park in the middle of the night? Like not victim blaming, but just like girl, why, Like that's so scary, Like what did you do? You know like what happened? I just remember being like so, just like emotionally caught up, not like wanting to go to the park and like have some peanuts and popcorn and like, oh, what can happen next? Like it's such a weird, like so really odd.

Speaker 3:

But I think you have to kind of think back then there wasn't like a lot of media coverage.

Speaker 2:

No, there was no.

Speaker 3:

TV, so you're not getting the information. So the only way people are getting information is if they are there. Yeah, and it's very they're like acting like the media, trying to get a glimpse of anything.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and they think it's the hot story, yeah, and they think it's a lot more sensationalized. Yeah, like that, because we were more naive back then, absolutely, like it was just such a different time and so, yeah, I hope.

Speaker 2:

It was also reported that a new Brunswick carpenter was planning on leasing the farmhouse and turning it into a museum where he would charge 25 cents for admission. Dang, so it really had like turned into like a big circus. Now the investigation into the untimely deaths of Edward and Eleanor was a bit confusing in the beginning. The first few weeks there was constant confusion about who was really in charge Somerset Detective George Totten or the Middlesex County Prosecutor Joseph Stricker. The issue was that the bodies were found in Somerset County but both victims were from New Brunswick, which was in Middlesex County. Okay, but New Jersey State law is that wherever the crime happens is where the investigation lies. Okay, right, so that's who takes care of?

Speaker 3:

it. That's what I would assume too. Right, but it's not like you have like a lot of evidence to go on because you trampled the crime scene.

Speaker 2:

Well, and now it wasn't who the murderer was, but where it had taken place. So still a month after the murders, this was had not been established, because authorities claimed they had, without a doubt, proof that the murder did not take place where they were found. So although the bodies were found in Somerset County, they were also trying to be like well, what if they were killed in New Brunswick and then brought out here?

Speaker 3:

I think you should be able to tell from the crime scene. You should Even back then, if somebody shot in the head and their throat. They're literally almost decapitated and their voice box is removed. Yeah, there's going to be some blood. Yeah, if it happened for them.

Speaker 2:

Everyone took the ground.

Speaker 3:

There wouldn't be that much, but when they found the bodies they should have been able to tell that you would think.

Speaker 2:

But the second that like they found the bodies, they just let people like trample the crime scene. Damn Okay.

Speaker 2:

Um, yeah. So two men had also come forward claiming that they had evidence in the form of handkerchiefs that could prove definitively that the murders had taken place five miles away in the fields owned by the Carpenter family, who are relatives of Francis Hall. So this just further confused the investigation and before long the New Jersey State Police were called in. They were like we just need like a neutral party to come in and just take over because we need some help. Yeah, we don't know what's happening. Okay, so when this happened for calling somebody.

Speaker 2:

So when this happened, though, the county detectives like doubled down on their efforts, because they were like wait, what? What do you mean? We know what we're doing. So they begin reviewing all of their evidence and reexamining the witnesses that they had previously looked at. They interrogated Francis and her brother, willie, and while questioning Willie, they pushed pretty hard, because, like I said, people looked at him as like like mentally handicapped, and so they were hoping they could like crack him a little bit easier, because he wouldn't be able to like withstand the investigation. But, instead of confessing, they got a well put together story that never wavered, no matter how much they pressured him. They were just as forceful with Jim Mills, picking him up at all times of the day for questioning and keeping him for hours at a time, and only allowing him to leave when they said but fortunately, jim had an alibi. It held up, and eventually they had to like, just kind of let him be Okay.

Speaker 2:

So next up was Raymond Schneider. When they found Edwards body, his pocket watch and cash were missing. Police suspected Raymond of taking these and, being that he found the bodies, they thought maybe he might have more involvement than he was letting on. So they pick him up and interrogated him for over 36 hours, lying and telling him that his friend, clifford Hayes, who was with him the night of the murders, accused him. So finally, raymond relents and accuses Clifford Hayes of being the murderer. So here's the story that police put together from the testimony of Raymond, as well as Pearl, leon Kaufman and Clifford Hayes.

Speaker 2:

So on the night of September 14th, raymond met two of his friends, leon and Clifford, outside the Reveille Theater around 10 30 PM. Raymond was furious telling his friends that he had just seen Pearl with her drunk father, nick, and that Nick had a history of abusing Pearl. So Raymond was afraid for Pearl's safety and so the three boys headed out to go find them. When they caught up to Nick and Pearl, raymond took his coat off and began like threatening Nick, saying he was going to teach him a lesson. This was no small claim, as Nick was an extremely violent man who had a long, long record.

Speaker 2:

One of the more serious convictions he had was from 1917 when he was arrested for highway robbery. Now Nick knew Raymond and already didn't like him, and in fact Pearl's brother, henry Happy Bomber, had been arrested eight times in the last year, twice for beating up Raymond. Wow, so before they confronted not happy? No, he is not. And what wonder if that's why they call him that? I didn't even think about that. It's like when, like a you know tall guy's called shorty or whatever tiny yeah.

Speaker 2:

So, before they had approached Nick, clifford did show Raymond that he had a gun and told him that they were protected with this gun. Okay, nick was able to eventually scare the boys off and he continued walking along the street with his daughter, but the boys still followed behind them until they reached Becloo Park, which is the park on the way to the Phillips farmhouse. Okay, you kind of have to walk through in order to get there.

Speaker 2:

This is where they lost sight of him and after a search a little bit through the park, leon decides he's going to go home. But Clifford and Raymond wanted to keep searching. So they continue searching and then they reach the other side of the park. They decide to keep going and they head towards DeRussie Lane, which is where you turn to go down to the Phillips farmhouse. They searched around there until midnight when they eventually saw a couple on the ground, entwined with each other by the crab apple tree. Without saying a word, clifford pulled out his gun and shot four times into the darkness. Raymond went to investigate and found that Clifford had not shot Nick and Pearl, but two strangers. What Raymond yelled at Clifford about what he had done and took off, leaving Clifford to figure out what to do with the bodies.

Speaker 2:

Now, this is the story that was presented to the public on October 9th, a story that literally not one person believed. In the first article about this story in the New York Daily News, they included a box of questions not answered by the story. And here's the questions. Here's the other two freaking bodies who cut Mrs Mills throat after she had been shot and why? Who stole Pastor Hall's gold watch and why? Who carefully arranged the two bodies, laying them out as an undertaker would? And why? Who scattered about the love letters of Mrs Mills to Pastor Hall, making them a prominent feature of the murder layout? And why? What was the motive for seeking to kill Pearl Bomber, since she was supposed to be young Schneider's sweetheart, and Schneider says he witnessed the shooting? What became of the 32 caliber automatic with which Pastor Hall and Mrs Mills were murdered, according to the autopsy? What became of the ejected cartridges? Why did Schneider, if his story is true, then take Pearl Bomber with him to go and find these bodies?

Speaker 2:

Okay, so the people of New Brunswick were pretty much tired of this what they believed to be a shit show of an investigation, and decided to take matters into their own hands. So one day, as Frank F Kirby, the detective that the public believed made Raymond accuse his friend, was getting off the train and heading to the courthouse, a mob of people began following behind him and it grew as they like continued like walking down the street. He has this like mob of people just following him. When he gets to the courthouse he goes to enter and they block him from going in and seeing like all these people. He kind of gets scared and he turns and starts running back towards the train station. And at this time the mob starts screaming insults at him and they begin throwing rocks, stones and bricks at him, chasing him to the train station. He makes it there unharmed, thankfully, and hides in a baggage room until the entire New Brunswick police department had to show up to remove him. Shit Now.

Speaker 2:

There were also people protesting against the arrest of Clifford Hayes, though their protest was in a much less violent manner and a man had even organized what he called the Justice Fund, where he sold tags with Hayes name on it and a quote that said the truth in one's heart does not fear the lie on another's tongue. Now, from a picture, a picture I had seen in this article I was reading, because it doesn't ever say it looks like Clifford Hayes was a young black man. So in the 1920s, like obviously it was a rougher time for black community, right, but he was really highly thought of within the community and if the police were going to find a scapegoat, raymond Schneider was much more their fit. Raymond really was like he was a good student, he was, you know, good like in the community. He was always helping people out. He was just like a well put together kid from a good family that people really liked. Raymond was no, that was Clifford.

Speaker 3:

Sorry, yeah, that was Clifford so Clifford so Clifford so Raymond that doesn't sound like a good scapegoat.

Speaker 2:

Raymond at this point is either 21 or 23, depending on where you read. He's been married for three years to some other woman, but he's been separated from his wife for most of their marriage. His wife's name is Edna and she lives in a different town and since Raymond had been in New Brunswick, all he had really done is pursued Pearl Bowman. Pearl admitted to having relations at 15 with a much older and married Raymond for the past year and a half, so really when she was like 13, potentially.

Speaker 2:

That's sick, gross, huh. So she also stated that her father had been sleeping with her for the past year. So Nick was a bootlegger and a crook and he had been arrested at this point for allegations of incest. Nick's a piece of shit. Yeah, he really is. Really is a piece of shit. But then Pearl was also thrown in jail for incorrigibility. Incorrigibility yeah essentially just like sleeping around, I guess. Yes, you know. Okay, at 15 it's so crazy to me to think like she's a child.

Speaker 3:

She can't consent to that Right.

Speaker 2:

But you're throwing her in jail for sleeping. It really was a different time, so different, damn. Yeah, okay, but three days after Hayes had been arrested he was set free when Raymond admitted to lying and withdrew his accusation with a signed statement. So thankfully, he gets freed Now. This attempt to settle the Hall's mill Hall mill's murder without upsetting any prominent citizens had backfired, and now the authorities were forced to look at their only suspect left, a person who had been a suspect the whole time, but because of her money, her influence, her personality and her sex had been almost untouchable. Now they had no other choice, and the people wanted the case solved, so they turned their sights to none other than Francis Hall.

Speaker 3:

Which should have been like a no-brainer from the beginning.

Speaker 2:

It was, but she has money and she's a chick and she's a woman and she has money. It's been a thing from the dawn of time. Okay, so from the moment of Edward's death, francis took measures to insulate herself from the public, using her servants to do what she needed outside of the home. In addition to the normal family lawyer, francis also hired Mr Timothy N Pfeiffer to represent her in any facet of the Hall mill's case. She stated that she had hired him to help investigate the case and help find the murderer, and he was a former district attorney of New York State who had experienced in criminal cases. But really he was there to be like her PR person make sure she was represented well in the media, make sure she was treated respectfully by police and then defend her if there were any judicial proceedings.

Speaker 2:

Okay, now, periodically, francis would release statements insisting that her marriage was a perfectly happy one and that she did not believe that there was anything going on between her husband and Eleanor. She said the murder was motivated by the $50 in his pocket and the gold watch he was wearing. Now, $50 back then was just under $1,000 today, damn, just walking around with like a thousand bucks in his pocket. Now she was releasing these statements, despite the fact that the newspapers were also releasing the love letters between Edward and Eleanor that obviously showed that they were having a relationship. But she keeps releasing things that are like my marriage was just fine, we were perfectly happy. I don't know what you're talking about.

Speaker 3:

I'm sure you got to try and save face at that point. Yes. Even if you didn't kill them, right? You probably are just embarrassed by everything, even though the whole. Yeah, it's so public, everybody already knows. Yeah, well, we kind of talked about this.

Speaker 2:

earlier we were talking about having like a shit relationship in the public. Yeah, it would be so terrible. And you're like a prominent figure in. You know like towns back then were not big. No, you're like the prominent lady in the community.

Speaker 3:

And your husband is like in the church, like he's the pastor. Yeah, so back then, like I mean, come on, everybody already knows, francis, that they're having an affair. Yep, so I get it, but I get it. If I were in her shoes, I'd probably be like I don't know what you're talking about.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it would be, even if I didn't kill him Right, it would be so hard, yeah, because you listen?

Speaker 3:

I'm grieving my husband. I don't want to think about him and his mistress, right and I absolutely like.

Speaker 2:

I think she knew that he was having an affair, but I don't think she wanted to say it out loud. Yeah, I don't think she just don't think she wanted to like, because then it's really real yeah, yeah, absolutely. On October 18th. Jim Mills does comment that quote Miss Hall had better get a new pair of glasses. He was like they were fukin and you need to just stop. Take off your rose colored glasses and put on some real ones. Yeah, it's like come on, this is happening.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, everybody knew it. He bought her a farmhouse for health sakes, right?

Speaker 2:

So, just so they could go and have sex together. I can't, I can't, okay, yeah. So Timothy Pfeiffer asked that the investigation be handed over to what he called a quote fearless officer of the state who will not be subject to county limitations, political entanglements or petty disputes between rival detective forces, but who will be one who will be of one mind and determination to establish the truth and to bring the guilty to speedy justice. Now, this seems strange, as his client was the only one who had political influence or the ability to scare the county authorities from their duty. But they thought maybe it was a strategy. One of the thoughts was that if it looked as though Francis wanted this to happen and be turned over to someone more like neutral, that it would turn the focus away from her, because why would she do that if she were the guilty party Right Now?

Speaker 2:

In the morning of October 23rd 1922, justice Parker of the New Jersey Supreme Court took the case out of the county prosecutor's hands and gave it to Wilbur A Mock, the prosecutor of Essex County. He was an experienced prosecutor and in his 60s, the first reporter that got a hold of him after he was appointed got nothing but neutral comments and a promise to hold daily press conferences once he began his work. One of his first moves was to listen to a woman who had been desperately trying to be heard by police since the very beginning. She claimed that she was an eyewitness and could identify the killers. Her name was Jane Gibson. When Mock took over, he reviewed the case and then asked Mrs Gibson to come in and tell her story. Jane was a 50-year-old woman who lived on a nearby farm close to where Edward and Eleanor were discovered. She lived with her 21-year-old son, who helped her raise crops, and her 48 pigs 48 pigs.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

All right.

Speaker 2:

Her past was very vague and varied. She may have been born in Kentucky, she may have graduated from a seminary or a college in the South and she also may have been part of a circus that traveled the world. She said her husband, mr Gibson, had died 17 years earlier, but she was technically married. She didn't say this, but they found out. Technically she was actually married to a Mr William H Easton, who was a toolmaker in New Brunswick. Okay, and when they asked her about like what's this, she was like oh, okay, actually, the previous owner of the farm's name was Gibson and it was just easier to go by that name. Okay, in the media and in the court system she was known as either Mrs Gibson or just the pig woman.

Speaker 3:

Oh, Sad huh. Come on Simple Jim and the pig woman. This is so mean.

Speaker 2:

Okay. The story told about the murder was even more fantastic than that of her personal life. She stated on September 14th she was alerted to an intruder on her farm. She thought it might be quote foreigners. She had this thing with foreigners.

Speaker 3:

How was she alerted? First of all, I have no idea. I didn't say Did your pig?

Speaker 2:

squeal or something. She thought foreigners were out there stealing her crops. Okay, so she saddled up her favorite mule, jenny, and headed out this whole story. So she's out chasing these foreigners in her field. Okay, she loses sight of them and decides to outflank whoever it was by cutting through the old Phillips farm. Okay, and that's when she heard voices.

Speaker 2:

So she slows her mule and she can tell it's a man and a woman arguing. This was about between 9 and 10 pm, she said. The argument went from a heeded disagreement to yelling and then was overshadowed by the deafening sound of foregun shots. She stated that she saw a man fall first and then a woman. At just that exact moment, a car turned down the lane and in the light of the car she saw a gray polo coat and a man with bushy hair and negroid features. Okay, remember it was 1922? Those are her words, not mine. Just leave it at that. Please don't come at us. No, while she stated that she was calm, this spooked her mule, which turned running back towards the farm and, in Cinderella fashion, jane lost a single shoe during the exit. Okay, so sometime later I don't know how it says sometime later, she realized she had lost a shoe. I don't know if it's like how do you not?

Speaker 2:

realize you just lost a shoe Three hours later and she's like, oh my god, I'm missing a shoe. Where's my shoe? So she went back out to find it. I didn't even notice that on the back of my mule Right, jenny.

Speaker 3:

Lop and throw my pink shit. Yeah, like what.

Speaker 2:

What. She was back in the spot where she had heard the gunshots when she saw a quote large white-haired woman weeping over the bodies.

Speaker 3:

This was a story of a bushy-haired man and a large white-haired woman.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Yep, these are the two, well, two of the people she saw out there. Oh, okay.

Speaker 3:

What's her name again, jane?

Speaker 2:

Gibson or the pig woman oh yeah, the pig woman. So this is a story that Detective Totten at the time had refused to take, but one that mop based his entire case against Francis Hall and her brothers, william Stevens and Henry Stevens. On November 20th 1922, he presented this to a Somerset grand jury at 9 30 am. When entering the court, the Stevens and Francis were worried worried but confident. And when asked how she felt about her chances, francis stated quote doesn't a person's past count for anything? I've been something of a figure in this community. I have been honest and honorable. Why should I not be believed?

Speaker 2:

Henry's wife stated quote it wouldn't worry me a minute if Henry were arrested. In fact we would welcome it because his arrest would mean his eventual elimination from the case. And even Eleanor's sister agreed, stating, quote if they should arrest Mrs Hall, she would never have to worry. My sister tried to steal her husband. Mrs Hall was treated very shabbily. Even Eleanor's sister is like a girl. She was out there still in her husband and so she was like on Francis's side. What, yeah?

Speaker 3:

Crazy. I like don't even know what to say. Yeah, her sister is like listen, listen, I had a din. The same girl. Yeah, what? Yeah, this girl just murdered your sister Potentially. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I mean, yeah, was Eleanor doing the right thing? No, absolutely not. Should she be murdered for it? No, no, no, it's not, it's not Okay.

Speaker 3:

No man is worth another person's life.

Speaker 2:

No, you can't murder people just because you've decided you don't like how they're living their life. No, this is not how that works. Okay.

Speaker 2:

Now the Stevens, and the Stevens brothers and Francis had a much better chance of getting out of any punishment due solely to their wealth, and this was shown by their treatment in comparison to previously arrested suspects, ie Clifford Hayes Okay, who was not treated well when he was arrested, and nor neither was Raymond Schneider, to be quite honest. So Wilbur Mott and his team of investigators came into the grand jury with a little less confidence, as they were asking for Francis Hall to be indicted, even though they did not believe she shot anyone. Stating quote a crime committed under such circumstances becomes a joint act, in which the perpetrator and the accomplice are equally guilty, and although they believed both Stevens brothers to have been there and that one of them shot the victims, they focused their case on Francis because she had the strongest motive and the most direct and circumstantial evidence against her.

Speaker 3:

Well, and because women probably didn't even know how to shoot.

Speaker 2:

Right yeah. So couldn't have been her lady, her tiny lady hands wouldn't have been able to do that yeah.

Speaker 3:

You couldn't even probably hold the gun. It's much too powerful, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Now, the grand jury proceedings were also a carnival. A massive crowd formed outside the courthouse mostly because of the former circus performer Jane Gibson, and her claim to quote tell on the stand what I know I have not disclosed. All wait and see. Murder will out. Okay, come on, she's not helping herself, have you?

Speaker 3:

even take her seriously at all.

Speaker 2:

No Now in the courthouse they were keeping the proceedings private and had to even cover windows with black cloth because outsiders kept trying to like peek in all the windows. The pre proceedings went on for eight days and on day two of the trial, a letter signed by 76 New Brunswick women was published in the Daily Home News that expressed their unwavering faith in Francis due to her ideals of Christian character. So they were like there's no way this woman could have done this, because she is a good Christian lady and we just have faith that she did not, yeah, that just doesn't happen.

Speaker 2:

On the final day, francis attended court, thinking she may be called to testify. She sat outside the court room while Jane Gibson gave her testimony of that night and at 435, the grand jury announced their decision. Quote for reasons which to them seem sufficient and controlling, the grand jury takes no action on the hall mill's murder case. They take no action, yeah, because they were just trying to indict her. So they were just, they were just doing a grand jury trial to see if she could even be in, if there was. Like it's almost like a preliminary hearing now, right, where you just make sure there's enough evidence to convict. Okay.

Speaker 2:

Francis showed no emotion unless the courthouse, clad in all black with her head high, jim Mills stated quote I suppose they will never do anything now, but there is a higher judge. The thing was quashed. Everybody in town at least 90% of them know it was the hall money that quashed it. On November 29th the New York Daily News released a headline that said quote Hall jury fails to indict and quote suspicion lifts from the widow. As the case becomes uns, becomes an unsolved mystery.

Speaker 2:

Two months after the trial, francis boarded a transatlantic ship and left the country, headed to Europe. Her brothers also left, henry back to his home in Lavalette and Willie to Florida. Francis did not return until the spring of 1924, but less than a year later she once again left the country after a rumor surface that she had married some Cornell professor. She again returned home in April of 1925 and then stayed and tell her, I'm assuming, until she died. Jim continued to live and work in New Brunswick and, without the luxury of leaving, stayed an active target of the investigation. The Hall Mills murder, once a huge media circus, eventually died down and began to become one of memory. That was until July 3rd 1926.

Speaker 2:

So four years later when a man named Arthur S Rill filed a petition for an annulment. Arthur was looking to leave his marriage to Louise Geist Rill, who in 1922 had been one of the two Hall family servants. In part of his annulment petition he claimed that his wife knew much more about the Hall Mills case than she ever told the police or the grand jury and that her former employer paid her $5,000 to keep quiet.

Speaker 2:

$5,000 and back then is equivalent to over $91,000 today. Now Philip Payne, who is a managing editor of the New York Mirror, immediately demanded that the case be reopened and that Francis be the focus. The urgent headline became too much for the New Jersey governor to resist and Payne was credited with reopening the case. So this like managing editor of a paper just put these headlines in there and is like you need to do this and it's like too much media. So the governor's like okay, guess I need to, I'll cave right.

Speaker 2:

So at midnight on July 28th 1926, police arrested Francis Hall, once again on two counts of murder for Edward and Eleanor. She was taken to the Somerset County Jail where she spent two days. In those two days she put together an ever-growing team of attorneys and was released on $15,000 bail. Damn, that is equivalent to $260,000 now, okay. So in the next three months Willie and Henry Stevens were also arrested, as well as the Hall's neighbor and cousin Henry Carpenter. They all had the most prominent lawyers representing them, which would eventually be dubbed either the quote million dollar defense or sometimes the billion dollar defense.

Speaker 2:

This time around, the grand jury had no qualms in inditing the Stevens Hall clan and a trial date was set for November 3rd 1926. As the trial date came closer, all hotel rooms in town were booked, restaurants stocked up on food and drinks, refreshment stands filled the main street. Damn. The courthouse, which normally held 275, was increased to 375, which I don't know what that means. They were just like we found some more space for a hundred new people or a hundred of those spots were reserved for reporters, as they expected.

Speaker 2:

Over 300 reporters from around the world, damn. But the rest of them had to just like hang out outside. So finally, the day before the trial begins, they move the 129 position switchboard that had just been used to report the Dempsey-Tunney heavyweight championship fight to the basement of the courthouse and hired 28 experienced operators to relay messages from reporters to the newspaper central offices. Shit. The first quote live broadcast of a trial happened where a New York radio station placed a microphone in a nearby building. Then they hired men who would run back and forth between the courtroom and the microphone relaying the news of what was going on. Stop, 1926. 1926. And it's not even like they didn't even put the microphone in the courthouse, they put it in a nearby building. So these guys had to like run from the courthouse to this other building, like oh, it's what, this is what's happening. And then that's crazy. And I'm guessing there were several of them, so I could just like rotate, like you know, someone's always running in to tell. But like, how weird, how funny is that?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that's a live broadcast.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, okay just interesting how they did it. As the trial began, mrs Gibson wasa prosecution star witness and she opened the courtroom proceedings by fainting. Okay. Okay, you know this trial's gonna get good. Then the next day she collapses when she sees that her mother is in attendance. She must not have had a good relationship with her mom, I have no idea, but apparently it was a thing or it's like shame on our household. Then the next day so this is the third day of the trial the prosecutor announced that Mrs Gibson was in fact dying and asked the court move to the hospital to take her testimony. Okay, now the judges actually took this into consideration. They even visited the hospital to check on her condition, but once they did this, they denied her request and required that she be in court if she wanted to be heard Now, while some of her actions Was she really dying.

Speaker 2:

So while some of her actions may not, may absolutely 110% were for dramatic effect, she was ill. She did have a really high fever and a fast pulse. So when she finally did testify, she testified in the courtroom from a gernie with a nurse and a doctor in attendance. Oh, this lady is extra, she's extra, 100%.

Speaker 3:

What is happening?

Speaker 2:

Damon Runyon reported from the courtroom quote it was an unreal, creepy sort of business. Perhaps you can imagine attending a wake and having the dead suddenly begin talking in an out-of-grave sort of voice. After her testimony and she was being willed out of the courtroom, mrs Gibson rose to her elbows and pointed a finger at the defendants and said, quote I have told the truth. So help me, god. And you know, I've told the truth.

Speaker 3:

Dang Like, that's like her mic drop moment Right.

Speaker 2:

In the final week of the trial, the prosecutor, alexander Simpson, became more and more sure that he was gonna lose his case, and he moved for a mistrial on the grounds that jurors were sleeping during evidence, receiving calls and visitors without official witness and openly boasting their bias against the prosecution. One juror had even referred to Simpson publicly as, quote a goddamn lying little son of a bitch. So, once again, though, it seems like politics would win over this case, and the judge denied his motion for a mistrial, and the jury returned with verdicts of not guilty for all accused. To this day, this case is unsolved, but I think it was cursed from the jump. Nothing was ever handled with care, and we all know that money talks as well as your religious character, especially in the 1920s. That is it.

Speaker 2:

That is, that no one was ever held accountable for this and at the end of the day, though they're like, isn't a ton of evidence on anybody except for that, like Eleanor Ert, francis definitely had motive and she had more opportunity. I think she didn't have kids, she didn't have a job, she had money, she had all of the things that you know. She could have her brothers do it.

Speaker 3:

Okay. So she was shot? How many times? Three times.

Speaker 2:

So that's the thing is. Edward was only shot once. Eleanor was shot three times in the head, almost decapitated, and her voice box was removed so it seemed and the only love letters that were scattered around the body were the love letters from Eleanor to Edward.

Speaker 3:

It was Francis, so this one's Eleanor.

Speaker 2:

Oh, that one's Eleanor. Yeah, is that the one that we thought?

Speaker 3:

was cuter.

Speaker 2:

Well, is that her too, though? No, are we sure, man? It's hard to tell because the pictures and drawings are so old.

Speaker 3:

I know, maybe it is, but yeah, it's definitely like.

Speaker 2:

It's definitely a hate crime against Eleanor more than Edward.

Speaker 3:

Edward.

Speaker 2:

And this is.

Speaker 3:

Her tongue was cut out.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, some of the sources said her tongue and her voice box were removed. Wow yeah.

Speaker 3:

So when this started I thought it might have gone the other way. I thought Eleanor was gonna be the murderer, uh-huh, so that she could have her man. Yeah, no, because it's like, well, divorce wasn't a thing. Yeah, so if I want to move on, I gotta take out the wife. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

No Wow.

Speaker 3:

All right, it was. I mean, that's like super violent.

Speaker 2:

Uh-huh, yeah, that's what like, because it's obviously Eleanor that they were really pissed off at.

Speaker 3:

Right.

Speaker 2:

Edward was shot once there was a hat placed over his head. Yeah, like it was very like almost respectful for him.

Speaker 3:

And they positioned her in a way that his hand was on his thigh, yeah, which is like kind of risque too, yeah, right, yeah for sure Kind of sexual.

Speaker 2:

Uh-huh, she's laying like in his arms, touching his leg.

Speaker 3:

Like makes her be the I don't know. Yeah, more of like the sexual one or have the sexual prowess like she seduced him.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and there's no love letters of him to her, it's just all of the love letters Eleanor wrote to Edward, like potentially Francis may have found those Wow, in the house or something and then took that shit to the crime scene. And yeah, so interesting, super interesting.

Speaker 3:

See, we're just. We're not made to be like multiple partner people.

Speaker 2:

No, and those people that say that we're not made to be monogamous.

Speaker 3:

I think jealousy is like a big, big emotion for most people.

Speaker 2:

It's a huge emotion. Especially women, yeah, and I mean I think men too, absolutely.

Speaker 3:

They try to.

Speaker 2:

They try to kind of mask it a little bit more. But there are men get hurt. I mean, when I was in the dating field there was lots of men who were really hurt by their partners. Yeah, like a lot more. Even in my relationship now. Like I feel like when I met Cody, like I was and I had been like his divorce had been final Like they had, they were farther in their separation and divorce, yeah, by quite a bit than I was and I think like he was holding onto a lot more like emotion than I was. Like I think men are a little bit more emotional about that kind of stuff than they like to admit.

Speaker 3:

I don't like to yeah.

Speaker 2:

You know they don't want to like be vulnerable that way, but it's, it's a tough thing, it's, it's just not. Yeah, it's not good. It's never good. No, it's just not. Does not make for for happy people, so poor.

Speaker 3:

Eleanor and Edward. I guess the moral of this story is if you're gonna have an affair, one just don't have an affair? Yeah, let's just not do that If you don't like your spouse anymore, just divorce them and move on. Yeah, or do it in a respectful way. But if you're gonna have an affair, one, don't do it in public. Two, don't go on day trips together.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, don't have an affair with your best friend's boyfriend like someone that I might know, now, like you know, if you're gonna like, if, if I like, I'm, I'm a hundred and a million percent like it. Very against affairs, I think it's like the lowest thing you can do, but could you not do it so close to home, right?

Speaker 3:

Like there's a billion people on this planet, you can't find some shit. That's like someone who's not connected to you.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you can't just like step outside the box a little bit. You know someone that's no. Yeah. So let's just not guys like it's okay. Number one it's kind of okay to be alone if you're unhappy in your relationship, like you don't have to be in a relationship with anybody like work on yourself yeah. Maybe try like taking a break and just being with yourself. Yeah, because you might find out that you might be part of the problem.

Speaker 3:

But truthfully, like just don't have affairs.

Speaker 2:

No.

Speaker 3:

Because, no, literally, people are jealous and we'd be getting crazier and crazier. Oh yeah, and crazier as the years go on and people just snap Things make you there's a whole TV show Really Smapped. Just don't do it Don't do it. Be a decent human.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, be kind, be loving, don't sleep around, and if you do, get cheated on.

Speaker 3:

Please don't kill people.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I get. I get the emotion Right Like yeah, they made a mistake.

Speaker 3:

They shouldn't have been doing that. Yeah, but that doesn't give you the right to shoot somebody, no, and cut out their voice box and or tongue.

Speaker 2:

No, I get the emotion, like I understand. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Like in the end of my marriage I'm not gonna you know, because my ex and I are like very good friends but like the end of my marriage, like, I felt very like slighted. I felt very like, you know, very like blindsided by some things and it was really hard and hurtful. And there may have been a few times where I was like, oh, I'd like to do some things here. Oh, then I still have those. But then I hone in the crazy and I'm like but that's not like, we just don't behave like that, megan hones in her crazy way better than I hone in my crazy.

Speaker 2:

Let's not do that because you know you can't take it back once you do it.

Speaker 3:

No, you can't.

Speaker 2:

Murder was never one of those things I thought about doing.

Speaker 3:

No, that's extra we don't take it that far. We're not, that's pig woman level.

Speaker 2:

Let's not get there. Let's not do that, because she may have witnessed some shit like she really may have. And honestly. So when you see a picture of Willie, there is some speculation that he may have been mixed race, which was like very hush hush back then because it wouldn't have been the same parentage. Okay, so he does have like kind of bushy, curly hair and like a big mustache. And there's one picture I was like, oh, maybe he is like mixed race.

Speaker 3:

What was his last?

Speaker 2:

name Stevens. Like. V, no with a V, stevens with a V Okay. But you know, so she may have like her description where she said like the bushy hair and the features that she talked about could have potentially been him. So she might have been telling the truth, but she was also a little, I think, off her rocker, this guy no.

Speaker 3:

William George Stevens. Let's see I'm like. All of the William Stevens that I'm pulling up are white as white I might have it might be in the one I type in Willie Stevens, they're not white, but it might. If you type in Willie Stevens 1920s, it might actually be in this. That's what I typed in.

Speaker 2:

It might actually be in this thing that I was reading.

Speaker 3:

Alright, you'll have to show me later, but yeah.

Speaker 2:

But it's always she could have been, you know, she may have been telling the truth, but I just never know. Sad story. Yeah, it's really sad, that's him.

Speaker 3:

It looks kind of like, yeah, like a mixed race over Einstein.

Speaker 2:

a little bit he does kind of, yeah, so he's got like you know, like kind of maybe coarser, thick hair and like a big bushy mustache. So could it like she definitely could have seen this, she could have been witness to it, but she like did a lot of extra stuff in the trial that like I don't think made her see incredible.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. When you're that extra, people aren't going to like believe you. No, I don't believe people. When they're extra, no, you're like yeah.

Speaker 2:

Stop. You're like doing too much and you're like come to the trial. Stop it. I haven't told all like stop doing that.

Speaker 3:

Like you're literally trying to be a circus person.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, stop doing that, like, just be like. Yeah, I did witness this. It was terrible. I want the people to be brought to justice.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, end of story. Here's my testimony. It's not going to take me a full week and hospital from a hospital bed and yeah, bringing in a gurney and a doctor, because I have a fast pulse, because I'm a little tacky.

Speaker 2:

Maybe it's from being so extra.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, you probably did that to yourself, lady. Yeah. Anyway well, that was a good one.

Speaker 2:

Thanks.

Speaker 3:

Welcome.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, welcome to the new year. Two cases in and nothing too crazy yet. So our next one? I don't know, last one wasn't too bad.

Speaker 3:

Our next one this lady is extra too. Okay, it's not like terrible, terrible. I mean there's murder, okay, but it's also about a woman and a husband. Sweet, not in the 1920s, but she be crazy, okay.

Speaker 2:

Crazy yeah and then you guys will have our collaboration at the beginning of next month, so stay tuned for that and stick around, and we'll probably have some stuff for our top tier patreons to see. We'll probably have some like footage and outtakes or whatever from that, and so, yeah, stick with us. Yeah, thanks for this was a little bit longer, but I hope you enjoyed it.

Speaker 3:

You know, if you want to get in on all of that before, like all of the whatever you just said, the extra content.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I couldn't think of the words for a second Go sign up for our Patreon. Yeah, go check it out and get some extra content. We got three tiers, one you.

Speaker 3:

It's just basically donating you don't get anything yeah. It's two dollars, not too much, and then two of the tiers. You get the free or the bonus episode once a month and then our top tier gets all of our bonus content.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, extra pictures, extra, extra, extra stuff that we do. They got to read our letter to Ed Kemper. Yeah. They like get just extra, extra stuff that we do. It was the top tier, the one, that only one that got your wrapping. Oh yeah, they got to hear my wrap, uh huh, once these wrap takes. So go check it out if you want some extra content. Do we appreciate?

Speaker 3:

it, do it, do it. So, due to it being such a long episode, we're going to skip our soul cleanse today. Yeah, hopefully we love you. We just brought you up with our glorious personalities. Yeah, be kind, be loving, and we love you. Yep, go follow us on all of the things. Give us some five star reviews, please. Yes, and if you have negative comments, just keep them to yourself.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, just just leave the five star review and leave the other stuff to yourself.

Speaker 3:

Thank you, amen, and remember to keep listening if you want in on the sin. Bye guys.

Sister Wives and Everyday Life
Illnesses and Exposure to Germs
Attack on Las Vegas Judge
(Cont.) Attack on Las Vegas Judge
1900s Scandalous Love Affair
Surprising Farmhouse Purchase and Scandalous Affairs
Edward and Eleanor's Affair and Future
Unusual Night Raises Concerns
Mysterious Disappearance and Murders
Investigation Into Murders and Conflicting Testimonies
Murder Investigation and Eyewitness Testimony
Hall Mills Murder Trial and Reopening
Affairs, Jealousy, and Crazy Behavior
Skip Soul Cleanse, Appreciate, Request Reviews