As we navigate the complexities of human nature and the sometimes dark side of relationships, Megan and I, Lindsay, are here to share a journey through the lives of those caught in the web of love, ambition, and deceit. This week on Sinners Among Saints, we bring to light either the harrowing story of Lisa Northon or the cold blooded murder of her husband. From the allure of a Hawaiian paradise and a career born out of passion to a labyrinth of lies and a fateful end, Lisa's life is a testament to the unpredictable twists of fate and the hidden secrets that can drive a person to the edge.
In the heart of our discussion lies the tragic unraveling of a relationship that ends in death, under suspicious and chilling circumstances. We examine the conflicting testimonies, the questionable claims of self-defense, and the incriminating digital breadcrumbs left behind. This episode sheds light on the darker facets of love and the life-altering decisions made in its shadow, reminding us all that the truth is often stranger and more intricate than fiction. Join us as we step into these lives, dissect their choices, and offer insights into the human condition that might just leave you questioning everything you thought you knew about the pursuit of happiness and the cost of deception.
Thanks for all the support!! Please follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Tik Tok, or email us, and remember we now have a Patreon!!
patreon.com/sinnersamongsaintspodcast
sinnersamongsaintspodcast@gmail.com
Tik Tok @sinnersamongsaints
As we navigate the complexities of human nature and the sometimes dark side of relationships, Megan and I, Lindsay, are here to share a journey through the lives of those caught in the web of love, ambition, and deceit. This week on Sinners Among Saints, we bring to light either the harrowing story of Lisa Northon or the cold blooded murder of her husband. From the allure of a Hawaiian paradise and a career born out of passion to a labyrinth of lies and a fateful end, Lisa's life is a testament to the unpredictable twists of fate and the hidden secrets that can drive a person to the edge.
In the heart of our discussion lies the tragic unraveling of a relationship that ends in death, under suspicious and chilling circumstances. We examine the conflicting testimonies, the questionable claims of self-defense, and the incriminating digital breadcrumbs left behind. This episode sheds light on the darker facets of love and the life-altering decisions made in its shadow, reminding us all that the truth is often stranger and more intricate than fiction. Join us as we step into these lives, dissect their choices, and offer insights into the human condition that might just leave you questioning everything you thought you knew about the pursuit of happiness and the cost of deception.
Thanks for all the support!! Please follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Tik Tok, or email us, and remember we now have a Patreon!!
patreon.com/sinnersamongsaintspodcast
sinnersamongsaintspodcast@gmail.com
Tik Tok @sinnersamongsaints
Hey guys, I'm Lindsay and I'm Megan. Welcome to another week of Sinners Among Saints. Thanks, thanks for joining us Coming back, yeah, keep on coming back, keep on keep on. I almost just said keep on coming. I mean that too, that too, I mean whatever, whatever you want to do. Yeah, so we have a couple shout outs this week, right? I do. We have two new Patrons.
Speaker 3:Patrons.
Speaker 2:Whatever?
Speaker 3:Patronus is Whatever. Whatever you want to say, whatever you want us to call you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so our first one is Wendy Sue Smith. Thank you so much. She is a fantastic woman that I work with. Thank, you that started listening to our podcast and she was like I just laugh about it, and so thank you, thanks for the support.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thank you. Another new Patron, whatever is my aunt, cynthia Gardner. Yay, so thank you so much. Thanks, cynthia. I appreciate it so so much. You have no idea, I love it.
Speaker 2:Cynthia's kind of like watched us grow up together.
Speaker 3:Yeah, oh, for sure, yeah, she is my mom's sister and so and they're super, super close, yeah, and so yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks, and happy late retirement.
Speaker 3:Yeah, isn't that awesome.
Speaker 2:Congrats, that is awesome.
Speaker 3:I think it's sad when they retire. Some people you see, like those really old people at Walmart, I know Like they just don't get to retire.
Speaker 2:I think it's sad when they can't retire.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:Some people just don't want to For sure they're like listen, I just need something to do with my life. I'll probably be one of those people where I have to have a little something going on because I don't think I could. Just I don't know what I would do with myself. Yeah, I don't know. I'm hoping that I'm like super rich, that's what I'm saying, and then I can just do like philanthropic things.
Speaker 3:That's what I'm saying. Yeah, I know I have to like actually work. Yeah, If I have money then I'll fill my time doing like some fun things that I wanted to do, or take up some hobbies or travel.
Speaker 2:That's my big goal is to travel my life, yeah.
Speaker 3:I would love to do that even as I age, so that would be great. But, yeah, happy retirement. I am so happy that she finally gets to do that, because she deserves it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she does. She's been a lot of years of hard work, yeah, just with her.
Speaker 3:My uncle passed away a few years ago, several years ago, and then my mom and a grandma, like she just has dealt with a lot of stuff. Yeah, so she definitely deserves that. She does, but thank you. So fo-show, fo-show. As you guys can hear, though I still don't have a voice, I'll be so grateful. It's not my week to be talking. Yeah.
Speaker 2:She actually sounds way worse than she did last week. And then I jinxed myself because I was like I never catch anything. And then I caught some stomach bug. I had a call in sick to work yesterday because I was so violently sick I didn't even leave my bedroom the whole day. No, that stomach stuff is terrible, Terrible. But I woke up this morning feeling okay and I had a piece of toast and so far so good. So that's good.
Speaker 3:We'll see how it goes, thankfully, I mean most of the time. I feel like the stomach. Things are fairly quick, but when they are going on and-.
Speaker 2:It's terrible, because it's like the most intense cramping, and then I started throwing up at about I don't even know, like two-ish Otherwise it was just everything else. And so at two I started trying to throw up, but I literally had nothing in my stomach like not even fluid, and so it was just like dry heaves, which, to me, are the worst.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's the worst. They're just like get it up and then be done. Yeah, when I was pregnant and I would just be like throwing up so much that it would just end up being like dry heaving. I would drink. I always had water with me so I could drink it and at least have something to throw up, Because dry heaving is the worst.
Speaker 2:But I just wanted to say really quick.
Speaker 3:Cody just sent me a text and said well, I just got in the car to go grab a part and your advertisement was playing, Yay.
Speaker 2:Oh man, we literally we just missed it. We just tried to listen right before we logged on, like literally right before we logged in, and we were like, well, it's probably not going to play till later, but it, yeah, we played and we missed it, dang it.
Speaker 3:That's so funny. Yeah, because we really. It was like 11.10 and I was like, well, that one week, I think, I played at 11.13, but last week it was 11.43.
Speaker 2:So we're just like, okay, let's just record, we each only heard like two of our commercials because we were just either like I've been traveling or we're just you're not like listening to the radio all the time on Saturdays just kind of here and there and so we've missed it, like most of the time. But hopefully you guys are hearing it, or yeah? Mix 105.1 or if you're in the South, it's like 103.9.
Speaker 2:I think Okay, if you're like in Utah County or further South, because I remember when we were headed down to a funeral I was trying to listen to it. Okay, and 105.1 like cuts out, and so then you got to switch to 10, I think it's 109 or 103.9.
Speaker 3:Okay, yeah, yeah, it's we're we. They have a little spot on Fridays, if you catch that. They kind of talk about what's going on for the weekend. And then Saturdays we have our little commercial and it's still for me it's still super fun to like hear it, because we record like the part and we send it to them, but we don't get to hear like a full thing put together yeah, until, like it plays. It's fun.
Speaker 2:I mean, I guess we can ask for it before him. I've never asked for like the full thing, but yeah, it's kind of fun to actually listen to it on the radio though.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it makes you feel kind of cool, and my kids are like mom you're on the radio like I'm this superstar.
Speaker 2:That's how I feel, like when I hear it on the radio, I'm always like You're treating me like a superstar.
Speaker 3:Right, I do. I feel super like. It makes me feel cool whenever I hear it on the radio.
Speaker 2:I know it does.
Speaker 3:I can only imagine being like a famous singer or something like you hear your song on the radio like the first two times.
Speaker 2:So if you guys want to, confidence boost just pay for yourself to be on the radio and it's like it's a great thing.
Speaker 3:Grab yourself a nap spot. I highly recommend it. Yeah, it's great, so All right.
Speaker 2:Did we have anything else? We didn't really talk before this.
Speaker 3:No, I don't think so either.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we didn't chat too much. No, I know, I was trying to think if there's any like. I did read like a couple of crazy news stories that were Utah. I think I've been like sick kind of all week and I was at work and I remember like reading one, but I can't remember if it was in Utah but some guy got arrested for this girl who's like 12. She lives by like a farm, okay, and so she would walk down there. The people who own the place said that she could go and play with the goats and so she could go in the goat pen and play whenever she wanted. So she did it. Like all the time I'd walk over there and like just go hang out with the goats and there was a, I would do that all the time.
Speaker 2:Oh, I would too. I would go and play with the goats, and I want goats.
Speaker 3:When I lived in Curran, we lived next to like just a field and there was horses. There were people, someone's horses, but I used to always go out there and it was like literally my front yard, so I'd just go and like feed them apples and I loved it, so yeah if someone had a goat somewhere, like you can come play with my goats. I'd be like oh, thank you, it's my treat. I would do it now as an adult.
Speaker 2:So that's fine, that's fine.
Speaker 3:But she was. She went there and there was a guy parked in like a truck in the driveway and I guess he lived there. The house, I guess, has like six dudes that live there. Let's be like I don't have any idea.
Speaker 3:I didn't say who they were, how they were related, if they just worked on this like farm and lived there too. I have no idea that he came up to her and was like trying to talk to her and she said that she told him like to leave her alone and, you know, beat it and then she went over and, I think, played with like some other, like other animals, and then was heading back to the goat pen and he followed her and went in and locked her in the pen and then assaulted her like sexually assaulted her, oh no, and she was able to like kick at, like kick him and escape and she ran down the road and called, I think from like a gas station and reported it, and so he was arrested for like sexually, you know, for like a sexually assaulting a child under the age of 14.
Speaker 2:Good for her that she was able to get away. Yeah, she like just terrifying.
Speaker 3:Yeah, just in, like the story, it sounded like she's just like feisty, where at first she was like when he tried to talk to her. She's like leave me alone, go away, good yeah.
Speaker 2:We need to teach our youth to and that she like okay to be mean. Yeah, like if people, you don't have to be polite.
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 2:People are giving you the creep vibes, yeah.
Speaker 3:And if you're a little girl and a grown man is trying to bother, you like absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, if you're a little boy, yeah, a little boy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a little guy, a little guy. I don't know why. So that's a little point.
Speaker 3:But then she like ran and told immediately to let's, that's so they were able to like take her down to the I think it was. They flew. They took her to primary children's. Oh wow, they took her to a kid and they were able to. They checked the DNA of everyone and got in with him.
Speaker 2:Good, I'm glad that that like at least had. Well, I don't know.
Speaker 3:I know it's so hard.
Speaker 2:Happy ending and that doesn't seem fitting right now.
Speaker 3:No, but he was caught like he can't go out and like assault me when else yeah.
Speaker 2:Hopefully, though, they keep him, because we know that.
Speaker 3:Well, it's hard to, because he's not even he's from like Peru, he's not from here, he's from another country.
Speaker 2:Maybe they'll just deport yeah.
Speaker 3:So I don't even know if he's here, like not that he's not here legally, but like maybe he's here like on a work visa or something, and even if that and you get in a car and they can deport you.
Speaker 2:So hopefully like yeah, because I see like it Worst. Either that or if he's like an actual citizen. I hope he goes away Me too, For a long time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I do too, I guess Right, I know yeah.
Speaker 2:But seems like the scariest is so scary like you just think you're going to go have a happy day playing with some goats.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's terrible, yeah, and as a parent gosh. They're like well, you can never leave the house again, Right, Sorry, you can never do anything in a neighbor's house again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, never, ever Creepers. That's terrible and it was even outside. Like we teach our kids like they can't go into other people's house, yeah, but there's like lots of kids in the neighborhood that all play together and we've always been like fine with that. But it makes you like question everything. You hear these stories and it's like aww. But you also?
Speaker 2:can't keep your kids inside in a bubble all the time. No, no, you can't Like, you have to just use your best judgment, yeah, best judgment and obviously our parents taught her right to like and she was able to at least get away and told and ran for help.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's good. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Everyone. We all need to teach our kids those things, yeah.
Speaker 3:We need to do it as adults too. Yeah, and sometimes not the worst. You know, just like you get scared in the moment, and I would hope I would do that as an adult. In my mind, I feel like I would like I would beat the shit out of them.
Speaker 2:But you have no idea. You literally never know how you're going to be in that situation.
Speaker 3:Nope, it's so shocking, like your whole body goes into shock, and so sometimes, sometimes you fight and sometimes I think you just kind of freeze.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, they say fight or flight. I think it's fight, flight or freeze. Yeah, it really is. A lot of times that's people's responses. You just freeze up like you're like, is this really happening? What is going?
Speaker 3:on. Yeah, it takes a minute for your brain to kind of process what's even happening, because and then sometimes by then it's.
Speaker 2:It's like all the people that find dead bodies.
Speaker 3:They can literally every show and they think it's a mannequin. A mannequin, you know. It takes your whole body like a minute to be like that's a real person. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:So a few weeks ago, domesticated savages put out one of their podcasts and they were talking about how they got called. It was like one of these calls that it was this school that was kind of like by a river and somebody called because it looked like a child in the river and so they called and they were like, dreading it going to go out to like dig out this child's body, which is never a good situation and they get out there and it ended up being not a mannequin but a sex doll and it was like missing a leg and it just looked like it had been like battered and abused and I left.
Speaker 2:I left so hard because it was like they were talking about it and afterward they were going to take it and like book it into evidence. Because who?
Speaker 3:knows, right yeah.
Speaker 2:What it yeah, what was going on with the doll, and the fireman that showed up ended up taking it with them, and so they were just making all these jokes, because you know firemen and Police.
Speaker 3:Cops yeah, they have a little rival. They have a little rival, yeah, but it was hilarious, it was funny so hard.
Speaker 2:And then I went to work and I was telling one of the guys at work about it and he's like I didn't even say anything, I just said the firefighters took it and he was like that's because they're all scumbag. I started going off and I was like whoa the firefighters that I have ever known have been.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, you're like what kind of experience did you have?
Speaker 2:Mario's nephew. Just, I guess my nephew too, but it's a weird situation. My husband's like a lot younger than his siblings, so his nieces and nephews are like my age. Yeah. Like he's like a few years younger than me, but he just got his firefighter and he is not a creepo at all. That's awesome yeah.
Speaker 3:Shane had a case when he was first police officer. That was like an accident and he went to it and when he pulled up so it was like right by like the freeway, on ramp, he could just see like the car had flipped over and like there was hair like hanging down from like the ceiling and he was like, oh my God, like someone's head has like been decapitated, like he was like freaking out and he was a new cop and he like went walking up there and it was these two guys that were in a relationship together and it was one of their wigs.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh. All in off. It was like stuck at the top and was hanging down, and so he was like oh my God, he's like. I was so scared going up there thinking someone's head had been removed, hanging from the ceiling, and it was just someone's wig.
Speaker 2:It's not always a mannequin, but I'm shocked at the amount of times that it is like a mannequin, yeah. Who has all these mannequins that they're just like hanging out with I have no idea, but do you not have real friends? What is happening?
Speaker 3:I watched a whole documentary on those people that have the real dolls and are in relationships with them. No Off Leute, Jo that is mind blowing creepiest thing.
Speaker 2:I watched an episode I don't know what it was, even on.
Speaker 2:It was a long time ago, but the one guy had it was like a doll, like a life-sized doll, and he would like pretend that it was his girlfriend and he would take it to dinner, uh-huh, and he would have like friends over for a dinner party and have his girlfriend there and like make conversation with her, uh-huh, and I was like how, as a friend, like if I went to a freaking dinner party and you had a damn mannequin and you like wanted me to talk to it, yeah, and you're like have you lost your ever loving?
Speaker 3:mind. Yeah, Like no. The one guy I remember he lived with his mom, of course, and he had this real doll and it was his girlfriend and he would like bring her, like make her come into the table and have dinner with him and his mom, and he went out like one time and they did a photo shoot. No, Outside in public. And he's like no, it's okay, what is?
Speaker 2:wrong with people? What is happening?
Speaker 3:How. And his mom like just had dinner with them, like this was like perfectly normal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's where he gets it from, that is not normal. If my kid ever brought home a mannequin, I'd be like you know that that's not real right, like we're getting you help right now.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you'll need to be seen Something is not okay. This is not okay, no.
Speaker 2:Yikes, that's. It is so creepy to me it is, yeah, very creepy Anyway. So sorry if any of our listeners have mannequin friends, but that's freaking weird and you should go get help because it's not normal and I don't really care if I offend you no.
Speaker 3:No, also be nice to you, like, whatever.
Speaker 1:I will. Yeah, I'm not going to be mean to you, but I don't have to like, I don't have to think it's normal, but I will tell you that it's freaking weird.
Speaker 2:I would tell Megan the same thing. If she brought over a mannequin and wanted me to talk to her. I'd be like you're. You're goddam insane. That's not happening, but you do, you, in the privacy of your home, own home. You can pretend that whatever you want is like your girlfriend or your best friend. But in the real world I'm not allowing that to happen in my presence.
Speaker 3:No, we're not going to dinner with your, with your mannequin friends.
Speaker 2:No, Can you imagine being a waiter or a waitress to be like oh my God it would be the best story ever.
Speaker 3:I would-. What was your girlfriend like for dinner? I would love to like just sit and watch that and just watch somebody have this whole dinner with a mannequin.
Speaker 2:I mean if you really think about it, it's probably the perfect relationship because you can make them be whatever you want them to be, they will never say no to you, whatever personality you can do whatever you want in the bedroom. You don't have to buy them dinner or presents. Nope Right, Like I mean you can buy it for yourself, Like you can buy them lingerie for them to wear for you.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, you can buy whatever you say and be like whatever it is that you want all of the time. Yeah, it would be amazing, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, maybe people are onto something, I don't know.
Speaker 3:Maybe you should who are we to judge?
Speaker 2:Maybe you should buy a mannequin and have it be your best friend and or significant other. What if? All right. Well, that's an interesting one, yep, all right. So let's get into this case, because it might be a little bit longer.
Speaker 2:So I read a book about this case and every time you read a book there's like just a lot more information, so much. And so I tried to sum this up the best I could. But there's a lot, yeah. So this is sort of this classic case of he said, she said with the exception of the he said is no longer alive to tell his version of events. Oh, okay, it's kind of one of these.
Speaker 2:Who do we believe? A woman who claims she killed her husband in self-defense, or a dead man who, by accounts from everyone else in his life, was this great member of society who can no longer defend himself from his partner's accusations? So for this case, I'm going to give you both sides, while trying to stay as neutral as possible. So I'm going to present you the information just how I read and or heard it, and let you kind of decide what you think, just like a jury, and I can tell you what I think at the end. But I want you guys to kind of form your own opinion without my bias. So it's really harder than you might think.
Speaker 3:Oh, it is because you think you're being neutral and then you realize like nope, I'm judging.
Speaker 2:Nope, I'm totally judging, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:I'm like it's hard to. It is hard to be neutral.
Speaker 2:So Lisa Dewitt King and Chris Northon met in 1996 in Hawaii. So Lisa was living there with her husband Don King, which not the Don King but he's actually very another famous Don King and their young son, okai. Now Don was a very, very successful surfing photographer and cinematographer. Okay, like, essentially, if you think of a surf movie, he was involved. So like. Blue Crush anything that has to do with surfing. He was sort of there to help with the cinematography.
Speaker 2:That's cool. He traveled all the time for work, so he was gone often for weeks at a time, and when Lisa met him, this felt like a perfect match because she was always happiest near the ocean, she was an avid surfer and she even worked with Marine Life. So Nick took Lisa under her wing and taught her all about photography and she ended up being really, really good at this. Like, she has her own stuff that you can find online, and her photography is gorgeous. Who's Nick, did I say? Nick? Yeah, sorry, don. Okay, what do they call him Nick? Oh, they do. So I think some of these I had as Nick and I thought I changed them, but I didn't. So Don took Lisa under his wing.
Speaker 3:I was just like, wait, did I zone out and miss a whole person?
Speaker 2:Nope you sure didn't. That was totally on my end. So she ended up making her own career out of this and at one point in the late 1980s, early 90s, she was making like eight grand a month. Wow, which back then was like that's a ton of money.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Don adored Lisa and soon the couple married and he was super, super laid back and basically just wanted Lisa to be happy and the couple traveled and lived a very exciting and adventurous life together. Like essentially they would just go to all these different beaches and surf and do photography and like hang out. Like it sounds like this dream life right.
Speaker 2:And Lisa became pregnant in 1990, in 1991 with their son, and when this happened she had to kind of stop traveling so much. So she and their son, okay, would stay behind and Don continued to travel. She was said to be a super amazing mom and a very attentive mom, and her and her young son soon became very close, because it was just the two of them most of the time, yeah, and then Don started to drift apart because they weren't spending as much time together. Right, so that's easy to do, right, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Don still just wanted nothing but for Lisa to be happy. And what made Lisa happy was kind of buying property. She wanted to buy as much property as she could. So they had several places in Hawaii and it sounds like they would invest in a property and then move, and then invested in other property and then move. I couldn't find anywhere that she was using these as like rentals, but she was just sort of investing and then she'd want more property and more property and more property. But it sounds like at one point they had several different properties but they weren't really renting them out Interesting. So to some that may seem like really weird, but to others it's like a property is really good investment, it's a great investment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so she started wanting to expand their portfolio and purchase property on the mainland, which didn't really make much sense to Don. When Don was home, Lisa started bugging him more and more about buying property and this time wanting to expand their portfolio and wanting to buy a 500 acre ranch in Oregon. Okay, and she's originally from Washington, so she's kind of from that area. But this and this was a dream that Lisa would carry on throughout her adulthood. But Don told her no to the ranch because, number one, it was on the mainland and when he was home he was like I don't, when I'm home I want to be like, relaxed and spending time with you Like.
Speaker 2:I don't want to be a rancher. Yeah, that's hard work. It's a lot of time and a lot of financial commitment.
Speaker 3:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:And he was like no, I'm not like. This doesn't make sense.
Speaker 3:For our lifestyle. I think I'm on Don's side, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so this soon led to Lisa starting to blame everything wrong in her life on Don. It was like the turning point of the relationship where suddenly the cause she's. She kind of got whatever she wanted.
Speaker 3:I was going to say she's been told no.
Speaker 2:And now she's like I don't like this. So anything that upset her in her life, even if it didn't involve him, was his Somehow him. Yeah, she was an avid journaler and even developed this new mantra which she would mutter under his her breath and also write in her diary over and, over and over. And this new mantra was simply I hate my husband, I hate my husband, I hate my husband, oh my God, which I'm like. Okay, I mean, she would say this when he was around, but just like under her breath.
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah, yeah, that's um yeah. No yeah. I'm, I'm all for, like your. You can tell yourself something like it's very powerful, Uh-huh. And if that is your mantra, then yeah, it's. You're just, it's going to be.
Speaker 2:That's what comes to fruition, right? So she then starts constantly asking Don for a divorce, but he didn't really think she was serious. She he was like I don't know, I don't know why he didn't take her serious. But she kept asking and finally, one time, after he was he had been gone for several weeks on a shoot he came home to find his wife and son had basically moved in with another man, and this man was Chris Northon. And so this is what led to their divorce. Oh yeah, so she divorces Don, and we're going to go in to Lisa's past quite a bit, but this was sort of a trend for her. So when she has relationship issues, she just sort of moves on to the next before the relationship is actually over.
Speaker 3:And yeah, that's not. That's not the right way to do it.
Speaker 2:That's not always the right way to do it. So, in fact, lisa and Don had started dating when they met in Hawaii, while she was in a relationship with another man, so, and Don was her second marriage, okay, and then married one other time. So Lisa and DeWitt was born in Silver City, new Mexico, on March 10th 1962. She's a Pisces. We both have some Pisces in our lives. And, yeah, yep, that's all we need to say. She had one younger brother named John, but he went by tour, okay, I don't know why.
Speaker 2:The family moved to Walla Walla, washington, when Lisa was just five years old and that's where she ended up graduating high school from. So in high school, she was a cheerleader and ran track. She had a ton of friends and was even homecoming princess, and she ended up graduating in 1979 and went on to attend Oregon State in Corvallis, washington. Okay, she was an avid journaler and loved writing, and in fact, she went on to write several screenplays, oh, okay, she was also said to be a great storyteller and had a flair for the dramatic. So while she was still in high school, she even changed the spelling of her name, which was the normal L-I-S-A, to L-I-Y-S-A in order to stand out more because she felt her name was boring, so L-I-Y-S-A.
Speaker 2:Several people in her life didn't know when she was telling a story or being truthful, and some even said that they weren't sure if Lisa knew herself when she was lying. She often told her close childhood friends that her mom beat her very, very badly. Her dad traveled a lot for work and wasn't there to protect her and turned a blind eye to the abuse when he was home. So she ended up claiming that her mom had chased her with a knife on several occasions and broke 26 of her bones before she turned 16. What so? She ends up leaving the house at a young age to get away from her mom and her parents.
Speaker 2:Later divorce and some sources say that the dad divorced the mom because of the abuse and others said no, it had nothing to do with that. In Ann Roll's book she said that there was no medical records to back up the claim and usually if you have a broken bone you have like 26 different ones.
Speaker 2:So there's no medical records to back up what she's saying. She told people that her mom beat her so badly that she ended up forcing her to stand in the bathtub during these beatings so she wouldn't get pee on the floor when she urinated due to the excessive pain. Oh my God, which I'm like. If that's true, that's some shit.
Speaker 3:And if it's not true, that's also some shit.
Speaker 2:It's some shit Either way yeah.
Speaker 3:Right. Oh, I am like it is like a dichotomy there, because if that's really truthful, like that's horrific Right.
Speaker 2:So awful. That's the young age if she was abused that badly.
Speaker 3:But if she's like making this up to get like sympathy from people and be like get attention, that's some like mental shit.
Speaker 2:Yep. So Chris Northon was a pilot from Oregon and he worked for Hawaiian Airlines, and so he flew out of Hawaii a lot. So he grew up in Bend, oregon, and loved the outdoors. In high school he played several sports, including football and baseball, and he and his family and friends would often hike. He was very, very good looking, athletic type. He was tall, lean physique and later in life he learned to surf and loved the ocean.
Speaker 2:He had several romantic relationships but was said to be a hopeless bachelor. Most of his friends thought he would never get married and so he and another pilot friend rented a place to stay in Hawaii while they were traveling. So he owned a home in Bend, but he was in Hawaii so much that they rented a place there so they wouldn't have to live out of a hotel. And this rental just happened to be right next door to Lisa and Dawn. So he often saw the good looking, lean and fit woman heading to the beach with her young son. He was attracted to her both physically and mentally, so they start striking up conversations and he loved that. She was super independent and didn't really seem to need a man, and it just felt like she didn't need me but she wanted me, so that makes you feel good about yourself right.
Speaker 2:They had great sexual chemistry and a really good physical relationship, which she wrote all about in her journal. So she had been with several men in her lifetime, but only two men prior to Chris had really satisfied her sexually to the point that she wrote about it in her journal. The first was a man who we will call Ray. She supposedly he met him while she was attending Oregon State around 1981 and he was this very handsome football player, and she wrote about how intense their sexual relationship was and told people like family and friends that they were engaged. But then Ray died tragically in a car accident just two months before their wedding. However, no friends or family had ever Met Ray in person or talked to him, so nobody could really confirm If this actually happens, a real person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh Okay. But he told, she told people that they were engaged and then he died tragically in a car accident. Huh, okay, a couple of months a couple of months after Ray's supposed death she married her first husband, who we will call Kurt Moran that's what they refer to him as in Ann Rolls book. Okay, now in the book at everybody's name has changed. Okay, so I was only able to find Her first husband, or her second husband a lot of information about him, the other one not so much. Okay, so we'll just refer to him as Kurt Moran. And when they married she was 19 and he was 20.
Speaker 2:The couple ended up moving to Ithaca, New York. So, remember, she had always been like West Coast. Yeah, so they moved to the East Coast for Kurt's job and they lived there for a couple of years and Lisa was absolutely Miserable. She hated the East Coast and finally convinced Kurt to move to Hawaii. So that's how she ends up in Hawaii. Okay, lisa had always had a love for the water and felt at home in Hawaii's laid-back atmosphere. Like she was one of these girls who never wore makeup doesn't really do her hair that much, walks around without shoes Like likes to just be in swimsuits, so it's just like a perfect environment. Yeah, lifestyle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, kurt would later say that during their entire marriage, lisa would lie and described her as very manipulative. She would make up these elaborate stories and then try to do anything she could to convince you that they were true. She would even lie about really weird, small things like where she worked, oh, like things that aren't a big deal, yeah, and are things that most people wouldn't lie to their spouse about, right.
Speaker 2:But like all these little things and he said it was almost like she couldn't help it- Weird yeah, the couple was married for six years total, but separated after four years when Kurt found out that Lisa had been unfaithful to him on several occasions. Which brings us to her second amazing sexual counter, a man that she had had an affair with while in Hawaii, while she was married to Kurt. Okay, so, according to this man, it was just a one-night stand. Uh-huh. He was like listen, I made a mistake, we hooked up once. Yeah, it wasn't a big deal, but to her it was much more Uh-huh she, he was in a relationship as well and had a child on the way. Oh, he just felt like it was just kind of an oops mistake and didn't want to pursue anything. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Lisa wanted more, and Lisa told people that they were in fact together for months Like four to six months, depending on the source that you read and that they were even engaged. But when you talk to him. He's like no no it was like a one-night thing. Oh, so he made such an impact on Lisa that she would go on to compare all of her subsequent sexual encounters and Boyfriends to this man, because he didn't want her.
Speaker 3:That's what this is.
Speaker 2:I feel like you is that he didn't want her, and so it's like you, always it like the one that got away, or whatever, and then you just can't stop obsessing about it.
Speaker 3:Made it so much bigger in her mind because this guy didn't just like yeah, want to be with her.
Speaker 2:He was like nope, sorry and I mean there's journals where he is in his her journals for years and years afterward. That's cuckoo. So, okay, in 1984, lisa attended the University of Hawaii and was majoring in Journalism and video technology. Okay, so she worked several odd jobs and goes on to claim that several of her bosses sexually assaulted her on Multiple occasions, although no charges were ever filed. She also told people that she was the only woman to qualify to become a Navy SEAL during her testing. Okay, and I think she might like the only woman in her like group.
Speaker 2:That was testing, but ended up not moving forward with this because her swim test instructor had touched her inappropriately and it made her feel so uncomfortable that she backed out. Okay. This was all during her marriage to Kurt, so this is a lot in like, yeah, six years.
Speaker 3:Four years yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So then Kurt and her end up getting divorced in 1987, and she met her next boyfriend, whom she refers to as Tim Sands. These two met at a party and became serious very quickly. Tim also reports that he caught Lisa in several lies, but they were little things, so he just lets them slide.
Speaker 2:He's like I didn't even really confront her on a lot of stuff because yeah, it's just like so stupid, like dumb things that she was lying about, yeah, but they end up like Me, he, she, he introduces her to his mom and they like have all of these like dinners with his mom and they're just like getting pretty close.
Speaker 2:Right after ten months of dating, tim thought things were going great until something really odd happened. He was taking Lisa to the airport and Lisa said that they needed to talk about something going on in their relationship. So he was like, oh shit, here it comes. Yeah, so he braces himself.
Speaker 2:But then she just, instead of talking to him, she's just like burst out in uncontrollable tears, where she was like hysterical and then just refused to talk to him.
Speaker 2:So she was in like such a hysterical state that he was like I don't think you should fly, I'm just gonna take you home, yeah, and she didn't say anything to him. So he was like, okay, so she, he takes her home and she basically goes into like this catatonic state and won't talk in general to anybody, not just him. Okay, and then she like goes into this deep sleep and when she woke up she was really out of it and couldn't remember who he was Ever meeting him or his mom, and was like freaked out that some random guy was in her house and and thought it was the year in 1983, but it was really 1986. So he was like this is weird, so he brings some of her friends by to come see her and she can't remember them either. She's like I don't know who any of you people are, so it was like something triggered this full-blown Amnesia so everybody's super worried about her, like what is going on?
Speaker 2:and this lasted for months, like several months, and she just has no clue who anybody is. So Tim was so baffled and not really sure what to do. But eventually is like, well, I'm just gonna end this relationship, cuz she's like she doesn't know who I am. Yeah, and his mom felt really sorry for Lisa and His mom's leaving. She's like moving in with her boyfriend on the mainland, uh-huh. And so she's like listen, I have somebody coming to stay at my house in a couple months, but until then, why don't you just live here rent-free, like we'll try and figure stuff out, so that you're not having to work during this time? Yeah, and so Lisa moves in to Tim's mom's house and is there for a couple of months Until she ends up having to move out because she has more people coming in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's actually Tim's cousin who comes in after Lisa and Finds one of her journals that she left there, and so she starts reading it. Oh yeah, and he is like shocked and appalled at what he read. She had detailed in her journal that she had faked the entire incident, faked it, and it was like literally detailed out like every little thing, and it's almost written out like one of her screenplays what and all of this? Because it just wasn't working out with Tim and she didn't want to break up with him. So she faked amnesia for months. How shitty would you feel if you were.
Speaker 3:Tim Like so extra, what, what that takes so much effort, so much effort.
Speaker 2:I'm pretending you don't know your friends. Yeah, I thought that was not really hard, like if suddenly you came over and I just had to pretend I didn't know you, so weird.
Speaker 3:I'm not that good of an actress. No kudos to her.
Speaker 2:She had everybody fold about it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, cuz I Am the worst actress. Yeah, that I was okay. So when you first were talking about I was like I was gonna ask I do you think she faked it? Cuz it's so weird, it is so just like brushing the tears, go to sleep and then wake up and be like who are you? What's happening?
Speaker 2:It's like, it's like a soap opera. Yeah, it really is, oh.
Speaker 3:Okay, oh my god, all right. So Lisa, with an extra letter Y Too much.
Speaker 2:So, a year after this incident, incident is when she marries Don King Okay, and there were claims that she met Don and started something with him While still in a relationship with Tim Okay, so the trend continues. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Another important thing to note here is that her first husband, kurt, reports that Lisa never once talked about her abuse by her mom and that she had no physical scars on her body Anywhere from severe abuse, which you would think if you were severely abused that bad yeah and had that many broken bones, you would have something right, yeah but Tim reports that Lisa detailed All of the abuse to him.
Speaker 2:He also says she didn't have any scars, but he she told him, like all the horror stories that she had gone through in her childhood. Okay, so it's just a little odd that, like some people, she's very open with Uh-huh, but then the person that she's married to for six years, she doesn't tell yeah interesting.
Speaker 2:Kurt also said that when she met Lisa's mom because they hung out a decent amount with her parents, uh-huh, that she was super, super friendly and never gave off any vibes. Okay, yeah, at least so people other people too that met Lisa's mom just said she was so nice to everyone. Yeah, we're shocked when they would hear these allegations that she, like, beat the shit out of her child.
Speaker 2:Well, and you would think if, if that was the truth too, that when Lisa got around her there would be a different dynamic, just in her personality, with this abuser and it did sound like she was much closer to her dad, like they hung out a lot more than her and her mom, but she still ended up having a relationship with her mom later in life, right, and I mean I feel like it. It's hard because in this podcast, like if we've learned anything, it's that we never know what truly happens behind closed doors and people are capable of some really gross things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm able to hide it from other people in their life, for sure really really well, yeah, a lot of times, people are going through abuse and people have no clue. Uh-huh, yeah, so I don't know, I don't know. Yeah, I can neither confirm nor deny right, yeah her abuse.
Speaker 2:So now let's get back to Chris. So when Chris and Lisa meet, chris is enamored by Lisa and this tends to be another trend for her. Like people are just Just drawn to her. There is something about her like she could probably could have been a cult leader. Yeah, like she has a lot of pull with people. They just love her. Yeah, chris is for sure Lisa's physical type and they hit it off really quickly and, as I've mentioned, their sexual chemistry was off the charts. So Chris was always able to please Lisa in the bedroom and apparently orgasms occurred pretty quickly and very often During intercourse with Chris. Okay, he just, he just knew what she was. Yeah, right.
Speaker 2:So Lisa even has like this little I'm gonna call it a shack, because I don't really know if it was like a house. It doesn't sound like it had plumbing, like there wasn't a bathroom, okay. But she has this little Structure in the back of her property where she lives with her husband, don, and While Chris's roommate ends up having to move out of their apartment, chris moves in to this structure and then would just like go into the house to use the bathroom. Okay, so she's just yards away from Lisa's house and that's when Don moves home and is like excuse me, what's happening? Even before her divorce to Don is final and Lisa and Chris are doing their thing. Lisa starts bringing up marriage very often to Chris and really wants him to commit to her. Chris wasn't really interested in marriage or starting a family because at this time he's 40 and he just likes living the bachelor life. Yeah, so Lisa wrote him the super long letter, like like 20 page long letter.
Speaker 3:Wow, okay, it's like a mini novel.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, essentially giving him an ultimatum of moving forward in their life and marrying her or he could move out so that they could both move on with their lives. Because she's essentially like listen, I'm not okay with you Just being my Side piece. Yeah, like I want to. I want you to make me your wife. So Chris really did love Lisa and several other things in her long, long ass letter Really really touched him. So she's like he's like you know what, maybe I will marry this girl, okay. So in March of 1996 Chris called up a pastor and asked if he could perform a wedding for the couple. And the pastor's like sure, like what date are you thinking? He's like I was actually wondering if you could do it later today. And the pastor's like well, my kid has soccer practice, but I guess I could do it after soccer practice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and he's like, okay, great. So then he calls up one of his friends to attend the wedding but told him don't tell the rest of our friend group because I don't want everybody there, because several of the friend group had been trying to talk him out of marrying.
Speaker 2:Lisa. His friends seemed to have had mixed feelings whether or not Lisa was the right person for Chris, and several had voiced their reservations about her. But then others said, nope, they seemed like this perfect couple. He was so happy with her. Yeah, she was super friendly and fit into our group, so it's like kind of two sides. Yeah, so they get married that same day on the beach in a very private ceremony. And at this point Lisa has only been divorced from Dawn for 26 days.
Speaker 3:26 days, and she's already her poor kid, because now she has a kid in the mix like and he's like I want to say three when they get married.
Speaker 2:So he's still a little bit young where he's like yeah, but she was a bride for the third time at the age of 34. Okay, okay, so she's 34. He's 40. The couple did have a very basic prenuptial agreement stating that what each party came into the marriage with they would keep in the event of divorce.
Speaker 2:So, essentially she would get her Hawaii property, he would get his Bend property, easy peasy, okay. Lisa did also add a clause in there, though, that if they had Children together she would get soul custody if they divorce. And Chris agreed, because he was like we're not having kids, like that's, I'm too old, I don't want to start like having a young family at 40, yeah, and just didn't really think that that was a point of contention. So he's like, sure, so he signs it once they got married. He also said that if he ever did get married it would be lifetime. Like his parents, he would never get divorced, he would stick it out and he would do whatever he could to make a marriage work. Okay, the couple settled into married life and Chris loved being a stepdad to okay, and they overall seemed to be happy. But Chris's friends noted that soon after the marriage, lisa sort of started trying to isolate Chris and she wanted him to only spend time with her and Would often forget to even give Chris messages that his friends would left would leave him.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's like before. Cell phones, right, yeah, all the landline and be like hey, is Chris there?
Speaker 2:No, hey, will you let him know? Blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2:Yeah she would just not pass along the message, okay, cuz she didn't want him to go hang out with his friends when he was home. Yeah, the couple started fighting more and more, and Chris hated the fact that Lisa was Said to be a really big slob and a terrible housekeeper. He was more neat and preferred a tidy home, uh-huh, but he just let it go. But he did mention to people that he was very embarrassed when friends or family would stop by to visit because their house was just like it disarray. Yeah, but he would never badmouth his wife in front of anyone and if anyone mentioned anything negative about Lisa, he was the first to come to her defense. Okay, so he really did like yeah yeah, lisa was just the opposite.
Speaker 2:She would talk about all of Chris's flaws to whomever would listen. Uh-huh, so she would tell her friends. She would even call and Complain about Chris to his friends and like their spouses Uh-huh, her family. And she would even call up his mom a lot and talk to her about things that were going wrong in their marriage. Okay, so Lisa reported that the first incident of physical abuse between the couple occurred just a couple of months after their marriage. Chris had been drinking and she reports that he, when he drank, he had a really, really bad temper and so they began to fight and he reached out and choked her. Oh, and she said, when this happened, both of them were shocked and he Seemed very, very like Apologetic, like I don't know what just happened. I am so sorry. Yeah, never happened again. And so she just thought it was like a one-time Situation and that had just gotten out of hand because how much he had had to drink. Okay, but unfortunately, this was just the beginning.
Speaker 2:She was active at a local gym and had many friends there, and after her workout classes they I guess this couple there are, these friends were like super close, like they'd go to the gym workout, go in the locker room shower like if they had just had boob jobs or worked on they'd show each other, okay, like it was just type that type of furniture where they didn't really have secrets. Yeah, and so she started telling them that Chris had a really bad anger issue and even mentioned that their fights had turned physical Quite often. Okay, and she reports that he had been drinking More and more and more and when he drank his anger became very out of control and that she was becoming scared of him. He was becoming possessive and had also started doing more drugs. Oh, then Lisa got pregnant and gave birth to the couple, son, who they named Dane, in late 1997, and At this Chris was an absolute heaven, so, like his friends had started, they were all kind of living this bachelor life right and then all of a sudden they all start getting married.
Speaker 2:His friends had started having to have kids and so he had kind of shifted his views on being a father right and was having so much fun being a stepdad to. Okay, yeah, but it just sort of like, made his views change.
Speaker 2:Okay, so when Lisa got pregnant, he was thrilled to become a dad. Hmm, he adored their little boy and was said to be a really, really super fun, great and attentive dad and Would help out all the time and wanted to be with his family whenever he was not flying. Okay, and Lisa, who everyone always said was a super great mom, was elated to be a mom for a second time and the family started to do really well and All of Chris's family and friends Said that everything from the outside looked like it was going great. But in Lisa's postpartum workout classes she continued to tell her friends that Chris was being very abusive and the abuse had started up again After she had delivered Dane. Okay, on several occasions she would even show them bruises that he had left on her and a lot of the woman women were terrified for her and Just wanted to help. They urged her to leave Chris, but she told them that he would just find her wherever she went and was in fear of her life and for the life of her children.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, in Early 1998, when Dane was six months old, while the family was in Hawaii, the local police got a call from Lisa Stating that she and her husband had been in an altercation and that Chris had left the house. Confused by the call, they sent over a police officer to Check on Lisa and in the police report there were no signs of physical injury to Lisa and she denied that Chris had physically assaulted her. Okay, so she basically said that they had gotten into an argument.
Speaker 2:Chris was really angry and had left the house, so the officer is like well, okay, that's what should happen right but then she goes on to tell the policemen that Her husband had abused her on several occasions physically and that he had a really bad temper and that she was afraid of him. But she had never reported the abuse to law enforcement and so there was no record. There really wasn't much the police could do at this point, because she had admitted that he had not been physically Abusive to her in this moment, and so they basically give her some resources and tell her to call back if anything happens in the future. Yeah, but essentially their hands are tied like they can't do anything.
Speaker 2:So Lisa claimed over the next year that the abuse worsened, and when Chris was in town he would physically Abuse her on several occasions every week. It was like multiple times weekly. Okay, according to an article written by a freelance writer named Rick Swart, lisa claimed that Chris punched her, smashed her head against the wall, dragged her by the hair and kicked her in the ribs. Oh, on several times. He would choke her until she had almost passed out and once threw her from a moving car.
Speaker 2:Okay, there were signs of this contractor was often called to their house by Chris in their Oregon home to fix holes in the wall. Oh, and, and he didn't really ask much about what had caused it, but there were Holes in the wall that appeared to be like someone had punched or kicked the wall. Okay, but he said it was a small hole, like he couldn't get his own fist or foot in the hole. Yeah, cuz it was. Lisa. Definitely seems like some things going on in the house, okay, okay, and she had showed several People bruises on her body, okay, so she, she did often have bruises, okay, and these there are even pictures of the bruises that are documented. Okay.
Speaker 2:So another time, while in Oregon, lisa and Chris went out to dinner and drinks with one of Chris's good friends and his wife and Chris was super excited to unwind and just have us and have several days off from traveling. And Both Lisa and Chris were known to drink and occasionally smoke marijuana, but according to Chris's friends it was only when he had several days off of work, because as a pilot, yeah, you always had to kind of be sober and ready to go when you were, yeah, in like where you weren't specifically off.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so as a pilot he would also get randomly drug tested, and so he Didn't smoke marijuana often, but he had been known to do it on occasion when he had like a big break from work.
Speaker 2:They had also, they had all had a few drinks and Lisa started going in on Chris and absolutely Berating him in front of his friends. She was saying really mean things and just kind of nitpicking everything that he did wrong. Okay, as a human, yeah, and he wasn't super reactive, but when he she would notice like his facial expressions change, she would smile.
Speaker 2:And he didn't say anything, he just sat there and took it, and so the night ended really quickly, because you can imagine that's like awkward, so they didn't even really make it to dinner.
Speaker 2:They just sort of had their drinks on them left and On the way home. They're driving back and Chris confronted Lisa in the car. He was really embarrassed and upset about how Lisa had treated him and he started like screaming at her Very, very loudly in the car. Chris's response to conflict was typically to walk away from the situation which we've already seen, based on their fight in Hawaii and, according to his friends, he was never a fighter or really got upset.
Speaker 2:They said even in his younger years, like when males are like super like testosterone driven Uh-huh, that if they were at bars, out drinking or anything and a conflict between someone else in the bar would break out, he'd be like let's just leave, I don't want to be around this, yeah, so he was never one to fight. Okay, the couple was also in counseling trying to work on their marriage and they did a couple of sessions together, but in the sessions at least in the book it says Lisa just kind of took over and would just talk about all of Chris's flaws and they could never really get down to like how Chris was feeling about things. Okay, and so when Chris, when the counselor finally stopped him and said, listen, chris, like what's your perspective? Uh-huh, and he mentioned the things that he was struggling with with Lisa, then it turned to like an all-out battle and she like shut down.
Speaker 2:Okay she didn't want to hear the negative things about her, right yeah, which is hard, like you don't ever want to hear for sure your partners say things they don't like about you Uh-huh.
Speaker 2:So at that point the counselor was like I think we should do separate sessions because I don't feel like this is productive. Yeah, so Chris continued going to counseling and Lisa kind of stopped. Okay, but Chris went to counseling because he really wanted to work on himself and the counselor had recommended that in periods of fights that Chris just find a way to walk away and cool down, because he did admit to her that he had a temper and had a tendency to yell, and Lisa had mentioned in their sessions that he would scream very, very loudly and Would intimidate her because he was so big.
Speaker 2:Yeah and he was like six, four, two hundred and something pounds and she's like five. I think she's like five, two, like a hundred and ten pounds. Okay, tiny Okay and so the counselor had just recommended that you walk away and just kind of cool down so that you don't make her feel Scared right, because she had mentioned all of this to the counselor that he made her feel very scared.
Speaker 2:Okay and he did own up to his anchor and said you know, I can understand that when I get upset Due to her much smaller size, that she would be intimidated when I yell and like stand over her in an argument.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so he was trying to find other coping mechanisms. Okay, and when? So when that night, when everything got heated in the car, lisa was screaming at him. He was screaming at her, he fills his temper coming on even more, and so he pulls the car over and got out. Now this is Oregon, and so it was like cold and icy. They had just had a snowstorm. But he was like you know what? I would rather just walk home and cool off, then drive home with her and keep fighting.
Speaker 2:Yeah so she? He was like I'm leaving you, take the car, I'll meet you at home. But Lisa got out of the car and started following him, continuing to yell at him. Okay and so she grabbed his arm and, according to him, he tried to kind of shake her off and she slipped onto the ice and fell to her knees and then she got like cuts and and scrapes on her knees. Uh-huh but according to her, he like grabbed her arms and pushed her into the snow. Okay, well, okay.
Speaker 2:She got really upset by this and stood up and punched him in the nose Jeez. I gave him a bloody nose and Neither one reported the incident. Until four days later she went into a clinic to get checked out for her scrapes because her knees were bothering her. Uh-huh and reported the abuse to the clinician who she says she didn't realize had to report it. But of course you do if you have like a Thought that it's, you know, domestic violence. You have to report it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so they called the police and the police came and took both sides of the story. They took pictures of the wounds and Chris had two black eyes and his nose was still really swollen and Lisa had bruises and some cuts to her knees, lisa. So Chris ends up getting arrested because in Oregon if there's like a History of domestic violence reported and you can see injuries, somebody has to get reported. Okay, and I don't know how they decide which one, because they both have injuries, yeah, but it's, I feel like it's typically the man.
Speaker 2:It is typically the aggressor, so he he gets arrested and ends up doing like spending a couple nights in jail. And then, when, when it comes time for Court, lisa ends up not showing up to testify because she had gone back to Hawaii. So the charges are dropped, okay but it's still on his record right arrest.
Speaker 2:So Lisa did also call the cops and bend on several other occasions to report physical abuse. Lisa later reported that the police, when they showed up, acted like they knew Chris and some of them may have, because that's where he grew up.
Speaker 2:Yeah she said that she felt like they didn't take the report seriously and oftentimes Chris would take them into a back room and chat with them. She would hear them laughing and then on one occasion they came back out after she had reported and told them that Chris had hit her and choked her until she almost passed out. The police took the report and then came out and said that they just needed to get into counseling.
Speaker 2:Okay nothing else was really done. She felt calling the cops not only didn't help, but it made things worse, because then it would just piss Chris off. Uh-huh and so okay, the young son even remembers the fights and he said that when the fighting would break out, he would take his younger brother, dane, into another room. Yeah to get away from the fighting.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm so I think there is some stuff going on right. So Chris was coming off of a long run run of flying and had been gone for two weeks. He had been planning on coming home and relaxing, and he had also made plans with a friend to Help repaint a shed that was on their property. Okay, but when he gets home, lisa's like nope, I've planned a camping trip. I think we need to get away together. You love the mountains. I think this would be a good thing for us to do. Okay, so she plans this camping trip.
Speaker 2:But this was in October of 2000, and so Chris even told a friend that he's like I feel like it's a bad time because, like seasons closed, yeah, it can turn bitterly cold like at the drop of a hat. But since Lisa had already made plans, he wanted to keep her happy and didn't want to get in a fight on their time off, and so he agreed to go. So Chris ended up going to the campground, which was about 10 miles from one of the cities in Oregon called Enterprise. Okay, so he heads up to the campsite to kind of set up, and Lisa ended up driving Okai, who was nine at the time, to a friend's house in Washington. Okai really didn't want to go camping and her friend was gonna teach him how to make stained glass, which I guess she had done before and he really enjoyed it. That sounds cool to me, yeah. So he was like I don't want to go camping.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she makes plans for him to go stay with this friend. So she dropped him off. But this was all the way in Washington. So then she has to drive 300 miles, which is almost four hours, yeah, to the campground with Dane, who's three, to meet Chris. Okay, so in the early hours of October 9th 2000 Lisa showed. So that was on October 8th. So the following day Lisa shows Back up at her friend's house to pick up Okai, and it's like super early in the morning and Her friend reports that when Lisa gets there she's soaking wet, her eyes are sort of glazed over and she looked like she was in shock and very distraught.
Speaker 2:Okay, she ends up telling her friend that Chris attacked her at the campsite and tried to kill her and threatened to kill Dane. So Sheriff Rich Stein ends up getting an odd call that someone was wounded in the campground and requesting assistance. So when he gets to the site, everything is eerily quiet. There was a suburban parked at the site and some items sitting in a picnic table, as well as a tent that had been set up that had three sleeping bags in it. There was also a child, like shoes and coat, in the tent. But he can't see any people so he calls out for Like whoever called. Yeah, and no one answers because his report was that someone was wounded and needed help.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so he's walking around, he can't find anybody. Just below this campsite there's two trails one that's like a very narrow, like not steep area that goes down to like this beach right next to the river, and then one's really steep and rocky. So he heads down to the trail and walks the short distance down to the river and he sees a blue sleeping bag Sitting next to the river and it appears like someone is inside of it. Okay so he's like I don't know if this is the person right are they passed out?
Speaker 2:like he doesn't know what's going on, and it's one of the mummy bags that like kind of pulls up over your head, okay, right, and so he gets down to the bag and all he can see is blonde hair that's matted with blood. Oh, so he checks for a pulse, but the body is completely cold and stiff and there's no pulse oh.
Speaker 2:There are signs of a struggle at the campground, there are some bottles that had been knocked off the picnic table and there's a headlamp laying several feet Above the sleeping bag, like it had been thrown off. Okay. There's also a substance that appears to be some marijuana, some rolling paper and tweezers in a bag by the picnic table. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:There's an empty whiskey bottle and a couple of other partially empty liquor bottles. There are three sets of footprints in the sand one is large that appears to be a man, one is small that appears to be either a female or a small man, and one is a toddler. Okay, there's also an area that appears to be where either a woman or a small man had kneeled in the sand near the river's edge. There's an indent of knees and one handprint. Okay, lisa claims oh and so the body in the bag is Chris and he's completely naked lying in the sleeping bag, but his body's covered in sand.
Speaker 2:Okay, so when police go to talk to Lisa, she claims that her and Chris had begun arguing that evening and Chris had been drinking a ton. She said that he had been drinking a lot and he had been using marijuana, and she had confronted Chris about his drinking and his temper and told him that she thought he needed to get some professional help. So this is not what Chris wanted to hear and it sets him into a full blown rage. He grabbed her and threw her to the ground and started choking her and held her under the water the cold river, like water at the river and almost killed her and the only reason he stopped was when Dane came out of the tent crying.
Speaker 2:So Lisa said he had also threatened to kill Dane that night and that wasn't the first time. She said that he had threatened to kill the whole family and chop them up so nobody would ever find them, on several occasions and at one point even threatened to kill them and eat them, ew. So she had started carrying a gun that her father had given her in case something like this happened about 13 months prior to the incident and she claims it was just for self protection. Once she calmed Dane down, she ran to the car and got the gun. She was loading the gun and the shot fired and she was afraid Chris would hear it. So she finishes loading the gun and she went back on the trail to check and Chris was in the sleeping bag and had torn off his wet clothes and put them on a chair because he was soaking wet too from their altercation in the river.
Speaker 2:It was pitch black outside and she couldn't really see. But she says that she thought she heard him rifling around trying to get out of the sleeping bag to come after her, and so she's terrified. And so she says I'm taking Dane, don't follow us. And fires a shot in his general direction just to scare him. So she says that she shot blindly in the dark in his direction and then she grabs Dane to put him in the car and then left the scene, terrified for her life.
Speaker 2:So she didn't have a cell phone. But she also didn't stop to call the police when she passed a pay phone. And then she did not stop in the nearby town of Enterprise either. Instead, she reports, all she could think about was getting to O'Ki to make sure that he was safe, in case Chris followed them. So she drove the almost four hours across state lines to Washington to pick up O'Ki, and when she got to her friends in the early morning hours she was still so soaking wet that when her friend hugged her, her friends' clothes became soaking wet, so she was like drenched. Oh, okay.
Speaker 2:Which a lot of people were like how were you that wet after driving for four? Hours yeah. So now the question isn't whether or not Lisa shot Chris, but whether it was in self defense or was it premeditated. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Lisa is arrested and booked for murder, one which is first degree murder, and she's taken to be evaluated at the hospital, and she did have 17 documented injuries, including a black left eye, bruises to her right shoulder, a bruise below her left ear, tenderness to her jaw, bruising to her left arm and scrapes on her hands. Okay.
Speaker 2:The autopsy of Chris showed one gunshot entrance wound to Chris's right temple and then an exit wound to the left side of his head. The bullet exited and was found two feet deep in the sand, and it had some of the feathers from the sleeping bag. Okay.
Speaker 2:He also has multiple bruises and two black eyes. The black eyes were thought to be from bruising, from the damage of the gunshot wound, which then just caused pooling around the eyes. He also had several marks to his back that looked like fingernails but also had a burnt appearance, and that's never really explained. He has levidity to his left side where the blood had pulled when he had died. He had two to three doses of a strong sedative, which was his prescribed sleeping medication that he took regularly, called Restoril. Now, some sources say two to three doses, a couple of other sources I said that it was Let me just get this because I have a pulled up right here 2900 nanograms per milliliter. So essentially it would have been closer to five doses, three to five capsules, based on what dose of Restoril he had, and he normally only took one to sleep. Okay, so he had a lot more than he should have.
Speaker 3:Yeah, either way. He's got more than he should have.
Speaker 2:His blood alcohol was completely negative, okay, and he had only very small trace amounts of alcohol in his urine, which to me, this was really odd, because a lot of times when you die, your body releases everything, so you defecate, you empty your bladder. He did not, and they said that his bladder was so full it was almost ready to explode. Oh, and which means he had not urinated in hours and hours? Yeah, weird. So this seemed, according to the autopsy and the blood alcohol and the trace amounts of urine, that means he had not drank in hours. Yeah, several, several hours. Yeah, this seemed odd, since Lisa's story mentioned that he had been drunk and had been drinking heavily right before the incident and the gunshot killed him instantly. Uh-huh.
Speaker 2:So if he had been drinking all the way, even an hour before his death?
Speaker 1:that would have still been something. Oh, absolutely, and there was nothing.
Speaker 2:I couldn't find anything where it mentioned if he had marijuana in his system. Okay. The bullet trajectory also didn't match up. Lisa claimed that she ran up kind of that narrow, not steep area of the path and kind of just turned around and shot blindly in the dark. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But if she was standing where she said she was, the bullet would have entered Chris's left temple and not the right. Okay, chris was lying on his left side and the bullet entered his skull in a way that the trajectory showed that it was fired standing above him. Yeah, it seems like that's two feet in the ground.
Speaker 2:Yes, so it didn't look like it had been super close range, like he didn't have the burns on his temple, yeah, but it was definitely standing above him, yeah, so this could have been correct had she been up on the ridge more by the tent. Okay, but it didn't seem accurate from where she said she was standing.
Speaker 3:I just have to say, if that, like if you literally turned and just shot blindly in the dark and you hit him right in the temple, that's some, that's some. That's literally my next shot.
Speaker 2:It's highly unlikely that she shot blindly, yeah, like so randomly in the pitch black, not aiming on your target, and hit him directly in the temple.
Speaker 3:In the temple, yeah, that's some like, that's like the luck of luck. Yeah, you just randomly shoot and you actually hit him in the head, right. The head shots pretty hard to get.
Speaker 2:That doesn't seem, and especially if he's lying down yeah, and he's mostly covered in a sleeping bag, Right, like that's some sharp shooting. Yeah. And she wasn't like an avid shooter from what I could see.
Speaker 3:It does seem weird, like if he is now naked and laying in a sleeping bag, you shouldn't really feel super threatened.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:Like, if you're just with him, you could just grab your kid and run, because he's obviously I don't know nestling down for the night Right Naked in a sleeping bag.
Speaker 2:Okay, Maybe having your gun in case he comes after you oh for sure, yeah, and then. And then shooting in self-defense, like if, if he's trying to attack you again yeah, but this just isn't quite adding up.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yes, I agree With the high amounts of restril in his system. It was highly unlikely. It was highly likely that he actually would have died through the night, based on the amounts, yeah.
Speaker 3:Like slow breathing and everything, had he not been shot.
Speaker 2:Oh, the prosecutor's theory was that Lisa had drugged him earlier in the day and given him extra doses of the restril, and then, rather than leaving him, she wanted to make sure he was dead, and so she took the gun, stood over him and shot him. Okay.
Speaker 2:Lisa claims that she had suffered abuse at the hands of her husband for years. He had threatened to kill her and her kids on multiple occasions and that she had reported the abuse and told everyone she could about the abuse. She was afraid for her life and the life of her children. She feared that if she divorced Chris he would still get visitation with Dane and since he was, he had threatened the child. She was unsure what he would do when she wasn't around to protect her kids. Okay, she also couldn't flee for fear of getting kidnapping charges. But Chris's family and friends say that and even they interviewed old girlfriends from his past and said that there was never a pattern of abuse or violence in Chris. Lisa had many people who say they saw Chris berate her, saw bruises and signs of physical abuse, and they also said that she acted completely terrified of him and her personality changed when she was near him. Okay.
Speaker 2:But Chris's friends report that wasn't true and that she often picked fights with Chris in front of people, which to me, it just brought me back to the cycle of abuse that you kind of discussed in our the ZZ case, where it couldn't have been that Lisa was picking fights trying to rile Chris up because she wanted to get the beating over so they could go back to the honeymoon phase, right, right, so people sometimes do that like we've discussed. Yeah, they do. While in jail, the jailers later noted that they had dealt with many victims of domestic violence and most of the women would still talk about all the good things they felt about their partner, right, the reasons they had kept going back how much they loved them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, most women in domestic violence situations can always find the good.
Speaker 3:Right, that's kind of why you stay. Is you have that like there's that hope when you? You stay because you have all the good, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Right. But they report that Lisa had absolutely not one good thing to say about Chris and it just seemed that she hated him. Okay, so trial starts and testimony begins, and several months before the incident happened, lisa claims that her computer was stolen from their bent home while they were in Hawaii, and she was devastated by this because, if you can imagine, she has. She said she didn't back up any of her writing and she has all of her journals, all of her screenplays, like so many things on her laptop. So she even filed a homeowner's claim for this and ended up getting a new computer but was in like a state of depression about this because she had lost all of her work. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So mid trial, one of Lisa's friends came forward and reported that Lisa had given her laptop months before the incident and told her to hold onto it. She didn't really think much about this and then, when everything happened, she was like I was so caught up in everything. And then when I realized like oh shit, I still have this computer, she handed it over, and on Lisa's computer are several things that can be considered very damning. She has multiple emails to her father about killing Chris and wanting to kill Chris. Oh, one email read drowning is the best in terms of detection, but I want a gun for backup, and then we will have to get a surefire disposal method. Both of us will have to throw the computers away, because, I just read, they can trace emails onto hard drives, but I would replace yours with a new one. She also had multiple screenplays on our computer, but the running theme of almost everything she wrote was about an abused woman killing her husband.
Speaker 3:So she had her dad.
Speaker 2:I mean, that email makes it sound like he's and the dad's the one that gave her the gun and self-defense. So her dad later comes out and says, like, gonna help her. The dad later comes out and says, yeah, she was emailing this because but if you look on the computer there's thousands of emails about how? I guess not thousands, hundreds of emails, I think it was like 278 emails, okay Talking to her dad about the severe abuse that she was suffering from her husband and that nobody would help her and she felt lost and she felt afraid that he was going to kill her. So she wanted something for protection.
Speaker 2:And Lisa later says, yeah, I fantasized about killing my husband. Most women of domestic violence do fantasize because that's a way out, but this is almost to the extreme. So one of her screenplays was about a woman which I mean, this actually sounds like something I would read but had she had been abused very badly and they went. They were both into surfing in the ocean and diving and on a diving trip she shot her husband in the temple with a spear gun and then watched the sharks eat his body.
Speaker 2:I was like spear gun that's intense and it was in the temple. Okay, okay.
Speaker 3:I mean, that's probably the best place to shoot, right? Yeah, that is something I would read too, though, for sure.
Speaker 2:So she also mentioned to several people that if Chris died, she would get widow benefits through his airline, which meant that she could fly for free the rest of her life. Chris also had a life insurance policy, and some sources say this was 300,000 and some say it was almost a million, so I don't know Because she would get their entire estate, which was valued at about a million dollars. Okay.
Speaker 2:So she had a lot to gain from his demise. Once this information came out with the computers and they realized, like how much stuff is on there. Her lawyer is not happy at all. She hadn't been up front with him and now it was going to be harder to kind of spin this their way. Yeah, he said later like had he known about everything in advance, he could have created a defense and had. You know, like look at all these emails that show that she's trying to reach out saying she was abused. But at this point he felt like everything was just more damning than anything.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so he's like really pissed about it and is like, listen, you need to plead guilty or find a new lawyer. Like I'm done, I'm not, I'm not in this anymore. Yeah. She had sold her house in Hawaii and already paid him upwards of $250,000. Oh shit, so she has no money to get a new lawyer, so she felt like she didn't have any other options left, and she ends up pleading guilty to manslaughter and was sentenced to 12 years in prison. Okay.
Speaker 2:Wallin prison and roll wrote this book and her case about her case called a heart full of lies and this book, I have to say, did portray Lisa pretty negatively. Uh huh.
Speaker 2:Um, I read this book and when it came out, Rick Swart, who was a journalist in Oregon, also read the book and he's appalled at how Lisa was portrayed and says that Anne Rohl didn't even go interview Lisa. Okay, Anne Rohl's book says that she it doesn't really necessarily say she tried, but she said she was unable to. So I don't know if Lisa denied interviews. I don't know what happened, but she did not ever interview Lisa. Okay.
Speaker 2:And Rick was appalled by this book. So he ends up reaching out to Lisa and going and interviewing her. Uh huh, and this was the first like interview that she had really done and he had actually known Lisa for years. They met when she was 17 and he was like 21. Uh, huh.
Speaker 2:And he really liked her back then, but then everything like they didn't really date. He just kind of had a crush on her and he ended up writing an article disputing Rohl's book claims. His article said some pretty cruel things about Anne Rohl oh, and also had a lot of info about Lisa's side of the events that detailed her abuse claims. Okay.
Speaker 2:So he said that when he first read about all of this, that was happening like because he was in it right then. But a different reporter covered the story, okay, and of course they have to arrest her, but she's not going to get any time for this because it was obviously self-defense, yeah, but Oregon did not have the battered woman defense, okay. And so the paper that he works for publishes his article and right after it's published, anne Rohl comes out and is like hey, this article was written about me, but there's some key information that Rick's for is not telling you. So just wait until that comes out before you kind of judge this. Okay. So the paper's like what the hell?
Speaker 2:So it ends up coming out that Swart had not told them something very important during his interviews with Lisa. He had fallen madly in love with her and the two were engaged. So when he wrote this article he had proposed to her while in prison. Oh, okay. So the paper was like this is kind of a big conflict of interest, yeah, and you should have disclosed this Absolutely. But Rick was like listen, I'm a freelance journalist, this is my personal life, I don't have to disclose any of this to you and it doesn't change anything in the article. I wrote this completely nonbiased, but I don't know that you can really be unbiased in this situation.
Speaker 3:Not if you love somebody like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no. So then Lisa ends up bringing forward a lawsuit against Ann Roll for the book, but after reviewing the evidence, the lawsuit is dropped. Lisa's trial attorney even came out and said that he read the book and it seemed very accurate to him. Okay, so there you go. Then Ann Roll ended up suing Rick Swart for defamation Uh-huh, and this was dropped, and then she was ordered to pay Rick and Lisa each $10,000. Oh, because apparently there's this thing about bringing frivolous lawsuits against the Protected Speech Act, like free speech. So, essentially, if you don't have like hardcore proof, like you can't do this, you're wasting the court's time, because he has a right to say anything he wants about you. Oh, okay, and I'm like well, how do you prove defamation then? Yeah, because you can't Also just make whatever you want about people and write it. Yeah, so I don't know Interesting, but she ended up having to pay him $10,000. Okay, so Rick and Lisa ended up getting married in jail in 2011 or in prison in 2011.
Speaker 2:And when Lisa was released on October 9th 2012, at the age of 51, she moved in with her fourth husband in his home in Oregon when Her kids. So there's not a lot said about where the kids went, but from my investigative research it looks like Don King and his new wife took both boys. Oh, both of them.
Speaker 2:Because Okai was his and it sounds like Dane was there until she moved back. And then it sounds like Dane may have moved in with them. Okay, he was like he would have been like 15 or 16 when she got released. Okay, so, interesting, chris's parents also had like visitation set up so he would come and stay with them quite a bit. Yeah, and Chris's dad ended up bringing forth this bill and I'm sorry I didn't even write it down, but they started researching because they basically saved all of Chris's estate to give to Dane when he is 18. Uh-huh, because they thought that's who should get it. Yeah, and there were there are rules against like Lisa couldn't get it because she can't profit from his death. Right.
Speaker 2:But there is a law, or there was a law in Oregon, that, let's say, something happened to Dane, then it would go to Lisa. Oh. And so his parents were like, no, yeah. So they ended up putting forth this big thing and got that changed. Oh good, so that if anything happens in that situation to a minor, the estate doesn't go to the other parents. Oh, okay.
Speaker 2:So it was like kind of a big deal. Yeah, okay, I ended up doing an interview later on, when he was 20, after all of this had happened, uh-huh. And he says in this interview, quote Chris was a great guy in many aspects, a really good stepdad, and he was a lot of fun. On the other hand, chris wasn't the saint portrayed in Ann Ruhle's book and Lisa wasn't the satanic person, the terrible psychopath that Ruhle makes her out to be, but in combination the couple were the two worst personalities to put together. They often argued and neither was willing or able to give in. He remembers how frightening and dangerous the physical and verbal confrontations with someone as physically powerful as Chris and as petite as Lisa could be. Huh, so I mean, he was old enough when he died he was nine, yeah, so he remembers a lot of the stuff For sure.
Speaker 2:Okay, so now let's get to kind of like opinions. Right Because a lot of people thought that that's why he didn't go camping was because Lisa had arranged for him not to be there, because he would remember what happened, for sure, for sure.
Speaker 2:And Dane could not. Yeah, so a lot of people felt like he, like she, planned this whole camping trip, drugged him at dinner, he ended up maybe falling into the river and she helped dig him out. That's how they got both got wet. Yeah, at some point I feel like there was something physical that happened, unless she made the bruises to herself, but it seemed like. It seemed to me like and even Chris admitted that he had a temper, yeah, and everyone in his life says no, he didn't. Yeah, well, it seems like there was some physical abuse happening.
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, and maybe too, like he started to realize he was drugged, Because at some point you're going to be like what the hell is happening. Why am I like feeling like I should pass out right now? And so there might have been a struggle once he realized that maybe she had done something. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And they had some sort of a, you know, struggle, but he was probably not stable, you know, and could have fallen in the river and or maybe grabbed her None of the reports of her injuries in any of the times that she's gone to the police and the clinic and Ben and had documented injuries. She always had bruises, like on her arms and stuff the one black guy when this happened but most of her other injuries are very superficial, okay, and none of them ever show choke marks.
Speaker 2:Right, the big thing was that he choked her and usually there's signs of bruising on the neck. If someone's choking you so hard that you're going to pass out.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's what I thought when she had said that one or she's like I almost passed out. It's like well they would have. There would have been some marks, so redness something.
Speaker 2:What are your thoughts about it?
Speaker 3:I think she's a liar and she killed him. I mean she, she was capable of faking amnesia Right, like just to get out of a relationship or whatever.
Speaker 2:Yikes Like that is cuckoo and there's crazy pants central man.
Speaker 3:Too many stories that I have read and watched where the women claim that their significant other is abusive in order to have someone help them, murder them or whatever to get out of this relationship instead of just, yeah, leaving.
Speaker 2:But I just I think she has a history of some not stable mental it's hard right, because if you look at her past, she has claimed victim so many times that it's hard to believe, but also to play devil's advocate. We've also talked about how people who are abused typically find abusers For sure. Yeah, so could this all be true? Sure, do I think Chris abused her? I do. I do think that there were some physical altercations and he probably hit her. Yeah, do I think that it was as bad as she portrayed? No, but you never know what's going on behind closed doors. Or was he really threatening to kill her and the kids? I do think that this was a planned murder. I don't think it was a spur of the moment self-defense.
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 2:Based on the autopsy and him not being drunk and him being drugged. I think it was planned and she planned the whole trip. Everything, I think, was very planned. But did she think that that was her only option? Maybe, yeah, but I don't think it was like a spur of the moment self-defense thing. No, we also have to remember in victim mentality or people who have mental things going on, which she, in my opinion, absolutely does yeah, they also take a situation and spin it in their head and make it seem a lot worse than it is.
Speaker 2:So in her mind she maybe did feel very, very threatened by Chris. Yeah, Maybe she did really feel like he was going to chop them up into little pieces and bury them or eat them. I mean, maybe that's.
Speaker 3:I don't know. I think that's. I personally think those were probably made up stories. I think there are people who can bring out kind of the worst in you and an argument, and I think she might have been that personality type that is able to kind of do that, maybe to someone else not that it's an excuse, do I think? I don't know if he necessarily hit her, but maybe there was grabbing and pushing that went into it. Yeah, I feel like she might have been, like she was so manipulative and she may have. It's like, I don't know, it's almost like she would want that to happen, so she could be the victim and this whole her whole life, everything is just against you know people. It's like just against her, against her. I think I don't know, I think she's a liar. I don't. I wouldn't trust her with anything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm kind of somewhere in the middle, like I feel like she's at one end of the extreme and all of Chris's family and friends are at the other, and I think it's probably some.
Speaker 3:It's hard for sure, I think, for someone to be like, yeah, I'm sure he was a little abusive or a little this way or whatever, because he may not have ever been before her. Like that's the thing is, what I'm saying is like she she triggered something, I think yeah, with her personality and the way that like or just their personality together like Okai mentioned, just wasn't a good combination, yeah and so there was no yin to the yang.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, so he had never been that way with anyone else. And then you know like it's not typical for his personality, but she definitely could, just the way that sometimes it's a way people fight and you can't like you know, you kind of match their level. That's I. Yeah, I don't think. I think she's got some mental stuff for sure. I just can't get past the faking amnesia, like that's so bizarre to me.
Speaker 2:I know it's full months out there to like. Who has time for that?
Speaker 3:Like also to, I do think I don't think this was a self defense and that it was very planned. And I don't care how little your kid is, she took him with like that's shitty. Yeah. That causes some sort of traumatic response to the body, whether he ever remembers it or not. Yeah, like that's shitty. You don't take your kid with you to go commit a murder.
Speaker 2:It's sad. It's really really sad All around. This is just like a terrible situation and that but she.
Speaker 3:I just can't. Yeah, she's constantly got a man. She has to have a man and she's able. It's like men that are, you know, narcissists and stuff. They're very charming. Women are drawn to them. They always really like them. They're you know, people like them in general, Like they're charismatic, they're they seem really nice, Everyone you know, and she's the same. She's only it's a woman and she's able to draw people in and be very and I guess it was the same in prison too.
Speaker 2:They called her surfer and she like started doing all these like meditation and yoga retreats and just like helping everyone out and being like the voice of of domestic violence, which I think a lot of people in that situation need. She was just yeah. For sure you watch interviews of her that she's done since she's been in prison. There's like some YouTube interviews you can go watch, and it does sound like she's telling the truth, oh, like. It's just one of those things where it's like.
Speaker 2:They're so good at it, though this situation is so hard because I do think that there was, I do think there was some stuff going on. Oh yeah, for sure. And you just never know people's perception. For sure.
Speaker 2:I don't know, in hearing about Chris it's like I don't think he would ever have killed her. No, I don't think he would have either. But a lot of people like think of the ZZ one, like how many people knew about that abuse and she couldn't get help and he did end up killing her. Yeah. But she went like when they were together at parties and stuff. People are like, oh, they were such a great couple, they just seemed happy. I never saw him yell at her.
Speaker 3:I never saw his family was definitely yeah, and so you just don't know, you just don't know, you don't. So it's tricky.
Speaker 2:It is, and if she really was like so abused that she was in fear for her life and her kids' lives, then it makes me feel bad that she had to do 12 years in prison for killing him. I think most of the time you hope that women I mean I think women's usually get some time, but usually maybe a couple years. Yeah, and that's what she expected, not 12. Oh for sure, yeah, but just everything that goes into it. It's like you look at her past and she claimed how many times people have been sexually abusive to her and it just seemed like she was always the victim of something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so is she one of those people who really is always a victim, because she portrays that in people you know, abusers find victims. Or is she making it up? Yeah, we'll never know, nope.
Speaker 3:So never ever.
Speaker 2:I'm curious to see where you guys land on this.
Speaker 3:It'd be interesting if you guys would you should definitely let us know on one of our social media Socials.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all right, should we get to our soul cleanse, yeah, okay, I might not make it through this one without laughing, but there is a professional ice hockey team in Pennsylvania called the Hershey Bears and every year they put on. It's like for charity, where on one game they, as soon as they score, everyone throws teddy bears on the ice, and they said that this year they hit their record. So it says a professional ice hockey team in Pennsylvania broke a franchise record last week, not for goals scored, but for the number of teddy bears tossed onto the ice by fans to help local kids. The plush pandemonium broke out in the second period as the Hershey Bears scored a goal to trigger the annual teddy bear toss that collects toys for charity. While the announcer screamed, let the sweet cuddly mayhem commence. The exuberant downpour of plushies began four minutes into the second period at the giant center last week, with 74,599 stuffed toys raining down.
Speaker 3:Who counted those?
Speaker 2:first of all, I don't know it's, it's nuts so many. And they can watch the video and we were like holy crap. Like as soon as they score, he says the announcer makes that comment and then bears and stuffed animals are just like flying everywhere and the people in the front row are just like getting belted.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Well, cause you know, like in hockey games, there's the glass right, so like between the first row and the glass it's just filled with teddy bears, because you know people aren't making them all onto the ice.
Speaker 2:It looks like they're gonna drown.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they're like people like with up to their necks in these teddy bears and they're trying to throw these. It's insane. Like so many. And there's like those one bears that are like life's, like giant, like human size bigger, and then people. I think being thrown out there Like it's, I mean it's cool, it's insane, but it's nuts, yeah.
Speaker 2:And who cleaned it up and who counted that I would not want that job and they said the events surpassed the club's previous record of 67,309 teddies man Collected last year for a donation to more than 35 local charities as part of the club's Hershey Bears Cares program. Hershey Bears Cares. Hershey Bears Cares. Hershey Bears.
Speaker 2:Since its inception in 2001, the tradition has collected nearly a half a million cuddly creatures for children in need. Oh, and it was actually pretty cool to watch the video it is. Yeah, it's just like kind of funny because people are just getting belted with teddy bears, yeah, and they're like front rows drowning in stuffed animals, yeah.
Speaker 3:It's so many of them, though, but it's cool, yeah All right?
Speaker 2:Well, please go follow us on all of our social media. We have Facebook, Instagram and TikTok. We have Twitter as well, but we don't really use it, so if someone wants to teach us how to learn.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I can't give them Twitter. I'm not good that way, yeah.
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