Could the twisting narrative of a novelist's life hold the key to a real-life mystery? This week's episode peels back the layers of Michael Peterson's world, from his fervent advocacy for military involvement in Vietnam to the depths of a family tragedy that would stun a community. Lindsay and I, offer a candid look at family dynamics, the unforeseen challenges that test our bonds, and how a single December night's harrowing events unfolded, leaving us with more questions than answers.
As the Peterson home brims with the complexities of a blended family, we wade through the turbulence of Michael's post-retirement ventures and his contentious foray into local politics. The idyllic facade of Michael and Kathleen Peterson's life is shattered by an incident that transfigures their home from a cinematic backdrop into a real-life crime scene. We explore the intricacies of that fateful evening with each element a potential clue in the puzzle of Kathleen's untimely death.
Then, the conversation takes a turn toward the enigmatic details of the case, as we scrutinize the perplexing autopsy report and the fluctuating loyalties it incites. Kathleen's death leaves us grappling with the significance of her injuries, Michael's secret life, and the financial pressures that loom over the Peterson household.
Thanks for all the support!! Please follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Tik Tok, or email us, and remember we now have a Patreon!!
patreon.com/sinnersamongsaintspodcast
sinnersamongsaintspodcast@gmail.com
Tik Tok @sinnersamongsaints
Could the twisting narrative of a novelist's life hold the key to a real-life mystery? This week's episode peels back the layers of Michael Peterson's world, from his fervent advocacy for military involvement in Vietnam to the depths of a family tragedy that would stun a community. Lindsay and I, offer a candid look at family dynamics, the unforeseen challenges that test our bonds, and how a single December night's harrowing events unfolded, leaving us with more questions than answers.
As the Peterson home brims with the complexities of a blended family, we wade through the turbulence of Michael's post-retirement ventures and his contentious foray into local politics. The idyllic facade of Michael and Kathleen Peterson's life is shattered by an incident that transfigures their home from a cinematic backdrop into a real-life crime scene. We explore the intricacies of that fateful evening with each element a potential clue in the puzzle of Kathleen's untimely death.
Then, the conversation takes a turn toward the enigmatic details of the case, as we scrutinize the perplexing autopsy report and the fluctuating loyalties it incites. Kathleen's death leaves us grappling with the significance of her injuries, Michael's secret life, and the financial pressures that loom over the Peterson household.
Thanks for all the support!! Please follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Tik Tok, or email us, and remember we now have a Patreon!!
patreon.com/sinnersamongsaintspodcast
sinnersamongsaintspodcast@gmail.com
Tik Tok @sinnersamongsaints
Hey guys, I'm Megan and I'm Lindsay, and welcome to another week of Centers Among Saints.
Speaker 3:I don't know why I was thinking that we were pausing there for a minute and I don't like my brain just like is just catching up right now. So you know, it's been one of those weeks, because when I listened today, we did our intro and then it was like our music played, so in my mind we just paused right there and so I just stopped talking.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I actually did mix it up and I threw our intro in the beginning, I know I was gonna tell you I liked it and then and then and then yeah, but then in my I forgot-.
Speaker 3:In my brain. I was just like playing my music, our music, in my head after that intro so yeah, if we had a cool enough mixer.
Speaker 1:That's what I would like to do is to do that, yes, but I'm sure I could probably figure it out and then it would be nice, because it would be nice if we would play and then we could like naturally transition instead of like it being thrown in there. But yeah, I did change it up, thought it would be kind of a good way to do it, yeah. Oh yeah, I liked it.
Speaker 3:How's your week? It's Then a rough one, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And today was like such crap weather too.
Speaker 3:It's been really rainy and like cold and just dreary, yeah. And then we got some bad news today that we've had two deaths in our family. Actually today. Yeah, and so it's been a little hard Right.
Speaker 1:send good, positive vibes to Lindsay and her husband.
Speaker 3:So I need all the vibes, please, yeah that's so hard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Life is so unexpected and it's hard to live your day to day like that.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like you know, like live it like it's your last day. But when you lose people it kind of brings I think, for me at least into the forefront of like it's how important it is.
Speaker 3:It's how important it is it just makes me want to, like, call people that I haven't talked to in a while and, just you know, tell them that I love them. Yeah, so I love you guys. Oh, and thank you for continuing to support us and listen to us yeah, are we ready. I am already.
Speaker 1:This is a good freaking case. It's also going to be a two-pada, so hold on for that. The break between the two parts is kind of just like a random place because it was hard to find like a good ending point that all just kind of flows together. So just you know. But we're going to record both of them today. You'll at least get the full story today.
Speaker 3:Well, lucky me. I'm sorry for you guys. You guys will have to wait, but if you go sign up for our Patreon, you could get it Friday and then Tuesday. Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:You would get it early. Just think about that. Yeah, $10 tier, you get the Intent, the episodes, early. So and ad-free.
Speaker 3:Yeah, go sign up for the so check it out cost of a coffee?
Speaker 1:Yeah, $10 a month, come on.
Speaker 3:Come on. You can do it yeah.
Speaker 1:All right, ready, ready ready. Ready.
Speaker 3:Tim.
Speaker 1:So Michael Peterson was born on October 23, 1943, near Nashville, Tennessee. He attended Duke University where he got his bachelor's degree in political science. I don't even know what that really is Political science.
Speaker 1:Poli sci. That's all I know. Yeah, and there's like people that get it, but I'm like I don't even know, like what exactly is just politics? Is that all of it? Like I don't even know what it is, like literally don't know what it is. So political science, there you go. Yay Poli sci. After graduation, he took a civilian job with the US Department of Defense, where he researched arguments supporting increased military involvement in Vietnam. Oh, I don't know exactly, like that's all I could find, that's like your job?
Speaker 3:is you just research arguments?
Speaker 1:I don't know. I guess political science, Maybe that like leads into like I think that's what you do. I don't even know.
Speaker 3:Like I don't know what that degree is.
Speaker 1:Science to back up politics. Yeah, so that's kind of what he did. Okay, in 1965, he married Patricia Peterson, who was a school teacher, and they had two sons, clayton and Todd. And in 1968, michael enlisted in the Marines. So at this point he was 25. And what year is this? 1968. Okay, and he served in Vietnam but was discharged four years later after a car accident left him with a permanent disability. During his military days, the couple lived in Germany where they befriended another American military couple that went by the name well, not went by the name. They were.
Speaker 3:Elizabeth, they didn't just go by these names randomly. They went by the name. This is their secret name.
Speaker 1:This is just their names, just regular names Elizabeth and George Ratliff. The Ratliffs had two daughters named Martha and Margaret, and in 1983, when Margaret was just two and Martha was only a few months old, George was killed in the line of duty in Granada. I know Terrible huh.
Speaker 3:That is terrible, Awful.
Speaker 1:So after this Patricia moved to a home that was next to the Peterson so they could help her with the girls. They would help drive her around, get the kids that they needed to go somewhere, help her like at night time they would help you know, because at this point Michael's essentially retired. Yeah. Because he's been injured and is home most of the time, and so, yeah, they really like kind of just stepped in and helped her out a ton.
Speaker 3:That's really nice With the girls. I know they sound like.
Speaker 1:You all need those people in your life, especially in like a time like that, and you're like a new mom yeah, like you have two kids, but you've only been a mom for two years Like it's so new still I can't even imagine.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you're figuring everything out and then you lose your person.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, just months after having your baby. Ugh.
Speaker 1:And then you're like you're so tired. But tragically, in 1985, the body of Elizabeth was found by her nanny at the bottom of her stairs. Elizabeth's cause of death was an interest or a rebroad interest or rebroad, that was hard for me to say Hemorrhage. And this was determined by not just one doctor but three doctors. So there was one German doctor and then two American doctors One of them was military that looked into her death and did autopsies and found that that's what she had died of. Wait, and who's this?
Speaker 1:Elizabeth, oh, so the mother of the two little girls, oh, wow, okay. So friends of Elizabeth had even stated that in the weeks leading up to her death she had been complaining a ton about having headaches. Oh no, so now, in the event that something was to happen to both George and Elizabeth, they had left their entire estate and the girls to Michael and Patricia Peterson, right.
Speaker 3:And how old are their kids at this point?
Speaker 1:Michael, and yeah, you know what. I don't even yeah, they're boys and they're younger. They're younger, but I'm not sure. Probably. Well, they're actually the kids they're actually so maybe like nine and seven, okay, right around that age, okay.
Speaker 3:And then the girls are younger, and then the girls are little. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, so they take the estate, they take the girls and just go about life. But shortly after this happens Michael and Patricia end up divorcing. So Michael takes the two girls and Patricia keeps the couples two sons and Michael returns to the United States, settling in Durham, North Carolina. In 1986, Michael met Kathleen.
Speaker 3:And the, she just stays in Germany.
Speaker 1:She's a school teacher in Germany, so she just stays there and they separate the kids. Okay, he takes the two girls that are not even his, that's so weird and she keeps the boys Okay.
Speaker 1:So in 1986, michael meets Kathleen Atwater, a divorced mother with one little girl, and Kathleen was a remarkable woman. She was one of those people who are just ridiculously good at literally everything they do. This was stuff that, like her sisters had said about her, was just that she was like annoyingly good at everything, just no matter what it was, but like also just like a super, like kind person too, like not know those people?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it's like you hate them, but you actually don't hate them, you know of them because they're so great. Yeah, but you're like seriously, Can you just like not be good at one thing? Yeah?
Speaker 1:So Kathleen was the president of her debate team in high school. She also took college level Latin classes. As a teenager she graduated number one in her class and went on to be the first woman Accepted into and to graduate from Duke University's engineering program Damn right.
Speaker 3:That's tough. Yeah, that's like not an easy degree and no in come on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay it's like brilliant. Her undergrad was in civil engineering and then her post grad because of course you know why not was in mechanical engineering. She then became an extremely successful director of communications for the large telecommunications company Nortel, and that they like sound familiar. Yeah, it did for me too. So it's just like a big telecommunications company, and there was even a conference room at headquarters. It's named after her.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh, yeah, okay, so she's the baddie.
Speaker 1:She really is like, yeah, and once again, like people said that the thing that one of the things they admired most about her was just her kindness and that she spent her life always doing what was right and looking after her family and community and she was a really big on like advocating for public school systems and just like Just all of the things that you need to have like a good community. She was just a great all-around. In 1989, michael, margaret and Marthra moved in. Marthra, marthra, marthra, margaret and Marthra Moved in with Kathleen and her daughter, caitlin. A few years later, todd and Clayton, michael's two sons, would come and live with a couple and they all lived as one big, happy, blended family for the next 14 years. So how many kids is that?
Speaker 3:five, five Only one being her Okay.
Speaker 1:and then the two girls, and then the four, the two boys, and they never have any kids together. Okay, so Michael had been making a living as an author after his retirement and a newspaper columnist for the Durham Herald Sun, and His columns had soon become known for their criticism of the Durham Police Department and the Durham County District Attorney, james Hardin. In 1997, james Hardin's a basketball player. This is James Hardin Jr technically, so he was a district attorney, now he's an NBA player. You know, he's the jack of all trades, right, that's? That's pretty like widespread skill there.
Speaker 1:In 1997, kathleen and Michael married. So almost ten years after they had they had met, and then in 1999 Michael ran for mayor of Durham County where he claimed that he had won a silver star, a bronze star with Valor and two purple hearts while in the military Dang. Now, he did have all the medals, but he did not have all the documentation for them. He claimed that he had received one of the purple hearts after being hit by shrapnel after another soldier stepped on a landmine, and the other one after being shot. Peterson would later recant those, stating that he received the one purple heart as a result of a car accident while stationed in Japan as an MP after the Vietnam War what? And according to the news and observer records did not contain any Information or mention of purple hearts, but they could verify the silver star and the bronze star with Valor.
Speaker 3:I mean, I feel like if you're running for the mayor and you know your life's gonna be under a microscope, maybe don't lie about those things. It's so terrible like, yeah, you shouldn't be lying about that shit anyway. No, because there are people that actually have earned those. Yeah, metals, yes, right, and coming from like a military family, yeah, that's like bad deep in my soul. Yeah, bad, bad, and that is not okay.
Speaker 1:No, no, so, outside of Michael's partial act of stolen Valor, because he did serve and he did receive some medals, but not all the ones that he claimed and not for what he claimed they were for.
Speaker 3:No, it's like you. If you have received some medals, just claim right or just? Say the truthful reason about when to be you were at Vietnam, like no one is gonna discount. Already a badass, you don't have to be more badass, no, no.
Speaker 1:So outside of that, everyone said that Michael and Kathleen were the couple to envy and All the children, including Michael's four children, adored Kathleen and said their parents had a happy, loving marriage. Now, on December 9th 2001, inside their modest 11,210 square foot home Okay, a home that was in the 1990 movie, the Handmaid's Tale, as the commander's home. What, yeah, shut up Commander's home in that movie in a I didn't know. There was a 1990 movie of the Handmaid's Tale because I've only watched the Netflix series.
Speaker 1:I've only watched the Netflix series too, I was like well, there's a movie. I'm gonna have to go watch the movie. Yeah, so I can see the inside of their home dang 11,000 square feet.
Speaker 3:I want no part of that.
Speaker 1:No, like the kids always talk about, like, oh, like, we'll pass these houses on the way to school. Oh, look at that big house, I'd love to live there. And like, no, you wouldn't, because you would have to clean more. Yeah, I'm just telling you, like, if we had a house like that, we don't have a maid, so you have to clean all of that. You're gonna have to furnish all of that. You're gonna have to like no, that's just too much say it all the time who?
Speaker 3:much too, and I'm like listen. If you want to become a millionaire and Spend your money on that house, you go for it. That is not my dream. No me either.
Speaker 1:I was like a bigger house, just cuz I would too. I live in a townhouse with six people, so like I would. We definitely need a bigger space, but not 11,000.
Speaker 3:I just want where. I just want something with a big Yard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's all I want. I don't even care about house.
Speaker 3:That's probably true, I don't, yeah.
Speaker 1:So, um, on this day they were just. Life was going as normal, according to Michael. He went to the gym that evening he came home, they rented a movie. At about 7 pm they hung out, had dinner, had drinks together and around 945 Christine, a friend of Todd's, came to pick him up and she said she saw the Petersons enjoying a bottle of wine and said they seemed completely normal.
Speaker 1:Around 1040 someone used the computer and Michael's study this was presumably Kathleen, as the user profile that was accessed was at water, which is her maiden name. Okay, and Also because Kathleen had left her computer at work that weekend but she had a big conference meeting the next day, which would have been a Sunday, okay. So Kathleen's colleague had also called her around this time to talk a little bit about the meeting they had the next day and to let her know that she was going to be sending over some files for the meeting for Kathleen to look at. The files arrived at 1153 that night, but they were never opened. Around midnight Michael says that they had grabbed their bottle of wine and their glasses and they headed out to the pool area to Continue their night of drinking and talking, something that he said they did quite often. Oh Sorry, but you thought you motioned at something.
Speaker 3:No, sorry, I was just scratching my leg.
Speaker 1:My peripherals all. So at this point in time in life, the children that they have are all technically adults. You have Clayton, that's 27, todd's 25, margaret's 20. Caitlyn's 19, martha's 18. Okay, okay, so they're no longer in those days of like small children or anything, so they really get to like kind of do whatever they want every night.
Speaker 1:And yeah, this like having drinks and like hanging out of the pool was like a very common Occurrence for them, which I think is like kind of cool because they're like keeping their relationship, yeah, and that's what you should be doing when your kids are adults, and then you would like, just want to be with each other. I love it. They're like hang out together and like, yeah, talk for hours have some wine by the pool and, like you know, Dinner and like yeah, that sounds amazing, it sounds great.
Speaker 1:So Michael says that Kathleen headed back in the house around 2 am To go to bed for her Early morning meeting that she had the next day, so she's gonna get like who am no sleep, but whatever, and she's older than us so she is 48 at this time.
Speaker 1:I don't know how she does no, but nor tell was the economy was not great at that time and nor tell was like their stocks were plummeting. It was very stressful at work, okay, and so she was really worried about since she was like the main breadwinner, like keeping her job, and it was a lot of stress there. So I think she probably wasn't sleeping great in general. Yeah, she was drinking a little bit more because of, like, her stress. Okay, which kind of a lot that went into that part of it. But Michael said he stayed out because he was smoking a cigar and he wanted to finish it. So he says about after 2, 30 he heads in as well. And this is when his whole life is gonna change.
Speaker 1:So when entering the home he comes across a horrific scene. So towards the back of the house is a narrow staircase, one that, like back in the day, would have been used only by the staff of the home. Okay, it's narrow, it's not well lit, there's only like a light at the top of the stairs and at the bottom, but like, not in the like stairwell itself. And this is where he would find Kathleen at the bottom of the staircase and there's blood Everywhere. Oh, no, like when you see the crime scene pictures. It is an Absurd amount of blood, okay. So much blood, okay, and she's just laying there. So, in a panic, at 2 40 am, michael calls 911 and I am gonna play that clip for you right now.
Speaker 5:I mean Calm down. In the ambulance. Okay, somebody else is this back in the ambulance. Oh. Please, please, would you hurry up.
Speaker 1:Okay. So there's two phone calls there, one at 240, and then he calls back again. Some reports a 248, some say 246. So just a few minutes later we're like asking them like where they are, like where they are, that's it. So when it she, you can kind of hear the 911 operator pick up again.
Speaker 3:You can tell that he is like Distraught Freaking out. Yeah, and you can hear the emotion in his race and some people try to like say that.
Speaker 1:You know, he sounded like really annoyed when she asks about how many stairs she fell down, because they're saying he didn't hit there, saying that everything was scripted right. He knew what he was gonna say when he called, but then when she asked this random question, he was annoyed because he didn't know what to say.
Speaker 3:I would be fucking annoyed too.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I ask you how many?
Speaker 3:stairs. Mario just fell down. When he's like lying unconscious, everywhere yeah. I don't know, do you want me to fucking leave him and count? Yeah, like, what a stupid question.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I get like there they've already dispatched you know ambulance and they're just trying to like Get any sort of information they can to help out whatever. But it definitely like as the person who's calling 911 You're, I would be super annoyed too, like I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I have no freaking clue, like. All I know is my significant other is Lying at the bottom of the stairs and there's blood everywhere. Yeah so get your ass here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's.
Speaker 3:I mean it's like a ridiculous, Holy shit so much blood, and she's just showing me pictures of this, you guys, and it's like it's. It's not like a little puddle of blood, no like.
Speaker 1:Everywhere? No, and you can like See like the bottoms of her feet are covered.
Speaker 3:She's got it like on her clothes, on her abdomen it's everywhere. It's like all over the stairs, all over the floor, and she had urinated All over the wall.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's everywhere and she had urinated, which kind of makes the blood pull out a little bit more, right, because it's mixing with the blood.
Speaker 3:And she's barefoot and wearing like white sweatpants and it's everywhere.
Speaker 1:It's so yeah.
Speaker 3:The bottoms of her feet look like she's walked in a puddle of blood. Yeah, oh, that's horrific. So, yeah, it's. Yeah, you see that. And you call the cops, can you imagine walking?
Speaker 1:in like seeing your no. You're like, like what happened, Like you know what I mean, Like you just were going to go to bed, Like Seeing that happened.
Speaker 3:I would be worried that there was somebody in the house that attacked her.
Speaker 1:Right. Because, there's an insane amount of blood. It would be horrific enough, no matter what, but like if you hadn't been home all day. And then you come home. Yeah, that's one thing, but you literally were just together, like in another part of your house. Yeah, a few minutes ago and she's like, hey, I'm going to go, and then you go to, like they go to bed, and then you follow them shortly after, and that's what you.
Speaker 3:I'm just going to sit out here and Run into Finish my cigar yeah.
Speaker 1:Wow, yeah, it's so crazy.
Speaker 3:I don't know what happens in this, but me hearing those for the first time. I hear raw emotion, yeah, and like a need for somebody to help them. Yeah, yeah, for sure that's what I take from that.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, me too. So paramedics arrive at about 2.48 in the morning and police begin showing up around 3 AM. So they all got there fairly quickly. Police began to assess the scene and from the amount of blood around Kathleen and the spatter on the walls, police believe this had to be more than just a fall down the stairs. It seemed to them that she had been beat to death, with Michael as their main suspect. Oh shit.
Speaker 1:So just after 3 AM Todd also arrives home from the party he had been at to find paramedics and police at his home, and police note that both Todd and Michael seem to be in shock, but that Michael's behavior seemed to raise a little more red flags than Todd's. Michael was pacing around the home, continually picking things up and putting them down. He was mumbling about emails and routinely went into his study to type on his computer. Eventually, michael was asked to please leave his computer alone. Michael did comply with their request to leave his computer alone, but not before contacting his lawyer, who showed up just after 5 AM.
Speaker 1:Now Todd did tell police that Kathleen was known to drink pretty heavily in the evenings and that she was also on volume and flexor. Now here's where the first theory comes about for what happens to Kathleen. So some thought that maybe she was drunk, she was on volume, she was on muscle relaxers and she must have slipped on the stairs because she was also wearing flip flops, tumbling back down the stairs, hitting her head and then subsequently passing away at the bottom of the stairs. But her toxicology screen showed that her blood alcohol level was only.07 and while she did have diazepam and cyclobenzaprene in her system, it was not more than her prescribed amount and that she'd been taking these also for the past few months and had no issues with them and drinking and whatever.
Speaker 3:Which you should not be taking those together and drinking First of all.
Speaker 1:I don't even know because I had flexor for my back just a couple months ago or whatever. I take one flexor and just go to sleep.
Speaker 3:I did it once for migraines because it was like my muscles were so tight and my neck. It was giving me migraine and I took a flexor one time and I wanted to sleep for like two days. Yeah, I took them the one day and taking valium and drinking a bottle of wine.
Speaker 1:I don't even know how. She took one and stayed awake. So that's good on you, kathleen, for being able to do that and go about your day.
Speaker 3:And how would she have gotten blood on the bottoms of her feet had she fallen down the stairs and just hit her head? We will tell you.
Speaker 1:Okay, so Dr Kenneth Snell, who was a medical examiner on scene, stated that he agreed with Michael, despite all the blood and all the suspicion from the police that Michael had something to do with it. Dr Snell believed Kathleen had fallen down the stairs. This is what he states in his initial report. So he does go back later and change his initial statement to say that she died as a result of a beating homicide.
Speaker 3:Oh, but initially he doesn't think that yes.
Speaker 1:Okay, this is a theme for everybody. Okay. So 11 days after Kathleen's death, michael was arrested for her murder. Now, at this point, everyone in the family, including all of the children, were on Michael's side, stating that he would never harm their mother. Caitlin, who's not even his like biological child, that's Kathleen's daughter, had even wrote an essay once that read, quote Michael stopped my mother's tears. My father, her original, her biological father, her original father, her OG daddy tore her apart, destroying her dignity and pride.
Speaker 1:Mike restored her. So even Caitlin who this is just her stepdad, you know like really loved him and really like looked up to him and thought that he was a great person, a great husband. He's a good stepdad. Like everybody, really loved Michael and thought that they had a great marriage. Kathleen's sisters also stated that they were extremely close with Kathleen and that she had never once complained about him. To them that's like 14 years, that's a lot of like relationship where like I love my husband's death, but I've complained about him for sure.
Speaker 1:That's just kind of normal. But I just seem like any see pictures of him. I'm like she's so cute and he looks like he just loves her, like it really like it's just this really loved each other.
Speaker 3:I really do so. Was there something in the autopsy that made it seem like a beating death? Well, tonight. Now okay.
Speaker 1:So after the autopsy came out, a few of these people would change their stance. So Dr Deborah Raddish, who's the associate chief medical examiner, was the one who conducted the autopsy. So she states that Kathleen had seven deep lacerations to the back of her head, but no skull fractures and no hemorrhaging, no brain contusions or any other sign of brain damage. Kathleen sustained scratches and abrasions to her face, especially around her eyes, as well as on her hands and the backs of her arms, but none of them were extremely deep or significant. There was no foreign DNA found on her or under her fingernails. There was a fracture to her thyroid neck cartilage, but no bruising around the neck and no peticule hemorrhaging.
Speaker 1:Kathleen had her own hair in both of her hands, most of which was pulled out by the root and appearing it had been pulled out by herself. There was blood covering the bottoms of her feet and two pine needles embedded in her hands Two pine needles Mm-hmm. Dr Raddish states Kathleen's cause of death on her autopsy as severe concussive injury of the brain caused by multiple blunt force impacts to the head, also heavy blood loss received as a result of beating, and she also marked cause. I guess on the autopsy report you can mark, like you know, undetermined or natural, or homicide or whatever, and she marked homicide. Well, shit.
Speaker 3:Now remember. This sounds to me like exorcism level shit, like she pulled out her own hair in clumps and there's all these scratches on her, but no DNA.
Speaker 1:DNA. It's not like she was fighting somebody.
Speaker 3:It was like she was fighting herself, like she beat the shit out, like fight club. What is happening?
Speaker 1:The first rule of fight club is you don't talk about fight club. So remember there are no fractures to her skull or any other sign of brain damage outside the lacerations on her head. Now, for those of you who may see or hear that the neck injury and think maybe she was strangled, remember there's no other signs of strangulation and in most all strangulation cases the hyoid bone is broken. But this was intact on Kathleen, Just the thyroid. So I had to look and see exactly where all of this is and it looks like the hyoid bone is farther up your neck, yes, and your thyroid cartilage is more like by your Adam's apple, like kind of down here.
Speaker 3:more so if you fill your Adam's apple and then go just below that, it's like a butterfly shaped gland at the bottom of your neck. And so there's like that little notch right there where your breast bone is, or your clavicle right there If you go up from that. It's between that and your.
Speaker 1:So there is a very convincing reason for her neck injury. So back in September of 2001,. Their youngest, martha had gone off to college. So the Petersons naturally threw an empty nesters party.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they did.
Speaker 1:Kathleen ended up drinking a bit too much and she dove into the shallow end of her pool, knocking herself unconscious and injuring her neck and back. So much so that the guests of the party were like literally thought she was dead and were like freaking out. Michael had to jump in the water and pull her out. So from this incident, kathleen had been wearing a neck brace pretty much up until the night of her death.
Speaker 3:And how long ago was this before the death?
Speaker 1:So she died in December and this was in September, so just a couple months beforehand. And this is where she got the flexoril was for that injury. So this very well could have accounted for the neck injury and the injury to the thyroid cartilage. And it says that thyroid cartilage injury to the thyroid cartilage is most often caused by either blunt trauma to the airway from a direct blow or from severe flexion or extension. So if you land on your head and, like you, know your head back or like bend it or wonky, like you can damage that cartilage.
Speaker 1:But after the autopsy came out, caitlin and at least one of Kathleen's sisters were no longer team Michael.
Speaker 3:That later came out To me that doesn't even seem like a beating. No, like that it doesn't. If she was beaten in the head to cause this, you would see other blunt force trauma injuries not just scratches Right Like this. Makes no sense. No.
Speaker 1:Zero, to me no, but it does. Later come out, the doctor, radish, also sat down with Caitlyn and Kathleen's sisters to explain just how it was that Michael was guilty.
Speaker 3:I'm sorry, doctor, that's not your job, not your place, deb.
Speaker 1:Not your job, deb, you know your role. You're supposed to be impartial, wow, so Okay, there's that. Now, in January 2002, michael is let out on bail to begin preparing for his trial with his lawyer, david Rudolph, and I love him, I think he. I'm not always team defense attorney, because it depends on who you're defending and what it's true Like how trashy you're being, but in this case I'm actually team defense and not team prosecution. Okay, okay so.
Speaker 3:Okay, also in February. I'm in so far with what I've been presented. I'm team defense too.
Speaker 1:And I do. I love that. I love the defense attorney. So also in February of 2002, French filmmaker and documentarian Jean Javier de la Strade and his team begin filming the well-known documentary the Staircase.
Speaker 3:I've never seen it.
Speaker 1:I've never seen it, I've never even heard of it. I listened to a podcast that had watched it. One of the people in the podcast couldn't finish it. It's just like, it's just really boring. The other one said it was like you know, 10 hours of like just a lot, okay.
Speaker 3:But Is it literally just about like a staircase? It's just, they just call it the staircase.
Speaker 1:Or is it the case, this case?
Speaker 3:So it's this case. A documentary on this case, Uh-huh.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so at first Lashrad wanted the documentary to be a complete look at the case from all aspects Judge, jury, prosecution, defense, like a whole thing, okay. But just prior to filming, the prosecution pulled out, leaving them having to work with whoever remained, and this was mostly the defense team and Michael.
Speaker 3:So apparently they received like I think that's not a good look for prosecution either, because if someone's going to do a full on documentary of your case, if you don't want it to be one sided, documentaries can literally sway you Absolutely In any way that they want. Yeah, and you could have a documentary done from the exact same people and they could present one side of the case. And you're like, oh yeah, they're totally, I totally agree with that, that's absolutely how it is. And then they present the other side and you're like, wait a second, now I believe this version, uh-huh, like it's. It's insane how much your mind, oh yeah, can, like I don't know, just go with what is presented to you.
Speaker 1:They bring, they bring evidence from like just their point of view, right. And so you're like oh, that makes perfect sense. But then you hear the other side and you're like well, that makes sense too. You've got to like, evaluate it yourself and figure out where you stand, okay, but. Um.
Speaker 3:So they didn't do themselves any favor by not participating in this no. Then they're just getting the defense side.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the defense literally gave them access to everything they said. It was like no one had ever and probably ever will again have this much access to like court rooms and meetings. That like literally every single part of everything that they did, wow.
Speaker 1:Was filmed, okay, okay, and the reason Michael was so keen to allow them, like this, unrestricted access was because he stated that he was innocent and one if he was guilty. Would he really want them to be digging that like deep into everything he was doing and being a part of all of the stuff with his lawyer and all that kind of stuff? Right?
Speaker 3:I mean I would if I was guilty and someone's going to do a documentary and not present the other side, you can follow along with whatever you want, guilty or innocent.
Speaker 1:Right, but if you're innocent, like you know, like you, if you were guilty, you wouldn't want them hearing like what you're saying to your lawyer. Right, because you might be telling your lawyer something, because you can be honest with your lawyer, but your lawyer is going to spin it to get you off on your charge. Right, because? You can tell them like I did this and that.
Speaker 3:You could have other secret meetings that are not involved in.
Speaker 1:But these guys were there for like literally pretty much everything, every little part, okay, so, um. So the other reason why he really wanted to have this was because, after being a columnist for the paper and criticizing district attorney James Hardin, along with the Durham County Police Department, he did not feel that he was going to get a fair trial. Oh, okay.
Speaker 1:Because now these people are prosecuting him on a murder Damn yeah. So he wanted, like everyone, to see everything and like be a part of everything, okay, and like I'm just going to be open so that he can get the fair trial.
Speaker 3:Was he the mayor at this point? No, he never became the mayor. No, okay. No he was never the mayor. I'm just thinking about this and I'm like, oh no.
Speaker 1:I think once they found out his lies, they were like okay, we don't think we want you as mayor Now, sometime prior to the trial beginning, the prosecution asked to have the body of Elizabeth Ratliff exhumed and reexamined, because they both died at the bottom of stairs, mm-hmm. Oh, they didn't want to accuse Michael of Elizabeth's death but, rather use it as evidence of an incident where he did the same thing as he did to Kathleen and knew how to fake an accident. Okay, okay.
Speaker 3:So she was buried in Texas, because at first I was like but she, didn't have blunt force trauma right Like she just died of, essentially like an aneurysm. Yeah, aneurysm, yeah. I mean you can't really fake that.
Speaker 1:No, okay, but at first I was like she's all the way freaking Germany. But no, she was from Texas, so she was buried in Texas. Okay. But she was brought to North Carolina. I didn't just exhum her body and have an impartial person, impartial pathologist, do the autopsy. No, they take her in a hearse, they drive her 1200 miles, or whatever, to North Carolina to allow Dr Raddish to then conduct an autopsy on her body.
Speaker 3:Okay, that's some bullshit. And she's been gone for 20. It was like 17 years, 17 years, yeah, almost 20 years. There's not much of her left to do the autopsy on. And if you're trying to show that this was a brain aneurysm or something else in the brain, that part is gone.
Speaker 1:No, they said there was only about a third of her brain left because it had been tested so many by three different doctors already. Yeah, in her initial death there's. Yeah, so you're already missing like a large portion of the brain.
Speaker 3:This is not going to be a great autopsy. No.
Speaker 1:Nope. So the defense did object, asking them to have an impartial pathologist, potentially just in Texas, reexamine Elizabeth. But it was denied and she was transported to Durham County, north Carolina.
Speaker 3:Damn.
Speaker 1:Now, once she was reexamined, dr Raddish changed Elizabeth's cause of death from a cerebral hemorrhage to blunt force trauma to the head in a homicidal attack. She literally put in the death the cause of death, that it was a blunt force trauma to the head in a homicidal attack.
Speaker 3:And until, like, you can't do that, I thought you couldn't do that. You can't change the cause of death once the autopsy is done. It has to be, it's supposed to, it's supposed to go to the original pathologist Right and then, or at least, consult with them and say hey, in light of new information based on what you said 18 years ago and what we're seeing now, what are your thoughts? On this. Yeah, I don't know. You can't just be like I disagree with her and the original autopsy.
Speaker 1:I'm going to change the cause of death, yeah, and I don't know if, because it was done originally in Germany, damn. It was different and also, as a pathologist doing an autopsy, you are not supposed to give a like, you're supposed to be impartial. So you say, like this is consistent with suicide, this is consistent of homicide, this is natural causes. This is undetermined. You can't say it was caused by a homicidal attack, right? You don't know, you have no idea.
Speaker 3:All you're doing is looking at a body and unless she had like full blown, like skull fractures, Well, and that would still just be consistent with a homicide Right.
Speaker 1:You don't get to say that, like you don't get to make the determination as to what it was.
Speaker 3:I just want to know what she saw, that she felt like she could change it from a cerebral hemorrhage to homicide.
Speaker 1:That's some shit. Yeah, I told you this is the theme of this case, damn. On July 1st 2003,. The trial for me. For me, for you. The trial for Michael Peterson, michael on charge of first degree murder, began. Prosecution stated that Michael Peterson had killed his wife, kathleen, by beating her in the head with a blow poke after she found out that he had been sleeping with male escorts. Kathleen also had a one point eight million dollar life insurance policy, so her death would be helpful in clearing the one hundred and forty two thousand dollar debt that they had in credit cards, among other things. Damn. They stated that on that fateful night, when Kathleen went up to use the computer, she had found emails between Michael and male escorts. When she came across this, she flew into a rage, confronted Michael and, in order to keep his secret from getting out, he murdered her. Prosecution claimed that because the blow poke is a hollow pole like object, it would have been able to cause the lacerations on her head without causing any skull fractures.
Speaker 3:No, no, just made that up. Unless you just like jabber with it, like I mean you could scratch somebody with it, right, but there's enough to cause her and a blow poke.
Speaker 1:So the blow poke is not the same as like the fire poke.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's what I'm thinking is a fire poke.
Speaker 1:So fire poke is what you use to like poke the things. A blow poke is just like a hollow tube that you would use to like blow into the fire, to like make it go more. Oh, OK so it's just like a long hollow. So like a big straw, yeah, a big metal straw. Yeah, and so somehow that would not cause the skull fracture, it would only lacerate your head. Oh, ok, ok. So the defense, the defiant. I don't know why I can't talk to the defense, the defense claimed that Michael Sorry.
Speaker 1:Michael had nothing to do with Kathleen's death. They stated that Kathleen had been drinking she wasn't drunk, obviously, because of her toxicology, but that she had been drinking along with volume and flexor roll and flip flops and she had slipped while heading up the stairs to go to bed, fell back down the stairs, hitting her head on the stairs and or the wall, causing the lacerations, and then died of blood loss. Now I'm going to touch a little bit on. I don't know that.
Speaker 3:I buy that either. No, the lacerations were on her forehead and seven.
Speaker 1:They're on the back of her head. It was just all on the back of her head.
Speaker 3:The lacerations.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're like on the back part of her head and on the front of her head and they didn't feel like this was lacerations like caused by her pulling her hair out.
Speaker 3:These were like deeper, they weren't scratches.
Speaker 1:No, like lacerations yeah.
Speaker 3:So to me I mean, I guess depending on if you hit, but if they're like in lines, I don't know how it, how it says their position, but if they're in lines, I'm not picturing that you're going to hit stair and then roll and then hit perfectly, stare, stare stare.
Speaker 1:No, so they don't think it was seven. They don't think that she hit her head seven times and the lacerations are kind of like in trident forms. Ok, so we'll get to. We'll get to all of what they think and why. Ok, so the prosecution states that on Michael's computer they found evidence of gay pornography and emails to and from male escorts. They also talked about how Michael had deleted files and messages off of his computer. Oh shit. So Michael says that, yes, he is bisexual and he did sleep with men on occasion. He said that he and Kathleen never had had like a conversation about it, but like she must have known.
Speaker 1:Oh shit, so at trial Brad.
Speaker 3:That doesn't look good for him either.
Speaker 1:No, like that's a total motive right there, right. So at trial, brad, who's a male escort that Michael had seen several times be read, I know, testified in that in all the years that he had been doing what he did, he never had a client that had talked so highly of his wife like Michael had, he said. Michael stated that, quote I'm married, happily married, with a dynamite wife, but I'm bi and I have an itch that needs scratched. He also just said that Michael just talked about how much he loved his wife and how great she was and had nothing but like good, positive things to say about her. Ok, michael's brother said that he knew Michael was bisexual ever since he was in high school. His first wife knew he was bisexual and so did his children. Michael apparently had books in his office about being gay and there there's one report that says his kids used to like still those books and hide them in each other's rooms and then call each other gay.
Speaker 3:That's not nice.
Speaker 1:Like total, kids like total kids. That's a good point yeah so if the kids, like, have seen these books and they know that they're there, there's no way Kathleen hadn't seen them, right, okay?
Speaker 3:but what their purpose was. Maybe she wasn't clear, I don't know.
Speaker 1:So he wasn't really trying to hide it. He just didn't ever like openly talk about it, say this is what I'm doing. But he also wasn't being Like trying to hide it and do it like behind her back, right. So, yes, he had deleted files off his computer, but that had been like in weeks leading up to it. If he was trying to be deceitful with these male escorts, whatever. If he had been deleting files off of his computer, why would he leave all of the male escort emails and files like on his computer? Like wouldn't those be some of the first to go Right? Because those were not deleted, they were just there in his so what?
Speaker 3:do you know?
Speaker 1:He deleted, just like there were some where he Um, because they were in debt. So there were some that he had talked to and I'll kind of get to it. But like people asking people to like help with money, and I think that was mostly because, like he, you know, kathleen worked a ton and he wasn't bringing in a lot and so he was trying to like Help alleviate their financial Burden, but without like kind of talking to her about it and so like those had been deleted, but like not you know, things that you would think if he was trying to hide something, especially when they said he kept going in looking like being on his computer that night.
Speaker 1:Okay, that he would have deleted, which he didn't delete any that night, like after the the Incident, but they would have been some of these that, like would show his motive right. But the prosecution also pointed out that the Petersons were in debt and that Kathleen had a 1.8 million dollar life insurance policy. So her death would pretty much clear up all of that Um once he got the insurance money. But Michael was so concerned with his piling debt and his boys that he had at one point called his ex-wife and asked her if she would take out a home equity loan to help him pay off his debts and that he just couldn't talk to Kathleen about it. Okay, this might have been true. But it might have been because at this time Clayton and Todd are in their mid to late 20s, but they are still fully financially dependent on the Petersons and Kathleen was okay to just, you know, cut them off and say it was like time for them to Leave the wings and fly, do your thing, okay.
Speaker 1:Okay. Can you imagine, though, like Can you imagine, if Mario's ex called and was like can you get take out a home equity loan to help me pay off my debts? No, no, hard, pass on that. How about you take out a home equity loan? Yeah, that's very odd, right like, uh, I Don't like, and me and my ex are friends and I don't want to take out a home equity loan for you to pay off your debts. Sorry, sorry you made bad choices.
Speaker 3:But no, no, that's like the last person I would ask is one of my exes, right? Yeah, I'd be asking a whole lot of people Before. Yeah, but Michael was not to be indebted to their ex right. Yeah, yeah, no, no, no, actually after your kids are grown. Yeah, no, her kids are grown ups.
Speaker 1:They can Not be financially dependent on you anymore. But Michael was not destitute. So, yes, kathleen was the main breadwinner. She made about a hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year, which would be about three hundred and thirty thousand today, damn, I know. And although her job was extremely stressful and or tell stock was plummeting, insinuating that they might begin mass layoffs, kathleen was so smart and she had such an amazing resume that she would have been scooped up like by another company in no time. So I don't think that would have been too much of a worry had she, you know, lost her job. Yeah, no, also, michael was not only bringing money in from his newspaper columns. He did well on the first two books that he had wrote, so he made pretty decent money off those. He was also receiving a monthly disability pension from the military. That brought in about forty five thousand dollars a year, which would be about seventy five thousand today. Okay, so like he wasn't destitute, he wasn't making good money.
Speaker 1:Yeah he wasn't like not contributing, yeah at all, like he was bringing in his own amount of money. It was just far less than yeah, what. Kathleen was bringing in. The Peterson's owned some properties as well. That brought in about five thousand a month. So yes, they had how do they have so much? Debt. That's what people do. They have too much money and so they're spending it where they shouldn't be a hundred and forty two thousand dollars.
Speaker 3:and credit card just credit card debt, yeah, like pay off your bills, peeps, yeah.
Speaker 1:So, yes, they had debt. Yes, michael may have needed to like stop funding his grown children and make them like Be there on people, but he wasn't really in need of money, especially when Kathleen was kind of like his golden goose. Yeah, like why would you kill her off Just to get like a short-term lump sum, when overall she's like Funding your lifestyle, right, she's bringing in all of these things, like she's kind of what you need to stay afloat? The prosecution also tried to say that Michael did the same thing to Elizabeth Ratliff for the money, but once again, he did not receive that much money. Yes, he was awarded the estate.
Speaker 3:Did they even know that they would get the estate and the girls? Yes, they did know before she died.
Speaker 1:Yes, I'm sure they asked him if, like, they would take the girls and all that stuff. And so when they say like, oh, here he, you know, and they inherited the Ratliff estate, it sounds like super fancy, but they were just like regular, normal working-class people. Yeah so they didn't get like millions of dollars. So outside of the house they he ended up getting about seventy thousand dollars in cash.
Speaker 1:Okay which is only gonna help, like raise the girls for a very short period of time. Yeah, and At the end of the day, like, is that little amount of cash really worth killing a woman and then having to take care of her two babies For the rest of their lives?
Speaker 1:No amount of cash is no worth, and if anybody, and if that were his motive, he most likely would have tried to pawn the girls off Once that was all said and done. Yeah, because she did have well-off relatives, or they did have well-off relatives in the United States. But he never, never did one point. He did call one of their uncles who was like a well-off doctor and just asked if he would help pay for their college tuition. And the doctors, like that was Completely fine. He said, sure, I'll help out. But he was like I in no way want, you know, to like not raise these girls.
Speaker 1:Like I they're my kids and like I still want to you know, I'm their dad but like I could use some help, like sending them through college, college, okay. So you would think like if he was just doing that for money, he would have taken the girls, gotten the money and then eventually just kind of Got rid of them, because why, would you know they were at this point, what?
Speaker 1:four and two, I think, yeah, when their mom died. And to top it off, that past December, before this incident, michael had received word that one of the books he had co-wrote was going to be made into a movie and this was gonna bring him a Shit ton of money and pretty much clear up all of the monetary issues that they were facing. Okay, okay, so at this point, like yes, they're throwing some potential motives out there, but there's not really a lot of evidence Backing it up, saying like, oh, a hundred percent, like that's why he did this. Okay, okay, so at this point, this is where we're gonna kind of stop this first one, and then in the next one we'll talk about the rest of the trial, kind of what goes on and what happens to him. Well, shit, and a potential other theory. Okay, so I.
Speaker 3:Can't wait to find out what has happening, because this is very confusing.
Speaker 1:It is, it's.
Speaker 3:I feel like there's no way they can convict him of murder of the on this. There's so much like this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, there's yeah, there's, there's just a lot, it's a lot and there's a lot of Like back and forth and a lot of Circumstantial and yeah, it's just there's like some stuff though that you're like okay, yep, he has motive, I have for sure.
Speaker 3:He has means he has opportunity, he has all of those things Right. Is it a good motive?
Speaker 1:Not really, yeah, I mean, for some people would be a hundred percent a great motive, yeah, you know. So, yeah, I mean they're, they're doing, they're doing their job for sure, old prosecution, they're making you think about it.
Speaker 3:Yeah so all right, let's do a silk, one, okay let's cleanse it up.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I found this story and I just thought it was so freaking cute. So the Headliners birthday preparations underway for America's oldest living person, and so Birthday celebration is coming up for a California woman who is the oldest documented living person in the United States, and I'm gonna maybe butcher her name. I'm really really sorry, but her name is Edith. She goes by Edie Rikogno Keenan Sakarelli of Willets, california, and she will be 116 Holy on February 5th, and so she's being celebrated with a drive-by parade on February 4th 116.
Speaker 1:You guys, we can talk about like nope, a little bit beforehand, but it's. Can you like imagine the shit she's seen? Like now literally World War one, world War two. It's so war or the depra, the, the deparition, god, I can't talk. The depression, the Industrial Revolution, cars, tvs, phones, computers like literally everything you learned about in school. That's like literally our history. Yeah, she has pretty much experienced it. No, every single bit of it.
Speaker 3:So I hope I never lived that long.
Speaker 1:So they say we're helping. The weather is gonna be cooperative so they can have her out and to view the parade and so that the people can see her. Sakarelli is a pillar in the community in her birthday in recent years has become a community tradition. Born on February 5th 1908, with Rick Cogno as her maiden name, sakarelli is the second oldest person in the world. The oldest person is a 116 year old Maria Branias of Spain, who was also born in California. Um, the Kenan surname comes from Sakarelli's first husband and our current last name is from her second husband. She's lived in California her entire life. I'm sorry, I know right. She's the oldest of seven and she's outlived all of her siblings.
Speaker 3:Does Edie want to be a pillar of the community? And have a parade in her honor for turning this age and like be taken out and like I have shown any spirit or like look kids, that lady is ancient or old as shit that Edie really wants? I have no idea, because if I were Edie I would put up my two middle fingers and tell everyone to leave me alone.
Speaker 1:So it says, a large turnout, as expected for Sakarelli's 116th birthday celebration celebration. I think it's going to be very well attended. Perisco said hard to put a number on it, but last year it went for a couple of hours.
Speaker 3:Oh, Poor Edie.
Speaker 1:I hope she enjoys it.
Speaker 3:If she enjoys it, then I'm all about this, right for sure I'm all about this life for her and celebrate every year and it's great, yeah, but for me I would be like, no, you're not gonna parade me once a year because I turned another year.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, for sure.
Speaker 3:So she is adorable, though she's so cute she's, so I love the name Edie.
Speaker 1:I do too. I think it's. It's like you just name, trying to figure out this person is so it's like a cousin, but this Um Perisco lady. So Perisco married into the Sakarelli family. Her husband is Lee Perisco and his brother's Charles, and those are her second cousins. It says that Edie Would ask why am I still here? I don't understand it.
Speaker 3:Why won't I die Operating me? I just want to be gone.
Speaker 1:She said I told her, edie, god has a plan for you. And she does say, like my conclusion, I just feel she's God's chosen one. I don't know, I don't know about that part of it. No, she wasn't. For what?
Speaker 3:Right, like literally to live forever.
Speaker 1:And she's so freaking cute though she's like. There's just picture of her and she's like on a black fur coat, a red hat, a bright red flower like red gloves like she is adorable doing it. But she's 116 freaking years old, no, and we have three days till she turns that age, so I hope she lives that long, I guess. If not, she's still 115, damn years old.
Speaker 3:So but she's awesome and I I wish that they would have asked her like what's the the key to a long life? I know when people are like I don't know, I smoked. Today and I drink I, I leader of whiskey, or? Whatever, yeah, no I never work out and I bake in every day and I just would love to talk to her. I just want to know what her seek like, what her secret is. So I cannot do that.
Speaker 1:I Want to live a ripe old age, but not a hundred and no, no, I think there does come a point, like for anybody, where it's like why, why am I still here, like what I am ready? Like you don't want to see your entire family, no, every single person that you know no, and potentially your children, like you were out living everybody, yeah, like just literally everybody, and I like right now like the thought of dying is scary to me, like I don't want to.
Speaker 1:I have kids. I need to raise them. I want to watch them grow. I want to be there. I want to do all that. But I think there comes a point in your life we're like you know what. I have done it all, I've seen it all. I'm good, my family's good. I live like I am okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've literally seen and the depression, and it's such like this hundred years, I'm like our entire world go to shit in a hand bath. Yeah, I'm done.
Speaker 1:I think you've seen literally pretty much all of the 1900s and now you're a quarter of a century into the 2000s. No, you've seen so much change. Like your toy was to be a rock. I would literally, my mom had a pet that was named Rosie and it was a roast pet all. There was a time like stuff like that. Yeah, I mean, I just I would honestly love to talk to her. I'm.
Speaker 3:I what I would love to know. She has like great stories and I just want to know more about her. Like is she with it Right? Is she like able to do things on her own? Because if not, it's like real shitty.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, for sure.
Speaker 3:I know some people want to live that long and they want to be like and there's people that still work out at like 95 and they're just killing it and they love it I see some people the gym that are so old and they like doing it, man.
Speaker 1:They're all hunched over and they're still like at the gym, yeah, killing it and I'm like man. I hope I do that when I'm not old. I'm like 40 and I am hurting right now like bending over and stretching, and that guy over there can barely stand up and he's like still here at the gym in like his slacks and his t-shirt, like still working out.
Speaker 3:I love and like silver sneakers. I just love it. Yeah, it's great for those people who want that. I think that that's so great. But if you're like not with it, like. I start to go mentally and I can't do anything for myself and I'm peeing all over myself and I have to do diapers and no, no, I don't want that life. No, I know. And my hope Edie is not like that. I hope she's like a spry, like 15.
Speaker 1:I hope she's just like a bitchy old woman. That's like I have done it all, seen it all, like I don't care yeah you guys are all crazy like, yeah, I that's kind of how, that's what I hope.
Speaker 3:But yeah, I saw it was cute in the picture.
Speaker 1:I have to look up. She's so freaking cute. She really is she's so cute and I love the name Edie. It's just great. It is cute. It's like Edie Falco the actress and I love it yeah. I love it All, right, okay, well, let's end this so we can hear the end of the case because I want to know.
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