This week Megan and Lindsay take you across the pond once again to take a look at the 1993 abduction of two year old James Bulger by two ten year old boys, Jon Venables and Robert Thompson. Denise Bulger took her eyes off of her baby for only seconds when Jon motioned to James to follow them. They easily took him by the hand and casually walked out of the Strand Shopping Center without anyone paying any mind. They take James on a 2.5 mile walk through town for hours, all while hitting and punching him and being seen by at least 38 adults. Not one person stepped in to save little James and in the end the boys took him to the train tracks where they ultimately beat him to death and left him lying across the tracks. Join us as we discuss what happened to James, what happens to Jon and Robert, and where psychopathy comes into play with child minds.
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This week Megan and Lindsay take you across the pond once again to take a look at the 1993 abduction of two year old James Bulger by two ten year old boys, Jon Venables and Robert Thompson. Denise Bulger took her eyes off of her baby for only seconds when Jon motioned to James to follow them. They easily took him by the hand and casually walked out of the Strand Shopping Center without anyone paying any mind. They take James on a 2.5 mile walk through town for hours, all while hitting and punching him and being seen by at least 38 adults. Not one person stepped in to save little James and in the end the boys took him to the train tracks where they ultimately beat him to death and left him lying across the tracks. Join us as we discuss what happened to James, what happens to Jon and Robert, and where psychopathy comes into play with child minds.
Thanks for all the support!! Please follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Tik Tok, or email us, and remember we now have a Patreon!!
patreon.com/sinnersamongsaintspodcast
sinnersamongsaintspodcast@gmail.com
Tik Tok @sinnersamongsaints
Hey guys, I'm Megan and I'm Lindsay and this is Centers Among Saints. Yeah, it is. Hello everybody, welcome back. Thanks for coming back.
Speaker 3:Yes, I have been dying to talk to you about this because I just saw it today. And I wanted to ask you Okay, have you seen this thing where the school is like under attack for having this fundraiser? No, the kids lick peanut butter off of people's feet. You have not heard about this? No, where? Okay so apparently it's in Oklahoma. Which Oklahoma?
Speaker 1:You guys, you're not helping yourselves at all.
Speaker 3:Okay, so I don't know the full story. I just saw like these brief, like clips of it, right. But then one of my friends, steph, posted this thing on her Facebook, okay, and I was talking about it, and it was like this Oklahoma school is under fire for a fundraiser that had students licking their peers' toes, and so I knew about that one. Well, apparently it's not the only one. What? Not the only one In Oklahoma? No, like other other places, why and I'm trying to figure out where this one is, maybe it's all in Oklahoma, but there's one that says that they're also not only licking peanut butter off of feet. Okay, I'm going to show you this picture. There's a video that I need to apparently watch. So, okay, this, and then this, and this looks like little kids to me and like grown ass adults. What is happening? Which is like it is.
Speaker 1:It's literally adults sitting there making children Suck on their toes. Ew, okay, this is. This is so gross A school district.
Speaker 3:Wait, okay, because it gets better. No, oh, where's the picture? There's one where they're licking like Nutella off of somebody's armpit.
Speaker 1:I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't. No, why? What is the fundraiser for? We're raising money. I don't know.
Speaker 3:For the hungry. Like what is? It's weird, right? I can't find the picture. Now I'm going to have to find it this school should be under fire.
Speaker 1:But I'm like what is happening? I used to get mad at Lily when Nolan was like like a toddler, because she'd be like lick my toe. And then of course it was like two year old or three year old, nolan would be like okay, and I would get so mad at her like stop having him lick your toe. That is so like degrading and rude. That's disgusting. And I'm not trying to knock, you can have a foot fetish and suck on your partner's toes or you want.
Speaker 3:It's like a race or something about who can suck the pee, the peanut butter off. This is the armpit one. Oh my God. No, there's some with Nutella and some with peanut butter where they're licking it off of somebody's armpit. Okay, okay.
Speaker 1:Those. Okay, here's Okay, okay. It can't even stop saying okay, this is not children licking other children's armpits or other children's toes, this is children licking adults armpits and sucking their toes. Yeah. And then there's a little district in Oklahoma, everybody, where there's a shit ton of adults who are pedified as a fetish.
Speaker 3:Weird ass teens.
Speaker 1:And they are using his fundraiser to get kids.
Speaker 3:We'll even pay you to do this shit, this dude and his face is blurred out.
Speaker 1:I don't know why his face is blurred out.
Speaker 3:Because he doesn't want everyone to know that he is sitting there.
Speaker 1:He looks like he might be a coach. He has a whistle around his neck, he has a moustache and he is sitting there with his hands, and he is a full grown man. Like arms behind his head and there are two children licking his armpits.
Speaker 3:And they're oh sorry, and they're like hairy armpits. Yeah, it's disgusting, that is, I can't. What would you do if you? Oh, look here's. Did you see the ones with the Nutella? Oh god.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's so gross.
Speaker 3:Those are both female, like teenage girls yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah Nope.
Speaker 3:And the guy's face is blurred out. But you can like kind of see Is this not like exploitation of children? You can see his face and just I'm going to go to the part and then it's really quick. Okay, but his face is blurred out, but it's like like his mouth is wide open, like he's enjoying it way too much. Okay, just watch it for a minute with the Nutella. Okay.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, nope, no, what? What is happening? That dude has a boner. 100%. I can't even, I can't even believe that we're allowing this to happen.
Speaker 3:No Country. How is this like 2024 and we're allowing children to do this If that was on the news.
Speaker 1:If that was on the news, it was like this man took his daughter's friends out of sleep over and had them lick peanut butter off of his armpits. There would be an uproar, okay, so just because someone's, there'd be some investigation. It's like money, this is not okay.
Speaker 3:This is not okay. This is a school sanctioned fund raising, fund raising. I want to know, I want to know, I want to know.
Speaker 1:The people sitting around the table trying to come up with a fundraiser idea. The person throws this out, dares to throw this out, and everyone's like that's perfect.
Speaker 3:You imagine being at the PTA table like that's a great idea. Hey Bob, susan, I got an idea what let's have our teenagers lick peanut butter off of your toes.
Speaker 3:No, and here's what's even better is, we'll make a race out of it. Disgusting, and then whoever wins gets the money, but it'll go to the school. It's a great idea. No, who at that table? They would have to have voted for this. That means enough adults voted to have this as a fundraiser for their children's school? Disgusting. And who gets in line to be like I'll pay $20 to have you lick Nutella out of my armpit? And who sucks some peanut butter off my toes? Disgusting. What the hell is happening in Oklahoma? I'm sure I'm not the only one who's ever uttered that sentence. No, you are not. But for real, what is happening? What?
Speaker 1:I just can't. I can't even. It's not even funny. It's so disturbing.
Speaker 3:I can't even like your reaction is funny because I saw it earlier today and I was like I'm not going to bring this up before, I'm going to wait till we hit record and I'm going to show her this. I can't, I'm going to be so raw because what the actual fuck is happening.
Speaker 1:I don't want to lick my own children's toes. I don't even want to lick my partner's toes. That's a sexual thing. But I was thinking, as a mom, you do lots of things that you would never do with anyone else. You pick your kid's nose because they got a bug. I don't want to pick my partner's nose. It's gross. There's things you do as a mom with your kids because you care for them and you don't want them to be whatever. Yeah, I don't want to lick my toes. I don't want to smell your armpits. I don't.
Speaker 1:I'm not even like our kids will brush, and there's been times where Cody's like let me smell your breath, because he doesn't trust that they brush our teeth, and I'm like I'm not smelling anyone's breath. I don't care if you've just brushed your teeth, I don't want to smell your breath. That grosses me out. So don't, because that would be like like with Nolan. I've said okay, have you brushed your teeth? Did you brush your teeth? He's like yeah, smell my breath. No, I don't want to smell your breath. Get out of here. I'm just trusting that you did it. I want to smell your ball. I smell my kids' breath.
Speaker 1:I won't do it but no, I won't do it, I can't. So no, I'm not going to lick anyone's toes, I don't want to lick my partner's toes.
Speaker 3:And I know people do. I don't know what the prep process is before this, but I have so many more questions because do they like wash the feet first or are they just like straight out of this sweaty socks or no socks and like dirty ass feet?
Speaker 1:But even if something's just been washed, it's still an armpit.
Speaker 3:With an hairy armpit. From a dude you like get a sticky hairball. That then like it's so gross. It's so gross, so bad.
Speaker 1:What is?
Speaker 3:happening and I'm going to send this to the savages to use as their savage of the week sometime, because they need it on this.
Speaker 1:This is insane.
Speaker 1:Well, I was going to bring up something too, but it was far less like. It's disturbing in a different way. Did you hear about the dad in Oregon that was lacing his daughter's friends smoothies at a sleepover with Benzo Diazapine? No, and the girls like their 12 year old girls. There was three of them. They had a sleepover. Michael Maiden is his name, m-e-y-d-e-n, 57. And he's accused of drugging three 12 year old girls at his daughter's sleepover last summer. They all like essentially called their parents like three in the morning Because I think of how they were feeling and the one daughter like texts her mom and was like I don't feel safe.
Speaker 1:And so they came and he like when? I guess, when some of the like parents shut up like he didn't want to let him in the house, he was like no, they're sleeping, like can't come in there, like oh yeah, hard pass creeper.
Speaker 3:What was the purpose of this? Like to knock them out and do things to them? I think so. I think so. This is why people don't allow sleepovers anymore.
Speaker 1:I know which is so sad because I, my daughter, does have sleepovers and it's always with a group of, like her girlfriends, and I have never, like obviously never run into this and I had a bajillion sleepovers as a kid and I like the idea of sleepovers, but I understand why people get.
Speaker 3:Why people don't yeah?
Speaker 1:Like Lily, does have one friend that's not allowed to have sleepover, so she'll come and she'll stay till like 11 or 12. And then her mom will come and get her. And so she gets to like the late nights, but she doesn't get to do like a sleepover.
Speaker 3:I think it's becoming more common, and this is exactly why, yeah.
Speaker 1:He laced a batch of mango smoothies with benzodiazepine and serve them to his daughter's friends.
Speaker 3:I mean for me it's like okay, is it? Because 12 year olds are 12 year old? Girls especially are just like giggly and loud and annoying and you wanted to knock them out to put them to sleep.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 3:So this girl, or is it like you wanted to put them out so you could touch? Them. I'm behind that part. Yeah, I'm behind the first one, because if you're just going to drug them to fall asleep, then there's nothing wrong with that, that one's fine.
Speaker 1:Now this is the girls alleged to police that Maiden was very involved with their activities during the sleepover and was constantly checking in on them and then interjecting himself into their conversations. Ew, he's 57.
Speaker 3:Very involved.
Speaker 1:He's 45 years older than these girls. No.
Speaker 3:Ew, ew, ew, ew ew Maiden no. So was it his daughter and two friends, or his daughter and three? Friends, so he didn't drug his own daughter. I guess not their friends, her friends, yeah.
Speaker 1:Maiden allegedly took his daughter and her three friends to get their nails done, before stopping on the way home to pick up pizza. Back at the family's lake Oswego home. The girls allegedly played in the sprinklers, went in the hot tub, took showers and got ready for bed at Mr. Maiden's directions.
Speaker 3:Stop it. You know he just watched those little girls run through the sprinklers and sit in the hot tub. Yeah, I hope that they checked to make sure he doesn't have a camera in the bathroom Like a camera.
Speaker 1:Oh no, enjoying a spa night together. The girls told police they spent much of the night in the basement of the family's tri-level home watching movies and doing facials, while Maiden allegedly continuously checked in on them. Maiden then allegedly instructed the girls to get ready for bed and made them a batch of smoothies with tiny white chunks in them. Didn't even like crush them up good, and a white powder sprinkled across the top. What?
Speaker 3:Like, sir, what is on my smoothie? Is this some sugar, like what?
Speaker 1:And then he's going to sprinkle some powder Right, and then he insisted they drink them. One of the girls alleged to police she complained about the state of her smoothie and that Maiden made her a second drink, again encouraging her to drink it. But the girl barely drank her smoothie and Maiden allegedly soon accused her of switching drinks with another girl. This upset him.
Speaker 1:After going to bed, the girl who did not finish her drink alleged to police that she pretended to sleep, as Maiden continued to come down to the basement quietly checking on the girls and watching them for extended periods of time.
Speaker 1:Ew but the girls told police that while she was still awake and cuddling one of her friends, maiden moved her arm from over the female's body and then separated them by moving her friends body further towards the opposite side of the bed. The girl was concerned and remained awake in fear that Mr Maiden was going to do something to her friend. Oh, the girl claimed that Maiden went upstairs and returned a short time after, once again removing the girls arm from her friend and separating them on the bed. She saw Mr Maiden in the dim light, place his finger underneath her nose as if to see if she was soundly asleep. He then waved his hand in front of her face. After Maiden went upstairs another time, the girl began to text and call her parents repeatedly, asking for them to come pick her up. Mom, please pick me up and say I had a family emergency. This was at 1.43. I don't feel safe. I might not respond, but please come get me.
Speaker 3:Crying emoji Please please pick me up please. Oh my gosh, that breaks my heart.
Speaker 1:So scary. One friend's mom soon arrived at Maiden's house and brought the girl home, where she woke up at her parents. Her parents then called the other girl's parents to alert them. The girl quickly gathered her things to leave. When she ran into Maiden, who was allegedly coming out of a basement bathroom adjacent to the room where the girls slept, maiden seemed drunk and she explained. He murmured and slurred a response but did not stop her from leaving. Round three and the other girl's parents arrived at the house. Maiden told Maiden they were taking their daughter's home. I don't understand. I'm asking the parents to come back the next morning because the girls were asleep, but the parents refused and took their children About 12 hours after allegedly drinking the smoothies. An officer said one of the girls still walked slowly and used the assistance of her mother for balance. Her eyelids were heavy and she spoke slowly.
Speaker 3:Thank God that one girl didn't drink her smoothie, because had she been knocked out too, no one would have known.
Speaker 1:Yeah, then I would have been the kid that would have thought it tasted bad but not said something to the parents because I you don't want to be rude. Yeah, like wouldn't have dared, and so like, good for her for being a kid. That's like. This tastes weird, like I'm sorry, I'm allergic to mango.
Speaker 1:sir Like oh you did to this, but 12 hours later and she still-. They found Benzo de Azepin in the girls' urine samples, leading to the allegations that Maiden drugged the girls the night before and then he came out of the bathroom next to the room they were sleeping in. So is there like a they need to check this house. Like is there like freaking pee poles everywhere? Seriously, that's disgusting.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Less than two months after the incident, Maiden got divorced from his wife of 16 years. She was like she's like um-. I was like where is his wife? Was she just like thinking he was you know being?
Speaker 3:like a good dad or whatever, being a good, attentive dad.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and just kind of like he was like oh, like I'll take care of the girls, Like you know you enjoy your night, Like I'll do the sleepover tonight or whatever.
Speaker 3:Then she finds us out she's probably like uh, it's really sad because for those of us who don't have like creepy ass husbands or like, we just want like to have our kids to have fun, yeah, and have like a good sleepover I think sleepovers like they were some of my most favorite memories.
Speaker 1:Oh my God.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And the fact that we have to deal with this kind of shit. How do you do a seance as a child if you don't get?
Speaker 3:to have a sleepover.
Speaker 1:How do you do that? Light as a feather, stiff as a board, I'm missing out. And then you have people's parents. I still like I cannot. I don't understand, obviously, any sort of abuse of a child, but like parents that prey on their children or like kids who are the same age as their children, it's like mind boggling to me, me too. What is? Can you imagine? If that was?
Speaker 3:your husband of 16 years no. I would feel so dirty every day Like how did I not see this?
Speaker 1:Then you start thinking back on your relationship, any little thing where you're like oh my. God. I wonder like that one time when you did this, or the one time when he wanted to do this?
Speaker 3:Why did I miss all of these things? And then you second guess everything in your life. Oh, yeah, oh yeah, ew.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I saw that randomly just a few days ago and I was like, no, like pin this for the podcast because he's a creeper.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that is creepy. I don't like that. No, gross, no.
Speaker 1:So it's creepy in a different way. Yours was super creepy In a different way, though. These parents these parents are putting their children in this situation. They're like, yes, lick that man's armpits Do it.
Speaker 3:Better with it, do it. We need the money so.
Speaker 1:I just want to know, like, what they're fundraising for.
Speaker 3:Like that's all I need to research it a little bit more, because I saw like a couple of clips on it, like there was something on the news too that was like Well, that was TMZ that you were showing me, because TMZ counted was like WTF Oklahoma. What's happening? Yeah, so I had heard about the first one that it was like the peanut butter, and then I saw that from TMZ and I was like what, no, what, nope, what is happening? There are so many things wrong, so much, so much is happening.
Speaker 1:So many things wrong.
Speaker 3:Oh, okay, well, that one story you just told us from Oregon, and you said it like Oregon.
Speaker 1:Did I say Oregon? Yeah, I'm pretty sure you did. Okay, well, I did not mean to. I did not mean to. I did not mean to say Oregon. I want to punch people when they say, like you are not from, obviously, this part of the country and maybe you did it, maybe it's my head.
Speaker 3:I was just like I heard it that way oh maybe I did, but it's Oregon.
Speaker 1:We don't say. We do not say Oregon on the west side of the country. No, it's Oregon. Yeah, it's not Nevada.
Speaker 3:It's not.
Speaker 1:Colorado. No. We don't rub some funk on any of these words over here. It's just normal Club, some funk. Colorado, nevada, you're a normal way of speaking. Nevada, you can always tell when someone's not from around here and they're like oh, in Nevada, like where do you take it like that? It's not fancy, nevada is not fancy at all. There's nothing fancy about this.
Speaker 3:It's the furthest thing from fancy, so let's not rub some funk on it. That was like the best I liked that a lot.
Speaker 1:Well, this kind of segues a little bit into my story just in that, like children being abused, taken advantage of, you know the focus of everything Gross. I for some reason have been stuck in England because my last case was and I can't remember the one before that was, but I feel like I've been across the pond for a minute.
Speaker 1:We've been in England for a bit For a minute and this one I've read about several times and I always just kind of skip over it. It is I will trigger, warn you it is children. All of murderer and victim are children, but it was. It's one of those things that was interesting to me. I read a little bit about the psychology of child killers because it's just so bizarre, right Like we don't.
Speaker 1:I think you see adults who kill and you see their childhood and then like they've had all this life experience. But when a kid does this and they haven't like reached all about like what, what makes them want to do that? Not that we ever have answers for that, because we probably never will, but it's interesting and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we're just gonna kind of jump into this, I'm gonna go over who the suspects are first and then we'll kind of get into, like, the story.
Speaker 1:So Robert Thompson was born on August 23, 1982. He was one of seven children who grew up in a reportedly dysfunctional family, riddled with abuse, alcoholism, unemployment and an absent father. One neighbor had this to say about Thompson On this street he was Master Jekyll and around the corner, master Hyde. Simple, as that Police Sergeant Phil Roberts said, he could easily portray himself as a nice boy and he had a good looking smile about him. The evil side of it would be when the questions were difficult. He had just that glare in his eye which is very hard to explain, a chilling glare. Along with his siblings and mother, robert was subjected to physical and sexual abuse at the hands of his father.
Speaker 3:I thought he said an absent father, so he was there for a minute and then he like pieced out and left.
Speaker 1:So he just abused him and then left Nice when Robert was fairly young still, and then left the mom with a shit ton of kids. So his father left in October of 1988. So he would have been Robert, would have been five, okay he or six, six. The violence did not end. The brothers within the Thompson family turned on one another and Robert's mother, ann, turned to alcohol to shut out the world. It was reported that six days after Mr Thompson left his family, the house burned to the ground and I don't know like if it was one of the kids, if it was the husband if it like, I have no idea.
Speaker 3:But holy shit, yeah, and there's how many kids? Seven, seven. So a single mom, yeah, seven kids. Your husband just up and leaves you, yeah.
Speaker 1:At this time, I blame your house burns down. At this time, I think she has six kids, because then she has another baby with a boyfriend, okay, so still six kids. That's a lot yeah.
Speaker 3:That's a lot to take care of, just like by yourself. Yep, I'd probably drink too, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So Ann and her children after the fire were placed in a hostel for the homeless and then were moved to Walton Liverpool, and this is where she began to start drinking pretty heavily. She spent a lot of nights out at the local bar, where she was reportedly pretty big into fighting men and women.
Speaker 4:Oh okay.
Speaker 1:Prior to Mr Thompson leaving, the children were reported to have been well-behaved and nicely dressed. But this quickly deteriorated once he was gone and it wasn't long before social services took notice. Before long, three of Robert's older brothers were placed into care for various reasons. So it said he had like a 16-year-old brother that had gotten in trouble and so I guess I just took him out of the home, put him in foster care. And then another brother that was like 14 or 15 that happened to. And then another brother wanted to go into foster care because he saw like his other brothers got nice clothes and stuff. So then he was like, well, I want to go. That's sad, yeah. And so, fearing she would lose the rest of her kids, she stopped disciplining them all together and at this point the kids knew that now they could just do whatever the hell they wanted whatever they wanted, and not a good combination.
Speaker 1:No, Robert would taunt his mother by saying things like you can't batter me because I'll go to the I think it's busies, which is a word for police the busies, the busies. You can't batter me because I'll go to the busies. I think that's how it was.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think so too. That was really good.
Speaker 1:Neighbors were called Robert as a cruel child who was unable to play with other kids without making them cry. They said he was constantly lighting fires in his back garden, burning batteries and lighting aerosol cans on fire.
Speaker 3:That is not a good sign.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 3:Kids get into like pyro stuff, yeah, that can be a, that can be like a normal kid stuff. But when it's like an obsession like it sounds like his was all men have like a fire thing.
Speaker 1:They like to blow shit up. It's like some weird thing in their DNA.
Speaker 3:We have this little like blow torch lighter and my kids have to light, like, hey mom, can I light this candle? And then they have to blow it out like 15 times so they can just keep lighting it. Yeah.
Speaker 1:There's something with men and fire. And I don't understand what it is. It's so weird. But when it does become an obsession and they're doing it all like all of the time, that's a different story.
Speaker 3:It makes you wonder if he was the one that had to do with the fire from his house, right.
Speaker 1:But yeah. So one neighbor lady did feel bad for Robert and his siblings and she invited Robert over once to play with her son James. But it wasn't long before she noticed his sadistic behavior. One time he bragged to her about how his dog had given birth and that he had drowned the puppies. I wonder why he would tell somebody that.
Speaker 3:But hey, thanks for inviting me to afternoon tea, but I got a story for you. Yeah, one of his. What would you do if your kids like, well, they didn't bring a friend because it's not a friend. But you're like, oh, this poor kid, he just needs somebody to be nice to him. Yeah, and then you bring him over to your house and he's like guess what, my dog had puppies and I drowned all of them. Yeah, I would be like, well, that's why he doesn't have friends.
Speaker 1:So we'll just get out of my house. Well, just that was one and done, all right. Well, see you never. Okay. One of his childhood friends, michael Guy, had the same sort of impression of him. They said they skipped school a lot together and at first he really liked Robert, but over time he became afraid of him. He said they would shoot pigeons with air guns but then Robert would stomp on their heads to make sure they were dead. Michael said that if Robert told him to steal something by but Michael refused, robert would beat him up and unfortunately, early on in school Robert showed promise. He was really smart and he scored really high on a lot of his testing. But his behavior deteriorated over time and so did his academic promise. In the two years leading up to the murder we will talk about today, robert had skipped school a total of 250 half days is what they called it, because I think he went to school for a second and then left 250.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's like a whole year?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like it's pretty much like a whole year that he just didn't go to school. Officials stated they did all they could home visit, sent letters to his mom, reported him to the police, but nothing worked. And at this point was expecting her seventh child with a new boyfriend and she told her friend, once they can all go into care and fed up with a lot of them I don't care about the other boys, this one's going to be different, better. So she is like I'm washing my hands of you guys.
Speaker 3:I'm starting over with this new kid. Yeah, he's the only. He's my last hope of essentially not having an asshole for a kid. Yeah, oh, strong mothering right, very strong mothering. I think it's you that's the problem, so like if all of your kids are like that or want to get away from you, like if they're begging to go into foster care.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a problem. I mean, when you have a family like a large family, right, you're bound to have one kid that's going to stray from the pack right. Like it's just, we all have this. There's always like yeah, the one kid that just you know, that's on which one of mine is going to be just have the one kid that, just you know, does some shit, and you're like, why would you do?
Speaker 1:like I didn't raise you that way, like why would you? Why would you do that? And that's just normal, yes, normal. But when you have like all of these kids and they're all shit, and then you're not getting in trouble extra rotten one, like it's something you've done.
Speaker 1:Your parenting is not very good, so moving on. So the other suspect we have here is John Venables, and he was born August 13, 1982. So these guys are 10 days apart in age. He was the middle of three children. Now John's older brother was born with a cleft palate, which left him with substantial difficulties speaking. He often had outbursts and went to a school for kids of special needs Because remember his older brother, I think, was born in 1979. And you know any kid our age that had like a cleft lip or anything like that, like it was obvious, it was very like obvious.
Speaker 1:You. There was a big scar. It's a huge thing, like nowadays kids have that and like you don't even notice barely, yeah, you barely tell. And this kid, I'm sure. Well, and it said on one report he didn't even have his first surgery till he was 11 months, and so I think he was just kind of behind.
Speaker 1:And then he struggled expressing like what he was trying to say, and so he was just kind of like a handful. So he ended up going to a school for kids of special needs and he did really well there. John's younger sister also had special needs and required a lot of attention. She also went to the same school as her older brother. But this kind of left John to feel alone and neglected emotionally at times because his siblings needed so much like attention and care that he was kind of swept to the side, you know, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, so his parents had divorced when he was three and it's hard to tell. So there's so many reports. Some of them say that the mom had like like lots of extramarital affairs. Some say like it was tumultuous. They fought a lot, they lived together. They didn't live together. They lived together like kind of back and forth. But it seems like towards the end, or not towards the end, but like when all of this took place they weren't. They were divorced, but they were like amicable, and it seemed like they were amicable, like even after they had separated, like the kids regularly saw their dad, like he would come and spend time with them at the mom's house or vice versa, like they were still pretty so much better childhood than Robert?
Speaker 3:it sounds like yes.
Speaker 1:Even though there might have, like the divorce may have been hard on him and that kind of stuff, like it was not near as traumatic as. Robert's Okay, john's mother was also said to have suffered from depression and possibly some other mental health issues, and this would kind of cause her to have some like mental health breakdowns at times. Whose mom doesn't suffer from depression? Right For real.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's. Is there anybody? Is there any listener? That, at a period of time, your mom has not suffered from depression? Right, lost your shit, please let me know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but John's behavior got worse as he aged. He enjoyed stealing candy from the local candy store and when he was grounded he would throw tantrums, kicking doors and screaming. He struggled to play nice with neighborhood kids, often kicking them in the shins and then punching them in the ribs. This was apparently like. His signature move was the like one to kick in the shin, punch in the ribs punch in the rib.
Speaker 3:Yeah, be gone. Yeah, oh, what a little ass.
Speaker 1:Right. One of the Venables neighbors, sarah Ogden, said she would take the kids in after school and give them lemonade. She said they were always in the street at all hours and all, and although she and Mrs Venables never had come to an agreement, she stepped in to help, stating that mom simply wasn't there.
Speaker 3:Aw, that's like a nice neighbor, right? Yeah, she just sees, this lady needs some help.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she's like her kids are always just like out in the street. So okay, you guys hungry.
Speaker 3:I'm gonna bring them some lemonade.
Speaker 1:Thirsty, I'm gonna come over for a minute. So John attended Broad Square Primary School and was known to cause disturbances and try to shirk the blame onto other people. He would throw fits, usually self-harming by throwing himself into desks, tables and walls, and his teacher said he was the strangest child I ever had in my class. He demanded attention all the time and if he did not get it he would throw the most outrageous tantrums. He would literally throw himself around the room banging off the walls and furniture.
Speaker 3:So I feel like there's something wrong with him.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, and they said maybe ODD or yeah, well, and they said it like, at some point he started like sitting, like sitting in his desk, and he would grab like a hold of the front of his desk and like rock back and forth like in his desk pretty violently, and some people said he was like mimicking the tantrums his older brother would throw and so he didn't know if he was doing it to try and get attention, because he never got attention, right, yeah, good, or bad Right, but still the end of the day, I feel like it's not quite normal behavior, no, to do that.
Speaker 1:So something's going on.
Speaker 3:Especially in like a school setting, because I feel like a lot of times, if your brain is functioning appropriately yeah, for your age, right, when you're, when you get around your peers, you act a little different because you don't want them to think you're weird, right, yeah, you know you want acceptance and you want. Yeah, but he's like full on, like throwing himself into desks and walls and throwing tantrums, yeah.
Speaker 1:That's not normal.
Speaker 3:No, Nope, even if it is for attention, I feel like that's very excessive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure To like want that kind of negative attention in front of your friends To where, like, people aren't going to want to be friends with you because they're like something's wrong with him, that's weird.
Speaker 3:He scares me so and he punches me in the ribs a lot. Right, he's freaking musicians. I'm just playing with him.
Speaker 1:So in 1991, he was expelled from this school for grotting a classmate with a ruler. After what Did it? Took two teachers to get them off. So apparently I don't know what pissed him off, I don't know why he did it, Never said, but apparently he grabbed a ruler, like was behind a classmate you know, like put it around his neck and was like choking him with it and it took two teachers to get him like off of this kid and the kid was like turning purple.
Speaker 3:Damn.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So after that they were like yeah, we don't want you to come back, so you just need to go somewhere else. So he was sent to St Mary's Church of England in Walton Now to help make this transition. He spent some nights and weekends with his dad, who lived closer to the school, before moving in with his dad full time. His dad, unfortunately, lived just down the street from Robert Thompson and the two became fast friends, and even more so when they realized they were both held back a year due to poor performance.
Speaker 3:And they both realized that they're psychopaths. Yeah, so that's a terrible, terrible combination.
Speaker 1:It is. It's always like if they would have never met, probably. You know, like just it's so like perfect storm kind of stuff. Yeah. So John and Robert spent many school days skipping, with John racking up 50 truancies in the autumn term.
Speaker 1:The first year he was at that school, Mr Venables was able to drastically cut his son's truancies by picking him up each afternoon from school himself. Now his parents were concerned with his friendship with Robert, thinking that he was not a good influence, and so, due to this and his frequent truancies, they had decided to yet again move him schools in the summer, not knowing that the place he would end up going to that summer would be due to one act that would change the course of many lives for all eternity. See, on February 12, John and Robert would skip school again and the course of their lives would be shifted forever. So on the afternoon of February 12, 1993, an airy scene was caught on CCTV at the Neustrand shopping center when 10 year old John Venables and 10 year old Robert Thompson were seen walking out of the mall holding hands with two year old James Bulger.
Speaker 3:Oh God, this is the case I was thinking of. Yeah, this is terrible, it's a terrible case.
Speaker 1:Both boys had skipped school that day, something that was, like I'd said before, the norm for them. But today was different. Today would change the course of their lives as well as shake a community to its core. The boys had spent their afternoon shoplifting, running through the mall and tossing stolen goods down the escalators. Now, for me, if this was nowadays and there was like two kids at this, like shopping place and they were just like running amok and like throwing shit down the escalators, yeah, like they had stolen.
Speaker 1:Mall security would have been like why? What are you doing? Shouldn't you be in school? Why are you here? Where are your parents?
Speaker 3:Paul Blart would have pulled up on this thing, segwayed over there and like what the hell man?
Speaker 1:But apparently nobody knows, no, no some 90s, I guess, was like a little different. I don't know.
Speaker 3:There is security here Even then, though, like I would be calling like if I were a mall, like a shopper, right. I would be getting my quarter out and putting it in the payphone and calling the police like this is not okay. These kids should not be behaving this way and they're shoplifting. It's not like they're just being assholes, they're actually breaking the law. Yeah, yeah they're stealing.
Speaker 1:So those are just like one thing. They stole several things that day. So it was, yeah, like what. What is happening? Yeah, now, prior to the scene caught on camera, a woman in a TJ Hughes department store noticed that both her three year old daughter and two year old son were missing. Frantically looking around, the woman quickly spotted her daughter, but still her son was nowhere to be seen. And when she asked her daughter where her brother was, she stated gone outside with the boy. So she ran for the exit, yelling her son's name. She saw the two boys trying to coax the little boy to follow them, but when they saw her, they told the boy to go back with his mom and they ran off. So after this failed attempt, as they waited by a snack kiosk hoping to steal some more candy, they noticed a beautiful blonde little boy near the door of a butcher shop. This little boy was two year old, james Bolger. Whatever inside them told them to act. We will never know, but as soon as James's mother was distracted, they motioned for him to come along with them and he did with ease. Here, as seen on camera, john took James by the hand and the two, along with Robert, walked out of the shopping center, headed in the direction of the Leeds Liverpool Canal.
Speaker 1:Within moments, denise James's mother noticed her little boy was gone and began to panic Without wasting any time. She found him, all security, and informed them that her son was gone. She gave them a description of James and what he was wearing, and they began announcing his name over the speaker system. But after about 20 minutes they came to the realization that he was probably not there anymore, and so Mrs Bolger reported him as missing with the local police. Once away from the shopping center, james began to cry for his mother, but this didn't deter the boys who continued to walk with him down to a secluded area near a canal.
Speaker 1:At the canal they dropped James on his head, leaving him on the ground crying, and this was because their original plan was to push him into the water. And so they got down there and they were trying to get him to kneel like to look in the water. So they were going to get him to, like, kneel down and look over in the water and then push him in. But he wouldn't do it, and so this pissed Robert off. I think it's hard to tell, because these boys don't really take responsibility necessarily all the way. So I thought I believed all the way. So I thought I believe it was Robert. Anyway, they drop him, leave him on the ground crying. A woman is passing by and notices this, but does nothing. What Nothing? John and Robert then told James to get up, and he did, following the boys, with a big hit, a big cut and a bruise on his forehead.
Speaker 3:Now, how has a grown adult woman do you pass this by and be like, oh cool, I'm just gonna go back about my day.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, there's a lot of people that witnessed that could have saved this little boy. Yeah, so he's now bleeding, not like profusely, but he has a cut on his head and a bruise on his forehead, and so they pull the hood up from his jacket over his head to try and hide his injury, and they spend several hours taking him on about a two and a half mile walk through a liver pull and these two.
Speaker 1:They passed businesses, parking lots, shopping centers, with this little boy who was obviously injured. There was times where James would be laughing and then other times where he would be crying and resisting. Ultimately, the three boys were spotted by at least 38 people 38?, and not one adult stepped in, did anyone even stop and be like A couple people did stop hey do you need some help, but they were able to like talk their way out of it.
Speaker 3:Just saying like oh, this is my little brother.
Speaker 1:One person reported seeing tears on James's face. One person reported seeing Robert kick James in the ribs for resisting. One woman witnessed Robert punch little James and shake him, but still nothing was done. Instead, she just closed her curtains.
Speaker 3:These people are just as responsible for this. Like how do you? I don't care if it is your little brother, I don't give a shit if that is your blood. We're going to get to the bottom of this. Where is your mother? Yeah?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you have this little baby with you and you are punching him and shaking him Like I don't care if it's your brother, absolutely, you're not going to do that.
Speaker 3:No Right, how do 38 people see this? And they're like, oh cool, yeah, not my business, not my business.
Speaker 1:yep, it's just another one of those things like well ignore it.
Speaker 3:That's disgusting. That is disgusting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that older woman saw the trio near dark and noticed James bloody and bruised face, and she did stop them to inquire what was going on. John and Robert told the woman that they had just found him at the bottom of the hill, and so she instructed the boys to take him to the nearby police station. Police station, police station. And as they walked away she was concerned, so she yelled to them to try and get their attention again, but they never turned around, and a woman who was standing nearby told her that she had just seen James laughing with the boys a minute ago, and so they both assumed that like nothing was wrong and did nothing further.
Speaker 3:This is a two year old child.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So later that night this woman, who did stop them, saw the news report of James is missing and she immediately called the police and told them that what she had seen and was very regretful for not doing more.
Speaker 3:I mean in her situation, like she didn't actually see this kid being punched or whatever no. So I can see that right. You see two boys walking with a younger child and they're like, yeah, like we just actually found him, we're trying to figure out what to do. And she's like take him to the police station. Yeah, I mean, in that time you, I probably.
Speaker 1:Now that we would take that a little bit more right. These days we'd be like, let me take him, or somebody saying oh no, it's just my little brother.
Speaker 3:He fell down. But these people that are physically watching this happen and they're like, let me just close my blinds and pretend I didn't see that. Yeah, Fuck you.
Speaker 1:Yep, john and Robert took little James into two separate stores where they were seen by workers and, although they thought the scene was suspicious, still nothing was done. They also ran into two older boys that they both knew and when they, the boys, asked them like who James was, john told them that it was Robert's little brother and they were taking him home. And obviously these were kids, so like they're just like okay, whatever, they're probably like yeah, little brother, whatever Great. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But eventually they arrive at the railway and the torture and death of James would occur sometime between 545 and 6.30 pm. Here they threw blue paint paint they had stolen earlier into James's eye. They kick and beat him with bricks and stones. Some reports state that they stuffed batteries into his mouth and other reports state they stuffed them into his rectum. The final blow came from a 22 pound iron bar and in the end James had 10 skull fractures, 42 injuries to his face, head and body. He was beaten so badly that the medical examiner could not determine which injury was the cause of death. Once deceased, they placed his lifeless body on the railroad tracks in hopes that it would look like an accident.
Speaker 3:Oh 10 skull fractures.
Speaker 1:So in the beginning, denise and Ralph Bolger were the main suspects, but that was quickly squashed when the police got ahold of the CCTV footage and they spotted James being led out by two young boys. When Ralph Bolger saw the footage, he was relieved, stating I looked at Denise and smiled with relief he's going to be all right, denise, he's with two young kids, he's going to be all right. Because I mean, wouldn't you kind of? I mean I guess maybe not anymore. Because I felt like everyone's creepy and weird but like, but I would. Even now I would.
Speaker 3:It would be less scary than like a grown man taking your kid Like oh, these kids took on like You're like, oh they, probably he wandered off. They, they have him and they're just trying to figure out how to get him back to us.
Speaker 1:So the search for baby James, as he was now being referred to in the media, was massive. Everyone was looking. Police cars drove around using their loud speakers to call for James. Press conferences were being conducted pleading to the abductors to come forward and release James. Foot searches through nearby canals and wastelands were in full force and two days later, on February 14th, the search for baby James ended when four children discovered his severed body on the tracks nearby the local police station.
Speaker 4:So he ended up.
Speaker 1:He did, they did, he did get run over by a train.
Speaker 3:And the train didn't see him, or like report that no. I feel like you would be able to see a body.
Speaker 1:You would think that he was so little. Maybe they didn't even like notice or thought it was like a doll. I don't think you would ever think it was like a real little boy. So such a creepy like weird.
Speaker 3:That's yeah.
Speaker 1:Situation I have no idea.
Speaker 3:Poor parents.
Speaker 1:I know Police now had a body and possible suspects. So, because the CCTV footage showed James last with two young boys, they began to check all nearby schools to see what children were marked absent on February 12th. This gave police a nice list of potential suspects and with the case unfolding on the news, even some parents called in to report suspicions of their own children. Can you imagine like you see a little boy missing on TV and he was, you know, like we see him on footage, like being let out by two young boys and you're like that was my kid, my kid, totally kidnapped?
Speaker 3:this little boy. No, if you think that that was your child, right. There's a whole bunch of other conversations that need to happen. Absolutely there's not. Like I could see somebody that looks like my son and I'm like there's no way that was my freaking kid Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I remember parents calling him and being like that's my kid.
Speaker 3:Mine did that. It was probably me, so yeah.
Speaker 1:I can't even imagine feeling that about. No, because even today, nolan was, I remember, because he always talks and I've said this before in the back seat, like and at full volume. And then I'm like who are you talking to? Like, or what are you trying to say? And he's like am I talking to you? So I don't always listen, because he's like having full on conversations with whatever personalities are with him.
Speaker 1:I have no idea, sure, I have no idea what personalities which he was like I'm not like. He's like I'm not a nice kid, I'm not a bully, I'm like somewhere in between. And I was like are you talking about yourself? And he's like yeah, and I'm like. I would say you're a nice kid, like everyone says you're nice. I was like your teacher, just that parent teacher conference, said what a nice kid you are and like you're so helpful and friendly. And so I would say you're a nice kid. And he's like I know, but I'm just saying like I'm, you know, I'm just kind of in the middle. I think you're a little bit more on the end of like being a nice kid, yeah, and not you know. So even in like that one, I'm like no, you're not.
Speaker 3:Where is my? I don't understand his mind. I don't even.
Speaker 1:Okay. So, with the investigation underway, the police received an anonymous call from a person stating that both John Venables and Robert Thompson were absent on the day in question and that this person had personally seen blue paint on the sleeve of John's jacket. They also recognized the boys from the CCTV footage.
Speaker 1:So with this information, please, please, God, I can't talk Plain clothes detectives are sent to the home of each boy to to detain and take them into the station for questioning. When they arrive at John's home, the officer is taken aback when he sees John at the top of the stairs. He looked so young and small. The police are convinced that the two boys that they've just taken in are not the killers, not capable of such a crime, and that they're far too young.
Speaker 3:Because how old are they 10. 10. They're 10. That's like the twins are almost 10. Yeah, can you imagine no Jet and Knox doing anything like this? No, like we're. That's insane, yeah.
Speaker 1:The officers are sure they're looking for teenagers because they know that they're young, but they think they're more like maybe 13, 14, 15, like little bit older.
Speaker 3:Like harder, hard to believe. Teenage Anyways, like in that age group. Oh for sure, yeah, that somebody would be that depraved to do that to a baby. A little baby, yeah, just for fun, but then to see it's a 10 year old, yeah.
Speaker 1:What so although they didn't believe them to be guilty, they still wanted to question them. John immediately broke down when officers explained that they were arresting him on suspicion of James's murder. He cried and said I don't want to go to prison. Mom, I didn't kill the baby. He began to blame it all on Robert, saying that it was Robert and that he always gets him in trouble. He continued to ask about Robert on the way into the station, wanting to know if they'd arrested him yet and where they were going to take him.
Speaker 1:John was especially fascinated by the police procedure when they were taking his fingerprints. He wanted to know how it worked. He said it looked like invisible ink, like it was magic. He said do you leave these on whatever you touch? If you touch someone's skin, does it leave a fingerprint? If you drag someone really hard, does it leave your nails and their skin? The whole time wondering if the same was happening with Robert. Police ended up taking blood, hair and fingernail samples from both boys, and once Baby James was discovered, people from the community came to leave flowers in remembrance of him at the crime scene, including a single rose placed there by Robert. Later in interviews he argued why would I bring a flower for the baby if I'd killed him.
Speaker 3:This is astonishing because his mind is already thinking about things like this, like I need to go leave this rose. Either one, it's like serial killer status, where he just wants to go back to the scene. Or two, his mind is really capable of thinking at his age that far ahead where he's like a pair of girls like him and at the hideout like this and maybe towards my marriage for like two weeks. So he is not a GrimId, he simply thinks he's also a group inland. So I've gone two조now once, followed by putty and further care, because the 수호 this is gonna make me look innocent and either way, that is so disturbing.
Speaker 1:Very right Now, during questioning, both boys vehemently denied every ring with James taking him being in the area that he was found, and both boys went back and forth between being very calm and sobbing.
Speaker 3:How does John say that when he already said like I didn't, it was, it was all Robert. So.
Speaker 1:I'm going to play a clip for you and it's a little long, but I feel like the audio is really clear for the most part and it's it's part of the interrogation of the boys. Now, they were interrogated like for over, not at one sitting, but like over time, for like over 20 hours.
Speaker 3:Okay, so this is not what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:Well, sometimes adults are questioned for that long. In one sitting these children were not, but this is like eight minutes.
Speaker 3:But it kind of goes through, you can use their ten.
Speaker 1:So I just, I just do want to warn you because they do cry in some parts and I think some of it is like true sadness. But I honestly can't tell you if they're sad because they got in trouble or if they have remorse for what they did, like I don't know, because it's so hard to distinguish.
Speaker 5:but I am going to play this for you guys, so Well, I'm going to be a professional, bobby, when you get as well as you. Bobby, I came out to your house this morning, didn't I? Yeah, and what did I say to you?
Speaker 4:A lesson.
Speaker 5:Correct, or four James, james. What about James?
Speaker 4:You said one suspicion of murder.
Speaker 5:Well, very well, remember you ever seen him in the strand. He took your hand again. Yeah, bobby, was that on the day that we're talking about? Was that on this Friday?
Speaker 4:Yes, yeah, we were going up the escalators, we were going through the doors that this loo was of.
Speaker 5:Who was he with?
Speaker 4:No.
Speaker 5:Little James, his mum, with his mum. He was just running around. Was he James? Yeah, will you tell me exactly?
Speaker 4:what Slowly right, he was just a cull, yeah. And then he grabbed his hands and walked up to stand.
Speaker 5:How did he come up to John?
Speaker 4:How did he come up to John?
Speaker 5:James.
Speaker 4:No, he was walking around the strand.
Speaker 5:Who was James? The baby Was he?
Speaker 4:I told him to take him back.
Speaker 5:He didn't talk. I told him to take him back. All right, bobby. No, you might get in the plane. I'm just asking his son. We're trying to balance him. We're always getting in the plane. Wait a minute, bobby. You see Little James is following me up on stage Right, but on another picture, John. It appears as if John had hold of his hand.
Speaker 4:Yeah, all right. What are you questioning me and John as well?
Speaker 5:John is saying to us that he wasn't down at the strand.
Speaker 4:Bobby where.
Speaker 5:I know you were at the strand, but why should he lie to us by saying that he wasn't in the strand? He's scared of saying that he was down in the strand because something happened, didn't it?
Speaker 4:Like the big gutter.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Not by me.
Speaker 5:We certainly admitted throwing stones and things like that. He's blaming you for a lot of things.
Speaker 4:Yeah, but why? Is he? Blaming me. Well, I want to know the truth right now.
Speaker 5:The whole truth. There's other things going on, isn't there? I know the truth. I believe I know the truth.
Speaker 4:I was there, that's right. You weren't.
Speaker 5:Correct, but I know there's a lot of things going on.
Speaker 4:Yeah, well, john, you need to kill them. It wasn't. I never even killed them. I don't know how to end up getting all the blame, because I've got balls on me.
Speaker 5:We're asking you, John, and we want you to tell us the truth at all. Not give the blame to you or anything else, but it's only the truth that we're saying.
Speaker 4:Yeah well, john, he's still a blank in his face.
Speaker 5:Can we just go through it slowly, right, what John did, with what right? He said if you got hit with a brick, first do they Then what do they do? Another?
Speaker 4:brick.
Speaker 5:He threw another brick, 20, 55. Can I have?
Speaker 4:you to go home tonight.
Speaker 5:We don't know yet. We don't know yet. I like what you were telling me, you don't need to answer any more questions, do I? Come on that body.
Speaker 4:I don't want to kill them. I've got a baby with me.
Speaker 5:I'm trying to.
Speaker 4:I thought I wanted to kill a baby. I could be home, wouldn't I?
Speaker 5:Was he able to talk? Yeah, james, yeah, why did he say to you I want me?
Speaker 6:to. He said that the two of you were in the strand and that you saw the little boy.
Speaker 4:We never. Yeah, we was, but we never saw any kids there.
Speaker 1:So I just want to jump in really quick right here and just let you guys know that it switched from Robert to John.
Speaker 4:So this is now.
Speaker 1:John, that's getting interrogated.
Speaker 4:We never saw any kids. So you were in Bootleman, you strand. What's your in Bootle strand? We never got a kid mom. We never, we never got a kid. I must ask you that to get angry with it. I never got the boy, I never killed him.
Speaker 6:And he said that you took him by the hand and let him out of the strand shop.
Speaker 4:We never In the liar Down down, oh my gosh. Oh no, you're so high. Come on go. Have you got those two? Got those two from town yet? And we never. You're too scared, You're probably too scared.
Speaker 6:A short while ago, as is detailed on your custody record out there, you had a conversation with your mom, and you then requested that the self come into the room. Is that right? Yeah, and what was it? You told us.
Speaker 4:I killed James. So he walked up to her and we were walking round with him and I shook his hand. I lose idea. Was it to walk towards him? Mine what was it. Then it was Robert's idea to kill him, and we went outside to take him out. What for?
Speaker 4:Don't know. He said let's throw him in the water. He was persuading him. He said me or Dan, I'm going to look at the water and all that. But he wouldn't. Because when we wouldn't get him down, robert kicked him up and threw him on the floor and I told him he got his butt on his head. What?
Speaker 6:were you going to? Why are we taking him to Rottenburg?
Speaker 4:Don't know. We didn't know what to do. You walk along where. The train track. We took him around so we started to put him in the brake cellar. I didn't throw any brakes because Robert said pick up your hot and throw it, as you threw it on the floor. What was Robert saying while he was doing all this? He was saying stay down, stupid, take him down, all that. Why do you want him to stay down? Don't know. One of them did probably.
Speaker 6:Where did the stones and the bar hit him? In the head and you said the bar knocked him out.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and to the railway track. What happened then? He was just lying there to finish the alcohol and can't speak anymore.
Speaker 1:Okay, so yeah, it's a lot, it's a lot.
Speaker 3:It's so disturbing that I'm just sitting here because I don't even know what to say.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's, I don't know either. And are you watching a video?
Speaker 3:over there.
Speaker 1:So it's a video it just showed. Like Does it show the kids?
Speaker 3:No, it doesn't show their.
Speaker 1:No, it just is transcript so when they're talking you can read what's being said. But they said with John he seemed to be really concerned about what his mom thought of him, and so she's the one that was yelling at him for a second like where are you? At bootle strand, she's obviously like if that's your kid, you're like what the fuck did you do? And then they have to tell her like hey, please don't get angry. And a lot of the reports I read said that it wasn't until they left him alone with his mom and his mom and dad told him that they would love him forever, no matter what he's done. And that's when he finally started telling kind of what they did. But they still both boys still kind of say like well, was the other one that did all of this, like I? Only I picked up a brick once because he told me to, but I threw it on the ground Right Like they neither one of them ever really.
Speaker 3:And Robert was, like it just seemed like more concerned with getting all the blame and was like I was there but I didn't do anything. And now I'm getting blamed for everything.
Speaker 1:Well, in that part, because he has a little his mom, I think it's had the baby at this point. And when he was like I have a baby of my own, like if I was going to kill a baby, why wouldn't I just kill?
Speaker 3:the one that I like kill my baby.
Speaker 1:Why would I?
Speaker 3:kill a different baby. That gives me chills and it's like what Like okay. And you can just hear in their little voices how young they are.
Speaker 1:They're so young, so young.
Speaker 3:And then they're breaking down, but it really doesn't seem like. It really does just seem like they're sad that they got caught.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they don't want to be in trouble and their parents are mad at them.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and they're at the police station Like that would be overwhelming, but it doesn't sound like they've really felt remorse for killing this little kid yeah.
Speaker 1:And I feel like the officers, too, did like such a good job on them, being, like you know, trying to like blame you. We just want to get to the truth, want to know what happened. Like you know, I feel like the way they talk to the boys is very like comforting too, like they weren't too harsh on them, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh. So essentially, in the end Robert claimed it was John who was in an out of control killing frenzy. He says that John threw more bricks at the baby and hit him, and that was the other thing. That was kind of like creepy to me was that Robert caught like refers to him as the baby, the baby, the baby. Yeah, like that was kind of creepy.
Speaker 3:Even when they say his name, he like at one point is like who the baby? Yeah, like he doesn't want them to call him by his name yeah Well. And a lot of times when they're like could he talk?
Speaker 1:and he's always like who Right, James, Did he follow you? Who James Like? They have to like all the time. He's like who Like who. Who are you talking about? What are you talking?
Speaker 3:about. They're like, but then he's like oh, the baby yeah.
Speaker 1:The baby.
Speaker 3:That was really creepy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's super creepy, really really creepy. Um, robert's saying that John threw more bricks and he's the one that hit James, the big metal. He called it a big metal thing with holes in it, and he said John hit James with a stick while James was lying on the ground. John threw batteries at his face, all while he screamed at John to stop and tried pulling him away. When asked why John did this, robert said he didn't know and that all he did was pinch James. Okay, the boys play the blame game hard with each other, but in the end the truth comes out, whether or not it was, whoever it was, that did whatever.
Speaker 3:They were both there and they both played a part and they both had, and they had this little boy for hours. Oh yeah, when they could have just left him somewhere.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Even after dropping him on his head right, like after they're going on this two and a half mile walk about, yeah, like why would you not? You know all these people are stopping you or seeing you. You had plenty of opportunity to be like what am I doing? And at 10, you do know that that that what you're doing is very, very wrong. Oh yeah, and if you were worried that the other person was taking it too far at any point, you could have just walked away, absolutely.
Speaker 1:You could have just left. It's one thing like I do understand especially. I feel like little boys are very impulsive, right, like they get a thought, like it would be fun to jump off the stairs.
Speaker 1:Jump off the roof with an umbrella, but there's like no thought process later on, right, but so not that this is a normal behavior of small children at all, but like to take the little boy impulsively, like, oh, we, just like you took it. But then after like a minute or so you wouldn't want to have this baby with you anymore and you'd be like, okay, let's just like leave him here and someone else at the shopping center can take care of him, or whatever.
Speaker 1:Or someone in the streets will will do something with him, but to like walk him around and repeatedly like harm him, yeah, and then take him to this place and like brutally attack him.
Speaker 3:Well, and the fact that you're 10 and that's what you're thinking about is how to kidnap somebody and kill them. After we know, at least Robert has had issues with animal cruelty and burning things, lighting fires, yeah, and it's like these are serial killers in the making. Yeah, they just exhibited that at such a young age.
Speaker 1:They had tried to kidnap a child earlier in the day. Right that was thwarted. And they did it again. They weren't like, and again a two year old, yeah, and they weren't like oh shit, like that was scary and like we got caught. So like we're done you know what I mean. Like we're not going to do this again today, or whatever.
Speaker 3:Like nope, they just hung out some more, and right afterwards they're like hey, round two.
Speaker 1:So it's scary.
Speaker 3:It is it's hard to like talk about little kids like that, because they're so little, but it's so scary and it's like they were just, they were doing all of this and like even the first, the thwarted attempt, like the mom saw them and still nobody went and turned them in because they were like, oh, it's fine, yeah, they're just little kids, like they're not going to do anything that terrible Right?
Speaker 1:No, you don't have that thought.
Speaker 3:Like sure they may nix some candy, that's it. This is like unfathomable, yeah oh a hundred percent Ugh.
Speaker 1:So the boys are indicted and held in custody until their trial, which was set for November of 1993.
Speaker 3:So what, where did these like, where do?
Speaker 1:they're 10? I know when he's like, when he's asking, even like juvenile prison.
Speaker 3:So right.
Speaker 1:It's like you can't just lock these kids up by themselves with 17 year olds, with 17 year olds, you know, who are potentially in juvenile cell.
Speaker 3:Yeah, even all detention for other potentially like violent crimes.
Speaker 1:It doesn't say where they kept them before trial, like it talks about what they do after. But it did say that they had to make some like accommodations for them. So I'm guessing that they probably almost like maybe a protective custody type thing where they like they put them in a different part of the detention center or whatever.
Speaker 1:But even at that part, when he's like, do I get to go home tonight? And it's like he's 10. Like even if he did do this, like he's still like it's so hard, like it's so little and the to have your child, just like, sorry, he's got to go into custody and tell trial, and it's like, but he's, yeah, he's so little, I can't. He just stay home and I'll make sure he doesn't go anywhere without me, he's not going to flee the country.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Like I won't let him go anywhere without me, Like I'll just he'll, I'll just be with him. You know, like that would be so hard.
Speaker 3:And also knowing that your 10 year old just did that to a two year old child. Yeah, where does your mind go as a parent? Oh my God.
Speaker 1:I, I blame game for myself. This is awful. Yeah, this is awful. So at first the trial was set to be at South Sefton Magistrates Court, but a crowd of over 300 angry people gathered outside, causing a riot, which made the courts decide to move the trial to Preston, which is another little town. Each boy was sat on a special platform that was built, so it was like built higher up so that they could see out of, like they call it, the dock.
Speaker 3:It's like a booster seats at restaurants right. You can't reach the table, so you got to get a booster seat.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the boys were referred to as child A and child B during court to conceal their identities because they were so young.
Speaker 1:They didn't want, like the public, to know who they were. The lead prosecutor, richard Henry case, I guess, was successful in his rebuttal of the principal I don't know how to say this. Dole, dole in Capix, dole in Capix, which is essentially like it discusses the age of criminal responsibility. But in England, as a child, you can be held responsible for crimes starting at age 10. So had these guys committed this crime just months before turning 10, they would not have been convicted of anything.
Speaker 1:They wouldn't have been held responsible for anything. They would have been too young. Oh, that's awful, Weird huh. That is like you're nine years old in 10 months and you wouldn't be convicted, but you know, right at 10, 10 years old exactly or whatever, like now you're going to be tried as an adult. Essentially, Wow, Weird huh and I guess it said that in Scotland the age is eight. It'll mess around, Crazy huh, it's so hard.
Speaker 3:This is like just blowing my mind, because you just don't think of kids this young doing things like this or like eight, yeah, come on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's crazy. So neither boy spoke at trial and the case against them was largely based on the over 20 hours of tape recorded police interviews. John Solicitor later stated that Thompson was one of the most frightening children that he had ever seen and that he was the Pied Piper in this case. After court, john was reportedly what he would take off his clothes, stating that he could smell James like a baby smell.
Speaker 3:So he had some.
Speaker 1:So here's the thing. So they say, like reported in court, was that like John was very emotional, he would play with tissues, he was very fidgety, he was just kind of like that way. Robert, they said, was just very stoic, he didn't really make any emotions, he didn't really like cry, he just kind of sat there and a lot of people portray Robert to be this, just like he was the evil one, he was the you know mastermind and that John was kind of like the follower. But for me, after reading a lot of this stuff, I don't know that it was necessarily that way. A lot of the stuff that I read when you go back and forth, I think they I don't think John was as like meek and vulnerable as they kind of make him out to be.
Speaker 3:And.
Speaker 1:I think he had just as much culpability and that like he wasn't just being told what to do in following. He just either played the role better or maybe had a little bit more remorse at the end, like once they were caught, you know, he did say like, tell his mom, I'm really sorry. It's like he did like say some things at least that were like showed a little bit more remorse, but so hard because it's such a young age and it's so scary. I just don't know, like what's happening in their brains you know what I mean and their brains aren't even like developed yet, and they even really know like what murder is, like what death is, what torture is what it sounds like the things that they did to this little boy, like if they were putting batteries in his mouth and especially in his rectum.
Speaker 3:I feel like that. I don't know, there's some, but but you go also back to Robert, who was sexually abused by his father and physically abused by his father, and I feel like a lot of that plays a really large role, because that's where they learn these things. Oh for sure. Right, like a lot of serial killers, have terrible childhoods but sometimes they don't act on it. I mean they don't act on it this early, no, for sure. That's what's terrifying to me is that?
Speaker 1:Well, you never know too. Like with Robert having a sexual abuse. I don't even know that it was like a if he did to those things that fits more of like this was done to me. I wonder what. I wonder what it's like to do it to someone else, or like taking back the power.
Speaker 3:You know, yeah, in that situation so hard because it's very common for abused children to then act out on other children.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because they're like well, I want to see, I know what it is to be on the receiving end. I want to see what my abuser gets out of it, like what. I just want to take some of that control back. So it's really sad in this case because it's like Are they just completely psychopathic, right, or are they just acting out on things that have been done to them that they didn't understand? And then it just went too far.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and here's the thing too, so scary when prosecution brought evidence and they brought in a box of 27 bricks, a bloodstained stone, james's underwear and an iron bar that was used in the attack. Now there's a lot of reports I read that state that they don't, like investigators or whatever, do not believe there was a sexual assault at all committed, that there was no sexual motivation behind what happened. But there are reports that say that James's like pants and underwear were removed and there is like some court and they're quoted, so I would hope that they're true where it says that Robert, they asked Robert like well, what would John say you did? And he's like John would say I took off his pants and played with his willy is what he calls it, and so I don't think there was like necessarily a sexual assault in that way of like getting gratification out of it.
Speaker 3:Well, they're probably too young to even get gratification rate.
Speaker 1:If that did happen in that, in that case I think it was more just like a curiosity curiosity, you know, and you just kind of do it.
Speaker 1:But I don't think there was, because he was like very, I'm not a pervert, I'm not a pervert Like I, you know I didn't do that and so I I don't, I don't think that. And they say like they really don't believe that there was any sort of a sexual thing to it. James's mother now, like years later, is, like you know, very she's like I'm very like grateful to know that like there was not a sexual assault and it was not like part of you know what happened. They did say that there was one point where Robert asked if they had taken James to the hospital to get him alive again. And they had.
Speaker 1:So they do talk about a little bit with the batteries of them, like maybe they were trying to like revive him with batteries, but I don't know how, how. That you know, I don't know how mature they were, where their brains were out, like what was actually happening, and that like breaks my heart even more. Yeah, it's honestly like this case is so hard because it's such a disturbing act they're so young, but there's also like so much thought that went into it right Like planning to abduct a child, obviously picking a young enough child that they could get them away from their mom.
Speaker 3:No, just everything was like planned out. And then, after they murdered James, they had the fortitude to put him on the tracks to make it look like an accident.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and hopes that they would just look like he was hit by a train, like so yeah. So there's a lot of thought that goes into it.
Speaker 3:It's like holy shit. Yeah, how do you think about that at 10?
Speaker 1:10. Yeah, yeah, and then in that moment too, like if it wasn't thought out you know what I mean Like it's just a lot to yeah.
Speaker 3:And I could see, I could almost even see this occurring, like if it were to occur now, we could say, oh, maybe they heard different podcasts or all of the different true crime stuff and they like got that in their head Back then there wasn't any of this stuff. So it's not like they watched, you know, some documentary and like their mind starts going there. Yeah, and they were already there.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, they do try to try to. I don't know if you want to say blame or not, but they try to say some stuff about John's dad, like watching the kids, like child's, play the movie and that like that may have played into them kidnapping this little boy, but I think at the end of the day, like I watched scary movies like that younger than 10. And I didn't want to murder little kids. No.
Speaker 1:So I think their, I think their heads were already in that space, yeah, whether or not their dad was going to watch a scary movie.
Speaker 3:Let's say that that played a part. Great, Whatever their their brain is still developing. They see that they get it in their head that they're going to do that. That still doesn't explain how they're like oh shit, we just killed this kid Mm. Hmm, what do we do to hide our tracks? Yeah, yeah, Like it's. This is disturbing in so many ways.
Speaker 3:And now I should go lay flowers, so many of these things to write and then he goes and lays the rose like to make sure that he doesn't look guilty. Either, like I said, it's either that or that he's like literally legit serial killer mind where he's like enjoyed it and wants to go back to the scene to relive some of it.
Speaker 1:One of the articles I read said that John was really like intrigued with the case, like in those couple of days before his body was found, and like they were arrested, and that like he had made some comments about like if he ever met the kids who did it, he would kick him in the face, like that kind of stuff, and so there's a lot of thought that kind of went into their stuff. Yeah, now the pathologist spent 33 minutes describing James's injuries, one of which was a shoe print made by Robert's shoe on James's right cheek. Oh so he had, and apparently he had a very like unique shoe, like pattern and like threading, and it imprinted like on his face Like that's how Hardy kicked him. That's awful. Yeah, so after three weeks of evidence, the jury takes six hours to deliberate and they find both John Venables and Robert Thompson guilty. After trial, the judge recommended a sentence of no less than eight years. I'm going to get it Eight years, yeah, just until they're 18.
Speaker 1:Uh-huh. And the Lord Chief Justice I love because this is in England, everybody's lords and like it sounds so fancy we don't have that here. But so after that the Lord Chief Justice recommended a sentence of 10 years, making them eligible for parole in 2003 at age 20. The community was outraged and almost 280,000 people signed a petition to increase their sentence, and this was presented to the Home Secretary, michael Howard, now the Home Secretary. I looked up and I'm not going to get in because I don't know like the politics. I barely know my own government, let alone the UK's government. But he's someone high up in politics. Okay, that's what the Home Secretary is. So in July 1994, this was successful and the boys were then sentenced to a minimum of 15 years. Now Lord Donaldson criticized this decision, stating that Howard's intervention was institutionalized vengeance by a politician playing to the gallery. So this ruling was then overturned in 1997 by the House of Lords. The House of Lords. The House of Lords.
Speaker 4:I can't the House?
Speaker 1:of Lords, like I can't. Every time I read it I was like oh my gosh.
Speaker 4:The House of.
Speaker 1:Ladies, it's like I'm in like a, like a Harry Potter or something. It's the House of Lords Ruling it unlawful for the Home Secretary to decide sentences for young offenders. So the Home Secretary, I guess, and like other people within, like the government, right, they have the right to make sentence requirements for certain crimes, just like we do here. Right, like so, if you commit murder, the sentences like from this to this or whatever, like they can do that. But they can't come in and like change sentences or make sentences for people During, like a trial. They are like that's for the judge and the jury to do. Like you're just supposed to set like the minimum and maximum, okay, allowable time, but other than that, it's up to the judge over the case and the jury to then decide the sentence of the offender, so the boys.
Speaker 1:So it gets overturned and it gets put back down to the eight years. So the boys were housed in separate secure units for juvenile offenders that were convicted of murder or manslaughter. The locations were kept secret until after their release for safety reasons. They both received education and rehabilitation. Both boys suffered from PTSD from the crime and John suffered from severe nightmares for about a year after the murder. The boys had a lot of counseling. They ended up, as they got older, getting like trips outside the facility to help like acclimate them back into society. And on June 22, 2001, after serving eight years, both boys were released and given new identities.
Speaker 3:Fuck that, because now you have no idea so who they are or where they are at. Well, I don't want them living as my next door neighbor.
Speaker 1:But so they moved to different parts of the country. They never had contact Like once they were arrested, they never like had contact with each other. People do know who they are and the mom was able to James's mom was able to track one of them down, so it must not be like. But then she got to like she was so angry and like upset she wasn't able to like actually meet with him. But Robert Thompson has kept a low profile, as far as anyone knows, and has never been in trouble since. But John Venables was back in the court system, first in July of 2010 at age 27. And then again in 2017, after being caught in possession of child sexual abuse images on his computer. He is now 40 and remains in custody, and there is a reform bill that's proposing a two strikes and you stay in policy and if that passes, this will keep John in prison for the rest of his life. Good.
Speaker 3:So, but this is the one that everyone was like oh, he's more innocent and he's the one that got in trouble afterward.
Speaker 1:Two different times for child pornography, yikes. So I did read a little bit about like the psychology of child child murderers and so there's been several studies and I read a few of them, that kind of talk about like psychopathy and say how it is like a heredity gene, that's like part of your DNA, but not everybody that has that becomes like a murderer, psychopath, crazy person. And I think I think I talked about this in one of our other cases and I can't remember exactly which one it was but there was a doctor who was doing like studies like on the brain.
Speaker 1:They were doing studies of like serial killers, if you remember, and they he was, they were doing that and then they were doing a study on, I think, alzheimer's and he used his brain to scan for the Alzheimer's for like the control, yes, they remember this and then he found out that he is like a psychopath, but that obviously like he's a doctor and very like respectable, and so they talk about like nurture after the fact right, and so a lot of these studies did really say that like it is a heredity gene where people it is kind of passed on, but then these kids and they're very young. So if you have like a mother, it's always the mom. Why is it always a goddamn mom? Because we don't have enough pressure on us Right.
Speaker 1:But the mom is like not very warm and loving and whatever. When they're very small, you know, like age, like two, two to three, that's when stuff can like really change into like how they're going to act. And there's this scale that's called like the deceit, the deceit and callous scale, and it just talks about like unemotional behaviors, callous and unemotional behaviors of children and what causes them, and it says like so. According to research, children who score on the high end of the deceitful and callous scale are less likely to help. Other people are less concerned with other people's feelings and well being.
Speaker 1:Signs in children include not feeling guilty after misbehaving Punishment does not change their behavior selfishness, unwilling to share, lying and trying to outsmart adults. Other more obvious signs are cruelty to animals, obsession with fire and other criminal activities. In one study, they found that while a lot of the callous slash, antisocial behaviors are heritable, it does not always lead to an adult who is antisocial and commits crimes. There are also non heritable factors that play into it, meaning that it's both nature and nurture that play into the development of antisocial, callous behaviors that lead to a person becoming a criminal. That's it.
Speaker 3:All the moms, go hug your kids.
Speaker 1:So I mean, first of all, you don't want to have kids, like you don't have them. It's not a life requirement. I know some people tell you it is, or some religions tell you it is Like, if you truly don't want to have kids, it's not your thing, don't have kids. Yeah, like don't have them, it is completely fine.
Speaker 1:It is hard to be a mom, and if you aren't like about that, like don't do it because it's not something that's like, well, I don't want to do it, but like it'll be okay because it's not easy?
Speaker 3:No, it's not easy and it's a full time job and you have to be on Even when you're not feeling up to it. You can't just check out and be like I don't feel like being a mom today. Yeah, it's great. It's not like work where you can just be like, you know what I'm going to call in today. I'm going to call in today I just need a personal day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, even on the days when I've had, like when I have been the lowest, like with depression, like you know, big events have happened in my life and I literally just want to like crawl into a hole and die, I still have to get up and be a mom and take my kids to school and make food and have a discussion with them and like not let them feel like they need to take care of me.
Speaker 1:Right, you know, and that is one of the hardest things to do. I mean, like even we've talked about this like with the passing of your dad, like in those moments where, like you're so hurt and like just down and want to just not be an adult at all, you still have to be there for your kids and you have to take care of them and you still have to love them and nurture them and talk to them and allow them to be sad and like it's so not easy and so don't, like, don't do it if you don't want to do all this and especially for moms, like dads play a huge role.
Speaker 3:Oh, absolutely, and I can never say how thankful I am for my husband and how, like for sure, hands on and amazing his. But kids want their mom when they're sick, they want their mom when they're hurt, they want their mom when they need something, they want mom. Yeah, it's just like how it goes. I guess it's because we're more nurturing or something, but moms just have, like this comfort level, and some dads I mean dads have it too just not to the extent and I would say 90% of the time kids want their mom.
Speaker 1:Oh for sure, when Lily was like a daddy's girl, right, and so when she was little she did want her dad. Like when she was hurt she wanted her dad. When she was sick she wanted her dad. Like that's just how it was. When she would have night terrors she would sit and scream for her dad and he'd be like I'm holding you, like I'm right here and he's very like nurturing. But it wasn't the same with Nolan, right, like he wants his mom.
Speaker 1:Like he loves his dad and he and his dad have a great relationship, like he wants his mom and my daughter is a lot. You know she's she got older. It's like allowed me to be, she allowed me to come into her life and you know she loves me and whatever now, but it is true, mom's just have that. I don't know just, it's just, it just makes you feel better.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's just. I mean, even if they don't do anything, that actually makes you feel better, right, it's like comforting your mom feels better Feels, feels for you right.
Speaker 1:And so like it's nice to have someone be, like it's okay, come here, lay down, yeah, let me rub your head or whatever.
Speaker 3:Rub your head and just yeah, I mean even as an adult like I sometimes miss, like when I don't feel good.
Speaker 1:I'm like man. I miss my mom because I could say like I didn't feel good and she would be like, oh my gosh, like I felt so bad. You know, like she would be, my mom still, even as an adult.
Speaker 3:So anyhow, Ugh, that is that Terrible, awful, no good, very bad case. Yeah, yep, and like all around, and I, yeah, I'm glad that Robert has not gone into any more trouble, right, I'm actually shocked by no, yeah, it was shocking. I'm glad that he got like the help that he needed and maybe turned shit around. Yeah, because he seemed like he was gonna be Real, real bad. Yeah, an adult.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and he has not so Good on him, yikes, but I think we should.
Speaker 3:James's mom, because, oh, I know, yeah, like legit.
Speaker 1:I well, and they had another baby like shortly after this happened, but then they divorced her and her husband and they're now both like remarry to other people and they were very against them getting out when they did. And she started a foundation like later on, um for for kids and yeah, what's hard like this sentencing of this is hard too, because they are ten.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm, they're ten. What's an appropriate amount of time, right? I mean, even if you keep them in there for 20 years, they're still gonna be 30 by the time they get out a lot of life to live Like what?
Speaker 3:yeah, I mean, what do you do? Yeah, and, and juveniles have lower sentences for a reason because their brains have not fully developed, right, and so how do you expect? Hopefully, it's like at the point where, when they're ten and they're in the hospital and they're getting this therapy and they're getting like extensive treatment. Yeah, that it obviously helped, at least one of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I mean, how do you, how do you put a kid who's ten, let's say for 20 years, in in prison, right in confinement, and then have them get out at 30 and I expect them to Function and society as an adult. Yeah, when you when? The last time you saw the outside world was when you were a child.
Speaker 3:They literally were in longer.
Speaker 1:Then they were out. I think it would be more of a danger to society at that point, because they don't know, like, how to, yeah, drive a car and I have a job how to pay a bill, how to, like, literally do anything that Requires you to be an adult, because they've been in prison since they were literal babies and that's why a lot of the Sentences for youth are so much lighter.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because they they have to factor that stuff in. Yeah, right, as much as we want to be like, they should never get out, they should live the rest of their lives in prison, horrific crime. That's not feasible, because if they live till they're 80, that's 70 years in prison, yeah, and you can't really punish them as an adult when they are 10. Yeah, their mind was not fully developed. No, not even a little bit fully developed. No no, especially as boys, mm-hmm Like they're very sure, ever develop fully?
Speaker 1:No, but they are so much they mature at a very much very slow rate you know then? Then like they both have childhood traumas, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yep, this is like I mean. You want to hate these kids, right, and you do. You hate what they did. I can't imagine the pain that James and his family went through. For sure, like it's awful, it's horrific. But they were also two, ten year olds. Yeah, I Just I can't.
Speaker 1:I can't fathom this?
Speaker 3:and I have almost two ten year olds, yeah, and I just can't. No my mind like, can't wrap around this. No no it's awful.
Speaker 1:Well and how they, like I said, committed the crime just months earlier. They would have never even been convicted now. So how do you say, like a kid just months younger Doesn't get sent to you know prison for anything, but then you want these ten year olds to be in there, for this is an exorbitant amount of time? Like how do you, how do you rectify, like that it is a horrific crime? Like there's just no getting around, that it's so awful, but so just I don't know different.
Speaker 3:This is like really messing with my mind.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I think it's perfect that we have one of the best soul cleanses.
Speaker 3:Ever. All right, let's get to it so.
Speaker 1:Okay, sorry, I just keep it in my microphone, so Am I reading it? I guess you sent me the link, yeah.
Speaker 3:I was gonna say you wanted me to send it to you.
Speaker 1:Oh, righty, lindsay found this one earlier today and we watched this. There's like a video on it and it's so, so cute. So there is this restaurant in Staten Island that highlights home cooking from around the world and it's run by Grandmothers. It's so cute, you guys. So this guy and his name was like now I can't remember because it's Jody Jody.
Speaker 3:Some Italian last name.
Speaker 1:Yeah, anyway, sorry, I forgot your name cuz oh On, here says Joe, but maybe he goes by Joe.
Speaker 3:Yeah cuz. In the video he says Jody. Yes.
Speaker 1:Garavella yeah so he opened this restaurant to try and replace something. He lost his own grandma, who he said was the sweetest woman on earth and she raised him and that she was the best cook. So he started this restaurant and Originally it just had all of the cooks were Nanas that are like the Italian grandma, and they were all Italian. But over the years, over a 100 women have come through the doors as cooks, representing all different countries Sri Lanka, syria, bulgaria, greece, south Korea and Siberian regions. So let's see, they also have visiting contributions of grandmas from Egypt, peru, japan, azerbaijan Sorry if I said that wrong Algeria, turkey and Argentina, but they just come and they cook food from like around the world, like their home cooking, and and there is this one lady on there who was from Greece- she is my, oh, my god so she's like talks about how she came here because her husband was here.
Speaker 1:She has the thickest accent and she said in 2016 her husband died and she said all she would do was cry and what she said cry and Sleeper cry and I can't remember. But it was like so sad. It was sad and her dot I can't remember. It was all in the video but like her daughter or grand granddaughter, daughter, daughter had told her about this restaurant. I was like you need to come with me. Like there's just all these old ladies that are old ladies that works, you know, grandma, yeah, and so she went and now she cooks there and she says how, like she had Kind of like nothing after her husband died and now all these people know her. They all love her, you know, and it gives her like something to look forward to. This other lady that was from, I'm gonna say, syria, talked about how, like she didn't think anybody would want to eat any of her like home cooking, like that no one would like it, and that people love it and they ask her for more.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it just like makes her heart full and happy when people love her food. Yeah, and it's just so and we are able to post the video, so I will post it on our social.
Speaker 1:Yeah cuz, it's just adorable like I want to go to.
Speaker 3:Staten Island. Oh yeah. I know, looks really really freaking good. Yeah, I mean, I don't even just all these old grandma's cooking there. So they're like recipes that have probably been passed down for ages.
Speaker 1:Oh, my god yeah it's probably so good. I so delicious, you know, like homemade.
Speaker 3:Grandma cooking is so good it's so comforting and just like Amazing anyways, and then to be able to go and try, like all of these new cuisines. Yeah, it just sounds. I wish we were closer to Staten.
Speaker 1:Island, and so I guess I guess a name of it is Enno. Teca Maria Is the name of the restaurant. Maria Enno Teca or Enno Teca, and it's open Friday, saturday and Sunday for visitors to get a glimpse around the world. I Just think it's adorable. Yeah, and I love that. Like he Lost his grandma, he's like I need. I need my grandma.
Speaker 3:I need my grandma, so I'm gonna hire some. I'm just gonna have all these grandma's come and cook, because I need to have my grandma and then these poor grandmas who have, like, have had other losses in their lives or things like one was like a refugee, uh-huh. So she talks about how they were kind of forced here and she wasn't like in the best place and super happy, and then she found this place and it just like gave her this whole new like outlook on life and this new beginning Is that she needed and yeah, and it's just, it's so cute.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm so. Grandma's are so cute.
Speaker 1:I know I never had a grandma. That was like a. I guess my dad's mom could cook, but I wasn't there enough. And then my mom's mom like I honestly like never saw her eat, so I don't even know what she's like, like, unless we went out to eat like. I literally never saw her make a meal. She would have her toast with orange marmalade in the morning and her coffee. Other than that, I never saw her like make a meal. She never cooked us like Like big dinners or anything.
Speaker 1:Oh man, so I never like, and she grew up like really rich and they had made, so I don't even know.
Speaker 3:My kids. That's like their favorite thing, like Knox the other day was talking to us and he was like mom, why are grandma's such good cooks? Like every grandma that we have is just there. Their stuff is just so amazing. Yeah, how did they get to be such good cooks? And then he was like so does that mean when I Bring my kids over, you're gonna be a good cook? And I'm like Well, I don't know, because you don't like Grandma left us like all these recipe books. And he's like Made it our goal to cook everything in her recipe book this year because everything that we've made so far has been so delicious Like the best food ever. Yeah and yeah.
Speaker 1:So it's like something that we're doing is cooking through her and I feel like to Our grandma's and like generations before, like a lot of them were stay-at-home moms.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's how they were actually taught those things and they cooked from scratch all the time, because that's just what you did.
Speaker 1:We're like getting into a time. We're like we're all working moms.
Speaker 1:We don't have time to make like home cooked meals, and so I just like can go by the wayside and yeah, but like Cody's birthday is on Sunday and his mom was like, hey, do you want to do like his birthday dinner on his birthday? And I was, like you know, we'll ask him. And he said yes, and so then he gives her. She just asked, like, what do you want to have? And so he gives her like the menu, and then she makes everything from scratch. You know so, and it's always so, so, so good. Yeah, always all of her desserts and All of the food is always just so good, I know so good.
Speaker 3:Even if I have a recipe that's like my grandma's, I feel like it never tastes the same not making it with the same kind? Of love. I know it's something about grandma's, and Damn it.
Speaker 1:I'm a grandma, so I need to figure this shit out right, I know it's like there's certain recipes I'm like I need to get these from your mom so that, like I can make them Mm-hmm. And you know, in times when, like she's unable to, there's gonna be a time where she probably is not gonna Want to make food anymore. Yeah, you know what I mean. Like, at some point, like she gets to like take a break, yeah, but I don't think I'll ever make it as good as her. Like that's what I always get worried about because, like she's just like that.
Speaker 3:That's so good. Well, that's one thing that I'm like really grateful, because Mario's mom has taught me like some recipes and Given me like pans that were hers and now she doesn't cook anymore. So when we go there, I do all the cooking, yeah, and she tells me all the time that I'm as good as her. But it's not true. I mean but?
Speaker 1:at least you know, at least at least we have. Like some of it was passed down right For sure, yeah, yeah, and you are a good cook, so I'm sure it tastes delicious, and you're probably the only one in the family that has made the effort to like learn her cooking, which probably just makes her like happy, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's they like that. It's something that I'm like, so happy that, yeah, we did years and years ago because, right, it took me years and years to learn.
Speaker 1:Well, it's homemade, like Mexican cooking, like tortillas and all the recipes.
Speaker 3:They just the roast shit of this yeah and she's like I don't know, like okay, like how many teaspoons is that? I don't know what fits in my palm, like they do everything measuring with their hands and I'm like I don't know, I'm like a measuring cousin person.
Speaker 1:There was a time when those weren't even like a thing, so you had to just go off of yeah and it's like that's always the best good cooking right oh for sure.
Speaker 3:Yeah, anyways, that was a tangent, but it's adorable. You guys have to watch the video. Go follow us on all of the things. Go watch our tiktok videos.
Speaker 1:Um, interact with us on facebook and instagram and tiktok and join our patreon so you can get our after dark episodes. Yes, people have liked them, well, liked it. So far we only have one out, but I think doing more.
Speaker 3:Well, we've even talked about upping that to two, because that was like something that, yeah, we do all that.
Speaker 2:We just chit chat All the same anyway, so we might as well just turn a camera on.
Speaker 3:Um, and so you'll get even more bonus content like, maybe, probably two, even maybe sometimes more a month, depending on what's going on in our lives. So, yeah, so go do it, um, and remember to keep listening if you want in on the sin. Bye, guys, bye.