{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Emma Jackson reading Doreen Massey","startTime":4.05,"endTime":4.98,"body":"\"There is a buzz about"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson reading Doreen Massey","startTime":4.98,"endTime":9.69,"body":"London, as about so many big cities. As well as draining you,"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson reading Doreen Massey","startTime":9.81,"endTime":13.89,"body":"utterly, as you battle through crowded tubes and buses and"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson reading Doreen Massey","startTime":13.89,"endTime":18.24,"body":"grimly negotiate the hubbub, it returns that lost energy to you."},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson reading Doreen Massey","startTime":18.24,"endTime":22.5,"body":"... And London is enriched now with an increased cultural"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson reading Doreen Massey","startTime":22.5,"endTime":26.31,"body":"diversity, and a sense that the city is going places.\""},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":31.23,"endTime":34.89,"body":"Hello and welcome to Spatial Delight, a podcast"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":34.89,"endTime":38.55,"body":"about the politics of space inspired by the life and work of"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":38.55,"endTime":43.89,"body":"geographer Doreen Massey. I'm your host Agata Lisiak, Associate"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":43.89,"endTime":46.89,"body":"Professor of Migration Studies at Bard College Berlin."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":47.83,"endTime":50.8,"body":"In our previous episode, we talked about geographical"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":50.8,"endTime":56.14,"body":"imaginations. In this one we'll focus on cities. Well, one city"},{"speaker":"in particular","startTime":56.14,"endTime":61.03,"body":"Doreen Massey's adopted home of London. We'll"},{"speaker":"in particular","startTime":61.03,"endTime":64.63,"body":"discuss what makes London a world city, unpack its connections"},{"speaker":"in particular","startTime":64.63,"endTime":68.68,"body":"with some key places elsewhere, and examine how it continues to"},{"speaker":"in particular","startTime":68.68,"endTime":74.62,"body":"be shaped by various forms of colonialism and imperialism. We'll"},{"speaker":"in particular","startTime":74.62,"endTime":77.71,"body":"hear from a range of Londoners as well as Professor Yasmin"},{"speaker":"in particular","startTime":77.71,"endTime":81.82,"body":"Gunaratnam, a sociologist at King's College London and Massey's"},{"speaker":"in particular","startTime":81.82,"endTime":86.05,"body":"former colleague at the Open University. But first, let me"},{"speaker":"introduce my co-host for this episode","startTime":86.05,"endTime":91.12,"body":"Dr. Emma Jackson. Emma is"},{"speaker":"introduce my co-host for this episode","startTime":91.12,"endTime":94.87,"body":"an urban sociologist and ethnographer at Goldsmiths, University"},{"speaker":"introduce my co-host for this episode","startTime":94.87,"endTime":98.86,"body":"of London. She's the author of a book titled Young Homeless"},{"speaker":"People in Urban Space","startTime":98.86,"endTime":103.6,"body":"Fixed in Mobility and the creator of"},{"speaker":"People in Urban Space","startTime":103.72,"endTime":108.01,"body":"Bowling Together, a research project exploring leisure practices"},{"speaker":"People in Urban Space","startTime":108.01,"endTime":112.57,"body":"and urban change through the site of a London bowling alley. I"},{"speaker":"People in Urban Space","startTime":112.57,"endTime":116.62,"body":"travelled to London to meet with Emma on a very ordinary and yet"},{"speaker":"People in Urban Space","startTime":116.62,"endTime":117.64,"body":"special street."},{"speaker":"People in Urban Space","startTime":119.41,"endTime":120.97,"body":"Hi, Emma! Thanks for joining me."},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":121.33,"endTime":122.53,"body":"Hi, thanks for having me."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":122.52,"endTime":125.668,"body":"Emma and I are at Kilburn Laundrette on Kilburn"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":125.735,"endTime":129.889,"body":"High Road, a North London street that is the commercial centre"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":129.956,"endTime":134.177,"body":"of Doreen Massey's old neighbourhood. This is where she did her"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":134.244,"endTime":138.264,"body":"laundry and her shopping and many other things. This is also"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":138.331,"endTime":141.949,"body":"where she felt inspired to think about the innumerable"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":142.016,"endTime":146.103,"body":"connections that bind local places to elsewhere in the world."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":146.17,"endTime":150.19,"body":"It's an ordinary street in a multicultural metropolis. Let's"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":150.257,"endTime":154.478,"body":"hear from Emma what Massey wrote about it some thirty years ago"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":154.545,"endTime":157.56,"body":"in an essay titled \"A Global Sense of Place\"."},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson reading Doreen Massey","startTime":157.0,"endTime":158.703,"body":"\"It is a pretty ordinary"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson reading Doreen Massey","startTime":158.774,"endTime":163.031,"body":"place, north-west of the centre of London. Under the railway"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson reading Doreen Massey","startTime":163.102,"endTime":167.431,"body":"bridge, the newspaper stand sells papers from every county of"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson reading Doreen Massey","startTime":167.502,"endTime":171.831,"body":"what my neighbours, many of whom come from there, still often"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson reading Doreen Massey","startTime":171.902,"endTime":176.373,"body":"call the Irish Free State. The postboxes down the High Road and"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson reading Doreen Massey","startTime":176.444,"endTime":180.702,"body":"many an empty space on the wall are adorned with the letters"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson reading Doreen Massey","startTime":180.773,"endTime":185.314,"body":"IRA. Other available spaces are plastered this week with posters"},{"speaker":"for a special meeting in remembrance","startTime":185.385,"endTime":189.927,"body":"Ten Years after the Hunger"},{"speaker":"for a special meeting in remembrance","startTime":189.998,"endTime":194.114,"body":"Strike. In two shops, I noticed this week's lottery ticket"},{"speaker":"winners","startTime":194.185,"endTime":198.23,"body":"in one the name is Teresa Gleeson, in the other,"},{"speaker":"winners","startTime":198.301,"endTime":202.275,"body":"Chouman Hassan. Thread your way through the often almost"},{"speaker":"winners","startTime":202.346,"endTime":206.888,"body":"stationary traffic diagonally across the road from the newsstand"},{"speaker":"winners","startTime":206.959,"endTime":211.5,"body":"and there's a shop which as long as I can remember has displayed"},{"speaker":"winners","startTime":211.571,"endTime":216.113,"body":"saris in the window. Four life-sized models of Indian women, and"},{"speaker":"winners","startTime":216.184,"endTime":220.442,"body":"reams of cloth. On the door a notice announces a forthcoming"},{"speaker":"concert at Wembley Arena","startTime":220.513,"endTime":224.771,"body":"Anand Miland presents Rekha, live,"},{"speaker":"concert at Wembley Arena","startTime":224.842,"endTime":229.383,"body":"with Aamir Khan, Salman Khan, Jahi Chawla and Raveena Tandon. On"},{"speaker":"concert at Wembley Arena","startTime":229.454,"endTime":233.783,"body":"another ad, for the end of the month, is written, 'All Hindus"},{"speaker":"concert at Wembley Arena","startTime":233.854,"endTime":238.325,"body":"are cordially invited'. In another newsagents I chat with a man"},{"speaker":"concert at Wembley Arena","startTime":238.396,"endTime":242.725,"body":"who keeps it, a Muslim unutterably depressed by events in the"},{"speaker":"concert at Wembley Arena","startTime":242.796,"endTime":247.337,"body":"Gulf, silently chafing at having to sell the Sun. Overhead there"},{"speaker":"concert at Wembley Arena","startTime":247.408,"endTime":251.666,"body":"is always at least one aeroplane - we seem to be on a flight"},{"speaker":"concert at Wembley Arena","startTime":251.737,"endTime":256.208,"body":"path to Heathrow - and by the time they're over Kilburn you can"},{"speaker":"concert at Wembley Arena","startTime":256.279,"endTime":260.679,"body":"see them clearly enough to tell the airline and wonder, as you"},{"speaker":"concert at Wembley Arena","startTime":260.75,"endTime":265.15,"body":"struggle with your shopping, where they're coming from. Below,"},{"speaker":"concert at Wembley Arena","startTime":265.221,"endTime":269.762,"body":"the reason the traffic is snarled up ... is in part because this"},{"speaker":"concert at Wembley Arena","startTime":269.833,"endTime":274.304,"body":"is one of the major entrances to and escape routes from London,"},{"speaker":"concert at Wembley Arena","startTime":274.375,"endTime":278.775,"body":"the road to Staples Corner and the beginning of the M1 to 'the"},{"speaker":"concert at Wembley Arena","startTime":278.846,"endTime":283.246,"body":"North'. This is just the beginnings of a sketch from immediate"},{"speaker":"concert at Wembley Arena","startTime":283.317,"endTime":287.645,"body":"impressions, but a proper analysis could be done of the links"},{"speaker":"concert at Wembley Arena","startTime":287.716,"endTime":292.045,"body":"between Kilburn and the world. And so it could for almost any"},{"speaker":"concert at Wembley Arena","startTime":292.116,"endTime":296.587,"body":"place. Kilburn is a place for which I have a great affection; I"},{"speaker":"concert at Wembley Arena","startTime":296.658,"endTime":300.987,"body":"have lived there many years. It certainly has 'a character of"},{"speaker":"concert at Wembley Arena","startTime":301.058,"endTime":304.819,"body":"its own'. But it is possible to feel all this without"},{"speaker":"concert at Wembley Arena","startTime":304.89,"endTime":309.148,"body":"subscribing to any of the static and defensive - and in that"},{"speaker":"concert at Wembley Arena","startTime":309.219,"endTime":313.618,"body":"sense reactionary - notions of place. First, while Kilburn may"},{"speaker":"concert at Wembley Arena","startTime":313.689,"endTime":318.018,"body":"have a character of its own, it is absolutely not a seamless,"},{"speaker":"concert at Wembley Arena","startTime":318.089,"endTime":322.134,"body":"coherent identity, a single sense of place which everyone"},{"speaker":"concert at Wembley Arena","startTime":322.205,"endTime":326.676,"body":"shares. It could hardly be less so. People's routes through the"},{"speaker":"concert at Wembley Arena","startTime":326.747,"endTime":331.076,"body":"place, their favourite haunts within it, the connections they"},{"speaker":"concert at Wembley Arena","startTime":331.147,"endTime":334.979,"body":"make (physically or by phone or post, or in memory and"},{"speaker":"concert at Wembley Arena","startTime":335.05,"endTime":339.024,"body":"imagination) between here and the rest of the world vary"},{"speaker":"concert at Wembley Arena","startTime":339.095,"endTime":343.424,"body":"enormously. If it is now recognised that people have multiple"},{"speaker":"concert at Wembley Arena","startTime":343.495,"endTime":347.54,"body":"identities then the same point can be made in relation to"},{"speaker":"concert at Wembley Arena","startTime":347.61,"endTime":351.726,"body":"places. Moreover, such multiple identities can either be a"},{"speaker":"concert at Wembley Arena","startTime":351.797,"endTime":355.63,"body":"source of richness, or a source of conflict, or both.\""},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":357.25,"endTime":359.77,"body":"We followed Doreen Massey's footsteps down Kilburn"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":359.77,"endTime":365.56,"body":"High Road. The street has changed since 1991. The Irish Times is"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":365.56,"endTime":369.16,"body":"still sold at the local newsstand, but there's no more graffiti"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":369.16,"endTime":373.81,"body":"expressing support for the IRA. Instead, we saw a call to FREE"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":373.81,"endTime":377.44,"body":"PALESTINE written in black paint over the railway bridge."},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":378.64,"endTime":381.52,"body":"We didn't spot any saris for sale, but we saw a"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":381.52,"endTime":383.95,"body":"few shops selling hijabs and abayas."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":384.479,"endTime":386.909,"body":"There's also a Polish store and a cool looking"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":386.909,"endTime":387.719,"body":"tattoo studio."},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":388.589,"endTime":391.529,"body":"None of the changes we saw seem accidental, but"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":391.529,"endTime":394.679,"body":"reflects migration patterns and transformations in London's"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":394.679,"endTime":395.249,"body":"economy."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":396.14,"endTime":398.24,"body":"It's like what John Allen said in our previous"},{"speaker":"episode","startTime":398.24,"endTime":401.81,"body":"\"when things change elsewhere, Kilburn changes\"."},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":402.75,"endTime":405.36,"body":"Yeah, but the general feeling of cultural richness"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":405.36,"endTime":408.87,"body":"that Massey talks about is still palpable, and it's not just our"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":408.87,"endTime":412.17,"body":"impression. We spoke to some people on Kilburn high road, and"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":412.17,"endTime":413.73,"body":"here's what they said about the street."},{"speaker":"Nathan Queeley-Dennis","startTime":414.62,"endTime":417.11,"body":"My name is Nathan Queeley-Dennis and I am"},{"speaker":"Nathan Queeley-Dennis","startTime":417.11,"endTime":422.57,"body":"an actor, currently working at the Kiln Theatre in Kilburn. My"},{"speaker":"Nathan Queeley-Dennis","startTime":422.6,"endTime":425.48,"body":"knowing Kilburn, I've known of the Kiln Theatre for a very long"},{"speaker":"Nathan Queeley-Dennis","startTime":425.48,"endTime":428.6,"body":"time as an actor. Since I've been at drama school, I've been"},{"speaker":"Nathan Queeley-Dennis","startTime":428.6,"endTime":432.77,"body":"aware of it. But Kilburn as an area - I've not known much of it."},{"speaker":"Nathan Queeley-Dennis","startTime":432.8,"endTime":435.8,"body":"I'm not from London. I'm from Birmingham. So I've not known a"},{"speaker":"Nathan Queeley-Dennis","startTime":435.8,"endTime":437.66,"body":"lot about Kilburn, I've seen it on the maps, I've seen on the"},{"speaker":"Nathan Queeley-Dennis","startTime":437.66,"endTime":440.99,"body":"tube station maps and overground stations and things but I've"},{"speaker":"Nathan Queeley-Dennis","startTime":440.99,"endTime":443.57,"body":"never had a chance to actually like be within the area."},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":443.81,"endTime":445.91,"body":"And what are your first impressions of Kilburn"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":445.91,"endTime":446.33,"body":"High Road?"},{"speaker":"Nathan Queeley-Dennis","startTime":446.6,"endTime":452.69,"body":"I really like it. I like, I love coming"},{"speaker":"Nathan Queeley-Dennis","startTime":452.69,"endTime":456.05,"body":"to places that remind me of where I'm from and home, and the"},{"speaker":"Nathan Queeley-Dennis","startTime":456.05,"endTime":459.41,"body":"kind of like cultural diversity, the fact that like outside now,"},{"speaker":"Nathan Queeley-Dennis","startTime":459.65,"endTime":461.6,"body":"you know, you've got like a Greek restaurant, you've got"},{"speaker":"Nathan Queeley-Dennis","startTime":461.6,"endTime":464.72,"body":"Lebanese restaurants, you've got Thai, you've got like a"},{"speaker":"Nathan Queeley-Dennis","startTime":464.72,"endTime":467.24,"body":"Nando's, you've got a pub that looks like it's been here since"},{"speaker":"Nathan Queeley-Dennis","startTime":467.36,"endTime":472.22,"body":"1898. And then just that all mixed in with a really like, nice"},{"speaker":"Nathan Queeley-Dennis","startTime":472.22,"endTime":475.94,"body":"sense of community, it reminds me of where I grew up. And I, I"},{"speaker":"Nathan Queeley-Dennis","startTime":475.94,"endTime":479.51,"body":"always try to, when I'm living in London, I always try to live"},{"speaker":"Nathan Queeley-Dennis","startTime":479.51,"endTime":482.87,"body":"in areas or exist in areas of London that remind me of that"},{"speaker":"Nathan Queeley-Dennis","startTime":482.87,"endTime":488.9,"body":"rather than the more, I guess, gentrified kind of areas that"},{"speaker":"Nathan Queeley-Dennis","startTime":488.9,"endTime":492.23,"body":"maybe don't feel like they have as much of a soul or a heart."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":494.69,"endTime":498.11,"body":"So Nathan feels that Kilburn is a welcoming place."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":498.29,"endTime":500.12,"body":"That's also what we heard from Taylor."},{"speaker":"Taylor","startTime":501.71,"endTime":506.75,"body":"So my name is Taylor. I usually come to Kilburn mainly"},{"speaker":"Taylor","startTime":506.78,"endTime":513.08,"body":"because I study here at ICMP for music performance. And I'm"},{"speaker":"Taylor","startTime":513.08,"endTime":515.42,"body":"currently in my second year so I've been here around two years,"},{"speaker":"Taylor","startTime":515.42,"endTime":519.17,"body":"but I've also, I've got to know Kilburn a few years ago as well"},{"speaker":"Taylor","startTime":519.17,"endTime":524.3,"body":"when I was like 16, just from visiting here a bit a few times."},{"speaker":"Taylor","startTime":524.33,"endTime":528.05,"body":"And from my take on it, it seems to be quite a nice area, quite"},{"speaker":"Taylor","startTime":528.05,"endTime":531.32,"body":"chilled out. There's a lot of, like, really nice food places"},{"speaker":"Taylor","startTime":531.32,"endTime":535.22,"body":"around as well. The people that I've met around the area have"},{"speaker":"Taylor","startTime":535.22,"endTime":538.19,"body":"been really great as well. So it seems like a really nice kind"},{"speaker":"Taylor","startTime":538.19,"endTime":542.33,"body":"of friendly, almost like kind of vibrant area, I'd say."},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":543.65,"endTime":546.74,"body":"This all sounds very inviting. And Massey's own"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":546.74,"endTime":549.95,"body":"account of Kilburn is very positive too, but she doesn't"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":549.98,"endTime":554.96,"body":"over-romanticise it. She admitted that \"there is, indeed, much"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":554.96,"endTime":558.89,"body":"to delight in\", but she was also very aware of the tensions."},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":559.85,"endTime":563.21,"body":"Muhib, a longtime resident, is concerned by the recent"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":563.24,"endTime":566.51,"body":"transformations of the neighbourhood, especially around Kilburn"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":566.51,"endTime":567.86,"body":"Market where he works."},{"speaker":"Muhib","startTime":568.52,"endTime":571.88,"body":"My name is Muhib, I've been living in this area for"},{"speaker":"Muhib","startTime":571.91,"endTime":580.1,"body":"almost 42 years. And you know, the people change, the atmosphere"},{"speaker":"Muhib","startTime":580.1,"endTime":584.9,"body":"change, Kilburn change, unfortunately for much worse than"},{"speaker":"Muhib","startTime":584.9,"endTime":589.52,"body":"before. And the Kilburn situation is, the Kilburn Market"},{"speaker":"Muhib","startTime":589.52,"endTime":594.83,"body":"situation is worse than before. You know, it's uncertain future."},{"speaker":"Muhib","startTime":594.83,"endTime":598.43,"body":"Some say the market will be demolished, some people say they"},{"speaker":"Muhib","startTime":598.43,"endTime":602.6,"body":"will be here so we don't know when. They gave us a short notice,"},{"speaker":"Muhib","startTime":602.87,"endTime":606.32,"body":"we don't know where to put our stock, what to do in the future."},{"speaker":"Muhib","startTime":607.34,"endTime":611.09,"body":"The street, to be honest with you, every... unfortunately every"},{"speaker":"Muhib","startTime":611.09,"endTime":616.67,"body":"single day we see with one or two incidents. Yes, crime is very"},{"speaker":"Muhib","startTime":616.67,"endTime":620.81,"body":"high. The people are coming out of the bank, you know, they're"},{"speaker":"Muhib","startTime":620.81,"endTime":624.59,"body":"scared, you know, that's, in several location the money has been"},{"speaker":"Muhib","startTime":624.59,"endTime":628.67,"body":"taken away, they will knock down the guy, you know, with 500"},{"speaker":"Muhib","startTime":628.67,"endTime":635.18,"body":"pounds. You know this, this is three-four incidents happen in a"},{"speaker":"Muhib","startTime":635.18,"endTime":640.52,"body":"single day. And the only biggest problem we've got, because they"},{"speaker":"Muhib","startTime":640.52,"endTime":643.73,"body":"resurfaced the road, you know, in the middle of the road there"},{"speaker":"Muhib","startTime":643.73,"endTime":646.97,"body":"is a big bump; when the people are trying to cross the road,"},{"speaker":"Muhib","startTime":647.36,"endTime":651.26,"body":"trying to look right and left to cross the road, they forget"},{"speaker":"Muhib","startTime":651.26,"endTime":655.1,"body":"there is a hump in the middle of the road and so many injuries"},{"speaker":"Muhib","startTime":655.1,"endTime":661.34,"body":"happen here, just next to the, in front of the bus stop. And I'd"},{"speaker":"contacted the Brent council, I said","startTime":661.34,"endTime":665.69,"body":"you know, this one is"},{"speaker":"contacted the Brent council, I said","startTime":665.69,"endTime":671.96,"body":"really, really bad, you know, dangerous. But this is our"},{"speaker":"situation","startTime":671.96,"endTime":675.92,"body":"we are struggling to pay our rent, unfortunately,"},{"speaker":"situation","startTime":675.92,"endTime":687.56,"body":"nowadays. That's all I can say. Sorry if I have been so"},{"speaker":"situation","startTime":687.56,"endTime":689.81,"body":"negative, but I have to tell the truth."},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":690.98,"endTime":693.92,"body":"Massey reminds us in her essay that \"places do not"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":693.92,"endTime":697.76,"body":"have single, 'unique' identities; they are full of internal"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":697.76,"endTime":702.08,"body":"conflicts\". As we heard from Muhib, these conflicts take on"},{"speaker":"different forms","startTime":702.08,"endTime":706.28,"body":"from issues of badly maintained roads to levels"},{"speaker":"different forms","startTime":706.28,"endTime":710.57,"body":"of crime and council plans for redevelopment. And they also"},{"speaker":"different forms","startTime":710.57,"endTime":714.08,"body":"include different expectations of the place. Let's hear from"},{"speaker":"different forms","startTime":714.08,"endTime":718.04,"body":"Dave, the owner of Giggling Angel, a lovely cafe in Kilburn."},{"speaker":"Dave","startTime":718.48,"endTime":722.11,"body":"Okay, I've been here for eleven months, my name is Dave, I"},{"speaker":"Dave","startTime":722.11,"endTime":728.23,"body":"haven't had a day off for eleven months. I love my shop. I'm"},{"speaker":"Dave","startTime":728.23,"endTime":735.58,"body":"trying very hard to make it a success. Kilburn is nice. It could"},{"speaker":"Dave","startTime":735.58,"endTime":739.81,"body":"be bruff every now and again, but I do have lovely clientele."},{"speaker":"Dave","startTime":740.65,"endTime":744.01,"body":"I've got students. There are lots of different cultures that are"},{"speaker":"Dave","startTime":744.01,"endTime":747.76,"body":"coming in, a lot of, like, we got the Arabs, you've got the"},{"speaker":"Dave","startTime":747.76,"endTime":752.56,"body":"English, you got Albanians and lots of like a big mixture, plus"},{"speaker":"Dave","startTime":752.56,"endTime":756.79,"body":"the students. And the students, they're not just English, it"},{"speaker":"Dave","startTime":756.79,"endTime":760.63,"body":"could be like from all over the world. There's a university"},{"speaker":"Dave","startTime":760.63,"endTime":770.38,"body":"called the ICMP. And what else can I say about Kilburn? It's,"},{"speaker":"Dave","startTime":771.43,"endTime":775.75,"body":"it's not easy. It's not easy. I mean, it's one of those areas,"},{"speaker":"Dave","startTime":775.78,"endTime":780.79,"body":"it's hard to get the money because in some areas you can charge,"},{"speaker":"Dave","startTime":780.79,"endTime":786.28,"body":"like, a lot more. But here you have to sort of consider how much"},{"speaker":"Dave","startTime":786.28,"endTime":791.14,"body":"you can charge depending on what the area is really."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":792.86,"endTime":795.56,"body":"So we see various conflicting narratives here."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":796.07,"endTime":799.46,"body":"Some people like that Kilburn hasn't become gentrified. They are"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":799.46,"endTime":802.73,"body":"pleased that the neighbourhood has kept its character and they"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":802.73,"endTime":806.72,"body":"appreciate its relative affordability. But for Dave, as a new"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":806.72,"endTime":811.1,"body":"business owner, this is a double-edged sword. On the one hand,"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":811.13,"endTime":815.0,"body":"the rent is affordable, but on the other, there's only so much"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":815.0,"endTime":818.63,"body":"he can charge his customers for a coffee. He has to work very"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":818.63,"endTime":820.25,"body":"hard to make ends meet."},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":821.24,"endTime":824.27,"body":"For Sylvia, the customer we met in Dave's cafe,"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":824.63,"endTime":828.47,"body":"there were also challenges in inhabiting Kilburn, even though it"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":828.47,"endTime":832.25,"body":"was an area where she enjoyed hanging out. She emphasised how"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":832.25,"endTime":834.95,"body":"her experience was shaped by street harassment."},{"speaker":"Sylvia","startTime":835.62,"endTime":841.35,"body":"Well, I would say is that it's a bit dodgy. And I think"},{"speaker":"Sylvia","startTime":841.35,"endTime":846.06,"body":"if you're going around Kilburn, you need to be, you need to be a"},{"speaker":"Sylvia","startTime":846.06,"endTime":850.44,"body":"bit careful about your pockets. And sometimes it's better to"},{"speaker":"Sylvia","startTime":850.44,"endTime":856.56,"body":"walk around with earphones because it happens - mostly if you're"},{"speaker":"Sylvia","startTime":856.56,"endTime":861.75,"body":"a woman - that people just call you out. And it's just like,"},{"speaker":"Sylvia","startTime":861.75,"endTime":866.25,"body":"even if you don't care, it's just not nice. But apart from that,"},{"speaker":"Sylvia","startTime":866.97,"endTime":869.91,"body":"I really liked the food in here. It's really nice. There are"},{"speaker":"Sylvia","startTime":869.91,"endTime":874.08,"body":"lovely supermarkets and just really cheap as well. So you can"},{"speaker":"Sylvia","startTime":874.08,"endTime":878.19,"body":"go, also if you're a student, it's really good for you. And also"},{"speaker":"Sylvia","startTime":878.19,"endTime":884.73,"body":"the pub scene is really good. So good and bad, I'd say."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":886.08,"endTime":888.84,"body":"These gendered experiences of place resonate with"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":888.84,"endTime":892.59,"body":"Doreen Massey's observation that women's mobility is restricted"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":892.59,"endTime":896.58,"body":"in the city in a thousand different ways, not only by capital,"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":896.85,"endTime":897.96,"body":"but also by men."},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":898.59,"endTime":901.32,"body":"How we experience places then is powerfully"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":901.32,"endTime":906.3,"body":"influenced by many factors such as race, citizenship, class,"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":906.33,"endTime":911.46,"body":"gender and age. For Massey, Kilburn - and any other place for"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":911.46,"endTime":915.99,"body":"that matter - is never just one thing, but rather, \"a meeting"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":915.99,"endTime":921.21,"body":"place of jostling, potentially conflicting trajectories\". As she"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":921.21,"endTime":926.13,"body":"wrote, \"it is (or ought to be) impossible even to begin thinking"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":926.13,"endTime":929.43,"body":"about Kilburn High Road without bringing into play half the"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":929.43,"endTime":932.64,"body":"world, and a considerable amount of British imperialist"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":932.64,"endTime":937.56,"body":"history\". And that, as she insisted, provokes in us a global"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":937.56,"endTime":938.88,"body":"sense of place."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":938.0,"endTime":942.53,"body":"In the passage Emma read out earlier, Massey talks"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":942.53,"endTime":946.25,"body":"about how the global shapes the local. But global-local"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":946.25,"endTime":951.26,"body":"relations are hardly a one-way, top-down process. The local also"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":951.26,"endTime":955.85,"body":"shapes the global, the global is locally produced. Here is"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":955.85,"endTime":960.2,"body":"Massey speaking about it at London's Serpentine Gallery in 2006."},{"speaker":"Doreen Massey","startTime":961.61,"endTime":964.61,"body":"I think very often in political campaigning"},{"speaker":"Doreen Massey","startTime":964.61,"endTime":969.92,"body":"around globalisation, we see the local as the kind of product of"},{"speaker":"Doreen Massey","startTime":969.92,"endTime":973.34,"body":"the global and the local as the victim of the global, you know,"},{"speaker":"Doreen Massey","startTime":973.34,"endTime":976.46,"body":"global forces coming into your region and smashing it up in"},{"speaker":"Doreen Massey","startTime":976.46,"endTime":979.61,"body":"various ways, causing the destruction of local communities,"},{"speaker":"Doreen Massey","startTime":979.94,"endTime":982.67,"body":"causing the closure of factories and all those kinds of things."},{"speaker":"Doreen Massey","startTime":982.67,"endTime":986.84,"body":"And in many places, that is absolutely true. You know, in"},{"speaker":"Doreen Massey","startTime":986.84,"endTime":989.3,"body":"industrial towns in the north of England, that is the dominant"},{"speaker":"Doreen Massey","startTime":989.3,"endTime":992.72,"body":"thing that is going on, in many places in the Global South, that"},{"speaker":"Doreen Massey","startTime":992.72,"endTime":996.98,"body":"is the dominant thing that is going on. But it seems to me if we"},{"speaker":"Doreen Massey","startTime":996.98,"endTime":1001.72,"body":"generalise that story, we end up kind of letting the local off"},{"speaker":"Doreen Massey","startTime":1001.72,"endTime":1005.65,"body":"the hook. We're exonerating the local. Because the global isn't"},{"speaker":"Doreen Massey","startTime":1005.65,"endTime":1009.25,"body":"produced up there. It's not always somewhere else. It's not some"},{"speaker":"Doreen Massey","startTime":1009.25,"endTime":1014.95,"body":"kind of ethereal sphere that just exists nowhere. Globalisation"},{"speaker":"Doreen Massey","startTime":1014.98,"endTime":1020.11,"body":"is produced in local places. And what I'm trying to argue for is"},{"speaker":"Doreen Massey","startTime":1020.14,"endTime":1023.59,"body":"a geography of the understanding of that. And London is one of"},{"speaker":"Doreen Massey","startTime":1023.59,"endTime":1026.98,"body":"the key places in which globalisation is produced."},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1027.86,"endTime":1030.8,"body":"London, as Massey wrote in her book World City,"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1031.19,"endTime":1034.82,"body":"\"has effects on the wider planet beyond it\". \"There is a vast"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1034.82,"endTime":1038.36,"body":"geography of dependencies, relations and effects that spreads"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1038.39,"endTime":1042.74,"body":"out from here around the globe\". We went to London Docklands to"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1042.74,"endTime":1043.91,"body":"see this up close."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1045.83,"endTime":1048.77,"body":"We're in Canary Wharf, in a small park between the"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1048.77,"endTime":1053.93,"body":"skyscrapers. It's a bright April day at lunchtime. Lots of"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1053.93,"endTime":1057.59,"body":"office workers are sitting around on astroturf taking a break in"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1057.59,"endTime":1062.24,"body":"the sun. You can also hear some construction noise, birdsong,"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1062.66,"endTime":1066.59,"body":"fountains and planes departing and landing at the nearby City"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1066.59,"endTime":1072.26,"body":"Airport. It feels very casual. And yet, the bank logos displayed"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1072.26,"endTime":1075.53,"body":"on the surrounding buildings remind us that we're in the heart"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1075.56,"endTime":1077.99,"body":"of one of the financial centres of the world."},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1078.8,"endTime":1081.23,"body":"This part of London has been instrumental to the"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1081.23,"endTime":1085.7,"body":"British and global economy for centuries. The docklands were"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1085.7,"endTime":1089.27,"body":"first developed in the early 19th century by British slave"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1089.27,"endTime":1094.07,"body":"traders and plantation owners. British colonialism led to a huge"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1094.1,"endTime":1098.33,"body":"increase in traffic on the Thames. This led to overcrowding and"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1098.33,"endTime":1101.75,"body":"theft at the existing wharves. The rich felt that they were"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1101.75,"endTime":1105.86,"body":"losing money and needed a more efficient system. Parliament"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1105.86,"endTime":1108.98,"body":"backed the docklands project, as it was also central to British"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1108.98,"endTime":1114.41,"body":"imperial interests. The name, Canary Wharf, comes from Britain's"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1114.41,"endTime":1117.47,"body":"trade connection with the Canary Islands off the western coast"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1117.47,"endTime":1121.37,"body":"of Africa. The docklands were heavily bombed during the Second"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1121.37,"endTime":1125.03,"body":"World War and never fully recovered from the damage. The ships"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1125.03,"endTime":1128.06,"body":"got bigger, and the Port of London relocated further down the"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1128.06,"endTime":1129.74,"body":"Thames, closer to the sea."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1131.33,"endTime":1134.3,"body":"In the 1980s, property developers recognised the"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1134.3,"endTime":1138.02,"body":"potential of this working-class postindustrial area of London."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1138.89,"endTime":1142.16,"body":"As the finance sector grew globally, London's traditional"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1142.16,"endTime":1146.18,"body":"financial district - The City - became too small for the needs"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1146.18,"endTime":1150.65,"body":"of international banks and investment companies. So the British"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1150.65,"endTime":1154.43,"body":"government under Margaret Thatcher supported a plan to transform"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1154.43,"endTime":1158.9,"body":"the docklands into a global financial centre. Doreen Massey was"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1158.9,"endTime":1162.38,"body":"involved in activist battles against this development, but,"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1162.41,"endTime":1166.64,"body":"years later, she admitted that \"even the disputed skyscrapers"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1166.64,"endTime":1170.54,"body":"and the maligned Canary Wharf, give a thrill\". Here's what she"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson reading Doreen Massey","startTime":1170.0,"endTime":1171.471,"body":"\"It was with a kind of"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson reading Doreen Massey","startTime":1170.54,"endTime":1170.96,"body":"wrote."},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson reading Doreen Massey","startTime":1171.538,"endTime":1175.82,"body":"guilty delight that with a friend, a visitor from 'the North', I"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson reading Doreen Massey","startTime":1175.887,"endTime":1179.768,"body":"rode round and round some years ago on the Docklands Light"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson reading Doreen Massey","startTime":1179.835,"endTime":1183.983,"body":"Railway. With a day-pass you can treat it like a funfair, it's"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson reading Doreen Massey","startTime":1184.05,"endTime":1188.198,"body":"tinny precariousness making it feel even more like a ride in a"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson reading Doreen Massey","startTime":1188.265,"endTime":1192.346,"body":"fairground in and amongst the amazing concrete and glass. The"},{"speaker":"ambiguities abound","startTime":1192.413,"endTime":1196.695,"body":"I campaigned against this stuff! Yet even as"},{"speaker":"ambiguities abound","startTime":1196.762,"endTime":1200.709,"body":"we object, the very energy, the preposterousness of it all,"},{"speaker":"ambiguities abound","startTime":1200.776,"endTime":1204.59,"body":"enthrals... This is a city it is very easy to celebrate\"."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1205.85,"endTime":1208.52,"body":"It is easy to celebrate London, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1208.939,"endTime":1211.279,"body":"We certainly had a good time visiting the places"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1211.279,"endTime":1214.969,"body":"that Massey wrote about. One of the appealing things about her"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1214.969,"endTime":1218.449,"body":"work is that she always balances taking enjoyment in the city"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1218.659,"endTime":1222.409,"body":"with a concern for the forms of inequality and social injustice"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1222.499,"endTime":1223.609,"body":"that are at its core."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1224.92,"endTime":1229.24,"body":"London as engines of this project. As we heard in"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1229.24,"endTime":1239.2,"body":"Kilburn, London itself is affected by global forces. But that"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1239.2,"endTime":1242.68,"body":"doesn't mean that all those forces have their origins in faraway"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1242.68,"endTime":1246.64,"body":"places. In some cases, they're just a subway ride away."},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1247.96,"endTime":1251.11,"body":"London's imperialist and colonialist legacies are"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1251.11,"endTime":1254.89,"body":"evident on the city streets, and they also reach behind closed"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1254.89,"endTime":1259.75,"body":"doors into our classrooms, living rooms, offices, shops and"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1259.75,"endTime":1264.25,"body":"hospital wards. We reached out to Professor Yasmin Gunaratnam to"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1264.25,"endTime":1265.96,"body":"discuss this in more detail."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1266.56,"endTime":1269.29,"body":"Yasmin is a sociologist and Professor of Social"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1269.29,"endTime":1273.7,"body":"Justice at King's College London. She is the author of Death and"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1273.7,"endTime":1277.93,"body":"the Migrant and co-author - with Emma Jackson and several other"},{"speaker":"colleagues - of Go Home","startTime":1277.93,"endTime":1281.56,"body":"The Politics of Immigration"},{"speaker":"colleagues - of Go Home","startTime":1281.56,"endTime":1285.49,"body":"Controversies. Yasmin, welcome to Spatial Delight."},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1285.91,"endTime":1287.74,"body":"Thank you, I'm really looking forward to the"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1287.74,"endTime":1288.73,"body":"conversation"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1289.38,"endTime":1292.74,"body":"For Doreen Massey, any place is always a meeting"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1292.74,"endTime":1296.73,"body":"place, it's always connected to other places. And that's"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1296.73,"endTime":1300.39,"body":"something that your book, Death and the Migrant, also captures"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1300.39,"endTime":1305.22,"body":"in a powerful way. What can we learn about London and its links"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1305.22,"endTime":1308.49,"body":"to elsewhere in the world if we start with the place of the"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1308.49,"endTime":1310.59,"body":"hospital or the hospice?"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1311.47,"endTime":1314.92,"body":"Yeah, I think that question was really at the"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1314.92,"endTime":1319.84,"body":"centre of Death and the Migrant. So that book took me a very,"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1319.84,"endTime":1324.76,"body":"very long time to write. And I also wanted to write it in a"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1324.76,"endTime":1328.66,"body":"different way - so not the sort of standard academic writing. So"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1328.66,"endTime":1332.26,"body":"I had to do a lot of unlearning. But I think I was really"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1332.26,"endTime":1337.66,"body":"thinking about London as a necropolis. So, what happens when we"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1337.66,"endTime":1343.33,"body":"look at other layers of a city. And for me, illness and death"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1343.33,"endTime":1347.47,"body":"had been very much a part of my life, you know, so I spent most"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1347.47,"endTime":1352.96,"body":"of my 20s caring for my parents. I looked after my father for"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1352.96,"endTime":1356.65,"body":"about seven and a half years and just very practical things"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1356.65,"endTime":1360.34,"body":"about how a city becomes very different when you've got someone"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1360.34,"endTime":1363.79,"body":"in a wheelchair, you know, so my eyes would be always going to"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1363.79,"endTime":1369.46,"body":"where the dropped kerb was, what the terrain was like, those"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1369.46,"endTime":1375.94,"body":"sorts of things. And then St. Christopher's Hospice came into my"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1375.94,"endTime":1380.17,"body":"life when my mum was diagnosed with a terminal illness. And I"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1380.17,"endTime":1385.09,"body":"was just really interested in matters of hospitality, I think,"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1385.12,"endTime":1388.3,"body":"and those are really taken up in different ways. But the hospice"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1388.3,"endTime":1394.84,"body":"movement very much comes out of a history of migrants and"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1394.84,"endTime":1399.79,"body":"hospitality. So the very early mediaeval hospices used to be on"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1399.79,"endTime":1403.66,"body":"routes that pilgrims took, you know, and they would give"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1403.69,"endTime":1408.16,"body":"hospitality to pilgrims and those who were ill, and they often"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1408.16,"endTime":1413.53,"body":"became places where pilgrims would die. And so I was really"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1413.53,"endTime":1418.81,"body":"thinking about why isn't anybody talking about this? You know,"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1418.81,"endTime":1422.92,"body":"so a lot of attention in terms of how many of the early studies"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1423.13,"endTime":1428.65,"body":"and urban ethnographies were done were really taken up by young"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1428.65,"endTime":1435.22,"body":"Black men, focus on young Black men, so very, you know, I think"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1435.22,"endTime":1438.91,"body":"racialised in a way that's being hyper-physical. And so there"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1438.91,"endTime":1443.86,"body":"was this sort of ableism inherent in the ethnographic lens. And"},{"speaker":"I really wanted to say","startTime":1443.86,"endTime":1448.33,"body":"just hang on a moment, you know, that"},{"speaker":"I really wanted to say","startTime":1448.33,"endTime":1452.74,"body":"there are really important matters of race and ethnicity and"},{"speaker":"I really wanted to say","startTime":1452.77,"endTime":1457.75,"body":"multiculture going on by the bedside and in the front room and"},{"speaker":"I really wanted to say","startTime":1457.75,"endTime":1463.75,"body":"in places which are really overlooked. And so what happens when"},{"speaker":"I really wanted to say","startTime":1463.75,"endTime":1467.92,"body":"we bring those matters back in and see the city in a different"},{"speaker":"I really wanted to say","startTime":1467.92,"endTime":1474.37,"body":"way? And so particularly when I started doing my work, I think"},{"speaker":"I really wanted to say","startTime":1474.37,"endTime":1478.27,"body":"of them, I sort of call them in my mind 'generation exodus', so"},{"speaker":"I really wanted to say","startTime":1478.27,"endTime":1483.7,"body":"this is Britain's post-war - post-World War Two - big cohort of"},{"speaker":"I really wanted to say","startTime":1483.7,"endTime":1487.12,"body":"migrants, which are often called the 'Windrush generation' now"},{"speaker":"I really wanted to say","startTime":1487.12,"endTime":1491.62,"body":"in shorthand. So these were people who came over to Britain"},{"speaker":"I really wanted to say","startTime":1491.62,"endTime":1498.19,"body":"enabled by a change in the 1948 Immigration Act, which gave"},{"speaker":"I really wanted to say","startTime":1498.22,"endTime":1502.39,"body":"rights of residents really and rights to vote as well to people"},{"speaker":"I really wanted to say","startTime":1502.39,"endTime":1507.61,"body":"from independent Commonwealth countries and former colonies. And"},{"speaker":"I really wanted to say","startTime":1507.61,"endTime":1511.96,"body":"so my parents were kind of a later part of that, you know,"},{"speaker":"I really wanted to say","startTime":1512.17,"endTime":1516.07,"body":"generation of people who were actively recruited, I should say,"},{"speaker":"I really wanted to say","startTime":1516.43,"endTime":1522.1,"body":"by Britain to fulfil, you know, labour shortages. So, there were"},{"speaker":"I really wanted to say","startTime":1522.1,"endTime":1525.94,"body":"stories, lots of stories of what it was like to come here in the"},{"speaker":"I really wanted to say","startTime":1525.94,"endTime":1534.79,"body":"60s, you know, and late 50s. And these were stories about racism"},{"speaker":"I really wanted to say","startTime":1534.79,"endTime":1539.5,"body":"on the streets, racism in the buses, getting jobs, you know,"},{"speaker":"I really wanted to say","startTime":1539.5,"endTime":1543.01,"body":"really blatant, and people were thinking about these on their"},{"speaker":"I really wanted to say","startTime":1543.01,"endTime":1544.36,"body":"deathbeds, you know."},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1544.99,"endTime":1547.6,"body":"Massey asks some uncomfortable and important"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1547.6,"endTime":1551.47,"body":"questions about London and London's relationship to elsewhere,"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1551.74,"endTime":1554.86,"body":"particularly in terms of recruiting workers from the Global"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1554.86,"endTime":1558.88,"body":"South. And she argued that \"we can build a responsible 'politics"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1558.88,"endTime":1562.27,"body":"of place beyond place' that asks serious questions about the"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1562.27,"endTime":1565.99,"body":"global impact of the local - a global ethics of the local"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1565.99,"endTime":1570.94,"body":"place\". So what, in your opinion, would taking responsibility"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1571.18,"endTime":1574.51,"body":"for London's extractive relationships that are the places look"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1574.0,"endTime":1577.45,"body":"That's such a big question! So I guess I'll"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1574.51,"endTime":1574.99,"body":"like?"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1577.53,"endTime":1582.344,"body":"sort of answer it in a lowercase register. But I also really"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1582.424,"endTime":1587.238,"body":"love that quote, a 'place beyond place' and, and just coming"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1587.319,"endTime":1592.293,"body":"back to it, I think again to Doreen's sort of analytic and her"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1592.373,"endTime":1597.027,"body":"way of approaching things, it really holds this tension, I"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1596.11,"endTime":1624.631,"body":"Yasmin told us about a book, The Migrant's"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1597.107,"endTime":1602.162,"body":"think, between an absolute fidelity to territory and, you know,"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1602.242,"endTime":1607.377,"body":"to place in that sense, but also that moving into what she would"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1607.458,"endTime":1612.593,"body":"term as the relationality of space, of space always being on the"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1612.673,"endTime":1617.808,"body":"move. And so I really love that restless pacing that she does in"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1617.888,"endTime":1623.023,"body":"her work between really respecting territory and the locatedness"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1623.104,"endTime":1627.837,"body":"of place, but also recognising its entanglements. So one of"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1625.31,"endTime":1664.019,"body":"Paradox, which captures London's entanglements with other"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1627.918,"endTime":1632.571,"body":"Doreen's colleagues at the Open University and who's now a"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1632.652,"endTime":1637.626,"body":"professor there is Parvati Raghuram and she did some work with"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1637.706,"endTime":1642.681,"body":"colleagues on what she calls the 'perverse subsidy', you know,"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1642.761,"endTime":1647.656,"body":"of African workers, care workers, particularly doctors to the"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1647.736,"endTime":1652.63,"body":"UK. I think that global care chain really came up in terms of"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1652.71,"endTime":1657.846,"body":"the pandemic and thinking about place beyond place, really. So I"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1657.926,"endTime":1662.9,"body":"was reading a study of the very early statistics that came out"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1662.981,"endTime":1667.313,"body":"and deaths from COVID 19 among healthcare workers were"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1664.698,"endTime":1702.727,"body":"places. She was impressed by how the author Suzanne Hall"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1667.394,"endTime":1672.529,"body":"predominantly those from racialised minorities. And this brought"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1672.609,"endTime":1677.423,"body":"up questions about them being on the front line. So that's a"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1677.503,"endTime":1682.638,"body":"military metaphor, but you know, who... that really, people from"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1682.719,"endTime":1687.854,"body":"racialised, from global majorities are often shock absorbers for"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1687.934,"endTime":1693.069,"body":"people in the Global North in lots of ways. And that was brought"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1693.149,"endTime":1697.562,"body":"out very clearly in the pandemic. But I also think it's"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1697.642,"endTime":1702.617,"body":"something that's continuing today, you know, you walk into any"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1702.697,"endTime":1707.752,"body":"city hospital, really, and it's predominantly - you can see the"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1703.406,"endTime":1723.1,"body":"visualises these connections,"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1707.832,"endTime":1710.32,"body":"racialisation of the workforce."},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1723.74,"endTime":1727.58,"body":"And Suzanne does that so beautifully in that"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1727.58,"endTime":1732.14,"body":"book where she works with an artist to create these sorts of"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1732.14,"endTime":1737.93,"body":"world street maps. And they are absolutely stunning. So on a"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1737.93,"endTime":1742.85,"body":"page, like, at the top of the page, you have a street, and then"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1742.88,"endTime":1746.99,"body":"out of it is - laid horizontally across the page is - a map of"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1746.99,"endTime":1752.45,"body":"the world. And they draw threads from the street to, you know,"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1752.48,"endTime":1758.09,"body":"where the shop owner was born. It's just, just comes out onto"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1758.09,"endTime":1761.96,"body":"the map, and you can see this huge, rich multiculture really"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1761.96,"endTime":1766.82,"body":"that she just makes present. And so there's that and then also"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1766.82,"endTime":1770.51,"body":"the politics of regeneration, you know, which feels really"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1770.51,"endTime":1773.72,"body":"important in thinking about what's happening in London at the"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1773.72,"endTime":1780.74,"body":"moment, and how it really affects these small shop owners. And"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1780.74,"endTime":1785.93,"body":"so I think that study really manages to do that work that Doreen"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1785.93,"endTime":1789.53,"body":"kind of set out in terms of thinking about place as being also"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1789.53,"endTime":1790.52,"body":"unbounded."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1791.05,"endTime":1793.75,"body":"We will talk about urban regeneration projects in"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1793.75,"endTime":1798.16,"body":"our next episode, Cities For the Many, Not the Few. But before"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1798.16,"endTime":1802.15,"body":"we move on, here's a Doreen Massey story that Yasmin kindly"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1802.15,"endTime":1805.51,"body":"shared with us. It's from a conversation they had over dinner in"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1805.51,"endTime":1806.68,"body":"Soho one night,"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1807.52,"endTime":1810.16,"body":"Doreen was saying, she just mentioned very"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1810.16,"endTime":1813.91,"body":"casually that she never had a washing machine and never would"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1814.12,"endTime":1818.89,"body":"want to own one. Because she saw the laundrette as being a key"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1818.89,"endTime":1823.81,"body":"site in the history of working-class communities, you know. And"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1824.8,"endTime":1828.94,"body":"out of all the discussion and the theory we had, I remember,"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1828.94,"endTime":1835.06,"body":"just really something just knocked me over with that, because"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1835.48,"endTime":1839.89,"body":"that level of thinking through of your everyday life, and then,"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1840.43,"endTime":1844.54,"body":"you know, I can't imagine it was particularly convenient to be"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1844.54,"endTime":1849.19,"body":"doing that. But it was that commitment to be, to really thinking"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1849.19,"endTime":1854.68,"body":"through what community is, what community she'd come from, and"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1854.68,"endTime":1858.73,"body":"you know, seeing a hub of that in different spaces, I think. But"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1859.24,"endTime":1862.87,"body":"yeah, it just struck me as being so much work. And that's"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1862.93,"endTime":1864.46,"body":"typically Doreen."},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1865.24,"endTime":1868.33,"body":"We actually went to the launderette on Kilburn"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1868.36,"endTime":1871.03,"body":"High Road and did a bit of recording in there for this podcast."},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1871.36,"endTime":1875.56,"body":"Oh, great! And what was it like? Was it, were"},{"speaker":"Yasmin Gunaratnam","startTime":1875.56,"endTime":1877.0,"body":"there lots of people there or?"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1877.27,"endTime":1879.07,"body":"There were quite a few people there."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1879.37,"endTime":1881.77,"body":"And they still use coins, which was, I think, the"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1881.77,"endTime":1885.28,"body":"only time in London on this trip that I saw anybody use cash."},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1886.57,"endTime":1888.07,"body":"But that's part of why the laundrette is an"},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1888.07,"endTime":1889.21,"body":"inclusive place."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak: So, we leave this episode where we started","startTime":1890.23,"endTime":1893.5,"body":"on"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak: So, we leave this episode where we started","startTime":1893.5,"endTime":1897.85,"body":"Kilburn High Road. Doreen Massey was deeply attached to Kilburn"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak: So, we leave this episode where we started","startTime":1897.85,"endTime":1901.33,"body":"as her home and as a place that inspired her thinking about"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak: So, we leave this episode where we started","startTime":1901.33,"endTime":1905.92,"body":"globalisation. The street had a special place in her life, but"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak: So, we leave this episode where we started","startTime":1905.92,"endTime":1910.54,"body":"it's really just an ordinary street. Perhaps listening to this"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak: So, we leave this episode where we started","startTime":1910.54,"endTime":1914.53,"body":"episode, you recognise some elements that remind you of other"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak: So, we leave this episode where we started","startTime":1914.53,"endTime":1918.58,"body":"places you know, and maybe you feel inspired to think about"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak: So, we leave this episode where we started","startTime":1918.58,"endTime":1922.54,"body":"their global connections. That's a global sense of place in"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak: So, we leave this episode where we started","startTime":1922.54,"endTime":1926.47,"body":"action. Thank you, Emma, for joining me on this adventure."},{"speaker":"Emma Jackson","startTime":1927.4,"endTime":1928.42,"body":"It was a delight."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak: In World City Doreen Massey asks","startTime":1928.0,"endTime":1933.79,"body":"What does London"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak: In World City Doreen Massey asks","startTime":1933.79,"endTime":1937.36,"body":"stand for? We'd love to hear your responses to her question."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak: In World City Doreen Massey asks","startTime":1937.87,"endTime":1941.44,"body":"What does London mean to you? What are your experiences of the"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak: In World City Doreen Massey asks","startTime":1941.44,"endTime":1945.16,"body":"city? Does your London resemble the buzzy, draining,"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak: In World City Doreen Massey asks","startTime":1945.19,"endTime":1948.13,"body":"multicultural city Massey describes in the quote that opened"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak: In World City Doreen Massey asks","startTime":1948.13,"endTime":1951.55,"body":"this episode? Please use the form in the show notes to share"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak: In World City Doreen Massey asks","startTime":1951.55,"endTime":1952.51,"body":"your thoughts with us."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak: In World City Doreen Massey asks","startTime":1953.53,"endTime":1956.17,"body":"To learn more about the things we discussed today, go to the"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak: In World City Doreen Massey asks","startTime":1956.17,"endTime":1959.59,"body":"podcast page at thesociologicalreview.org where you'll find a"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak: In World City Doreen Massey asks","startTime":1959.59,"endTime":1964.93,"body":"list of resources. Today's episode was created by Susan Stone,"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak: In World City Doreen Massey asks","startTime":1965.23,"endTime":1970.9,"body":"Reece Cox, Adele Martin, Bose Sarmiento and me, Agata Lisiak."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak: In World City Doreen Massey asks","startTime":1971.62,"endTime":1975.19,"body":"Spatial Delight is hosted by the Sociological Review Foundation"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak: In World City Doreen Massey asks","startTime":1975.37,"endTime":1978.79,"body":"and funded by the Volkswagen Foundation. Many thanks to my"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak: In World City Doreen Massey asks","startTime":1978.79,"endTime":1982.45,"body":"wonderful co-host Emma Jackson and our brilliant guest Yasmin"},{"speaker":"Gunaratnam. To the people we met on Kilburn High Road","startTime":1982.45,"endTime":1986.56,"body":"Nathan,"},{"speaker":"Taylor, Muhib, Dave and Sylvia","startTime":1986.59,"endTime":1991.69,"body":"thank you for generously sharing"},{"speaker":"Taylor, Muhib, Dave and Sylvia","startTime":1991.69,"endTime":1996.22,"body":"your Kilburn experiences with us. Thank you for listening."}]}