{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":2.52,"endTime":4.23,"body":"\"And all of it -- all of"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":4.23,"endTime":8.07,"body":"these acres of Manchester -- was divided up into football"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":8.07,"endTime":13.2,"body":"pitches and rugby pitches ... the whole vast area would be"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":13.2,"endTime":17.46,"body":"covered with hundreds of little people, all running around after"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":17.46,"endTime":22.98,"body":"balls, as far as the eye could see. I remember all this very"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":22.98,"endTime":27.93,"body":"sharply. And I remember, too, it striking me very clearly --"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":28.29,"endTime":32.88,"body":"even then, as a puzzled, slightly thoughtful little girl -- that"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":32.91,"endTime":37.35,"body":"all this huge stretch of the Mersey flood plane had been"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":37.35,"endTime":43.41,"body":"entirely given over to boys. I did not go to those playing"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":43.41,"endTime":48.48,"body":"fields -- they seemed barred, another world (though today, with"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":48.48,"endTime":54.12,"body":"more nerve and some consciousness of being a space invader, I do"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":54.12,"endTime":57.0,"body":"stand on football terraces -- and love it).\""},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":58.05,"endTime":61.5,"body":"Hello and welcome to Spatial Delight, a podcast"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":61.5,"endTime":65.01,"body":"about the politics of space inspired by the life and work of"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":65.01,"endTime":70.02,"body":"geographer Doreen Massey. I'm your host Agata Lisiak, Associate"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":70.02,"endTime":73.95,"body":"Professor of Migration Studies at Bard College Berlin. The title"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":73.95,"endTime":78.12,"body":"of today's episode is Space Invaders. Yes, like the popular"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":78.12,"endTime":81.84,"body":"video game. But that's not what our episode is about. It's about"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":81.84,"endTime":86.13,"body":"what happens when some bodies -- some people -- come to occupy"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":86.13,"endTime":89.01,"body":"spaces that they're not expected to enter."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":90.24,"endTime":92.94,"body":"I couldn't think of a better person to discuss this with than"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":92.94,"endTime":97.17,"body":"Dr. Nirmal Puwar, a sociologist at Goldsmiths, University of"},{"speaker":"London, and the author of Space Invaders","startTime":97.17,"endTime":101.88,"body":"Race, Gender and"},{"speaker":"London, and the author of Space Invaders","startTime":101.88,"endTime":105.99,"body":"Bodies Out of Place. Nirmal interviewed a hundred British"},{"speaker":"London, and the author of Space Invaders","startTime":105.99,"endTime":109.65,"body":"Members of Parliament and senior civil servants. She wanted to"},{"speaker":"London, and the author of Space Invaders","startTime":109.65,"endTime":114.06,"body":"understand what happens when women and racialised minorities"},{"speaker":"London, and the author of Space Invaders","startTime":114.39,"endTime":118.23,"body":"take up privileged positions, which have not been reserved for"},{"speaker":"London, and the author of Space Invaders","startTime":118.23,"endTime":122.55,"body":"them. Space Invaders was published almost twenty years ago, but"},{"speaker":"London, and the author of Space Invaders","startTime":122.55,"endTime":126.96,"body":"it continues to resonate in powerful ways because despite some"},{"speaker":"London, and the author of Space Invaders","startTime":126.96,"endTime":130.74,"body":"progress, many people are still being excluded from important"},{"speaker":"London, and the author of Space Invaders","startTime":130.74,"endTime":131.52,"body":"spaces."},{"speaker":"London, and the author of Space Invaders","startTime":132.87,"endTime":136.26,"body":"Nirmal's book has been hugely influential among researchers,"},{"speaker":"London, and the author of Space Invaders","startTime":136.26,"endTime":141.27,"body":"activists and artists. It inspired important initiatives such as"},{"speaker":"London, and the author of Space Invaders","startTime":141.3,"endTime":145.65,"body":"Museum Space Invaders, a network of intersectional feminists"},{"speaker":"London, and the author of Space Invaders","startTime":145.68,"endTime":149.61,"body":"claiming equal space for all women and non-binary folks in UK"},{"speaker":"London, and the author of Space Invaders","startTime":149.61,"endTime":154.23,"body":"museums, galleries and the heritage sector. I've been teaching"},{"speaker":"London, and the author of Space Invaders","startTime":154.23,"endTime":158.01,"body":"Space Invaders for several years now. And I always look forward"},{"speaker":"London, and the author of Space Invaders","startTime":158.01,"endTime":161.49,"body":"to the class discussions that the book generates. It motivates"},{"speaker":"London, and the author of Space Invaders","startTime":161.49,"endTime":165.24,"body":"students to reflect on their positionalities in exclusive spaces"},{"speaker":"London, and the author of Space Invaders","startTime":165.42,"endTime":169.35,"body":"including, of course, academia itself. And I keep getting"},{"speaker":"London, and the author of Space Invaders","startTime":169.35,"endTime":174.87,"body":"inspired by the book myself. In fact, it's safe to say I have an"},{"speaker":"London, and the author of Space Invaders","startTime":174.87,"endTime":179.76,"body":"academic crush on Nirmal Puwar. So I was very excited, and"},{"speaker":"London, and the author of Space Invaders","startTime":179.76,"endTime":183.18,"body":"perhaps a tiny bit intimidated, when she agreed to speak to me"},{"speaker":"London, and the author of Space Invaders","startTime":183.18,"endTime":184.23,"body":"for this podcast."},{"speaker":"London, and the author of Space Invaders","startTime":186.01,"endTime":188.89,"body":"I travelled to Nirmal's home in Coventry to talk about the"},{"speaker":"London, and the author of Space Invaders","startTime":188.89,"endTime":193.03,"body":"concept of space invaders, and also to visit the city that she's"},{"speaker":"London, and the author of Space Invaders","startTime":193.03,"endTime":197.08,"body":"written about in her more recent essays. Nirmal very kindly"},{"speaker":"London, and the author of Space Invaders","startTime":197.08,"endTime":200.35,"body":"invited me to her living room where we chatted for hours over"},{"speaker":"London, and the author of Space Invaders","startTime":200.35,"endTime":204.13,"body":"copious cups of chai. We actually spent most of our time talking"},{"speaker":"London, and the author of Space Invaders","startTime":204.13,"endTime":207.7,"body":"about the books we love and authors we admire, including Doreen"},{"speaker":"London, and the author of Space Invaders","startTime":207.7,"endTime":208.75,"body":"Massey, of course!"},{"speaker":"London, and the author of Space Invaders","startTime":209.97,"endTime":213.93,"body":"'Space invader' is a key term in much of your work. It even"},{"speaker":"London, and the author of Space Invaders","startTime":213.93,"endTime":217.14,"body":"lends your book its title. How did you first encounter it?"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":217.56,"endTime":221.58,"body":"Yeah, I came across the term when I was quite lost"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":221.61,"endTime":226.2,"body":"with my data analysis. So I had rooms full of transcripts of"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":226.2,"endTime":231.99,"body":"stories of having conducted 100 interviews with senior women and"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":231.99,"endTime":236.79,"body":"people of colour in the senior civil service and the British"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":236.79,"endTime":240.9,"body":"House of Commons. And I was trying to make sense of their"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":240.9,"endTime":245.34,"body":"position because they were in an institution that wasn't"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":245.34,"endTime":249.75,"body":"designed for them. But now they had arrived. And these"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":249.75,"endTime":254.22,"body":"narratives were full of conflictual stories and contradictions."},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":254.52,"endTime":259.29,"body":"So alongside listening to my transcripts, I was reading a lot of"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":259.29,"endTime":263.64,"body":"books, and doing that shuttling of back and forth between books"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":263.64,"endTime":268.26,"body":"and data. Now, one of the central books became Doreen Massey's"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":268.26,"endTime":272.76,"body":"book Space, Place and Gender. And in there, there's an essay"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":272.82,"endTime":277.23,"body":"where she uses the word 'space invaders'. And it refers to her"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":277.23,"endTime":280.92,"body":"experience -- a very vivid scene, actually, she provides for us,"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":280.92,"endTime":285.9,"body":"written in quite a poetic language, I would say -- and it's a"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":285.9,"endTime":289.53,"body":"scene from Manchester, when she's a young girl, Saturday"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":289.53,"endTime":293.55,"body":"morning, she's going into town on the bus, on the top deck with"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":293.55,"endTime":297.75,"body":"her mother. She looks across the playing fields and she sees"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":297.75,"endTime":301.53,"body":"lots of legs running around, and they're boys, boys on the"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":301.53,"endTime":305.82,"body":"playing field, playing football and rugby. But she didn't feel"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":305.82,"endTime":311.01,"body":"included in that, that wasn't her space. But now as an adult,"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":311.01,"endTime":314.13,"body":"she reflects on how she actually just does go to the football"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":314.13,"endTime":319.2,"body":"terraces, she does watch the matches. And even if she's a space"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":319.2,"endTime":325.32,"body":"invader, she's there. So she's arrived. She's a space invader."},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":325.5,"endTime":328.98,"body":"She belongs in one sense, but doesn't fully belong. She can't be"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":328.98,"endTime":334.17,"body":"barred, but she's there. And that, for me, made enormous sense"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":334.17,"endTime":337.86,"body":"for thinking about how people have taken up positions, which"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":337.86,"endTime":341.1,"body":"have historically and conceptually not been designed for them,"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":341.76,"endTime":345.84,"body":"but at the same time, they are insiders. And it's that space of"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":345.84,"endTime":350.79,"body":"tension, or that tenuous location that drew me to the term"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":351.03,"endTime":356.52,"body":"'space invader' and with it I inhabit a whole new framework by"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":356.55,"endTime":360.66,"body":"moving back and forth between the term and my data."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":361.59,"endTime":365.55,"body":"Another key term you use in your book is 'somatic"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":365.55,"endTime":371.1,"body":"norm'. What is it? And how does it connect to 'space invaders'?"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":372.11,"endTime":375.47,"body":"Yes, 'somatic norm' is a bodily term -- so our"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":375.47,"endTime":381.74,"body":"somatics -- and it helps us to understand issues that are"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":381.74,"endTime":387.92,"body":"normally labelled diversity or inclusion, with an emphasis on"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":387.95,"endTime":392.15,"body":"counting how many bodies are of so and so, I don't know,"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":392.15,"endTime":396.86,"body":"ethnicity or genders. And I wanted to go beyond that and to"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":396.86,"endTime":401.72,"body":"think about [how] diversity inclusion is not only about bringing"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":401.72,"endTime":405.56,"body":"more bodies in, different bodies in, but rather we need to look"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":405.56,"endTime":409.7,"body":"at what kind of bodies are the norm. What are the conditions of"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":409.7,"endTime":413.69,"body":"inclusion? So somatic norm is really central for thinking about"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":413.69,"endTime":417.32,"body":"what are the conditions of inclusion, because it points to these"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":417.32,"endTime":424.13,"body":"very subtle manifestations of exclusion. So the somatic norm is"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":424.16,"endTime":427.85,"body":"always there in different institutions. And it's a way of"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":427.85,"endTime":432.35,"body":"gauging very quickly in an instant if that person belongs or"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":432.35,"endTime":437.36,"body":"not. And that comes with a whole series of assumptions in terms"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":437.36,"endTime":442.1,"body":"of what that person can do, the capacities they have. And if"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":442.1,"endTime":445.43,"body":"you're not the somatic norm, there's a burden of doubt that"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":445.43,"endTime":452.84,"body":"could come along with you. And if the outsider makes a mistake"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":452.84,"endTime":455.42,"body":"-- that historical outsider who's not the somatic [norm] --"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":455.42,"endTime":459.95,"body":"makes a mistake, the mistakes can be amplified. I took that kind"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":459.95,"endTime":464.81,"body":"of analysis from Frantz Fanon. When he discusses a doctor for"},{"speaker":"Martinique in Paris, he says","startTime":464.81,"endTime":470.75,"body":"if that doctor makes a slightest"},{"speaker":"Martinique in Paris, he says","startTime":470.81,"endTime":475.64,"body":"mistake, because he's existing in a kind of a hierarchy of"},{"speaker":"Martinique in Paris, he says","startTime":475.82,"endTime":481.34,"body":"supersurveillance, those mistakes will be amplified. So there's"},{"speaker":"Martinique in Paris, he says","startTime":481.34,"endTime":485.51,"body":"lots of consequences that ensue if you're not the somatic norm,"},{"speaker":"Martinique in Paris, he says","startTime":485.78,"endTime":488.72,"body":"and there's a whole load of privileges that come from being the"},{"speaker":"Martinique in Paris, he says","startTime":488.72,"endTime":492.95,"body":"somatic norm. You don't have to carry this burden of doubt. You"},{"speaker":"Martinique in Paris, he says","startTime":492.95,"endTime":497.24,"body":"don't have to claim your authority -- it's granted to you. And"},{"speaker":"Martinique in Paris, he says","startTime":497.24,"endTime":500.51,"body":"you don't have to -- the mistakes don't stick with you in the"},{"speaker":"Martinique in Paris, he says","startTime":500.51,"endTime":504.56,"body":"same way that, you know, you don't carry the mistakes. There's a"},{"speaker":"Martinique in Paris, he says","startTime":504.56,"endTime":508.46,"body":"lot more forgiveness if you're the somatic norm, if there are"},{"speaker":"Martinique in Paris, he says","startTime":508.46,"endTime":513.92,"body":"errors made. So yes, it plays out in multiple ways in"},{"speaker":"Martinique in Paris, he says","startTime":514.13,"endTime":516.77,"body":"institutions and beyond institutions too."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":517.74,"endTime":520.44,"body":"Doreen Massey was a space invader not only in"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":520.44,"endTime":523.62,"body":"football stadiums, as we heard at the beginning of this episode,"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":523.62,"endTime":528.15,"body":"but also in a bunch of other places where, as she wrote, \"she"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":528.15,"endTime":531.84,"body":"felt that they were not [hers], or at least that they were"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":531.84,"endTime":536.01,"body":"designed to or had the effect of firmly letting [her] know [her]"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":536.01,"endTime":540.45,"body":"conventional subordination\". Those places included,"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":540.45,"endTime":544.62,"body":"unsurprisingly, political organisations. Here's how she recalled"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":544.62,"endTime":548.4,"body":"her experience of working on a Labour Party policy committee in"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":549.0,"endTime":553.29,"body":"\"First, politically"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":553.29,"endTime":558.09,"body":"speaking, I came from a different planet, and thus much thought"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":558.12,"endTime":563.31,"body":"and care had to go into developing a voice that might at least"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":563.31,"endTime":568.41,"body":"have some traction in the discussion. However, apart from the"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":568.41,"endTime":573.33,"body":"problem of political position, there was also a 'culture' to"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":573.33,"endTime":578.25,"body":"negotiate. This group was by no means the worst I've come"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":578.25,"endTime":583.62,"body":"across, but what it seemed to want most from its participants"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":583.95,"endTime":590.04,"body":"was gravitas, not to say portentousness. Apart from my gut"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":590.04,"endTime":595.14,"body":"resistance to this in any case, it is difficult to exude"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":595.17,"endTime":599.94,"body":"gravitas when you're 5 ft 1 and the committee room table comes"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":599.94,"endTime":604.95,"body":"up to your chin, when you're blond, and a GIRL, who is not"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":604.95,"endTime":609.63,"body":"wearing a suit. Throughout my intermittent attempts to engage"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":609.66,"endTime":614.4,"body":"with 'the establishment' of this country I have been left in no"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":614.4,"endTime":618.99,"body":"doubt that your ideas are evaluated through a filter,"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":619.44,"endTime":624.78,"body":"unacknowledged and often unintended, of expectation of a"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":624.78,"endTime":630.21,"body":"particular kind of embodiment. You can play the required female"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":630.21,"endTime":635.22,"body":"game and smile a lot, or you can adopt a deportment that says"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":635.25,"endTime":639.87,"body":"you take yourself very, very seriously. There is a"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":639.87,"endTime":645.45,"body":"self-importance that brings out in me an overwhelming desire to"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar reading Doreen Massey","startTime":645.45,"endTime":650.79,"body":"prick it. It is itself a form of class and gender war."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":652.23,"endTime":655.05,"body":"I'm very much drawn to the image of Doreen Massey"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":655.11,"endTime":660.6,"body":"pricking that self importance. I can almost see her do this with"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":660.6,"endTime":662.85,"body":"a mischievous smile on her face."},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":663.47,"endTime":665.72,"body":"Yeah, I think I think you're right in that"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":665.72,"endTime":670.94,"body":"pricking moment is when she refuses. I would say it's an act of"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":670.94,"endTime":675.5,"body":"refusal, performative refusal. She doesn't want to exude"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":675.5,"endTime":679.76,"body":"gravitas. She doesn't want to pretend to mimic the"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":679.76,"endTime":683.48,"body":"establishment, and neither will she go along with the accepted"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":683.48,"endTime":686.84,"body":"scripts of femininity. So you've got to be able to -- in order"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":686.84,"endTime":691.76,"body":"to prick it -- you've got to be able to get resilience from"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":691.76,"endTime":695.09,"body":"somewhere, you've got to be able to get it from your background,"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":695.09,"endTime":698.3,"body":"through your networks, through, you know, alternative"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":698.3,"endTime":702.02,"body":"philosophies, which Doreen Massey was doing all of that in that"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":702.32,"endTime":710.0,"body":"instance. In fact, my mom was even shorter than 5 ft 1, and she"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":710.0,"endTime":714.86,"body":"had a lot of gravitas. And she didn't acquire it from class, but"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":714.86,"endTime":718.55,"body":"she had, I would say she had presence. She had presence in the"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":718.55,"endTime":724.67,"body":"situation, she wouldn't let people knock her over, and she"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":724.67,"endTime":730.91,"body":"stated the case. But she was also known for being an incredibly"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":730.91,"endTime":734.48,"body":"loving person not only to her children and grandchildren, but in"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":734.48,"endTime":738.05,"body":"the neighbourhood. But she stood her ground. It's hard to do"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":738.05,"endTime":741.95,"body":"both, especially when people are very, very quick to find a"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":741.95,"endTime":746.09,"body":"reason to knock you off balance from being in places of"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":746.15,"endTime":746.99,"body":"authority."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":749.39,"endTime":751.49,"body":"We finished our tea and went for a walk through"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":751.49,"endTime":755.48,"body":"Coventry, the West Midlands city, where Nirmal grew up and where"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":755.48,"endTime":759.17,"body":"she returned several years ago to be close to her elderly mother"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":759.2,"endTime":763.52,"body":"who has since passed away. Even though Nirmal knows every corner"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":763.52,"endTime":767.54,"body":"of her hometown, she keeps discovering new things about it. Most"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":767.54,"endTime":771.23,"body":"recently, she has been taking exploratory walks with artists and"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":771.23,"endTime":775.49,"body":"botanists. She also roams the city with her little daughter. You"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":775.49,"endTime":778.64,"body":"can read about their walks in an essay we'll link to in the"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":778.64,"endTime":783.29,"body":"episode notes. Our walk took us all the way to Coventry's most"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":783.32,"endTime":784.4,"body":"iconic building."},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":790.54,"endTime":793.75,"body":"Well, Agata, I'm glad I could bring you here to"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":793.78,"endTime":800.38,"body":"Coventry Cathedral, and we're in the Chapel of Unity. It's a"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":800.5,"endTime":810.49,"body":"circular space with pieces that come off in a star shape, full"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":810.49,"endTime":816.43,"body":"of stained glass of different colours. So this is what's called"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":816.43,"endTime":821.89,"body":"the New Cathedral. The chapel is part of incredibly large new"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":821.89,"endTime":827.14,"body":"cathedral that we're in and it was created after German"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":827.14,"endTime":832.03,"body":"Luftwaffe in World War Two bombed the city. It was called the"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":832.03,"endTime":836.89,"body":"Moonlight Sonata exercise because they lit up the city with"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":836.89,"endTime":842.47,"body":"bombardment. It was a city where a lot of industry was made so"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":842.56,"endTime":847.06,"body":"industries that would have supported the war effort, munitions,"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":847.66,"endTime":852.52,"body":"and 70% of the city centre, the infrastructure, was ripped out."},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":854.71,"endTime":861.4,"body":"I should say, after this, it's argued that Coventry was used as"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":861.4,"endTime":867.04,"body":"an excuse by Winston Churchill to totally obliterate Dresden,"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":868.09,"endTime":874.84,"body":"which really went up in flames and the loss of life there was"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":875.23,"endTime":882.1,"body":"huge, way beyond what we lost here. So after the war, there was"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":882.1,"endTime":888.73,"body":"a discussion because the cathedral itself was bombed and the"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":888.73,"endTime":894.61,"body":"roof fell down. There was discussion of what do we do? Do we fix"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":894.61,"endTime":898.57,"body":"this cathedral? Do we make a new cathedral? A lot of discussion"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":898.57,"endTime":902.56,"body":"in terms of the architectural style and at that moment there was"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":902.98,"endTime":907.54,"body":"a move across Europe to create modernist structures for"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":907.54,"endTime":915.25,"body":"churches. Other people wanted a gothic, neogothic building, but"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":915.25,"endTime":922.12,"body":"the modernist structure went forward. And it was designed by"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":923.08,"endTime":926.98,"body":"Basil Spence, it's a very famous piece of architecture and you"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":926.98,"endTime":933.37,"body":"will see it has stained glass in different artistic formations."},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":933.91,"endTime":937.24,"body":"Yeah, so I grew up in this city and was very familiar with the"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":937.24,"endTime":942.58,"body":"ruins where I'd just go for contemplation, have a cup of tea, to"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":942.58,"endTime":947.41,"body":"have your sandwich. And this was quite a civic space, the"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":947.41,"endTime":951.28,"body":"cathedral as well. I don't know if you know, but Duke Ellington"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":951.28,"endTime":957.31,"body":"performed here in the 60s, as did Ravi Shankar. And some of"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":957.31,"endTime":961.12,"body":"those histories are now being revisited, especially with Duke"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":961.12,"endTime":961.87,"body":"Ellington."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":962.86,"endTime":966.64,"body":"It seems to me that Coventry Cathedral is quite"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":966.64,"endTime":971.68,"body":"well known nationwide, isn't it, in the UK? So is it a place"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":971.83,"endTime":976.78,"body":"about which school children will learn in history books? What is"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":976.78,"endTime":979.15,"body":"this place in British cultural memory?"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":979.87,"endTime":983.41,"body":"Yeah. When it was first opened, there was so many"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":983.41,"endTime":987.73,"body":"visitors, there are so many visitors because it seemed to be a"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":987.73,"endTime":991.84,"body":"site of remembrance, but also sight of reconciliation, peace and"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":991.84,"endTime":998.05,"body":"reconciliation. And I know coach loads of children used to come."},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":998.23,"endTime":1000.93,"body":"I don't know if that's still the case, actually, nationally, and"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1000.93,"endTime":1005.73,"body":"I certainly don't know if it's in the history books. Yeah, so"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1005.73,"endTime":1011.16,"body":"it's hope, power revisiting. And it's a strong narrative of how"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1011.16,"endTime":1018.42,"body":"we do remember World War and how we go forward, I guess. I"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1018.42,"endTime":1021.21,"body":"suppose I've been interested in it because my father was in"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1021.21,"endTime":1026.94,"body":"World War Two. In the Indian-British colonial army. He fought"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1026.94,"endTime":1033.81,"body":"all over the place, you know, Middle East, Burma, he was there,"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1034.26,"endTime":1039.03,"body":"came to Cyprus, he lost a brother on the battlefield in"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1039.03,"endTime":1044.22,"body":"Benghazi, and then, he's a very common story. He came to the UK"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1044.22,"endTime":1049.14,"body":"in the post-war period. Sawarn Singh was his name. He came in"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1049.17,"endTime":1057.57,"body":"1957. And at that time, you know, Cathedral's being built and"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1057.57,"endTime":1062.4,"body":"then it was consecrated with a very, very big opening. Benjamin"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1062.4,"endTime":1067.62,"body":"Britten wrote a new piece called The War Requiem, which featured"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1067.95,"endTime":1072.39,"body":"Japan in it, Germany in it, but, interestingly, the colonies"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1072.39,"endTime":1078.03,"body":"were not referenced, even though India provided the largest"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1078.45,"endTime":1082.2,"body":"'volunteer army' -- so-called 'volunteer army' -- in World War"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1082.2,"endTime":1087.06,"body":"Two. And a lot of those people from the colonies were filling"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1087.69,"endTime":1091.8,"body":"the city as well. They were coming to work in engineering"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1091.8,"endTime":1097.74,"body":"trades, in the motor trade. But there was a disjuncture between"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1097.74,"endTime":1102.33,"body":"the narrative that sits with the cathedral and the personal"},{"speaker":"stories","startTime":1102.33,"endTime":1106.95,"body":"personal, global, political stories of people who came"},{"speaker":"stories","startTime":1106.95,"endTime":1110.25,"body":"to live in this city. And certainly there was... I couldn't make"},{"speaker":"stories","startTime":1110.25,"endTime":1116.19,"body":"any sense of the narratives of war that came to Cathedral and"},{"speaker":"stories","startTime":1116.22,"endTime":1119.88,"body":"the documents my father had at home, that him and my mother had"},{"speaker":"stories","startTime":1119.88,"endTime":1125.97,"body":"carried over, references to being in the British Army, in the"},{"speaker":"stories","startTime":1125.97,"endTime":1129.9,"body":"colonial army in World War Two. So there was that disjuncture"},{"speaker":"stories","startTime":1129.9,"endTime":1130.5,"body":"there."},{"speaker":"stories","startTime":1130.68,"endTime":1136.95,"body":"And I think I had been a sociologist for over twenty years, when"},{"speaker":"stories","startTime":1136.95,"endTime":1141.18,"body":"I turned to this as a personal, but also, I would say, political"},{"speaker":"stories","startTime":1141.18,"endTime":1146.34,"body":"project. I'd taught and studied courses on ethnicity, race,"},{"speaker":"stories","startTime":1146.34,"endTime":1151.14,"body":"nationhood and, at that point, I was kind of tired of only"},{"speaker":"stories","startTime":1151.14,"endTime":1156.3,"body":"writing articles. I wanted a public intervention in this space"},{"speaker":"stories","startTime":1156.3,"endTime":1160.83,"body":"so that we recognise a global contribution, postcolonial"},{"speaker":"stories","startTime":1160.83,"endTime":1165.27,"body":"contribution, colonial contribution to the war, and to reroute"},{"speaker":"stories","startTime":1165.27,"endTime":1172.32,"body":"the narratives that come with the site. So yes, we worked as a"},{"speaker":"stories","startTime":1172.32,"endTime":1180.06,"body":"team on a project called Noise of the Past, which began with the"},{"speaker":"stories","startTime":1180.06,"endTime":1183.06,"body":"architecture of the Cathedral. I guess it's a response to the"},{"speaker":"stories","startTime":1183.06,"endTime":1187.17,"body":"Cathedral and the narratives of the Cathedral. And we instituted"},{"speaker":"stories","startTime":1187.17,"endTime":1190.56,"body":"a method called call and response, which comes out of oral"},{"speaker":"stories","startTime":1190.56,"endTime":1195.6,"body":"history traditions as well as for folklore traditions where one"},{"speaker":"stories","startTime":1195.6,"endTime":1198.78,"body":"person says something, the other one replies and there's a back"},{"speaker":"stories","startTime":1198.78,"endTime":1203.7,"body":"and forth. So we placed that into a methodology in our project"},{"speaker":"stories","startTime":1204.27,"endTime":1209.97,"body":"and it started with a poetic exchange between my father and his"},{"speaker":"stories","startTime":1209.97,"endTime":1215.01,"body":"grandson (my nephew) in Urdu where he's asked about his time in"},{"speaker":"stories","startTime":1215.01,"endTime":1220.32,"body":"war, the loss of his brother, the lack of recognition in the UK"},{"speaker":"stories","startTime":1220.65,"endTime":1225.36,"body":"in the, you know, annual calendar that comes with services for"},{"speaker":"stories","startTime":1225.36,"endTime":1226.38,"body":"remembrance."},{"speaker":"Unraveling","startTime":1227.65,"endTime":1236.95,"body":"[Fragment of Unraveling, a 2008 film written and"},{"speaker":"Unraveling","startTime":1236.95,"endTime":1244.6,"body":"directed by Kuldip Powar, music by Nitin Sawhney, produced by"},{"speaker":"Unraveling","startTime":1244.6,"endTime":1246.25,"body":"Nirmal Puwar and Sanjay Sharma.]"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1247.41,"endTime":1250.92,"body":"So this poetic exchange in Urdu was recorded and"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1250.92,"endTime":1256.65,"body":"given to Nitin Sawhney, the musician Nitin Sawhney, he created a"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1256.65,"endTime":1263.7,"body":"new score for it. Then Kuldip Powar, the poet, actually took the"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1263.7,"endTime":1270.99,"body":"score and created a film to the score, and that became"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1271.05,"endTime":1271.86,"body":"Unravelling."},{"speaker":"Unraveling","startTime":1275.88,"endTime":1281.7,"body":"[Fragment of Unraveling, a 2008 film written and"},{"speaker":"Unraveling","startTime":1283.71,"endTime":1292.5,"body":"directed by Kuldip Powar, music by Nitin Sawhney, produced by"},{"speaker":"Unraveling","startTime":1292.5,"endTime":1302.55,"body":"Nirmal Puwar and Sanjay Sharma.]"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1304.79,"endTime":1308.78,"body":"Then we had a second new piece created called"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1308.78,"endTime":1315.02,"body":"Postcolonial War Requiem where my colleague Francis Silkstone"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1315.02,"endTime":1318.5,"body":"from the Music Department at Goldsmiths decided he wanted to"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1318.5,"endTime":1323.81,"body":"work with Kuldip and my father's poetry -- The Poetic Exchange"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1323.81,"endTime":1329.21,"body":"-- and he visited the Cathedral with us many times. So he"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1329.21,"endTime":1334.91,"body":"responded to it with a new composition which was called"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1334.91,"endTime":1341.09,"body":"Postcolonial War Requiem. Both pieces were premiered in the"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1341.09,"endTime":1348.02,"body":"Cathedral here in November, in 2008. November is a season, I"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1348.02,"endTime":1355.73,"body":"guess, of remembrance. The response was amazing. The press"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1355.73,"endTime":1361.61,"body":"didn't cover it -- although I spoke on local radio -- but the"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1361.64,"endTime":1367.52,"body":"mixed audience responded amazingly. In fact, there was someone"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1367.52,"endTime":1371.72,"body":"who said -- stood up, connected to the Cathedral and said -- \"I"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1371.72,"endTime":1378.14,"body":"sung in the Benjamin Britten choir when the Cathedral was"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1378.14,"endTime":1384.2,"body":"inaugurated\". And he said, \"Never before have I seen such a"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1384.35,"endTime":1389.93,"body":"multicultural plurality of people in the place, and of languages"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1390.17,"endTime":1395.03,"body":"in the performance\". So that in itself was a major achievement."},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1395.03,"endTime":1399.95,"body":"I think the assemblage that we created was important. But I"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1399.95,"endTime":1403.19,"body":"guess the legacy also can very easily fall away."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1404.62,"endTime":1406.57,"body":"You mentioned briefly that sometimes in the"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1406.57,"endTime":1411.88,"body":"process of preparing and staging the intervention, you felt like"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1411.88,"endTime":1418.57,"body":"space invaders. But the project itself, it seems to me, is also"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1418.6,"endTime":1422.02,"body":"very much in the spirit of space invading. Maybe you could"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1422.02,"endTime":1423.97,"body":"reflect on this a little bit."},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1424.23,"endTime":1429.27,"body":"Yes, it's an active verb -- space invading. It's"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1429.3,"endTime":1433.92,"body":"space invading narratives of war, narratives of remembrance, the"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1433.92,"endTime":1438.6,"body":"erasure of the global presence in these world wars, and"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1438.84,"endTime":1444.57,"body":"including the local erasure. So it's space invading in the"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1444.63,"endTime":1452.37,"body":"architectural [space] and words that managed to keep people out"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1452.64,"endTime":1457.2,"body":"of the imagination of who participated in these wars. Where are"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1457.2,"endTime":1464.73,"body":"they now? That lack of remembrance of the global import in World"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1464.73,"endTime":1466.74,"body":"War One and Two, to be honest."},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1467.74,"endTime":1475.06,"body":"Space invading is a deliberate action that you take in order to"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1475.06,"endTime":1481.42,"body":"disrupt how that space has been demarcated, the narrative that"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1481.42,"endTime":1485.23,"body":"comes with it, it may be the borders that come with it, and it's"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1485.23,"endTime":1492.73,"body":"an active process. So we enacted a creative, artistic,"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1492.76,"endTime":1499.24,"body":"sociological process to alter -- to invade -- the narratives"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1499.24,"endTime":1503.29,"body":"that come with war and remembrance in the national and local"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1503.29,"endTime":1510.31,"body":"calendar of remembrance. That was a deliberate invasion. We did"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1510.31,"endTime":1515.74,"body":"it creatively, we did it poetically, we did it very carefully. I"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1515.74,"endTime":1520.36,"body":"wouldn't say it was a riot, you know, we worked with poetry,"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1520.36,"endTime":1527.71,"body":"music, film, and altered the vision -- so it goes beyond the"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1527.71,"endTime":1533.32,"body":"nation -- of how we remember the war dead. And so that we also"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1533.32,"endTime":1540.04,"body":"don't just support militarism, nationalism; we think of it in"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1540.04,"endTime":1544.72,"body":"the current global context as well of new wars, and how do we"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1544.72,"endTime":1550.87,"body":"remember the war dead, of which wars. Interesting, you can hear"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1550.87,"endTime":1555.49,"body":"that sound in the background from the choir that's being"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1555.49,"endTime":1560.68,"body":"practiced at the moment. So within that we brought in Urdu"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1560.68,"endTime":1565.48,"body":"voices, we brought in multicultural languages that are in the"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1565.48,"endTime":1568.12,"body":"city, but then hardly ever in the Cathedral."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1569.02,"endTime":1572.44,"body":"So do you see this intervention as part of this"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1572.47,"endTime":1579.34,"body":"larger movement to disrupt the imperialist history, to prick the"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1579.34,"endTime":1584.29,"body":"mainstream commemorative practices that are so strongly"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1584.32,"endTime":1586.87,"body":"connected to whiteness and the empire?"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1587.29,"endTime":1590.26,"body":"Totally, that's what it's placed at, that's how"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1590.26,"endTime":1595.96,"body":"its space invading. It's what's Stuart Hall calls the cultural"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1595.96,"endTime":1600.85,"body":"amnesia of empire. We also don't want to just be added in to"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1600.85,"endTime":1607.39,"body":"those stories of war and remembrance. We want to disrupt notions"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1607.39,"endTime":1614.83,"body":"of war and military, how is the nation nation made? So the prick"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1614.83,"endTime":1621.7,"body":"is quite deep, and it gets at the heart of how narratives of"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1621.73,"endTime":1627.13,"body":"nationhood are produced. Because there are soldiers remembered"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1627.13,"endTime":1631.42,"body":"from different parts of the world, but often it's buttressed"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1631.42,"endTime":1640.21,"body":"towards the establishment. So, yeah, nationalism in itself is"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1640.21,"endTime":1646.36,"body":"not questioned, militarism isn't questioned. And I guess our"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1646.36,"endTime":1650.86,"body":"prick is a bit similar to Doreen Massey, when she doesn't want"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1650.86,"endTime":1655.18,"body":"to, you know, come with a gravitas. So we don't want the"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1655.18,"endTime":1659.59,"body":"gravitas of militarism. We don't want that. We don't want the"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1659.59,"endTime":1663.61,"body":"gravitas of nationalism. We don't just want to be colonial"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1663.61,"endTime":1667.78,"body":"subjects inside that. We actually want to burst the bubble of"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1667.78,"endTime":1670.54,"body":"how the nation is produced in the first place."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1673.06,"endTime":1676.06,"body":"Coming from Poland, I'm familiar with churches as"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1676.06,"endTime":1680.41,"body":"spaces where narratives of the nation are produced. But instead"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1680.41,"endTime":1684.58,"body":"of invading that space, instead of pricking its portentousness,"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1685.18,"endTime":1691.24,"body":"I simply opted out. I left both the country and the church. And"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1691.24,"endTime":1694.75,"body":"I don't regret it. But I'm also deeply moved by Nirmal's"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1694.78,"endTime":1699.55,"body":"intervention. It's defiant, poetic, intimate."},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1702.51,"endTime":1705.48,"body":"I would say this is a very personal project. I"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1705.48,"endTime":1711.42,"body":"feel it in the fabric of my bones. When we -- at that time, I"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1711.42,"endTime":1714.54,"body":"don't think it'd be the case now, there's different personnel"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1714.54,"endTime":1718.89,"body":"involved in the Cathedral -- when we felt like space invaders"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1718.89,"endTime":1723.57,"body":"during the practice, during the programming, some of my team"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1723.57,"endTime":1727.95,"body":"actually wanted to pull out and not do the launch of Unraveling"},{"speaker":"Nirmal Puwar","startTime":1727.95,"endTime":1732.54,"body":"and Postcolonial War Requiem in the Cathedral. I was totally"},{"speaker":"committed that I must intervene in that space","startTime":1732.54,"endTime":1737.13,"body":"it's my space,"},{"speaker":"committed that I must intervene in that space","startTime":1737.16,"endTime":1743.04,"body":"it's not just a religious space, it's a civic space. And if we"},{"speaker":"committed that I must intervene in that space","startTime":1743.07,"endTime":1747.48,"body":"had found it impossible to do something inside, I was thinking"},{"speaker":"committed that I must intervene in that space","startTime":1747.48,"endTime":1752.67,"body":"of some kind of guerrilla projection outside. So it's also a"},{"speaker":"committed that I must intervene in that space","startTime":1752.67,"endTime":1757.5,"body":"project that's intergenerational, you know, it connects my"},{"speaker":"committed that I must intervene in that space","startTime":1757.5,"endTime":1761.97,"body":"parents' generation that lived under colonialism with my"},{"speaker":"committed that I must intervene in that space","startTime":1761.97,"endTime":1769.26,"body":"generation who were born in the UK, and it is a very important"},{"speaker":"committed that I must intervene in that space","startTime":1769.26,"endTime":1775.65,"body":"intergenerational exchange of death, war, colonialism,"},{"speaker":"committed that I must intervene in that space","startTime":1776.01,"endTime":1781.5,"body":"Britishness -- to have an expanded notion of Britishness. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"committed that I must intervene in that space","startTime":1781.53,"endTime":1785.19,"body":"it is the most personal project I've ever done. And even"},{"speaker":"committed that I must intervene in that space","startTime":1785.19,"endTime":1789.42,"body":"standing here now, I can feel it in my skin and my bones."},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1793.68,"endTime":1795.9,"body":"The intervention not only unravels the"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1795.9,"endTime":1799.56,"body":"exclusionary narratives of nationhood, but it also has a"},{"speaker":"Agata Lisiak","startTime":1799.56,"endTime":1804.48,"body":"powerful local resonance. In Noise of the Past, Nirmal Puwar and"},{"speaker":"her collaborators defiantly insisted on the obvious","startTime":1804.48,"endTime":1808.8,"body":"the"},{"speaker":"her collaborators defiantly insisted on the obvious","startTime":1808.8,"endTime":1813.75,"body":"Cathedral belongs to them too. Their artful acts of space"},{"speaker":"her collaborators defiantly insisted on the obvious","startTime":1813.75,"endTime":1817.32,"body":"invading are fueled by thoughtful reflection and careful"},{"speaker":"her collaborators defiantly insisted on the obvious","startTime":1817.35,"endTime":1821.85,"body":"intergenerational engagement. They offer endless inspiration for"},{"speaker":"her collaborators defiantly insisted on the obvious","startTime":1821.85,"endTime":1826.23,"body":"future interventions, and they're also a prescription of sorts."},{"speaker":"After all, space invading can be a healing practice","startTime":1826.74,"endTime":1831.51,"body":"it enables"},{"speaker":"After all, space invading can be a healing practice","startTime":1831.51,"endTime":1834.24,"body":"us to process painful experiences."},{"speaker":"After all, space invading can be a healing practice","startTime":1836.67,"endTime":1839.91,"body":"In this episode, we've looked at various examples of space"},{"speaker":"invading","startTime":1839.91,"endTime":1843.54,"body":"from Doreen Massey on football terraces through"},{"speaker":"invading","startTime":1843.54,"endTime":1847.62,"body":"marginalised bodies in Parliament to a postcolonial intervention"},{"speaker":"invading","startTime":1847.62,"endTime":1852.18,"body":"in Coventry Cathedral. We'd love to hear your stories too. Are"},{"speaker":"invading","startTime":1852.18,"endTime":1855.9,"body":"you a space invader? Please click on the form in the episode"},{"speaker":"invading","startTime":1855.9,"endTime":1859.74,"body":"notes to share your experiences with us. That's also where"},{"speaker":"invading","startTime":1859.74,"endTime":1863.28,"body":"you'll find links to Nirmal Puwar's essays on walking and other"},{"speaker":"invading","startTime":1863.28,"endTime":1867.63,"body":"interesting links. And for those of you who understand Spanish,"},{"speaker":"invading","startTime":1867.81,"endTime":1871.08,"body":"make sure to check out our episode on Doreen Massey in Venezuela"},{"speaker":"invading","startTime":1871.11,"endTime":1875.19,"body":"hosted by Erick Moreno Superlano. You'll find it, along with the"},{"speaker":"invading","startTime":1875.19,"endTime":1877.92,"body":"rest of our series, on your favourite podcast app."},{"speaker":"invading","startTime":1879.56,"endTime":1883.46,"body":"Special Delight is funded by the Volkswagen Foundation and"},{"speaker":"invading","startTime":1883.52,"endTime":1885.17,"body":"hosted by the Sociological Review Foundation. Visit the podcast"},{"speaker":"invading","startTime":1885.17,"endTime":1886.37,"body":"page at thesociologicalreview.org to find the transcript and a"},{"speaker":"invading","startTime":1886.37,"endTime":1898.04,"body":"list of reading recommendations. This episode was brought to you"},{"speaker":"invading","startTime":1898.04,"endTime":1905.0,"body":"by Susan Stone, Reece Cox, Adèle Martin, Bose Sarmiento and me,"},{"speaker":"invading","startTime":1905.09,"endTime":1909.86,"body":"Agata Lisiak. Special thanks to our guest Nirmal Puwar, and"},{"speaker":"invading","startTime":1909.86,"endTime":1911.27,"body":"thank you for listening"}]}