Episode 124 - Shop Talk: Another Bike Brand Fails, Motor Wars & Value Drivetrain Debate

Episode 124 marks the debut of Shop Talk — Mountain Cog's new recurring episode format built around four segments that cut through the marketing noise and get to what actually matters on the trail and in the industry. The guys kick things off with what everyone's talking about: Nolly Bikes has entered receivership, and Josh breaks down what that actually means, how it compares to what Rocky Mountain and YT went through, and whether Nolly's decision to skip carbon and e-bikes entirely may have sealed their fate. The Surron backlash, e-bike legislation, and the quiet aluminum comeback round out a packed opening segment.

From there, Shop Talk rolls into what grinds their gears — trail gatekeeping, gravity bros, and the online parts-buying culture that's making life harder for local shops. Then Josh gives his honest take on the Avinox motor after riding an Amflow in Bentonville, and the guys debate whether the DJI hype is actually earned. They wrap it up with Bang for the Buck — a real-world budget drivetrain breakdown and fierce debate covering Shimano Deore & Cues, SRAM NX & Eagle 70, and Microshift Advent MX, priced out component by component so you know exactly what you're getting for your money.

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Transcript

Shop Banter And Dad Jokes

Host - Josh Anderson 0:13

Dude, what are you pointing at?

Host - Dane Higgins 0:15

Oh. We're just in the shop and I was just pointing at my bike.

Host - Josh Anderson 0:19

Oh, that's your bike. Okay. Nice.

Host - Dane Higgins 0:21

I know. It turned out nice. What is it? It's the Pivot Shuttle AM.

Host - Josh Anderson 0:25

Pivot Pivot Shuttle AM.

Host - Dane Higgins 0:26

Yeah. I got it all spruced up because I'm selling it.

Host - Josh Anderson 0:28

Oh, so it's no longer going to be your bike.

Host - Dane Higgins 0:31

That's why it's pretty. Otherwise it wouldn't be pretty. Yeah, it wouldn't be pretty.

Host - Josh Anderson 0:34

Oh my Jesus Christ, I don't think I've ever seen one of your bikes that's clean. I know. That's true. So I never would have guessed that that was your bike.

Host - Dane Higgins 0:41

So I got a dad joke. Go for it, man. What kind of shoes do frogs wear?

Host - Josh Anderson 0:48

I just read this one. Did you? But were you looking too? Go ahead and just say it.

Host - Dane Higgins 0:53

Open-toed frogs. Open toed shoes. Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 0:57

And you can log that away.

Host - Dane Higgins 0:59

I I literally looked up, so I Googled worst dad jokes ever.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:03

That's what I Googled too. What is the best way to save your dad jokes? Like the one you just told. Oh. Shit. Did you read this one too? No, I didn't. In a database?

Host - Dane Higgins 1:16

Oh god. Man, this is so bad.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:19

Oh, the music's still playing. Oh, nice.

New Show Format And Segments

Host - Dane Higgins 1:21

I was gonna do that. Oh, there we go. So we got a new show tonight.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:26

We got a new show, new concept. Uh it's kind of a twist on the bike shop secret thing, but um, and maybe we'll get to some bike shop secrets in here, but uh we have come up probably not yet the way we go, it never works. It never works. But uh we have uh identified some segments uh that we're gonna try and experiment with that will be recurring segments, uh four of them in total.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:51

Should we introduce them first and then go through them or should we just do them as we Yeah, but just with the caveat that we may change them because we may get bored or sometimes.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:58

But like uh first and foremost is what are people talking about? I think the vision there is like uh you know, things that we're reading about, things that Dane's seeing in the shop, uh things that are all over YouTube, whatever, interesting, you know, kind of maybe news clips, like quick news clips or whatever. Uh the second one, what grinds my gears? Dane was really passionate about this because I think a lot of things grind your gears.

Host - Dane Higgins 2:19

Yeah, yeah. It's fun to talk about them too.

Host - Josh Anderson 2:21

So um uh one that I was passionate about, is the hype real? There's a lot of hype about new products, and Dane's definitely got a good perspective.

Host - Dane Higgins 2:31

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 2:31

Uh and then the f and the final one, me being like the cheap dude that I am, uh bang for the buck, like, you know, what are some good, like inexpensive options for your bike if you're building something or replacing something, uh, or it's just specking out a new bike, um, what are some some good uh some good deals?

Nolly Bikes Enters Receivership

Host - Dane Higgins 2:50

I I like that because uh a lot of times when you do like social or YouTube or whatever, you try and get online and and hear about stuff, all the reviewers are like riding the top of line bikes and carbon wheels and top line everything, and it gets a little daunting and that you see these prices and they're gonna be like, They're like $10,000 for the bike. Ah and so I kinda would like to kind of maybe pinpoint some stuff that's like wow, this is a really good product that doesn't cost an armor leg. Yeah. So okay. So first one is Yeah, what are people talking about? Yeah. And so you came up with this one.

Host - Josh Anderson 3:24

I came up with this one and and really um this is in line with something that has been a theme in our podcast and something that we're you know, for sure I'm interested in is the you know, the financials and the business aspect of like the bike shops. And I still have on the list like we did bike shop profits. Yeah. I'd like to do bike company profits and maybe different parts of the value chain or or the or the supply chain there. But uh so we're I'm always kind of watching and seeing what's going on in the bike industry, and yeah, we everyone knows there's a lot of stuff going on, but there was a new announcement this week. Um, Nolly Bikes, they're a Canadian company, um uh typically only aluminum, and they I think they have some titanium uh gravel bikes as well, but they're in receivership.

Host - Dane Higgins 4:08

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 4:09

And uh if you don't know what that means, um it means that they had a loan with a bank and the bank is calling in that loan, and they're basically handing that loan quote to a receiver, and then that third party will determine you know what's the best outcome for the business. Is it selling the assets? Is it restructuring the business? Is it winding the business down? So we don't know what's gonna happen with Nolly. Uh I know they have a pretty uh not so much here in Tucson, but uh I think you know across across Canada and across the United States, they've got a pretty um you know deep following of people that love their bikes, uh the their aluminum bikes. And uh yeah, so it's another company that's in you know financial disarray at the moment.

Host - Dane Higgins 4:49

Yeah, so I I looked into them and and then uh kind of compared them to Rocky, because that was recent. Yep. And then another local, you know, we're not doing too much as local, but this receivership and then the bank calling in the loan early reminded me of a company that was in Tucson and had the same thing happen. And I had a friend of mine and I were researching it, and sure enough, they're almost identical except for different reasons. So basically, um, you know, uh with Rocky, they went into the Canadian bankruptcy or restructure.

Host - Josh Anderson 5:23

Right.

Host - Dane Higgins 5:24

And part of their uh restructure was things like if it was gonna be sold, it needed to be a Canadian company, things like that. And Rocky was kind of proactive and kind of getting into this ahead of time before they were in too much trouble. And then they ended up selling to a different company in Canada. Uh I think it's Chaos Sports. And um, and Rocky's good now. There's solid and they're rebuilding. They're rebuilding, yeah. So um, you know, as a dealer, we were super worried about it. Yep. And then seeing things like they hired a rep, that's a good signal. And then two, we start to see more reviews of their product, and then they're talking about new product coming out. It's slow. It's not like this just slamming stuff out there, which I think sometimes ends up being like a almost like a like a if you if you see a too much from a company, they may be in a little too much trouble. Yeah. Uh like when Kona started selling two for one two for one, you know, if you see something like that, there's it's probably more of a signal that's like huh, that doesn't feel that. Yeah. So um, so yeah, so uh Rocky got ahead of it, re uh restructured, and and then it wasn't a uh investors were shifting so they got new ownership. Um whereas Nolly is uh the the literally they were doing the same thing. They were starting to restructure, downsize, reformat so that they could uh basically get leaner, and then the bank just decided called in the note. Yeah, decided nope, we're just gonna we want all our money, which is crazy. You know, it's the crazy to think that you're you're running, you know, doing fine. And and so then when I compared it to this other company that um was called Tri-Sports, and Tri-Sports was a really similar uh situation. It was a tri tri-company that sold bikes and stuff, they had online presence, and they had opened up a second store up in uh Phoenix, um, they were making money, they were doing great, and the bank did the same thing, and so you have this situation where these companies are just trugging along, no problem, and the bank just decides to call in the loan. It was kind of kind of crazy to me. And so both Nolly and TriSports went through the same thing. TriSports got into a situation where they were fighting legally, it was pretty drawn out and soaked up a ton of their money, and they ended up just folding. And then um Nolly looks like they're now in, like you said, in receivership, and so that is now they're controlled by a third party, like you were saying, and that's kind of determined. Yeah, and that's scary because they don't have control anymore.

Host - Josh Anderson 7:51

Nope. So in in my experience with receivership, you know, typically it's when whoever is uh is is holds the loan, and I don't know anything about the bank that held the loan. I know that the owner of Nolly put out some uh on their website put out some like, you know, I don't know, some some rough statements against the bank, but it's I It's a big bank.

Host - Dane Higgins 8:09

And and I'm looking at this research and I'm like, man, uh that would be really upsetting. Um so I I did dive into uh YT. Yep. Uh and so YT just went through a lot of this and it was similar uh to more more to Rocky's side where they the different country, different laws, right?

Host - Josh Anderson 8:26

Because YT is a German country.

Host - Dane Higgins 8:28

Yeah, yeah. But when you look at the structure of what's going on, is the company struggling? Yes. Uh they were struggling. Um then how do they fix that? And so restructuring, and so like YT was losing their their uh backing, basically, and it was private venture uh money, so that was moving out, and so YT had to figure something out, and then the old owner stepped back in and bought it again and is trying to resurrect it, and now he's got to do all those things, but he doesn't have a bank that's gonna pull the carpet out from over.

Host - Josh Anderson 8:59

And venture investment is different than a loan. Yep, exactly. But um, but typically what I find is that when when a company is gets called into receivership, uh typically it's when they've been late on their payments for a good amount of time. Yeah, and the bank has kind of like they've got like a risk algorithm, and they put them in the risk algorithm and it says, Hey, we don't think this company is gonna be able to turn it around. Yeah, and we need to stop the bleeding now before they you know squander more of their assets and we lose the money that effectively we loan the company.

Host - Dane Higgins 9:32

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 9:32

So it's like uh it's a risk thing. So I don't know the details about how that all happened, but another company yeah another company struggle.

Host - Dane Higgins 9:39

I always I always put gra uh gorilla and golly kind of in the same in the same category? In the same category, yeah. Kind of boutiquey, um just innovative like suspension companies that didn't didn't necessarily like ru uh Gravity finally moved to you know thermoplastic, carbon, and then Nolly really didn't do that too much.

Host - Josh Anderson 10:01

But no, they as a matter of fact, they made a conscious decision to stay away from carbon.

Host - Dane Higgins 10:04

Do you know who else did that? Do you want to we're talking about news and who's it canfield? No. Uh well Canfield, yes. Yeah. Um although Canfield did have some carbon bikes that they tried to work with. Um, but it's um commensal. So commensal has made a conscious decision. All all aluminum. All ally. Yeah. And so I wonder if that'll ever change. I always wonder if, like, you know, two years later that company's gonna regret saying something like that. Right. Uh, because the the industry changed. Now, um uh in the news also, Specialize just released an aluminum e-bike.

Host - Josh Anderson 10:36

Uh so but let's not leave Nolly because I got one more point on Nolly. Uh so and you'll you probably will love this. Okay. There's a lot of hypotheses out there about the fact that they shunned away from carbon, but they also made a conscious decision never to build an e-bike.

Host - Dane Higgins 10:50

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 10:50

And those two things they wonder with like how the sales are being split and how e-bike sales are exploding, if those were contributing factors to the situation that they're in.

E-Bikes And The Surron Backlash

Host - Dane Higgins 11:00

That's a a great perspective because you everybody who is just resistant to e-bikes, I I always say the same thing. Don't buy one, you know.

Host - Josh Anderson 11:08

And if you don't like them, don't buy one.

Host - Dane Higgins 11:10

It's serious, like that's all you do is just don't buy one. But uh there are a lot of people that took kind of like almost like a moral stance on them.

Host - Josh Anderson 11:17

Yeah.

Host - Dane Higgins 11:17

And I still hear that a little bit. I was listening to another podcast, and one of the presenters is an old school guy who I got a lot of respect for. He's been around a long time. And you could hear it in his voice that he's not a fan of e-bikes and he kind of wants to make them seem like motorcycles. Devil. Yeah, and uh, and so uh the talks about how motorcycle legisl or uh e-bike legislation is a another topic that's hot right now that everybody's talking about, and how the industry's trying to separate itself from like the Siurons. Yeah, you know. And then I was just talking to a moto dealer, and they were saying that the moto dealers don't like the Siurons. They want to be separated from them too.

Host - Josh Anderson 11:57

Interesting. I wouldn't I never I've never thought about it from their perspective.

Host - Dane Higgins 12:00

I guess their perspective from what I'm understanding is that they are getting the flack for these kids in these kind of like you know, little motorcycle gangs uh cruising around doing wheelies and traffic.

Host - Josh Anderson 12:11

And they're not gonna be able to get the bigger eating it's probably eating into their margins too, because they're they're instead of selling a motorcycle, that someone's buying a Sauron.

Host - Dane Higgins 12:19

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 12:19

So they're losing business.

Host - Dane Higgins 12:20

Aaron Powell, but also uh they are being uh lumped in just like e-bikers into that. And so they're they're both it's funny, both separate categories are getting lumped into this category that nobody likes, which is these little these the I I don't want to say Saurons are a bad thing or anything like that. You can use them properly and that's awesome. But what's happened is there's no regulation. Anyone can go buy one. The the you know, parents will end up buying these things for their kids and then their kids go out and ride them, and the parents kind of And they're like three grand. Well, yeah, yeah, and they're less than an e-bike, you know.

Host - Josh Anderson 12:52

They're less than a mountain bike. And and then an acoustic baseline mountain bike, right?

Host - Dane Higgins 12:55

And the and the parents are like, hey, you're just gonna go ride around the neighborhood because they're thinking it's a bicycle uh or a bicycle-like thing, and then the moto guys are like, you know, mad because they're taking these serons and tearing up mountain bikes, so then the moto guys get blamed. Yeah, it's it's a mess. So and now you got legislation in New Jersey where because of this like a kid that was killed. Uh yeah, but because of this misconception of like what is what, they're trying to make their license anything.

Host - Josh Anderson 13:22

Anybody go every every anybody's go with a motor.

Host - Dane Higgins 13:24

Yeah, and so like now if you've got a uh you know uh like a uh uh you know a comfort e-bike that you're riding on a river path or something, you're now gonna have to wear a helmet and license it and all this other stuff. And it's just uh it's getting really complicated.

Host - Josh Anderson 13:38

If you're interested in that story, Seth from Burn Peak does uh a couple different episodes and he gets really deep into that whole backstory.

Host - Dane Higgins 13:47

Do you think he's anti or pro e-bike?

Host - Josh Anderson 13:50

He rides an e-bike. Once in a while. I always like a lot of his episodes have been e-bike focused. Like he gets the old like e-bikes and he he does all the electronic work on them.

Host - Dane Higgins 14:02

Everybody's doing it. Everybody's doing it. It's true.

Host - Josh Anderson 14:04

Everybody's doing it. I've never ridden a Sauron, but it sure looks fun.

Host - Dane Higgins 14:08

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 14:09

I wouldn't ride it on my mountain bike trails, but it sure looks fun.

Host - Dane Higgins 14:12

So so one thing I want to bring up in the news before we switch gears is uh aluminum. So aluminum is becoming more and more hot. Aluminium. Aluminium. So I just heard one of our suppliers is gonna have an aluminum bike.

Host - Josh Anderson 14:24

Who's that?

Host - Dane Higgins 14:24

I can't tell you. And then um But can I guess?

Host - Josh Anderson 14:27

Sure. It couldn't be pivot. No.

Host - Dane Higgins 14:30

Okay, because I was gonna say after that. You know what? I've had three or four aluminum pivots. So they they exist. Uh, and one of my pride and joys. Um, prototypes. Yeah, yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 14:42

But they're not doing they're not even doing the aluminum prototypes anymore, right? Because they're doing the carbon and the bonds.

Host - Dane Higgins 14:47

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um no, uh uh, so like uh specialized just released their new short travel e-bike, which is uh blowing everybody's mind. Like, why is this I I don't know. Everybody's yeah, I can't I can't even tell you.

Host - Josh Anderson 15:01

Have you ridden one?

Host - Dane Higgins 15:02

Uh aluminum or specialized?

Host - Josh Anderson 15:04

No, a short travel e-bike.

Host - Dane Higgins 15:05

Yes, yeah, yeah. What'd you think? Eh, I if I had to predict about the way the industry's going, and you guys can this will be recorded in perpetuity, is that correct?

Host - Josh Anderson 15:16

I guess as long as I keep it published and pay the whatever dollars a month that it takes. Here's my theory.

Host - Dane Higgins 15:21

Keep it public. You guys can hold me to it, but there here's my theory is that I think the industry is gonna get to this place where in the shop anyway, we sell primarily lightweight trail and cross country non-e-bikes, and then almost everything else starts to to go into down or to e-bikes. Uh so like if you're coming in for a 150, 160, 160, 170 bike, it's gonna be hard for people to I'll make an even bolder uh prediction. Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 15:51

We're gonna get to a point where that's all there is is e-bikes. No. And they're gonna be so light that you can't tell the difference. And you can choose to turn the motor on or not turn the motor on. Every bike, that's my prediction. You're making gay.

Host - Dane Higgins 16:01

Every single bicycle will have a motor. You're making me gay. That's what I said. Okay. First of all, they'll almost all of them do now because they have little batteries on their motors on their derailers. In some way, they are like good bikes, yeah. But I think you know, I we did the 24. And uh on my analog. And it kicked you lightweight. It did. It did.

Host - Josh Anderson 16:21

You did well though, so you did good times.

Host - Dane Higgins 16:23

I don't know why you But what it did do is it it did remind me that I do love that regular bike feel. What I don't like is of just a heavy bike to go have fun, you know, and so anytime I want to go like speed around like you know, one of the local trails that's not all about jumping off stuff, I like my lightweight bikes. I really do when I don't need that heavy hitter. And but man, all the heavy hitting that I do anyway, and this is in my area, it tends to you have to pay to play. You have to climb up pretty hard stuff, and then bomb down. And the bike that I want for that has got 160, 170 millimeters of travel, it's uh heavy-duty tires, it's it's a bigger hit bike, coil springs.

Host - Josh Anderson 17:08

And you don't want to pedal that bike. And that bike is so hard. Yeah, up the mountain.

Host - Dane Higgins 17:12

Yeah, it's so hard to get up the mountain to have that little bit of fun, and the e-bike makes it 100% fun. I get to have fun going up and down. And so that's why I think that the bigger bikes are gonna continue to evolve and be e-bikes. And then the bikes that we're gonna sell a lot of that are not e-bikes are gonna be mostly lighter weight uh bikes that really focus on making sure that you're not taxed as a rider and that they're lighter and faster. And you can't do that with a hundred and seventy mil fork.

Host - Josh Anderson 17:41

So all right. Well, it'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

Host - Dane Higgins 17:43

All right, what's our next second? Next topic. Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 17:46

Uh hang on, I gotta end that one with the with the right zone here. Oh, what are people talking about? Oh, that's why it's what's clapping.

Host - Dane Higgins 17:56

All right.

Host - Josh Anderson 17:56

All right, and the next one. We get a lot.

Host - Dane Higgins 17:59

What grinds my gears. Okay, we got a lot of polishing to do. I'm just saying. It's pretty rough. I'm just gonna say it'll get better. This will be the first one.

Host - Josh Anderson 18:11

Yeah, we'll look back and we're gonna be like, what the hell are we doing?

Host - Dane Higgins 18:14

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 18:14

So what grinds my gears? All right, so we each have a topic, and and the interesting like nuance here is that I came up with my topic that grinds my gears, and it's a little bit related to Dane. Just a little bit. And Dane came up with one.

Host - Dane Higgins 18:32

A little bit related to you. And it's really on purpose.

Host - Josh Anderson 18:35

And we weren't trying to slam each other, but that's just how it cuts. You want to go first or want me to go first?

Host - Dane Higgins 18:39

I want you to go first.

Host - Josh Anderson 18:40

Alright, so here's what and and this is uh I'm biased. I am a trail rider. Trying to ride bigger stuff.

Host - Dane Higgins 18:51

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 18:52

But like down country and trail rider, like that's where I have the most fun.

Host - Dane Higgins 18:57

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 18:57

On down country and like just a trail, mount bike trails.

Host - Dane Higgins 19:01

Um people don't like down country, so they don't like that word. So are you just cross country? Well, so I don't like cross country because I'm not a racer. Okay, that's why I'm bringing this up, because I'm trying to figure out what is the difference between cross country and downcountry. What would what do you think is the difference?

Host - Josh Anderson 19:18

To me, it's like I got a lighter bike with like 130, 120, and I'm probably riding it on some I'm riding it on cross on cross country trails for sure, but also on some stuff that's a little chunkier and a little bit more challenging. Um a little bit underbiked.

Host - Dane Higgins 19:34

Okay.

Host - Josh Anderson 19:35

So it's fun.

Host - Dane Higgins 19:36

Okay.

Host - Josh Anderson 19:37

So that's that's downcountry to me.

Host - Dane Higgins 19:39

Okay.

Host - Josh Anderson 19:39

It's like I can ride my bike on the vortex or I can take it out to Star Pass and I can do it at both those. And I would put the Star Pass in the category of a little harder, like a little more technical. And the vortex is just ride as fast as you can around. Yeah, rough course.

Host - Dane Higgins 19:54

You'd be more apt to have a trail bike. Yeah. And and uh when you say vortex, we're talking about really smooth, yeah. Thank you for buff terrain that's like hard pack, um, a little bit of kitty litter is what we call it. A little bit of stuff on there, but for the most part, it's not really challenging your suspension.

Host - Josh Anderson 20:11

Yeah, not challenging your suspension.

Host - Dane Higgins 20:12

Whereas the trail bike uh rough terrain is just constant pounding, you're you're going through your travel.

Host - Josh Anderson 20:17

You're actually thinking about where you're going, you gotta be real careful with your lines and that kind of thing.

Host - Dane Higgins 20:21

Technical, technical climbs.

Host - Josh Anderson 20:23

Hard climbs, yeah. You know, uh downhills that when you get to the bottom, not big or scary or big jumps, or then you get to the bottom, you're like, oh shit, you pucker up a little bit, like, man, that could have gone bad.

Host - Dane Higgins 20:31

Yeah, because you're just hitting just multiple bumps, and it's not like you say, it's not a bike park or anything like that. Okay.

Host - Josh Anderson 20:37

So so that's the basis of like who I am. My wife is like, Lacey is like a more gravity-oriented.

Host - Dane Higgins 20:45

Do you are you sure this was a slam on me and not her?

Host - Josh Anderson 20:48

Oh, it totally is a slam on her. It was intended to be a slam on her. Which you feel fall into this category yourself. Okay, yeah. Um so I get super frustrated with what I'll call gravity bros. Okay. Not just gravity bros. That's racist. But the ones that have maybe, I guess. Um but the ones that have the attitude that if it's not double black, it's not mountain biking. If you're not hucking off some crazy shit that you could have done that if you crash, you're gonna die, and you're hanging off the side of a cliff on portal or something in in, you know, in Moab, that you're that what you do is not mountain biking. And that bugs the shit out of me because I've been riding bikes for like 30 years or what going on 30 years now. I'm never gonna ride portal. First of all, I am still a goddamn mountain biker.

Host - Dane Higgins 21:38

First of all, stop begging on portal, because it's awesome. And if you don't ride it, you're not a real mountain biker. But this is what ruins my gears. I know, I know, I know. Uh I you know, uh I I totally get that. I think that happens with everybody. I think if you're a road biker and you're not the fastest. To the top climb, you know, or the opposite. You know, we have a big mountain where we're at when you're riding a road bike, and it's a challenge to get up it. People come from all over the world to ride our mountain, and it's 26 miles or something up. Yeah. And uh it's famous and it's got a good shoulder, it's got a lot of great riding, and and uh you'll have the people that uh have bragging rights. So you're talking bragging rights, you know, you don't get bragging rights unless it's like double black, is what you're saying. Yeah. And so and it's I I see that as irony because if you talk to the spandex crowd, like the people that were winning the 24, that were out there winning cross-country races, they're gonna be the opposite, right? They're gonna be down on you if you're not so fast. If you don't have a certain FTP, if you're yeah, if your watts aren't a certain amount, if you're not on the leaderboard of if you're not KOM and straw.

Host - Josh Anderson 22:52

That would grind my gears too. I guess like I'm just your everyday mountain biker.

Host - Dane Higgins 22:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 22:56

Right? And so like I'm not extreme on either end. I just like to ride my fucking bike. So why does that make me less?

Host - Dane Higgins 23:03

It's it doesn't. It doesn't. And and you shouldn't feel that way. You know, first of all, that's usually an insecurity in in the person who's doing that to you. And I'm saying it. And yeah, and I'm doing it too. Like I'll I'll do it, and I I'm insecure sometimes. Uh and so uh all the time. And so when I think, you know, with this, you're you're actually uh a much better template for how you should be, is you figured out what you like, and that's yeah, that's pretty cool, you know.

Host - Josh Anderson 23:27

Uh yeah, and you hurt my feelings. That's okay because you book you booked a trip to Whistler.

Host - Dane Higgins 23:32

Yes.

Host - Josh Anderson 23:32

Didn't invite me.

Host - Dane Higgins 23:33

No, because you would have hated it. And then we would have been like, bro, you gotta ride this black diamond.

Host - Josh Anderson 23:37

Bro, it's bro, you'd be you'd be you'd be bro gravity to me right now. Gravity broke me.

Host - Dane Higgins 23:43

Gravity broad me. I'm like 14-year-olds teaching me it's bruh.

Host - Josh Anderson 23:46

And then I and then just to fuck with you, I was like, hey, I think I'm gonna go to Whistler with you.

Host - Dane Higgins 23:50

And you're like, I would take you.

Host - Josh Anderson 23:51

You did, you did. But you were kind of like, I don't know if you're gonna like this trip.

Host - Dane Higgins 23:57

So Jilly is the Jilly is pushing me hard to go to Whistler.

Host - Josh Anderson 24:00

So I should definitely go and buy with Jilly.

Host - Dane Higgins 24:02

And yeah. And she's and she's like, Bruh, bruh, why can't I go? Bruh. You know, and that's her thing now. Bruh, skibbity. But um, she's going to Angel Fire with us. Oh, is she? That's awesome. Yeah, we're gonna go to Angel Fire. So I'm excited. She hasn't been to Angel Fire as a rider. She's been there to hang out and watch Nebraska.

Host - Josh Anderson 24:19

He hasn't been as a rider?

Host - Dane Higgins 24:20

Not as a rider, yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 24:21

We can show her where you broke your collarbone.

Buying Parts Online That Do Not Fit

Host - Dane Higgins 24:23

Yes, exactly. On the wall that I'm gonna write my name on, by the way. Don't tell anyone, but it's I'm gonna say I'm spray painting my name on that thing. I don't know where yet, but I'm gonna do it. Okay. Um what's yours? Oh, all right. So mine is a little slam on me. A little slam on you, but unintentionally, totally. It's just been same with me. Something that we've been dealing with in the shop uh all the time, but lately it's just been getting a little bit heavier, and and it's basically uh we, you know, in in my world, my job is to help people find what they need to make them have have a good time on the trail, have them a good time on their bike, to make their bike work, you know, and and I've always had this role of like the person who helps you get what you need. That's my job, and and it's how I make a living and how I make money. And so uh that is what I've kind of been training myself and learning to do forever.

Host - Josh Anderson 25:12

Uh-huh.

Host - Dane Higgins 25:13

And there's this kind of culture right now of people who just don't think that's important and or needed or necessary, and they're just kind of really the industry is kind of almost feeding to it, and it's driving me a little nuts where they're just kind of encouraging people to sit on a couch and make a purchase decision. And it's been well just grinding my gears a little bit lately because you know, I'm finding that these people are making the bad decisions, whether it's like they they buy a bunch of parts online for their bike and they bring them into the shop. Put all these on my bike, put these on my bike, and none of them fit. None of them fit. And this I just about cussed it. I I just about cussed. This it happened last week, and it's so frustrating because that customer could have come here, probably paid the same, or at least the same now, because he's got to buy two things. Uh and but I saved six dollars. And and like he just didn't he didn't see the need for us, but now we're there for him. And it's like, oh man. And so I'm seeing this a lot with e-bikes. You know, e-bikes, I'm watching a lot of social and a lot of YouTube and a lot of reviews on all these bikes because I like to be up on everything, and I feel like I'm very up on what e-bikes are doing, what's important, how they work, uh, you know, and and a lot of- We're gonna test that in the next segment, by the way. That's that's I'm down. Uh a lot of people come in and they're kind of just they don't know enough. And by the time I get done with them, they come out like they they just read an encyclopedia. And what I'm doing is I'm absorbing all that info that's out there, and then I'm filtering it and making sure that it's good. Because uh, you know, uh, and and that takes a lot of time, energy, and and know-how to understand when somebody's giving you a review on a product on how they're slanting it. Are they are they doing that because it's a sponsored uh review? Or are they being paid? Did they get given a bike? Are they uh curating a relationship with that company? Yep. You know, like like what are their motivations? Are they giving you good info or are they just feeding you marketing spiel? And I see it all the time. And so, like, uh, you know, are are these customers uh going out and uh getting on the the brand's website and reading everything about the brand, getting super jazzed and then buying it, not realizing that the brand is never gonna tell them anything bad. It's never gonna give them a bad perspective, it's only gonna give them the best. And so, like, how do you filter all that? And then your local bike shop, you know, is the one that's trying to do that for you. And so this buying off the couch. My big uh grind right now is uh I just got done with a NORCO um test ride, and we rode uh this new TQ. And I have now ridden two different bikes with the same motor, and they were very different experiences.

Host - Josh Anderson 28:08

One you got along with, one you didn't.

Host - Dane Higgins 28:09

Yeah, and it is crazy how different the ride experience was.

Host - Josh Anderson 28:14

But they both had the same motor. Yeah. When you say ride experience, you're talking about how the motor felt.

Host - Dane Higgins 28:18

Yeah, yeah. We're not just talking about like I can't really tell you that the bike really had much to do with that experience. It was really how the motor was tuned by the company and how it reacted under uh under the way that we pedaled. There's little inputs that the suspension could maybe give the motor a little bit of a different viewpoint.

Host - Josh Anderson 28:37

Yeah.

Host - Dane Higgins 28:37

You know, if it's got anti-rise with being swat.

Host - Josh Anderson 28:40

Minor, not major.

Host - Dane Higgins 28:41

Yeah, but uh it was just kind of blew me away how these two bikes were so different. One was clearly a very viable product, and then the other one is not one I bring in. And and it wasn't I mean, the fit and finish was the same, it's the same brand. They had the same size battery, the same size displays.

Host - Josh Anderson 28:57

It's the same brand?

Host - Dane Higgins 28:58

Same same size. Same brand motor. Same brand motor, yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 29:01

But and different different bike companies.

Host - Dane Higgins 29:03

Yeah, yeah. And the and the the ride was so different. And uh and I can't tell you that it was actually the the suspension or the bike or the weight or anything like that. It was really a a motor difference too.

Host - Josh Anderson 29:16

And so that's the same exact motor. So you can't just buy a bike based on the motor because in this experience, yeah, yeah.

Host - Dane Higgins 29:23

You can you you can use all of this info that's out there and you can buy using just what's you know uh you know, what's on paper, but you're gonna lose some of the nuances, and so you're gonna lose some of the things, and so you have to really, really, really be careful of what you're hanging your hat on and how much percentage you put the worth in. So for instance, um, we have a bike in the store that I believe me, I cannot figure out why we don't sell every single one. And the Norco rep was telling me they feel like it's 10 millimeters of difference. That's the 10 millimeters. They go, it's 10 millimeters, that's it. So we have a a Norco fluid, it's an e-bike, and it's got a Bosch SX motor. So uh lower power, uh, but good high output, 600 watt output, and it's got a lightweight uh carbon mainframe, lightweight battery. The the least expensive one was 4,500 bucks, which is cheap. Oh wow, with a carbon frame. Okay, and this is why I was kind of bringing up the specialized earlier because they're all excited because they're six. Six thousand dollar aluminum frame. And I'm like, these things are you know like lighter, and they're and and this forty five hundred dollar bikes were coming in at like forty-two, forty-three pounds. So it's pretty light. It's super light, and they're using a horse link with a mullet design, which everybody in the brother is starting to use. Yep. So and I'm like, why is this thing not selling? Like, it should be the best selling bike in the store because it's hitting the price point. It's got rock shock suspension front and rear, it's got uh Dior 12 speed drivetrain. It's got I mean, it's got all the stuff. It's a good bike. Yeah, and uh it for some reason it's not not on paper selling. And uh my Norco rep was um was I I think sorry this this was Alex and I love Alex. And Alex was like, I think it's we introduced this SX motor way ahead of everybody else, and nobody knew about it, and we learned we shouldn't necessarily be the first one to market with it. And that's and I was like, wow, that's scary that you made this good a product this early at this price point and it got ignored because it wasn't expensive. Like if you added two grand to that, it would have sold more, you know.

Host - Josh Anderson 31:34

Like I kind of So those bikes are still available.

Host - Dane Higgins 31:37

They're uh running out of them, and and that's the other nice thing that's about uh so they're starting to people are starting to figure out that they're good bikes. Yeah, they're starting to, but there's a new one coming, and there's rumor, and I don't even know if I'm supposed to talk about this, but it's okay because it's a rumor, right? It's not fact.

Host - Josh Anderson 31:51

Yeah.

Host - Dane Higgins 31:52

Uh that that bike is getting DVO. And I'm very excited. Oh, look at you. All excited about your DVO. But the other thing that they talked about this, this is a one DVO is a suspension company, by the way.

Host - Josh Anderson 32:06

Okay.

Host - Dane Higgins 32:06

So again, they had this bike over a year ago.

Host - Josh Anderson 32:10

Shorter travel.

Host - Dane Higgins 32:10

Well, that's just the the new rally bikes, you know, and the the uh specialized Raleigh bikes and and stuff like this are like, you know what's hot right now? 140 one fifty or one fifty one forty, you know, like that that it's they had this bike like over a year ago. And it's just cracks me up. So so okay, so that was some of my grinding gears, you know.

Host - Josh Anderson 32:32

You're all right, should I play the music again?

Host - Dane Higgins 32:34

Yeah, play the yeah. That's supposed to end our segment for grinding our gears. So that was our grinding gears segment. I hope you guys liked it. Uh it was basically me ranting for 15 minutes.

Host - Josh Anderson 32:44

Yeah, yeah. Not 15, like five. Oh, well, that's good.

Host - Dane Higgins 32:46

It wasn't bad.

Host - Josh Anderson 32:47

So all right, so next one, is the hype real?

Host - Dane Higgins 32:50

Can you dig it? I can dig it. Can you dig it? Yep. Um I may have to crack open another soda.

Host - Josh Anderson 32:56

You may have to crack open. That's good. Um I think I'm on my second uh Gatorade uh zero here. I'm gonna not drinking alcohol today because I'm just getting over this demon virus that you passed me last time you're gonna be.

Host - Dane Higgins 33:07

Yeah, we're both we both we both have our radio voices on because we're all clogged up. Yeah, it's crazy. Springtime.

Host - Josh Anderson 33:14

But uh is the hype real? Okay, so um I went, you know, I went out to Bentonville because I'm we're gonna buy property somewhere and we've got three places we're looking at Bettonville, Chattanooga, and Boise. If you have an opinion on where I should buy, let me know. Uh but we went to Bettonville and I kinda decided that Bettonville wasn't for us, like Disneyland for mountain bikes. And I don't know if I'd want to live in Disneyland. You know, it's like cool to visit.

Host - Dane Higgins 33:37

Would you want to be close to it? Because like I'm I'm bummed that it's so far away, and I can't just go experience it because I want to, but it's really far away. Like I think it's a fly or it's a fly, yeah. Or it's a long, long multiple day trip. Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 33:52

I don't know. I don't know. I mean, like, I won't say no go to go back, but it's not gonna be like the place I want to go.

Host - Dane Higgins 33:59

Like I'm hitting Whistler for the second year in a row.

Host - Josh Anderson 34:02

Yeah, I don't think it's whistler.

Host - Dane Higgins 34:03

No, okay.

Host - Josh Anderson 34:04

I wouldn't put it in that category.

Host - Dane Higgins 34:05

Okay.

Host - Josh Anderson 34:06

But it's cool for sure. Um, anyways, while I was there, I rented Dean's all into the Amflow bikes, and every time I come in, I see I thought another one today. When I come in, you're selling a lot of Amflow bikes.

Host - Dane Higgins 34:15

Going out the door like crazy.

Host - Josh Anderson 34:16

Like crazy. And um uh so I rented the Amflow, the higher end one that weekend when we were in Bentonville just to try it out. And it and I think those e-bikes are good bikes for Bentonville because you can, you know, do a lot of laps.

Host - Dane Higgins 34:27

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 34:27

Uh and we were there for a short amount of time on ride as many trails as possible. But uh I love the motor, uh that Avinox motor. I did not get along with the bike.

Host - Dane Higgins 34:36

Um which blows me away. Because I ride a specialized. Because yeah, I I mean if anyone were to ride this bike, this this um AMFLO, and then a specialized, I feel like they're almost identical. Like I know they're different, and somebody's gonna be like, they're slightly different, and 65 degree versus whatever. But uh they are so close.

Host - Josh Anderson 34:58

So Yeah, I think I think the reason why is I like that that uh specialized suspension design for my downcountry bike, but I don't like it for the bigger travel bikes.

Host - Dane Higgins 35:08

Yes. Oh, you know what? I would totally agree with you on that. Like the and especially since you wrote a stock one, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 35:14

Oh, well it was yeah, I mean it was stock. It was one of the it was the high there's two levels.

Host - Dane Higgins 35:18

Only two, and it was the higher levels. Yeah, so it had the Kashima but it's still air shocks and one 160, 150.

Host - Josh Anderson 35:26

Yeah, I mean maybe if you got a hold of it and we fucked around with the suspension and we got that cleaned up, it would be better. But stock I didn't get around long and you know, I did it myself. Yeah, it was a rental bike, who knows what shape it was in. I'm sure those things get a lot of miles.

Host - Dane Higgins 35:40

You're used to a gorilla gravity.

Host - Josh Anderson 35:42

I'm used to a grip of gorilla gravity.

Host - Dane Higgins 35:44

Super smooth. You just did long travel kit on it. And and uh did you put the the it's got the zeb on it?

Host - Josh Anderson 35:50

I haven't put the zeb on yet.

Host - Dane Higgins 35:51

Okay, yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 35:52

Just because I've been sick. Yeah. But it's go it's coming on soon. It's got a 38 on it right now. I'm not getting along with that 38, that thing's gone.

Host - Dane Higgins 35:58

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 35:58

And uh I'm putting the zeb on it. And I can tell you. You've got them both in the back?

Host - Dane Higgins 36:07

Uh not the new Zeb, so but the 38 sitting there. I'm not supposed to talk about it till tomorrow, but I know this won't air.

Host - Josh Anderson 36:12

This won't air.

Host - Dane Higgins 36:12

Uh until I think to me before I leave, yeah. It's it's pretty pretty dope. So I I don't know if I'm gonna ride it. We'll see. Um, but there's enough changes where it may be worth it.

Host - Josh Anderson 36:23

Well, I'm stoked on the on the Zeb that I'm getting. You guys know I don't need to talk about that. You guys know how much I love that.

Host - Dane Higgins 36:27

So Avinox.

Host - Josh Anderson 36:28

Avinox, okay. So I loved the motor, it was fantastic, it was more power than I would ever need, and I didn't ever put it in turbo, I didn't need to. Um But I read that there's a new motor by a company I I didn't know about, and I've read a little bit about it now, but but the Molly company um released a new motor called the M40, and it sounds like it's a a pretty significant significantly close to what Avinox puts out from a torque perspective, a peak power perspective, and then a weight like weight to power ratio perspective. So it's got 105 new meters of torque, 850 wax watts of peak power, 340 uh um watts per kilo of uh power to weight. Um how does that match up against the Avinox and they're they're almost identical.

Host - Dane Higgins 37:16

Uh Avinox goes up to a thousand. Okay. Um and then they have a boost which goes from 105 to 120.

Host - Josh Anderson 37:24

Okay.

Host - Dane Higgins 37:25

That's just for a short period. The big thing that uh I noticed on our spec sheet is that uh the weights were the same, and that's one of the big things. Um so this segment is about i is the hype worth it? Is the hype real? Yeah, is the hype real? So that Avinox is real. Like they they are killing it in the last year. They have redefined uh what a motor is what a motor system should be, how it should feel, how much it should weigh, how much power it should have. Everybody has adjusted because of that company. And I was very reluctant at first, um, mainly because the company that owns them is a very, very big company, but they're based in China, and so we're a little leery here because I don't know, paranoia. DJI. Yeah. EJI. DJI. And um, and so uh so far I would say that as a a new bike company, they're learning. There's a few things that they're still figuring out. Yep. Um, but the product is pretty sound and pretty hot. And and then when you sit back and think about it, you know, who's gonna make the most powerful lightest motor on the market?

Host - Josh Anderson 38:29

Someone that makes drones.

Host - Dane Higgins 38:30

Yeah, who's gonna make the most powerful lightest battery on the market?

Host - Josh Anderson 38:33

Someone that makes drones.

Host - Dane Higgins 38:34

And who needs to make sure their software that runs all this is really good?

Host - Josh Anderson 38:37

Someone that makes drones. Yeah, and it just it like as soon as you think about it backwards, you know, anytime it's a way easier business problem for or uh tech technology problem for them to put it on a bike than it is to put it on a in the air.

Host - Dane Higgins 38:48

And I love my bosch bikes, and I just rode the new Bosch and um and I and it's amazing. So um so they've stepped it up. But if you were to say, hey, who's gonna make the lightest, most powerful motor, is it gonna be the guy that that makes them uh like a hand drill or or a little motor or some electric component in your car? You see what I mean? Like the logic is like wow, they had an edge from the beginning because because their whole their whole idea of what they need is about weight was uh was about that. And so it does make sense. Um so is the hype reel, yeah. Those DJI motors are is the hype reel on the MOLE. So so we talked about this before we got recording, and MOLE has been around a long time. One of the things that grinds my gears, to go back to grinding gears, is that there is a company that has been using MOLLE software and a lot of MOLLE technology and has had 109 newton meters and one of the most powerful bikes, most natural feeling bikes for uh the Newton meters is a little off depending on the years, but like since 2013. Like, think about that. There is there's a company Can we say what that company is? Yeah, it's Rocky Mountain.

Host - Josh Anderson 39:57

And so my bike has got a MOLE motor.

Host - Dane Higgins 39:59

It's so uh I'm not a hundred percent who actually makes the motor because Rocky Mountain power plays are uh a very unique system because they don't have a gearbox. Um so they do have a motor and then they have a step-down gear that's chain driven. It's this tiny little chain that's on there. It's that on the left side? Yeah, it's on the left side.

Host - Josh Anderson 40:18

So I have another chain on my left side. Do I have to maintain that?

Host - Dane Higgins 40:20

Yes, you do.

Host - Josh Anderson 40:21

Oh shit.

Host - Dane Higgins 40:23

It it's it's covered and it's yeah, it's covered in the bike shop secret.

Host - Josh Anderson 40:28

If you have a Rocky Mountain power plate, there's another chain on your side.

Host - Dane Higgins 40:33

Um and there's yeah, there's Thanks for telling me that. Sorry, buddy. But that bike has been around forever and it's had over 100 newton meters, it's supernatural feeling. It uh it's it's just been a great bike forever, and nobody talks about it because the hype is all marketing. Uh and Rocky has been going through restructure, and now that there's this big premise on 100 newton meters become the the catchword, Rocky's been kind of silent because they're restructuring. They don't have a bucket.

Host - Josh Anderson 41:03

They're not like, hey, we've had one for ten years.

Host - Dane Higgins 41:05

Well, and and they don't have a bucket full of money to pay everybody to talk about their bikes. And and really you know, again, if I if I reference to grinding my gears, one of the problems with people kind of just absorbing info and not getting it from good filtered services uh is they they just get whoever spent the most. So honestly. So you're hearing our uh AC unit? No, that's our uh compressor.

Host - Josh Anderson 41:30

Oh, your compressor's turned on.

Host - Dane Higgins 41:31

Yes, yeah. Just randomly? Yeah, there's probably a leak somewhere. It's it's a compressor problem. Like it's I wish I could see.

Host - Josh Anderson 41:37

I'm like, there's something messing up our sound. You guys know I'm particular about sounds. I'm like, what is that? And I was like, oh it's your compressor.

Host - Dane Higgins 41:43

There's a uh a line that goes from way in the back to the front, and there's probably a small leak somewhere.

Host - Josh Anderson 41:49

Okay.

Host - Dane Higgins 41:49

And so it'll go on a couple times a night. So it's not too bad, but we do maintain it a lot. So okay, so the male, um, Rocky Mountain.

Host - Josh Anderson 42:00

And the the old specialized Levos.

Host - Dane Higgins 42:02

Yes, there was and now we gotta be careful because specialized has had a lot of companies making a lot of different motors, and they've had a lot of different versions that have gone through a lot of issues. And uh I have no idea which one they made or what series, or if that was the one that had problems, or if that was the brose that had problems, or who whoever it is. So and then um the the big thing with the mole is the mid-drive now. So this this new motor is is mid drive because I have a mole on my Argon gravel bike. They've made a lot of hub drive. Hub drive, yeah. Yeah, X35, I think, is what mine is. Okay. And that was the number one. You any any high-end carbon road bike in the when e-bikes first hit uh road bikes had that motor system in it. So Clinago and Pinarello and um Argon 18, of course, Bianchi, all of them use that motor for the longest time until they evolved into something else, or they may still use it.

Host - Josh Anderson 42:57

Okay. So you think you think it's real. You think the hype's real on the MOLE?

Host - Dane Higgins 43:01

I I do. I think they're a good contender, but uh the problem is is no longer so when DJI came out with 100 to 120 at 2.5 kilograms with a thousand watts, they were the only ones. They just blew everybody away. A year later, Bosch has that, specialized has that, MOLE has that, the new um Aventon.

Host - Josh Anderson 43:24

So it's like a new yeah, the new Adventon mode.

Host - Dane Higgins 43:26

Yeah, it's the new standard.

Host - Josh Anderson 43:27

So that's so they that there's a new standard.

Host - Dane Higgins 43:29

Yeah, so but that's how quick that changed. I I do so I I'm old and young at the same time. A very young, old person, or an old young person, I'm not sure. Um, but uh I remember when V brakes came out, and in mountain bikes we had these cantilever brakes, and they were a nightmare. Uh they were didn't stop your bike. I mean, you had to buy certain like soft compound to get them to stop. You had to tow them in so they didn't squeal like crazy, you had to get this cable angle correct so that you got leverage, all this stuff. V brakes popped out and I think it was Avid or Shimano. I can't remember who came out with them first, probably Avid, but um it was like a year and they're and then and the canties were gone. Like that's how everybody it's blew it's blew up the industry. Yeah, and that's how fast this revolution in e-bike motors is. Now the the big thing that I think is going to happen in the next year is we're gonna see two things. Here's my prediction lighter batteries. We're gonna see full powers get lighter. Yep. Because I think everybody was disappointed when some of these $15,000 bikes were fifty three pounds.

Host - Josh Anderson 44:35

Yep.

Torque Wars And The Planted Myth

Host - Dane Higgins 44:35

And I don't think no matter how many times that commenter on the review said that it feels planted. I I just want to smack those guys in the face. I really do because this this whole planted idea of planted.

Host - Josh Anderson 44:49

Do you know what I really like about my Rocky Mountain power? Is it planted? I'm not kidding. It feels so planted.

Host - Dane Higgins 44:55

Okay. Alright let me tell you what planted is planted is heavy.

Host - Josh Anderson 45:01

That's all it is it's just it's a heavy bike.Feels amazing but I can corner that thing better than any bike I have it's just it's planted bro it drives me nuts.

Host - Dane Higgins 45:11

So planted you know what I don't I I don't I never have a problem cornering but what I don't like is when I go off a drop and the front end drops because the bike's so freaking heavy. Yeah you just have to use your biceps and yeah whatever and uh when I when I go off a drop I want to be able to pick the bike up and a 55 53 pound bike is just it's just too taxing when you're going downhill because you're already angled down and then you're trying to lift the bike uh to so that you don't nose pick into the ground and bro we got to get you back in the gym. I know I do I do want to go to the gym. But uh the you know the other I got your point the the other thing is make the bike at 45 pounds and you get rid of a lot of that. Yeah. And if I'm paying $15,000 for a bike it better be 45 pounds or lighter and full power. That's that's where it's going. The second thing is I don't want to pay $15,000.

Host - Josh Anderson 46:02

No I don't want to pay $5,000.

Host - Dane Higgins 46:04

And so I think that is going to be I think you're gonna start you know this this Norco fluid that I keep talking about I keep looking at that bike going they've already made a $4500 carbon fiber lightweight bike. It's got the smaller motor so it's not as powerful and it's a $150 $140 bike. But honestly you put a DJI motor in that thing and you would have full power at almost the same weight and then you just amp up the the travel just a little bit and you're you you've got a you've got a am flow. Sweet. Yeah and so I really feel like that um price point is more attainable and now that there's going to be aluminum versions of some of these bikes you're gonna see a drop in the price even more so I see a $4,000 full power excuse me full power 150 bikes coming out and with good motors like motors that we all know.

Host - Josh Anderson 46:57

So do you ever think we'll get to the point where we can the same way we show swap every other part on the bike right now I can't swap motors ever get to that point where there's an inn international standard for there's a there's another secret coming out.

Host - Dane Higgins 47:12

Uh oh there's a new motor by a very popular company coming out and I don't know the answer to this but um it is basically a lighter or I'm sorry a a less expensive version with a little bit less power um of what their motor is now and it's gonna allow them to lower the price point. Okay. So this is the Avadox motor or no I can't tell you who it is because that I know somebody will kill me if I if I say but um plus I don't want to steal people's thunders but it may be a German company. That's all I can say. So uh anyway. So good job Dane this company You're like the worst secret keeper on the planet. Hey there's a lot of German motor companies so um uh so this company is coming out with this motor that is kind of replacing their old motor and I had asked the question is it gonna fit is it gonna be the same mounting points as their higher end one and I don't know if the source that I was getting this from actually knew. And so one of the things that I would like to see is that I would like to see the standard I would like to see even if it's a standard if if one of these motors companies has three versions let's say they have a lightweight small lightweight compact version. Yeah and then and and it's meant to keep the bike light it's meant to be uh real natural feeling and you've got a battery that's small that's light and you put that in the system um and and let's say Pivot uses that and they build a bike around it and that's great. But then it it would be really nice if you could pull that same company's motor out and put in their next level up motor into the same mounting points and if if Pivot or whoever's making it had made the the bike accept that same size so that you can grow with your bike you know instead of having to buy a new bike you know and that and I went through this as an e-biker I the first thing I wanted was a light e-bike. I didn't need a lot of power. I just wanted to get to the top of the hill without just dying and then enjoy the descents and I wanted to ride with groups and and and not have my knees not screaming at me. And that's really was my first goal and I really enjoyed that and then my first one was uh that Pivot SL and it was an amazing bike and I loved it. I still love it. And I will tell you that I started riding with full power guys and you can't keep up with them. I couldn't and and and they're just chatting away climbing these huge hills and I'm on full power they're in eco and I'm trying to keep up and I'm burning a thousand calories trying to just just keep up with them so that I can descend with them. And so I'm like alright I I think I'm gonna need a full power but I I had a full power by the way at the same time I had a a Rocky and it was around 50 pounds carbon and I was I did not like lifting it up off of drops and jumps. And so that was when I got my pivot uh shuttle AM and that had full power 47 pounds doable and I could keep up with all the big boys. Can you imagine how rad that shuttle SL would be with the Avinox motor I have told Pivot that if if if if Brian if you're listening I I'm I I know that you abandoned I know you're not going to do it but man can you just make a prototype with one in it for me like that that's I just wait can you make two? Yeah yeah I I ah man well and and and the key is the weight for me for me on on this hype um one of the the things that I think makes it not hype is the ones that are doing this thousand watts hundred newton meters and the bike's still coming out 50 55 pounds. Yep I think those are the bikes that let the most people down. And I think that's why it's so planted bro. Fuck god damn it planted that might be the first time you said the F word on this podcast yeah I you know I I you know it the things that bug me about that word is that cornering does not mean that you need a heavy bike. You can corner well without a heavy bike and we were talking about this we were you can you can no I can't yeah no but you can you can learn to maybe yeah yeah actually I'm getting better. Yeah I mean I have cornered on a 22 pound bike just as fast as I do on a 40 pound bike. It's it's not the weight that is making the bike corner well. The only reason that a heavy bike feels more planted especially in corners is you just have less braking attraction because there's just more mass holding you to the ground and that's that's it.

Host - Josh Anderson 51:36

I know that's what planted is mass holding you to the ground. Yeah but that's it's an accurate word that describes the situation. It's stupid. Alright let's go to our next one. Okay. That was is the hype real? Okay.

Host - Dane Higgins 51:49

Can you dig it?

Host - Josh Anderson 51:50

And I know now not to bring up e-bike topics with you.

Host - Dane Higgins 51:54

Yeah I'll talk forever. I know I don't think we've ever done a full episode.

Host - Josh Anderson 51:58

No I and I've been avoiding it.

Host - Dane Higgins 52:00

Well why? Because everybody in the world is talking about them.

Host - Josh Anderson 52:03

I know we're different.

Best Budget Drivetrains For Real Riding

Host - Dane Higgins 52:04

I mean yeah I know but it's fun. Alright now to a do you know that when I ride mine I sometimes go brap. I'm sure you do I am sure you do all right for our final new uh category uh this is uh the budget part oh yeah you know bang for the buck bang for the buck and what I thought would be cool to talk about we we talked about all these like expensive things all the time well let's let's do this so go uh we're gonna when we do this bang for the buck we're just gonna pick a category and just kind of deep into it we're not gonna do like this is the bang for the buck bar this is the bang for the buck grid we're not gonna do a whole bunch in one each episode in each episode we're gonna deep into pick one category yeah one category and so this day we pick drivetrains drivetrain yeah and mountain bike specifically one by and I would say twelve and eleven speed but at least wide range.

Host - Josh Anderson 52:57

Yeah wide range wide range is the key uh because we have some eleven speeds on here that are worth talking about yeah so we have I think four different um five different actually uh grupos to talk about uh the first one oh okay I gotta I gotta I gotta preface this because we're saying bang for the buck a lot yeah these are least expensive uh there's there's nothing else out there in this category at this price right so yeah so so um I don't keep going there so like we we threw in a shram but most of what we're gonna talk about is Shimano.

Host - Dane Higgins 53:37

There's a Av Avan uh Aventon microshift microshift yes sorry and um but that's part of the the fun here is to debate like which one would we use? Okay I it's just like if you were to say this one's the least expensive and this one's the most expensive and everything in between what's the bang for the buck, that's a different story. So like in if we if we talk about old school like you talk about SLX and XT and XTR, XT usually wins bang for the buck uh because it's close enough to XTR but cheaper.

Host - Josh Anderson 54:10

So maybe this is like budget bang for the buck or something. I don't know but this in for this was this is the lower end in lower end yeah here's how I cheapest MTB drivetrain that I would actually consider running.

Host - Dane Higgins 54:23

Okay that's a good description that's how I described it. That's a good one.

Host - Josh Anderson 54:26

For me I'll just talk about what there's probably three that I would consider and you brought in a couple extra.

Host - Dane Higgins 54:32

Okay.

Host - Josh Anderson 54:33

And you're gonna be surprised by one of them.

Host - Dane Higgins 54:34

Okay.

Host - Josh Anderson 54:35

But I think first and foremost hands down 100% Dior 12 speed just fantastic drivetrain for the price a little heavier but it carries I think the performance like reliability of the higher levels is is got trickle down technology that's come all the way down to it and it's just a fantastic group O for the price. What do you have for the MSRP for a so for a for an X for a Dior group?

Host - Dane Higgins 55:03

So I did actuals. So around 425 to 580 the actual on that was around 405. That was picking a crank and a chain ring and things like that. That is a Shimano bottom bracket, Shimano crank, Shimano chain ring everything Shimano.

Host - Josh Anderson 55:19

And and yeah cranks head as well.

Host - Dane Higgins 55:21

And it's all 6100 M60100 12 speed stuff. And so um you can always mix and match with the 12 speed with a lot of the 12 speed stuff so you can play around with the pricing but around 405 is a real MSRP actual price whereas you know when we were researching we kept getting ranges because every once in a while you'll see you know some brand that's got it on sale or or it they were it was a chain cassette derailleur and shifter but it wasn't a crank or didn't include the bottom bracket or things like that.

Host - Josh Anderson 55:53

An off-brand chain or an off brand cassette sometimes it gets thrown in in the in the eBay groups.

Host - Dane Higgins 55:57

Yeah yeah and so um this is a a rear derailleur a shifter a cassette a chain a cassette a crank set with a ring and a bottom bracket and we did on um all my prices are assumed on the on uh shimano bottom bracket because these are all Shimano groups and just threaded um it's roughly the same price if you go press fit it doesn't matter too much.

Host - Josh Anderson 56:19

Yeah so about 400 bucks. Yep yep right away roughly 400 bucks for all that stuff.

Host - Dane Higgins 56:23

Uh just a fantastic option now I so in my numbers in my actuals the surprising thing is what I would have thought was the cheapest group was actually more than the Dior group and that was the Qs. So oh yeah no I knew that the Qs was more yeah and and to in my mind I think of Qs as a cheaper group I had to like do a lot of research to really kind of wrap my head around the fact that Qs isn't really meant to be cheaper.

Host - Josh Anderson 56:50

It's meant to last forever.

Host - Dane Higgins 56:52

It's stronger and it's heavier because of that. And so and it's 11 speed. Yep still wide range. Yep yeah wide range but um and so Qs is uh probably the better choice if you've got an e-bike or a commuter or somebody let's that this tired a replacing chain cassette and I won that levo yeah yeah strip the drivetrain off it because it had like a low-end tram drivetrain and I won't run any low-end shram I won't run shram but I won't run a low end tram for put that all in a box and bring it to my house. So I still have it. Yeah I know and I'm sure I'll give it to you because you you won't even sell it out of like it's not fair.

Host - Josh Anderson 57:26

Like I wouldn't ethically ethically I could ethically you can't sell shrimp. You have to like burn it or something. Although I am loving my RockShocks yes forks. Yes so let's let's give them that. But um but no I pulled off that it was an it was an NX or SX combination drivetrain and I put the cues.

Host - Dane Higgins 57:44

Yeah SX we're gonna have a we're gonna do the yeah we'll talk about that. Yeah that uh what what it what is it um office space office space we're gonna do the office space printer scene but we're gonna do with with SX. With RAM SX yeah so but uh I've got the cues on that levo carbon levo yeah and dude it's bulletproof yeah it's i it it is good it's meant to be strong like Shimano just they're like hey we we don't really need it to be the smoothest or the lightest but I just want it to last and then and they just went for it. Yeah so and they did that.

Host - Josh Anderson 58:17

So if you yeah if you're building up an e-bike uh I think and you want to build a budget e-bike like the Qs is a good option. So an e bike what's the price you have on the Q I'm sorry.

Host - Dane Higgins 58:27

Qs for uh MSRP actual so like the range that we kept coming up with was like 380 to 490 but the actual if I go through uh the catalog with Shimano actual MSRPs it comes out to be 408. So it's just about the same price.

Host - Josh Anderson 58:42

A couple bucks yeah couple bucks more than Dior.

Host - Dane Higgins 58:44

Now it is based on an HG um not uh microspline and so that is something that you do have to factor in a little bit make sure your rear hub can handle so for instance if you're gonna upgrade your bike to Dior for that 405 and you don't have the right hub body that could affect your cost.

Host - Josh Anderson 59:05

Because you might have to buy a new hub body or maybe even a new rear real rear hub or rear wheel.

Host - Dane Higgins 59:09

Yeah. Yeah and so uh like for instance if you have a shram hub they're not gonna give you a Shimano micro drive or a micro spline hub body for it. Yep yep but if you have a Chris King or if you have a DT Swiss you can just swap hub bodies. Yep. So but that could add a hundred bucks or two like in i9's case like it's two hundred dollars for a hub body yeah whoa yeah i9 come on I know I know so now they they've gotten to where they sell it without the paws and stuff and so it's like just the hunk of aluminum for the most part and you have to put your all your stuff into it from your old one and it's a little cheaper.

Host - Josh Anderson 59:45

But um Oh I see why because it's got the guts in it too.

Host - Dane Higgins 59:48

Yeah a little bit but they all have the guts in it. Okay. So like they're all like that. You know I guess the DTs are just a body right? Uh yeah yeah just a body yeah you usually use the I thought those were like 40 bucks. No about a hundred I know I know they're not it's so that's what we're talking about.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:00:03

When we're doing this you do have to factor that in pay attention to your hub body yeah okay so Dior is like 400 bucks Q's 11 speed but wide range strong not light yep not going to shift I mean none of the Shimano stuff's gonna shift you super amazing that's at least at least the this lower end stuff.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:00:22

Yeah the Dior's close like it's pretty close. I mean it's link glide right it's pretty pretty or that's the Q's is link glide the Qs is link glide yeah it's hyperglide on uh on the Dior.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:00:31

Yeah um about 408 so then I skipped SRAM NX because I would not actually put that on my bike but you have a different opinion.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:00:42

Yeah we've used um NX and we've combined it with GX and even SX because some SX stuff is pretty good. Like uh they make an SX crank that is dub and the dub is the spindle and they make what's called a power spline which is awful don't buy a shram power spline sorry shram I'm so sorry that I'm saying this out loud but honestly the power spline system is awful um it's you said don't buy shram that's what I heard I no I said power spline damn you yeah I'm gonna take that yeah make a song out of Don't Buy Shram because I can't buy shram yeah don't buy shram but the SX Shram or um Shram SX dub cranks are nice and they're inexpensive. The NX cassette we use all the time it's a good cassette it is an HG compatible cassette so that is one of our fixers for when people are upgrading. So like a big thing that happens in the shop with with what we're talking about right now is they come in with their older bike two by ten or whatever and they're need a chaining cassette uh their pulleys are worn out they want to upgrade and they're like I want to can I I I don't even think I can put 12 speed on my bike. It won't fit that happens all the time and it will fit I'll tell you guys it'll fit um which is cool unless your bike is seven speed or I think if it's eight or newer we can fit it but if it's seven speed you're screwed. I've been telling girls that my whole life right yep so anyway yeah you tried to press a button uh so anyway uh uh so uh it'll fit NX has been the way that we can actually do like a GX upgrade on somebody's give them a crappy NX cassette it's a better cassette um but it fits their old hub body so they're not spending that money so I you know and and you know I'm neutral on this because I sell them both and I love them both. But if somebody came into the shop and they had an HG uh cassette hub body and they're looking at Dior and they're looking at Shram, believe it or not it may actually be cheaper to do the Shram build. And that's because the cassette makes sense. And so you we have to factor that in and so that's something you have to factor in. Yeah. And then the NX uh will often mix in NX and uh GX and build what we call the Nica drivetrains which is we basically put the best working stuff and then get the least expensive stuff to work together so that we get the bang for the buck that's our is it like NX shifter, NX cassette, gx uh derailer? Yes. Yeah in most cases that's it. And then if the bike that's coming in actually has an X D driver uh we'll do GX derailler NX shifter and we'll do an um X G X? No uh X O cassette really if they can afford it because the XO is such a big jump in weight savings. Oh and so but only if they've got X D driver. Otherwise we still stick with the NX and what is the XO cassette?

Host - Josh Anderson 1:03:37

That's like two grand or something?

Host - Dane Higgins 1:03:38

No it's but it's close. It's very close. Uh and that's the and that's the drawback to them it's not really two grand. And so like bang for the buck when you're in a racer is going to be different than when you're in this case and so what is the NX drivetrain? What do you got in the $498 for actual $500? Yeah and so that's a complete uh NX drivetrain. So like the big thing that I noticed was uh like for instance um it's got the same cost in crank as Shimano but I would say the big thing is the rear derailer $125 MSRP versus $75.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:04:17

So so there's a hundred bucks more to get a crappy NX drivetrain that I wouldn't run compared to the Shimano Dior drive train.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:04:26

You can not be neutral to me no it's my that's my place.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:04:30

Okay so I want to talk about a shram drivetrain that I if it was the zombie apocalypse I might actually run.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:04:36

A 7090 or 70 yeah 70 but in this case we're talking about the the the T type the T type yeah so the Eagle 70 uh drivetrain which is a mechanical version of their transmission and the least expensive option but it's still not a cheap group so that uh the uh I so here's here's what I would do like if I were to look at the probably the number one people looking at transmission at the low end guess what guess what kind of bike they have what kind of bike do they have transmission low end is it an e-bike yes yeah and so if you do like if I was an entry level e-bike low end cues the next level up I would do 70 okay uh transmission and and um I did just ride yesterday uh a new Norco that had the Dior was it Dior? Yeah I think it was Dior um 12 speed drivetrain on it and I was really surprised on how well the e-bike did with the Dior with the Dior. And and if for people that don't know e bikes or don't know what I'm talking about let me just explain real quick that on an e bike when you stop pedaling and let that shift happen on your regular bike the e bike will keep pedaling. So when you're shifting an e bike it's often under full power and so the drivetrains don't like that. And T-type is one of the only ones that really was designed to do that way. And so one of the reasons that people always kind of aspire, I think T-type is the most popular in e-bikes, is because of that overrun or delay, or um, you know, the motor is is still giving it power when you intended to actually back off a little bit. And so the drivetrain takes a lot of abuse, and the T-type is okay with that. It it functions. It's interesting.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:06:27

I I do notice on my XT drivetrain, on my e-bike, it is a lot crunchier and louder than it is on my other bikes.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:06:34

And so you're doing a lot more harm to it faster. Yeah. And and that's and that's what people will say is oh e-bikes go through drivetrains. And so Shram kind of, you know, the T-type is is is fixing that. So if you start with Qs, that's great, because you have a more durable system. So as it gets more crunchy and shifts under load more, you have more metal and more stuff that's just not going to wear out as fast. And then the next level up would be the 70 T-type, which is giving you all of the transmission stuff, but it's mechanical, it's not electric. Yep. Um the I can't remember the number of the Shram cassette, but they make an HG cassette now. Uh huh. So you don't have to have a special XD. So you can have either. That's really cool. So like those AMFLs, the low-end ones, come with that cassette on it. So that is really cool. And then you do need a T-type chain ring, but there's a ton of them available. Oh, um, one of the things that I have to say about the Dior 12 speed, that's the drawback, aside from the micro spline, is the Shimano has a very distinct and special chain ring profile. And you just can't run anybody, uh any chain ring on a 12-speed Shimano system. And so that's important to understand.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:07:52

Because you have to run a narrow wide, is that what you're saying?

Host - Dane Higgins 1:07:54

No, you can't. And so you have to run a Shimano 12-speed compatible one. And it has actually narrower, so it's a narrow, narrow wide.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:08:02

It's like narrower than obviously like Wolftooth must make one.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:08:06

They do, okay. They do, but it if you were to, you know, run an 11-speed system, you don't have that issue. And if you run the shram systems, like the T-type cassette or derailers, I'm sorry, I'm misspoking. Uh the Shram chain rings, T-type chain rings are backwards compatible, and they will work with a with like an Eagle Chain or a T-type chain or GX drive train. That is important. If you run uh like a narrow wide, normal narrow wide chain ring with a Shimano, it'll often pop the links open. So because it's too wide.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:08:45

Oh Jesus. Yeah. I think I might know a problem that I have. So I'm like, why does this keep happening? Yeah, okay.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:08:54

So we set up uh my old business partner's bike with full XTR when it first came out, brand new. And I don't remember why we didn't put an X oh we put a fancy uh oval front chain ring on it.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:09:06

Yeah.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:09:07

And um, and so he went up to the White Mountains and immediately started breaking chains. And and what we found out, we didn't know at the time, you know, because it's fairly fresh. We haven't gone through the training, we haven't really dove into it, is that the chains were skinnier than the cog could handle. If you're putting your absolute black oval on there because you want to get a little extra power, you know, and you're doubt and your dead stroke, um, it was popping the chain rings open or the the chain links open. And so he was breaking chains left and right, and so we had to put a uh XTR on there.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:09:38

Let's save that topic because I want to talk about oval chain rings in the future.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:09:41

Yeah, absolutely.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:09:41

Because we haven't talked about that on the podcast. Um But what's the price on the 70?

Host - Dane Higgins 1:09:45

The 70. I don't have an actual on that one.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:09:48

So do you had your I had a price of five seventy five.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:09:52

There we go. That's about right. So yeah, so so it it's it's more, yeah, but it's not crazy. Nope. So it's not 2,000. It's not you know crazy.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:10:02

So $400 for both the Shimano, $500 for the NX, $600 roughly for the 70. Yeah. And then um the other one I wanted to talk about, um and this is a a drive a smaller drivetrain company. Uh Pink Bike actually has a good podcast on this, if you haven't heard it, on the new Microshift uh Advent MX 11 Speed. Um and I used to build tons and tons of bikes. Um I would buy older bikes, and uh at that time it seems like things were more compatible, and so I was able to build them up and I would I would use uh strip off all the old stuff and I would put my new Microsoft micro shift advent um drivetrains on them and they were fantastic.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:10:48

Yeah, yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:10:49

Super cheap.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:10:50

Yep.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:10:50

Um the price that I have is is three hundred.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:10:53

Okay.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:10:53

Um I don't know if you did a price on the shift.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:10:56

I didn't see that one, yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:10:57

But uh but they don't make a crank set and they don't make a chain, so that price of three hundred would include the Dior crank set and a and Microshift says to use a KMC chain.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:11:10

So uh the the 300 does include uh chain and the crank.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:11:15

The cost of a Dior crank set and the cost of a KMC chain.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:11:18

Okay, so when we said um rear drailer, shifter, cassette, chain, crank, ring, bottom bracket.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:11:24

Not bottom bracket.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:11:25

So what would a bottom bracket cost? 27 to 30 bucks.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:11:28

Okay, so 330 bucks. Okay. So the cheapest option, it sounds like in our list here, it was this Microshift MX 11 speed.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:11:35

Now uh the Dior uh 5100 11 speed is only 380.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:11:40

Okay.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:11:40

So tell me something.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:11:41

Is it wide range?

Host - Dane Higgins 1:11:43

Yeah uh yes. Yeah, they're all wide range.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:11:45

Okay.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:11:46

Um would you I would put the Dior on. Okay. So for for 50 bucks. 50 bucks, you would just go with the Shimano. What do you think makes your decision on that? Is it brand recognition?

Host - Josh Anderson 1:11:57

Shimano look at that hat right there.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:11:58

Yeah, you got the Shimano hat. Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:12:00

Shimano fanboy.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:12:01

Okay, all right.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:12:02

I mean, like, I'm a fanboy.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:12:03

Do you think um so I I I'm always interested because my so let's let's be clear on the fanboy. Yeah. This is 30 years of on uh of of that's what I was about to say.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:12:13

It's 30 years of using Shimano products on I don't even know, 30 different bikes. Yes, yeah, in building, I don't know, a hundred different bikes or more, and I'm a fisherman. Yeah, and I use their reels. Yeah, yeah. So and so like I've just had such good experience, and then on top of it, my company deals with Japanese companies.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:12:33

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:12:33

We don't deal with Shimano, but we deal with Mitsubishi heavy industries, Kawasaki heavy industries, and just like they're hard to work with and they're slow and annoying and expensive, but goddamn, their stuff, yeah, it just works every time. Yeah.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:12:47

And so I you did just describe Shimano.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:12:50

But um That's I mean, but that so I'm in love with that design philosophy.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:12:54

So so you even though you're a fanboy, you're really just basing that off of like just the brand. My experience. It's its reputation, it's built.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:13:03

With me.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:13:04

Yeah. But not just you, but in general, it's done that with a lot of people. And I would I would say that's that's probably the only thing that Microshift has to deal with. Is because the early Microshift wasn't that great. I don't know. Yeah, and and in the bike shop experience anyway, it was like always like uh there's you know, uh Microshift. I have a couple groups on my kids' bikes uh growing up.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:13:25

How is it working for you?

Host - Dane Higgins 1:13:26

It was it was fine for them. Again, my kids are not out there.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:13:30

Grinding it the way you do it.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:13:31

Yeah, yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:13:31

But I mean, I built I mean at least a dozen bikes with um Advent X, yeah. 10 speed, wide range. Yep. And uh with guys that were ripping.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:13:40

Yep.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:13:41

And no problems.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:13:42

Yep, yeah. And uh so what's crazy is back in my real weight weaning days, uh like on my I had a $350, back then was expensive, but Thai nitrate coated special super light cassette for my downhill bike, and it was like insanely light. And I put it on this bike, I built it with NV wheels, and I built it with all this high zootic exotic stuff, and it was a downhill bike. So it still had to be strong, but also light. And uh and I remember that that cassette just shifted like ass. Like it was awful. And so so like I learned early, you know, just because something's expensive doesn't mean it shifts. Doesn't mean it's great, and just because it's cheap doesn't mean it shifts great. Yeah. And I've always respected Shimano's probably their cassettes and chains as being some of the most refined, like they they their tooth profiles, the fact that they kind of pre-wear them, and that's probably not the right way. Like Shimano probably wouldn't want me saying it that way, but they go in and and take off some of the the sharp edges so that the chain moves quieter, yeah, through up and down. And that uh they do that with the chain, the chain has certain bevels, and as you get a nicer chain, you'll see more bevels. And so, you know, you see the difference change. Yeah, and so like that is some of the stuff that they've been doing for years and years and years that sometimes people forget. And that's so if I was picking Bang for the Buck out of these groups, yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:15:07

Let's each pick let's eat pick two. What would you do?

Host - Dane Higgins 1:15:09

Dior 12 speed by by far.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:15:11

This is number one.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:15:11

Yeah. Now it's gonna go on an e-bike, it'd be the Shram T Type 70.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:15:16

Okay, and you would put that on above the Qs.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:15:19

So here's why. And uh because shifting under load for the extra hundred bucks. Yeah. Uh I've now got a way stronger derailler, way stronger, can take big impacts, and when you're riding an e-bike, so you're sometimes just smashing through stuff and not realizing how much damage you're doing. Because again, if that's a 50-pound bike and it hits a rock, you've got a lot more force.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:15:42

It's interesting because my riding style is so differently. Yeah, I don't prioritize that.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:15:46

You see, so I look at that because I have to fix that shit all day long. And and so I got a more d durable derailleur, I got a derailer that's rebuildable.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:15:54

Yep.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:15:55

The crazy thing is that 70, you can upgrade that thing to electric if you want to. If you wanted to. Yeah. Um, it's whole cage is replaceable. And for that extra hundred bucks, I feel like I'm getting a drivetrain that will last longer on a bike that is probably more likely to eat the drivetrain faster. And so, and so to me, hundred bucks, absolutely. You know, the the cues I think is great if I'm really just trying to make that bike as cheap as possible. Yeah. And I still want durable and it really makes a money difference. But if you look at Qs coming out at 408, and you were talking what, five, five hundred? Was it um what was the for the Eagle? Uh for the 70, yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:16:42

It was it was six hundred. Five seventy five.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:16:44

Five seventy five. So a hundred and seventy-five dollar difference. I don't think that would make that big a difference if you're talking four thousand dollar bike.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:16:51

Yeah. You know, maybe forty five hundred is I think like the street price, it's about a hundred dollar difference. Yeah.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:16:57

Yeah. Yeah. And so for me, I would I would go with the shram.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:17:01

Go with the shram. Okay. Well, I would go with the sh I would go, you know, on a on an acoustic bike for sure, Shabato Dior. And you got me thinking now of you've made some good arguments on the 70, because I've already put cues on one e-bike and I love it, but I am in the near term gonna have to upgrade my Rocky if I keep that bike. I don't know if we're gonna keep that bike or not.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:17:26

You want to know something crazy? What? Your Rocky is one of the few bikes that you have to put a GX derailler on. Or no, I'm sorry, you have to put an XO derailer on. Why? I I I'll have to see if it's a good thing.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:17:39

There's no there's no derail, there's no it's not a universal deraillar hanger.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:17:42

It it is, but it's converted because they have that adjustable wheelbase. Uh-huh. And so we have a couple Rocky riders. Uh the first one it happened, we made the same mistake. We sold them a GX, then went to put it on, and realized uh on the GX transmission, they uh change where the battery goes on. It doesn't sit on the back, it sits in the cradle.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:18:02

Yeah.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:18:02

And because of that, the profile of the cradle and and where it mounts to the bike changes a little bit and it hits the rocky.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:18:09

I'm not going to put an electric drivetrain on this thing.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:18:11

I get that. I get that.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:18:12

But if I so you're saying I can't put the 70 on it.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:18:14

I I would need to check the specs on the 70 and the 90 to see if they have the same problem. Problem. Yeah. And uh so if the if they do, then yeah, you wouldn't. Back to Qs. Yep, back to Qs. Back to Qs. Yeah. All right. Well have yet again. And also that is a lot of wins. That is a selling feature. If you are riding a non-UDH bike.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:18:34

You can't use a 70.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:18:35

Then you can't use the 70. And so then the Qs would be the way if it was e-bike.

Listener Feedback And Closing

Host - Josh Anderson 1:18:40

Universal DM Garhanger. All right, buddy, we have gotten through all four of our topics. Holy crap. And none of our bike shop seeker topics, and we are out of time.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:18:48

That's good. I'm hoping everybody hears this and lets us know if this is the same thing.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:18:54

Yeah, just let us know if you like this format. If you do, we'll do more of these. I mean, obviously we'll we'll use the same four, you know, what are people talking about? What grinds and McGears is the hype real and bang for the buck. We use those same four categories, those segments. Um they'll they'll uh the theory here is that they'll end up being segments that you can rely on and count on and understand.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:19:10

And I I would I would say that if you get a hold of us and give us a subject, give us something, it may end up being on the show because we want to know what everybody else is talking about too.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:19:19

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. All right, buddy. Dane, I appreciate you.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:19:23

All right, man. Keep riding. Keep riding.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:19:49

You got questions, comments, or feedback? Well, we'd love to hear from you. Shoot us an email. You can send it to mountain cog at gmail.com. There's a couple things you could do to help us out. First, you could tell your friends about Mountain Cog. And also, it would be great if you'd give us a good rating and review over at Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or wherever you listen. We appreciate y'all. Go ride and keep the rubber side down.