Mountain Cog
Mountain bike podcast that will make you laugh and learn. Featuring a wide range of passionate guests. Available everywhere (Apple, Spotify etc).
Mountain Cog
135 - Can You Buy Speed On A Mountain Bike? The $10K Bike Debate
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Can you buy speed? It's the question every mountain biker asks themselves while staring at a $10k build in the shop window, and it's the one Josh and Dane finally sit down to debate. They break the argument into pieces — weight, suspension, drivetrain efficiency, tires, frame stiffness, brakes — and figure out which of those upgrades are real and which ones are just good marketing. Turns out, the honest answer is somewhere in the middle, and it depends a lot less on the price tag than you'd think.
Dane brings shop-floor stories about what actually gets people faster (hint: it's usually not what they think), and Josh lays out the numbers on price-per-pound and where the smart money stops making sense. They also cover depreciation, the emotional cost of crashing an expensive bike, and why your tires deserve way more attention than they're probably getting. And because it's MTNCOG, there's a detour into Josh's worst ride of the year that has nothing to do with bike specs and everything to do with bad timing.
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Twizzlers, Bikes, And Bad Jokes
Host - Josh AndersonSo you just said, um, I'm not gonna eat that, I'm gonna let it tease me. And then you pointed towards your phone. Right next to it is a Twizzler. Yeah. And I looked at it at your phone and there was a girl gyrating on your phone. And I'm not sure what's teasing you. Is it the Twizzler or is it the gyrating girl?
Host - Dane HigginsUnfortunately, in this at this stage in my life, it's the Twizzler. I didn't even notice the girl. So that's bad.
Host - Josh AndersonUm had it had it been a bike on my phone, I would have been like it would have been the gyrating bike would have been more than your than the gyrating girl.
Host - Dane HigginsWhen I was dating my wife, we would drive down the street and I would like stare at people as we went by, like near the U of A. You know, uh, so there's a lot of cyclists.
Host - Josh AndersonA lot of talent in the U of A. Oh, different kind of talent.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, yeah. And so my wife, I remember on one occasion saying, What are you did you just look at that girl's ass? And I'm like, What girl? What girl? I'm looking at the bike. I was looking at the bike, yeah. And that's the God's honest truth. Like, no joke. I was looking at the bike. I had no idea there was even a girl on the bike. I was just trying to figure out what kind of bike it was.
Host - Josh AndersonMaybe there needs to be a word for someone that's sexually attracted to a bicycle. It's not sexual though.
Host - Dane HigginsIt's not, yeah. I heard in England some guy married a car.
Host - Josh AndersonI don't know. Oh, I think I heard about that. Yeah.
Host - Dane HigginsSo I don't know. I I I got a joke. So um I'm I'm often not the guy bringing the jokes, so I I made a made an effort and uh You made an effort.
Host - Josh AndersonYou just spent three seconds before we recorded something like that.
Host - Dane HigginsNo, but I had like but I actually remembered to do it. Okay, fair enough. It wasn't like we were halfway in. I have one of my worst jokes that I've told you before. In fact, my um when I was on as a guest, before I was a host, yeah. So here's another one.
Host - Josh AndersonSo this is another really bad one. Yep. A groaner?
Host - Dane HigginsYep. That's hopefully. I mean, that's not a gloomer. Not a gloomer, but a groaner. This is not supposed to make everybody laugh their butts off like this, hopefully. So um, why uh why don't dinosaurs talk? Why don't dinosaurs talk? Yes.
Host - Josh AndersonOh god, I don't know.
Host - Dane HigginsBecause they're all dead.
Host - Josh AndersonThat was not bad. Maybe it was your delivery was bad. I mean that made me laugh, like genuinely laugh.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, but it was not like uh I love stuff like that because it's like you're like racking your brain trying to figure out what's the joke gonna be. And then it's like that's perfect.
Host - Josh AndersonI mean, I was I was like going down the T because there's a lot of T-Rex jokes about their little arms.
Host - Dane HigginsOh, the arms, and yeah, yeah. Like uh yeah, or why are tires flat or they're too tired, or no wire bikes? I don't know.
Host - Josh AndersonWell, Wednesday night here on the MCP, we're in uh guru bikes here in Tucson, Arizona, and it will give you a little forewarning. There is a monsoon rolling through, so there is a chance that we'll have a disruption if we lose
Ghosted At Sunrise Bike Park
Host - Josh Andersonpower. Uh, we'll see. And fresh off Dane going up to the bike park and ghosting me.
Host - Dane HigginsYes, yeah.
Host - Josh AndersonWhy did you ghost me? I don't did I ghost you? Yeah, I was like, hey, who are you going with? Because I was gonna go. And you didn't respond. What? You didn't respond. We had plenty of room. And then I put a question mark uh like four hours later, who are you going with? And you still didn't respond. So I was like, he ghosted me twice. I'm like, screw you, I'm not going to freaking sunrise.
Host - Dane HigginsThat was genuinely not intentional. And you know, we got rained out, so we got like three or four runs in.
Host - Josh AndersonThat's called karma.
Host - Dane HigginsYes, yeah. Um, but uh yeah, and my bike, I got to dial in my bike a little bit. I got another new bike.
Host - Josh AndersonYeah. So Dane sends me a picture. I'm like, hey, how is sunrise? I'm like messing with him now because he ghosted me. Yeah, you didn't even he didn't even know I was messing with him. And he's like, Oh yeah, the new bike worked out good. I'm like, motherfucker, I just talked to you like six days ago.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, yeah.
Host - Josh AndersonWhen did you buy a new bike?
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, what did you get? So uh this is gonna take up half the episode, but I I decided to get rid of my downhill bikes because I haven't been racing. And so I put both my downhill bikes up for sale, ended up selling both of them, and I was like kind of done with downhill bikes. I took my Mach 6 to Whistler, yeah. We had an episode on that.
Host - Josh AndersonThat's more of an Enduro bike.
Host - Dane HigginsIt's but it handled Whistler, no problem. For sure. And I'm like, this bike's capable. Um, I have a Firebird, uh, the an old prototype. Which is also an Enduro bike. Yeah, but it's an old prototype, so it'll probably be for sale. It's up for sale. So both of them are for sale. Everything you own is for sale at all times.
Host - Josh AndersonAny if you want anything that Dane has, just offer him something.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, just give me some money, I'll give it to you. Um, but uh the uh so I I then found so I then found uh Trek was having a sale on a downhill bike. It's a older model, and I'm like, wow, this is a good deal. And then a friend of ours called me asking about uh the new Norco and I'm excited about the new Norco, but it's not available. Not available till like a so it's not available until like February, right? And so I told him that and I said, but hey, I just saw this other bike, and so we are we built him a new trek uh session, and that's Frito, yep, yeah, and I shout out to Frito. Yeah, gorgeous bike, like full carbon, 29. Uh we did DVO suspension on it, got a killer price for him. And then um I bought one for myself because I'm like, all right, it's cheap enough, I'll I'll get that and I'll ride it.
Host - Josh AndersonSo it's sitting in a box and back because then wait, so so in the six days since I talked to you, you bought two downhill bikes.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, then not just one. My my pivot rep called me and said, Hey man, there's this one particular pivot that we're gonna we're gonna drop the price on because we just need to move some units. They're not necessarily running a sale, but it's a particular color they're not gonna carry forward. And this is the new six bar, uh, which is Yeah, and it's a Phoenix. The Phoenix, yeah. So high pivot six bar. And I was like, damn it. So did you buy a full bike or did you buy just a bought the full bike, yeah. And so uh I put it together stock. I didn't, except for suspension, I changed the suspension on it, but um I'll ride it and see. The so far, it is unbelievably plush. Like I could not get over how smooth I kept thinking I had flat tires.
Host - Josh AndersonAnd you're attributing this to the frame, not to the suspension.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, yeah. I mean, I put a DVO coil on the back and it definitely feels great, but it uses this uh high pivot idler type um set setup. So no pedal kickback. Uh no pedal kickback. It's a crazy kind of jack shaft. There's two chains on it, and but man, it is so smooth. Like, I can't wait to go through rougher stuff. I didn't have a chance this last weekend because of the rain. But the bike is smooth. So very cool. Yeah, so I'll be riding that, and then I'm sure that'll be for sale. Anybody rides a medium and wants a downhill bike, give me a call.
Host - Josh AndersonSo but uh so you designed this episode. Yeah. So instead of me introducing it, why don't you introduce what it is we're gonna talk about today?
Host - Dane HigginsSo, you know, uh going through bikes left and right, uh, this this particular one that I just got is the lower tier bike. It's not the top of the line. Uh-huh. Um, building up that mock sex, uh, using my Firebird prototype, which is just literally thrown together with parts. Uh-huh. Uh, just kind of going through bikes and seeing which one's faster. I I I kept running into this urge to just go all out, put carbon fiber wheels on and carbon fiber bars and like all this stuff. And I just got to thinking about, you know, does this stuff make you faster? You know, is is a ten thousand dollar bike gonna make you a faster rider?
Host - Josh AndersonSo that's the topic of our podcast today.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah. Does a ten thousand dollar bike make you faster? Yeah. And and that's generic, it doesn't always have to be ten thousand, but it's just an exploration of like basically an expensive enough bike. Can you buy speed? You know, can you buy speed? And is it worth it? And should you, you know. For instance, I can tell you that Frito's bike is way less than mine. Way less. Let me almost half the cost. Right? Less than half the cost of my bike. I bet you anything if I were to be like right on your tail. Well, no, if it you you gotta consider the rider. So if yeah if I were to take both those bikes myself and ride them back to back, would I see any noticeable difference on a six-minute run? You know?
Host - Josh AndersonYeah, yeah.
Host - Dane HigginsAnd and that's kind of the question. And and one was more than double the price.
Host - Josh AndersonSo when you so so you built this the concept for this episode around gravity bikes.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah.
The Question Can You Buy Speed
Host - Josh AndersonBut I was really you didn't tell me that.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, yeah.
Host - Josh AndersonI was focused on more of the cross country side where I actually think it makes a big difference.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah.
Host - Josh AndersonBut but we'll get to that. But can we c can we talk about is your is it okay if we talk about like all different types of mountain bikes? Yeah, yeah.
Host - Dane HigginsI think I think in general, mountain bikes we'll stick with because that's our concept. Mountain bikes, yeah.
Host - Josh AndersonBut like not just gravity.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, we did get into a heated argument, not argument, uh, conversation in the shop where commuter bikes came up. Yeah. Uh, because it gets weird when you start throwing in other things. So we'll stick with mountain. Okay. Um, pretty much sticking with like the same category for the most part. Like, and and so like one of the things that I did was kind of research some of the tests that were out there. And yeah, did anyone do these tests, which they have to quantify to quantify whether these expensive things make you faster? Yeah, so there's some tests on the market. Uh did one with uh Trek Rail um 7 versus the Rail 99, which are two same formats. Uh, I believe the rail is a uh e-bike, and so they had the same motor systems and batteries, but they were just really a parts, and maybe one was aluminum frame and one was carbon frame. Okay. And so there was just really a price difference, but GN Geo and everything was the same. Right. And uh, and so they they that was a good back-to-back test. There's a couple other tests that I was doing some research on.
Host - Josh AndersonSo I'm gonna use before you get in all the details, yeah. Can we tell the audience like kind of the format that we have you laid out here? Yeah. So you had like four segments. First is, oh, and that's the uh that's the emergency warning coming across telling us about an imminent threat. Yes, we're all gonna die. We're all gonna die. Yeah, it's just the normal monsoon stuff. We're not taking it as a joke. It's probably a haboob. Did you see the video? I'm I'm on a tangent. Okay. And I got some kudos for going on a tangent recently. Okay, did you? Yeah, okay. Like multiple people commented on my wow. Josh went on a tangent. Yeah. Did you see the girl that got sucked under?
Host - Dane HigginsYes.
Host - Josh AndersonYeah. So we have a we have a loop that goes all around Tucson. We talked about it before.
Host - Dane HigginsNo, it's not the loop. It's on uh Sabino Canyon.
Host - Josh AndersonYeah, okay, fair enough. Fair enough. Yeah. Sabino Canyon. But she but long story short, she crossed where the water was running.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah.
Host - Josh AndersonAnd one of the things we talk about in Tucson is if you cross even two inches of water in a car, it can move your car.
Host - Dane HigginsIf you gotta go on a tangent, you gotta do it right. Okay, so first of all, people don't know Sabino Canyon. So it's a mountain tram road that goes up through a canyon and it's alongside a creek, which is normally pretty dry or trickly. But when we have our monsoons and it rains in the mountains, a lot of water starts coming down. And the water that normally would go through the culverts under the road will actually get so high it overflows the road. And they've built the road to do this, yeah. You know, so that it they expect it. Um, but it in Arizona and and where we're at, where there's flash floods, we all know that when it rains, if you see water across the roadway, stay away. You're not supposed to cross it because sometimes it'll wash out, but two, the current can pull you. And even like two inches of moving water can move a car. Yes, exactly. And so this lady was crossing it on a bike, and the water pushed her wheels out from under, and she fell upstream side off the bridge into the water. Yep. You know, it's not like a long ways. I mean, the water's right there. Yeah, I mean she was waist deep. Yeah. But then the culvert that goes underneath the roadway sucked her under started to grab her current-wise and pull her down.
Host - Josh AndersonAnd then four guys held onto her.
Host - Dane HigginsYep.
Host - Josh AndersonAnd for reliability reasons, I won't talk about what I think happened, but long story short, they ended up having to revive her.
Host - Dane HigginsYes, yeah.
Host - Josh AndersonBut she, as far as I know, she survived. Did you see the other lady who that was trying to help her and so and went under and she just popped right out?
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, there's another culvert next to the one the lady was in. She was near that one in the water, on the on the um upstream upstream side of this bridge, and trying to help, lost her footing, got sucked into the culvert, and just popped out the other side. And the and the and all of this is being videotaped by some person.
Host - Josh AndersonSome guy that's like, I'm not gonna help, I'm just gonna sit here and run the video. Yeah.
Host - Dane HigginsI mean, granted, there were so many people helping that you know he would have been in the way. But you he's pan downriver and sees this lady just pop out. And she's like, fairly comical.
Host - Josh AndersonI'm sure she was freaking out like crazy. It's kinda yeah, now that the lady's okay and everyone's okay, it's good. But yeah, the lesson there is like if you come to the
Monsoon Safety And Flash Floods
Host - Josh Andersonif you come to anywhere that does have monsoons and has big washes where it's dry and the water moves fast, stay away from running water. Yeah, even on a bike. Like, I mean bicycle, car, if you're walking, just it can mess you up.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, it's crazy.
Host - Josh AndersonSo all right, so sorry. That was our tangent. How do we have this uh or how does Dane have this um episode set up? Four segments. Yeah. The first is we're gonna make the argument why a ten thousand dollar bike or an expensive bike can make you faster.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah.
Host - Josh AndersonIn the second segment, we're gonna argue against it. Yes. This is why it doesn't it doesn't make sense. Yep. In the third one, we're gonna talk about what you actually feel.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah.
Host - Josh AndersonAnd you're looking at me with furled brow, but you designed this. I I did, but you had some help. Yeah, I had some help. And the fourth one is like, what would we actually spend our money on? Yep. No surprise, I'm cheap. So I will likely fall on the cheap side of this argument.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, it's funny because uh we were talking about that in the shop too, about where you would be at. And it's you're weird, you know, like you'll spend you'll spend the money, but you don't want to want to. I I I refer the Zebs, right? I'll buy an ultimate all day long. Yeah, you'll buy a Zeb ultimate and not wait for the new one. Because you you want to stick with the one that you know. Yes, and that's the weirdness. You know, you're like, I'm gonna spend that much money, but I don't want the new one. Even though it's gonna be out in the middle. I want the one I know, yeah. Exactly. Even though it's gonna be out in three days. Yeah, I tried to get you to wait, and I was like, I was like, no, give me the one I know.
Host - Josh AndersonYeah, you're like, what? Like you if you wait, I might be able to get you. No, no, I want that one and I want it now. Just order it. You're like, okay, okay, dumbass.
Host - Dane HigginsIt's just weird. So so uh so a ten thousand dollar bike, we're gonna argue for it. Yeah, so argue for it. So I've got some notes.
Host - Josh AndersonYou want to start? You want me to start?
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, so I I would say that uh for me, as you when I was racing, uh as I you know, got faster and faster, uh-huh, I got to a point where I never wanted my equipment to limit me. To hold you back. Yeah. And so spending the money on the equipment and then knowing that if I didn't do well, it was all me was my way of kind of dealing with the fact that, you know, that I just I just I don't know. I I don't know if other racers feel that way, but for me that was important. And I did have other people on the team that weren't like that. They they were just on a budget, you know, and you're always constrained by your budget. But I felt like if I got the better tires, I would be faster. If I got, you know, if I took a cute a few grams off of here and there to get the bike lighter, uh huh, it would just give me a little advantage. And sometimes, you know, it really made a big difference. So, like on just the weight of the bike uh being lighter, you know, getting uphills uh really makes a difference. Drivetrains, you know, I noticed a difference between, you know, those entry level when I'm getting started, kind of clapped out. Um, when I was a team mechanic, we never wanted somebody to pop a chain or lose their balance on the bike sprinting because the drivetrain was worn out. So we'd put fresh chains and cassettes and and rings on all the time. So so that's kind of my argument for you'll definitely be faster with better equipment.
Host - Josh AndersonSo I broke it down a little differently.
Host - Dane HigginsOkay.
Host - Josh AndersonAnd I think I covered some of the same things. I broke it down into categories.
Host - Dane HigginsOkay.
Host - Josh AndersonSo the the first, and so we can talk about maybe each one, and I think some of it's overlap with what you just said.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, yeah.
Host - Josh AndersonSo the first one is like weight savings.
Host - Dane HigginsOkay.
Host - Josh AndersonAs you spend more money, typically the parts get lighter.
Host - Dane HigginsYep.
Host - Josh AndersonAnd then the overall bike gets lighter. And I I did a bunch of research, and I well, I'll I'll spare you like the details, but there is several quantified, like controlled um uh studies that were done that can demonstrate that a lighter bike actually
The Case For A Pricy Bike
Host - Josh Andersonmakes you faster. Yes, yeah, right.
Host - Dane HigginsUm and and and that's the trickiest part is it doesn't always mean that you'll win the race. Because there may be somebody who's riding a heavier bike that's just a better athlete than you. And so uh so like it doesn't necessarily we're not saying a ten thousand dollar bike will win the race. What we're saying is it'll make you faster.
Host - Josh AndersonYes. Yes. And I think it was uh a kilogram, which is two point two pounds the in this study was like forty-three percent or forty-three seconds faster. The problem is I don't, and the reason I don't go into the details is I don't have all the details of the study. I don't know how long the course was. It it doesn't matter, they but it is quantifiable.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, they took one scenario and did the same distance and and climb. Yep. And then they duplicated that but just added weights to the bike.
Host - Josh AndersonYeah, and if it was really a controlled study, they would have had to do it like 30 times to remove the variability of the human elements.
Host - Dane HigginsOr on a machine or something, or on a machine or something. Yeah, exactly.
Host - Josh AndersonSo weight savings, I think that's real. We can quantify that. Yeah. The second um area is suspension quality. As you pay more, yeah, your suspension product gets better. Yep. We just talked about the the Zeb Ultimate.
Host - Dane HigginsYep, yeah.
Host - Josh AndersonI love that fork. Yeah, I will spend out my ass for the rest of my life for a fork that feels like that. And um the high-end like suspension, high-end air and coil shocks and fork um track terrain better. Yeah, they feel better, reduces fatigue over long rides, and it gives you more consistent speed across the ride. Yeah. What do you think? I I think that's true.
Host - Dane HigginsI I think it's true. I while you were explaining that, something flashed into my head that I have to like explain because somebody's gonna be like, wait, you know, it makes you more planted. Well, no, you know, same category a cross country fork versus cross-country fork versus cross-country fork. You can't take like a Fox 32 race fork and then put it up against a Fox 38 and like you can't take a lot of these are all within category. Yeah, you can't take a low-end, you know, the base model 32, put it up against a factory 38 and say the th 38 will be faster on a cross-country bike.
Host - Josh AndersonThat's it won't, because the 38, yeah. But but if you have a a factory 34 versus a baseline 34, yeah, you're you're gonna get a better ride.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, I think I think what you'll get is the ability to fine-tune it more to make it a better ride to where you can be faster on it.
Host - Josh AndersonAnd it's and it's also lighter.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah. So back to the weight thing. Yeah, typically not always, by the way. Oh, really? Yeah. Every once in a while, when they add all the doodads and the little things, yeah, there's extra weight that goes in. And so uh I remember we built a race fork that didn't even have a damper in it once just to get it as light as possible. And I can tell you that fork was not fast because since the There's no damper? Yeah, so it was just a hairspring? Just a hairspring. That's all it did was hold you up and compress bumps. And and b oh, I can't say that word. Uh because I can't say that, yeah.
Host - Josh AndersonLike we were gonna turn back in the day into a drinking game. Yes, for the for the Mount Gog.
Host - Dane HigginsOur last episode, which was You said it like 37 times. Yeah, like you got drunk in the first five minutes. So uh like yeah.
Host - Josh AndersonI didn't actually get drunk. If you were playing the game, you would have been drunk in the first five minutes.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah. So um, no, we we uh I think it was a SID, it was gutted, just an airspring in it, and it was so light, and it was to make this overall bike light, but the fork was uncontrollable, like a bouncy. So it was a hill climbing type situation where you didn't need control. Um, you just really needed a light bike. Uh so that would Why not just put a rigid fork on it? Uh good question. I guess you're a suspension guy, if you put a rigid on it, it doesn't make sense. I don't know. Yeah. So um it was an experiment to just kind of see, but it did not work that great. So all right.
Host - Josh AndersonFirst one weight saving, second one suspension quality, third one, drivetrain efficiency. So when you spend more, you get lighter, different components that will transfer power more directly. So your drivetrain in theory is more efficient uh at at taking power from your legs and putting it into the back wheel. What do you think about that?
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, I think um as you go up in quality, you're gonna get lighter because the manufacturers have kind of made that a point. So they have like directives that they give the engineers and and definitely reducing weight as you spend money is one of them. But also the efficiency of something, whether a bearing or in when it comes to drivetrains, uh, it's really I think their focus is uh a little bit in a lot more in how power is transferred and how much power you can put down while you shift. So as a pro athlete, you're putting out like 500 watts or whatever under a sprint, and if you can shift and not have to lighten up your load when you're doing that, you're gonna be faster than the guy who's maybe popping a gear or uh miss shifting or has to lighten up because it won't shift correctly. So and so that higher tier drivetrain may be lighter, but as you go higher and higher, the weight starts to get less and less of a difference, and things like shift quality under load is what starts to shine more. Right.
Host - Josh AndersonSo all right, so we got weight savings, lighter bike goes faster, you got the suspension quality, it tracks a train better, and you got efficiency of the drivetrain. The third topic that I have is wheel and tire performance. And so um if you take carbon wheels with good hubs and better tire compounds, you get better you get more effective like rolling resistance or less rolling resistance and more more better traction and better cornering confidence.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah. You agree? Yeah. I uh uh today when you got to the shop, I was building a bike and I showed it to you. Yeah. Uh full suspension Norco fluid for $1,800. Um rock shock suspension. So it's an alloy frame, right? Alloy frame, yeah. Rock shock suspension. Um, it has stands, wheels, Dior drivetrain. Dior uh 11 speed wide range.
Host - Josh AndersonUh it's just a E13 bar on it.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, E uh SDG dropper post. Yeah. Like a really good name brand stuff. Yeah, all name, uh good year tires. So the reason I brought it up is because when I rode it, I took note of how awful the tires are. So, like now, uh somebody buying a $1,700 uh bike, those tires are great. They're awesome, but I'm spoiled, you know. I ride much nicer tires and it was noticeable. Like it was noticeably slower compared to the tires that I ride. And so you could argue right there, just yeah, buying new tires, that bike will be faster.
Host - Josh AndersonI was gonna say that, like uh maybe we're gonna talk about this and so I'm sure we'll say this again. But since since we're since it's front and center, let's make sure we hit on it. Like if you're gonna upgrade one thing on your bike, the one thing that actually touches the ground, there's only one thing tire. It's your tires. Yeah, yeah. If you're gonna if you're gonna upgrade anything that'll have the biggest impact on your ride, um if you already have bad ones.
Host - Dane HigginsSo that's the can that's the one thing that I'll say upgrade. Yeah, but it's tricky because like I'll have somebody who buys a bike that's got Maxis, I don't know, minions. Yeah. And then they'll those are good tires. They'll they'll upgrade in their mind to To a better Vittoria tire. Or no, well, yeah. Um no, they'll they'll do like EXO plus sidewall. Or you know what I mean? Like those are gonna be so close you won't notice.
Host - Josh AndersonRight, you know, I mean that might keep you from getting flats better. Yeah. Or give you more flat protection.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, but if you've got a a $1,800 bike with some really lower end tires. Lower end tires that are really just getting you rolling and and and getting you addicted to the sport, but they're not necessarily like where they've spent a lot of money, and you go out and buy like premium tires like some Schwalby radials or the Maxis or Vittorious, you'll definitely see a difference. But if you've already got those, if you even if when you switch from a Maxis to a Vittoria, it's probably it's a small difference. You'll probably go faster, but it it's a very small difference.
Host - Josh AndersonSo okay, so we talked about weight savings, suspension quality, drivetrape efficiency, wheels and tires. Um, overall frame stiffness. That's a tough one because I would say or better designed frame compliance in the higher end. Yeah. What do you think? Well, in the low end, you're gonna get an aluminum frame, in the high end, you're gonna get a carbon frame, and I think they can do different things with carbon to make it flex in different ways that they can't do with aluminum. What do you think?
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, okay. I mean, if you if you say it that way, yeah, you can make a carbon that will give you a smoother, softer ride, but not flex to give that to you.
Host - Josh AndersonSo it's it's flexing the right ways that doesn't take away from your pedaling.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, like it's it's absorbing vibration, so it's not kicking you all over the place, but it's not you're not losing. So, like a an argument would be a steel bike has a really smooth, comfortable ride, but then there's a weight penalty, and it's hard to make steel do what you want, uh, not to flex where you don't want it to. It's gonna flex everywhere, it's gonna flex all over the place. It's maybe comfortable, but you're maybe not gonna get the same precision that you get out of carbon. And so aluminum you can make super stiff. It doesn't flex anywhere, but it's gonna kick you around like a buckboard. And so carbon tends to give you everything.
Host - Josh AndersonYeah. And then some of the intangibles, and I wouldn't say one of these things is an intangible, the final the final category I have here is brakes. You got better brakes, you're gonna break it.
Host - Dane HigginsThat's not gonna make you faster.
Host - Josh AndersonNo, I think it does.
Host - Dane HigginsWell, yeah, it'll let you break later. Less. Yeah, it lets you let you break later in the corner.
Host - Josh AndersonSo like the thing that makes me slow is my my my really poor braking like methodology.
Host - Dane HigginsOkay.
Host - Josh AndersonAnd if I had better brakes, I think I could use them more effectively. And Lacey, my wife, my wife, she was coaching me this weekend. She was riding behind me on one of our rides. We've been we've been doing some mapping rides where we're mapping some of the trails in our local area. She was riding behind me, and and after about an hour, she was like, Jesus Christ, will you get out of the way? She's like, she's like, every time you pedal, I think this is a quote from Ben Chandler. So Ben Chandler, who owns Ben's Bikes in Tucson, Arizona, he gets, he gets, I don't know if he heard it from somewhere else, but as far as I know, he he came up with this, he gets credit for this. But it's his quote. He says, Every time you pedal, you're making a deposit into the bank.
Host - Dane HigginsOkay.
Host - Josh AndersonAnd every time you touch your brakes, you're making a withdrawal. Yeah. So don't fucking withdraw your money. Don't go into debt. Don't go into debt. So like stay off your brakes, stay off your brakes. So she was like, she's like, I've never ridden with someone that loses momentum more than you. You got like free speed, and you're just scrubbing it at every every chance you get. And I'm like, okay, I gotta get off my brakes.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah. I I you know my old team. No brakes. No brakes. Yeah. And people used to joke, Oh, how can you ride a bike if you've got no brakes? And we're like, no, we just try not to use them. So and that was the truth, you know, the faster you I mean, you're true. That's a really good, that's good uh good uh advice, you know. Yeah, kudos to Ben over at Ben's Bikes. Yeah, we used to go on rides where we would count how many times we pulled our brakes, and then at the end of the night, you know, there'd be three or four of us just kind of racing around practicing, not at not at any particular race, but just trying to be fast. And uh we would count that was one of our games, you know.
Host - Josh AndersonI was actually thinking as I was out riding, and I think one of the things I've done that I'm really proud of is I've moved my dominant brake to be my front brake.
Host - Dane HigginsOh, okay.
Host - Josh AndersonIt used to be my back brake, and I think most beginner riders, your back brake is your dominant. So now my front brake is my dominant. So I'm like, yes, yeah, I'm getting there. Let's have to use it less. Yeah. Um, but I was wondering if there was some type of kinematic um telemetry that I could hook up and like like capture and record how many times I'm hitting my brake.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, I can't remember what the there's a a data capture device that you put on your brakes. Yeah. Um, I can't remember what it's called, but it it does all that. It records your brakes and how much braking power you use.
Host - Josh AndersonWe're gonna have to look that up because I would love to do that to help because I need something to train me.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah.
Host - Josh AndersonBecause I've done a hundred rides where I've tried to like change it and I'm I've switched to my front brake being the dominant. I'm proud of myself.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah. But I got it. I want to say last year uh Pink Bike did a brake shootout. Yeah. And they used that. It may have been vital. I get them mixed up from time to time. Okay. But then they took all the data to actually see it, uh, it was giving them a lot of good info on like what brakes because it was separating the feel that the rider was getting and actually putting down like so that was really kind of cool because one of the problems when people review products is that sometimes you're just getting their interpretation and of what they feel. Yeah, and everyone's got a different vibe. Yeah, exactly. And then, you know, one of the problems with you know how things feel is I go back to, you know, one of the customers who bought a new suspension from me and came in and said they felt it like it was slower and it ended up being faster because it was so controlled, they didn't feel out of control. So their feel was they were going slower. But actually faster. But the the fork was just doing much more work and they well.
Host - Josh AndersonThe funny thing is, is I'm going through and trying to get as a as a better rider. My wife, like we ride the same trails, probably just like everybody, the ones that are closest to your house you ride the most.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah.
Host - Josh AndersonSo I've got some right outside my back door, and I ride them all the time. And it's it's a lot of trails. We actually mapped it. It's it's approaching a hundred miles of trail, so it's a lot of trails. Oh, a lot of it's a lot of trail. Um, maybe maybe I'm exaggerating a little bit there. Maybe it's 70, but it's a lot of trail.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah.
Host - Josh AndersonUm, anyways, I'm getting PRs a lot. Nice. And so, but I don't feel like I'm faster. So maybe my braking is actually working. Yeah.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah.
Host - Josh AndersonAnd I'm just still not at Lacey's level, but I'm but for Josh, if you compare Josh to Josh, you're just improving something. I'm getting better. Yeah. That's cool. So I'm so I'm getting lots of like every ride I go out, I'm getting PRs. That's awesome. Uh yeah, feels good. Sometimes it makes me want Strava, just so I have PRs. You have PRs. All right. And I'm not fighting against any, I'm not trying to get crowns or anything like that. I'm not fighting about I'm not racing anyone but me.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah. Yeah.
Host - Josh AndersonJust racing Josh.
Host - Dane HigginsI I just remember when I got a computer uh a long time ago um and put it on my bike. This is before Garmin and GPS. Yeah. We had a little sensor on our wheel and stuff. And just going out and then looking at it and being like, that's it. That's as fast as I'm going. Like it feels way faster. I'm going 40. It only says 36. And then I'm like, I can't go on a group ride that's like averaging 20 miles an hour when I'm doing 14. You know, and like, and then I got rid of the computer because I'm like, I don't want to know how slow I am.
Host - Josh AndersonI need to commend you. Uh-huh. Maybe you didn't even pick up on it. Nope. But you said a long time ago I got a computer instead of back in the day. I know.
Host - Dane HigginsI don't want, I don't want to get our listeners drunk. Like they're going to be so lit by half the episode.
Host - Josh AndersonSo, so you know, Dan gave a good perspective, and then we went through weight savings, suspension quality, drivetrain efficiency, wheel tire performance, uh stiffness uh of the frame and and the uh the way that it's not just stiffness, but the way that they can construct the frame to move in the right ways and not the wrong ways, and then your brakes, yeah, better brakes. We believe that all those things get better as you go up in price, and that actually does make you faster. That's our argument for.
Host - Dane HigginsThere's one that you forgot.
Host - Josh AndersonOh, what's that?
Host - Dane HigginsAnd it's not the price of the bike. Oh, maybe this wouldn't be in that category then.
Host - Josh AndersonNo, this is about ten thousand dollar bikes.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, okay. I'll save this one. I won't mention it now. Okay. Because it's actually not the bike. So but it makes you faster. Yeah, I would so so let's save it for when we're against, because I think it's a better against.
Host - Josh AndersonOkay.
Host - Dane HigginsOkay.
Host - Josh AndersonAnd it might be what I'm thinking too. Nope. No, okay. So we have two different ones.
The Case Against Buying Speed
Host - Josh AndersonYeah. Okay, we have two, we have two different ones. Yep, okay. All right, so now we're gonna argue against it. Okay, all right. Uh you want to start or you want me to start?
Host - Dane HigginsI'll start with just kind of general philosophy is like, you know, you can you can take a pro and put them on almost any bike, and they're gonna be fast, you know. So there's a certain level that the athlete or the person on the bike are just doing, and you it doesn't really matter uh too much uh whether the bike is faster or not. And then not always it's not always the equipment, but the combination of what you're doing. So like, you know, maybe you have a lower price bike, like you said, but you've upgraded the tires and wheels, yeah. You know, or so you've moved your money to the places that it makes sense, so you're you're bang for the buck, you know. And so spending more doesn't always get you a faster bike, sometimes it just gets you a prettier bike.
Host - Josh AndersonSo I um so so this is similar. Yeah. My my first topic here is what I call the diminishing return curve. Okay, all right. So if you go from a $250 to a thousand dollar bike, there is a giant difference in performance between those two levels. Yes. And then if you go from a thousand dollar to a four thousand dollar bike, again, a giant difference in performance.
Host - Dane HigginsYep.
Host - Josh AndersonBut as you go from four thousand to five thousand to six thousand up to ten or fifteen or whatever, the the performance improvement curve slows down. It's exponential, we call it. The cost is exponential. Yeah, so the so the you so you you you get a ton of performance from two fifty to a thousand, a ton of performance from a thousand to four thousand, but from four thousand to ten thousand, you get performance change, but it's little.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah. Yeah.
Host - Josh AndersonIs that fair?
Host - Dane HigginsAbsolutely. Yeah. And uh we were talking again about that Norco, you know, as $17.99. Uh I didn't weigh it, but that thing's gotta be like 36, 38 pounds. I don't know. It's it's not light, you know. It's a hundred and thirty mil travel bike, so it's not a uh an enduro bike or anything. Yeah, it's like a down country. I if you gave me a grand, I could draw probably five to six pounds easy.
Host - Josh AndersonThat's that thousand to four thousand range, right? You can you is when you're down there, you can make huge changes in huge, yeah, it can make a big difference.
Host - Dane HigginsAnd so like it could, it could it could lose a ton of of of uh weight and be way faster a bike for that's like an amazing bike for a beginner to get into because it's a great frame.
Host - Josh AndersonYep, it's it's good, it's good, good geo, good design. Yeah, they can buy it for 1800 bucks, go out, ride, be like, oh shit, I like this. Sweet. You don't have to buy a brand new bike. Yeah, let's get you some new wheels, let's get you a new fork.
Host - Dane HigginsNow that you can you can slowly upgrade it. The bike sitting behind you is uh um called a pivot talon, which is eleven thousand dollar switch blade.
Host - Josh AndersonThat's that's a special edition.
Host - Dane HigginsYep, yeah. But still, it's that price is actually what that bike goes for. Even without the talent. Even without the the paint job. Um that thing has carbon wheels, it has second from top of line drivetrain, full carbon frame, top of line suspension. That bike to make that lighter. How could you? I I can, trust me. But but how would you but if I dropped a pound on that bike, it'd probably be two grand.
Host - Josh AndersonBut would you lose performance in this case?
Host - Dane HigginsNo, like I could I could drop weight in the saddle, in the the the bar is really light. In the grips, the brakes I can go lighter, stem tires. Uh the cranks are really light, but I can I can make them lighter. But the the cranks that are lighter than that are like six hundred dollars. Yeah. So that's one that's the diminishing return curve. The grips are cheap. The saddle that's lighter than that saddle is $300. So so we're at $900. Yeah. You know, and and we're not at a pound, by the way. We're at probably $150 grams, maybe 200 grams difference, which is half a pound. Tires, another couple hundred bucks, but they won't be as beefy as those. So they'll get lighter, but they won't be beefier. And so then that's the that's the diminishing. That's what you're saying is that bike will not be as confident. It's an enduro trail bike.
Host - Josh AndersonYeah, as you pull weight off, it becomes less comp for its intended use.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah.
Host - Josh AndersonYou're like lightening up stuff where you might want it to be heavy to be like sustainable.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, but the point though is that those are $100 tires. That is a $160 bar. That saddle is $125. So all of those pieces on that are already optimized, and maybe not exotic. You know, they're optimized but not exotic.
Host - Josh AndersonSo to take weight off that, you gotta do exotic. Yeah. And I'll tell folks like I did some analysis on, I wanted to figure out price per pound. So, like, how much money would you save? How much do you have to spend to save a pound? Yeah. And I looked at XC bikes, I looked at trailbikes, I looked at Enduro bikes, and I would say some of the numbers were astronomical, but what I'm confident in is it's at least a thousand dollars to save one pound. Yeah, so I think that'll be and I was looking between five thousand and ten thousand was the was the two ratios that I was looking at. That's in the diminishing return curve.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, that that that only works at a certain place from the five to ten five to ten. Yeah.
Host - Josh AndersonIt wouldn't be the same from two fifty to a thousand or a thousand to four thousand.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, like if you had a two hundred fifty dollar bike and you spent a thousand bucks on it, it'd be fantastic.
Host - Josh AndersonYeah, you could you could definitely take some weight off of it. But all right, the next argument here is um someone that has amazing skills and is riding a two thousand dollar bike, yeah, will smoke someone with crappy skills and a ten thousand dollar bike.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, but that gets to my earlier comment about you have to have the person be the same because this isn't a question of whether or not a ten thousand dollar bike is faster, it's will it make you faster?
Host - Josh AndersonYou're right. So my point is with saying that, not that I I I agree with everything you're saying. Yeah. My point is like if you're gonna spend some money and you're not very good, you're bet and you want to get faster, gotcha, you're better off spending that money to improve you before you improve the bike. Good point.
Host - Dane HigginsSo would if you wanted to go faster and you had $10,000 budget, would $5,000 bike and then $5,000 towards lesson and time off work to train and things like that would that be better than a $10,000 bike. Yeah. Yes. And so yeah, there is a point where that is. Now I I just have to counterpoint that to some of us in life don't have time. So like we can't take, yeah, you know, uh, we can't uh be coached and things like that. Um I I did, I was in an atmosphere where um I had a business partner who was a coach. I got to see a lot of athletes come in who are genuinely coaching will get you faster. It will definitely get you faster. It don't it doesn't make up for if you know natural talent, like it it what it does is it gives you an ability to control how good you can be at something. Yeah um, but you still are gonna be limited by whatever your genetics say, you know, they are like and the difference is, you know, what always frustrated me is that I could work my butt off with a coach to to optimize myself, and then some Yahoo that has just natural ability will go smoke me. Like my son. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Who never rides who never rides and goes out and just smokes me, you know, and so those are unfair, you know. And so sometimes resorting to buying your speed is what we do because that's the only option we've hit that wall or you feel like you've hit that wall.
Host - Josh AndersonBut if you got some time and you have the means, yeah, you know, invest in um in skills. The other thing I'll tell you, and I look at myself, and we just talked about a thousand, you know, when you get up to that, because because the bikes that I buy are in the five thousand dollar range. Yeah, maybe I give her, give or take a couple grand, but that that that's where I'm comfortable.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, yeah.
Host - Josh AndersonLike that's where I think the the price, that's where the price breaks, where the value becomes diminishing as you go up.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah.
Host - Josh AndersonUm, for me, uh with some exceptions, like my uh RockShock Ultimate suspensions.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, yeah, yeah.
Host - Josh AndersonBut uh but we talked about a thousand dollars a pound. So take a look at me, Dane. Okay, I can counterpoint this. I am sixty thousand dollars overweight. Damn, I'll never put it that way. I should just focus on losing sixty thousand dollars of weight. Could you imagine that weight?
Host - Dane HigginsLike you just invented a new Jenny Craig. Like if you had to owe a thousand bucks for a pound overweight you were, like people would be losing weight left in rocks.
Host - Josh AndersonAnd it's so I had a buddy, and I won't say his name because he'll be embarrassed, but he was a really big guy, uh-huh. Like 350, maybe 325. And now he's about 175. Damn. And you know him, I won't say I'll tell you after the podcast, but um, but he has the power of a 325-pound man in 175-pound body. Wow. And he is just a machine. Yeah, yeah. Just a machine. Yeah. He, you know, he what what is that? 150 pounds that he lost? Yeah. So 150,000 worth of bike upgrades, he lost, right? So if you can like shed some pounds off your body, yes, it's gonna make you faster.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah. Now do you want to hear my my sales shop sales guy uh answer to that?
Host - Josh AndersonI'm sure you have one.
Host - Dane HigginsI do because because in in this industry, when we're trying to sell a bike and and tell people why one bike is better and why it costs more, weight is always an issue. And I can't tell you how many people are like, oh, it's four pounds lighter, or I can take a poop and lose four pounds. You know, I say that all the time. Yeah. And so um what I tell people, and this is true, uh, is you every day you get out of bed, you are lifting weights. And you are getting out of your bed, you're going and brushing your teeth. No, I'm no, I'm not kidding. You're lifting 200.
Host - Josh AndersonEvery time I get up, it's a 270 or 260-pound squat.
Host - Dane HigginsYou are, and so the reason that it doesn't feel like you're lifting weights is because you are doing it every day, all day long. Your muscles are used to that. If you lost 10 pounds, you would stop lifting that 10 pounds and you would lose that power over time. And so when you take something like a bicycle or a backpack for camper or uh, you know, backpackers, yeah, um, and you reduce the weight that you're carrying, you get closer to your body's um level. Yes, yeah, level of exercise. Okay. And so losing weight is not necessarily what a lot of people kind of joke and and and uh the reason that they still go by a light bike is because the reality is that if you start being lighter, you will start uh car your your muscles will atrophy to your weight. Equalize to that weight. Exactly, yeah. And so that and that now if you go if you're a gym rat, right, and you go to the gym and work out and you're lifting excessive weights all the time, you won't, that's different.
Host - Josh AndersonOr if you're riding all the time, like my buddy.
Host - Dane HigginsYes, exactly.
Host - Josh AndersonHe's never stopped riding, so he's still putting that same power down.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, but guaranteed, if you were to strap on an extra 150 pounds and he had to get out of bed every morning, he would struggle. He wouldn't be able to do it because his body has adjusted to the current weight. And so losing weight, yes, is great. Like if you can lose weight, you will automatically start to get faster. It'd be faster. Uh, especially if you can do it in a healthy. Healthy but but fast way.
Host - Josh AndersonYeah. Better living through chemistry.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah. Just Manjaro. The problem is, yeah.
Host - Josh AndersonOh my God.
Host - Dane HigginsAre you getting paid for them? Don't say that shit if we're not getting some. I at least want some Manjaro. I don't even know what that stuff is. What is it? What do they call it?
Host - Josh AndersonA GLP GLP T1, yeah, or GLP one, yeah.
Host - Dane HigginsI don't know what they are.
Host - Josh AndersonYeah, I took them for a bit and worked, and then I cleaned it all back.
Host - Dane HigginsI'd put mute on when the commercials come on. So anyway, so so when it comes to the weight of the bike, yeah, like you can get a lighter weight bike. Yes, you can take a poop and be lighter than that difference. Yeah. Um, but I I would say the But it's always there. Yeah.
Host - Josh AndersonAnd some and you can't control your poops as much as you think you can. No, no. I've tried. Yeah.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah. Like, especially right before a ride. I've tried really hard to get that poop out, but whatever, whatever reason, it's halfway into
Forced Commando And The Shit Kit
Host - Dane Higginsthe ride that it wants to come out. And I don't understand.
Host - Josh AndersonSo I'm gonna do another tangent. Is that okay? Oh, yeah, go ahead. Okay. So I have a Strava ride that was named this weekend. Okay. That was named Forced Commando. Okay. So Forced Commando. Oh my gosh. So I'm riding with Lacey on one of the commands. We already know what this is about. I'm riding with Lacey on one of our mapping rides. Yeah. We get like four miles in the ride, and like things are not okay. And I'm like bubble guts. Yeah. And I'm like, Lacey, things are not okay. Yeah. Like, I gotta go out into the desert. I've never done this before. Yeah. So I get out into the desert. I think I'm far enough off the road. Turns out I'm not. Stripped down, butt naked from the waist down. Why? Because I don't have a choice. You can't just squat. Again, forced commando. Oh, gotcha. Okay. Okay. I need I need some cleanup. Gotcha. And I don't know what my cleanup on aisle says. I need cleanup. So we call this the event, quote unquote. And just just the most I've never done this before. I'm proud of myself because I I I I went to the bathroom like someone from Africa would. Okay. It was I'm not sure what that means. Without a toilet, just standing. I mean, they there's toilets in Africa. Squatting. Okay, I shouldn't say Africa. Okay. All right. Like a like a hunter with no. All over the country. All over the continent. Yeah, fair. Fair. Okay. Just to cut to Chase, I had explosive diarrhea in the desert. Did you have Taco Bell? No. I had I had fasted the day before and then started eating, and that always messes my digestion up. And uh so I was out there for quite some time. Lacey's like riding up the road, coming back down, riding up the road, coming back down. I see people like riding their bikes down, looking over at me, like, what the hell's that guy doing butt naked in the in the desert? Were you reflecting light with your white ass? I'm sure I was. I'm sure I was. So um, long story short, I buried my underwear in the desert. Oh, yeah.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah.
Host - Josh AndersonAnd uh I got back on. So we're four miles into like a 24-mile ride, 23 mile ride. And I'm like, I'm like, do I turn around? And I'm like, nah, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna risk it. Yeah. And so and I had a plan, I had a game plan though. If I had another event, quote unquote, I was gonna cut the sleeves off my shirt and use those because I couldn't like go back bare ass. But uh yeah, so I rode 19 miles commando for forced commando. So uh you're a rookie, I'll tell you right now. You're supposed to use your socks, yeah.
Host - Dane HigginsSo gloves, I I can tell you the place where there's a pair of gloves on Mount Lemon, yeah, and I can tell you where there's a pair of socks on Sweetwater Trail. Here, here's what I'll tell you. Like, but here's wait, here's the deal. Shout out to Justin, because Justin uh taught me the shit pack. So and yes, this is a good PSA. This is uh everyone needs to build one of these. It is amazing. So he takes a Ziploc and he puts baby wipes, you know, that would have been so awesome. That would have been so awesome, right? Then he takes a bigger ziplock, puts that ziplock into it, and in the bigger one with that other ziplock with the baby lock baby baby wipes, he puts in rolled toy pip toilet paper. Yeah. And then a rubber glove.
Host - Josh AndersonOh god, see that would have been all I needed.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, and then you just put that into your pack. It doesn't take up any space, and then what happens is when you have an event. Now, granted, if you already if something happens and you make a mess, you gotta deal with that. But this is for when you had that cup of coffee before the ride, and it just two miles into the ride, you're like, damn it, you know, like and you gotta go find a bush, yeah, you know. And uh it is great because you can basically take the you know the toilet paper.
Host - Josh AndersonI don't I really don't think we need to explain the benefit of this.
Host - Dane HigginsI think everybody gets it. But the reason that I didn't know this, because he doesn't like to leave stuff, and so that's why he's got two exactly. So the second zip lock is for your old toilet paper. Yeah. And I'm like, wow, I don't do that. I'll bury it because it's you know, I don't know. I maybe I don't care or I feel like it's gonna go somewhere. But um, but anyway, like it I have one now all the time. Like it's the best. I don't always have the glove, you know, because I don't always have rubber gloves around.
Host - Josh AndersonBut uh so what do I tell you? Like, why didn't they use my gloves? Why didn't you use my socks? Yeah. The volume.
Host - Dane HigginsOkay, we should talk about something. You may have to cut this out because at this point, people aren't like throwing up in their mouths at this point. Like, I don't know what's going on. No, no, no, you don't even have to say that.
Host - Josh AndersonWe can just go on. What were we talking about? So we'll go on, but I will tell you. You don't need to say that word anymore. My underwear is still in the desert.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, that's it's not, it's in some animal's stomach.
Host - Josh AndersonWe'll find out. But I know exactly where it is, and I have a plan on Friday that I'm gonna get. I'm gonna go retrieve it because I don't want to leave, I don't want to leave it in the desert after. Can you put a little cross out there? Herein lies the herein lies Josh's event. Site of Josh Anderson's event. I think that would be great. It would be funny. But um, but yeah, I'm gonna go out on Friday and feel lucky that it's had a week of desert sun to like kill all the bad stuff. And it'll just be it'll just be dust by it won't be there.
Host - Dane HigginsIt's got some drug off. We'll see. Here's some animal that's like, I love this.
Host - Josh AndersonI am pretty sure it's still gonna be there. We'll we'll report back and let you guys know. We'll see. Was the event recovered or not?
Host - Dane HigginsAll right.
Host - Josh AndersonTwo Josh uh tangents.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, that was that was a big one.
Host - Josh AndersonAll right, so so that is our
Electronics, Marketing, And Real Gains
Host - Josh Andersonand the gross one. Well, other arguments against um uh more so you tell me what you think about this. More complex to maintain higher end components.
Host - Dane HigginsUh you know, ultimately it boils down to what your goals are. If your goal is to be faster, um you can buy some speed. You can.
Host - Josh AndersonIs it more complex to maintain higher end components? That's a that's an argument we're making the argument against. I don't think so. So is it more complex to maintain a electronic drivetrain versus a a uh mechanical drivetrain?
Host - Dane HigginsTechnically, no. But it's it's less less maintenance, it's more accurate. So that's not a good example. I'm trying to think of forks in suspension.
Host - Josh AndersonTo me it is, because like when it goes out, like I'm dealing with an electrical issue on my van right now that's like a minor thing, but it's like the end of the fucking world. And if and if I didn't have these uh electronic digital shit, yeah, my van would be up and running now.
Host - Dane HigginsI think it I think the difference is in the terminology of maintain versus fix. So maintaining an electrical system, uh like an electric uh drivetrain is easier. Is easier. Yep. Uh if you have something and it's not working, could be could be the troubleshooting shooting can be harder because it's not something you can sometimes see.
Host - Josh AndersonSometimes you need a f firmware update, special software, special diagnostic tool.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, and they would stop the derailer would stop working. So you can't necessarily see that and and fix it on the trail. Yeah. And so, but um, it's tough because I'll give you an example. Cheap wheels tend to have comb, cup and cone bearings. Those are awful. Like seal cartridge bearings on nicer wheels are much better, you know? And so this is a quiet slam torch a mano, by the way, just for the record. No, because we just had a different wheel in. It's it's towards lower cost. Okay. Uh, and and um we just had a wheel in today, which is why I brought it up. It's fresh in my mind that I'm thinking this customer is one of those commuters that is on their bike all the time, and his bike has the cheapest hubs in it. And it's like, man, that bike is getting ridden way more than any of my bikes. Yep. You know, and my bikes have, you know, $10 to $20 bearings in each, you know, wheel. And that wheel was like $35, you know. Um, and so uh he he's riding way more than me. So that's kind of the weird part about that. I don't know if it's a maintenance thing. I think your diminishing returns is the biggest thing against him. Like, can you get the same experience at a lower price lower price? Can you be just as fast? So um I would say that on like uh a good example would be Fox, like the Kashima coding is not gonna make you faster. I I I don't care. Fox is gonna be mad, maybe they'll call me, but that Kashima is not gonna make you faster. I think Geordie's texting you already, yeah, right. Yeah. But the what's crazy is the amount of people that come in here and they want that Kashima because it does give you a marginal difference in performance, it's so small, I don't think it's a an issue. So that's where you could really save a lot of money, you know. Now they do make a fork called a performance elite, which is the same damper, same chassis. Everything but the cashima just doesn't, it's a little bit less. So you could argue that that's the bang for the buck version, you know. Um and so in wheels, like going carbon versus a good aluminum, right? Do you need that? Uh, most carbon wheels are not actually lighter than a good set of aluminums, which people don't understand. They don't know that, yeah. And I sell a lot of carbon wheels really because truthfully they're a little more durable.
Host - Josh AndersonUh they which is people don't understand that either.
Host - Dane HigginsThey don't understand that at all. And they're um way more compliant, they feel better.
Host - Josh AndersonYeah, and so on a stiffer in the right places, compliant in the right place.
Host - Dane HigginsI remember building a one of the lightest hardtails that we could build for a customer. He wanted he had a a goal of a weight of 19 pounds. We had to build him this bike, and I went through, and at the time, um the the uh DT Swiss was making these really light carbon wheels, and they were I think the 1500s or 1501s. Uh back then. They were uh sorry, no, DT Swiss wasn't making a carbon wheel, they were making these 1500 aluminums, which was their lightest wheel, had a super light, like it was lighter than the NV carbons, and so the customer saved a ton of money by getting those lighter weight, and we hit his his weight numbers. Yeah. So so yeah, like you don't always have to spend 10 grand to get the faster bike. So uh you just have to kind of know what's gonna matter and what won't.
Host - Josh AndersonYeah. So I got two more two more arguments uh against.
Host - Dane HigginsOkay.
Host - Josh AndersonFirst one is depreciation. Higher end bikes lose value faster than lower end bikes.
Host - Dane HigginsOoh. What do you think? I think it's true as a percentage. I'm gonna say it's true. I don't define it that way. Uh what I find is that there's more people willing to spend at a lower price point, so it's easier to sell lower price bikes.
Host - Josh AndersonBut that's supply and demand. I I it is, and that's why it's kind of weird. And that's that's the price. Yeah. So then it that makes my argument.
Host - Dane HigginsWell, what what it means is that there's less people willing to spend 20% off of a of a ten thousand dollar bike, which would be eight thousand, yeah, versus people willing to spend, you know, twenty percent spent off of a five thousand dollar bike. Right. And and I get that, but it doesn't mean they depreciate. That's the market value. They were both they were both the same discount, right? The difference is there's ten people that want the ten thousand the eight thousand dollar bike, and there's a hundred people. That's supply yeah, supply and demand. And so it's easier to sell. Yes.
Host - Josh AndersonSo that's depreciation.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah. Yeah. I don't know. Is that depreciation? Yeah. I mean it's market value. I just think it's a different demographic. Every bike that I sell, you know, you know, when I when I sell these bikes that I have, I dumb them down. So I put all the pimped out stuff on them while I'm riding it, then I pull it off, I put the stock stuff back on so that I can lower the price and sell it at a lower price. Because I just know it will sell faster.
Host - Josh AndersonSo But you you're making my argument. You think you're not, but you actually are.
Host - Dane HigginsI just don't call it like they devalue.
Host - Josh AndersonYeah, so it's easier to sell a used lower price bike for closer to the what you paid for it than it is for a high-end bike. Yes. So that's exactly what I said. Just said a different way.
Host - Dane HigginsIt's faster, not easier.
Host - Josh AndersonWell, I would I would quantify I would put faster in the category of easier. Yeah. Because if it sits there for six months, like you you just showed me a bike that's been sitting in the shop for a year, yeah. I'm sure that guy's pretty bummed.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, that bike is price too high. Yeah. And that that is a good example of that bike is a a victim of the company that made it.
Host - Josh AndersonYeah, we don't need to go into that. So okay. The final thing I have is uh what I'll call liability. Value liability. Ooh, what's that? So I'm just making up that term. Okay. I like it though. It sounds good. Value liability.
Host - Dane HigginsIt kind of makes me scared but happy at the same time. You should be scared. Yeah.
Host - Josh AndersonSo if I have if I have a $2,000 bike, uh-huh. Like I've got that uh what's the one, the norco that you just showed.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, yeah, yeah.
Host - Josh AndersonAnd I crash it.
Host - Dane HigginsYes.
Host - Josh AndersonI'm like, uh, bummer.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah.
Host - Josh AndersonIf I got a $10,000 bike and I crash it, I'm like, fuck.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah.
Host - Josh AndersonDamn it. Yes. So that's what I mean by value liability. Yeah. Like, it is way more of a psychological screw and probably a cost to fix if I crash a high-end bike versus a versus a low-end bike. Okay. Yeah. Same with the cheap car versus expensive car. You get a defender better and a cheap car like, eh, yeah. Get some get some desert pinstripes. Yep. Probably for our listeners, we should tell them what desert pinstripes is.
Host - Dane HigginsIt's when you go next to all the cactus and sharp stuff out here and it scratches your car. If you drive a dirt road out here, the the branches just scratch your car like crazy.
Host - Josh AndersonYeah. So all of us that own trucks, that mountain bike, we have desert pinstripes. Yep. Yeah. Um, okay, so the next category you had that would so we've made the argument for, made the argument against. The next category had is what you actually feel. And what I was thinking was like, you sell a lot of like high-end bikes, you sell a lot of upgrades for bikes. Like, what do your customers report back? Like, what do you hear? So you hear like people super excited about what they bought. Some of it's confirmation bias, and they want to like justify their purchase in their mind. But like, what is what is your general feeling about how your employees feel or your customers feel when they buy something expensive and put it on their bike or buy an expensive bike?
Host - Dane HigginsSo the crazy part about this business is nobody's the same, everybody's different, and they all have different priorities. And so this is this was the fun part of this conversation in the shop because we kept talking about there was always an example that didn't fit the norm, right? There was that commuter the outliers. Yeah, the commuter who who did spend and get a nice commuter bike and not not like you know tear it up. Um, there is the mountain biker who didn't spend 10 grand and won the Enduro race, you know. So like, so like there's always those exceptions. I think um, you know, customer-wise, I do see a lot of people who will kind of get hung up on the marketing of things. So like Kashima, Kashima's gorgeous. When you look at a bike with Kashima fork and shock and and dropper post, and then you find out you can put Kashima pedals on it and get some Kashima hubs for it, and like, you know what I mean? Like go to crazy. Yeah, it's it's fun, it's but in lies the marketing. You know that when you watch a race, the fastest people in the world have picked that, or at least are riding it. So picked is not a bad, it's not a good one. Well, I mean it's a perfect example.
Host - Josh AndersonI came in today and I said, Hey, Ben, have you guys got those new Wolf Tooth barns in? Yes. Because eight guys on the World Cup are are riding them. They're on order, by the way. So he told me they weren't, and then he was gonna put them on order for. He's gonna get some in. I'm hoping I can get them by the time we go to Angel Fire because I want to do a couple laps and just feel what they feel like and maybe swap them out so other people can try them too. Yes, yeah, see if it really is a big bill.
Host - Dane HigginsBut you're doing it because the racers are doing it.
Host - Josh AndersonAnd the marketing. Yep, yep, exactly. And and I would say never in a million fucking years would I have put Barns on my mountain bike.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah. Never. And what's crazy about that, uh that particular thing, is it's not marketing. That is racers trying to come up with solutions and actually doing it with random pieces of plastic. Right. That's Wolftooth just went, Huh, there's an opportunity. They're doing that, and and we can we got a machine shop, we'll just make some of those. Yeah. And and so they they are are capitalizing, capitalizing on it. Good for them. But like uh Kashima, or if you want to get into the buttercups, right, is a good example. Um, in in uh Rock Shock uh, or if we're talking about, oh man, there's so many things. Maxis. Maxis is a great example. Maxis makes a great tire, however, they are not popular because they're necessarily the first choice or people bought them. It's because they're almost every single bike that you buy comes with them. And so it's it's it's the um drug rep uh mentality.
Host - Josh AndersonYeah, so hate hate other hate competing but tire brands. If you want to be more popular, dump your OEM price.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, you gotta get 20%. You gotta get into the OE market because it's that uh familiarity and people buying what they just had and not wanting to try something different.
Host - Josh AndersonYou don't want to mess with that.
Host - Dane HigginsNo, uh-uh. You're afraid to. Like, I don't want to experiment with $200, you know. Like that's not a place that I want to play with. I'll try different grips for $40, you know. Yes, but uh I may even try a saddle, you know, or some pedals for a hundred bucks, but I don't want to try it for 200 bucks in in tires.
Host - Josh AndersonAnd so so this is why Mike has a set of Schwabby tires on his bike. Yes, because I try I did the experiment. Yep. It was like, yeah, fuck that. You didn't like them. Two road rides took them off, said, Hey, I got these. I don't know what I'm gonna do with them. You want them? Mike's like, yeah, I'll take them.
Host - Dane HigginsAnd now I have three bikes with them on. So that's you're digging them. Yeah, I like them. I I love my Vittoria, and we've talked about that. I ride Maxis, I ride Schwabby. I don't necessarily like the Schwabies to where I'm the marketing is gotten to me to where I want to try them. So the marketing worked. I want to try them and then to t decide.
Host - Josh AndersonBut you have three of them, you have three on your bike?
Host - Dane HigginsThree different bikes. One is our uh special three different bikes with Schwabies on. Yep, yeah.
Host - Josh AndersonSo you've done trying them at this point.
Host - Dane HigginsWell, yeah, but um I can't I keep rotating bikes, so I haven't really determined well if you stop buying bikes like in the last week, you bought two. I got those I got those stupid continentals on the downhill bike, and uh I'm not a fan of them. On a downhill bike, they ride fine. There's nothing wrong with those tires, and people love those tires. So that's another one that's getting a lot of uh a lot of hype. So they're so basically uh, you know, back to your point.
Host - Josh AndersonWell the question is is like how do your customers feel when they buy high-end stuff? Are they coming back like on average?
Host - Dane HigginsWhat do you feel?
Host - Josh AndersonWhat do you mean?
Host - Dane HigginsSo we get customers that come in and you identify that they like value, and so they're the ones that you really show the value of a product. Yeah. They're gonna maybe buy a Fox Performance Elite that has the best damper, same chassis, but doesn't have the caching. Save 200 bucks and they save a few hundred bucks, yeah. Um, then you have the people that come in and they want the latest and greatest, and they want it now. And that that customer is a real customer who comes in and they're like, they just heard about this brand new bike, and they want it now. They want to be the first one on the block with it. Early adopters, yeah. Early adopters. Money's usually not their barrier. Uh time is, and so then you you give them a different product, right? Yeah, yeah. They're gonna get a different product. You give them their time. The bang for the buck guys are coming in and you're showing them last year's bike that's on sale because they're more worried about hey, I can get that was the best stuff last year. I'll ride that and I'll save money, you know? Yeah, yeah. And then you have uh man, I don't even know what to call the other category, which are the I I I'm gonna say this and it's the wrong way to say it, but I'm just saying it because I don't care. But like the cheap asses, the ones that won't they and and and cheap ass doesn't mean they're a bad thing, it just means that they will not even spend money on your theirselves, you know. Like, and you're like, look, man, you deserve this. You are riding more than me. You're you you deserve this product because you really are riding way more than other people that get this product, and you should have this product.
Host - Josh AndersonNo, give me the $20 CST tires. That's what I want. Yes.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah. Uh yeah. I I those people drive me nuts because it's like they're not necessarily going for the value. They're not going for their early adoption, they're not going for the best stuff. They are reluctant to spend any money on themselves. And and and to a detriment to where they're like riding drivetrains that are clapped out. I have a man, I have customers that'll come in and I'm like, you need a whole drivetrain. Well, I'll just put a chain on. It's gonna get worse. Uh, just just leave it the way it is. And I'm like, but you're gonna not have as good of experience, you know, and they're They're would just don't want to spend the money. And most cases, they really deserve it. They're riding the most, they're doing the most experience on the bike, but they just do not want to spend the money.
Host - Josh AndersonAnd what you don't know is like some of those people probably just don't have the money. And some of the people have it, but they're just cheap asses.
Host - Dane HigginsI would say the cheap ass category is not the ones that don't have the money. I usually will just say those people are just broke. Broke people are like, give me the best I can afford. Yeah. Broke riders are the ones that I try and get all the used stuff. Yeah. The hand-me-downs, things like that too, because I'm trying to get their budget covered. The cheap asses are the ones that pulled up in the Mercedes, but will not spend the money. So what can just you're definitely close to a cheap ass. See, I think. Is that what you're gonna ask?
Host - Josh AndersonNo, I was gonna ask you, like, where am I?
Host - Dane HigginsYeah.
Host - Josh AndersonI feel like I'm a budget.
Host - Dane HigginsYou're you're a so it's weird. We were talking about this.
Host - Josh AndersonLook at all the bikes that I have. I know, but that $5,000 route. Right.
Host - Dane HigginsBut you're like, I don't need any more than Dior, but you ride way past that. Like you just on any bikes. I know, but you could I have XT and like you refuse to do electronics. Yes, and you you would benefit from them, and I think you deserve them. But you won't do them. Even a Shimano product, you won't do it. But why? I you have the money, you could do it. I could buy it's not about the money.
Host - Josh AndersonI could buy a lot of bikes.
Host - Dane HigginsAnd it's not necessarily a bang for the buck thing. It's a really like you just refuse to admit electronics. I don't know what it is, you know. I think you need to try them before you poo-poo them. I think that's fair. And I have ridden a handful of uh electronic drive trucks. Like you bought $200 worth of Schwabies just to try them. Yeah, no problem. So let's get you some XT wireless, just try it. And if you don't like it, stick it on Lacey's bike. It's not even about me selling you stuff.
Host - Josh AndersonIt's see the Shimano stuff, I'll try. I know. It's I think the reason why mechanical is that so so the reason why mechanical versus is that I I'm not gonna use the shram stuff.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah.
Host - Josh AndersonWe've already established that. We don't need to.
Host - Dane HigginsI'm gonna put shram on your bike and make you ride it. Fuck you. And then and then if you pay for it, I'll ride it. Okay. I'll do it. I'm done. Done.
Host - Josh AndersonI'll pick a bike and put it in.
Host - Dane HigginsYou pay for it, I'll ride it.
Host - Josh AndersonI'll ride anything you want to put on my bike, Dave.
Host - Dane HigginsAnd and the key is because then you I have to be honest about my report. I can't be biased. Yes. I will do that. Because then you can actually say, I didn't like it for this reason. But right now you you don't have anything.
Host - Josh AndersonSo yeah, I don't
Where We Would Spend The Money
Host - Josh Andersonhave anything. Uh that's fair. So you put me, I I view myself as budget with some exceptions, and and now we're getting into the fourth topic, which is like where would we spend our money?
Host - Dane HigginsYes.
Host - Josh AndersonSo for me, I what I have in my head, and you can you can pressure test this or not.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah.
Host - Josh AndersonI'm not buying the cheapest thing.
Host - Dane HigginsOkay.
Host - Josh AndersonI'm buying where I where I see the best value. Like I have bought many of the bikes I bought have been the pink bike bike of the year for their value test.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, yeah, yeah.
Host - Josh AndersonLike I bought the Vitasmith, I've had a number of those different bikes. So to me, it's like, how can I get the most performance for the least amount of money? Okay. That's what I care about. And so that's what forms it. But there are some exceptions. If I see something that performance-wise is like way better, and you've challenged me in a lot of areas.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah.
Host - Josh AndersonYou challenged me in suspension.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah.
Host - Josh AndersonUh when I had that Zab on the mountain bike that I or on the e-bike that you sold me, yeah, I I didn't like it. Yeah. And I said, I want to get rid of this. And you said, Let me upgrade it.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah.
Host - Josh AndersonAnd so I I think I spent 500 bucks for you to upgrade it. It was that's a that was that was an expensive upgrade. And then I wrote it and I was like, oh shit. Yeah. This is the most best thing ever. And now I've got that on all my bikes. The ultimate version of the fork on all my bikes.
Host - Dane HigginsYou saw the difference.
Host - Josh AndersonI felt the difference. The second thing, and this is coming around to where I'm gonna be upgrading my bike soon. Was um we put together a set of carbon wheels with i-9 hubs for my cross-country bike.
Host - Dane HigginsYep. Yeah. Holy shit. Yep. Yeah.
Host - Josh AndersonOh my god.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah.
Host - Josh AndersonI don't have that on any other bike, and I can definitely feel the difference. Yeah. That's for me, that's a little that chokes me a bit because that's a really expensive upgrade.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, that's it's as those are as much as that Norco we've been talking about. Just the wheels. Just the wheels are the same price as that Narco or more. So Yeah.
Host - Josh AndersonSo I've been I'm hunting for the right deal, and and we talked about this in previous podcasts. If you hang around Dane long enough with a with a with a pocket full of money, yeah, eventually a deal will pop up.
Host - Dane HigginsYep, yeah. I'll find you a deal.
Host - Josh AndersonIt's true.
Host - Dane HigginsIt's very true.
Host - Josh AndersonSo that's where I'm at. I'm never gonna buy a $10,000 or $15,000 bike based on today's prices. Yeah. In the future, who knows? Because prices are gonna change. I'm gonna look for, I I feel my mind, I'm a value. You may see me as a cheap ass, but in my mind, I'm a value buyer. And but I will make exceptions if I find excellence. And I found excellence in that Rock Shock Ultimate Suspension.
Host - Dane HigginsOkay. So where are you at? Okay. First of all, except for bikes, I am the biggest cheap ass. I I drive, I deal with cracks in my windshield and my car.
Host - Josh AndersonUm I his phone, my physical phone came out before my oldest son is born.
Host - Dane HigginsNot only that, but I have stickers all over it holding it together. Like quite literally holding it together. You can see through the back, you can see the electronics through the back of my phone. Um, you know, I will get the I don't and never buy clothes. I right now I have holes in these pants and like I don't even know it. And I'll bend over at the at the house, and my wife's like, You wore those to work? And I'm like, Yeah, I'm I'm getting grease and and oil on it. Who cares? Yeah, I am the biggest cheap ass. I I really am. When it comes to bikes, I'm a bad example because I work in a shop.
Host - Josh AndersonSo I but let's say you weren't a bicycle bicycle shop owner, where would you be as a as a I'm a bang for the buck by heart, even as a bike shop owner, I'm a bang for the buck.
Host - Dane HigginsUh the bike shop owner part lets me get the more exotic higher end stuff at cheaper prices. At cheaper prices. And then uh the reason that I have multiple bikes, we just talked about today how I have multiple bikes and I'm all of this. It sounds very bougie, but it's not, you're flipping them all the time. Yeah, not only that, but like I train the guys in the shop to do what's called bike equity, which is in in a bike shop we make very little money. So you when you first start working in a bike shop, you should be taking advantage of the discounts. Sometimes your first bike, you're gonna get that NORCO that's $1,800 retail. You're gonna get it at cost or maybe what they call employee purchase and a little cheaper. Um, and then you're gonna ride it for a year, and then you should be selling it for more than you paid for it. Because it still retained a lot of its value. And and you're paid low enough that you should make a little bit of money, not a lot, but you're still selling it cheaper, and somebody else will get that advantage. Okay, so that's one step of the the bike equity. The next bike that you get, you do that again. And again.
Host - Josh AndersonAnd you upgrade a little bit every single time.
Host - Dane HigginsAnd each time, while you're owning it, you put a little bit better tires on it, or you put a little bit better of this on it. And that way when you go to sell it, you can get a little bit more, or you keep the stuff that you bought and put it on the new bike. So that's bike equity. And I have been doing this so long that I got to where your bike equity bank is pretty full. I can tell you, I remember the first time that I actually bought a top-of-line bike because my bike equity had built up enough to afford it, where I just turned my bikes into another bike, and I remember the day going, Holy crap, I don't need to buy anything else. I've I've just upgraded. I don't need to upgrade this bike, it's already upgraded.
Host - Josh AndersonThis bike is top of the line.
Host - Dane HigginsSo, guess what? I started on the next one, and so then I had an a second bike, and so that'll tell you how long I've been doing this because I'm I'm selling these usually once a year, and so I've now got a not a fleet, but I've got a few bikes.
Host - Josh AndersonIf you would guess, not including the stock of the shop, yeah. How many bikes do you personally own right now?
Host - Dane HigginsOh it's low right now. I've been selling a lot, so I well, I if I don't count the vintage bikes, because the vintage bikes are. I've got my Norco Optic, I got my uh prototype Firebird, I have the Project Bike, which we haven't talked about yet. You got the Phoenix, I've got the Phoenix, um, I've got the Mach 6. Mach 6. Uh, Mach 4.
Host - Josh AndersonYeah, Mach 4 at 6. You got your shuttle, or you got your uh Amped. Amped. You got your you sold the the uh Avinox, right?
Host - Dane HigginsYep, yeah, and so I'm not gonna count my Rocky, which is now Jilly's. Uh well, because it's technically what she's riding. Uh that's five, six, seven.
Host - Josh AndersonYou only have seven bikes right now.
Host - Dane HigginsWell, I I have my e-gravel, eight, my road bike nine. How many bikes are in the garage that you're not counting? I think it's around nine or ten.
Host - Josh AndersonSo that might be an all-time low for the for the Yeah, it's pretty low.
Host - Dane HigginsBut you've you've moved a lot recently. Yeah. Um oh yeah, I got yeah, I forgot there's a switchblade up there. Yeah. Yeah. So there's yeah.
Host - Josh AndersonYeah, and there's probably four or five that you forgot somewhere.
Host - Dane HigginsThat's probably very true. There's a giant sitting back. Here we go. Here we go. But that's a project. Okay, yeah, projects don't count, really.
Host - Josh AndersonYeah.
Host - Dane HigginsSo 15 bikes. Yeah. So when it comes to speed, um, because I did race, there's I was telling the guys that there were some things like on my downhill bikes, I didn't care what cranks were on there. They're just a hunk of metal. Um, I cared about the wheels as far as that I didn't get flats and that they would be durable enough for a downhill race. And my tires were very important. In fact, every race we had a tire sponsor, every race I had fresh tires. So I kept my old tires for like when I was practicing and we were going not racing, but every race I always had a brand new set of tires that were on my bike. I never wanted my tires to to be why I got a DNF or or didn't didn't win. Uh, didn't care about my seat post on a downhill bike, didn't care about my bar. I really just got the bar for comfort or looks. That was about it. Brakes were very important, what brakes we ran, and then suspension was really important. So drivetrain, not as big a deal. Like uh sometimes we ran 105 derailers, which are cheap road derailers. Sometimes we had, you know, a lot of times people were running Saint and really top of line. Most of the time, as long as it didn't pop or skip, that's all we needed. In in downhill bikes, that's totally good. Now in my cross-country race bikes, it was always the lightest.
Host - Josh AndersonSo I was gonna
Downhill Versus XC Speed Priorities
Host - Josh AndersonI was gonna double-click on something because we didn't we didn't talk about it. So and it's you're kind of going on you're going there now. I think weight matters more. Weight doesn't matter as much for gravity bikes.
Host - Dane HigginsNot at all. Yeah. I made some really light bikes, and I would say they're faster.
Host - Josh AndersonSo so if lighter bikes on gravity are faster, why are the World Cup racers adding weight to their bikes?
Host - Dane HigginsIt depends on the course, and it depends on how you're riding. So when I was racing uh the Norba series a long time ago, um You did it. You didn't say back in the day. You didn't say back in the day we're gonna be. I'm not doing it, can't drink on that one. Um, so uh at Norba, we were at Big Bear a lot and one of the courses, West Ridge, that we came down, there was actually an uphill that you had to pedal. And so I built a bike just so that I could do that. I would pass three guys. We had uh 22nd, I want to say it was 20 second separation between us at the start gate. So the beep, beep, beep, beep would go off, and then you'd have to take off, and then it would be 20 seconds in the next guy. I remember one race in particular passing three people on that one section.
Host - Josh AndersonWow.
Host - Dane HigginsUh and so in that race, it was very different. If you go to um uh Sea Otter and watch the downhill there, you look at Nico Malale uh, you know, racing uh 32 super mullet, but it was uh really a light setup with a shorter travel fork.
Host - Josh AndersonThat that that yeah, that course didn't need it.
Host - Dane HigginsIt doesn't need it. So that's different. The World Cup courses nowadays are very gravity and and downhill, and so picking up speed with a heavier bike is becomes more important.
Host - Josh AndersonYou agree that weight matters more where pedaling matters more. So on cross-country bikes, weight's more important.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, uphill. So remember, one of the tests that you were citing was basically strap and weight and and going uphill, that extra weight is just you carrying something up a hill. Yeah, and so that's where it matters more. When you're going downhill, if your weight's real high, like if you have a heavy seat, you know what I mean, which nobody does, but let's say you do, and everything else is below its low, your center of gravity would be off. So all the downhillers that are strapping weight on, it's all under the bottom bracket.
Host - Josh AndersonMakes it more planted.
Host - Dane HigginsYep, exactly. Stop using planted. Um it nah, that's actually maybe a that's a good use of it.
Host - Josh AndersonThat's actually a good use of the word. You taught me, you taught me that that's a good use of it.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, that is a that is probably a more valid use of the word. So um it's not because it's heavier, it's where they put the weight and it keeps it stuck to the ground.
Host - Josh AndersonAll right, man. So have we made it an interesting conversation.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah.
Host - Josh AndersonWell, so does a ten thousand dollar bike make you faster?
Host - Dane HigginsI think it does. And I think it's marginal. And I think once you put money into it, you really mess up the equation. So that would be the last thing that I would add is that if money wasn't an object, would you still buy like if somebody was just giving you stuff and you could pick whatever, I would you I'd pick the top line. Yeah. Like I don't know of anybody who would be like, no, I want Dior. You know what I mean? Like they would be like, I want XTR, you know, and uh or I want XXSL, you know, or whatever, you know, whatever your preference is. And so I think when I'm telling people about bikes, I go, I I ask them to think about that because when you buy a bike, if it's a $2,000 bike, a $5,000 bike, or a $10,000 bike, you are in most cases, I consider that purchase to be a 10-year purchase. Now, that is not the case for a lot of people. A lot of people come in here almost yearly and get different bikes. Yep. Uh, they want the new stuff. I told you those early adopters, the people that want the cutting edge, that really want that that performance difference, and they don't want their equipment holding them back. Absolutely. Just get whatever you need to make sure that you're as fast as you can be. But I have plenty of friends that when they're buying those bikes, that's a 10-year-old.
Host - Josh AndersonIs it 10 or 5? Well, I can I can get behind you at five. I can't get behind you at 10.
Host - Dane HigginsThe only reason that I say 10 is because I was for the longest time helping my friends justify a bike because I would tell them this will last you 10.
Host - Josh AndersonYeah.
Host - Dane HigginsLike it won't wear out in 10.
Host - Josh AndersonFair so the technology and the geometry and stuff might change so much that the you like the the ROI to buy a new one in five or six years makes sense. Yes. But but the but it you won't the product won't wear out in ten years.
Host - Dane HigginsAnd I will tell you that a lot of that sales terminology that I developed was during the 26-inch wheel bikes before 29ers, and that really changed how fast things changed. Because once 29ers started hitting, manufacturers realized if they change the product fast enough, people will want it and they'll want that advantage.
Host - Josh AndersonAnd they'll turn over their products quicker, and that way they'll sell more.
Host - Dane HigginsYes, exactly. More units, more sold. Yep. It's a it's a greedy concept that that's not really greed motivated. It's just how do you grow your business? And uh, but the consumer gets caught up in it and sometimes feels like they need more. Um, we were talking about geometry difference and and where bikes really matter. Uh-huh. I, you know, uh the like like if you bought a used bike, don't buy one after 2020 or something like that. Um, but for me, it really, you know, you can ride a one of these vintage bikes on the wall and still have a great experience and go out and have fun. Uh so I guess what I was saying is when money isn't involved, would you buy that vintage bike? No, you wouldn't, unless it was like nostalgic. But really, when money's not involved, what would you buy? And I tell the customer, you're gonna keep it for 10 years. So don't just buy off a price. Think about what you want and what you're gonna grow into, and then go for that and keep in mind that you're gonna use this for a certain amount of time. And so we've had the same conversation with other customers where we tell them, hey, if you're planning on upgrading, e-bikes is a great example right now. When somebody comes in and they're really trying to figure out should they buy the top line, should they buy the base model, should they get this motor or that motor or how much battery, I if it's their first one, I just tell them this is probably not gonna be your last e-bike. You're probably gonna get another one. This thing's changing so quickly. So if you're okay with that, buy this one and and let price determine so that you can kind of get hooked on it. But if you want to buy the last bike that you're ever gonna buy, buy that one, then don't skimp out on it because you're gonna regret it.
Host - Josh AndersonYep.
Host - Dane HigginsSo all right.
Host - Josh AndersonWell, let's leave. If it's okay with you,
Final Takeaways And Closing Requests
Host - Josh Andersonlet's leave our listeners with some final thoughts. I've got some you probably do.
Host - Dane HigginsOkay, go.
Host - Josh AndersonI I have three final thoughts. Oh is my take.
Host - Dane HigginsOkay.
Host - Josh AndersonUh first and foremost, I want to double down on the most important part of your bike is your tires, my opinion. Okay. So if you love your tires, great. If you don't, get new ones. Yeah. And that's where you should put your money first. That's my take. Okay. Second takeaway I have is $5,000 is a sweet spot for mountain bikes uh of value versus performance. I would argue against. But is my is my take. You get your take in a minute. That's my take. Okay. $5,000 is a sweet spot. Okay. I believe. Third thing is, is who gives a shit what Dane or Josh or anyone says?
Host - Dane HigginsThat's true.
Host - Josh AndersonBuy the shit, whether it's a bike or components, whatever, that you want that will make you happy, that will make you look at your bike and be like, hell yeah. Yeah, yeah. No matter what it is. If it's cheap, if it's expensive, who gives a shit? Yep. Buy the thing that makes you happy and don't listen to us.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah. If you want to paint little stick figures on your bike and that makes you go ride, do it. So tires, five thousand dollars and ignore us. My three takeaways. What are yours? All right. So first counterpoint, five thousand isn't a good number. I would just say that when you're looking at a bike, the low, the cheapest bike and the most expensive bike, don't don't feel like you have to get the most expensive bike, you know. And the only reason I say that is there's some brands that their least expensive bike is more than five grand. And I would say those are amazing bikes. We sell a lot of them. And I don't want people to think that. Yeah, I mean maybe it's six or seven. It's just what I'm saying, like that middle ground. The dollar, the dollar amount is not as much of an issue. If you see, you know, it's it's more like don't feel like you have to get the top line in order to be happy.
Host - Josh AndersonLet me go four to seven. Okay.
Host - Dane HigginsFour to seven thousand dollars is a sweet spot. You okay, all right. And then uh second thing is if you do want to be faster, you can look at coaching, you can look at getting a proper fit on the bike so you're using your proper muscles. Losing a little bit of LBs on your waist, maybe losing a little weight, um, you know, and also tire selection. So I'll agree with you. You your tires can make a big difference to your ride. And don't be so afraid to play with you know different brands and try things. I know it seems like a lot of money because you're wearing them out. Uh, it's not like buying a fork that you can keep for 10 years, you're literally gonna wear them out, and so it's kind of like throwing the money away. But if you find a good tire, there's nothing wrong with sticking with that, but try some stuff out. And then uh the last thing I would say is when it comes to you know keeping up with the Joneses, that's not necessarily what's always important. Whatever some guy on YouTube thinks is amazing or some pro rider is riding, that's not always the best thing for you. And so be open to open to finding out what's best for you. Buy what makes you happy, man.
Host - Josh AndersonYeah.
Host - Dane HigginsSo we we agreed on most of the points. Besides the 5,000 is a sweet spot.
Host - Josh AndersonWe pretty much agree.
Host - Dane HigginsI just don't like attaching numbers to stuff. I know, I know. Because you you go in a bike shop, you gotta sell bikes, but well, not only that, but like, man, I here's what I t so here's where this comes from. I I teach the guys in the shop, don't help somebody with your wallet, help it with theirs. That's a good point. Yeah, the reason is is if if you you know are making a million dollars a year and you're driving a Ferrari, dropping 10 grand on a bike is not a big deal, you know. Yeah, but if somebody comes in and they're driving a, you know, uh a Hyundai, you know, that's 20 years old and they're having trouble, you know, making their rent, don't try and sell them a $10,000 bike. Like, like pay attention to what they need and try and get them the best value for what they can do. Yep. So that's that's more important the dollar point.
Host - Josh AndersonWell, I had fun. I don't know if our listeners will like this or not. I guess we'll look at the the numbers and find out, but um, thank you for the idea. I think I think I think this worked out well.
Host - Dane HigginsYeah, I think the people sitting around at the trailhead talking, saying the same thing. This is what they talk about. Yeah, it's true. So all right.
Host - Josh AndersonWell, uh as always, um, we would most definitely appreciate it if you give us some reviews. Yeah, like and subscribe. Like and subscribe on Apple Podcast, on Spotify. Um, five-star reviews are awesome. Write down. We also love engagement. We're trying to get better. We're getting a lot of um emails and fan mail, and we're not doing the best at getting back. So we'll try. I I commit that I will try to do better at getting back to everybody. Um we do also have some product that we'll put out there. We've got some whiskey cups that are laser etched with Mountain Cog. We got some hats, some really super high-end hats, actually, um, that we'll make available. I would say, like in the meantime, if you hear this and you're interested, just shoot us an email and we'll we'll work something out. Um we appreciate you all. Yeah. Have a fucking amazing afternoon, morning.
Host - Dane HigginsOh, and don't forget to build your shit kit.
Host - Josh AndersonAvoid the event.
Host - Dane HigginsI think that was an hour and a half. Oh yeah. Are you gonna cut out the shit kit? No, I don't think so. No. I think it's a it's funny. It's hilarious.
Host - Josh AndersonLike everybody everybody poops. Everybody poops. I think it's what it's called. I I have this thing with this.
