SPEAKER_01 0:43

Well.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

Well.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Hello there.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Hello.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

It's been forever and a minute.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

It has been forever and a minute. Life has been happening.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Yes. What has it been? A year?

SPEAKER_00 0:52

No. I think we last recorded...

SPEAKER_01 0:54

In August? Yeah. So it's been like half a

SPEAKER_00 0:57

year. More. Eight months. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Yeah, it feels like this.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

We're back!

SPEAKER_01 1:01

We're back! We're doing it. We're testing out if we can do it the same.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

I believe in us.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

I believe in us. Okay. Having faith. So what do we have here today? We have...

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Something you've been chewing on for four months. Isn't that

SPEAKER_01 1:16

what I always

SPEAKER_00 1:16

say now? I mean, maybe we need to take a break to get you on this. Right. I think, you know, it's some perfection

SPEAKER_01 1:21

here. Right, right. This one is like... Is this one perfection? Yeah, I think it's perfection. You think it's perfection? I think it's really good. It's really good. Yes. Yes. And I wrote it quick. Well, not really. Well, it took four months. Four months to write it in like five minutes. Right. Right. Four months to five minutes. But yes, I wrote it very quick. I was actually surprised by how I wrote it. Let's give a little bit of introduction to what this is and how I came to write this one because I'm always trying to find... Like the last group spiritual meeting I had, I told everybody I was a translator. I said, actually, you need to look at me as a translator. I live in a certain experience and I'm always trying to translate the experience. And my job is to translate it in a way that makes sense. Like if you don't, if others don't understand it, it's like it's on me. Like I'm never going to go like, well, you guys are not working hard enough because you're not getting it. It's more like, I guess I'm not explaining it well enough. Right. And so somehow in the last year, I stumbled across a piece of human history that really enlivened me and made me curious. And I've listened to some podcasts about it, and I read a book about it, and did some research about it, and discovered that for 2,000 years, us human beings, had the natural idea that the Earth was at the center of the universe. And then only in 1543 did somebody actually publish a research that actually said, well, it's not so.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

Uh-oh.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Uh-oh. Uh-oh.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Heretic.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Heretic. And there's a whole... There's a book called A More Perfect Heaven that I read that is really worth reading about how difficult it is to transition humanity from thinking that the universe looks one way and then suddenly it looks another way. For us, it's very easy now. We go like, well, of course. But for 2,000 years, it was something else. And so then... I really got curious about this thing, how we get stuck, how we get, oops, somebody made a noise, how we actually get stuck on models. Like we're kind of a model-oriented creature.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

We get fixed in the model and then we think that that's the reality.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

Right, right. And we don't even know that we're having a model. Right. Right. Unconscious to our own model. Right. And we're like, this is the truth. Of course it's the truth. Right. And so... I started realizing that there's this, you know, we create these models and the models that we create are hidden from us. Like we don't actually know them. And so we get into these belief systems that we don't even know we have. And then we get stuck until somebody says, hey, it's just a model,

SPEAKER_00 4:26

you know? And

SPEAKER_01 4:28

then we're like, no, we don't know. We don't understand what you're saying. And so... In the book, More of Perfect Heaven, there is a point there where he tries to explain that the earth is not stationary, which for us is very common. Like, of course it's not stationary.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

I can't feel it moving. Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

What do you mean it's not stationary? What do you mean? Right. And so we've been educated that it's not stationary, so it's really easy for us. But in the book, there's a point there in which He tries to explain to the students, like, hey, the earth is actually not stationary. And you can see how the student's, like, really having a hard time. And he puts him in some sort of contraption where there's a chair and then he kind of, like, turns the chair fast in order to see things moving. And the student's, like, so confused. So there's a whole beautiful story. And then I wanted to create a metaphor from that and how actually the whole awakening process is a shifting of a model.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

It's brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

Yeah, shifting in a model and kind of discussing what's in center. So the next piece is called Center.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

Here we go, Center.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

Should I read it or you?

SPEAKER_00 5:42

You go.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

I go. I'll read it. Okay. So, Center. Once, and for two thousand years, the Earth was immovable. It lived at the center of the universe, and all the heavenly bodies revolved around it. This was at the time a truth we all shared, an unquestionable belief masquerading as a fact of life. Then, one heretic had the courage to offer us a different truth. Instead of stationary, he put the Earth in motion, He made it revolved around the Sun, and thus moved all of us from our long-held geocentric model to a revolutionary heliocentric one. This is the process of awakening. We realize the fallacy of our current model, and another model, more whole and more complete, gives us access to what was previously concealed. Our current model, not geocentric, but egocentric, defines us as a person in the center of all experiences. We are the hero of our own journey, a character of sorts that goes through this journey called life. And now, I have to be the heretic. Now I have to offer you another model, one that will put into question the person-centric model that you don't even know you have. And it goes like this. You are not a person having a life, but rather you are life. And at this moment, you are having a person.

SPEAKER_00 7:22

It just makes me giggle. Yes. The first time I read this, I just laughed and laughed.

SPEAKER_01 7:30

What is the giggling part?

SPEAKER_00 7:33

You know, you are not a person having a life. You are life, and at this moment, you're having a person. The idea of life has the person, not the other. Again, it's a flip of the model, but it's also like... I think I giggle too because it's true. Life is having a person. And now we just have it so upside down. We have it so upside

SPEAKER_01 7:57

down. We have it so upside down. It really is interesting how we have it upside down because it's like we've created all these models where life is a transitionary period that the person is having. Right. Like the person has a life and it comes from somewhere else like when we go to like religious soul oriented, right? The person has a life and then one day the person dies and goes to some other thing that's not life apparently and it's called heaven and then something else happens

SPEAKER_00 8:27

or you die and that's the end

SPEAKER_01 8:28

or you die and that's the end for the person life continues I did ask I did have this conversation years ago when we were discussing reincarnation with somebody like soul or something like that and I went like, so the flower in the garden, when it wilts, does it go to flower heaven? That was my question. They're like, no, of course not. It decomposed and go to the ground. And I was like, so why are we different? And the person looked at me kind of funny and said, well, we're special. And so there's something about that we create these models to feel very special. And I think that was the original geocentric model, that the Earth is immovable, because that's damn special. The whole universe revolves around this one thing where

SPEAKER_00 9:22

we live in.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

Oh my God, we're amazing.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

So what you're saying here is that we're like persona centric. Yeah. We're person centric. We're identified as ourselves centric.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

And putting selves in like the small s.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's our main identification. And it's not even an identification that we're born with. Like it's something that develops later on in life, probably starts at three, four year old when we start to speak.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

Fully developed around 40, hopefully.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

Yes, fully.

SPEAKER_00 9:56

Hopefully. If we're lucky.

SPEAKER_01 9:58

If we're lucky. But it's... It's a certain model and a certain story we tell ourselves. And we have to be able to tell ourselves that yet. So we have to be able to speak in order to do it.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

We have some wind here, so things are crashing around. It's like a whirlwind as we're talking about this. Maybe it's the world saying we're heretics right now. Or

SPEAKER_01 10:21

it's excited.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

It's excited, yes. You're onto something. The wind is blowing.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

You go, you go.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

And that's a model too. I mean, we think about these different models of consciousness there's a model of consciousness that says the wind is blowing therefore it must mean right something xyz right as opposed to the wind's just blowing

SPEAKER_01 10:41

yeah and maybe that's that's a good starting point a good starting point is that we often don't think about this but we create models and

SPEAKER_00 10:51

do you think we do that so that we can understand the world so that we can so that we can understand the world more

SPEAKER_01 10:58

I think we're compelled. I think it's part of our biology. We have to do models. We have to create. stories and structures and I'm not sure we can ever evade that.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

We can't get away from it because it's the way that we just, it's in our nature. It's hardwired. To create models. Yes. To help us understand our world or be in our world.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

Yes. I think once we start talking and have language we're creating models, right? We're saying this word means that and we start arranging things. So I don't think we can evade creating models but the beauty of the story of the transition between geocentric and heliocentric and geocentric means earth earth centric geo is earth helio means sun sun centric and the beauty about that story is like how attached and how ingrained like we really invest once we have a model and especially when we all agree on the model

SPEAKER_00 11:54

right

SPEAKER_01 11:55

we are like fully

SPEAKER_00 11:56

invested we get into our group delusion

SPEAKER_01 11:59

right

SPEAKER_00 11:59

all together all together that is what is right

SPEAKER_01 12:02

right and that's what is right and so And

SPEAKER_00 12:05

how do we know that the sun doesn't revolve around the universe or something else?

SPEAKER_01 12:09

Well, we definitely have a model that it doesn't. In this story, by the way, Galileo, which is the one that's most famous, the Handelman Inquisition, his thing was that once he created more and more sophisticated telescopes, then he started seeing all kinds of bodies revolve around all kinds of centers. So that kind of messed everybody up. They're like, well, we're really rejecting this sun in the center and now you're telling us that there's all kinds of centers and we're like really confused.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

Right. And so the story. So burn him. Yes, let's burn him. Inquisition. Right. And they told him that he has to recant. Wow. And he had to recant because it's like. Otherwise

SPEAKER_00 12:48

they were going

SPEAKER_01 12:48

to. Yeah, they're going to. They can because, you know, there's another model and this model is holding. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

This reminds me of one thing that one of my mentors once said to me. He said, anybody who has a new model or consciousness that is more developed than ours we deem crazy or a heretic. Anybody who's below us is ignorant. But anybody who's in the same place as we are, they're like our people. I think about that a lot. Anytime I'm like, oh, they're crazy. What is that crazy thinking?

SPEAKER_01 13:22

I'm

SPEAKER_00 13:23

like, oh, they probably have some layer of consciousness that I haven't yet experienced.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

Yeah, they have kind of access to a model that I might not understand yet. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

Yeah, I like that. They have access to a model that I might not yet understand.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Yeah, yeah. And that's, and I really recommend reading a book called A More Perfect Heaven because it really tells the whole story of the thing and, you know, you'd expect that once, do you want to check that door? I'm going

SPEAKER_00 13:53

to go check that door.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

Okay. Okay, should be more quiet now. There's a storm outside, but I think we closed all the doors, so we're back. Yeah, these interesting models and to have access to the models. I mean, this story is so fascinating to me because it really shows how difficult it was for once we're born into a model to change it. It's so difficult. It's so like, we have to have compassion for that.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

And yet here we are in a heliocentric model. Yeah. Eventually the truth will win out.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

Yeah. So much resistance. Right. Now the other interesting thing about the story is like, until the model fell, so the model was there for 2,000 years, from the 4th century B.C. to the 17th century A.D., And the way it kind of like lost its stability was like we started to have more and more data points because it's science. So, you know, the astronomers found more and more sophisticated ways to look at the heavenly bodies and the night sky. And, you know, as long as there wasn't enough data... then we can kind of like say, well, this is the model. But then more and more data comes in, which I think also is like, you know, analogous to awakening. Like data comes in and you're like, well, I'm not so sure that what I think is happening is happening because the data doesn't fit. And so the data comes in, the data comes in, and the astronomers at the time are really doing their best effort to keep the model going. So they're creating these really sophisticated, you know, kind of like theories on how the heavenly bodies move, especially some of the planets, because some of the planets weren't really seen as going in a very clear way around the Earth. They were kind of like going one way, and then they went the other way, and then they went again. So it

SPEAKER_00 15:52

must be that they're loop-de-looping.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

Right, they're looping, right, so they created all, so we start to loop. That's a good way to say it. So the astronomers started looping everything in order to fix it and created these really sophisticated models. And you can actually go on YouTube and see like geocentric versus heliocentric. And you can see how the old model, everything became more and more and more complex until somebody said, hey, this is a new model. And then everything just went quiet. And so I was thinking about us as humanity is like, have we reached a point that there's enough data points to start to have us question, like, is this model that we're having about how to live, is this working for

SPEAKER_00 16:37

us? Right,

SPEAKER_01 16:38

right. Right, and that's a question.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

I don't think it's working.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

I don't think either. But then again, we're, we, we probably didn't think it was working early on.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

Right. Right. Which is why we sought a different model.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

Right. Yeah. I don't know when, if you can remember when you kind of went like, well, I don't think this is how it's supposed to be. Yeah,

SPEAKER_00 16:54

I was really, I think we're very young.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

Very young? How young?

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Yeah. Probably early teens.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

Early teens.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

Maybe even younger.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

Yeah. Yeah. You already had that, like the data points started coming in and it's like,

SPEAKER_00 17:05

this doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

Right. Right. I was more in my twenties, I think. Yeah. Like I was like, They're like, I don't think people are happy and I'm not happy. And then I went and kind of ventured into Buddhism and they had the whole craving and aversion, which of course didn't work for me. But as a model, it was like, oh yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

If

SPEAKER_01 17:24

I just don't have craving and aversion, that would

SPEAKER_00 17:26

be great. I wonder between us how many models we've tried on. Right? Many. They're like, okay, well, that's not quite working. Let's try this model or let's try that model. And I think that's something that seekers do. We put on a bunch of different models to see.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

And it could be that there's a model that clicks, but it brings you, I think, to what you're talking about in the short. Eventually, all models will bring you here.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

Yeah. And then sometimes I encounter people who are other spiritual teachers, and they want me to adhere to their model. Right. Like the Vedanta people, they're like, you know, there's nothing here. It's all an illusion. And they go like, you know, they try to talk to me about it, and I was like, dude, that's not my model. I'm not interested. I don't care.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

As you know, I went deep down that model. I did, too. drank that one really well for a few years

SPEAKER_01 18:12

nothing exists so

SPEAKER_00 18:15

and it's still true nothing does exist and it exists at the same time yes and both

SPEAKER_01 18:19

there we go not gonna go down that rabbit hole

SPEAKER_00 18:22

do you want to start this and we've kind of been talking about this at this beginning again

SPEAKER_01 18:26

right So I love this piece, like once and for 2,000 years, the Earth was immovable. And it's kind of interesting to say that because the Earth was what it was always, whether we recognize it or not. But in our model, it was absolutely

SPEAKER_00 18:42

immovable. Everything rotated around

SPEAKER_01 18:44

it. Yeah. And of course it was immovable. I mean, because we're sitting on the Earth and like nothing's moving.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

Right. So to tell us.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

It looks like the moon is moving and the sun is moving and the sky is moving. And

SPEAKER_01 18:54

we're not. So we can totally understand why. it was immovable for so many years because how could it not be but it also lived at the center of the universe which is of course just fits like the immovability of it and also fits all our religious theologies which is God created us and we're the most important so of course everything evolved around us and all the heavenly bodies revolved around it this was at the time a truth we all shared And this is a sentence I really like because it's not really a truth.

SPEAKER_00 19:31

Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

Right. Yeah. What gives it the truth, like, place in our psyche is that we shared it.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

And that's what we do. You know, we...

SPEAKER_00 19:40

Our shared delusion.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

Right. We have a shared delusion and we call this shared delusion a truth. Right. And so in the next sentence, I kind of open it up and I say... An unquestionable belief, because that's what it really was.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

It wasn't really a truth. It was a belief.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

It was a belief.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

And you couldn't question it.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

And you couldn't question it. So masquerading as a fact of life. This was it. You can't question it. You're crazy if you question

SPEAKER_00 20:05

it. Right. The heretic is coming.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

Right, the heretic

SPEAKER_00 20:08

is coming. Then one heretic had the courage to offer us a different truth. Instead of stationary, put the earth in motion and made it revolve around the sun and thus moved all of us from our long-held geocentric model to a revolutionary heliocentric one. We've been talking about

SPEAKER_01 20:22

that. And the fun part is that this is Nicholas Copernicus. He put the earth in motion.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

Go Copernicus! Did they try to burn him too?

SPEAKER_01 20:33

No. No, no. I'll tell you the story now. But he took the earth and started moving it. It's a big place to move, but he moved it. Like one guy.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

I wonder what his insight was. You know, what was that moment, that aha moment where he's like, wait a minute.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

I don't think we're the center. Right. I think we're moving.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Yeah. The nice, the amazing thing about it that he was in Poland and he was pretty isolated. So it took him like, he was in his 60s when he finally published it. He actually published it the year he died.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Whoa.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

Yeah, but he was kind of isolated.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

Maybe it was good that he died because they would have burned him.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Yes, they would have. But he was actually encouraged because he wasn't ready to publish it. He was just doing it for himself. And I remember the guy that came and moved and kept him company, I'll remember maybe in a minute, but he had encouragement. He had somebody that was like, you have to publish this. You have to put it out there. And he was like, I'm not ready, not ready. And so it was a whole thing. Maybe he knew somewhere deep down, like, oh, God. Oh, this is not going to go well. And it's a lot of courage. It's a lot of courage to be a heretic and just go like, hey, I don't think we're doing the right thing. So he was encouraged by... This other guy and this other guy took it and published it and did all the work.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Because actually the originator didn't want to do it.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

So that other guy really should get some credit.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

Another guy gets a lot of credit,

SPEAKER_00 22:09

yeah. Although somebody probably would have figured out eventually.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Probably somebody did. There are rumors that somebody figured it out way before. Before he did. Yes, yes. But again, the interesting thing here is that data points kept on coming in, data points kept on coming in, until somebody finally said, okay, there's enough data points here for me to actually put things in question. I think until you have enough data points, it's really hard to do.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

Right.

UNKNOWN 22:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Want to read the next one?

SPEAKER_00 22:38

This is the process of awakening. We realize the fallacy of our current model. Another model, more whole and more complete, gives us access to what previously was concealed. Right. Which is exactly what happened here, right? Yes. We had this concealed, didn't know it, and then all of a sudden, now you see it. Yeah. And for some people, once they see it, they can't unsee it.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Yeah. Yeah. The interesting part here is that I've never... Before I started contemplating it like this and used science as a way to organize this, I've never thought of awakening as a change of a model. Even though I feel it, I've lived it, but I've never thought about it like, oh, the model of... There's some aspect of the model of reality that changed for me.

SPEAKER_00 23:25

Right. Absolutely. I

SPEAKER_01 23:27

don't know if you've ever thought about

SPEAKER_00 23:28

it. Absolutely. I don't think I've ever thought of it as a model or like, but reality changed. The place in which my center was, this is called center, the place in which my center was shifted. It

SPEAKER_01 23:40

shifted. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

And so I didn't see the world the same ever since.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

Right, right. You positioned yourself different.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Right. It's like when the astronaut first goes to the outer space and sees the Earth differently.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

Yeah, it's shocking. It's very shocking. Yeah, it's very shocking.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

And then, you know, I wonder even with like the James Webb telescope and like, what are we about to see? Yeah. That's just...

SPEAKER_01 24:03

Going to shock our model.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

Shock our model.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

Right. Yeah. I often think about the... the model that we used to believe in or hope to believe in that there's such a thing as an atom right we had we had this hope right there's going to be the solid building block

SPEAKER_00 24:19

and then there's a quark

SPEAKER_01 24:20

and then there's a quark and actually and actually it's statistically there and not there and it's actually just vibrating or not and we're not really sure and so we create these models matter of frequency yeah yeah but it's amazing like for example that in in an atomic world we couldn't find one thing that was solid but we sure we're hoping right I mean that's the I actually looked up the definition of Adam which comes from ancient Greek which means uncuttable hmm

SPEAKER_00 24:49

yeah oops oops right so we

SPEAKER_01 24:52

had this uncuttable uncuttable model right oops we left the name but you know the model there's

SPEAKER_00 24:58

so much that we don't know we don't know

SPEAKER_01 25:00

no

SPEAKER_00 25:01

there's so much that we don't know and we don't know and it's this great mystery and I think there's something really fun about

SPEAKER_01 25:09

yeah

SPEAKER_00 25:09

It's such a mystery, and those of us who are into it and geek out on it, we keep digging into it. There's science, but then there's also philosophy and religion, and where does all that meet?

SPEAKER_01 25:22

But I guess there's something about us, or something about anybody that's willing to consider, that we're not afraid when the data points don't

SPEAKER_00 25:32

fit. When they change, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

We're not afraid of that, and I think...

SPEAKER_00 25:35

If anything, we look for it.

SPEAKER_01 25:36

Right, we look for it, like, ooh... I got it wrong? Cool.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

Awakening!

SPEAKER_01 25:44

Right. But I think a lot of us are like, or maybe that's the way we're educated, or maybe we're just hardwired to find security. When the data points are not working, we don't want to hear it. Right. We close off. Yeah. And that's really part of our discussion here because I think both of us kind of look around at what we're doing and how we're destroying and so on and so forth. And I'm like, a lot of people are ignoring the data points. They just don't want to hear it. It frightens them to go like, hey, the Earth is not in the center. Just as an analogy, right? It really frightens them to...

SPEAKER_00 26:23

think it's moving

SPEAKER_01 26:25

yeah through this big black space right or to think that the model that we built for ourselves here is not working right right so it's like and so

SPEAKER_00 26:35

and so what's our current model

SPEAKER_01 26:36

okay so let's talk about our current model okay and this is this is where it gets kind of very intricate um Our current model, not geocentric, but egocentric, defines us as a person in the center of all experiences. We are the hero of our own journey, a character of sorts that goes through this journey called life. So just to verify here. this is the basic reality most of us live in. Me,

SPEAKER_00 27:11

individual.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Yeah. Me, individual, which is some sort of physical opaque box here. And this box is having experiences. I'm not sure what's inside the box. There's some organs and some blood and some mushy stuff. But I don't really feel it throughout the day. I'm not really feeling all this mechanics. What I am feeling is this thing called myself. And then I go to an ice cream parlor and I get a nice ice cream and I go like, ooh, that was really tasty. And so this thing called the person in the center has now had an experience. And then somebody doesn't call me back. And this person, this kind of like opaque, you know, body mind thing now has an experience of being upset because you didn't treat me well. Right. And so that's the basic model that we all have, which

SPEAKER_00 28:05

is a person centric, a

SPEAKER_01 28:06

person centric model.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

And so within the person centric model, we have an ego that

SPEAKER_01 28:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

Within this model.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

So many people are like, oh, I got to get rid of my ego. Or, oh, you're being so ego-oriented.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

The spiritual people, right? They're like, yeah. It's like a person-centric model has an ego. Right. And they talk about it. They say, my ego.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

Right.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

And I also want to experience ego disillusion.

SPEAKER_00 28:33

Right, right,

SPEAKER_01 28:34

right. So the person is constantly trying to play with their ego.

SPEAKER_00 28:37

And

SPEAKER_01 28:37

it's really not like that. It's the wrong model. The person is an ego.

UNKNOWN 28:42

Right.

SPEAKER_01 28:43

Like the person-centric model is an egocentric model. There is no such thing as a person-centric without an ego or with an ego. There's no...

SPEAKER_00 28:50

And without a story.

SPEAKER_01 28:51

Without a story,

SPEAKER_00 28:53

right. So in person-centric, we have an ego, we have a story. Yes. What else do we have in the person-centric model? We

SPEAKER_01 29:00

have experiences.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

Oh, right, because we eat the ice cream. Right. That tastes good. We

SPEAKER_01 29:05

have thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 29:06

We have thoughts. We

SPEAKER_01 29:07

have emotions.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

We have property. Okay. We

SPEAKER_00 29:10

own things. We own things. So we have things and circumstances.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

Right. We are very distinct from other persons and

SPEAKER_00 29:17

other things. So there's separation. There's

SPEAKER_01 29:19

tremendous separation. Because there's me and there's you. Right. Exactly. And then there's lots of contrast. Yeah. Lots of dualities. Yeah. And then also we have this really weird thing in which I'm... This is maybe the hardest one to talk about because I'm this person who used to be also a child and now is not.

UNKNOWN 29:39

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

So

SPEAKER_00 29:40

we have growth.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

Yes. So this person grows. But it's me.

SPEAKER_00 29:45

Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

Right. It's me. Like I'm looking at a picture of me and I go like, that's me.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

That's me when I was seven.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

Right. So there's an object constancy. Right. Is that a thing in child development? Right. There's an object constancy that this person somehow is constant. It's in the center. Things belong to it. It has experiences, has property, has an ego, has thoughts, has emotions, all belong to it.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

So many people listening right now are like, yes.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

Yes, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

That's it. That's the model, right? That's my truth. That's my

SPEAKER_01 30:17

experience. Right. And I pointed to you and I said, you're Jaya. You're this thing called, I can name you. And you're Ori. Right, and I can name you. This person.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

And Jaya has this identity.

SPEAKER_01 30:27

Right. Yeah. And it's very convincing. It's very convincing because... We don't actually know anything else, right? And it's not true that we don't encounter anything else because I've met many people who have experiencing not person-centric reality. But here's the amazing thing that happened. Even if you experience non-person-centric reality, when you come back, you said, I am the person who experienced it. Right, right, who experienced it. Right, right. And that's the most amazing thing where people go like, In the non-dual realm, if you're into it, go like, I had a non-dual experience.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 31:04

And I kind of go like, I have no idea what

SPEAKER_00 31:06

you're talking about. Like when I say, I was a non-dual asshole for two years. Right, right. That's a person-centric statement. That's a

SPEAKER_01 31:13

person-centric statement, right. Because the person-centric can have things and not have things, and things come and things go. Also, the person-centric is very dramatic. Right. Right, it's very dramatic. We love drama. Because it's all about the story, and story is usually drama. Like the most common story is drama. And so the person-centric is very dramatic. So, for example, if the person-centric gets enlightened,

SPEAKER_00 31:35

it's

SPEAKER_01 31:36

very dramatic enlightenment. Right, right. I had the sky opened up to me and all the deities came. I became the cosmos. It's very dramatic, right? And if the person thinks that another person is enlightened, they dramatize them. They're like, oh, you've been dramatized plenty, right? Yes. Yes. We don't have to talk about that. Right. But the person-centric idealize other persons.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

Right, right. You have had this experience and I have not had this experience and therefore you are XYZ.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

You are this grand person. But you can notice, you can start to notice that everything's personified. So we personify animals. Right.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

All the cartoons that we make where they talk just like us. Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

We're so into personifying everything. Well,

SPEAKER_00 32:24

because the world revolves around us.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

Because the only thing there are here is persons. It's all persons. That's the building block. That's the atom of this reality. It's person, person, person, person. When we go to war, it's because these persons are having a conflict with those persons. Right.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

Or these persons won something that those persons

SPEAKER_01 32:45

have. Have, right. They want to own that which those, I think, the

SPEAKER_00 32:49

most... Because we have things within the person. We

SPEAKER_01 32:51

have, right.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

And we've got to go get things if we don't have the things.

SPEAKER_01 32:55

There's a whole complication that goes with person-centric reality.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

There's a whole... The most amazing thing that person-centric does, I'm bewildered by this, is that the person-centric reality personifies God.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

Right.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

fully

SPEAKER_00 33:14

personified God is a man in the clouds with a beard and he's white

SPEAKER_01 33:18

and he's angry at me

SPEAKER_00 33:19

and he's very angry at me and he's going to punish me

SPEAKER_01 33:21

right and I didn't do the right thing but if I do the right thing this person God he will get me to this really cool place called heaven

SPEAKER_00 33:28

and

SPEAKER_01 33:28

this person will go there

SPEAKER_00 33:31

or you're really being a heretic now

SPEAKER_01 33:32

it's dangerous

SPEAKER_00 33:33

yes

SPEAKER_01 33:34

it is should I even continue

SPEAKER_00 33:36

yes we should continue I think it's worth it somebody should

SPEAKER_01 33:40

protect this person later on but

SPEAKER_00 33:44

But

SPEAKER_01 33:45

jokes aside, jokes aside, yes, the person-centric reality views everything through the frame of reference of person. So everything's a person. So, for example, you know, when I was born, immediately, I'm sure, my dad personified me. Right. He said, well, this is Ori. This is my son. This is my son. He's a person. A male. Right, a male. I wasn't even a person when I was born. Like, person happens later on, just like, just in case you don't know, person actually, a self-person actually happens later on developmentally at three, four, five, once we start speaking, but... Yeah, I was personified. And then, oh, oh, the other thing. Since it's person-centric and it's kind of opaque, then if you did something wrong, then you did it.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

Right.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

You're guilty.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

And now you're bad.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

And now you're bad.

SPEAKER_00 34:31

Shame, shame, shame.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

Shame, shame, shame. Right? And so you can see that the person-centric reality... kind of blocks a certain curiosity.

SPEAKER_00 34:39

And creates a world of judgment.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

A world of judgment, right? Prison-centric reality is very judgmental, super judgmental. So that's one of the things that happens there.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

Are you ready to talk about the new model and being a heretic? Are we ready? Should I read this next piece?

SPEAKER_01 34:55

Well, I have a question for

SPEAKER_00 34:57

you first. Okay,

SPEAKER_01 35:00

okay. How do we prepare ourselves for a different model? Because, you know, it is difficult, like, to even, so maybe let's even say, it's difficult to even understand a new model, right? It puts in question something that we've lived with for so long, that to just go out and say the model, sure, I'm going to say it, but in general, to actually accept the model, there's... A lot of inquiry is required.

SPEAKER_00 35:27

I think one thing that we've been doing, just talking about it, is that there have been models in history that we can relate to, like an Earth-centric model versus the heliocentric model, where we have that where people can go, oh... There have been these moments throughout history, so I think history can point to something.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

That it's possible to change

SPEAKER_00 35:49

a model. That it's possible to completely change a huge

SPEAKER_01 35:51

reality. And be completely wrong for thousands of years.

SPEAKER_00 35:54

Yes. And then I think we have to let go of righteousness, that we're right, that we have this... This like my way is the way I think we all have to be open to. I don't know what I don't know and get curious. Curiosity always breeds expansion. As soon as we shut down curiosity, we've lost something.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

So maybe the invitation is, hey, transitioning between one model and another is not easy. But let's invite curiosity.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

And it's been done on a big, huge scale.

SPEAKER_01 36:28

Right. It's been done before. Yeah. Right. And also the data points. Like, every one of the listeners has to decide for themselves if this model, and to consider that it's perhaps a model and not really the truth, and is this model working? Right. Because this model of the person-centric reality has a lot of judgment in it. It's a very judgmental model. And so we blame each other. We blame ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 36:58

We're not in right relationship with most anything.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

We're not. We see life besides us as separate from us. We see it as inferior than us. We disown it. We're not connected to it. So the person-centric model is very... It's a separatist model. And so one has to decide if they want to keep on living in that separatist model because... and this is one thing we haven't talked about yet, the person-centric model actually prevents us from having a deeper or access to a deeper and larger experience. It actually conceals from us most of what's available to

SPEAKER_00 37:36

us. Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:37

Which is maybe that's the offering, that's the spiritual satchitananda bliss. They're like, you're preventing yourself from a certain amount of bliss by keeping to this model.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:47

You know? So, okay. So let's

SPEAKER_00 37:50

be heretics. So a promise of bliss. We need a little promise, a sprinkle of bliss on top. Yeah, let's

SPEAKER_01 37:54

sprinkle bliss

SPEAKER_00 37:55

on the list now. To

SPEAKER_01 37:57

change the model. To change. Yes, okay. You want to read this part?

SPEAKER_00 38:01

Sure. And now I have to be the heretic. Now I have to offer you another model. One that will put into question the person-centric model that you don't even know you have.

SPEAKER_01 38:13

Right, because you've never known that you have it. Like maybe for the first time we're saying, hey... You think you're a person, you think there's a person in the center, and it's just a model. And until now, you've probably never thought that it's a model. Like nobody would ever, I mean, how many years did it take me? Like, you know, 20 years of inquiry to start to comprehend that it's a model. Okay, let's try it. You ready? You want to read it?

SPEAKER_00 38:34

Sure. And it goes like this. You are not a person having a life, but rather...

SPEAKER_01 38:40

You are life, and at this moment, you are having a person.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

it's ridiculous

SPEAKER_01 38:51

it's ridiculous it's ridiculous yeah

SPEAKER_00 38:54

so let's unpack this for people who are like what i don't get it i'm not laughing what did you say

SPEAKER_01 39:00

why is this

SPEAKER_00 39:00

you are not a person having a life but rather you are life and at this moment you are having a person

SPEAKER_01 39:06

right right for you it's laughable because it's obvious

SPEAKER_00 39:08

right right

SPEAKER_01 39:09

yes like what

SPEAKER_00 39:11

are you talking about what what

SPEAKER_01 39:13

is this podcast we should go somewhere or

SPEAKER_00 39:17

what is this podcast we need to dive into every

SPEAKER_01 39:21

every nuance listen to all the other episodes so yeah let's let's dive into this let's see how to look at it so let's let's first talk about maybe something that's a little bit obvious okay this person Ori this person Jaya it comes and goes life continues right life has been going on for like millions of years and Many life forms have come and go. Extinctions have come and go. Life continues, right? And so to start maybe with that, to start to say, hey, if you're willing, willing to pay attention, look around you. You know, all these species around here, trees, whatever, were here way before this particular person.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

Cockroaches.

SPEAKER_01 40:05

Yeah. Everywhere. Yeah, that was the virus.

SPEAKER_00 40:10

Bacteria.

SPEAKER_01 40:11

Bacteria, right? There's so many things we call life. And I'm not even limiting life to life forms, but let's start with just life forms, like trees, animals, things like that. These have been here for a very long time. Life as people has been here for a very long time. And remember, just a clarification, I'm talking about the person-centric, not necessarily the person. Persons have existed, like trees have existed, like organisms have existed. Life has existed for many years. My life will come and go. Your life will come and go. And whoever's listening, your life will also come and go. Life stays. And so to say as a person that I am having a life is kind of like, what would you call it? Like how, like when somebody says life is something that I'm having, right? I'm this one occurrence and expression and I think life is something I'm having. The language that we have created to describe this is interesting.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

Because it feels like our reality, right? It feels like our truth is I'm the one having it.

SPEAKER_01 41:19

I'm the one having the life.

SPEAKER_00 41:20

And so... And it is so much like the universe is revolving around the earth. Because it's immovable. Right. It feels immovable. It feels like, no, I'm the one

SPEAKER_01 41:33

having it. I'm the immovable one and everything

SPEAKER_00 41:36

else is... If I pinch you, who's being pinched? Right.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

I'm having it. I'm being pinched. It's

SPEAKER_00 41:41

me. I'm pinching, Rory.

SPEAKER_01 41:44

She pinched me. It wasn't that bad. One more time. Yeah. So, yeah, it is very convincing. It is very convincing to perceive that I'm a person that is having a life, that I'm a person that's having experience. It's very convincing. When it's not convincing is that when it gets into a problem, if everybody's done that, is when you start asking questions. As long as you don't ask questions, it's very convincing. Even though it's absurd, like... I am having a life. Life is so much bigger than me. How can I have a life? And where exactly am I having it?

SPEAKER_00 42:20

Right, right. In this house. Do I

SPEAKER_01 42:22

have it like a pocket in which I have a life? Right?

SPEAKER_00 42:26

Yeah. I mean, it's like we try to take something as big as life and we're trying to squish it into our experience.

SPEAKER_01 42:31

Right, right. Into this thing. Yeah. And so what we're saying is, like if we were to change the language and correct it, I am a person. If we were to correct it, we could say I'm a person that's having a life story. Because I'm not really having a life. It's not mine to have. But I'm having a life story, which is a story about life.

SPEAKER_00 42:52

Right.

SPEAKER_01 42:53

I'm having a story about life.

SPEAKER_00 42:55

Which goes along with the person-centric model that... that having a story is part of that model. Yes. You have a story in order to have that person-centric

SPEAKER_01 43:04

experience. You can't have a person-centric reality without a story in which the person is a character in. You can't. You cannot. And the interesting thing is about like in our day-to-day 24-hour reality, there's about eight hours in which life is not a person when we go to sleep.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01 43:24

Because there's no story running. Unless you're dreaming. I'm dreaming like crazy. All day long. You keep on running the stories. But yes, this thing where we are a character inside a sequence of events is something very unique to our brain structure. And so it creates this reality of a person as a character in a story.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

And this may be a little bit of a segue, but do you believe that we're just living out life? Or is it more that we can affect the story once we realize that we're in this experience of a story? Do you think we can affect the story we're living?

SPEAKER_01 44:03

I think if we dive into the deeper realms, the life realms, the ones that are actually driving this whole thing.

SPEAKER_00 44:11

The other model that we're talking about. The

SPEAKER_01 44:12

life-centric. Yes, life can create. Life is always created. Life has created itself as many species and many expressions. So the real driving force is the life that brought about the story in the first place. It's not that it brought about the story, it brought about the prefrontal cortex that created stories in the first place right stories were created out of life

SPEAKER_00 44:39

so you're saying like life life creates and it's infinite like just roiling creation that's happening constantly and in that that life could choose i want to have this experience of i don't know let's say our our skin tone changes to blue And in 10,000 years, we all have blue skin. Because life decided that.

SPEAKER_01 45:03

Yeah. The way it decides, though, it's different than a person-centric reality. Because life, what I've experienced, doesn't decide through willpower. It's not the same decision. It just... expands its creativity forever and it just happens to itself right i know that sounds very but it's

SPEAKER_00 45:20

not it's creation

SPEAKER_01 45:22

right it's creation it doesn't sit as separate and go like i'm gonna build a car

SPEAKER_00 45:26

right

SPEAKER_01 45:26

right because that's that's a separate right that's a person-centric reality only there's nothing in life the person-centric god model is like the same as the person-centric model which is like there's a god that said okay i'm gonna create this and this and that right Life doesn't move like that. Life grows, creates, expands, tries things out, and just has a certain kind of intelligence that is mysterious to the person-centric. The person-centric can't comprehend how the life-centric reality creates. It can be in awe of it. Because it's so much. Right. It's like galaxies and universes.

SPEAKER_00 46:08

Things are colliding and exploding and destroyed and created. How

SPEAKER_01 46:12

does this make sense? So the person-centric is very limited to the reality of story and character. It's very into the story and character. So everything it does, it does to... pour itself into character and story, other characters. That's all it can do.

SPEAKER_00 46:34

I noticed just as we're talking how easy it is to talk about the person-centric model because it's been the model. Yeah. And then how challenging, like how do we put into words this, at this moment you're having a person.

SPEAKER_01 46:48

Right, you're having a

SPEAKER_00 46:49

person. That's a life-centric model. Right. How would you call that?

SPEAKER_01 46:52

That's a life-centric model.

SPEAKER_00 46:54

So the life-centric model is this... viewpoint or perspective shift that life is having a person.

SPEAKER_01 47:02

Yes, life

SPEAKER_00 47:02

is having... That we are the flower blooming.

SPEAKER_01 47:04

Yes, the person is the experience.

SPEAKER_00 47:07

Life is experiencing itself through having a person.

SPEAKER_01 47:10

Yeah, through expressing itself as a person. So there's no person that's experiencing life. There's life that's experiencing a person. Now, let's talk about the benefit of that. Otherwise, why do it? Right, right. Because... like the geocentric heliocentric, why not stay in the geocentric?

SPEAKER_00 47:27

Why not stay in the person-centric? Right.

SPEAKER_01 47:30

And the reason for that is that if we stayed in the geocentric, A, we'd constantly be in conflict, because as we expanded, we'd be in conflict. But once things open up, how much did we discover, right? Once we let go of the geocentric, suddenly there's telescopes and the whole universe and mysteries and endless like particles and like a whole reality opened while the geocentric kind of kept us in our adolescence with a very like limited theology of like, you know, God created this in a very simplistic way. The geocentric was simplistic. The heliocentric started opening up like greater complexity in our reality the person centric limits us limits us tremendously like it makes us fight for basically minor experiences like we're fighting really fighting each other for like very limited experiences yeah And the life-centric. Stop that. Yeah. It's like there's so much.

SPEAKER_00 48:33

Stop it. Like heaven's right here on earth. What are

SPEAKER_01 48:38

we doing? Right. There's so much life.

SPEAKER_00 48:40

There is so much life.

SPEAKER_01 48:41

There's so much life. There's so much life.

SPEAKER_00 48:43

And there's so much life that life wants to experience.

SPEAKER_01 48:47

Yes. Yes. But it has to, it has to soothe, it has to basically for a little bit, kind of put aside the story, right? Because that's the person-centric problem.

SPEAKER_00 48:59

Do you think that life wants to experience the story, though? Do you think that life wants to experience war and these things that we grapple with? Do you think that that's part of it? I mean, look at ants. The ant eater comes along, slurps them all up.

SPEAKER_01 49:14

You could take that position.

SPEAKER_00 49:15

The whole thing's destroyed.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

You could take that position.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:19

Yeah. But, you know, I would approach it from another way. I can see that too. Life is lifing. Whatever happens,

SPEAKER_00 49:25

happens. Who cares? There's baby bunnies all out here. And I'm like, oh, somebody's going to come along and eat them. Yeah. You know? I feed the baby bunnies and then baby bunnies feed somebody else.

SPEAKER_01 49:35

From that perspective, there's no reason to move from person-centric to life-centric. Because life is just lifing, so who cares? Right. But from the person-centric perspective, the one we're all stuck in, we desire to be happy. We desire to be satisfied. And the person-centric model can't give us that. That's where we get stuck. The person-centric model can't give us happiness, can't give us satisfaction. And the reason it can't do that, and this is kind of a fun part, is because what is a movie with a happy ending? Right. It's a happiness that happens in the end.

SPEAKER_00 50:13

Right.

SPEAKER_01 50:13

That's happy ending. Right. And then you leave the theater.

SPEAKER_00 50:17

Right. Right. You don't get to see the rest of their life. No. Now they have babies. Right. And all kinds of mortgage. They lose a job. And the mortgage. And, you know. Yes, they have a love. It's a great love story.

SPEAKER_01 50:27

Right. And they lose their libido. And, like, sex is not what it used to be. Right. But, yeah. And the kids. And the crying. Right. And so... In a story model, which is a person-centric model, there's an attempt to strive towards, because it's all story, right? The construct is all story. And so to be happy, I have to win the story. Right. I have to have a happy ending. You have to have a circumstance. Right, right. And it has to end. Right. I have to reach a certain end. It has to stop there. It has to stop. But since life doesn't stop like that... So you strive, you really work hard, and you go like, I'm going to build this and get that and get all the money, and then I'm happy. Then happy ending. And then you wake up the next day and you're

SPEAKER_00 51:07

like,

SPEAKER_01 51:08

well,

SPEAKER_00 51:08

I

SPEAKER_01 51:09

did happy ending yesterday. This is another day.

SPEAKER_00 51:12

And

SPEAKER_01 51:13

so the story, which is the crux of the person-centric reality, can't provide the person-centric reality what it wants. It cannot. And that's really the suffering. It just can't provide it. And so we're walking around person-centric, dreaming of happy endings, not understanding that this model has a mistake in it, same as the geocentric model. There's a mistake, an inherent mistake here that creates a lot of suffering for us. We're looking to get something that in the life-centric model we are.

SPEAKER_00 51:49

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_01 51:51

Right. That's the problem. Right. We're looking to get something that we are.

SPEAKER_00 51:54

I'm abundant. Right. Life.

SPEAKER_01 51:57

Right. Life is abundant. Life goes like abundant. Where is it not?

SPEAKER_00 52:00

Right.

SPEAKER_01 52:01

Right. And the person...

SPEAKER_00 52:02

You need food? It's everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 52:04

Everywhere. And the person-centric says, no, I have to get. I have to get. I have to acquire. Because I have to have. Because my whole model is having and pointing and guilt and shame. And there's a whole mess. And that's why... we have to move from it. We have to move from it because it is the source of our suffering. Like we'll never get out of it. We're always gonna fight each other. It's never, I mean, you see this with clients. I see this with clients. There's never a good enough story. Never. And people have amazing stories sometimes. Other people believe that they're happy.

SPEAKER_00 52:39

Well, if I only had what they had. Isn't

SPEAKER_01 52:42

that amazing that the person-centric does that? You look at another person and you go like, their story is amazing. And then my story isn't good. And the other person goes like, well, if you just knew my story,

SPEAKER_00 52:52

it's a mess too.

SPEAKER_01 52:54

So that is the thing. The thing is that the person-centric reality has something that it can't get from the model it's living, and so it's fighting itself.

SPEAKER_00 53:03

Right. So I think people listening may be asking this question. Okay, so how do I switch models? How do I live in a life-centric model versus this person-centric model?

SPEAKER_01 53:17

Right. So the first thing you have to do is consider Consider that there's another model.

SPEAKER_00 53:23

There's

SPEAKER_01 53:23

another model. The easiest way to do it is you find somebody, or you talk to somebody, or you maybe join a Zoom call with somebody. I'll probably make some more and more Zoom calls these days in the next year. But you join somebody who's more life-centric. And the life-centric person... doesn't have much judgment, if at all. And so the person-centric that's constantly in this judgment loop, which keeps them in place, keeps them contracted, meets a life-centric person that's not judging it, and that starts to create the shift. The non-judgment and the curiosity starts, because life is curious. Life is curious, creative, and so that's the easiest one. The easiest one is to do that. You can do it probably through psychedelics, you will encounter non-person centric because some psychedelics will take away your default mode network and so won't allow you to have a person centric.

SPEAKER_00 54:22

So you get a direct experience of a life centric model. You

SPEAKER_01 54:25

get a direct experience of no person in the center. And then through this language, see if you can understand that you were in a non-person centric reality and start to differentiate between the two.

SPEAKER_00 54:37

I think even just saying to yourself, right now I'm life having a person.

SPEAKER_01 54:41

Right.

SPEAKER_00 54:41

See what happens. to see what happens. See how like your worldview can change just with that statement of like, oh, I'm not eating ice cream and having the experience of an ice cream. I'm life having a person.

SPEAKER_01 54:54

Eating an ice

SPEAKER_00 54:55

cream. Eating an ice cream.

SPEAKER_01 54:57

The other thing you can do is move towards more I am sentences. So the person centric says, I have a breath. Right. Versus I am breath. I am breath. Right. So you can start to play with like, what's the difference between saying, I'm having a breath, which is person-centric, and then have the breath, and then slow things down, and then say, have a breath, and say, I am this breath.

SPEAKER_00 55:24

And

SPEAKER_01 55:25

once you say, I am this breath, you're moving to life-centric, because life-centric doesn't have that separation. Or... I am I'm having a sad moment or I am sadness right right I'm seeing beauty or I am beauty expressed

SPEAKER_00 55:40

I think there's a tricky piece here because some people can create an identity right in the I am statements of I am a person who's sad right right versus sad I I'm having experience of sad right I'm having experience of sad I'm a sad person which is still person centric versus I actually am sadness that flows and comes and goes and

SPEAKER_01 56:00

right because there is no such thing as a person without sadness or anger or happiness,

SPEAKER_00 56:04

whatever. Sadness just arises as part of life.

SPEAKER_01 56:07

As part of person, yeah. As part of life, having a person. Right. Always

SPEAKER_00 56:11

have them. One thing that I'm reminded of as we're talking, I listened to this podcast, The Emerald. Have you ever listened to Josh Shashe? And I was listening and he was talking about the goddess. There's a whole thing on the goddess and this experience of the goddess. And it clicked for me that, oh, the goddess is all of life, like in Hindu cultures. Right. Like this in goddess worship or goddess centric. It is all of life. But because we have a person centric model, we personify. Right. We need to personify. It's a goddess and the goddess and all her faces. But to truly experience the goddess. is to truly experience

SPEAKER_01 56:50

life-centric creation.

SPEAKER_00 56:52

Life.

SPEAKER_01 56:52

And that's probably, like, in my world, that would be the attempt of the goddess is to bridge. It's to create a big symbolic representation that is one leg in the person-centric reality, so it still has a connection to person. So you have all the person-centric people, something to relate to. Right. But the potential is actually to let all that go.

SPEAKER_00 57:12

And have a life-centric direct experience.

SPEAKER_01 57:16

Right. So the archetypal is an interesting... bridge between a person centric and a life centric I like that but some people get stuck in archetypal right and then they're fully person centric right and then there's deities and they're talking to deities and I think that's what you know the early Buddhists were trying to do they were trying to go like let's bridge it you know the Tibetan let's bridge let's create archetypes but ultimately the archetypes will dissolve into this life experience that's just magical yeah

SPEAKER_00 57:44

yeah what a grace to have those experiences right those glimpses right of it yeah and to lose that persona's person centric for just a moment just for a moment just a moment it's like a grain of sand where you just like lose it

SPEAKER_01 57:59

yeah and you've had it like just probably you've I'm pretty sure you've had it like me which is when you find yourself in some deep meditation or altered states and you find yourself in a story that is totally not your person centric story it's a bigger story it's a bigger story of life itself so these are archetypal layers that are still story and

SPEAKER_00 58:21

can be bridges and can

SPEAKER_01 58:22

be bridges

SPEAKER_00 58:23

to a full life centric experience

SPEAKER_01 58:24

right to a full life centric experience yeah so a lot of fun a lot of discovery in

SPEAKER_00 58:28

this conversation yeah I love it I love it so much

SPEAKER_01 58:30

yeah so you know to add one more thing in the last meeting that I had with my group here in Boulder um I said, you know, part of my job and our job is to be translators, right, is to really find a language. And in this particular short, it's about introducing a different kind of language and to give you that language to chew on. And so to allow you to You know, understand person-centric and understand that, you know, you don't have to attach to it. Like, I'm the person who has an ego, who has da-da-da-da. Right, I'm trying to get rid of my ego. Right, I'm trying to get rid of it. Trying to get enlightened. As opposed to in-person-centric realities, these are the parameters. You have an ego, you have a story. It never goes away in a person-centric reality. This is a person-centric reality. This is how it organizes itself. It can never be satiated fully. um it can never you know dive into like humongous bigger experiences it always have to encapsulate them into the story and so as long as you're in a person-centric reality you're in these parameters that kind of limit you when you're in life-centric there's lots of room for the person because there's lots of room for everything and there's also lots of room for like amazing rich experiences just it's not the person that's having them yeah

SPEAKER_00 59:51

right it's fun and one of the things i love saying lately is like everything gets to come to the party yeah and and I have been saying everything gets to come to the Jaya party, which is more of a persona person centric, but yet it also still has that life centric aspect because every single thing is welcome and life welcomes every single thing. And so, you know, maybe it's a life party and there's a life having a Jaya party within

SPEAKER_01 1:00:19

that. Life had to invent the Jaya so she can invite other, other persons

SPEAKER_00 1:00:25

to come to the party and play. Yeah. Because it's a good party over here.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:28

It is a good party. And again, just to emphasize, this model doesn't mean that there's no person called Jaya. Right. It's just that person Jaya is not in the

SPEAKER_00 1:00:38

center. Right. Because there's still an earth.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:41

Right?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:41

Right. It didn't stop revolving. It just wasn't in the center anymore.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:45

Right. Right. That's helpful. That's really helpful because... Oh, there's still a person, Jaya. There's still an earth here.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:53

There still is.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:54

It's just not the center.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:56

Yes, we're not those. This is not a model that says the person isn't real and so on and so forth. The person is absolutely real. The emotions you're having, the story you're having, it has a reality. It's just not person-centric.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:11

If you put it in the center, you will start fighting.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:14

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:16

The life-centric reality... and this is what I teach these days, the life-centric reality, the first thing it has to do is welcome the person. The first thing to do is welcome the person. If you don't welcome the person, then you go into a person-centric spiral of fighting who's on center. So first you welcome the person, love the person, all the idiosyncrasies of the person, and relax the person enough to feel the life underneath to understand that it's at the center of all of this.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:46

Just having a moment of gratitude right now. I'm just like, I'm so grateful to be this expression of life. Right? It's just so yum. It's so... When you have that center, right? It's just like, oh, thank you, goddess. Thank you, life. Thank you. Thank you for this. Right? Like grace of existence. Right. And also that this bloom that is Jaya, that is Ori, will at some point no longer be. Yeah, it

SPEAKER_01 1:02:15

will wilt.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:15

So let's enjoy the fucking life.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:19

Yeah, that's great. And gratitude, I think, what you just said, gratitude is usually, like if you're working this model yourself, you know when you're in life-centric, when there starts to be a feeling of gratitude for existence. So it's uncausal. It's just your own life force becomes like yummy.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:39

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:39

And you're like, oh, I'm recognizing that I'm this and then I'm grateful for it.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:44

Right. And that's enough.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:46

And that's enough.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:47

Because, oh my God, it's enough. Let me tell you. I think we're ending with that. It can't even be anymore. All right.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:55

I think that's enough. Plenty. Thank you. Thank you for having this with me.