Can Art Actually Heal You? Dr. Daisy Fancourt, Author of Art Cure, Shares the Science Behind Art as Medicine

What if the arts weren't just entertainment — but medicine? In this episode, I talk with Dr. Daisy Fancourt, one of the world's most cited scientists and author of Art Cure, about the growing body of research showing that creative engagement — music, dance, visual art — can reduce the risk of depression, slow dementia, help Parkinson's patients maintain motor function, and even slow biological aging. Daisy also shares personal stories, including her own daughter's recovery in the NICU, and practical tips for incorporating the arts into daily life.

• 00:00 — Intro & Pam's personal story: moving to Arkansas and witnessing the lingering divide of a recently desegregated school
• 01:39 — The music class that changed everything: Mrs. Gilbert and the upright piano
• 02:38 — Introducing today's guest, Dr. Daisy Fancourt
• 04:10 — Interview begins
• 04:47 — Why reading Art Cure kept Pam up at night
• 05:34 — "We are a planet of 8 billion artists" — we are all innately creative
• 06:37 — The "seatbelt moment": when art becomes as automatic as putting on the seatbelt in the car
• 08:01 — The many ways art affects our health: wellbeing, prevention, and treatment
• 09:58 — Daisy's background: from professional pianist to professor at UCL
• 11:41 — Arts on prescription and individual stories from the book
• 12:23 — Josh's story: cerebral palsy, magic camp, and the Magic Circle
• 14:32 — Emily's story: how magic gave a shy girl her voice
• 15:27 — Daisy's personal story: singing to her premature daughter in the NICU
• 18:50 — Dance and Parkinson's disease: what the studies show
• 21:29 — How music affects the brain — and slows aging
• 22:51 — Music, language acquisition, and why we sing to babies
• 26:08 — "Spit Girl": Daisy's PhD in psychoneuroimmunology and saliva research
• 29:09 — Drumming circles and the visceral power of rhythm
• 30:32 — Why your favorite genre is the healthiest music for you
• 33:10 — Elevator music, Muzak, and why grocery store playlists keep you shopping
• 35:12 — Threats to arts funding in the UK and US — and the economic case for the arts
• 37:42 — Practical tips for incorporating art into your daily life
• 39:39 — Why art binges don't work — and what does
• 41:04 — Where to find Art Cure and follow Daisy's research
• 42:24 — Closing thoughts: how arts education broke down barriers in school

Follow Daisy's Work!

https://sbbresearch.org/

Reach Pam at arthealsallwoundspodcast.com

Transcript

00;00;12;00 - 00;00;31;11
Pam
Do you believe art can change the world? So do I. On this show, we meet artists whose work is doing just that. Welcome to art heals all wounds. I'm your host, Pam Uzzell

00;00;31;14 - 00;00;48;10
Pam
When I was 8 years old

00;00;48;12 - 00;00;54;16
Pam
I moved back to Arkansas. Before that, I'd gone to school in a little town on the Gulf of Mexico.

00;00;54;16 - 00;00;58;26
Pam
What I remember vividly the first time I stepped into my new class,

00;00;59;03 - 00;01;05;05
Pam
my Black classmates sat on one side of the classroom, and my white classmates sat on the other,

00;01;05;11 - 00;01;10;01
Pam
just like there was a wall dividing the two sides of the room.

00;01;10;04 - 00;01;15;20
Pam
My brain really couldn't make sense of it. Honestly, it was a little bit frightening.

00;01;15;20 - 00;01;29;10
Pam
What I didn't know, and what I wouldn't find out until many years after, was that the school system I was attending in Arkansas had only recently integrated. Probably around the same time that I began kindergarten.

00;01;29;13 - 00;01;39;05
Pam
I started feeling really stressed about going to school, but there was one day a week that I lived for. once a week,

00;01;39;07 - 00;01;41;10
Pam
We had a music class.

00;01;41;13 - 00;02;06;22
Pam
We would file out of the classroom and gather around an old upright piano that stood in the corner of the cafeteria. Each week, Mrs. Gilbert would introduce a new song to us. She first taught us about the song, where it came from, what the lyrics meant. Then she would play it on the piano. Once she had played it through once, we all stood and sang it together.

00;02;06;25 - 00;02;14;15
Pam
We would sing it several times in the session during these classes, until we knew at least the melody by heart.

00;02;14;18 - 00;02;38;01
Pam
In sixth grade, we were all given the choice to play a musical instrument. This continued in junior high and high school. Not everyone chose to play an instrument, but there were classes in fine arts theater classes. Yes, the schools were poor, but the idea of not having arts education would have been unthinkable at that time.

00;02;38;03 - 00;02;39;06
Unknown
Who?

00;02;39;06 - 00;03;11;20
Pam
Today I'm so happy to have on the show Daisy Fancourt. Doctor Fancourt is a professor of psychobiology and epidemiology at the University College London, where she heads the social Biobehavioral research Group. She's also director of the World Health Organization Collaborating Center on Arts and Health. She's been extensively published on findings of the necessity for arts, for both palliative and curative care, and for the prevention of disease.

00;03;11;23 - 00;03;17;17
Pam
Daisy is listed as one of the most highly cited scientists in the world.

00;03;17;20 - 00;03;23;07
Pam
I am very excited to talk to Daisy about her new book, Art Cure.

00;03;23;09 - 00;03;33;06
Pam
This book is an amazing read for anyone who is curious about the scientific studies that show the link between art and health.

00;03;33;08 - 00;03;34;27
Pam
We, all of us,

00;03;35;00 - 00;03;38;03
Pam
every single human being, is innately artistic

00;03;38;11 - 00;03;48;00
Pam
and can incorporate a daily arts practice to increase our health.



00;03;54;17 - 00;04;09;24
Pam
You want to know how you can really help me keep this show going? Follow me on your favorite listening app. So easy. Right? And if you really want to give the show a boost, leave me a five star rating or review.

00;04;09;27 - 00;04;10;09
Pam
Hi Daisy!

00;04;10;14 - 00;04;14;03
Pam
so great to have you on. Art heals all wounds.

00;04;14;03 - 00;04;25;19
Pam
I just finished reading your book, Art Cure, and I can't wait to talk to you about it. I don't know if you want to say something before I jump in with my very long list of topics.

00;04;25;19 - 00;04;29;22
Daisy
Only to say what a pleasure it is to join you and thank you so much for having me.

00;04;29;24 - 00;04;47;13
Pam
It is really exciting. I will say that in general I read every day, but I often read before going to bed at night and I found that that was a dangerous thing to do with your book because your book sparks so many ideas.

00;04;47;16 - 00;04;49;06
Daisy
Oh, it's really lovely to hear that.

00;04;49;08 - 00;05;04;22
Pam
It really was. I would finish reading, the light would turn out, and then I would sit there and be thinking about how many ways that either I do or really more honestly, how I could apply some of what you're talking about in your book.

00;05;04;24 - 00;05;10;10
Daisy
How wonderful, that's probably not not the aim to disrupt sleep. That's hardly going to help, is it?

00;05;10;13 - 00;05;34;18
Pam
Well, it I don't know. It's kind of a good reason to be kept awake at night. So I want to start with something that you say that I find it shouldn't be a revolutionary topic, but. Or statement. But I think it is that we are all innately artistic.

00;05;34;20 - 00;05;57;23
Daisy
It's such a simple thing, but it is really true. And I think it's something we very easily forget, particularly as we become adults. If we've not been lucky enough to have tuition in the arts as children, if we've not learned certain skills, we can feel like we're not artistic or not creative, and it can be very hard to overcome that mental hurdle, even though there's no scientific grounding to it.

00;05;57;25 - 00;06;13;22
Pam
I agree, but you know, we always categorize people. Oh, she is so artistic. Oh, I'm not very artistic or I'm not very creative. And your statement is, no, that is not true as humans.

00;06;13;24 - 00;06;18;27
Daisy
Exactly. We are, as I say in the book, we are actually a planet of 8 billion artists.

00;06;19;00 - 00;06;30;04
Pam
That's a wonderful, wonderful thought and a wonderful aspiration, which I hope that I hope that,

00;06;30;06 - 00;06;36;22
Pam
What do you say towards the end of your book about you don't use the term tipping point, but it's like this idea of a tipping.

00;06;36;23 - 00;06;37;29
Daisy
The seatbelt moment.

00;06;37;29 - 00;06;38;07
Pam
It's

00;06;38;11 - 00;06;39;15
Pam
what did you call it?

00;06;39;18 - 00;06;40;23
Daisy
Seatbelts moments.

00;06;40;23 - 00;07;05;00
Pam
The seatbelt moment. I love that because it is true. I'm old enough to remember never using seatbelts. And finally that point where it just became automatically you don't start driving until you get a seatbelt. But it wasn't as if we'd just first heard of that seatbelt. So it's an idea that we hear over and over, and finally it sinks in to just the way of doing it.

00;07;05;03 - 00;07;12;22
Pam
And I think your book will play a huge part. And the research you do in creating that seatbelt moment.

00;07;12;25 - 00;07;36;09
Daisy
I really hope so, because the evidence base is people will see in the book is so enormous. Now, I think actually that the missing piece in the puzzle is the public awareness about how beneficial the arts are at that large scale, to the point that just like seatbelts, people suddenly to start engaging in arts a lot more like they would with physical activity or eating their vegetables, it becomes something we much more automatically turn to.

00;07;36;12 - 00;08;01;11
Pam
That's so wonderful. So I want to back up a little bit. I know there's so many ways, but can you just name a few ways that the arts affect our health? And you have in your book both preventative and things that are actual like palliative care cures or things like that? I know you can't name everything, but just a few things that you have found in your research.

00;08;01;14 - 00;08;26;17
Daisy
The truth is, is that living a healthy, fulfilling life means different things to different people. For some people, that's about having a sense of meaning and purpose and quality of life. Day to day, high levels of wellbeing. And those are all things that we now have. Hundreds of studies showing that the arts can improve for other people, sort of fulfilled healthy life actually means reducing the risk of developing mental or physical illness.

00;08;26;17 - 00;08;56;08
Daisy
And actually people who engage regularly in the arts, that's linked with a reduced risk of developing depression, dementia, chronic pain, age related disability and functional decline. So all kinds of conditions that many of us want to try and avoid if we can. For other people, this concept of a healthy life actually means being able to manage and cope with symptoms of mental or physical illness and actually, arts engagement is an effective way of reducing symptoms of depression.

00;08;56;11 - 00;09;21;16
Daisy
Dance can be a way for people to holts help to slow the rate of motor decline in conditions like Parkinson's. Listening to music can be a way of helping to regain motor function for people following a stroke and for other people. Still, the idea of a healthy life is helping them to stay younger for longer. And actually, we even see at this level that arts engagement is related to, younger biological age and slower biological aging.

00;09;21;16 - 00;09;23;08
Daisy
As people get older.

00;09;23;11 - 00;09;58;14
Pam
It's really remarkable. And you are a scientist. So you back all this up with the studies that show this, which is what's really exciting. I think a lot of people maybe intuitively or innately believe what you're saying, but you're not just saying it. It's not anecdotal. It is backed by science. And I want to get a little bit of your background because you talk about many different arts, but it seems like a lot of the focus is on music and I'm curious about your background.

00;09;58;16 - 00;10;01;02
Pam
Do you have a musical background?

00;10;01;05 - 00;10;20;03
Daisy
I do indeed. I actually come from a family of professional musicians, and I started off as a professional pianist. I went and read music at Oxford University initially, so I thought I was going to head down that arts track. But I think, like many people, I couldn't truly pick between arts and science, and I immediately was missing as soon as I left school.

00;10;20;04 - 00;10;45;10
Daisy
Science, maths in particular. So I was offered this amazing opportunity to to train in hospitals, learning how to design and deliver arts programs. And it was absolutely transformative for me. And when I left university, I got a job at a major hospital in London where my job was to design and lead the performing arts program, and I got to see first hand just how powerful the arts can be in clinical settings.

00;10;45;13 - 00;11;08;04
Daisy
I saw young children who'd had burns, who didn't need morphine when they were distracted, by the arts workshops. And I saw people with dementia who couldn't remember their relatives visiting them, but who would sing along with the songs that musicians played and suddenly come up with all these memories. And I saw people who'd had a stroke who could actually were actually regaining motor function through activities like dance.

00;11;08;06 - 00;11;29;18
Daisy
So it for me sparked this interest in what is happening and why. But I noticed that lots of people in the hospitals often still thought of the arts as the entertainment. And I really wanted to actually be able to understand more about what these effects were. So I left the hospital and I retrained in science, particularly looking at immunology, statistics and psychology.

00;11;29;21 - 00;11;41;26
Daisy
And for the last over a decade now, I've been working as a scientist. I'm now a professor at University College London, where I actually get to look and discover what these health benefits of the arts are on a day to day basis.

00;11;41;28 - 00;12;17;01
Pam
It's really incredible. And I know that you mentioned that there are a lot more programs now that are using this sort of arts on prescription, like prescribing arts, as opposed to medicine, but you have some really remarkable stories here of individuals. What's beautiful about your book is you have the studies, you have the findings, but then you also do include stories of individuals who were really impacted by an art cure.

00;12;17;01 - 00;12;23;02
Pam
So do you have any of those that you would or could share?

00;12;23;05 - 00;12;43;09
Daisy
One of the stories that I really love is a young man called Josh, who, has cerebral palsy that developed when he was a child. That caused hemiplegia, one sided paralysis on his body. And their recommended treatment is hours and hours of hand therapy exercises. But actually, that can be very difficult for young children to want to do.

00;12;43;11 - 00;13;19;22
Daisy
So, clinicians at the Evelina Children's Hospital in London collaborated with artists and with professional magicians to turn the hand therapy exercises into magic tricks. So using circus arts as a way of helping young children to recover hand function and they run magic camps that Josh actually attended. And through this, not only did he experience major improvements in his hand function, that meant he was able to do things he never thought he would be able to do, but he got so good at magic that he actually ended up being invited to do professional performances with The Magicians from The Magic Circle, which is the most elite magic institution in the world.

00;13;19;24 - 00;13;52;04
Daisy
And at one of the performances, the magicians actually brought along in secret the Magic Circle examiners to watch his performance, who judged that it was good enough for acceptance. So he became the first ever person with cerebral palsy to be admitted to the Magic circle. And for me, this is such an amazing story because it really highlights both how much an arts program can turn someone's life around, but also how it can treat both the medical issue, but also it supported Josh with his confidence, with his mental health, with building a network of friends who were facing similar kinds of issues.

00;13;52;06 - 00;13;58;22
Daisy
And it was also a real catalyst to a completely different life and a really remarkable artistic outcome as well.

00;13;58;25 - 00;14;32;11
Pam
I'm so glad you picked that story to tell. That was one of my favorites, and I remember there being this really moving event or or occurrence in Josh's life where he went back to that camp and there was a little girl who was incredibly shy and withdrawn, and he really kind of took her under his wing and helped her to start learning these tricks, and how that then affected her confidence as well.

00;14;32;13 - 00;14;50;25
Daisy
Enormously, because of course, magic is one of these arts where it's not just about the physical movement of your hands. You've got to maintain eye contact with someone. You've got to really draw them in. You have to perform, you have to have confidence. And those are really critical skills for young people who are going through any kinds of health challenges, including cerebral palsy and hemiplegia.

00;14;50;27 - 00;15;05;19
Daisy
And yes, Josh mentored this little girl. And when she went up on stage to give her first magic performance at the end of the camp, she stood up and said, hello, my name is Emily and the only sound was her mum crying because it was the first time she ever heard her speak like that.

00;15;05;21 - 00;15;27;27
Pam
Wow, wow. It's really amazing. So I know that you also have had your own personal experience with within your family of using an art cure. Would you be willing to tell us the story of your daughter?

00;15;28;00 - 00;15;49;22
Daisy
Yeah, of course. I have to say, I felt really lucky with the story that every story that I tell, it's not a made up story. It's not a pseudonym. Everyone story is that genuine story. Their real names are very grateful for people's generosity in that. So it felt it felt good to contribute as well. My younger daughter Daphne, was born prematurely, and when she was five days old, she contracted meningitis.

00;15;49;22 - 00;16;07;28
Daisy
And we had a horrendous time in intensive care with her where everything was so touch and go, and I felt so helpless. I couldn't even touch her. But the one thing I could do was to use my voice. So I sang to her. It was Christmas time, so I just hummed Christmas carols for hour after hour to her.

00;16;08;01 - 00;16;38;04
Daisy
And my husband would tag team. We would take it in turns doing this, and immediately we could see these changes when we were doing it, these reductions in high blood pressure. These are improvements in her oxygen saturation. And part of the reason that I started doing this is I remembered these papers that I'd read about ten years ago that had been about the use of singing in neonatal intensive care units, showing that it actually could help to reduce the stress in the neonates and it could help to improve these vital, these vital signs.

00;16;38;06 - 00;16;56;28
Daisy
And over time, it could actually help them to maintain weight better and even leave hospital sooner. And for me, this was something that I actually got to witness the effects firsthand, but also realize how important it is for the mothers too, in a way of maintaining your own hope in that time and supporting your own emotions and mental health.

00;16;57;01 - 00;17;01;11
Pam
That's such an incredible story.

00;17;01;14 - 00;17;04;11
Pam
thank you for sharing your own personal story.

00;17;04;14 - 00;17;05;02
Daisy
I think

00;17;05;05 - 00;17;13;20
Daisy
we're we're very lucky. Daphne is just turned three years old now. So I'm, I feel very grateful to all the medics who were involved in it as

00;17;13;23 - 00;17;14;04
Daisy
well.

00;17;14;11 - 00;17;22;12
Pam
Okay, so since we're still talking about Daphne, I also love the detail. Don't you hang her little. She has, like, a little guitar that. Yes.

00;17;22;19 - 00;17;43;05
Daisy
The older sister. Oh, oh. The sister Adeline is, a passionate singer. She's part of a choral program. But, yeah, she's very recently started showing interest in the guitar. She loves singing along to what she calls Taylor Smift, which is a new take on her name as she analyzes the song's lyrics and tries to try to make sense of them.

00;17;43;05 - 00;17;49;21
Daisy
But she also likes strumming along. So I've recently hung her little guitar on the wall where she can access it wherever she wants.

00;17;49;23 - 00;18;18;03
Pam
I love that I, I think that that's such a helpful thing. Either if you're dealing with children or other family members or yourself, to not pack away these ways of being creative after every session, they're just there. And so it's a great reminder. And it also, I mean, I thought a lot about like, oh, I don't do the arts every single day.

00;18;18;05 - 00;18;50;09
Pam
And I thought, well, why? Well, you know, I love to play the piano, but right now my piano is squished behind furniture that we had to move to put up our Christmas tree and just these other things where it's not as accessible. So I felt that that was such a great idea, especially for children. There is another study that I really, really loved, and it was the effect of dance for patients with Parkinson and I have to say, I'm not a scientist and I know you have to do this.

00;18;50;09 - 00;19;13;20
Pam
I always felt so terrible for the control groups because that's, you know, there's a comparison between the control group, the group that was just getting exercise, and then the group that was actually participating in dance lessons. And can you just give a little bit of a breakdown of like how these different groups did?

00;19;13;23 - 00;19;33;10
Daisy
So there have now been a very large number of studies looking at the effects of dance for people with Parkinson's disease. And they're really starting to show quite a lot of consistency. That dance is can be an effective way of helping to slow motor decline. And of course, it's known with Parkinson's disease that staying mobile, continuing to move is really important.

00;19;33;13 - 00;19;52;16
Daisy
But when people are given the choice of exercise a little bit like Josh with his hand therapy exercises, it's not always something that has that same level of motivation. And I've spoken to patients who've said, well, it can feel quite soul destroying sometimes to feel that you're trying to like, learn or maintain a skill that you've been able to do for years or decades of your life.

00;19;52;18 - 00;20;13;09
Daisy
Whereas trying something new, like learning how to dance, can feel like trying a new skill. This, in dance classes as well not only bring movement, but they also bring creativity, which can support people with their mental health. They bring social components in the dance classes as well with other patients, so it can bring a more holistic approach to people.

00;20;13;11 - 00;20;36;00
Daisy
Continuing to to try and maintain motor, motor skills. And so a number of randomized controlled trials now have shown, reduced decline in motor symptoms and even sometimes improvements, particularly in some of the non-motor symptoms that people can experience, like things like reductions in libido, for example, and reductions in pain and improvements in sleep and mood.

00;20;36;03 - 00;20;57;20
Daisy
And there are lots of reasons this happens. One of them is to do with dance giving us a rhythm that we can essentially synchronize to. So when we're listening to that music, the movements that we're then doing can be linked in with the beat of that music, and that can act as a little bit like a clock internally, which can help to address some of the deficits that Parkinson's can bring in with our ability to time our movements.

00;20;57;23 - 00;21;04;03
Daisy
So there are now down to Parkinson's classes operating in 300 communities around the world.

00;21;04;05 - 00;21;29;14
Pam
That's incredible. And I want to stay sort of on the topic of music, can you talk a little bit about how music affects our brains? Like you talk about professional musicians and then even just people who practice music or use music or engage with music, I should say in everyday life, what does that do to our brains?

00;21;29;16 - 00;21;50;10
Daisy
Well, music involves so many different regions of our brain, parts of the brain that are involved in movements, in visual processing. When we're looking at musical scores for example, in auditory processing and memory and emotion. So it's really quite a good whole brain workouts. And there are a number of studies that actually show if people engage in music regularly, they commence musical training when they're quite young.

00;21;50;16 - 00;22;15;13
Daisy
It can actually lead to functional and structural differences in the brain. And there have been a number of studies that have shown that these, these, these changes can actually be associated with better brain aging. So people who are amateur musicians or professional musicians. So in other words, they have very regular arts engagements, actually have improved connectivity between regions of the brain that are more vulnerable to aging.

00;22;15;16 - 00;22;39;29
Daisy
And they also have brains that are classified as younger, in what's called brain clocks, which are sort of measures of your brain age. And in fact, these individuals, if you're very artistically engaged or your professional musician or artist, you actually have, a lower risk of developing conditions like depression, a dementia, and, a likelihood of better preservation of your cognition as you grow older.

00;22;40;01 - 00;22;51;00
Pam
That's so incredible. And then going back to the beginning of our lives, you also talk about the relationship between music and learning language.

00;22;51;03 - 00;23;15;24
Daisy
Music is actually processed a little bit differently in the brains of young infants compared to as we get older, it's actually overlaps more with the language centers in the brain, which means that if we are singing to children, those kind of melodic arches, that singsong voice that we often automatically use when we chat with babies, it's cognitively easier to process than the more monosyllabic and monotonous way that we tend to speak as adults.

00;23;15;27 - 00;23;45;17
Daisy
And so this can actually help to prepare the brain. It can help to build the architecture for language by initially building it through music in these overlapping areas. And there have been a number of studies that have shown that very young children, early years who, engage regularly in music classes actually have improvements in language acquisition. And actually we don't see that from control groups who get things like visual arts classes where you wouldn't be expecting that same linguistic benefits, but it's the same kind of participatory class.

00;23;45;19 - 00;24;06;12
Daisy
So this is one of the particular mechanisms that's improved is what's called phonological awareness. So it's your ability to discriminate between different tones and sounds within language. Be able to tell if someone is inflecting up at the end of a sentence is a question, or if they're going down. So it really builds those this core building blocks that are related to language acquisition.

00;24;06;14 - 00;24;24;05
Pam
It seems like mothers and also probably fathers, have always sung to their infants. That's just such a it seems like it's a universal, you know, multicultural thing to do. And.

00;24;24;08 - 00;24;35;06
Pam
I mean, of course I would wonder which came first, the chicken or the egg, but it is amazing that that is something that across cultures, parents do for their infants.

00;24;35;09 - 00;24;57;29
Daisy
Well, there are theories that singing evolved prior to language is a way of supporting group bonding, and that it's maintained in that way with mothers, in infants at that pre linguistic stage, particularly, as a way of supporting that interaction. So certainly from an anthropological perspective, there are some theories around that being really foundational to why and how we have music within cultures all around the world.

00;24;58;02 - 00;25;05;12
Pam
Wow. That's amazing. It's almost as if music kind of pushed us into being humans.

00;25;05;15 - 00;25;07;10
Daisy
That's a very beautiful way of looking at it.

00;25;07;12 - 00;25;13;28
Pam
Well, it's not my original idea necessarily, but I've read I don't know if you've read Susan examines.

00;25;14;01 - 00;25;15;03
Daisy
Know Susan very well.

00;25;15;03 - 00;25;16;11
Pam
Yeah. Her book.

00;25;16;12 - 00;25;19;27
Daisy
I, I'm quoted in her book as well.

00;25;19;29 - 00;25;27;03
Daisy
I'm one of the people actually interviewed for it. So I spoke about how, arts affects immune immune function and inflammation.

00;25;27;05 - 00;25;54;10
Pam
Well, that's interesting though. So this idea that she puts in her book and I'm forgetting her coauthors name. So I don't want to thank you. Thank you so much. I know Susan just through interviewing her, and that's why her name is so on the tip of my tongue. But that was a beautiful thing. I read in her book that the arts are what arts and culture are, what make us human, as opposed to the other way around.

00;25;54;10 - 00;26;08;14
Pam
And I feel like what you're saying supports that as well. There is something which I thought was funny, that you've got a very distinctive nickname when you were doing research, can you tell us what that nickname was?

00;26;08;15 - 00;26;15;17
Daisy
Indeed, I was Spit Girl, which is not a nickname anyone hopes to pick up in their lives. Is it?

00;26;15;19 - 00;26;19;02
Pam
I think it's great, but why did you get that nickname?

00;26;19;05 - 00;26;45;01
Daisy
So my PhD was in second year immunology. So this involves trying to look at the interaction between psychological processes and biological function. So I particularly specialize in looking at immune markers within people's saliva because this is a really great way of understanding patterns of inflammation. It can tell us about biological markers that have a relevance to conditions like depression, so interlinked with the psychological impacts of our experiences in life, too.

00;26;45;03 - 00;27;08;09
Daisy
So I, looks a lot at people doing arts activities like drumming and singing, and I had to collect a lot of saliva from people that I then processed in the lab to look for these tiny immune proteins, which are called cytokines. So it was it was a messy job, very unglamorous, but gave an incredible insight into how, music and other arts activities relate to our immune function.

00;27;08;12 - 00;27;21;04
Pam
Well, it's great that you did that. I'm so curious, were you building on other studies or was it sort of more intuitive to you of like, hey, I wonder what's happening when people are engaging in these activities?

00;27;21;07 - 00;27;43;08
Daisy
At that point, there had been a number of studies that had started looking at stress hormones like cortisol, and there had been some preliminary blood based studies that had looked at certain markers of immune function, particularly white blood cells, that I was particularly interested in. These proteins because there was so much research coming out at the time about the role that they played in mental health as well as in physical health.

00;27;43;10 - 00;28;03;19
Daisy
But also there was this new cutting edge technology being able to measure proteins in saliva, which, had previously been much harder to be able to measure them compared to Bloods. So I felt like I was I got very lucky in working and doing my PhD at this point, when research on cytokines and immune inflammation and mental health and saliva biomarkers was all coming together.

00;28;03;22 - 00;28;09;27
Pam
And it's probably easier to get people to spit into a tube than to give their blood for all this.

00;28;10;00 - 00;28;27;10
Daisy
And that's one of the reasons I thought this was a really exciting method to look at, is that, you know, if you're inviting people to take part in a research study that involves coming in drumming for an hour, but then you're announcing that they have to have two blood draws when they come and do that. That can actually really change the tone of the whole intervention, particularly when you're working.

00;28;27;10 - 00;28;41;00
Daisy
I was working with people who had mental health conditions, so there can be a lot of anxiety around giving blood around the pain that might be associated. So being able to work with saliva was certainly a much more ethical way of being able to work with people.

00;28;41;03 - 00;29;09;14
Pam
Definitely, definitely. I love that too. I just started over the past year, joining either drumming classes or drumming circles, and it is an amazing activity to engage in. And it was certainly one I thought, oh, I could never do that. And you just kind of dive in and you realize that, of course, everybody can do this, and there's no expectation that you are good, that you're going to become professional.

00;29;09;16 - 00;29;28;09
Pam
But the expectation is that you're drumming together and the way that you feel, especially my brain after I do this, is incredible. So you're doing studies on what we intuitively feel. And so you had the science to back up what it is that we're feeling.

00;29;28;12 - 00;29;49;14
Daisy
And a little bit like we spoke about earlier, we talked about synchrony this entrainment to beats. Of course that's what you get so strongly in drumming, the sense that you're really synchronizing. And actually, when we were running the drumming studies, by the time I stood at the back of the room for an hour listening to those beats over and over again, I could feel my own heart rate slowing down to match that beat, my breathing aligning as well.

00;29;49;14 - 00;29;56;16
Daisy
So you can see why it's such a a physical, such a visceral response that you get to an activity like a drumming circle.

00;29;56;19 - 00;30;16;23
Pam
Right. And the other thing I thought you said about music that was really interesting is that sometimes we need different types of music depending on what it is, that maybe it's something we're feeling, maybe it's a certain health issue that we're, working with and that also.

00;30;16;26 - 00;30;32;14
Pam
Especially if you took away the lyrics, it doesn't matter if it's heavy metal or something else, if it's a music that someone really enjoys, there can be the same health benefits. Can you talk a little bit about that?

00;30;32;17 - 00;30;54;10
Daisy
One of the ways that we got them, plus their own happiness out of music is that it leads to open mind release in the brain, which is one of these things many people have heard about before. But one of the very interesting things to come out of research is we don't just get the release of this pleasure hormone, dopamine, at peak moments in music, like when a chorus comes back, we also get it in anticipation of those moments.

00;30;54;10 - 00;31;17;14
Daisy
And that's because our brains build what we call mental schema, these kind of structures of where we can anticipate what's coming based on all of the songs that we've heard before. So we essentially have a kind of statistical plan in our brains of what's most likely to occur. So we find that in anticipation of when that chorus will return, we get that pleasure response knowing what's coming.

00;31;17;20 - 00;31;38;20
Daisy
But actually, if you have music where you get surprise, like when you're waiting for that chorus and then there are those extra breakbeats, or there's an unexpected twist or it modulates up a tone. It actually increases the dopamine release because your expectations have been thwarted. So you're even more sort of on edge, like, when's it going to be resolved in the way I'm expecting?

00;31;38;22 - 00;32;02;13
Daisy
And this interplay between expectation and resolution, tension and release is what really drives our, our happiness responses to engaging in music. And it's why everyone has different music that they particularly love. For some people, they'll really understand classical music. They'll have those mental schema because they've heard lots of it, and therefore they'll be really excited by that music.

00;32;02;13 - 00;32;29;19
Daisy
And knowing when you're going to have certain recapitulation of themes in a symphony for other people, they'll love completely different music. They'll love hip hop or death metal or whatever, because again, they've got different schema, and it's why it's actually really good for us to follow the genres of music that we that we like the most, because it gives us that chance to to use those expectations in our brain, and increase the likelihood of being able to predict and anticipate that pleasure.

00;32;29;22 - 00;32;40;25
Pam
I love that because you're explaining an experience that all of us have had when listening to music. And.

00;32;40;27 - 00;32;45;00
Pam
Yeah, I love especially the surprise element of that.

00;32;45;02 - 00;32;45;10
Daisy
And

00;32;45;16 - 00;33;10;21
Daisy
it's actually why some people sometimes, if you hear elevator music, like you might be in a hotel lobby and there's that kind of piped music going on. Sometimes it can just sound really bland and it can even be irritating, and that's because it doesn't have enough tension and resolution in it. It's all designed to be it's constantly pleasing as possible, but in the process, it actually robs us of the anticipation that would lead to those greater dopamine hits.

00;33;10;24 - 00;33;44;18
Pam
Yes, and I'm old enough to remember that for a while, grocery stores only played are here in the US. At least they only played the Muzak, you know, the elevator music soundtracks. And then at a certain point they switched and they often play, maybe because the age of many of the shoppers music, that is from my youth. And when I go in there and there's like an 80s music soundtrack, it actually makes me want to stay in the store longer.

00;33;44;21 - 00;34;02;19
Daisy
I mean, you are being played, I hate to tell you, but that's because this now in music psychologists have figured this out. Music that comes from your childhood. You often have the strongest, emotional ties to you actually have the greatest dopamine response to because you heard it during that emotional point in your life. You've returned to it over lots of times.

00;34;02;19 - 00;34;25;00
Daisy
It's got very strong memory tags for you. And yes, if you're in a shop where you suddenly love the music that's going to keep you in there, you want to hear more of it. It's boosted your mood. So you're feeling more positive, you're more likely to buy. And there's all kinds of psychology not around music and consumerism around which kinds of music, are going to be most effective at making you buy as you're in that shop as well?

00;34;25;02 - 00;34;33;20
Pam
Well, that is certainly true, but I still prefer it over the Muzak. Perhaps you just.

00;34;33;23 - 00;34;36;27
Daisy
Even if you know you're being played. At least you're enjoying the process.

00;34;37;00 - 00;35;12;17
Pam
Exactly, exactly. Okay, so we're going to pivot a little bit. Your book is so hopeful and encouraging, but you do you do speak about the threats to art funding right now. So I think in my mind, I always think of other countries doing so much better at funding the arts than the US does. And it really surprised me for you to quote some statistics in the UK.

00;35;12;19 - 00;35;17;22
Pam
Some countries are doing better than others and funding the arts. Can you talk about that a little bit?

00;35;17;25 - 00;35;46;22
Daisy
There are definitely some countries that have really invested a lot more in the arts. Certain countries in Europe, for example, there's been actually a deliberate investment in the arts in recognition of the value that they're bringing to society. Unfortunately, in the UK, in the US, we've witnessed quite different things over the last few years. And I am particularly concerned about this because my worry is, is that when we have funding cuts to the arts, that inevitably makes it harder for people to engage, particularly people who will be less likely to engage anyway.

00;35;46;24 - 00;36;01;11
Daisy
Because the truth is, if you're already someone who loves the arts, you'll probably still find a way to have it in your life. Whereas you have some. If you have someone who's not been lucky enough to have it as part of your childhood or have it as part of your family or community, then it probably means you're not going to have those opportunities anymore.

00;36;01;11 - 00;36;27;02
Daisy
We see the arts cut a lot in schools, and that really worries me because if young people don't engage in the arts, they're really much less likely to engage as adults. I also worry, though, because often it feels like a quick win to cut funding from arts. If there is periods of funding problems of austerity. But actually we've shown an economic modeling that every pound that gets cut in funding to the arts has consequences for health and for health care systems.

00;36;27;08 - 00;36;54;12
Daisy
So it's not so quick when in the UK, for example, we looked at monetizing the, the general health benefits of people engaging in the arts in terms of the improvements to wellbeing, the savings for the health sector and also improvements in productivity, like people's ability to work. And we found that just for working age adults alone in the UK, every year, arts engagement rates are worth 18.6 billion pounds to society.

00;36;54;14 - 00;36;56;06
Daisy
And that's against.

00;36;56;08 - 00;36;56;12
Pam
A.

00;36;56;12 - 00;37;15;13
Daisy
Fraction of that that actually goes into arts funding. So it is something I'm very passionate about and I come to in these closing chapters because I feel we need to call this out. We need to highlight when funding cuts are happening, the damage they can do, and actually why it's an investment in our societies to keep and to ring fence and to safeguard funding for the arts.

00;37;15;16 - 00;37;42;10
Pam
Well, I completely agree. I think it's sort of a vicious cycle in that, the more you cut arts, the more there's the perception that it's not important. And it could not be more the opposite. The other thing that you include in your book, which I really appreciated because I feel like I struggle with this is how to incorporate the arts in your everyday life.

00;37;42;12 - 00;37;51;10
Pam
Can you talk a little bit about some of that, your suggestions for doing that. Because I thought they were helpful. I started with the idea that I don't have enough time.

00;37;51;13 - 00;38;12;03
Daisy
I think that's when a lot of people struggle with. Well, in the book, I give people kind of a checklist of questions about what their barriers to not engaging or in the arts might be, whether it's financial, whether it's time based, whether it's believing they're not artistic, erroneously, of course, as we've discussed, or whether it's things like logistics or motivation or energy levels or whatever.

00;38;12;05 - 00;38;31;16
Daisy
And then I show all the research that's come from behavioral science about how you can overcome each of those barriers. I mean, a simple one for people who don't feel they have enough time is don't try and make new time. Substitute things you already do. So, for example, last year I actually substituted reading the news on my phone on the way to work each day for reading a novel.

00;38;31;19 - 00;38;52;06
Daisy
And that's been such an enjoyable way of starting and ending every day now. I also swapped my alarm in the mornings on my phone for playing a music track, which is a much better way of setting that mood when I first wake up. I've also substituted when I meet up with friends. We used to go for drinks or then when we met up, whereas now we try and go to a show or a gig.

00;38;52;08 - 00;39;12;24
Daisy
Just as a way of having that artistic experience alongside seeing one another. So those simple swaps I think can be, can be really good ways of starting if you feel like you've not got enough time, but then across the book, I give so much, so many more tips, particularly thinking about how you can fine tune or target the kinds of arts you're engaging in to suit particular mental or physical health challenges.

00;39;12;24 - 00;39;14;13
Daisy
As well.

00;39;14;16 - 00;39;39;07
Pam
Well, and I love that you're really very practical, gentle, forgiving. One very common sense thing you say is don't start an art binge because it's not sustainable. Don't, you know, sort of have, you know, this idea, I'm going to go to a live music show every night of the week because especially if you're my age, you're going, I've in that really quickly.

00;39;39;10 - 00;39;59;19
Daisy
But this is a well known phenomenon. I talk a lot about the parallels between thinking about how you incorporate a healthy diet as well. It is as a way of thinking, how can you incorporate us that? Can you have a five array of vegetables that like your 20 minutes of art that you do, for example? But we all know that kind of crash diets don't tend to work, and it's the same with crash bingeing on arts.

00;39;59;21 - 00;40;18;14
Daisy
The research consistently shows that for the long term health benefits, it's about regular, sustained patterns of engagement. So that's why it's better to make small changes that are sustainable and then layer on more on top of that. And actually, from a motivational perspective, once you're doing some arts in a sustainable way, people will tend to see spillover effects.

00;40;18;14 - 00;40;22;11
Daisy
They'll want to do more, they'll want to increase that behavior because they're enjoying it.

00;40;22;14 - 00;40;34;09
Pam
Yes, yes. Well, I would love to talk to you all day, but I know that you have, you know, more to do today, although it's probably pretty late for you.

00;40;34;12 - 00;40;36;02
Daisy
It is getting into bed and.

00;40;36;02 - 00;40;36;29
Pam
Reading a book.

00;40;37;02 - 00;41;04;07
Pam
Well, I don't want to keep you from that. The before you go, first of all, I just want to say this is one of the most fun scientific reads I've ever had. So I encourage anyone who's interested in science and health in the arts. And if you think you're not interested in the arts to read your book, can you tell people where to find this book and where to follow your work?

00;41;04;10 - 00;41;26;16
Daisy
The book is available in countries all around the world. It's called Art cure. It has the different cover in the US and the UK and in translation. So don't worry if you're saying different covers or even different strap lines. In the US it's called archaea. The science of how the arts can save lives. And it's available on Amazon or through other retailers as well.

00;41;26;18 - 00;41;29;29
Pam
And if they want to follow you or your work.

00;41;30;04 - 00;41;50;21
Daisy
I actually I'm not on any social media, but we do have a research group website for my incredible team which is SBB research.org. SB research.org and if you do a forward slash art cure, you can actually see loads more about the book about events and talks that I'm giving in the US and the UK over the next year.

00;41;50;23 - 00;41;54;08
Daisy
And there are lots more videos and ways to interact with us as well.

00;41;54;10 - 00;42;07;08
Pam
That is wonderful. And I'm just as a little side note, you're so inspired to not be on social media. I've also pretty much taken a hiatus from social media and I've never felt so good.

00;42;07;11 - 00;42;07;27
Pam
But thank you.

00;42;07;27 - 00;42;09;24
Daisy
Well, you can use all that saved time in arts.

00;42;09;26 - 00;42;11;13
Pam
I exactly

00;42;11;15 - 00;42;19;24
Pam
Yes, and and reading books like yours. So thank you so much Daisy. I really appreciate you and I love your book.

00;42;19;27 - 00;42;24;27
Daisy
Thank you for your kind words. It's such a pleasure to join you today.

00;42;24;29 - 00;42;39;04
Pam
And you're listening to Art heals all wounds from.

00;42;39;06 - 00;42;43;00
Pam
One.

00;42;43;03 - 00;42;54;24
Pam
Thank you so much to Daisy Fancourt for coming onto the show to talk about her book, Art cure. I'll include a link to the social Biobehavioral research group where you can follow their work.

00;42;54;29 - 00;42;58;26
Pam
Most of all, treat yourself by reading Daisy's book.

00;42;58;29 - 00;43;02;24
Pam
You'll finish it feeling inspired, I promise.

00;43;02;27 - 00;43;05;28
Pam
Going back to my story from the beginning of the show,

00;43;06;00 - 00;43;14;13
Pam
I'd love to say that having the arts in our public schools solved every inequity in the school and in the larger town.

00;43;14;16 - 00;43;17;16
Pam
It didn't. What it did do, though,

00;43;17;21 - 00;43;20;12
Pam
was allow us to build relationships.

00;43;20;18 - 00;43;21;25
Pam
Friendships.

00;43;21;28 - 00;43;36;28
Pam
Playing in band or orchestra together. Singing in the school choir or acting together in plays broke down barriers in ways that didn't seem possible. When I first stepped into the classroom as a third grader.

00;43;37;00 - 00;43;44;02
Pam
If you'd like to be in touch, you can reach me through my website. Art Heals All Wounds podcast.com.

00;43;44;05 - 00;43;46;19
Pam
Thanks for listening.

00;43;46;22 - 00;44;04;06
Speaker 1
The music you've heard in this podcast is by Ketsa, Lobo Loco and Barbara Higbie.