What If We Put Children First? Migration, Trauma, and Education with Harvard's Dr. Gabrielle Oliveira

What really drives families to make the dangerous journey to the United States? And what happens to them — especially their children — after surviving detention and family separation at the border?

In this episode, I speak with Dr. Gabrielle Oliveira, Jorge Paulo Lemann Associate Professor of Education and Brazil Studies at the Harvard Graduate School of Education. Gabrielle's new book, Now We Are Here: Family Migration, Children's Education, and Dreams for a Better Life, documents the lives of 16 families from Central and South America who experienced detention and separation at the US border in 2018 and 2019 — and how they rebuilt their lives afterward.

Gabrielle shares how she spent three years building deep, trust-based relationships with these families, and why that kind of research — done with people, not on them — matters so much. We explore the surprising role that the dream of an American education plays in the decision to migrate, why children process trauma so differently than adults, and what a truly equitable, child-centered classroom might look like.

We also discuss a quietly unforgettable moment: a first-grade morning meeting where two children, asked what they wanted for lunch, spontaneously connected over eating frozen burritos in an immigration detention center — and what that reveals about how trauma lives in children's bodies and memories.

Gabrielle's core message is both simple and urgent: what if we made policy — immigration policy, education policy — by putting all children first?

Now We Are Here is available at your local independent bookstore, on Amazon and Barnes & Noble, or directly from Stanford University Press. Find Gabrielle on Instagram and at gabrielleoliveira.com.

[00:00:12] Intro — "Do you believe art can change the world?"

[00:00:48] Pam introduces the topic — migrant family detention and separation at the border

[00:01:48] Introduction of Dr. Gabrielle Oliveira and her book Now We Are Here

[00:04:06] Interview begins — Gabrielle describes her book and the 16 families she documented

[00:05:14] Discussion of research methodology — doing research with people, not on them

[00:08:28] Gabrielle reflects on being an immigrant herself and how trust is built over time

[00:10:04] How the book idea originated and how the research focus evolved

[00:13:57] Education as a driving force behind migration — beyond just fleeing hardship

[00:15:12] Moving past the "suffering subject" narrative — immigrant families and the desire for an ordinary life

[00:19:20] How trauma affects three groups differently — parents, teachers, and children

[00:23:03] The fajita/burrito story — how a first-grade morning meeting unlocked detention memories

[00:28:19] How teachers respond to children's trauma — and why "that's in the past" doesn't work

[00:33:29] Imagining a more equitable, trauma-informed classroom

[00:38:24] The problem with over-structured early childhood education and the loss of play

[00:42:08] Gabrielle's wish list — what she hopes readers take away from the book

[00:45:43] Where to find the book and follow Gabrielle's work

[00:47:06] Pam's closing reflections and outro

Follow Gabrielle!

Website

Book, Now We Are Here

Follow Pam!

arthealsallwoundspodcast.com

Transcript

00;00;12;00 - 00;00;31;11

Pam

Do you believe art can change the world? So do I. On this show, we meet artists whose work is doing just that. Welcome to art heals all wounds. I'm your host, Pam Uzzell.

00;00;48;10 - 00;00;58;21

Pam

Right now, there's a cruel and draconian practice of detaining and separating migrant families at the border. It's difficult to imagine for most of us.

00;00;58;23 - 00;01;07;10

Pam

We all think we understand why families might take this risk, leaving behind places where they're threatened with violence,

00;01;07;13 - 00;01;12;13

Pam

or an inability to grow enough food or make enough money to support themselves.

00;01;12;15 - 00;01;15;15

Pam

But is this risky journey

00;01;15;22 - 00;01;20;11

Pam

to the United States only about what these families are fleeing?

00;01;20;13 - 00;01;30;14

Pam

What comes next for these families? I always wonder, how are these traumatic experiences processed by the parents who underwent this?

00;01;30;17 - 00;01;48;07

Pam

And how are they processed by their children? There's a new book that answer some of these questions. Gabriel Oliveira is Jorge Paulo Lemann Associate Professor of Education and Brazil Studies at the Harvard Graduate School of Education.

00;01;48;10 - 00;02;04;23

Pam

Through the creation of relationships with families and educators. Gabrielle established the trust needed for teachers, parents, and especially children, dealing with the aftermath of the trauma at the border to share their stories with her.

00;02;04;25 - 00;02;15;09

Pam

Her research led her to write the book Now We Are Here Family, migration, Children's Education, and Dreams for a Better Life.

00;02;15;11 - 00;02;21;03

Pam

What Gabrielle discovered was that for the parents who chose to undertake migration to the United States,

00;02;21;06 - 00;02;40;19

Pam

although obviously there were harsh conditions that influenced their decisions, these journeys were also motivated by a desire for their children to receive an education afterwards, grappling with feelings of doubt and guilt about what their children went through.

00;02;40;21 - 00;02;53;10

Pam

The parents of these families hold onto the hope and faith that their children will be educated and have better lives than was possible in their home countries, better lives than they'd had.

00;02;53;12 - 00;03;06;27

Pam

The children of these families are still processing trauma in situations at home and at school, where educators puzzle over the best way to help them, while also caring for all the children in their community.

00;03;07;00 - 00;03;08;24

Pam

The questions posed by Gabrielle

00;03;08;24 - 00;03;44;03

Pam

in this book are complex, and the answers are surprising. Most of all, Gabrielle wonders, what would all of this look like? Immigration and education. If we could just put children first? Not only the children of migrant families, but all children? How might our society look?

00;03;44;06 - 00;03;59;11

Pam

You want to know how you can really help me keep this show going? Follow me on your favorite listening app. So easy. Right? And if you really want to give the show a boost, leave me a five star rating or review.

00;04;06;13 - 00;04;25;10

Pam

Hi, Gabrielle. Thank you so much for being on Art heals all wounds. I am really, really looking forward to talking to you today about your latest book. Can you say a little bit about your book? What is the title and what is it about?

00;04;25;12 - 00;04;53;14

Gabrielle

Yes. No. It's so nice to be here with you. Thank you for having me. The title of my book is Now We're Here. Family, migration, children's Education, and Dreams for a Better Life. And the book documents the lives of 16 families that came from Central and South America to the United States and experienced detention and separation, often at the border, back in 2018, 2019.

00;04;53;16 - 00;05;03;03

Gabrielle

And then I'm looking at how, they basically make a life for themselves after they're reunified and the role that education and schooling plays as a

00;05;03;07 - 00;05;04;06

Gabrielle

stabilizer

00;05;04;09 - 00;05;14;15

Gabrielle

and as, as, a concept that holds hope for, for families as they build their lives in the United States.

00;05;14;17 - 00;05;49;09

Pam

Yes. And I, there are a lot of things that I appreciated about this book, but one thing I want to talk about before we really get into the content of it. Well, this was the content you really explain your approach to research. And, you know, I make documentary films and I really appreciated you talking about different ways to approach research as opposed to people feeling like research is being done on them to being with them and for them.

00;05;49;09 - 00;05;51;07

Pam

Can you talk about that more?

00;05;51;09 - 00;06;16;10

Gabrielle

Yeah. No, absolutely. And I think whenever I teach, I think a lot about folks that don't they do documentaries because in many ways you're figuring out how to tell a story. I imagine you have a ton of footage, but then you're selecting what you're going to use and the angle you're going to take, but you're trying to stay close and honest and authentic to what happened.

00;06;16;10 - 00;06;44;05

Gabrielle

Right. But we all have a point of view. There's no escaping that. And I think in research in my area, has been dominated by this idea that there is this clear, objective type of, you know, research that you can be outside and just relay the facts with nothing that it would influence you. And I just I don't buy it, you know, as, as a way to do work because we're human beings.

00;06;44;05 - 00;07;06;20

Gabrielle

Right? And things will move us more or move us less. And I think the way that I thought about doing this work has always I've always tried to be really, close to who I am without trying to mask it or pretend that I am just an objective witness that you know, that I don't have skin in the game where I feel like I do.

00;07;06;20 - 00;07;48;08

Gabrielle

I do because these are people that are letting me, be with them. I have the privilege to be close to these families and to tell parts of their stories. Right. They're trusting me. So I think with that comes a lot of responsibility. And I often feel that in my field, in academia and in the social sciences, sometimes there's this idea that, you know, the rigorous books are the ones that people are claiming to have this distance and objectivity towards it, where I think that you got to come from respect and reciprocity as you establish these relationships.

00;07;48;11 - 00;08;28;01

Pam

Well, I appreciate you saying that so much. I think this idea of objectivity can really keep us stuck in that. We don't really think about who was doing this research, what what their objective was. And the other thing I think that you're saying, which is so important, is that establishing trust is really the your most valuable asset. And you talked about respect, and I think a lot of people know when you're approaching them with respect as opposed to when you're not.

00;08;28;04 - 00;08;55;22

Gabrielle

Yeah. And I and it's interesting because, you know, I am Brazilian, I'm an immigrant myself. I've been in the US for almost 20 years. And I talk a little bit about this in the book about how how it feels to always feel like you are in between right between spaces, your identity and who you are. But it's really important to understand how people perceive you as well.

00;08;55;22 - 00;09;22;09

Gabrielle

Right. So I can tell you all day long who I think I am, but then folks can say who who they think I am, right? And I think when being this research, when folks would consider me either a friend that was visiting or often a researcher or a social worker or a teacher, or, you know, a therapist or somebody with resources that could guide them to where to get a lawyer or advocate for their kids in school.

00;09;22;11 - 00;09;46;28

Gabrielle

So those roles keep, you know, shifting in a way that that feels true to life because we're never just one thing. So I think one of the main things that I try to do in my work is also time. So to be in the lives of these families for, you know, three years where you can actually build that trust and that respect that you're mentioning, which doesn't come, you know, it's not in 24 hours.

00;09;46;28 - 00;10;04;26

Gabrielle

They say, do you want to be part of this research? And can I just start coming to your home and calling you and talking to you? It's also this idea of how they perceive you and how they think. You can also bring something to their lives and and that reciprocity.

00;10;04;29 - 00;10;25;09

Pam

Well, I'm curious to know when did you first have the idea for this research and then this book. And and I'm also curious to know did your, what surprised you and did your focus ever shift based on what you were learning.

00;10;25;12 - 00;10;52;26

Gabrielle

Yeah. No that's a great, great question I think. So in my first book, I wrote about Mexican mothers who had left their children in Mexico and migrated to New York City, but continued to parent across borders. And for me, it was really important to kind of tell the story of these women who were doing such incredible sacrifices, but could be easily painted as the women that, quote unquote, left their children, but they're actually caring for that, right?

00;10;52;26 - 00;11;20;19

Gabrielle

Their migration is to care for for their kids. So that was my first project. And at the time that I thought about, you know, this second book, I was working in a school district here in Massachusetts, and I was very much in schools and looking at how teachers were engaging with young students that came from different, different backgrounds and I started, interviewing families who would offer this information when I was at the border.

00;11;20;22 - 00;11;49;02

Gabrielle

You know, this happened to me. I was detained, my kids were taken from me, or we had to wait in Mexico for six months or. And they kept going back to the experience at the border. And I just kept thinking, okay, there's something here, obviously, that really shaped how they're thinking about their future. They're thinking about their fears, how they're thinking about their, you know, lives now in the United States.

00;11;49;10 - 00;12;20;18

Gabrielle

And I kept going back to that. But what was different for me was that usually in my research, I work with one nationality at a time, right, per se. So, Mexican population in New York City or Brazilians here in Massachusetts. And in this time around, it was about the experience at the border, regardless of your nationality and I think that for me was a pivot, and it was a change from how I usually try to understand because I really focus on the preconditions.

00;12;20;18 - 00;12;54;19

Gabrielle

Right. So why would people from Brazil start leaving so much? So I want to dedicate a lot of my time to understanding that context specifically. But in this case, everybody kept going back to this unifying, traumatic, complicated experience at the border. And this policy really impacted the lives of these children and families long term. So for me, was really important to kind of center the beginning of the project, be about that moment of what happened at the border, right.

00;12;54;22 - 00;13;57;06

Pam

Well, I want to talk about that more because it's been an appalling policy. You know, that happened and that is now back, or the immigration policy is like viciously, horribly worse even than it was. And, in 2018 and 2019. But before we do, I just want to tell you what your book highlighted that surprised me. And you can tell me if I'm getting this wrong, that this is not what you meant to say, but when I think of migration, I think of people who are fleeing something which all of these families were in different ways, you know, violence, exploitation, sometimes, you know, you don't talk about this much, but really, climate is having

00;13;57;06 - 00;14;34;06

Pam

a huge effect on migration and political realities at home. And so there is that element. But the other thing that was so interesting to me is how this idea of an American education really, really was. The other thing driving migration and I think for me, I've never thought about, well, why I've never thought about what might be the prize.

00;14;34;06 - 00;14;44;26

Pam

I've always thought of education sort of as just an effect of being here. Now, but not that it would be such a draw. Am I understanding what you found? Correct? Yes.

00;14;44;26 - 00;14;45;07

Gabrielle

Yes.

00;14;45;10 - 00;15;12;25

Gabrielle

Yes. No, absolutely. And it's so. I love hearing, you know, how people make sense because you never know you're writing and you're hoping that people are making sense. But the different interpretations are also really helpful because one of the things that, for me, was important to think about is that in in immigration, in general, in research, but also how the media usually covers immigration, we get kind of this, dichotomous story, right?

00;15;12;25 - 00;15;43;00

Gabrielle

Like this successful immigrant that, you know, through everything ended up starting their own business or what's the best at school and did everything right and becomes this kind of, you know, model of what an immigrant is. Or you get the other story, which is the suffering subject, right? The one that is escaping all the poverty and the violence and corruption and climate change and persecution and wars and starvation, you know, you name it.

00;15;43;00 - 00;16;06;21

Gabrielle

So you get that suffering subject. Right. And I think for me was really important to to go beyond those two pieces and to think about, you know, these folks as people that are looking to live a dignified life and a life that in the end of the book, you know, I call an ordinary life, which is a positive thing, right?

00;16;06;21 - 00;16;27;12

Gabrielle

Sometimes this idea of the extraordinary is what everybody is looking for. But most people want to be able to live in a safe place, send their kids to school, you know, have enough money and time to have leisure in their lives and to spend time with the people that they love. Right? It's not rocket science, right? In that, in that sense.

00;16;27;14 - 00;16;54;04

Gabrielle

And I think the more I did this research and I, you know, I was sure to get all the stories of the suffering and the and the winning right part, like the victory and all of that. But for me was really important to hear a little bit more deeper in terms of what are the things that you want, if all this stuff you already told me, we get it right, but what are the things that you as a human are thinking about and you're entitled to?

00;16;54;06 - 00;17;24;15

Gabrielle

And an education and a good education is key in how people are trying to think about a better life for their children. Right? But I often think that sometimes media and the reports, we just don't make room for people to talk about some of these things that maybe for you and me, could be a mundane everyday. Right? Like as a mom, myself, there's nothing more that I want for my kids to have a good, strong education, be healthy, and have a future right for themselves.

00;17;24;15 - 00;17;37;02

Gabrielle

But for the immigrant population that's coming, we tend to put them in a box of kind of, you know, they're here because of all the tragedy, and that's the narrative.

00;17;37;05 - 00;18;15;10

Pam

Right. And I think one of the reasons that strikes me that this is important is that that particular victim suffering narrative really places them squarely as a population who's purely just needy. As opposed to a population that is here to make something of themselves. And that could be a strong contributor to our everyday fabric of life. Their children are well-educated.

00;18;15;12 - 00;18;47;26

Pam

They're, you know, working individuals, whether that means just a job that they get or starting a business. Or, you know, and then perhaps with the education they get, their children will go a further step up the so-called ladder of success. And I think that that's a really important distinction. It's not just people, whether they're, you know, applying for asylum or not.

00;18;47;29 - 00;19;20;04

Pam

They're not just here saying, oh, help us, help us, help us. They are willing to become engaged and do the work. And I solutely I think that that's really a very important distinction. And. I do want to go back, though, to talking about this trauma that the families experienced. And it seems like, you know, they're sort of three different groups who are dealing with this trauma.

00;19;20;04 - 00;19;49;01

Pam

There are the parents, there are the teachers, and then there are the children. And there were very remarkable differences between how each group either felt about this trauma or reacted to it or, expressed it or tried to control it. So I'm wondering if you can talk about what you found, especially especially Vis-a-vis the children. That's what I'm interested in and I.

00;19;49;01 - 00;20;11;20

Gabrielle

Love your analysis. It's so spot on in terms of even I'm going to borrow from you just how, you know, the different groups that I think one of the things for me is really important was exactly what you described was to have parents perspectives, children's perspectives and educators. Right, in that, together just to show right the more type dimension.

00;20;11;20 - 00;20;42;10

Gabrielle

And I think for me, my, you know, my deepest passion in the way that I do research is definitely engaging with children, because in many ways it is, you know, even as, I teach at a university and I teach research methods and a lot of my students end up not doing work with children because it just there's more, there are more barriers that you have to go through, right, in terms of getting, permission getting consent, getting assent, getting all of that stuff to involve minors in research.

00;20;42;10 - 00;21;08;21

Gabrielle

And, and some people are kind of saying, well, it's too many burdens. So I'm just going to stay with what the adult says about the child. Right. And we lose so much in that right. Because as a society, we all function with this arc, which is an adults arc, right, beginning, middle and end. When we do an interview, when we talk to people, when we read a book, we expect this kind of organized narrative to convey a message.

00;21;08;21 - 00;21;37;04

Gabrielle

But then when children are talking to you, their narratives are all over the place, right? And they're mixing the fantastical with the real, with what matters for them, with the they're spontaneous about when they bring things to the table. So the focusing on the kids, as you know, people with fully formed thoughts and taking what they were saying face value without going around and saying, is it true?

00;21;37;06 - 00;21;59;21

Gabrielle

Is it real? Right for me was a really big piece of this work to engage with them in this way. And that means that you're around, children a lot and you're not prompting a lot. You're not asking questions. You're letting them bring up things in their own time, which demands a lot of time. Right? For you, it's different.

00;21;59;21 - 00;22;27;29

Gabrielle

If I run an interview with an educator or parent, I could do a three hour oral history, you know, about whatever happened. But with a child, it would take me months to kind of piece it together because it's in their own time of what they're talking about. So I think, for me, that was a key piece to bring the perspectives of children, but in their own words and narratives without trying to make it sound like what an adult would expect.

00;22;28;01 - 00;23;03;18

Pam

Right. And one thing that I found fascinating, well, I know you talk a lot about the parents sort of feelings of guilt that their children had to experience that trauma. But one thing I found fascinating about the kids is that you never really knew what particular activity in school would prompt their desire, I guess, or need to talk about this trauma.

00;23;03;18 - 00;23;32;01

Pam

And they didn't necessarily speak about it in a dramatic way. It was in a very matter of fact way. One of the stories I loved was the question about what will you choose for lunch today? And I'm wondering if you can talk a little about this one child, how that took him back to this moment of being in detention.

00;23;32;03 - 00;23;58;28

Gabrielle

Yeah. So for those those of you who know about elementary education right there in the United States, at least morning meeting is a big moment right in K through five where kids are sitting usually on a rug, and the teacher is going to talk about the weather, the day, the plan for the day. And often the teacher will go around asking if the kids brought lunch from home or if they're going to buy lunch at school.

00;23;58;28 - 00;24;18;16

Gabrielle

So that was the beginning of, you know, a Tuesday morning in this first grade classroom. And the teacher was going around asking, you know, did you bring lunch from home or are you going to buy lunch from school? And the kids said, well, what's lunch at school? Right. What's what's the option? What's the, as my child calls it, right.

00;24;18;17 - 00;24;41;20

Gabrielle

The main what's the main, the main lunch. Or I would say the hot lunch. And the teacher says, oh, for today's fajitas. And then some of the kids are like, what is that? So she says, you know, fajitas are this. And she describes what it is. And then first, a young girl Flor, she she blurts out and says, oh, I know what that is.

00;24;41;24 - 00;25;09;10

Gabrielle

That is the food that they gave us when we were in that prison. Right. And she just says that in that, you know, going around in the circle, the kids are there knee to knee, crisscross applesauce. You know what? Everybody knows. And then she says, you know, and it was frozen in the middle. So she's talking about burritos, which are, you know, we know that in Ice detention centers and in immigration detention centers, they're distributed widely.

00;25;09;13 - 00;25;40;23

Gabrielle

And they are frozen and they're not, you know, often completely defrosted. So there are frozen parts in the middle. So she was talking about that. And then this other boy says, I know what you're saying. It happened to me too, right? This is something that I also ate when I was in this prison. So they bond over that experience on a Tuesday morning at 9 a.m., when the teacher was just asking a very benign question, you know, what are you going to eat for lunch?

00;25;40;26 - 00;26;04;09

Gabrielle

Which goes to show, you know, I think two things. One thing, how salient that that was and that continue to be for the kids, that was still top of mind that it was very much part of their existence right at that moment, but also to the teachers, you know, inside the trust that these kids felt that they could blurt that out regardless of what happened after.

00;26;04;09 - 00;26;08;05

Gabrielle

Right. But they felt that they could see that in the classroom.

00;26;08;08 - 00;26;16;18

Pam

Right. And gosh, so many things are like in my mind right now.

00;26;16;21 - 00;27;09;25

Pam

Not only just the trust, but whether it's trauma or not, the experience and knowledge that these two children wanted to share, that this particular type of food, whether it's a burrito or fajitas, was not unknown to them because they had this certain life experience that other kids in the classroom did not have. And I feel like. You know, on the one hand, I feel like it would be so beautiful just for there to be this openness where kids who have gone through that type of trauma or any other type of trauma that comes to their mind at any point in the school day, it would just be open to talk about it.

00;27;09;28 - 00;27;26;17

Pam

But on the other hand, I also understand what might be going through the mind of the teacher, particularly right now. There's this sense of not wanting to necessarily out your student. As a recent.

00;27;26;19 - 00;28;11;11

Pam

Migrant, I suppose, would be the right word, but there's probably a lot of fear in teachers minds that they don't want this other child in the classroom innocently going home and saying, oh, so-and-so, you know, went through a detention center coming into the United States. And so I can imagine that. But you also talk about this concept of time and compartmentalizing things in a way that just doesn't really work with children, which is that that's the past and it's not here anymore, and this is the present, and then the future is going to be great, hopeful.

00;28;11;14 - 00;28;19;24

Pam

And, you know, that's not really how trauma works, right? Trauma doesn't just like oh that's the past.

00;28;19;25 - 00;28;42;05

Gabrielle

Oh that's absolutely yeah. No that's a great point. And I think it's and the teachers to your point, I think a lot of what they were, they were trying to be protective of the kids and kind of saying, you know, wow, well you're okay. You're you're, you know, now you're here and you're safe. You're safe here now everything's going to be fine.

00;28;42;08 - 00;29;04;06

Gabrielle

Because they were very nervous about kids staying in that trauma because for them, right. That was in the past. Don't relive the past. Let's forge a better future in that way. But for children, it just percolated. It came at different times and it appeared in their minds at different times. And maybe something triggered. Maybe they just wanted to share, right?

00;29;04;06 - 00;29;26;06

Gabrielle

Again, if you have been in a classroom with five and six year olds, they'll say the most random things and, you know, elementary school teachers are just, you know, bless their hearts because they just take on sometimes the kids are offering an entire family gossip about my uncle did this, and then this happened. And the teacher's like, okay, let's, you know, that's their business.

00;29;26;08 - 00;29;54;19

Gabrielle

But so you know that that's also part of a five and a six year old behavior. Anyway. But a lot of what these teachers are trying to do is put a lid on it. So in their mind it wouldn't retraumatize the child. But also exactly we you explain which is it would make other kids nervous. So so in their minds they're thinking, well, what if this other kid goes home and tells their parents, oh, I was in class today and such and such so that they were in a detention center.

00;29;54;19 - 00;30;24;12

Gabrielle

And then what if this parent calls the school and says, what are you guys talking about in a kindergarten classroom prison, you know, which I'm not opposed. I think we should. And it's okay. Other ways, you know, but there are ideas about children about like, what they can and cannot be engaged with. And I and I always think about, you know, children of color, they grow up already with parents telling them, you know, if you encounter law enforcement, these are the things you have to do.

00;30;24;14 - 00;30;49;28

Gabrielle

This is how you got to, you know, behave and all of that. So three year olds are already hearing a lot of that, you know, for, for for kids of color. But then a lot of the white kids and white parents feel very protective that their kids shouldn't be hearing some of these things. That may be more traumatizing, but why is that three year old child of color okay to hear about that?

00;30;49;28 - 00;31;11;26

Gabrielle

And the other one is not right. So I think it's it's also a piece on equity of trying to think about if we're really trying to think about allyship and what it means to coexist in a community. And be there for one another. There are ways to engage, you know, children together. But the teachers are just thinking, oh, I got to get to math.

00;31;11;26 - 00;31;29;08

Gabrielle

And I got to do my first reading lesson right. I don't have time to do a social justice lesson at this point in because I just I haven't been trained for this. I don't know enough. I'm nervous about not doing all the lessons that I have to, because my principal is going to come knock on my door and say, what are you doing?

00;31;29;11 - 00;31;42;12

Gabrielle

Why are you not teaching, quote unquote, you know, so there are a lot of pressures on the teachers. And and I think, you know, as a society, we often expect teachers to fix everything, and they can't and they shouldn't.

00;31;42;15 - 00;32;23;08

Pam

Right, right. That's such a great point. I mean, I, I just remember too when my children were young, they will come home with the most with stories that are completely out of context. And my kids at least had a way of of presenting this information as the most like for me as a parent, thinking like what? You know, what do you mean that this happened and I was that parent who would, you know, get in touch with the teacher and say, you know, my child said this was said or happened, and then the teacher would say, yes.

00;32;23;08 - 00;32;49;10

Pam

And here's the context. So I, I completely get it from and I also I teach at a university level, it's very different. But there's often trauma in those classrooms too. I think the difference is that you're dealing with adults and that you could either in an office hours or something like that, explore this in a way that's not all in the classroom.

00;32;49;10 - 00;33;29;19

Pam

That is not available to elementary school teachers. Yeah, I but I do wonder my question for you was if you had to imagine a school that was you're what you just said, which I thought was really nicely said, was more equity based. Could you imagine another way of helping children who had gone through such a traumatic event, event feel like they could not have to box all of that up or be redirected in the classroom?

00;33;29;21 - 00;33;49;26

Gabrielle

Right. And one of the things that I think could be different, and I think there are many teachers doing this, and I have some great, you know, friends who were in my research project and I've become friends, because I'm just such a fan of everything that they do. And, and just their hearts are in the right place, right to to do that.

00;33;49;26 - 00;34;16;01

Gabrielle

But one of the things that I try to always talk to the teachers in the trainings and everything, is to bring together the assignments for the lesson, closer to what the kids are trying to express about themselves and their stories and simple ways of doing that is, you know, a simple way is, you know, writing about it, drawing about it, telling a story about it and allowing for that right to happen.

00;34;16;01 - 00;34;35;26

Gabrielle

And and we did a lot of that in the classrooms. And I would, you know, I'd pose a simple prompt for the kids in the classroom and say, draw your home and label it right about. And then in that drawing, so many things would come up. And one of the kids in the research and drew the border, right, the US-Mexico border.

00;34;35;28 - 00;34;57;17

Gabrielle

And so with that, that is an artifact that for the teacher, could open up a conversation with the child. But the school psychologist can also, you know, because the the child already produced an artifact that can be used. It's not even that we're creating assumptions that we're trying to figure out, you know, is this child want to talk about this or not?

00;34;57;24 - 00;35;18;21

Gabrielle

But the child offered it. So when somebody offers you a piece of their vulnerable selves and the other part doesn't follow through, you know, just think about how we all feel, right? If you're making a new friend and you say something that you feel like is very vulnerable and they're like, okay, thanks for sharing. And they move on with your kind of like, okay, maybe I shouldn't have said that.

00;35;18;21 - 00;35;40;13

Gabrielle

This was not the right venue. You are overthinking, you know? So it's bringing closer to literacy. So let's think about a writing project. Right. Let's think about, how we're going to sound out the letters based on what they wrote in this drawing. So you bring what children are trying to share closer to the standards that you're trying to teach.

00;35;40;13 - 00;35;58;01

Gabrielle

Right. So we try to do a lot of that to make the lives of teachers a lot easier. Choose a book for the morning meeting to read about that discusses some topics so that children can think to themselves, I feel seen this is a part of me. I'm part of this, right? So you can do a lot of that.

00;35;58;01 - 00;36;30;18

Gabrielle

But obviously my biggest dream was would be to reinvent everything that we know, especially about elementary education, and for that to be a lot closer to early education, you know, center based education, where there's more play and there's more drama in terms of theater and reenacting and just more words being expressed as opposed to filling out sheets, you know, with additions and letter sounds and all of that which I know are we got to do it.

00;36;30;18 - 00;36;49;22

Gabrielle

So I feel like I'm stuck in between my pragmatic self, which is when I'm with my teachers, I'm always trying to think, how do I make your jobs easier for you? And how do we bring what we know from these findings into your classroom, which is what I call the wiggle room? How much wiggle room do we have today?

00;36;49;22 - 00;36;51;11

Gabrielle

Right? Can we do an activity that.

00;36;51;11 - 00;36;52;07

Pam

Feels a little bit more.

00;36;52;07 - 00;37;23;17

Gabrielle

Loose? That is not, as you know, tightly wired to this particular standard? So I have all of that in the toolbox. And then my idealistic self is thinking, you know, they should be playing and building and imagining, because then you're going to let a lot more of that come to the classroom, and you wouldn't even shock you because you'd be so many moments that the kids we talk about that, that for this teacher that was going around about what the H is like, oh my gosh, what do I do with this?

00;37;23;19 - 00;37;44;21

Gabrielle

If everybody's playing and have more of that flexibility, you would get more content from the kids, which would increase how fast you get to know them. And then you can tailor assignments and learning closer to their needs. Right. But a teacher on their own can't do that. It has to be a complete systems change.

00;37;44;23 - 00;37;48;15

Pam

Right? Well.

00;37;48;17 - 00;37;50;13

Gabrielle

Being was like a big no.

00;37;50;13 - 00;38;24;17

Pam

But being the age that I am, I mean, I went to school for most of my life, 12 in Arkansas, which was considered a very, very poor. It was a poor state. And poor education, but I value it so much compared to the early education that my children got in California. The idea of doing a worksheet when when my kids first hit even kindergarten, I was appalled that, first of all, they had homework.

00;38;24;19 - 00;39;02;02

Pam

Second of all, that they were expected to read and write by the end of kindergarten. It's like, that's insane. And then the lack of play, the lack of play, the lack of art, the lack of a lot of things that were so valuable. For me, even in a one of the poorest states in terms of at that time in education and now being in one of the wealthiest states and just seeing the way that early childhood education is approached was appalling to me.

00;39;02;04 - 00;39;08;20

Pam

It's like, what are you why should my child come home and do an hour's worth of homework at first grade? Yeah.

00;39;08;21 - 00;39;45;01

Gabrielle

Oh my gosh. It's. Yeah, because it's the idea of the repetition. And and I think we're moving even more towards that with what we're seeing with the battle. You know, for science of reading and all of that, that we're seeing the pendulum keep swinging right, like back and forth and we lose sight of, you know, kids need to be outside running, playing, building, talking, making friends and then in the classroom with good, solid instruction hours where they're learning something else, implementing, trying out, making mistakes.

00;39;45;01 - 00;40;09;01

Gabrielle

Right. So that's kind of where we're where we should be thinking more about. And I think with the with what kids were saying in the classroom, every time I give a talk on the book and I give some of the examples of what the kids kids say, most people are so shocked. And I think because I've been doing this, you know, for so long, I've come to expect their brilliance in the way they're articulate.

00;40;09;01 - 00;40;30;02

Gabrielle

Because if you listen closely and if you allow for that time, you're going to get a lot of that. But if it's not, if it's always, you know, a top down instruction and then you're not going to get, you know, that that piece as much. And I think we're missing out. And it's like our education system has improved in the last few decades.

00;40;30;02 - 00;40;34;16

Gabrielle

So it's not like we're doing something that's working.

00;40;34;19 - 00;40;40;02

Pam

Well the other thing I'm thinking as you're speaking is that.

00;40;40;04 - 00;40;44;06

Pam

I wish that.

00;40;44;08 - 00;41;13;06

Pam

The broader community of this particular school could all be brought into this in terms of many people in that school would not have had that same experience of a migration that that involved this trauma at the border. And it would it would be lovely for that to be a shared context among the entire school community. But.

00;41;13;08 - 00;41;24;24

Pam

Being a pessimist, I worry that that would not be possible right now. I don't know. What do you.

00;41;24;27 - 00;42;07;28

Pam

I have a question for you which maybe could address that a little bit. There's so much more in your book, and people should read it, because I think it will be really, really. Very beneficial to our understanding of these families who have had to go through this. But if you had a wish, your wish list of two overlapping things, what people could take away from this book and how people would think about this issue in terms of, equity, what would that wish be?

00;42;08;00 - 00;42;36;28

Gabrielle

Yeah, I think for me is that from the book, I would say that I hope people would take away that if we all think about the well-being of children, which I think I want to believe that regardless of which political view, people hold or how they feel about, you know, one thing or another, we can agree that children shouldn’t suffer, shouldn't be away from their parents, shouldn't experience trauma.

00;42;36;28 - 00;42;58;16

Gabrielle

Right. And in this way, that could be avoided if we focus on the, the kids in that way. I my wish is that people can come out of this and say, okay, all right, so let's make policy that doesn't hurt children. We can still make policy on immigration, obviously, because it's a sovereign state. You know, I'm not going to argue with that.

00;42;58;18 - 00;43;26;16

Gabrielle

As much as, you know, borders were drawn in a very artificial way through wars and occupation and taking things. They exist. And again, I'm a pragmatist. I know what a sovereign state is and everything. And so it's not a but it's and what do we do if children's well-being is at the top of our priority list? Would we still be implementing the policies that we're seeing happening?

00;43;26;22 - 00;43;47;23

Gabrielle

Would that still be the case? You know, if you're thinking a five year old shouldn't be afraid of going to school and coming home and not finding their mother, right. Teenagers shouldn't be wondering if they're going to become the head of the household now. They're both parents were detained and sent to a country that they don't even know where they are.

00;43;47;24 - 00;44;19;21

Gabrielle

Right? That all of a sudden there put into, high poverty state. Whereas before they weren't they had income and they were able to study and make through you know so we are so that's I think my wish for, for people reading the book is that what happens if we put kids first? Not saying immigrant kids, kids of color, Latino kids, children because they supposed to be all of our kids.

00;44;19;21 - 00;44;29;05

Gabrielle

Right. So what happens if we do that? How can we make it different? You know, the policies that we draw.

00;44;29;08 - 00;44;58;19

Pam

Yeah. And I'm hoping that your book is going to be have a role in helping people to think about that. So thank you. I know it was so much work and so much research and so much time. But you write about it with such, you know, such a highly, highly valuable time that you spent. So thank you for doing this and for writing this book.

00;44;58;22 - 00;45;22;29

Gabrielle

Thank you for reading. Thank you for having me. For me, it's I mentioned this before. It's hard to know how it will resonate. Unfortunately, even though I wrote about this from, you know, a previous policy, it applies now how we're thinking about family separation and detention and all of that. So, you know, unfortunately, still very relevant. I wish it wasn't.

00;45;23;01 - 00;45;43;08

Pam

Yes, it's it's very relevant. It's very timely. And I want you to share with people where they can find this book. And, you know, I don't know if you're on social media or not, but where they can follow, your work that you're doing, if you would share that, I think that would be great.

00;45;43;11 - 00;46;08;28

Gabrielle

Yes. So I am on Instagram. So Gabrielle Rivera, you can find me there on Instagram. I'm also at my website, which is my name, Gabrielle rivera.com. And then you can, you know, there information there about when I'll be giving talks or, or different things. And for the book, I always recommend if you can order at your independent bookstore, that's usually my recommendation.

00;46;08;28 - 00;46;28;11

Gabrielle

That means it's going to take a little time. They may have to order in or something, but if not, you can always order on any of you know, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, all of those, or go straight to the press, Stanford University, press and order straight from them as well.

00;46;28;13 - 00;46;33;16

Pam

Okay. Well, thank you so much, Gabrielle. I really appreciate your work.

00;46;33;19 - 00;46;38;10

Gabrielle

Thank you. Thank you for all that you do, Pam, I appreciate it.

00;46;38;12 - 00;46;52;17

Speaker 1

And you're listening to Art heals all wounds from.

00;46;52;19 - 00;46;59;12

Speaker 2

One.

00;46;59;15 - 00;47;06;26

Pam

Thank you so much to Gabrielle Oliveira for coming on the show to talk about her book. Now We are Here.

00;47;06;29 - 00;47;10;17

Pam

This book really expanded the picture I had of migrant families,

00;47;10;19 - 00;47;15;29

Pam

I'll put links to Now We Are Here and Gabrielle's Instagram account in the show notes.

00;47;16;02 - 00;47;30;16

Pam

If you want to reach me, you can find me at Art Heals All Wounds podcast.com. I'm not on social media at the moment, so if you know someone who'd appreciate this show, please share. Thanks for listening.

00;47;32;05 - 00;47;36;14

Pam

The music you've heard this podcast was by Ketsa and Lobo Loco.