No More Side-Dish Art: Nikko Kimzin on Community-Led Placemaking

What happens when artists are brought in at the beginning of public space design — not as an afterthought, but as essential problem solvers? In this episode I sit down with Nikko Kimzin, founder of Kimzin Creative, an arts and equity consulting firm based in Petaluma, California. Nikko shares how his team uses the power of art to unlock community imagination, inform city planning, and build public spaces that truly reflect the people who use them. Plus, Nikko makes a passionate case for radical joy as a daily practice and a force for social change — and honestly, I left this conversation feeling more hopeful than I have in a long time.

Timestamped Highlights

• 0:47 — I share my thoughts on the lack of community-designed public spaces, including some honest reflections on my own neighborhood in Deep East Oakland
• 2:41 — I introduce my guest Nikko Kimzin and the work of Kimzin Creative
• 6:19 — Nikko explains his "why": uplifting the human spirit through art and community
• 11:07 — Nikko's origin story: from a Mexican-American household to musical theater and New York City
• 13:18 — The turning point: how Nikko shifted from performer to producer and educator, telling more complex stories for marginalized communities
• 18:40 — The Petaluma River Park project: a two-year community engagement process for a 35-acre park
• 24:34 — "I wish this could be…" — how a simple sticker activity unlocked community dreams
• 29:02 — Why a patch of grass is not a park: Nikko makes the case for raising the standard for public spaces
• 38:07 — Radical joy as a daily practice and a tool for social change — this part of our conversation really stayed with me
• 47:13 — Nikko's passionate case for artists as problem solvers in policy, planning, and beyond

Guest Links

• Website: nikkokimzin.com
• Consulting: kimzincreative.com
• Substack: Nikko Kimzin — Advice from a Nobody
• Instagram & TikTok: @nikkokimzin

If you enjoyed this episode, please follow Art Heals All Wounds on your favorite podcast app and leave a five-star rating or review. You can get in touch with me at arthealsallwoundspodcast.com or find me on Substack.

Music by Ketsa and Lobo Loco.

Transcript

00;00;12;00 - 00;00;31;11

Pam

Do you believe art can change the world? So do I. On this show, we meet artists whose work is doing just that. Welcome to art heals all wounds. I'm your host, Pam Uzzell.

00;00;47;08 - 00;00;55;00

Pam

In this episode you will hear me criticize Oakland just a little bit about its lack of public spaces.

00;00;55;02 - 00;01;23;02

Pam

To be clear, Oakland has some beautiful public spaces. Lake Merritt, for example, is a beloved and much used community space that also provides critical habitat to a lot of birds. The Jack London waterfront along the estuary is an amazing place to be on a beautiful sunny day and old town Oakland is absolutely gorgeous and really kind of magical.

00;01;23;05 - 00;01;28;13

Pam

In my opinion, it ranks right up there with some of the most beautiful downtowns in the world.

00;01;28;16 - 00;01;41;21

Pam

When I look around my neighborhood, though, I don't see those kinds of public spaces, those multi-use community spaces, and there is room where they could be.

00;01;41;23 - 00;01;51;16

Pam

Does your city have public community spaces? Probably. When you look around your city spaces, do you feel like they are for you?

00;01;51;18 - 00;02;02;12

Pam

Do you see that space as meeting your needs, your desires? Do you feel welcome there? Do you feel safe there? If the answer is no,

00;02;02;15 - 00;02;07;04

Pam

what do you dream that that space might be instead?

00;02;07;06 - 00;02;14;20

Pam

How do you achieve this kind of investment? Not only in your city, but in more underserved areas in your city?

00;02;14;22 - 00;02;23;23

Pam

And if you were to get funding for a project for a public space, how do you create something that the community really wants?

00;02;23;26 - 00;02;40;29

Pam

A space for families, for seniors. What about young people? What do they want? Those are just a few of my questions. Finding answers to those types of questions are exactly what the guest on today's episode does.

00;02;41;02 - 00;02;47;05

Pam

Nikko Kimzin is a nationally recognized artist, director, and equity consultant.

00;02;47;07 - 00;02;51;04

Pam

Nikko founded the Petaluma, California based Kimzin Creative,

00;02;51;04 - 00;02;58;20

Pam

an arts and equity firm that's transforming how communities imagine and build the future.

00;02;58;22 - 00;03;08;19

Pam

As an artist, Nikko is all about centering community needs and visions and being a bridge to city planners as they design public spaces.

00;03;08;22 - 00;03;29;15

Pam

For Nikko, artists can no longer be an afterthought in these kinds of projects. Sort of like the cherry on top. They need to be at the table from the beginning as problem solvers, and as those who have the skills to center the community's desires so that this new public space serves them.

00;03;29;18 - 00;03;34;22

Pam

As Nikko says, what a beautiful way to design these new worlds.

00;03;34;25 - 00;03;45;15

Pam

Now, all of this introduction doesn't begin to describe the leadership, the vision, and the joy that is Nikko Kimzin.

00;03;45;18 - 00;04;02;28

Pam

I hope when you listen to our conversation that you'll take away a little bit of that joy for yourself.

00;04;03;01 - 00;04;18;06

Pam

You want to know how you can really help me keep this show going? Follow me on your favorite listening app. So easy. Right? And if you really want to give the show a boost, leave me a five-star rating or review.

00;04;20;18 - 00;04;31;02

Pam

Hi Nikko, it is really great to have you on the show. I'm so glad that you agreed to come onto Art Heals All Wounds and talk about the work that you do.

00;04;31;05 - 00;04;35;24

Nikko

Thanks, Pam. Super excited to be here. I love talking about the work that I do!

00;04;35;28 - 00;04;43;10

Pam

That is fantastic. And I do want to say before we get too deeply into it, I did watch you on the California Arts and Council

00;04;43;10 - 00;04;55;20

Pam

panel that you moderated and your energy is amazing. And also, I want to say I loved your outfit. You kept referring it as the Blue Origin space suit.

00;04;55;22 - 00;05;02;27

Nikko

That's right, thank you so much. Listen, wear something so people know you and they always referred to me as Katy Perry in The Blue Origins, when I could have been Gayle.

00;05;03;01 - 00;05;07;20

Pam

Oh, come on, you. Between you and Katy Perry, you wore it much better.

00;05;07;22 - 00;05;10;01

Nikko

So thank you so much. That's what everybody's saying.

00;05;10;03 - 00;05;16;02

Pam

And I love it, I wanted one I wanted was I saw that I was like, God, that is the coolest jumpsuit ever.

00;05;16;05 - 00;05;29;16

Nikko

I love, I love, I love! Hysterical! literally I wore that and then so many for weeks after, people like you're the guy in the blue jumpsuit. And I was like, thank you. So here we are. Let's see. We’ll see, I have to innovate my next outfit for the California Arts and Culture Summit. We’ll see..

00;05;29;21 - 00;05;36;07

Pam

Yeah. Well, I yeah, I mean, you could look to Katy Perry for inspiration again, but probably not.

00;05;36;09 - 00;05;40;11

Nikko

Probably not. We'll diverge. We'll go to some places.

00;05;40;13 - 00;05;41;17

Nikko

That's right.

00;05;41;19 - 00;06;07;13

Pam

So I know that you do a lot of different things, but mostly you are in, community arts based consulting person. That's what your organization does. Yeah. And so could you tell me more about your organization and what does it mean? I mean, back when I was just a young person, that is not something I would have ever even heard of.

00;06;07;13 - 00;06;11;26

Pam

And of course, now there are more, but there should be many, many more.

00;06;11;26 - 00;06;19;10

Pam

So tell me about your organization, the name and what it is that you do.

00;06;19;12 - 00;06;43;11

Nikko

Yeah. Well, I'll say first, to start out, it's crucial to know because it leads into the organization as my why, as just a human walking on this planet is my why is to uplift the human spirit. That has been my why for years, years. And the way that that manifests in the how of it all is that I'm an artist, I'm a cultural architect, I'm a performer, and as well as the founder of Kimzin Creative and so Kimzin Creative,

00;06;43;11 - 00;06;44;16

Nikko

It's an arts and equity.

00;06;44;16 - 00;06;45;23

Nikko

Consulting group.

00;06;45;26 - 00;07;17;26

Nikko

we're a team of multi-hyphenate artists who are the synapse between art, business, education and community. And we really we use the power of the arts to unleash the creative capacities of our communities, transforming where they live, play, and thrive. And so what that really means is using the arts to unlock our communities imagination on placemaking, on policies, on design, anything that they will be beneficiaries of and users of.

00;07;17;26 - 00;07;39;26

Nikko

We need artists in the room connecting communities to their wildest dreams and telling policy makers, park planners, this is what the community has dreamed of. Now your turn is to use your specific abilities to make those happen in reality. And so that's where we really thrive. And our work thus far has informed over $100 million in public investment in policy.

00;07;39;28 - 00;07;45;06

Nikko

Over the course of 30 years of civic planning. And so we're super excited to see,

00;07;45;09 - 00;08;00;25

Nikko

what we all know to be true as artists is that art can change the world. But what does it look like when art is seen as public infrastructure? And how are we creative leaders in in in rooms where are typically devoid of creativity and artistry.

00;08;00;25 - 00;08;07;01

Pam

Right. And, you know, I actually was thinking of you yesterday and the work that you do because

00;08;07;01 - 00;08;14;16

Pam

I was in San Francisco on the Embarcadero and there's that huge, huge, huge,

00;08;14;18 - 00;08;25;22

Pam

it's not a statue. It's a sculpture of the woman and it's I mean, it's a beautiful sculpture, but it was talk about no community input.

00;08;25;25 - 00;08;53;10

Pam

So many people were just walking by like, hey, we didn't ask for this, you know? And I just was thinking about you, and I thought, this is what happens. It is a beautiful sculpture, and maybe some people might want it somewhere, maybe others didn't. But this is what happens when artists and community are not in the room, is that something is plunked down according to someone's esthetic, not the community’s.

00;08;53;13 - 00;08;58;25

Pam

And there it is, and the community’s living with it, whether they like it or not.

00;08;58;27 - 00;09;02;00

Nikko

Well, you know what? And I'll zoom out, Pam, and say, first of all, that artist

00;09;02;00 - 00;09;16;18

Nikko

has their workshop in Petaluma where I also live. They're fabulous artists. But I agree with you. When we look at these moments of who asked for this, right, like there's this very controversial public art that happens in all these communities, and you walk upon it and you go, did we spend money on this?

00;09;16;25 - 00;09;35;04

Nikko

Are these my tax dollars? What is this? Right. And so there's there's a part of the process where we can no longer exist in a world, and we're seeing it now within government and everything else, is that from top down approaches no longer work for us. They do not feel good for us. They do not feel good for our communities.

00;09;35;04 - 00;09;53;08

Nikko

And especially when when people have a hard time separating. These are my dollars. They should be serving me, right? And so where did you ask me? Where does you keep me informed or in the process? Where did you ask my opinion? Because I have a say in what I want. And what they're really asking for is they want to be participants of the verb of democracy.

00;09;53;11 - 00;10;15;08

Nikko

So where are we giving them the opportunity to represent themselves, to show up and not show up in a transactional way in surveys or, you know, surveys that governments post on one website? That's page number 75 that nobody's going to look at in one language. It's how are you in relationship with either that local government, the public art office.

00;10;15;08 - 00;10;38;06

Nikko

Right. How are you relationship with them? And how can your relationship with them better help manifest, you know, arts, artworks, public arts that then serve you and reflect your values and your community's values? So yeah, to your point, that's a beautiful example of how are we listening? And how are we being in relationship with the community that we're professing to serve, which to serve, I have issues with.

00;10;38;09 - 00;10;41;01

Nikko

But to to be in collaboration with.

00;10;41;03 - 00;11;07;05

Pam

Right, right, right. And I'm going to ask you about some of the projects that you've done and how you incorporated that community voice in there. But before we do, I do want to back up a little bit because I really appreciated your, I always call it, you know, your artist origin story. You know, you were clearly very creative from a very young age.

00;11;07;05 - 00;11;15;18

Pam

And I would love for you to talk about that and where your initial trajectory took you and why you stepped out of that.

00;11;15;20 - 00;11;31;06

Nikko

Yeah, it's a great question. So, I was, I come from this Mexican-American household, that is, I will say, debarked and talentless when it comes to the performing. So where I got it, I don't know, but,

00;11;31;06 - 00;11;38;19

Nikko

I was in a top hat and a cane with white gloves dancing to, like, salsa and Michael Jackson in my living room.

00;11;38;19 - 00;11;59;21

Nikko

So it was a very confused individual, but I knew that I had this want to perform and just put on shows in my living room. And from there, my mom, said, you're really loud. I think the high school theater department would really like you. And so that's where I went. And I really was the first time that I found, you know, I’d done sports, I did all these activities and groups, but I really found my people, right?

00;11;59;25 - 00;12;13;18

Nikko

My people. And there's, there's we know the jokes and that everything about theater people, but theater people are just living on a frequency that is ten above, right? And that really are hungry for life. Laugh louder, feel deeper.

00;12;13;23 - 00;12;19;07

Nikko

it was a place where I felt like I could really be myself, my authentic self and that that was supported and celebrated.

00;12;19;07 - 00;12;19;28

Nikko

And so,

00;12;20;01 - 00;12;39;10

Nikko

that was when people talk about this, you know, this co-opted word of belonging. I guess that's where that's where I felt like I belonged in and around a culture of people that wanted to live life to the fullest and were going hungry after it, regardless of what people cared. And so that was my first, I guess, drop of like, oh, this is what belonging tastes like.

00;12;39;13 - 00;12;47;17

Nikko

And then from there, I really I went to school and I got a BFA in musical theater where I studied Mexican-American studies as a minor. I also then,

00;12;47;17 - 00;12;58;28

Nikko

went directly from there to New York City, spent a decade plus as a performer, and from there this was pre Hamilton where I was, you know, in a file of a casting director.

00;12;58;28 - 00;13;11;29

Nikko

My agent, as a Latino with the thick accent, gun and in a gang and I went from West Side Story to West Side Story to then I was in Sister Act, and I kept pleading my agents to tell more complex stories that weren't just this.

00;13;12;02 - 00;13;18;07

Nikko

it really became the issue of, do I wait for the industry to change, or do I learn new skills in order to help change the industry?

00;13;18;14 - 00;13;26;08

Nikko

And the latter was really the course where I went and I started to learn how to produce, and I started learning to produce short films, photos series,

00;13;26;11 - 00;13;31;03

Nikko

education programs that worked with marginalized communities to help tell those more complex,

00;13;31;03 - 00;13;43;00

Nikko

stories that weren't seen on larger stages. And then I started getting into education. And through education, I started working with a theater company and the education I was working to develop curriculum and programs,

00;13;43;00 - 00;13;46;18

Nikko

arts education programs for the schools in the Bronx, Brooklyn and Harlem.

00;13;46;21 - 00;14;08;00

Nikko

And from there, I just loved, like, this concept of, yeah, you shouldn't be taking Hello Dolly to schools in the Bronx because there's some dissonance there. And naturally, these kids are theatrical. So what is the right container that is relevant to them that allows to pull that out of them? Right. So that's now what we call culturally responsive teaching.

00;14;08;00 - 00;14;30;04

Nikko

But back then it was just just make it make sense, make it fun, make it relevant. And so then from there, I started working as a director of education and community engagement at a theater out in California, where I was really in charge on equitable access to arts education. That was free arts programing. That was bilingual and really using the cultural strengths of it was predominantly Latino school.

00;14;30;12 - 00;14;47;01

Nikko

And so you go into the school and you would say, hey, do this melodrama, which was they were doing in the past, and it was this it was not relevant. And it was kind of this old Western that had all of these cringy, oh my gosh, I can't believe we’re still doing this class, to now we change it to hey, you know what the same effect is?

00;14;47;01 - 00;15;07;02

Nikko

If we were to say telenovela, it immediately clicks in and these kids would develop their own scenes, these telenovela scenes that were 100, they put on wigs, they would be the abuela. They'd have the chancla out. They would. They were doing theater. But you had to create the container in which they understood it in, in their natural lives so that you could see them blossom and understand.

00;15;07;04 - 00;15;33;00

Nikko

Oh, this is theater. I haven't been to a traditional theater with red velvet seats, but I've seen a telenovela. I know when stakes are 100. I know the conventions and this container feels right for me to express my way in this curriculum of theater. And so from there, I really just became impassioned about, I think this is right, right is creating the the right container that feels right for this audience, for them to share their brilliance.

00;15;33;03 - 00;15;46;06

Nikko

And so that then led me to creating Kimzin Creative in 2021 consulting firm and really saying, how are we the creators and builders of new worlds, artists, is which I believe we are and what rooms

00;15;46;06 - 00;15;53;17

Nikko

do we need to be in to help build these new worlds? And to me, that meant policy. That meant funding, and that meant placemaking.

00;15;53;20 - 00;16;24;06

Nikko

These three traditional places where our marginalized communities are left out of intentionally. And that's why we're living in the chaos of modern society. So now speaking both languages, how could we nudge our way in, use the power of the artist, be in deep relationship with community, and really build these new worlds one step by step, and not in a transactional way but a relational way that once we leave, the community’s still there, becoming stewards of land,

00;16;24;08 - 00;16;26;18

Nikko

stewards of policy, stewards of

00;16;26;18 - 00;16;28;16

Nikko

funds and granting.

00;16;28;19 - 00;16;29;02

Nikko

And so

00;16;29;02 - 00;16;30;24

Nikko

we're really excited to be,

00;16;30;27 - 00;16;41;06

Nikko

in a tradition of creative place makers, thought leaders and partnering artists with community for long lasting change.

00;16;41;09 - 00;16;42;25

Pam

that's an amazing

00;16;42;27 - 00;16;48;22

Pam

path of your life. And what I think is really interesting,

00;16;48;23 - 00;17;16;11

Pam

you're touching on things that are universal, but I also think are really in particular, very relevant to the Bay area and very relevant to, I don't know, maybe the past ten years and even more relevant post-pandemic. And this idea of placemaking, like community, community,

00;17;16;11 - 00;17;20;04

Pam

involved placemaking is fascinating.

00;17;20;04 - 00;17;49;15

Pam

I, I want to touch a little bit. I know you did a project in Petaluma for a River Park, and I think one thing that many places in the Bay area could be stronger on. We have beautiful natural resources for sure, but these public spaces where we can gather, we're very much a car culture and we need to not be.

00;17;49;17 - 00;17;55;16

Pam

And we also, since the pandemic, need to not be a screen-based culture and.

00;17;55;16 - 00;18;05;20

Pam

You have so much potential, especially people listening beyond the Bay area. To me, Petaluma has come up as a player because.

00;18;05;20 - 00;18;09;01

Pam

It used to be like Petaluma where like you call a little.

00;18;09;01 - 00;18;09;10

Nikko

Chicken town.

00;18;09;10 - 00;18;11;23

Pam

Town, right? Like, where is Petaluma?

00;18;11;25 - 00;18;12;25

Nikko

Now it's cool.

00;18;12;29 - 00;18;30;28

Pam

It's very cool. It is a place where a lot of people have moved. They were priced out of the inner Bay area and they've moved and it has become a place now. Like, definitely. Yeah. You you wouldn't just drive by it on the freeway anymore. You might go there to see shows. You might go there.

00;18;31;04 - 00;18;31;25

Nikko

Yes!

00;18;31;27 - 00;18;33;22

Pam

eat at restaurants.

00;18;33;24 - 00;18;36;14

Nikko

To go shop, to go to the new Petaluma River Park.

00;18;36;14 - 00;18;40;20

Pam

Well, that's what I want to talk about, this Petaluma River Park.

00;18;40;22 - 00;18;56;20

Pam

how did you get involved and what has been the process to create this community space? Because we all know it could have been a non community space. It could have been a space, you know, but not designed by the community. So can you talk about that.

00;18;56;23 - 00;19;13;08

Nikko

Yeah. So first I have to back up and say the way that this all started is we were I was working at doing a community engagement, to design the general plan for the city of Santa Rosa. And that's a 30 year strategic plan. And one of the main players in it

00;19;13;11 - 00;19;19;20

Nikko

approached us because they said, hey, listen, we don't have any data from populations under 24 years old.

00;19;19;23 - 00;19;48;13

Nikko

And this is to inform roadways developments, schools, multi-million dollars over the course of 30 years of policy. And they hadn't heard for a single person under 24 which is... which I cannot tell you how normal that is in city planning, which makes you so mad and so sad. Right? And so they they were such joyous partners. They brought us in and we said, great, we're going to use artists to do these workshops.

00;19;48;15 - 00;20;10;26

Nikko

We're going to do hip hop poetry workshops. We went into juvenile hall. We were working with Juvenile Hall Youth in order to have them write letters that said, hey, dear Future self, when it comes to, housing and it comes to health, this is what I want my communities to look like. And then we take those and we do thematic analysis and we say, here's the top priorities that are emerging from our populations under 24.

00;20;10;28 - 00;20;32;02

Nikko

And we did that with visual art collage workshops. We did that with a bilingual coloring book for our grades that were in grade school, this massive community engagement project. And can I just say, the number one piece of data that came up when there was an environmental justice component for our populations under 24 years old? The number one data point came up was they want

00;20;32;05 - 00;20;37;08

Nikko

access to quality green space.

00;20;37;10 - 00;21;02;22

Nikko

And if you were to ask some of us adults. Right. And we're like, kids are always on their phones, what are they doing this Gen Z, this Gen A no, it's because we haven't given them a better option. So if they can walk to a park where they can hang out with their friends for free, get a coffee, do things that they want to do, go see stuff they would be there, and that's what they want, and that's what they told us.

00;21;02;28 - 00;21;24;24

Nikko

And the lack of adults listening and activating every single dollar we have to make their wishes come true that then would lead to better health, social, mental health outcomes is our fault. So what I will say is knowing that as a priority, we were always looking for a placemaking project when it came to where can we really?

00;21;24;24 - 00;21;44;25

Nikko

Because that was a policy that was a policy project, that but that help inform parks, transportation. We were approached by the Petaluma River Park Foundation because they had already done some work from the commuting community, said this needs to be based on community engagement. And so they hired us as the community engagement firm to really make this happen.

00;21;44;25 - 00;21;57;14

Nikko

And they're an art park as well. It's established it was established first by artists. So they love this idea, an approach of using local artists. And so that's really what we did is it was a two year process. And

00;21;57;14 - 00;22;12;22

Nikko

we had, you know, bilingual arts engagement spanning over the course of a year and a half that was really to inform operations and programing and design of a 35 acre park in the heart of Petaluma.

00;22;12;25 - 00;22;41;05

Nikko

And this was by, for, and with community, and that is community in the sense where I've never seen a foundation say, oh, this is going to take time, money and a commitment for us to be willing to let the process change us. Right. And so really with that dedication and that heart towards we cannot move unless community moves with us is a different way of thinking.

00;22;41;11 - 00;23;03;25

Nikko

Yeah. Right. And then being in rooms with artists where we're facilitating the spoken word poetry workshops for, the LGBTQI community and hearing them write poems about what a park could do for them, for their community, what they want to do at a park, what they sound feel hear and not only getting

00;23;03;28 - 00;23;16;05

Nikko

the data that we need about that for design around, but it's having them, hearing them write beautiful poetry around what safety actually looks like to them is clean bathrooms.

00;23;16;08 - 00;23;45;00

Nikko

Safety actually looks like lighting safety does not look like cops. Safety actually looks like clear signage in multiple languages for me to access and get around appropriately. Safety looks like places I can play with my friends and see my kids safety, right? And so you get this nuanced meaning that then with this beautiful gift that we can give to our beautiful landscape architect CMG and say, here's what the community said, here's this beauty.

00;23;45;06 - 00;24;13;17

Nikko

Now your job is to use every skill you have to activate that through design. So to me, I'm like, what a beautiful way to design these new worlds using the wisdom and genius of our community. And not only that, our community is still there. Like they're active community advisory members. They're board members now. And so it's this beautiful thing of if it wants to be for the community, it has to be by the community.

00;24;13;20 - 00;24;15;15

Pam

That's pretty amazing.

00;24;15;17 - 00;24;16;05

Pam

I saw

00;24;16;05 - 00;24;18;00

Pam

some images of

00;24;18;03 - 00;24;32;01

Pam

one of the things you were doing was were you having kids write down like their wishes on little. Yeah. Things that they could put on a wall. Were you surprised by some of these wishes that you were getting from

00;24;32;01 - 00;24;34;19

Pam

these children in the community?

00;24;34;21 - 00;24;36;29

Nikko

Yeah. So one of our engagements was,

00;24;36;29 - 00;24;41;22

Nikko

you know, traditional engagement is we'll send out a survey via email. And if you don't respond to it, good luck to you.

00;24;41;25 - 00;24;47;02

Nikko

And they were looking for something different. There was a festival that was happening on the land,

00;24;47;05 - 00;24;47;26

Nikko

and

00;24;47;26 - 00;24;52;25

Nikko

I said, you know what's really fun? Let's build something that's super fun and colorful and engaging.

00;24;53;00 - 00;25;12;25

Nikko

And let’s just ask them their dreams. Right? And so there was this thing, there was a simple sticker, and it was a map of the River Park, and it said, I wish this could be. It was a simple question that then lets you take in any direction that you want. And we invited families and children and you could write, I wish this could be a dog park, I wish this could be.

00;25;12;25 - 00;25;31;18

Nikko

And kids would write a zip line, a circus. But I wish this could be. And from there you get these data categories that are like, oh, this is a place for family. Oh, this is a place for me and my partner. Oh, I want a place where I can come with my animal. Oh, I wish this could be a place for rest.

00;25;31;18 - 00;25;55;08

Nikko

I want this to be a place for exercise. I want this, and then you start to zero in on these buckets. So you're not just saying, I wish this could be. Which was a great, alluring, beautiful thing where people could offer their contributions and genius, but it's also a moment where what you didn't see on the stickers were the beautiful conversations we were having and our staff were having with these people saying, hey, how could this 35 acre park

00;25;55;10 - 00;26;04;16

Nikko

support you and where you're going. You want to you want more places where that are easy access to do your mental health break walk during your work Zoom day. Me too.

00;26;04;20 - 00;26;05;12

Nikko

Great.

00;26;05;14 - 00;26;15;20

Nikko

Well, what would that look like for you? Right. And so it's a beautiful opening to a relationship. And everything we did was about relationship. It's not about let me take your ID and see you later.

00;26;15;23 - 00;26;37;03

Nikko

Right. Which are traditional engagement processes. It's hey, come back in next week. We now have a town hall. Hey, I want to come back to you and say this is what we did based on your idea, do you like that? No. Tell me your thoughts. Right. And so it's always evolving. And once you embed that in the culture from the, from the beginning, then you're creating an ecosystem where you're in relationship, you're not in extraction mode.

00;26;37;03 - 00;27;03;01

Nikko

And that's the different approach. And I think that is the creative way of thinking. Right? We're always becoming, and artists are always have their ear to the ground about being responsive to community with their art and art making processes. So I think that's really where the arts and public design are a huge benefit. It's about relationship and giving us something to do together and creating basically the park is a huge art project, it’s a group art project.

00;27;03;03 - 00;27;09;17

Nikko

Right. And so how can we be how can we be facilitators of a group art projects.

00;27;09;19 - 00;27;21;23

Pam

Right. And I just I'm thinking of some of the truly magical spaces like that that I've been to in various cities and towns.

00;27;21;26 - 00;27;28;18

Pam

And, you know, I was just ragging on the Bay area, but, you know, there are some things that are there, like a little bit of magic, like

00;27;28;18 - 00;27;32;18

Pam

the train and the carousel in Tilden Park.

00;27;32;21 - 00;27;56;27

Pam

I'm a huge fan of the city of Montreal, and there're so many public spaces there that. Yeah, and and even New York. I know that there are some that have been critiqued a lot because they have, of course, contributed to gentrification. There's so much public space there that you can just be out and about.

00;27;56;27 - 00;27;57;22

Pam

And

00;27;57;25 - 00;28;00;14

Pam

I live in Oakland. There are some,

00;28;00;14 - 00;28;01;22

Pam

amazing ones like,

00;28;01;22 - 00;28;02;14

Pam

Lake Merritt,

00;28;02;17 - 00;28;04;12

Pam

the waterfront at Jack London

00;28;04;12 - 00;28;20;06

Pam

Square is incredible. But then I feel like you get out into the outer reaches of the city where I am. I'm in Deep East Oakland, and they start sort of falling out a way. And I'm so curious.

00;28;20;09 - 00;28;28;10

Pam

How do you see openings? I mean, I'm even thinking your your agency should come to Oakland.

00;28;28;13 - 00;28;29;09

Pam

Yeah,

00;28;29;11 - 00;29;00;24

Pam

because how do you create the relationships with the, city government and policymakers as an artist to it's like, how do you, like, kind of open up those cracks so that you can really say, hey, what about East Oakland? There's all this enormous median strip right there that could be developed into some community space.

00;29;00;24 - 00;29;02;27

Pam

How do you do that?

00;29;02;29 - 00;29;13;05

Nikko

Yeah, that's a great question. And what I will say, and I want to be very strong, I'd like to have very strong opinions when surveys in our community engagement

00;29;13;08 - 00;29;18;27

Nikko

and a patch of grass that is a square is not a park.

00;29;18;29 - 00;29;19;11

Pam

Right.

00;29;19;12 - 00;29;45;29

Nikko

So doing the minimum no longer is sufficient. And I know you're trying to do what you can with, you know, tax dollars and you think that that's okay. But when we're talking about these radical change that we need to see in our society, and you're giving us a square, patchy grass park with two benches, that's not getting us to our ultimate goal of true liberation and connectedness that we need to feel in our communities.

00;29;45;29 - 00;30;17;09

Nikko

Right. And so I think your question is about what is the standard. And it's now walking into places strong backed and saying, I know you thought it was best because that's how we've traditionally done it. There's other ways to do it, and we're going to hold you accountable to thinking and be creative and thought partners. Right. And thought partners, because how many policymakers have an artist come into their office and say, hey, we would like to help you solve this problem right?

00;30;17;12 - 00;30;40;07

Nikko

None. Because a) artists feel at some times, and we've been trained psychologically to say, we are the beautification, we are not the strategists. And I'm so done with art being just for decoration at the end, but we need to be the designers at the beginning. Right. And that and we can really be all of it. Right? But I don't want to see more electrical boxes that are painted with murals.

00;30;40;09 - 00;31;04;22

Nikko

I'm bored. I want to see whole new parks. I want to see whole new infrastructure that we don't even see the electrical boxes, because artists have thought of better ways to do it. Right. And so I think part of that is it's a cultural shift of getting what I say, muggles, non artist-folk or non magic folk. To see the value of the arts.

00;31;04;22 - 00;31;29;23

Nikko

I will no longer be in a room where I am fighting for the value of the arts. That is your homework, right? And we have to and the arts have been wiped out of every single curriculum. This culture of American culture where we do not value the arts as public infrastructure, that it should be part of our daily lives, that it's an accessory piece, that we should pay a high premium for that is inaccessible, and it's a nice to have.

00;31;29;25 - 00;31;58;12

Nikko

I'm so disinterested in side-dish art. I'm interested in the full dish. Right. This is the entree. This it is it is roadways. It is education. It is hospitals. It is art and culture. It is part of our daily livelihood and infrastructure. So I think part of it is changing the perception of the muggles that are in the rooms that we can't, that we don't normally see ourselves in, and getting them to see artists and creativity as an option to help solve their problems.

00;31;58;14 - 00;32;26;09

Nikko

Right? Right. Because if we know one thing about artists, we will find a way and we can help strategize nontraditional ways that are more expansive, more colorful, more beautiful and fun, and then b) for artists, I take accountability for our artists a lot and say, how come you are not stepping up to the plate? I challenge you to say, I understand you want to paint your your murals here, and we are in the business of art as right.

00;32;26;09 - 00;32;46;28

Nikko

So there's art for art's sake. Love that. That is individual practice. That's so beautiful. I challenge artists if you want to be about building this new world, step into art as art, as health, art as public infrastructure, art as transportation, art as policymaking, and go to someone as a collaborator, unlikely collaborator, a policy maker and say, what are you,

00;32;46;28 - 00;33;02;01

Nikko

what is the problem you're solving? Here's the tools that I have, where might we be able to collaborate on this? And I think that's really the meeting of the minds is them seeing us as an option, us seeing them as an option, as a canvas.

00;33;02;04 - 00;33;03;14

Pam

Right.

00;33;03;16 - 00;33;26;27

Nikko

And I think that's where it begins. And then it begins a relationship. And I can tell you, the people, the collaborators, the policymakers, the park planners, once we've done this, they're like, why would we do it any other way? Right. Because it's just it's a no brainer. And we are all great artists, policymakers, art planners, designers. We all want to be in service, quote unquote, to community.

00;33;26;29 - 00;33;39;00

Nikko

But the question is how we do it, the impacts that it will have. And then I see the long form relationship that it will have after. And that's really where the power of the arts come in.

00;33;39;02 - 00;33;51;01

Pam

Right? The ability to shift as just to kind of echo what you're saying, this whole idea of how we do this.

00;33;51;04 - 00;33;52;02

Nikko

Yes.

00;33;52;04 - 00;34;03;04

Pam

That it's no longer a new idea, but it is the way that, you know, something is done when we're creating community spaces.

00;34;03;06 - 00;34;28;06

Nikko

Yeah. And I'll just say, and we're feeling this everywhere, you have to do a lot for me to put hard pants on, get up my butt off my couch, turn off Netflix, drive in my car, park, buy a coffee. You got to do a lot to get me to do that, right? You have to incentivize me a lot to be present in in that place now.

00;34;28;09 - 00;34;49;01

Nikko

So we really have to be thinking in new, creative ways because they will not just come. You give me a patch of grass. I'm not coming. Right? You give me cool programing that I actually want to see that I felt like I was a contributor and that all my friends are going to go to and go be a part of.

00;34;49;04 - 00;35;18;02

Nikko

I'll put hard pants on and I'll drive. Right. And we know the benefits of hard pants and driving and experiencing culture with friends is that leads to what we really want, which is connection, community, greater life outcomes, right, when it comes to health. And so we really have to start seeing it as an epidemic of social isolation that we really have to cure, using artistry and togetherness in any way we can.

00;35;18;04 - 00;35;19;06

Pam

Right? Right.

00;35;19;06 - 00;35;58;23

Pam

I've even read it's not even so much this time with close friends and family. It's the people that you're going and encountering in the store that the other people sitting in the cafe, the people that you pass by on the sidewalk as you're going somewhere, which are really I don't want to I don't want to say something that's untrue about what I read, but I think they said that's even more important to people in terms of not feeling isolated, that you are out in community whether you know those people or not, the ability to see other

00;35;58;23 - 00;36;20;14

Pam

people out. Yes. Doing that. And I feel like again, that's why we need these public spaces that are alluring, as you are saying, that we would be like, hey, I'd like to instead of reading my book at home all day, I'd like to take my book and go sit in such and such a place and read it all day.

00;36;20;16 - 00;36;25;13

Nikko

Yes. And it to me, I look at where else can you find,

00;36;25;16 - 00;36;36;29

Nikko

a person of Catholic faith, Jewish faith, a teacher, a doctor, a Gen-Z influencer, a fashion designer, a photographer. Where can you find that? At a music festival.

00;36;37;01 - 00;36;38;09

Pam

Oh, yeah.

00;36;38;11 - 00;37;00;28

Nikko

At a theater. At an art gallery. These are places that are creating the container for diverse, professional and lived experiences to come together, to experience something together. Right. Because it's not it's just going to be this one little neighborhood that these one little people from the same neighborhood go to. It's not it's photographers all go to the same sort of gallery, the same thing.

00;37;00;28 - 00;37;24;09

Nikko

Right. And so we're looking for places that really can expose us and tear apart what's happening right now with this division of right side, left side. It's building containers where we can all relearn how to be humans with different perspectives together. And so I look at the power of the artist to reconnect us and build those spaces that other places do not have that super power.

00;37;24;14 - 00;37;32;18

Nikko

So how do we as artists tap into that and really come alongside other nontraditional, collaborators like policymakers,

00;37;32;18 - 00;37;41;01

Nikko

park planners wherever and say, hey, we're we're stepping up here to help with social isolation within our communities. And we'd like to be a thought partner in that.

00;37;41;03 - 00;37;43;17

Pam

Right? Right.

00;37;43;20 - 00;37;48;00

Pam

one thing I want to bring up that you have,

00;37;48;03 - 00;37;54;13

Pam

as something that is, I guess would be your core belief, are you can correct me if that's wrong, but,

00;37;54;13 - 00;38;05;24

Pam

Right now, it's hard sometimes to find joy in the particular moment we're in. How do you center joy in this? Not only this creating spaces, but in,

00;38;05;24 - 00;38;07;07

Pam

social justice work?

00;38;07;07 - 00;38;17;10

Pam

Yeah. How how do you do it? How what are what nuggets can you help me with? Yeah.

00;38;17;13 - 00;38;42;20

Nikko

Joy is joy is everything to me. Joy. If it's not joyous, you won't find me there. And I am very fortunate that I'm a person that wakes up in the natural position of joy. And my daily practice is to protect my joy. And so part of that looks like, you know, there's this phrase of, I gotta refill my cup.

00;38;42;23 - 00;39;03;03

Nikko

I may pre-fill my cup. I'm going to get my coffee. I'm going to journal. I'm going to listen to my favorite beats. I'm going to go for a walk. I'm gonna go work out. I'm going to go do the things that I need to do to make me sturdy so that I can be existing out of an overflow, and nobody can take from my cup, but I can give from my cup.

00;39;03;05 - 00;39;23;11

Nikko

And so to me, I prefill my joy so that I can dish it out, knowing that that's my superpower. Right? And what I say about my the uplift the human spirit, is that I have that objective in my mind daily. And what that means is I can walk into a coffee shop and I can achieve that by going, oh my God, like today, there's a woman who smelled this incredible perfume.

00;39;23;11 - 00;39;38;12

Nikko

I was like, what are you wearing? I’m obsessed with that, that smells amazing, right, who doesn't love somebody hyping them up and have that exchange of joy where it could have just been? Can I get a coffee? Right. And so there's moments there, and that fills me up and that fills them up. And so,

00;39;38;15 - 00;39;42;28

Nikko

for me, Joy and I'm talking like radical joy.

00;39;43;01 - 00;40;03;08

Nikko

There's joy that's like, that's nice. I'm here for radical joy. I want to scream, laugh. I want to slap my knee. I want to grab my friends. I want to run away because it's so joyous and exciting. Because the moments that I have felt closest to liberation are those moments where I'm just lost in laughter and joy and I've elevated right.

00;40;03;08 - 00;40;25;19

Nikko

And those are the that's the new world I want to live in. That's the world I want to live in. And to me, I always say that joy in the process matters because how we create informs what we create. And joy isn't a byproduct. It's a practice. So you can't expect to go through life and just experience joy.

00;40;25;21 - 00;40;40;04

Nikko

It is a practice. It is a daily practice. It is a muscle. You got to go to Hope gym. You got to go to the gym for Joy. And what are you doing to pre-fill your well so that you can dish it out out of an overflow. And what I say from that is,

00;40;40;07 - 00;40;43;22

Nikko

I have been in many rooms and especially with

00;40;43;29 - 00;40;46;25

Nikko

organizers, community organizers, marginalized communities.

00;40;46;25 - 00;40;54;29

Nikko

Don't get me wrong, there's a lot to not be joyous about. There is a lot to hate. There is a lot

00;40;54;29 - 00;41;26;14

Nikko

to be angry at. There is a lot to a sadness, profound sadness. And that is reality. Live in that, breathe in that, and we can welcome it in. We can have tea with it, we can give it a cookie, and then we have to usher it back out the door, because when it becomes all consuming, then we're just concerned about the tearing down of old worlds, but not the rebuilding of new worlds.

00;41;26;16 - 00;41;40;28

Nikko

And I need to have gas in the tank so that I can imagine what are the ways in which we're tearing down the old world. But the energy is reserved for the joy and the collective liberation in this new world.

00;41;41;00 - 00;41;53;14

Pam

Right? You know, it's so funny. You're kind of exactly expressing, I think, the frustration of a lot of people with our current politics.

00;41;53;16 - 00;41;54;16

Nikko

Yeah.

00;41;54;19 - 00;42;09;02

Pam

And that there's no vision forward. There's no vision forward. What comes next. Because always a horrible moment is a moment of possibility.

00;42;09;04 - 00;42;10;29

Nikko

Yeah, yeah.

00;42;11;01 - 00;42;13;00

Pam

There's well, you imagine

00;42;13;00 - 00;42;15;24

Pam

what can come after this moment.

00;42;15;27 - 00;42;30;11

Nikko

What can we have to be forward thinking like that? We have to be thinking generationally. Right. The in a in a system right now in a government that wants to control, control, control and tear down, we have to position

00;42;30;11 - 00;42;37;29

Nikko

ourselves in a marathon. This is not a sprint. And what do I need? What does my community need?

00;42;38;02 - 00;43;05;26

Nikko

And to me, if we're going towards liberation, I want to be so oriented on the pillars of liberation. And one of those is radical joy, baby, because with radical joy creates the container for ease, and it puts us in a position of radical dreaming and freedom dreaming to imagine these new worlds. And I say, I want to keep my frequency so high on joy that the haters can't find me.

00;43;05;29 - 00;43;25;15

Nikko

I want to be up here vibrating so high with my friends, and we're envisioning and building these beautiful new worlds that these haters cannot find me. And that is not to say toxic positivity, where I'm trying to not acknowledge what's happening in the world. I want to welcome it. I want to sit with those conversations. I want to learn from those conversation of what is important that we need to change.

00;43;25;18 - 00;43;33;06

Nikko

And then I need to dance. I need to party, and I need to lift my spirits for the work that's ahead. That's not where it ends.

00;43;33;09 - 00;43;45;02

Pam

Right? Right. We need to put that in a document, you know, life, liberty and the pursuit or the creation of radical joy. Yeah. The practice of radical joy.

00;43;45;04 - 00;43;56;03

Nikko

Yes. And I'll say, anytime I meet with people, I, I'm on stage. Right. You see me host. I mean, I just was in a client call. I'm sitting with a community member

00;43;56;07 - 00;44;09;05

Nikko

having a coffee is every time we'll walk away. And it's a it's a joy is a free resource. And when we walk away and we say, wow, that felt so good.

00;44;09;08 - 00;44;29;23

Nikko

Like, you leave elevated. And that makes a) me want to keep coming back. Them wanting to keep coming back. And us continue to be in conversation and puts us in that forward position. And so I'm wondering how do we practice joy? How do we know that it's a practice? How do we go to the gym for joy? And then to me, you get joy by giving joy.

00;44;29;25 - 00;44;37;00

Nikko

And if we were to create that culture, what would that do to the infrastructure of our interactions daily.

00;44;37;02 - 00;44;50;19

Nikko

And that's the community I want to live in. Those are the interactions I want to go to the coffee shop and be like, you smell good, no, you smell good. I'm like, you have a good day. You have a good day. And so maybe it's just my musical theater training, but that is it's around radical joy and liberation.

00;44;50;19 - 00;45;02;08

Nikko

And I think really imagining simple interactions and heightening them a little bit. And what does a dose of joy do in that moment, and what does that look like in every decision that we make in our day?

00;45;02;10 - 00;45;13;25

Pam

Right, right. But I think that there are sort of I would call, you I would say you are kind of a part of,

00;45;13;25 - 00;45;25;17

Pam

maybe unrecognized saints of joy, because I do know that there are certain people, whether they're at the grocery store, they work at the grocery store, or they're that who give you that hit where you.

00;45;25;23 - 00;45;26;01

Nikko

Leave.

00;45;26;03 - 00;45;40;04

Pam

Feeling better than you felt when you went in. And I feel like there are people that, you know, you said that your, your naturally. What did you say that.

00;45;40;07 - 00;45;42;05

Nikko

My natural disposition to joy or my natural dispositon...?

00;45;42;08 - 00;45;57;27

Pam

Yes, yes, yes. And there are a handful of people and I feel like I feel like that there are enough people that this could become a cultural shift. Not yeah, not tomorrow, but at some point.

00;45;57;29 - 00;46;01;17

Nikko

Yeah. And I think where, where that positions

00;46;01;20 - 00;46;39;09

Nikko

artists is I think if we think of ourselves as joy dealers, our artists, Whenever I walk past a mural, whenever I walk past, DJ, whenever I walk past, you know, somebody's creating something. Those are little hits, right? These beautiful moments of joy. And I'm like, if we want to build more beautiful spaces, more engaging spaces, and also just live in this world of joy, how can we be unified and leading this charge of this movement of joy, movement of connectivity as arts and cultural workers knowing in this moment this is what our community needs.

00;46;39;12 - 00;47;01;05

Nikko

So let's go after joy. Let's create beautiful places for people to gather. And just maybe then if we create the soil, what would happen in the planting of relationships, connections, healing? And then does that start to shift culture and then after culture? What policies are created to continue to support that culture moving forward?

00;47;01;07 - 00;47;07;17

Pam

Right, right. Well, I'm wondering

00;47;07;20 - 00;47;12;07

Pam

have we not talked about something yet that you really, really want to share?

00;47;12;10 - 00;47;13;23

Nikko

I will say.

00;47;13;25 - 00;47;30;23

Nikko

In in this arts as community engagement. I want to make the case now for people that maybe aren’t artists or or don't see the value of the arts, because a lot of times when I'm walking into some rooms, I do have to I have to petition the value of the arts. And to me, I'm like, it's everything in there.

00;47;30;27 - 00;47;51;25

Nikko

But I'm like, more specifically, it is this. And what I will say about the arts. If you are a muggle, if you don't self-identify in this moment right now, and I could convince somebody very easily otherwise. But if they're not artists and they’re policymakers, they are in a boardroom, they're in an office setting, and there's a problem that they're dealing with

00;47;52;03 - 00;47;53;13

Nikko

and they're looking for a solution.

00;47;53;13 - 00;48;28;25

Nikko

And they can't quite crack the code. Or more often than not, they don't want to do it how it's traditionally been done before. I want to invite them into artistry, into a coffee with an artist, into asking an artist to help them look at this problem differently. And here are my main bullet points of maybe why. And this would be the case for why artists are uniquely suited to help you solve your non art problems is that art creates a joyous container for us to dream that freedom.

00;48;28;25 - 00;49;05;14

Nikko

Dreaming is really about analyzing where we are and where we're going, and we need a guide, we need a guide, and we need a tool to help us paint right? Whatever we need to do of that new world. Because when we were asking high schoolers, where are we now? What's terrible now? They could tell you very easily, but how do you get somebody go, hey, in 30 years, after tens of millions of dollars worth of public infrastructure funding, what should your community look like differently?

00;49;05;16 - 00;49;27;23

Nikko

That's a big question, and we are not in the current practice of teaching the next generations and all generations of freedom, dreaming. When we imagine this beautiful, liberated world, what does that taste like? What does that feel like? What does that sound like? What does that what is the culture around us? How do you feel, how to use it?

00;49;27;25 - 00;49;31;06

Nikko

And then can you draw that for me? Oh, I see that

00;49;31;06 - 00;49;54;21

Nikko

you've drawn something like this. Is that correct data point. Right. Data point. And so we need guides to help us get to the where we're going, that new world. And I'll say the benefit of the art is art is a universal language. When we talk about access, when we talk about cultural responsivity, there's every flavor of art form to be in true relevance to the communities that you want to be in collaboration with.

00;49;54;23 - 00;50;24;15

Nikko

So that's a beautiful option, it’s a tool for you to speak their language, to be in community, to be reflecting their cultural heritage and their wealth back at them. And I'll say art collects qualitative and quantitative data and the most important data that we ever collected in all of our communication projects, which it was not just the the quantitative data, but it's the spirit in which the data was offered.

00;50;24;17 - 00;50;56;13

Nikko

The spirit that says, hey, it's not just no cops. Cops are not safety to me. It's cops are responsible for the murder and the fragmentation of our communities. And I will not be there if I see a signaling of police. That, the spirit of the offering is more in depth than the offering. And so that's how you get to know the heart of your community is through the qualitative data that emerges through the art.

00;50;56;15 - 00;51;21;24

Nikko

Right. And the other one, I would say is that art leads to community engagement and members being stewards of a place, of a policy, of an event because they've experienced something there, they built a relationship with it. And they feel when we talk about placemaking that they are part of it. And so with that, with those simple bullet points, I want to say, what else?

00;51;21;25 - 00;51;34;16

Nikko

What other room do artists need to be in and how can we help the problem solvers to these problems that historically we wouldn't be invited to right?

00;51;34;18 - 00;51;39;05

Nikko

Right. And let's have some fun along the way.

00;51;39;08 - 00;51;41;02

Nikko

That's what I would say!

00;51;41;04 - 00;51;50;14

Pam

Yes, definitely. Well, thank you for practicing some joy with me here today. I definitely feel better

00;51;50;17 - 00;51;52;26

Pam

after talking

00;51;52;29 - 00;52;09;10

Pam

to...And Nikko,, tell people how they can find out what you're up to. If you're open to people getting in touch with you, follow your work. How can they do that?

00;52;09;12 - 00;52;10;19

Nikko

Yeah. Thanks, Pam.

00;52;10;22 - 00;52;34;03

Nikko

You can look at I have my two split personalities, my creative director side where I'm an artist, theater maker. Everything at nikkokimzin.com. That's nikkokimzin.com. You can also follow, our consulting work where we do arts based engagement at kimzincreative.com. We're also on social media, Instagram.

00;52;34;06 - 00;52;41;13

Nikko

And I'm also launching this month a new Substack series and, conversation series called advice from a nobody.

00;52;41;16 - 00;53;18;06

Nikko

And that will be on Substack at Nikko Kimzin and, you can find us on TikTok and Instagram. But that's really where we're exploring the musings of what I called the delightful torment of the creative life and all the beautiful lessons we learn about creativity and how we really see creativity playing out in, in our society. And so I invite listeners if they're interested in that conversation, the beautiful conversations you're having the PM here, come join us over at that Substack and be part of that community where we're really asking these questions on how does art, how does joy, how does this collective revolution that's breaking social isolation that leads to a greater connected

00;53;18;06 - 00;53;20;26

Nikko

and liberated place for us?

00;53;20;28 - 00;53;25;10

Pam

That is fantastic. And I I'm looking forward to that. Substack.

00;53;25;10 - 00;53;27;03

Nikko

So,

00;53;27;05 - 00;53;34;25

Pam

Can't wait for it to be out there. So thank you again. Have a great joyous weekend.

00;53;34;27 - 00;53;36;11

Nikko

Thank you. You too.

00;53;36;15 - 00;53;40;00

Pam

I look forward to following your work.

00;53;40;02 - 00;53;43;11

Nikko

Thanks. Bye bye y'all.

00;53;43;13 - 00;53;57;18

Pam

And you're listening to Art Heals All Wounds 

00;54;01;28 - 00;54;22;27

Pam

Thank you so much to Nikko Kimzin for bringing his radical joy to this podcast. I'll put all of Nikko’s contact info in the show notes so that you can follow his work. And thank you for listening today. I'm not currently using social media, but if you'd like to get in touch, you can reach me through my website

00;54;23;00 - 00;54;32;10

Pam

arthealsallwoundspodcast.com. You can also find me on Substack. I'm looking forward to hearing from you.

00;54;32;12 - 00;54;36;22

Pam

The music you've heard in this podcast is by Ketsa and Lobo Loco.