Art Heals All Wounds
Do you think art can change the world? So do I! We’re at a pivotal moment when scientists, medical practitioners, and creatives are coming together in recognition of the ways that art plays an indispensable role in our well-being, as individuals, communities, and societies. In each episode we hear from artists and creatives who share their inspiration for their work and its wider impact. These conversations about transformative artistic practices show the ways that art can be a catalyst for healing and change.
How do we change the world? One artist at a time.
Art Heals All Wounds
Suga' from Bundle of Sticks: Black Queer Identity, Gender Freedom, and Healing Through Art
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Suga' with Bundle of Sticks: Black Queer Identity, Gender Freedom, and Healing Through Art
I'm so glad to welcome back Dazié Grego-Sykes and Derrick Miller-Handley of Bundle of Sticks Art Collective for a conversation about their upcoming performance ritual, Suga'. This art collective has spent over 25 years exploring the intersection of Blackness and queerness through performance art, visual art, and community building — and their newest work may be their most personal yet.
Suga' is an immersive performance ritual in which Derrick steps into the performer role for the first time in over 20 years, using art as a vehicle for gender identity exploration, radical self-acceptance, and spiritual healing. We talk about what it means to exist outside of society's containers, the power of Black ancestry as a spiritual resource, and why embracing your authentic self is an act of liberation.
If you're in the Bay Area, Suga' runs May 29–31 at Eastside Arts Alliance in Oakland. Find tickets by searching Suga' on Eventbrite.
Topics Covered:
- [0:47] Introducing Bundle of Sticks Art Collective
- [4:19] The intersection of Blackness, queerness, visual art, and performance
- [6:00] Trust, safety, and creative collaboration
- [10:13] What is Suga' — and why call it a ritual?
- [13:47] The many meanings of the word "Suga'"
- [16:53] "Suga' in your tank" — reclaiming a slur as a source of power
- [22:03] The immersive space: artifacts, ancestry, and performance
- [26:17] The tension — and natural harmony — between Blackness and queerness
- [31:08] Gender identity, legibility, and refusing society's containers
- [37:59] How Suga' came to be and why now
- [54:44] Why this work matters in today's political and social climate
- [59:32] Tickets and show details
00;00;12;00 - 00;00;31;11
Pam
Do you believe art can change the world? So do I! On this show, we meet artists whose work is doing just that. Welcome to Art Heals All Wounds. I'm your host, Pam Uzzell.
00;00;47;23 - 00;01;01;14
Pam
Today I'm welcoming back two artists that have been on the podcast before. Dazié Grego-Sykes and Derrick Miller-Handley make up Bundle of Sticks, an art collective that explores blackness and queerness.
00;01;01;16 - 00;01;28;06
Pam
I'll link to that former episode in the show notes, if you haven't already listened to it before, I really recommend it. They go very deeply in talking about their collective. In that episode, we also talked about a performance created by Dazié and Derrick called The Changer and the Changed. The best way I can describe The Changer and the Changed is as a performed memoir of Dazié's life.
00;01;28;08 - 00;01;33;22
Pam
Derrick created this amazing space, kind of like a way to
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Pam
create a context for Dazié's performance. I can say that I left this performance changed in the way that only really good art can change you. I felt like something inside of me had expanded. When my partner and I left the theater, it seemed like I was floating down the street, and I could tell that my partner felt that too.
00;01;57;10 - 00;02;05;18
Pam
The whole night suddenly seemed full of possibility.
00;02;05;20 - 00;02;32;18
Pam
Now, Bundle of Sticks has a new production coming up called Suga'. S-U-G-A apostrophe. Suga'. This time around, Derrick will be performing. Actually, I want to not call it a production or even a performance. As Dazié and Derrick explained to me, Suga' is a ritual. An artistic and spiritual ritual. First explored within the trust of their art collective.,
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Pam
It's now being shared with an audience. In this episode, we explore what Suga' is, especially in Derrick's life and what it means for his identity.
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Pam
Being able to explore this through art has been a way for Dazié and Derrick to free themselves from all of the constraints of society and express the excess
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Pam
the essence of who Derrick is. Who Dazié is. Who you and I are. How does Derrick free himself from this tiny container that he's supposed to fit in? Well, that's what Suga' is all about, and maybe seeing this example of how someone becomes free
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Pam
might show us how we can become free, too.
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Pam
You want to know how you can really help me keep this show going? Follow me on your favorite listening app. So easy. Right? And if you really want to give the show a boost, leave me a five star rating or review.
00;03;46;15 - 00;03;47;04
Pam
Hi Derrick and Dazié. It is so great to talk with both of you again.
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Pam
You were on the show in 2023, the end of the year, and
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Pam
you're back because you have a new production coming out. So
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Pam
before I go on too much further, I'm hoping that you will just talk a little bit about your art collective Bundle of Sticks, because that's what this production is
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Pam
created through.
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Pam
Is that collective?
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Dazié
So, Derrick, would you like to start?
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Derrick
Sure. So so Bundle of Sticks
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Derrick
as an art collective is really centering
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Derrick
the intersection
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Derrick
of Blackness and queerness. And,
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Derrick
it was started by Dazié and myself over 25 years ago.
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Derrick
Just through our conversations about,
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Derrick
how we're navigating the world
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Derrick
As young Black queer folks at that time. And,
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Derrick
over the over time, we developed that into
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Derrick
an artistic practice. And we collaborate with other artists.
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Derrick
The idea of Bundle of Sticks is to also really be blending different,
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Derrick
disciplines and modalities of artmaking and performance and bringing them together and bringing people together,
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Derrick
and in intentional spaces to really,
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Derrick
to build community and to also to dive into some of those,
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Derrick
nuances of the intersections of Blackness and queerness.
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Pam
Anything you want to add to that, Dazié?
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Dazié
I would add that I think the one part that's really interesting is it,
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Dazié
I feel like as much as it's an intersection of different relationships, of Blackness and queerness also, then the intersection between visual and performance art.
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Dazié
Being primarily my my initial practice being poetry and performance and Derrick's primary practice initially being visual art. And so we started there and I think as we've developed our process and our practice,
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Dazié
they've morphed and started gelling more and more because of,
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Dazié
the impact I think we've had on each other creatively.
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Pam
Well, one thing I remember from our previous conversation that really, really touched me was also this element of trust. And we were talking about the performance, The Changer and the Changed, which I would describe it. And you correct, both are either you can correct me,
00;06;01;00 - 00;06;18;21
Pam
that if was a performed memoir of Dazié's life and this this performance being there was so inspiring and energizing in a way, and kind of intimate.
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Pam
But you talked about that, Derrick, you were really a sounding board and kind of that, you know,
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Pam
that
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Pam
person who first heard this performance and kind of helped guide. Is this too intimate? Is it too much? Is it like, what is the right note here?
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Dazié
I think when you say trust, like, I automatically like, yeah, it's such a big deal.
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Dazié
For me,
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Dazié
developing this work and being in partnership with Derrick,
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Dazié
as we were developing and started developing this work, this newer work. What I notice about myself is the freedom that I feel in communicating what I think,
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Dazié
what I, what I like, what I don't like, what I think works, what doesn't work in a way that I never felt like I was being critical.
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Dazié
I waste a lot of time worrying about, like, how I'm going to be received, are people's feelings or all of that. And with Derrick, it's there's just this brutal. It's not even brutal. It's just honesty. Like, we just go back and back and forth and back and forth because I think we both understand that the dominant intent is for the other person's wellness and for the other person's success.
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Dazié
So there isn't this filtering of it landing wrong because we know where it where where its origin is. And so we're able to communicate really openly, really quickly and,
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Dazié
really effectively with one another without getting distracted by anything like that. So I feel like I communicate what I mean to I think that I'm able to share things that,
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Dazié
with other collaborators I might be a little shy about, like, ideas that maybe you won't
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Dazié
think are smart enough or don't think or interesting enough.
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Dazié
Like, whatever it is, throw it on the wall to see what sticks, and I can just expose whatever comes through my mind without getting caught up in any of that. Because there's a lot of trust there and a lot of safety there,
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Dazié
which allows me to really bring all of myself to the room without,
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Dazié
having to edit.
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Pam
Right.
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Pam
And, Derrick, I want to get your take on that, too.
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Derrick
Thank you. Yeah, I, I would,
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Derrick
maybe emphasize that there's a space of safety and care that's very intentional that we created with each with each other,
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Derrick
through Bundle of Sticks that,
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Derrick
while it exists for Dazié and myself, it's also a space that we can extend to other performers, other artists as well.
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Derrick
Which we have done with this work.
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Derrick
So one of the,
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Derrick
great things about this piece for me is that,
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Derrick
a good friend of mine that I actually met, around the same time I met Dazié when I was about 17 or 16 years old.
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Derrick
Who I'm now reconnected with, who's going to be, she's, her name is Savannah Schmidt, and she has a twerk practice.
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Derrick
Twerk as healing work, practice. And,
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Derrick
she's going to be a part of this work. And it was really interesting to, for me to be able to see both a,
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Derrick
a new level of relationship with this friend of mine and bringing her into this space that Dazié Dazié and I have created.
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Derrick
And also seeing
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Derrick
how the space functions when we bring new folks in,
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Derrick
how it does, in fact create space, how it does,
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Derrick
in relatively short order, create safety for other people to be able to also show up,
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Derrick
on the vulnerable with each other and honest with each other as we're moving through really personal
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Derrick
work.
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Pam
Yeah, that's interesting. And such a great point that I'm thinking about is that it also keeps your partnership fresh. You have now you've opened up the space for someone else to be in there.
00;09;39;03 - 00;09;53;26
Pam
You wrote to me about this new performance. I'm calling it a performance. We may redefine that as we go through this conversation. And it was very, very exciting to read about
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Pam
I'm not going to say I'm not going to regurgitate what you wrote to me about it. So I'm going to let one of you start off and talk about what is this new,
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Pam
show.
00;10;05;04 - 00;10;10;27
Pam
I'll say, for now that you're putting on and everything, the name and
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Pam
the vision behind it.
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Derrick
Sure. Well, the piece is called Suga', and it is,
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Derrick
what we're calling a performance ritual. So we are,
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Derrick
creating a space,
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Derrick
that is occupied by these artifacts that represent
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Derrick
revelations and touchpoints of my journey.
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Derrick
Navigating gender. and trying to uncover what truth might be there within that journey that I can take away from.
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Dazié
That.
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Derrick
And then apply towards some greater freedom,
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Derrick
and more,
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Derrick
full, a more full way of being who I am moving forward. So it's a piece that I want to not just impact the audiences that come and participate with that performance, but I'm also for myself and all of the artists involved.
00;11;03;06 - 00;11;05;01
Derrick
So that's that's what it is.
00;11;05;01 - 00;11;05;28
Derrick
And,
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Derrick
I want to give Dazié a chance to to give his perspective, before I say more.
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Dazié
I think what this piece is has changed and deepened for me as we've gone on. I think that,
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Dazié
Derrick had the clearest idea in relationship to what was being created and sort of introduced it to me.
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Dazié
And like, this is the kind of work that I want to create, and I had to come to go through a process and really feel like I'm still in to understanding it.
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Dazié
First in a way that I first. I was trying to understand it from Derrick's perspective really deeply, and then it became something where in order to get there, I had to understand my relationship to it and,
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Dazié
it's actually gotten me to a place where I'm learning more about Derrick than I thought possible, we’ve known each other 30 years, like I didn't think I didn't expect to be learning new things about Derrick,
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Dazié
who Derrick is, how Derrick defines himself, what Derrick Derrick's experience has been through life.
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Dazié
I didn't expect that. I spent at least 9 to 10 months projecting. Derrick was talking to me about all these things, about what there was, about what his experience was and what he wanted to create. And I couldn't even hear him. But I didn't realize that because I was projecting who I thought Derrick was. And when I thought about these things outside of Derrick had, like, completely become an obstacle to me really experiencing something new and fresh because I had all these assumptions that, like, I already knew.
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Dazié
Of course, I know this is my friend of 30 years, I know where this is headed. And it took me. I mean, like so much time, I'm kind of embarrassed by it. Like, wow, how can you be hearing somebody but not listening in this way for so long and believe that you are? So my understanding of the work has has gotten deeper and deeper.
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Dazié
Like for me, I think it started with the word Suga'. Like Derrick was like, this piece is called Suga'. And I had to come to value and make meaning of that and how to relate to it. And the first my first way into it was something that I wrote once, which was that,
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Dazié
he had suga’ in his tank and his foot on the gas.
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Dazié
So I imagined Suga' as being an ingredient that queer folk have,
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Dazié
have had used to describe what we have that makes us different. This, this sweetness, this ingredient that we have added to us.
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Dazié
And then trying to explore, like how that ingredient shows up,
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Dazié
in me and people around me and what's universal about it and what specific.
00;13;21;28 - 00;13;47;18
Pam
That's so interesting because when I read the name of this Suga', there are so many associations and ways. I mean, I grew up in the South, so there are so many ways someone who loves you can call you Suga'. Someone who's kind of dissing you can call you Suga'. It can be such a thing. This word. And I'm so curious.
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Pam
Derrick, you came up with this title. What would you explain about this title?
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Derrick
It has so many different layers to it. For me, I think you named one.
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Derrick
It's it's shown up actually in my work over the last 25 years. It was,
00;14;04;00 - 00;14;05;24
Derrick
my first performance art piece ever,
00;14;05;26 - 00;14;07;09
Derrick
was centered around sugar,
00;14;07;12 - 00;14;10;24
Derrick
and its relationship to the slave trade, actually,
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Derrick
and the kind of fuel that it provided for the proliferation of the slave trade,
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Derrick
the, the to feed that hunger for sugar.
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Derrick
And, it has these,
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Derrick
I think dual meanings and,
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Derrick
impacts on my life. One is my grandmother used to say that, yeah, she's like, give me some Suga'. Which meant, you know, give her a kiss. You know,
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Derrick
it it was something endearing. It was something really sweet calling me Suga'. But then there was also this idea of having Suga' in your tank.
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Derrick
Which I also heard. And,
00;14;41;01 - 00;14;45;12
Derrick
was something that became associated with me and something that led me,
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Derrick
down a path of editing myself and
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Derrick
making myself as invisible as I possibly could because of the consequences of having too much of it
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Derrick
and it showing,
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Derrick
and the impact of that is what was really sitting with me as I was navigating,
00;15;06;02 - 00;15;24;21
Derrick
gender as someone who does not identify with a gender, and that when Dazié was talking about, you know, yeah, we're we're digging into this work and having these conversations and it's like it took him so long to really understand what that experience really was for me.
00;15;24;21 - 00;15;26;18
Derrick
Like what I was saying about it.
00;15;26;21 - 00;15;55;28
Derrick
And that's part of where this, this ritual and this performance comes in, where and where I'm hoping to be changed by this is to really dig into, well, what is at the heart of this for me, as someone who doesn't feel like there's a home necessarily for me over in this box or this box or this box, in a time when pronouns are so important, when identities are so important, what does it mean for me,
00;15;56;01 - 00;15;57;04
Derrick
to be someone,
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Derrick
who,
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Derrick
is existing in this world, not needing those things necessarily in terms of having,
00;16;03;09 - 00;16;06;02
Derrick
a pronoun that I prefer, that I want people to call
00;16;06;02 - 00;16;14;14
Derrick
me not having a gender, that I identify with it and want to create community around, per se, but have still a very,
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Derrick
a very.
00;16;17;29 - 00;16;25;22
Derrick
Vibrant, lived experience that I want to try to understand where it sits within this.
00;16;25;25 - 00;16;53;17
Pam
Okay. So so many questions have popped up into my mind. The first one is I do want to explore the idea of Suga' in your tank. I have not heard that expression until I don't think until you've just said it now, Dazié, and I don't 100% know what it means. I don't know if it's a good thing.
00;16;53;20 - 00;17;02;16
Pam
I don't know if it's a bad thing or if it depends on how you
00;17;02;19 - 00;17;16;28
Pam
relate to it. Meaning? Yeah, I, I yeah, I definitely have sugar in my tank and I'm glad of that because sugar' is awesome or it's so I, I want to know more about this expression because it's not familiar to me.
00;17;17;00 - 00;17;20;09
Dazié
I would say I would start by saying that I love it, like,
00;17;20;09 - 00;17;32;13
Dazié
but I've come to love it. Do you know, I've come to embrace it fully and want and want to have more of it? Like I like when I say so? It's kind like somebody look at somebody and say he's kind of sweet. Do you know what I mean?
00;17;32;13 - 00;17;50;15
Dazié
Like he's a little sweet? I mean, he's a little gay. He's a little soft. He's a little this is a little of that. You know, he he's not as masculine and presenting or moving as he should be or as we're accustomed to seeing, there's something altered about the DNA of this human being that's identifiable. And it can go from one extreme to another, and you can keep dialing the volume up on it right.
00;17;50;22 - 00;17;56;28
Dazié
And so when they say it's got Suga' in the tank, it's like being light on your feet do you know what I mean, it's like that, it's that energy. And I think that,
00;17;56;28 - 00;18;07;28
Dazié
Derrick and I both had a similar experience with the editing himself. The trying to morph into something that was more presentable, more acceptable would be received by our environment in a positive way.
00;18;08;01 - 00;18;26;24
Dazié
Because you come to you come to learn that, like gay before you, you have a sexual orientation or you are practicing homosexual, you have been with somebody of the same gender. You're already having people throw these things on you. You're gay, you're a sissy, you’re this, you’re that. And so you come to understand it's how you move, it's how you speak, it's how you behave.
00;18;27;00 - 00;18;47;02
Dazié
It's how you think. It's what you're wearing. It's all this other stuff that has nothing to do with sexuality. It has to do with the way that you're navigating your own gender in unexpected ways, as usually a male identified person. And when we talk about sissies, I mean, with females, it tends to be tomboys, and it's a different energy.
00;18;47;04 - 00;18;56;17
Dazié
But I got a lot of the, you know, he's sweet he's got sugar in his tank, and I hated myself for it and tried to hide within myself for it and would have a level of anxiety,
00;18;56;20 - 00;19;20;26
Dazié
always present as I move through the world, especially when I got when I became excited, when I when I was expressing myself in a way that I think other people would experience as their freeest self, the less conscious I was of editing and performing how I was supposed to like, the more excited I was, the more I was like in the moment, the more fear that that was going to pop out and be revealed that I carried,
00;19;20;26 - 00;19;22;11
Dazié
you know? So,
00;19;22;11 - 00;19;22;25
Dazié
now
00;19;22;25 - 00;19;38;23
Dazié
I embrace it. Like now it's like, this is the thing that we have in common, and it's an individualistic expression like how you wear it and how it shows up in you is your is yours. But it's a shared ingredient that everybody makes their own recipe with you. You know what? I'm saying? So we can we can see it in each other and we know it’s the base.
00;19;38;23 - 00;19;43;17
Dazié
But like what you do with it is what makes you you it's what makes you,
00;19;43;19 - 00;19;49;13
Dazié
It's where the queering gets celebrated. It's like how it's unique in you.
00;19;49;15 - 00;19;51;06
Pam
Okay. Derrick.
00;19;51;08 - 00;19;51;23
Derrick
Yes.
00;19;51;23 - 00;19;54;28
Pam
What would you add. This is this is your, this is your journey.
00;19;55;00 - 00;19;56;18
Derrick
But what I would add is that
00;19;56;21 - 00;20;02;29
Derrick
so the specifically Suga' in your tank is something I used to hear adults say when they were trying to be polite,
00;20;03;02 - 00;20;04;21
Derrick
when they were wanted to call somebody
00;20;04;21 - 00;20;05;13
Derrick
a slur.
00;20;05;16 - 00;20;17;01
Derrick
And what was interesting about Suga' in your tank is that it was presented as a truth and not necessarily a slur, whereas if somebody was just the F word, they would just call them the F word.
00;20;17;03 - 00;20;29;04
Derrick
But Suga' in your tank or he's a little sweet. Was I, in my experience, was reserved for like, no, he's actually a little sweet. You need to look out for him. Whereas you could just,
00;20;29;06 - 00;20;30;10
Derrick
throw around,
00;20;30;10 - 00;20;31;20
Derrick
homophobic slurs,
00;20;31;23 - 00;20;34;13
Derrick
as a way of just putting anybody in their place,
00;20;34;16 - 00;20;35;28
Derrick
or as a warning shot.
00;20;36;01 - 00;21;03;19
Derrick
But Suga' in the tank was felt like a little bit more precise. And so for me, I felt, oh, immediately a relationship to it. Because even as a young child, as young as five years old and four years old, identifying with that sweetness, understanding that it was there in the way that the world was responding to me and the way that it pushed back at me when I was just like Dazié talked about, when he would get excited for me, it just kind of felt like no matter what I did, the way I walked, it was the way I showed up is the way I looked.
00;21;03;19 - 00;21;21;14
Derrick
It was like, whatever. It wasn't even choices I was making. It was just how I was showing up in the world, naturally. And so for me, it it I also came to really appreciate and start to love that idea that I had this sweetness,
00;21;21;17 - 00;21;29;00
Derrick
in me. And not only that, it was an ingredient the way Dazié is saying, but that it might actually be essential to who I am.
00;21;29;02 - 00;21;39;18
Derrick
It might actually be, in some ways defining of some of my power in the world, in the space that I take up.
00;21;39;20 - 00;21;54;27
Pam
That's fascinating. I mean, well quite honestly, no matter their sexual orientation, I am always looking for those men who are sweet. So glad that you're both talking about this.
00;21;55;00 - 00;22;03;18
Pam
I want to get back to. Okay. Tell me again. It's not a performance. It's not a show ritual.
00;22;03;18 - 00;22;04;02
Dazié
We use the word.
00;22;04;02 - 00;22;09;04
Pam
Ritual, a ritual. Thank you. So
00;22;09;07 - 00;22;34;19
Pam
the way I imagine it is sort of going to the best museum ever. Like, wouldn't you want to go to somebody's personal museum? And then at the end, I'm imagining we get to a space that is more about performance, but we're informed by these spaces we've gone through. And,
00;22;34;19 - 00;22;36;01
Pam
the things that are in the,
00;22;36;06 - 00;22;43;22
Pam
these artifacts that we've seen and has informed us is that is that do you perform in this, I guess is,
00;22;43;24 - 00;22;45;27
Derrick
Yes. Short question. Yes, yes.
00;22;45;27 - 00;22;51;08
Derrick
I do perform in this, and it's my first time performing in over 20 years. 20 plus years,
00;22;51;12 - 00;22;52;08
Derrick
in this way,
00;22;52;11 - 00;22;53;10
Derrick
and,
00;22;53;18 - 00;22;55;27
Derrick
yeah, it's going to be really interesting.
00;22;55;27 - 00;23;01;23
Derrick
There was a point in our process where Dazié just kind of looked at me. He was like,
00;23;01;23 - 00;23;05;12
Derrick
you're gonna need to perform this I was like.
00;23;05;15 - 00;23;06;18
Derrick
Yeah, I guess you're right.
00;23;06;22 - 00;23;11;00
Derrick
Because so much of, of, of what's happening with this work is,
00;23;11;02 - 00;23;12;16
Derrick
is me laying out,
00;23;12;18 - 00;23;14;26
Derrick
my lived experience,
00;23;14;29 - 00;23;16;00
Derrick
as a,
00;23;16;00 - 00;23;26;00
Derrick
as material for really example, examining these, these issues in particular this, this idea of this intersection of Blackness and queerness,
00;23;26;03 - 00;23;29;01
Derrick
really informing what that sweetness actually is.
00;23;29;03 - 00;23;32;09
Derrick
If we were to really think of it as a substance that,
00;23;32;12 - 00;23;33;16
Derrick
for us,
00;23;33;19 - 00;23;45;00
Derrick
our Blackness and queerness, our history, our ancestry, the spirit world or higher powers that inform how we navigate these things, how we learn, how we,
00;23;45;00 - 00;23;46;16
Derrick
come to take risk.
00;23;46;19 - 00;23;52;04
Derrick
In order to get to another place of growth or realization or freedom.
00;23;52;07 - 00;24;01;08
Dazié
We're told we have access to as well, which there's a, there's there's a way in which I feel like Blackness creates access to a specific set of keys.
00;24;01;11 - 00;24;10;17
Dazié
The simplest way I've ever said it is white folks can have history. Black folks get ancestry. I I've been taught that as a Black person, I have this available to me.
00;24;10;17 - 00;24;28;24
Dazié
There's a whole universal world and legacy that I have access to, that spiritual that belongs to me, and I can choose to acknowledge and engage it or not. It's there holding me. It's there like carrying me, whether or not I want to interact with it or I can engage with it intentionally. And I think that that's where it becomes ritual.
00;24;28;24 - 00;24;41;09
Dazié
That's where it becomes ceremony. That's where it becomes. This is a process of making taking this moment and making this space in these things sacred, as opposed to just having them be tangible, pedestrian objects like they are,
00;24;41;12 - 00;24;48;27
Dazié
being engaged with. And they're being activated, for this purpose because they're being treated in this way and they're being given this value and this meaning.
00;24;48;27 - 00;25;06;05
Dazié
And you're able to do this as a Black person because we've always created our spirituality through our connection to ancestry, through our current imagination, it’s consistently evolving, and it's always innovating in this country at this time. For us, we're always moving forward. It's always about,
00;25;06;13 - 00;25;15;01
Dazié
getting more information and adjusting and adjusting it so we can deepen and deepen and deepen our connection, which was initially for us, something we were cut off from.
00;25;15;04 - 00;25;22;00
Dazié
So I think there's a way in which we're perpetually looking for connection, perpetually looking for our origin, and always,
00;25;22;00 - 00;25;36;17
Dazié
thinking about directing where we would like to go next, because there's been uncertainty consistently about where we come from. But what we can do is be sure about where we're going. So there's that duality, that relationship that happens in Blackness that,
00;25;36;20 - 00;25;42;16
Dazié
I feel like it's something we're called to and that we are told as Black creators that we get to dabble in.
00;25;42;16 - 00;25;53;00
Dazié
I don't think that other ethnicities and other people don't have access to these things, but I don't know that their eye is actively trained consistently to look there for them
00;25;53;03 - 00;25;53;18
Dazié
in the way that,
00;25;53;18 - 00;25;56;02
Dazié
I think that Black people are.
00;25;56;05 - 00;26;17;19
Pam
Yeah, that's really interesting. I'm wondering too, I mean, we're talking about the intersection of Blackness and queerness and is there I'm asking you, do you feel like there's an inherent tension that actually through pieces like this, you work through that?
00;26;17;22 - 00;26;38;22
Dazié
I feel like we there's a way in which we've revealed a lack of tension that naturally happens in Black community that doesn't start to show itself or manifest until we start looking over our shoulder. When I say that, I mean looking for the white gaze to critique us or tell us who we are, who we should be, or where we've gone gone awry or wrong.
00;26;38;27 - 00;26;53;24
Dazié
Right? So there's a way in which has always been queer family. There's always been queer archetypes that belong to the Black community, like the choir boy, you know, there's always been these places and these spaces in our community that these folks are expected to be.
00;26;53;27 - 00;26;59;28
Dazié
And when we don't question it, it's just what it is. When we start to explain it, when we start, we start trying to defend it.
00;27;00;03 - 00;27;08;14
Dazié
And when we start defending it, we don't like that feeling and so we start to reject it in ourselves and push it away in our community. But it's always been there. And I think that we naturally,
00;27;08;17 - 00;27;19;05
Dazié
in a familial, in a, in a tribal way, like in our local way, in our friend way, it's fine, when it becomes political, when it becomes bigger, then we start having issues.
00;27;19;08 - 00;27;31;06
Pam
Right? And I like how you framed it within the white gaze, because suddenly something that's not a problem becomes a problem. Yeah.
00;27;31;08 - 00;27;42;06
Dazié
Yeah, yeah. I mean, we have one of the ideas that we fell upon and that we are, that we're exploring in this work is the idea that we were already free is something that I came up with.
00;27;42;06 - 00;27;46;21
Dazié
Just think we were already free. Like, so we're trying to.
00;27;46;24 - 00;28;07;14
Dazié
Declare our freedom, which we already had. We're trying to perform our freedom now and demonstrate our freedom. But it was already there. Like we don't actually need to do anything except for accept ourselves, our natural selves. And so we started looking for the way that queerness shows up in Black community that's not defined as gay, lesbian, this, gender, this like.
00;28;07;14 - 00;28;08;02
Dazié
And we started,
00;28;08;02 - 00;28;14;11
Dazié
we looked at P-Funk, sort of thinking about that. We started thinking about artists like Prince. We started looking at there was,
00;28;14;11 - 00;28;24;21
Dazié
an era in the 90s, early 2000. What was very common to see a gangster rapper from South Central Los Angeles with pressed hair and curls, like where they would curl their hair, you know, things that were like, hyper feminine,
00;28;24;24 - 00;28;34;09
Dazié
and in one way were were claimed to be hyper masculine, so there’s this way in which we played with gender and androgyny quite naturally and found freedom there.
00;28;34;11 - 00;28;38;26
Dazié
And nobody questioned it because it wasn't about a sexual orientation. It wasn't it wasn't,
00;28;38;29 - 00;28;46;18
Dazié
something that was going to challenge the church. It wasn't something that was going to make us look bad to the white man or, or make us feel like we had to,
00;28;46;18 - 00;28;51;10
Dazié
explain who we were and how we move, we were just doing it and nobody questioned it.
00;28;51;17 - 00;28;55;03
Dazié
It's the moment that I feel like people have to explain it that,
00;28;55;03 - 00;28;58;10
Dazié
we start getting into weird territory. And I think that,
00;28;58;10 - 00;29;06;03
Dazié
the question of gender came up really early on in this piece. And so I automatically went to, you know, non-binary, transgender,
00;29;06;10 - 00;29;17;20
Dazié
what people are doing in our community around gender, these deep conversations I'm hearing, the queering of gender, all this stuff that's happening and felt like, this is hands off, you know, because if you're not transgender and you're not claiming to be non-binary, you don't get to talk about this.
00;29;17;23 - 00;29;39;07
Dazié
And then started thinking about gender as a tool for liberation. And what if my gender became a way into my own freedom as a person who identifies with their gender completely? And I think through this process, I realized that embracing of it is almost a defense. Like I went from being a sissy to being someone who started, who had learned to present
00;29;39;07 - 00;29;46;05
Dazié
in a more masculine way, and that allowed me to navigate the world and get my needs met in a way that felt safe and secure.
00;29;46;13 - 00;30;05;03
Dazié
So I have embraced being male because I found safety in it. But for folks that didn't find safety in it, for folks who never identified with it, for folks who don't need that in order to move for the world or don't want it because they find it limiting, there's a different discussion happening.
00;30;05;05 - 00;30;07;14
Pam
I'm really curious to hear your thoughts Derrick.
00;30;07;16 - 00;30;14;03
Derrick
What Dazié just touched on was an interesting point of actually tension in our conversations that we had because
00;30;14;06 - 00;30;17;14
Derrick
because Dazié had an experience where he
00;30;17;16 - 00;30;19;22
Derrick
like a paraphrase, like he was able to find,
00;30;19;22 - 00;30;21;06
Derrick
refuge within,
00;30;21;06 - 00;30;22;19
Derrick
identifying with,
00;30;22;19 - 00;30;26;08
Derrick
maleness or masculinity or identifying as a man.
00;30;26;11 - 00;30;32;18
Derrick
And these are all experiences that I never felt were ever available to me, like it was never actually an option for me,
00;30;32;21 - 00;30;35;00
Derrick
and also it was never an interest either.
00;30;35;02 - 00;30;53;01
Derrick
So I was never interested. And it was it just wasn't an option. It was like, girl, you're hopeless. It's not it's not happening for you, you know? And I learned that very, very early, you know, so so the way I metabolize that, like, as a, as a young person was, oh, then there's something wrong with me.
00;30;53;04 - 00;30;55;08
Derrick
I'm not for this world.
00;30;55;11 - 00;30;56;04
Derrick
And,
00;30;56;06 - 00;31;00;06
Derrick
and, you know, while we don't get into this in the show, per se,
00;31;00;09 - 00;31;19;22
Derrick
for me, that led to suicidal ideation. It literally meant, oh, well, you know, if the goal is to be as invisible as possible, why not just be gone? Because the pain was so much, and it was so constant, and it was so relentless, and there wasn't another option, but there wasn't an out for me,
00;31;19;25 - 00;31;23;03
Derrick
that I was willing to accept at such a young age which
00;31;23;05 - 00;31;32;24
Derrick
boggles my mind that I was processing all of this at such a young age. And I think that what I have
00;31;32;26 - 00;31;36;02
Derrick
come to understand since, since doing this work,
00;31;36;05 - 00;31;47;17
Derrick
and putting, you know, having these conversations with Dazié really digging in and thinking about gender, thinking about my relationship to it, thinking about that experience is that,
00;31;47;20 - 00;31;49;09
Derrick
you know, there is.
00;31;49;11 - 00;31;54;07
Derrick
There's a way in which the world that we occupy,
00;31;54;10 - 00;32;14;28
Derrick
that we step into, has these containers for us, says, jump into one of these. You're good. And you know, the the containers can change or shift and do all the things, but they're all there are always containers. And what we are hypothesizing with this work is that,
00;32;15;01 - 00;32;16;14
Derrick
and also borrowing
00;32;16;16 - 00;32;18;02
Derrick
heavy inspiration from,
00;32;18;02 - 00;32;19;06
Derrick
Marquise Bey,
00;32;19;09 - 00;32;19;29
Derrick
a writer,
00;32;19;29 - 00;32;21;06
Derrick
and philosopher,
00;32;21;09 - 00;32;25;22
Derrick
who did a book called System Failure is a series of essays on, on this topic.
00;32;25;24 - 00;32;27;13
Derrick
Is that,
00;32;27;15 - 00;32;42;08
Derrick
just by virtue of who we are as Black and queer people in a white supremacist society, we're never going to fit into any of those boxes. There's always going to be some amount that's going to what Marquise Bey calls spill out and spill over. And so
00;32;42;08 - 00;32;46;20
Derrick
for me, that's the thought that, you know, that that that turned on a light for me.
00;32;46;20 - 00;32;57;06
Derrick
I was like, oh, that's the Suga'. Like that's that stuff, that essential stuff. It can't be contained.
00;32;57;08 - 00;33;04;23
Pam
So interesting. That's so interesting. Well.
00;33;04;26 - 00;33;25;23
Dazié
So frustrating, I think, I mean, to think about, like, almost being obsessed with wanting to be accepted, wanting to fit in, wanting to be loved, wanting to survive this environment that feels so dangerous, and being told that you have to edit yourself to become this thing that will make you that. And then to come to find out over and over and over again.
00;33;25;25 - 00;33;47;29
Dazié
It can't be edited out. It's always going to overflow. You can't get rid of it. It's it's the defining thing. It's the container. It's what we can't stop seeing. You can't get around it. And that's the wall that I think people are banging their head up against when it comes to white supremacy. It's like this fatigue that this realization, like no matter what you do, it's the spillage.
00;33;48;02 - 00;34;02;07
Dazié
No matter what you do, it's just there's excess. It will not fit. It cannot be contained. And that's how you've defined it. And you made it that way because we can perpetually try and never get there. And that's where you that's where you find your power.
00;34;02;09 - 00;34;13;05
Pam
Right? And as you speak, I mean, that's the catch of you said white supremacy. One of you said, Maybe I'm patriarchy.
00;34;13;08 - 00;34;28;18
Pam
Yeah. And that's that for me. As you speak, what comes to mind are people who have become very toxic from trying to fit into.
00;34;28;20 - 00;34;53;27
Pam
from trying... I mean, the majority of the population in this country at least, is not going to fit into the box, the power box of white supremacy and patriarchy. And when I see people who I think become have become very toxic, they've kind of done the opposite of what the two of you are doing in terms of creating this ritual.
00;34;53;29 - 00;35;23;28
Pam
And really, really exploring, as you're saying, Dazié, these aspects that you already had that I almost feel like, yes, you have to explore that time trying to fit in, but then you also have to explore, you know, what spills over is that essential part that it sounds like you're getting to that is really makes you who you are.
00;35;24;00 - 00;35;48;14
Dazié
I think the instinct to survival that we are just trying to survive and thrive, and I think you have one group of people that are discovering that their survival is dependent on accepting themselves and getting free from these limitations, these containers that are actually, quite literally killing people, whether they're they're doing it to themselves or having it done from an outside source.
00;35;48;20 - 00;36;04;04
Dazié
And then you have another group of people who have and they feel like their survival is under threat, but it's imaginary. It's a it's an irrational fear. And we know this. We see it, but they want us to treat them as if they're actually under a threat. And I think we're seeing that happen
00;36;04;04 - 00;36;06;14
Dazié
in a lot of ways right now politically in our country.
00;36;06;14 - 00;36;29;03
Dazié
But there's like people who under very real threat of actually being exterminated and people whose just preference for how they want the world to look is under threat, you know, rather than their physical survival and well-being. So I think that the root of all this instinct to explore is coming from a desire to survive and overcome,
00;36;29;06 - 00;36;42;22
Dazié
the environments that we started in, you know, whether they be familiar environments that they started at home like from our nuclear families, or if it's the communities that we went out into when we went to school or walked down the street or, you know, walking to our places of employment and so on and so forth, you know,
00;36;42;22 - 00;36;46;01
Dazié
it just gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And the,
00;36;46;04 - 00;37;18;02
Dazié
the only way to I think actually. Spiritually, like, get beyond it is to get free to accept yourself. And it's to take pride in the Suga'. It's to embrace it because you can't change what's around you, but you can change the way that you experience yourself. And you can you can adjust your willingness to experience yourself based on the actual, authentic version of you, rather than this performed like edited, presented version of you.
00;37;18;04 - 00;37;25;29
Dazié
One feels like it's strangling you, and the other one feels like it's gonna refresh you and help you thrive.
00;37;26;02 - 00;37;29;21
Pam
Yeah. I have a question for you, Derrick.
00;37;29;24 - 00;37;46;26
Pam
I'm really curious about the origins of this idea for you. Is this something that you've been turning over for a while, thinking, I would really like to create an art ritual around
00;37;46;28 - 00;37;47;25
Pam
this journey.
00;37;47;28 - 00;37;59;08
Pam
I'm so curious to know how it really crystallized into. Yes, I'm going to do this. Let's go for it with Bundle of Sticks.
00;37;59;11 - 00;38;16;10
Derrick
I think it's it started with a push that I was feeling to respond to the discourse around gender that I was being exposed to, in my everyday life and my social media life and,
00;38;16;10 - 00;38;17;21
Derrick
relationships with,
00;38;17;21 - 00;38;25;21
Derrick
my loved ones, with my partner, with Dazié. it just seemed like it kept coming up and,
00;38;25;24 - 00;38;34;07
Derrick
and I and I'm the type of person that I tend to pay attention to those things and like, okay, I'm being called to really bring some energy and attention to this.
00;38;34;09 - 00;38;48;05
Derrick
And I think it was it was really through the experience of working with Dazié on The Changer and the Changed and seeing just how intimate that process was and how how much we were able to,
00;38;48;05 - 00;38;52;16
Derrick
how deep we were able to go that I felt like that was the space I wanted to,
00;38;52;16 - 00;38;54;05
Derrick
to bring this into,
00;38;54;08 - 00;38;59;07
Derrick
as opposed to, you know, on my own doing, you know, doing something,
00;38;59;10 - 00;39;03;06
Derrick
it showed me that there's a possibility to dive into this in a deeper way.
00;39;03;09 - 00;39;08;20
Derrick
And I would even describe some of what we did with Changer and the Changed as ritual and,
00;39;08;20 - 00;39;12;02
Derrick
and, and that that really opened up the possibility for that,
00;39;12;04 - 00;39;13;28
Derrick
for that, for this work as well,
00;39;14;01 - 00;39;15;19
Derrick
that this could be something that,
00;39;15;22 - 00;39;20;20
Derrick
is connected to my spiritual self that's connected to a,
00;39;20;20 - 00;39;25;09
Derrick
an intention of actually changing myself as an artist going through this process,
00;39;25;09 - 00;39;29;02
Derrick
and in community with, with an audience.
00;39;29;05 - 00;39;32;06
Derrick
So that flip, that switch flipped for me.
00;39;32;06 - 00;39;34;06
Derrick
Probably two years ago,
00;39;34;09 - 00;39;40;16
Derrick
when our conversations really kind of kicked over to let's really dig into what this what this could be,
00;39;40;19 - 00;39;45;15
Derrick
and, and I also think that, you know, you know, Dazié mentioned,
00;39;45;18 - 00;39;48;09
Derrick
survival being a kind of core,
00;39;48;12 - 00;39;51;09
Derrick
driver or motivator for me.
00;39;51;12 - 00;39;54;06
Derrick
And this is what's interesting, our conversations, they do this all the time for me.
00;39;54;06 - 00;40;09;18
Derrick
That wasn't my my experience. I totally get how that is the experience for a lot of people. Survival for me was always just the thing that you did. Like it's just this thing that that I do. It's like, yeah, I know how to survive. But like for me, this work is is about,
00;40;09;21 - 00;40;12;00
Derrick
what was possible was possible for me.
00;40;12;00 - 00;40;40;02
Derrick
Beyond that, it's like we get how to survive. We've been doing it for a long time. What's essential and true about who I am, about who we are that we can hold on to, that we can manifest and we can blossom into. That isn't about survival. That's just about the core of who we are. And I think that also motivated me to do it in this way.
00;40;40;04 - 00;40;49;19
Pam
Wow. I'm so this is kind of a stupid question, but I'm going to ask it anyway.
00;40;49;21 - 00;40;50;21
Pam
Is there ever,
00;40;50;24 - 00;41;05;06
Pam
a challenge between the two of you to know if you're working just as friends or as members of the art collective? Like like, how do these conversations get started? Is what I'm so curious about.
00;41;05;09 - 00;41;37;06
Dazié
I think this this conversation started almost instantaneously when we met. Like, this is why what we these conversations is what we bonded over. It was we immediately were like gotten to conversations about the world, our identity, like how we're functioning or how we're moving. What was and we were we related to. We were both very much interested in talking about what we were experiencing and having someone else validate, invalidate, challenge like, and we would go back and forth and conversation for years.
00;41;37;06 - 00;41;52;16
Dazié
That's what we did. That's what we do. I think it's I feel like the Bundle of Sticks has is almost a content container that's been put around what was already happening, it’s a stage, like, let me give you a stage for this to happen on this. It’s same thing was happening. Now I'm going to do it on a stage and call it a performance.
00;41;52;18 - 00;41;53;23
Dazié
But it was already going on.
00;41;53;29 - 00;42;21;17
Dazié
We're just going to give it context, give it a reason. And, and but nothing other than that is different. Like we would be doing this with or without Bundle of Sticks. We'd be doing this with or without an audience. We were in these conversations with one another and we raised each other. I was thinking about this and like we've raised each other from very uncertain teenage just coming out people into these fully functioning, confident, certain,
00;42;21;25 - 00;42;31;12
Dazié
humans that are still challenging the world around them, but are so much clearer about themselves because we we've reflected each other like we we disagree with one another, but are good with that.
00;42;31;14 - 00;42;47;25
Dazié
We just keep defining ourselves and having a witness who's willing who's willing to be like, yeah, that sounds like it's reality for you. Yeah. That's sound. Yeah, that makes sense. I see that, and then we'll push you a little bit further and be like, have you thought about this or I don't see it that way. And then you're like,
00;42;47;27 - 00;43;04;12
Dazié
And you trust them enough and feel safe enough that they're not attacking you. They're giving you an opportunity to see this from a different place at the table, right? To question whether or not you can be moved forward or uplifted by this, this new idea. It's it's amazing to have the friendship that,
00;43;04;14 - 00;43;07;24
Dazié
is the basis for all of this exploration.
00;43;07;26 - 00;43;10;06
Pam
Yeah.
00;43;10;09 - 00;43;13;21
Pam
What would you say, Derrick?
00;43;13;23 - 00;43;15;17
Derrick
Yeah. Your original question was,
00;43;15;17 - 00;43;17;26
Derrick
the kind of the line between type of
00;43;17;26 - 00;43;18;17
Derrick
type of deal.
00;43;18;19 - 00;43;19;05
Pam
Is there a.
00;43;19;07 - 00;43;23;00
Derrick
Line? Definitely not a line. Yes, there is no line.
00;43;23;03 - 00;43;26;24
Derrick
Yeah, I if anything, I think the the Bundle of Sticks,
00;43;26;24 - 00;43;29;10
Derrick
Bundle of Sticks is like the,
00;43;29;13 - 00;43;34;17
Derrick
it's like the organizing container, if you will, for our,
00;43;34;17 - 00;43;38;19
Derrick
our ness, our that thing that happens,
00;43;38;22 - 00;43;42;18
Derrick
with us and,
00;43;42;20 - 00;43;45;26
Derrick
Yeah. Yeah, I kind of feel like that's what it is.
00;43;45;28 - 00;44;01;06
Derrick
But what it what it does for us, is it it I think it allows us to anchor ourselves in. This is not just a conversation that we're having with each other. Like, this is a conversation that we want to be able to be to, to have with our community.
00;44;01;09 - 00;44;03;24
Derrick
So how do we do that? So
00;44;03;24 - 00;44;08;08
Derrick
I think that's really what, what the difference is.
00;44;08;10 - 00;44;29;07
Dazié
And it's happened in order like I think about like The Changer and the Changed needed to happen before Suga' because I think The Changer and the Change is where like we got really intentional about understanding that we wanted to be changed by our process, like asking what's changes, how have we changed in life? And then being like, well, if I'm changing here and things are happening, I want to change on purpose.
00;44;29;07 - 00;44;37;08
Dazié
What do I want to not? I'm just being change. What would I like to change? What would I like to explore? Where would I like to go? How do I want to be impacted? Because we spent
00;44;37;11 - 00;44;46;04
Dazié
our last whole performance was about how have I been impacted? Who's impacting me? Why have I been impacted? You know what's different now and say, well, if I'm getting impacted, what do I want to have impact me?
00;44;46;05 - 00;44;51;21
Dazié
What is it? You know, and coming at it from a different way where it feels more ...J don’t want to use the owrd empowered, but,
00;44;51;21 - 00;44;55;12
Dazié
more intentional, like, let me do this. Let me do this on purpose.
00;44;55;14 - 00;45;31;25
Pam
Yeah. And it's so interesting too, because having been an audience member of The Changer and the Changed, There's another point of impact. And I think that it is on people who experience this because, we all walked out of there. It wasn't only, oh, now I really know a lot about Dazié, but it really was like, wow, how am I thinking about not only my journey, but everyone's journey.
00;45;31;28 - 00;45;58;16
Pam
And I imagine that it's going to be very similar for this particular ritual Suga', because I think, I think you in these types of works, you are asking us to really engage with that in a way that impacts us and changes us. Yeah.
00;45;58;19 - 00;46;10;10
Derrick
I would agree. I mean, that's that's the that's the offering and the invitation with these is that there there might be something there for you that you can take with you.
00;46;10;12 - 00;46;18;29
Derrick
That might change you or change how you see things or, and with this one in particular, how you might change this change or see yourself,
00;46;19;01 - 00;46;30;27
Derrick
even even to the, to the level with the Suga', how you might change the way in which you encounter someone.
00;46;30;29 - 00;46;34;11
Pam
Explain that a little bit more. The way in which you encounter someone.
00;46;34;11 - 00;46;38;28
Derrick
So, you know, when we encounter people, we,
00;46;38;28 - 00;46;40;03
Derrick
there's an impulse,
00;46;40;03 - 00;46;52;29
Derrick
I believe, to try to understand as much as we can right off the bat, right off the bat. What does this person look like? What does that tell me? You know, what color are they? How they dress?
00;46;53;02 - 00;46;54;20
Derrick
they giving me man, are they giving me woman,
00;46;54;20 - 00;46;59;15
Derrick
Are they giving me something else? Like what is this like that. That that's in front of me right now?
00;46;59;18 - 00;47;04;03
Derrick
And there's a lot of different things that inform that, you know, there's like a desire to,
00;47;04;06 - 00;47;16;07
Derrick
for some, it's a desire to want to make sure that they say and do the right thing. for others, It's a desire to want to make sure that that person, they know how to how that person is usable to them.
00;47;16;09 - 00;47;16;25
Derrick
So,
00;47;17;01 - 00;47;25;00
Derrick
so my hope is that this show helps disrupt that a little bit or just kind of put a spotlight on that, just even just that,
00;47;25;03 - 00;47;26;05
Derrick
so that we can,
00;47;26;05 - 00;47;32;27
Derrick
allow each other to show up how we are and we can be perceived how we are.
00;47;32;29 - 00;47;36;09
Dazié
A word that comes up a lot that I think is really has really helped me,
00;47;36;09 - 00;47;42;27
Dazié
is the word legibility. We've talked a lot about being legible. The importance of being legible to others.
00;47;43;04 - 00;47;51;26
Dazié
And not that being an important something that we have the desire to be, but it's important to the person who's observing us. They want us to be as legible as possible.
00;47;51;26 - 00;47;55;12
Dazié
They want us to they want to be able to acquire as much information on
00;47;55;12 - 00;48;15;24
Dazié
site as possible, so they can determine whether or not, whether whether you're usable, whether you're threatening, whether you're safe, whether you're kin or or foe. Like, they they they want to know what they're dealing with as much as possible out the gate. You know, I think that most people that I know believe or
00;48;15;27 - 00;48;28;13
Dazié
most people that I know have an understanding that they are not their bodies, whether they believe in a soul or spirit or they believe in the mind and the consciousness, like people don't think that that voice in their head or the energy that they are, is their
00;48;28;13 - 00;49;06;06
Dazié
bodies. But we require people to define themselves through what their physical body is. So I think there's a way in which we all, we all know and understand this in a way in which we completely force ourselves to be in conflict with it. When we try to identify ourselves or explain ourselves, or present ourselves, or become usable or make someone usable to us, and suddenly we get really small and I think what Derrick offered me was an opportunity to, through a long series, I mean, a long period of time over a year, in a series of conversations where I'm banging my head against a wall, thinking I'm going somewhere to find like, oh, you mean
00;49;06;06 - 00;49;24;03
Dazié
you mean the thing that you said the first time you said that you don't identify with the that's what you meant, that you don't see yourself as having a gender, like I had to fight this every from every direction possible and then be like, oh, you mean you don't really see the morpheme like it's neither. You're not saying that I was at best was going to give it.
00;49;24;03 - 00;49;39;19
Dazié
You're non-binary. I was willing to do that. Do you know what I mean? Like, but that's that's again that's another little container that I was familiar with that would make Derrick legible usable, containable. I know how to explain this to other people and how to interact. Now I'm like, well, we changing our pronouns like, what do we do now?
00;49;39;23 - 00;49;54;27
Dazié
How do I support you in this, right? And Derrick’s like, I don't I don't identify with those things like, what does that mean? How can you have this experience where you define yourself in a way that I don't? You have to, you know what I mean? Like, you have to I have to understand it was trippy to me and still is.
00;49;54;27 - 00;49;57;12
Dazié
I'm like, how? I mean, it was a year.
00;49;57;15 - 00;50;02;09
Pam
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get that. I get that.
00;50;02;09 - 00;50;03;29
Dazié
It’s absurd. And it was the first thing he said.
00;50;04;02 - 00;50;05;10
Pam
Yeah.
00;50;05;12 - 00;50;06;15
Dazié
Oh my God. It’s silly.
00;50;06;17 - 00;50;06;24
Pam
It's,
00;50;06;24 - 00;50;14;18
Pam
it's it's it's so surprising that that would be radical.
00;50;14;20 - 00;50;30;02
Pam
Well, yeah, but but that there's been such a push to get the pronouns right to expand our idea of gender. And then someone comes along. You, Derrick. And just like I don't play in that sandbox.
00;50;30;08 - 00;50;33;18
Derrick
Yeah, basically. Yeah, yeah.
00;50;33;20 - 00;50;50;18
Dazié
Derrick said to me that was really profound. Is is a conclusion we came to from that conversation. And that realization was like, I want you to deal with me like I am Derrick. I Derrick not like all these other like me like this is, this is who I am. Like, I'm not all these other things and I don't want to navigate the world through those boxes.
00;50;50;18 - 00;51;06;04
Dazié
I don't want to be limited. I don't want your perception to be limited. Before you get to me through these boxes like I don't. I'm not about that. Like I'm really, you know, and me being like, but I so I am like, because I, I've done something else with where I'm like, well, how can I make this work for me?
00;51;06;08 - 00;51;21;28
Dazié
How is it convenient for me? I know how to present, how to posture, how to move, how to how to indicate. So I get what I want out of the world around me, you know what I'm saying? I know how to navigate. I know how to get from here to there. If I accept these things and I become dependent on them.
00;51;22;05 - 00;51;28;20
Dazié
And I think a lot of people are, and they're disturbed by someone who say, I'm not participating.
00;51;28;20 - 00;51;47;18
Pam
Well, and It just challenges. I mean, I'm thinking back that earlier I said, you know, I always am looking for men who are sweet and that's already using this gender category. You could have said, I'm always looking for people who are sweet, but then when I want to get specific and try and name the two of you, it it is challenging.
00;51;47;21 - 00;51;58;21
Pam
It is because I don't necessarily there are some sweet people out there that I'm not interested in. Yeah. So it's it is challenging. It is challenging.
00;51;58;21 - 00;51;59;08
Derrick
It is.
00;51;59;13 - 00;52;06;18
Pam
I'm for for you Derrick I'm so curious. Do you.
00;52;06;20 - 00;52;15;06
Pam
Do you want to create new language definitions or are you really challenging us to not do that?
00;52;15;09 - 00;52;21;13
Derrick
I'm not there yet. Like I think I think what I'm what I'm challenging is the,
00;52;21;16 - 00;52;32;05
Derrick
is the or what I'm what? I'm. I won't say that I'm the only one doing it, but what I want to preface with that, but I'm participating in the challenge of,
00;52;32;05 - 00;52;43;02
Derrick
that we don't have that. It's not required of us to be legible in order to be a person, in order to be a human being.
00;52;43;04 - 00;52;45;25
Derrick
In order to have value,
00;52;45;28 - 00;52;50;29
Derrick
and in order to participate. So I feel like,
00;52;51;02 - 00;52;53;11
Derrick
from what I, what I don't participate in,
00;52;53;18 - 00;52;56;00
Derrick
not actively anyway, is,
00;52;56;02 - 00;52;59;00
Derrick
aligning myself in such a way that,
00;52;59;00 - 00;53;06;06
Derrick
whether that be through my presentation, my identity, my pronouns, the community that I build so that,
00;53;06;09 - 00;53;07;16
Derrick
so that I can
00;53;07;16 - 00;53;12;18
Derrick
participate in, in a very particular way in which I’m legible and I can access all the things.
00;53;12;21 - 00;53;16;17
Derrick
It's like there are,
00;53;16;19 - 00;53;25;24
Derrick
the, the way I maneuver through the world today is like the same way I did when I was five years old. When I was five years old, I could understand if I do this. This happens as I do that. That happens.
00;53;25;27 - 00;53;30;01
Derrick
I could, I could, I could navigate what where safety wasn't where it wasn't.
00;53;30;03 - 00;53;34;27
Derrick
I also understood that who I was then,
00;53;35;00 - 00;53;56;22
Derrick
was is what it is and that to try and push and and and enfold myself into some other shape was too painful. I'm not having any of it. So the clothes I wear are the ones that fit on my body and I think are cute. Most of my clothes, I don't even think are cute, but they’re ones that will fit my body because I'm six foot five.
00;53;56;25 - 00;54;09;01
Derrick
If I were shorter, maybe a little thinner and they have more options, maybe you will see me running around in a little skirt or some shit like that, but you know, but like right now that's not happening. It might happen, you know, and it has happened. But,
00;54;09;01 - 00;54;16;04
Derrick
but that doesn't tell you anything more or less about me is is kind of where I'm coming from.
00;54;16;06 - 00;54;44;09
Pam
So fascinating. Well, Dazié you brought up kind of where we are in our current political, cultural, social situation. And I'm so curious, how do both of you see the importance of sharing this particular story right now?
00;54;44;12 - 00;54;50;10
Dazié
It's so big, you know, it's so much,
00;54;50;13 - 00;54;55;05
Dazié
I experience when you ask that question is.
00;54;55;08 - 00;55;08;22
Dazié
That's too big, for me to understand, comprehend and be intentional about and do this work, what we're doing, because it's had to become deeply personal,
00;55;08;25 - 00;55;19;27
Dazié
and deeply like I, I've had to make I can make room now for this human being that I'm sitting across from Derrick and I love Derrick, and I want Derrick to be heard and seen.
00;55;19;29 - 00;55;43;08
Dazié
Derrick does that for me. Right? So I'm going to like, stop assuming things. I'm going to stop. This is just about what I can understand about Derrick. I can do that. when I start thinking about the world, and it gets so big that I start thinking politically and I start thinking presentation, I start thinking of all these other things start to interfere with the actual intention and truth of it for me, you know, and it becomes less available to me.
00;55;43;10 - 00;56;09;09
Dazié
So like, I think what I would say is we've created this really personal thing and we're putting it in a very public place so that other people can observe it and make use of what they can with the fundamental belief that it is good, that it has been useful to us, that we have found freedom there, and we want to continue to explore it, explore it.
00;56;09;11 - 00;56;09;28
Dazié
And that
00;56;10;01 - 00;56;21;20
Dazié
I think when you model freedom for other people or how you've that can be contagious and that people are going to have to make not do what we've done, but make it their own.
00;56;21;23 - 00;56;31;01
Dazié
And when I get beyond this relationship, it starts. It starts to intimidate me, It starts to feel scary. I start to feel hopeless. I start to feel overwhelmed.
00;56;31;08 - 00;56;46;04
Dazié
I start to feel like it can't be done. I start feeling like I have to explain to too many people in too many different language, too many ways. And I'm like, I'm gonna fail. But I believe that I can, and I actually have experience that I can be changed by Derrick. Derrick can change me, that we can make space for each other.
00;56;46;06 - 00;56;57;11
Dazié
And this performance work, this conversation even, is evidence of all that work and all that's available and possible.
00;56;57;13 - 00;56;58;21
Derrick
Yeah.
00;56;58;23 - 00;57;04;13
Derrick
So I'm the optimist of the two of us.
00;57;04;16 - 00;57;15;16
Derrick
And I mean, for me, there's so much really at any, any given time, there are so many forces that are,
00;57;15;16 - 00;57;17;13
Derrick
attempting to,
00;57;17;16 - 00;57;22;12
Derrick
not just contain, but to compress, to break, to,
00;57;22;12 - 00;57;26;21
Derrick
malign, to erase, to eradicate us.
00;57;26;24 - 00;57;34;18
Derrick
Whoever us is, there's just so many and right now we're living in a time, at least in this country where,
00;57;34;24 - 00;57;41;14
Derrick
you know, we have too many people with a blank check on being able to exact all kinds of harm,
00;57;41;17 - 00;57;42;19
Derrick
on us.
00;57;42;21 - 00;57;43;15
Derrick
And,
00;57;43;18 - 00;58;01;24
Derrick
and it's just like it's out in the open now. It's not sneaky anymore. It's not happening behind the scenes. It's on the front page. It's in the tweets. It's it's at your doorstep. It's, you know, Ice agents come to snatching you up and tearing you down, shooting you in the back like that's where we're at. And it's not the first time we've been here and it hasn't.
00;58;01;28 - 00;58;26;26
Derrick
This isn't the worst it's ever been. But I think why the conversation that we're having and the experience that we're putting forward to our community is important right now is because of the possibility that it implies is because of the space that it creates beyond the performance space and the ritual in the hearts and the minds and the spirits of everybody who's involved.
00;58;27;01 - 00;58;48;04
Derrick
Because we need that. We need that fortification right now to deal with this, this mess. And I think it needs to come from all angles. And why not this one? This is an important one. How we show up with each other? How we allow each other to show up is precisely what we need to fortify our strength as we're dealing with,
00;58;48;06 - 00;58;56;05
Derrick
all of this hostility.
00;58;56;07 - 00;59;02;29
Pam
And, God, now you're making me wish that there was video with this podcast, Dazié..
00;59;03;02 - 00;59;05;12
Dazié
I love I just I love it.
00;59;05;14 - 00;59;12;05
Pam
Yeah, yeah. So,
00;59;12;07 - 00;59;32;23
Pam
I could speak with you both for so much longer, but what I do want to happen before we say goodbye is for you to tell people where this is happening, when it's happening, and how they can come engage with this.
00;59;32;26 - 00;59;42;23
Derrick
Okay. Yeah, absolutely. So it's happening is opening May 29th. It's a Friday. It's going to be at Eastside Arts Alliance in Oakland.
00;59;42;26 - 00;59;44;11
Derrick
It's going to
00;59;44;11 - 00;59;53;19
Derrick
show for three days. So we'll also have a show on Saturday the 30th. And we'll also have a matinee on Sunday the 12th. The,
00;59;53;19 - 01;00;00;08
Derrick
doors will open an hour ahead of time for people to be able to experience the space.
01;00;00;11 - 01;00;13;19
Derrick
Before the show, when ritual begins. And that's also something that's really important to us. We want to be able to give folks an opportunity, in their own time, to be able to experience the artifacts, the artwork in the show.
01;00;13;22 - 01;00;14;17
Derrick
Before,
01;00;14;17 - 01;00;17;26
Derrick
we tell you what, what it all is.
01;00;17;29 - 01;00;18;20
Derrick
Anything else you want to add, Daz?
01;00;18;20 - 01;00;20;06
Dazié
Does,
01;00;20;09 - 01;00;23;18
Dazié
that if they put if they write the word Suga' in Eventbrite,
01;00;23;21 - 01;00;28;05
Dazié
that it'll come up with the dates and where to get tickets and it’s S-U-G-A with an apostrophe after the A
01;00;28;08 - 01;00;31;16
Dazié
on Eventbrite. And you can find tickets on the 29, 30, 31st.
01;00;31;19 - 01;00;36;27
Dazié
That's another way to to just locate us because I don't think it's like if you went to Eastside, you wouldn't find tickets.
01;00;37;00 - 01;00;38;15
Dazié
You need to go. You need to go to Eventbrite.
01;00;38;16 - 01;00;39;01
Derrick
Yeah.
01;00;39;04 - 01;00;41;18
Dazié
To buy tickets.
01;00;41;21 - 01;00;56;25
Pam
Okay. well super exciting? I will be thinking about some of the things that you both said in this conversation for quite some time, and I'm so excited that you let me know that this was happening.
01;00;56;27 - 01;01;12;01
Pam
As you both know, I thought The Changer and the Changed was one of the most spectacular. And when I say that, I don't mean spectacle, but like impactful, momentous performances I've seen.
01;01;12;01 - 01;01;13;22
Pam
And I loved hearing about your collective.
01;01;13;27 - 01;01;14;27
Dazié
Thank you.
01;01;14;29 - 01;01;28;26
Pam
And thank you both for coming and sharing all of this. It's really it's it's really even this conversation is going to like blow open my mind. So...
01;01;28;26 - 01;01;29;20
Dazié
Thank you for having us back..
01;01;29;22 - 01;01;31;20
Derrick
Yeah. So thank you so much.
01;01;31;22 - 01;01;44;26
Dazié
I, I was listening to the former podcast that we did and I was just like, wow, like just having that exist somewhere and being able to go back to it years later, like that's what I was like, oh my God, we have to do this again. But thank you for having us. And it's been really, really
01;01;44;26 - 01;01;48;11
Dazié
amazing to have done then now and to to be able to look back on.
01;01;48;13 - 01;02;01;09
Pam
Well, you're very welcome. The next one, if I still exist, if this podcast still exists, you're you're formally invited to come back again.
01;02;01;15 - 01;02;05;04
Derrick
Thank you. Thank you so much, Pam.
01;02;05;06 - 01;02;19;11
Pam
You’re listening to Art Heals All Wounds.
01;02;26;26 - 01;02;36;22
Pam
Thank you so much to Dazié Grego-Sykes and Derrick Miller-Handley from Bundle of Sticks Art Collective for coming on the show to talk about their upcoming event. Sugar.
01;02;36;25 - 01;02;43;03
Pam
if you're in the Bay area on May 29th to the 31st, I promise you'll want to see this.
01;02;43;05 - 01;02;47;29
Pam
I'll put all of the info in the show notes so that you can find tickets.
01;02;48;02 - 01;03;07;04
Pam
And thank all of you for listening. I'm not using social media right now, but you can always reach me through my website. arthealsallwoundspodcast.com. I also have a Substack, so if you want to keep up to date on the podcast, you can subscribe there.
01;03;07;07 - 01;03;23;01
Pam
The music you've heard in this podcast is by Ketsa and Lobo Loco.