Coming of Age in the Shadow of Vietnam: A Hidden History Finally Told

 What was it like to grow up American in 1968 Bangkok, living in the shadow of the Vietnam War? In this episode, I sit down with author Daria Sommers to discuss her debut historical fiction novel, Sawadika American Girl — a coming-of-age story set against one of history's most turbulent eras. Daria shares the little known story of the vast American community in Thailand during the Vietnam War, the experience of being a "third culture kid," and how storytelling and art can heal even the deepest historical wounds. A must-listen for fans of historical fiction, Vietnam War history, and the power of narrative to reclaim hidden stories.

• [3:44] Introduction to Sawadika American Girl — historical fiction set in 1968 Bangkok
• [4:36] The American expat community in Thailand during the Vietnam War
• [5:48] Piper's backstory — loss, family tension, and dislocation
• [8:59] The role of friendship and freedom in a coming-of-age story
• [14:56] Music, healing, and the Thai prince who anchored it all
• [17:45] First love during wartime — Jack's story and what they were up against
• [21:34] Daria's own background as a third culture kid in Bangkok
• [23:02] The burden of a childhood you couldn't talk about
• [32:16] Returning home — finding your people after a third culture childhood
• [39:06] From documentary filmmaker to veteran’s advocate — the making of Lioness
• [44:36] Speaking at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial — when hidden stories finally matter
• [50:17] Where to find Sawadika American Girl and follow Daria's work

Daria's website

Transcript

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Pam

Do you believe art can change the world? So do I! On this show, we meet artists whose work is doing just that. Welcome to art heals all wounds. I'm your host, Pam Uzzell.

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Pam

You may have stories from your past that you're ashamed of. I definitely do: things we'd rather not share with other people. But what if it was the whole story of your childhood, your youth that you were ashamed to share? Not because of anything you'd done, but because the circumstances of your youth were associated with a challenging part of history.

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Pam

Today's guest is Daria Sommers. We talked about her new novel, Sawadika American Girl the story of Piper, a teenager in Bangkok during the Vietnam War. Piper's father works for USAID, and Piper is part of the American community in Bangkok. The parents of the families there, fathers mostly, are part of the support staff for the U.S. military campaign in Vietnam.

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Pam

This coming of age story highlights the complexity of being a part of that history, one that marks Piper forever.

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Pam

For Daria, this was a story she needed to share. She also lived in Bangkok with her family during the Vietnam War. Although Sawadika American Girl isn’t biographical, it does include things that Daria experienced, witnessed, or knew about. For Daria and her heroine Piper, returning to the United States as college-aged women was a difficult transition, not least of all because their peers, who were deeply against the war in Vietnam, held them responsible for participating in this unpopular war,

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Pam

even though they were children for a long time, Daria just stopped sharing the story of her childhood, not discussing it with most of those around her.

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Pam

Today's conversation is about how she discovered the importance of sharing her story not just for herself, but to add to the complex history of the Vietnam War. Besides being the author of Sawadika American Girl, Daria is one of the directors of Lioness, a documentary sharing the story of the first women in U.S. history to be sent into combat.

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Pam

She also works with the veteran community through an organization called the Veterans Breakfast Club,

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Pam

where they use storytelling as a means to heal, inspire, and connect.

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Pam

You want to know how you can really help me keep this show going? Follow me on your favorite listening app. So easy. Right? And if you really want to give the show a boost, leave me a five star rating or review.

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Pam

Hi Daria. Thank you so much for being on Art Heals All Wounds today.

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Daria

Thank you Pam, it's a pleasure to be here.

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Pam

So you wrote this beautiful novel called Sawadika American Girl. Am I pronouncing the Thai word correctly?

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Daria

It's actually sawadiKA

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Pam

American Girl.

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Pam

Well,

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Pam

we have a lot to talk about this novel, but can you just start by giving us an overview of this book? What? What is this book about?

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Daria

Well, it's,

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Daria

historical fiction, and it takes place in 1968, in Bangkok, Thailand. And at that time, basically 1968. The world is on fire there.

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Daria

The Vietnam War is at its height.

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Daria

There are protests all over the globe. The old order seems to be breaking down.

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Daria

that's the context and

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Daria

17 year old Piper Lewis, who's who's there with her family. Her father works for USAID.

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Daria

that is a program that they had which was in support of the Vietnam War. They were fighting off,

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Daria

the Communist intrusion,

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Daria

in the upper regions of Thailand and, and working on aid projects to convince

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Daria

the villagers to not go over to the communists.

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Daria

And

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Daria

there was a huge American colony there in support of that. Most people don't understand

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Daria

that there was not just the war in Vietnam. There was a huge

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Daria

American presence in Thailand. And so that's where Piper is at 17 years old, finishing her junior year. And,

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Daria

and she meets a,

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Daria

GI on R&R,

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Daria

somewhat disillusioned.

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Daria

And,

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Daria

they begin a,

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Daria

a friendship, a relationship that, in the end, turns her world upside down.

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Pam

Well, let's go back to Piper for a little bit. Okay.

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Pam

Piper,

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Pam

what is the backstory? Can you share the backstory of Piper's family? Who's in the family? And then what is. There's like a huge, enormous,

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Pam

event that occurs before the novel. The story in the novel happens. So can you share that a little bit?

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Daria

Yes.

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Daria

Piper, loses her mother to cancer when she's about nine years old. And so,

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Daria

they were a trio. Piper, her father and her mother. And,

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Daria

And yet, two years later or so, her father remarries.

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Daria

And shortly after that, they moved to Thailand. So they actually moved to Thailand right at the very beginning of usaid, putting money and sending people to Thailand.

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Daria

As the idea of Americans moving into that area of Southeast Asia was ramping up.

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Daria

And so Piper goes over with a kind of a stepmother who she still trying to reconcile having and a father who she's been very close to. But given the circumstances of where they end up over there, her relationship with her father is going to change drastically.

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Pam

Right. Right. And it seems like, or at least for me. And you can correct me if this was not your intention, that there's a, that there's a tension in the book around who's going to be the most important woman in Piper's father's life. For Piper, and that there is this sense in her mind the stepmother does not belong there, not a trio.

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Pam

And.

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Pam

There are interesting ways that this tension plays out between Piper and her and her father.

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Daria

Right.

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Daria

And I think what I what I'm setting up there again without giving too much away, is that and I think this is something that really kids do very well. They may not be able to articulate it, but they sense when something's off.

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Daria

and Piper does sense this, that this is something's not right in this setup.

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Daria

And so when she goes over to Thailand, she's already going over with a kind of a sense of dislocation, because that idea of dislocation,

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Daria

is really sort of an overarching,

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Daria

sort of permeates the atmosphere of the novel. I think.

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Pam

Right. And.

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Pam

What's interesting about, I mean, whatever, whatever ideas we might have now about going over to Thailand, there's definitely a lot of restriction placed on Piper and expectations to conform that are both from her stepmother, but then also the society, the American society there in general. Can you talk a little bit about these and how, you know, Piper,

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Pam

finds this very important friend, Krissy

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Pam

How does this all play out? What's Krissy's role in Piper's development in this story?

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Daria

Well,

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Daria

what I was trying to express was, as many American families. And there were thousands of them that went over to Bangkok.

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Daria

To live. And that where their fathers were either military, U.S. embassy, USA, U.S. mission, private contractors, they they all came over and they brought the sensibility at that time. So if you count the early 60s where many of the like the conformity from the 1950s was still at play, you know, that was the parental reference point for many, although things were maybe just starting to change.

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Daria

But so they went over there. And certainly Piper's stepmother is is part of that.

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Daria

And then you get over to Bangkok and as things develop, by the time we get to 68, which is where the bulk of the novel takes place in that time period,

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Daria

things have really ramped up. And so there's this tension where American kids have to behave so that they don't violate the norms that are necessary for Thai American relations, because there's a lot there's there's some conflict, you know, between the sensibilities between the two cultures and you know, it.

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Daria

I'd say that not everyone was prepared for that experience or or didn't alter their behavior.

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Daria

and Piper is very aware of that now. She she is a more sensitive to it than a lot of people.

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Daria

so it's almost like it's a double whammy of, of,

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Daria

kind of,

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Daria

rules of engagement for these kids.

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Daria

And that was an absolutely a true thing.

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Daria

so into this,

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Daria

Piper at seventeen, she's really a little younger when she meets Krissy at 16. But Krissy is her friend who's had an even wilder lifestyle because her parents,

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Daria

were working. And there's, you know, I leave it a little loose, but they working for the,

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Daria

U.S. embassy in Laos, and that's where she'd grown up.

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Daria

And they'd been there for a while. They're kind of contractors.

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Daria

And so they send them to, Krissy and her brother to live at a hotel in Bangkok so they can go to the American school so they can graduate from high school, which, when you think about it right now, who would do that? Like that makes no sense.

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Daria

And yet. Right. That was a thing that happened. And so she just was is this free spirit. And in that sense, she's emblematic of like, what the 60s really were over there, because we always think of the 60s is just like this. What the counterculture that happened in the Unites in San Francisco and the protests in New York and all that there were the 60s existed in Thailand, the 60s existed a little bit in Laos, too. people don't really understand that in the same way.

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Daria

But it's true. And that's what Krissy represents. Like Piper, free yourself.

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Pam

Right. It's so interesting, too. And I also don't want to give away too much in the book, but it feels like both Krissy is someone that Piper really needs in a certain sense in order for her to.

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Pam

Try and find herself outside of these, you know, restrictions that are placed on her. There. But.

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Pam

I really don't want to give away too much in the book there. There is a tragedy associated with Krissy.

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Pam

What?

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Pam

You know.

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Daria

I think I think what you're getting at. If I could jump in here is that,

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Daria

you know, Krissy, as free as she is,

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Daria

There's the sense there that she's just gone too far, and and and I think that extreme, you know, it's 1968, and so it's 1968 Bangkok, just like it was 1968. And San Francisco or 1968, you know, in New York.

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Daria

There were people who took that freedom and just went to the edge.

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Pam

Right, right. And I think what you're saying about.

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Pam

You know, when I read Piper, there's this desire to be free. But there also is very much this structure in her mind that gives her a really better balanced sense of judgment, maybe about safety. And what are the risks that you can take? What are the ones that maybe you shouldn't there? Maybe Krissy is missing because she does not have that same sort of structure with her parents and things.

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Pam

Do you know what I'm saying about that?

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Daria

Absolutely. And I think I've tried to represent that aspect of Piper, you know, so that we understand it because Piper's that's Piper's relationship with her music and her studies with the Prince that really anchors her. That gives her a grounding and in, in a way,

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Daria

the Thai prince who she studies piano with is.

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Daria

You know, he knows what's going on, and he never says it, but he knows what's going on.

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Pam

Well, let's talk about Piper's music, the piano. She's something of a prodigy, and she is studying with this very prestigious music teacher who happens to be a Thai prince. Why was this element of Piper's life so crucial to this story for you?

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Daria

Well, because I think it,

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Daria

I think it it it's the seed that was planted and connects her to her mother. So it's a normal and it's a normal inclination that she would have.

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Daria

And also I really wanted to represent because what this is one of the beautiful things, I mean, as is as challenging and in many ways difficult as, as growing up in that place during that time was

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Daria

there were also a lot of beautiful things.

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Daria

in Thailand. There was actually, you know, it it's it's counterintuitive, but there was a great,

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Daria

musical culture, a world music culture. But there was also classical music.

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Daria

All the great pianists, many of them stopped. That was a Bangkok, was a stop on their world tours.

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Daria

And the king at the time, King Bhumibol Adulyadej, he had he was a great jazz musician and he studied jazz and he composed he has a great song called

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Daria

Love at Sundown.

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Daria

And he met the queen, Queen Sirikit,

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Daria

when she was studying classical piano in Paris.

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Daria

and Ravi Shankar used to come through and concerts playing the sitar and everything was very accessible.

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Daria

And the Thai prince who studied with Claudio Arrau was a true character.

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Daria

I didn't pull them out of thin air.

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Daria

That was that was a true character.

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Daria

the fact that Piper studied with him, I think it represented this kind of beautiful,

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Daria

connection between these cultures in this place where there was where the atmosphere was full of kind of crude or,

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Daria

you know, like, not the best aspects of humanity. Whereas Piper's relationship with the Prince was all through music and and you know, what's it's so it's so centering and that's what that's what he really represents.

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Pam

Right. And it also becomes really I do think it's really an anchoring point for her when other things go awry and she needs something to make her still care. I think that this is a beautiful thing in her character is this music and how important it is to her.

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Pam

So let's talk about Piper's love interest, Jack. It's so interesting, but perfect that you put her first love within this context of so much tension.

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Pam

So can you talk a little bit about who Jack is and what Piper and Jack are up against? If they want to pursue the feelings they have for each other.

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Daria

It. Well, Jack is just,

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Daria

representative of, you know, someone, a young man who was drafted. He didn't come from a wealthy background. He came, really a single mom and a couple of sisters in Wisconsin. And,

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Daria

And so he comes to Bangkok on R&R, and, as you know, the bulk of the book

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Daria

takes place over the course of a week, like five, six days or so, which is the, you know, conforms to the length of R&R in Thailand.

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Daria

And the idea is that,

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Daria

Obviously Jack's, you know, been in combat and this is his relief.

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Daria

and there's, you know, that terrible experience of that. And he's coming for, you know, just with his head spinning, trying to get some relief. And he has his time in Bangkok.

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Daria

And they're close in age. He just turned 19 and she's soon going to turn 18. So they're really just two teenagers. They're both kind of dislocated,

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Daria

in time. And and they have a sense of why am I here? What how does this make sense? So it's not just that they have to make sense of their lives at that point, which you would normally, if you were back home going through your normal routines of graduating and what job are you going to get or what college are you going to go to?

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Daria

They are trying to figure this out. Amidst the layers of war and,

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Daria

the atmosphere of war and political tensions and cross-cultural, you know, confusion and accommodation and reconciling all of that within themselves.

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Daria

but they somehow they find each other and they end up being a kind of refuge for each other.

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Daria

And I will say that even though it's short,

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Daria

it there's an in and part of the reason for doing that,

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Daria

is that.

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Daria

That was a very intense time. And that's what it felt like. That was the texture of that time. And maybe that was the texture of the time here in 1968. I don't know, I was just a kid. But, Piper is not me. I was younger than Piper, but,

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Daria

but but that was the texture in Bangkok. And there was also, as wonderful as it was in many ways, there was always a sense of danger lurking there.

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Daria

they're they're coming from the different vantage points, but organically from the same kind of place. So there's a comfort level there that they have with each other, and they find a kind of refuge right?

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Pam

But they're very much not what either.

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Speaker 1

The US military or the American Society in Bangkok would consider to be suitable.

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Pam

partners for each other.

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Pam

No.

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Daria

They're breaking all kinds of rules. But that's that's what happened.

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Pam

Right? Right. So.

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Pam

There's a lot more we could say about this book, but I think we'll give away too much of the plot. What I want to talk about is that, You know, you've been saying things like, that's the way it was and all this stuff. Can you talk a little bit about your background that informed this book? This is very much not an autobiographical story, but you definitely know the situation very well.

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Pam

What is your background?

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Daria

Well, in I will say that the book is fiction

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Daria

but everything that happened in the book is kind of those are things that happened. I just knit them together in a way that made a good story and some of the things happened to me in the sense that I studied piano with a Thai prince who studied with Claudio Arrau, where other things happened to kids I knew mostly were friends of my older siblings that I knew,

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Daria

and things that I saw unfold and certainly things that I understood about my father and his work and other families who were there.

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Daria

So in that sense, it's it's fiction, but it's kind of based on things that happen. But just not all to me.

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Daria

But, you know, I will say that it was, you know, it was it was, I think part of the my desire to, to write this novel was the fact that, you know, it took me a long time because when, you know, when I first came back and I know this is true for other kids who lived over there during this time, it was hard to talk about because nobody really wanted to hear about it or just seemed unimportant or nobody cared, or you were criticized because, wow, you were living over in Bangkok.

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Daria

You were living this because when Americans went over there, for the most part, they lived. And we lived in these fabulous houses. You know, we had maids, we had a driver. We belong to the Royal Bangkok Sports Club. There was so much that was so fantastic. You had dressmakers to make your clothes. I mean, it just it just went on and on and on.

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Daria

And you could travel around and and

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Daria

And yet what was that in support of that was in support of the Vietnam War.

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Pam

Right.

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Daria

And you can't see it at the time as a child growing up there. But you come back and people were like, okay, you know, you're your father was, you know, one of the fat cats, you were making money while, you know, we were murdering people in Vietnam. I mean, that's what you heard. And so, you know, there was always a part of me that suppressed that.

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Daria

I mean, there were many years when I would just never really tell people that was my background. And, you know, that's a hard thing when you have a childhood that you can't talk about, right?

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Daria

And then the other thing I learned was that.

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Daria

because I do I, I am the editor now of a magazine called the Veterans Breakfast Club Magazine, and we tell stories by veterans,

00;24;21;17 - 00;24;24;07

Daria

and many of them are from Viet Nam

00;24;24;07 - 00;24;31;26

Daria

And, and because we believe that storytelling is healing and it connects us and we have to understand these things,

00;24;31;29 - 00;24;32;25

Daria

and,

00;24;32;28 - 00;24;37;16

Daria

I learned that, you know, most of the narratives

00;24;37;18 - 00;24;40;23

Daria

about war, come from men.

00;24;40;25 - 00;24;43;03

Daria

And,

00;24;43;06 - 00;24;53;24

Daria

whether I liked it or not, and in many ways, I might have preferred to have a childhood that I could have just grown up here without that kind of burden.

00;24;53;27 - 00;25;00;23

Daria

You know, I, I did come to say, well, this was my experience, and it was part of the war. I didn't ask for it.

00;25;00;26 - 00;25;01;19

Pam

Right.

00;25;01;22 - 00;25;19;12

Daria

I went over there because my parents, we got on a plane and went over there. And this is where you're going to live. And I just like, you know, people should know about it. It counts the perspective of a 17 year old girl, which is Piper in the story. It counts. It matters. And so

00;25;19;12 - 00;25;23;01

Daria

I was just finishing the book when, like, Alice McDermott's,

00;25;23;05 - 00;25;25;10

Daria

novel came out, Absolution.

00;25;25;13 - 00;25;31;17

Daria

And I had, you know, I was in the process of of getting a publisher when,

00;25;31;17 - 00;25;46;20

Daria

Kristen Hannah's book, The Women came out and those were all stories. And also previous to that, you know, I had read Le Ly Hayslip who was, actually she started out kind of working with the North Vietnamese, but,

00;25;46;23 - 00;25;48;15

Daria

and then became a refugee.

00;25;48;15 - 00;25;55;25

Daria

Her book, you know, Child of War, Woman of Peace came out. And so you know, I feel like

00;25;55;25 - 00;26;11;14

Daria

the narratives of war tend to the, the sort of the reflex is to have it be, you know, about machinery or men and you know, or, you know, guns and power and might and, and the tools of war

00;26;11;16 - 00;26;14;17

Daria

but the effect is always wider.

00;26;14;19 - 00;26;28;10

Daria

Right. And the legacy is long. And I thought, well, I'm going to tell that story because there was just a point where I reached like, people need to hear it. It counts. It matters.

00;26;28;13 - 00;26;29;17

Pam

Right?

00;26;29;20 - 00;26;46;26

Pam

Right. And again, without giving away too much of the book, it is a bit like a house of cards that comes tumbling down for Piper's family, for sure.

00;26;46;28 - 00;26;50;23

Daria

I think, I think if I could just interject here that,

00;26;50;25 - 00;26;53;05

Daria

because one of the things that I did try to do,

00;26;53;07 - 00;27;06;17

Daria

and some people have picked up on in the novel, is that the music really threads through Piper's journey, and it kind of marks her growth. And,

00;27;06;19 - 00;27;15;14

Daria

and it's not and, and so to me, there's a, you know, it gets her to a good place in the end.

00;27;15;17 - 00;27;56;13

Pam

Right? Although it is interesting, she has a goal with her music at the beginning that in the end she decides not to pursue. In terms of her studies. I'm so curious about that decision. Is this her desire to sort of be more like a quote unquote regular person? Why? Why does she not like this sort of holdout held out as like this big prize for her with her music that could be available to her, and in the end, she doesn't take it?

00;27;56;15 - 00;27;59;23

Pam

Why do you think that was her choice?

00;27;59;25 - 00;28;01;11

Pam

Well.

00;28;01;13 - 00;28;02;10

Daria

I think that,

00;28;02;13 - 00;28;13;06

Daria

again, I don't want to get into too much about it, but I think that what what the music and Piper's relationship with the prince

00;28;13;06 - 00;28;15;13

Daria

really symbolizes.

00;28;15;16 - 00;28;29;00

Daria

And what the narrative is about, it is really about her growth. I mean, I think that it's also everyone who loves music and who plays music doesn't have to be.

00;28;29;00 - 00;28;36;05

Daria

Or if it's the piano, you don't have to be a concert pianist. You can have music in your life. Not everything has to be geared towards that.

00;28;36;08 - 00;28;38;25

Daria

And you know, it's a lot of pressure,

00;28;38;28 - 00;28;56;00

Daria

But I think if Piper Piper's relationship with the prince was through the music and he was so important to her and and to holding, I mean, I think he literally holds her together, even though all they really do is talk about music.

00;28;56;03 - 00;28;59;10

Daria

But they talk about it through the technique that

00;28;59;12 - 00;29;15;06

Daria

Claudio Arrau used, which was a very centering technique. So you could understand the emotion in the music. And that's really what their conversations are about. And that's really a mask. Right. That's a, a

00;29;15;06 - 00;29;24;15

Daria

the means of getting at these deeper issues for Piper and her, holding on emotionally.

00;29;24;18 - 00;29;33;09

Pam

Right. So what you're saying is that because it is true that that is something that.

00;29;33;11 - 00;29;46;20

Pam

Is is centered in her lessons with the prince? Is this emotional, this emotional component of the music?

00;29;46;22 - 00;29;50;14

Pam

So I'm wondering.

00;29;50;16 - 00;30;06;16

Pam

If what you're saying is that in the end, that that was the importance of the piano for her, not necessarily making a career of it, but actually being able to express certain emotions.

00;30;06;18 - 00;30;35;28

Daria

Right? I mean, and she has I just to be clear, she has not given up music entirely. She's just pursuing it. And I think also what I was trying to frame there was this idea that, coming from that time period, from living there and processing that. It's on the one hand, it's completely different from if you were over there as a,

00;30;36;01 - 00;30;44;02

Daria

service member, you and you served and that's it's I'm not equating it with that at all, but it is like a distant cousin.

00;30;44;04 - 00;31;09;28

Daria

So you had to come back and you had to process. So it's not you weren't prepped to just kind of go on into a career with your life. That wasn't how I mean, I can't speak for everyone. There were lots of kids over there, and people stay different lengths of time. Our family stayed a long time. Some families stayed for two years.

00;31;10;00 - 00;31;14;01

Daria

So there's a variety of experience and I can't speak.

00;31;14;04 - 00;31;18;25

Daria

And this story certainly only represents one aspect of that. But,

00;31;18;28 - 00;31;23;21

Daria

you know, Piper, Piper spent, you know, her formative years there and,

00;31;23;21 - 00;31;31;10

Daria

you know, and then you come back to a completely different culture in, in the midst of this sort of aftermath of this,

00;31;31;12 - 00;31;35;22

Daria

military, you know, horror,

00;31;35;25 - 00;31;41;22

Daria

and, you know, even even Piper had to recover.

00;31;41;25 - 00;31;57;02

Daria

I think we had it right. And I wanted to give her some grace also, she just went on and had a fabulous, concert career. Like that since, like, two. Easy. That's not how life is.

00;31;57;05 - 00;32;10;13

Pam

Right? Right. well, I'm so curious. I know we're talking about the book, but I. I'm really curious about your experiences as well.

00;32;10;16 - 00;32;12;28

Pam

I think somewhere in,

00;32;12;28 - 00;32;17;25

Pam

reading information about the book, there's this reference to this term third culture.

00;32;17;27 - 00;32;20;15

Daria

Right? Third culture, kid.

00;32;20;17 - 00;32;27;28

Pam

Third culture kid. Can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah, I've heard the term before, but what is the Third Culture kid?

00;32;28;01 - 00;32;30;17

Daria

Well, in the book I have,

00;32;30;20 - 00;32;32;02

Daria

I use one of the,

00;32;32;06 - 00;32;44;02

Daria

a quote, from the, I guess, social scientists, anthropologists who concocted the term. But it was and that was in the 50s. It was for,

00;32;44;05 - 00;33;03;13

Daria

children who grow up and have their formative years in a culture that is not the one their parents have. And and that also because I wanted to frame the perspective of the book because it's really through Piper.

00;33;03;16 - 00;33;23;28

Daria

I'm not writing about, you know, Thai culture from the perspective of Thai people. I couldn't do that. That's not my place. I could not. But from a third culture kid, I could say, what did it look and feel like at that time? And especially what did this sort of little America that I grew up there look and feel like?

00;33;24;00 - 00;33;28;22

Daria

And, and I think, you know, it's originally,

00;33;28;25 - 00;33;44;12

Daria

given to, like, missionary kids, you know, were sometimes like American corporations sending what it was Coca-Cola or whatever, you know, going going overseas for two years to get your Coca-Cola plants set up in this or that country.

00;33;44;15 - 00;33;55;12

Daria

But, you know, I think I put that there because it was doubly hard, you know, because it was in the shadow of this really on the edge of this war, this tragic military,

00;33;55;15 - 00;33;57;28

Daria

engagement and,

00;33;58;01 - 00;34;12;24

Daria

just to remember that at that time, there's no internet like phone calls back to the states were so rare, you know, mail was slow.

00;34;12;26 - 00;34;28;29

Daria

It meant, you know, you'd get your 17 magazine, like, three months later. And they did have an American library there was a under the this called the Just Mag Library. So it was under like a military,

00;34;29;02 - 00;34;29;24

Daria

set up,

00;34;29;27 - 00;34;31;14

Daria

and

00;34;31;16 - 00;34;32;03

Daria

Thai.

00;34;32;03 - 00;34;33;06

Daria

Television,

00;34;33;09 - 00;34;38;28

Daria

really had only a few American programs on. We didn't get many of them. And it was,

00;34;38;28 - 00;34;40;11

Daria

programs like,

00;34;40;14 - 00;34;43;23

Daria

F troop and the Saint and,

00;34;43;26 - 00;34;56;21

Daria

like the Rat Patrol. And you would have to if you want. They were all dubbed in Thai, and so if you wanted to, you would have to turn on the radio and you could tune in and sometimes get the English soundtrack.

00;34;56;29 - 00;35;20;16

Daria

And that's how you watch programs. That's all we got. We didn't see the Beatles, we didn't see the Rolling Stones. So you it was such a different world and it felt so far away. You felt very far away. And I think to understand Piper story, you have to understand that. And I do make those points that if you wanted to order something.

00;35;20;16 - 00;35;47;23

Daria

So it was very difficult. Her music was very precious to her because if she if she lost her Beethoven's sonatas, for instance, you couldn't just walk down someplace and buy them. You had to order them and maybe they would come in a month. Maybe they would come in six months. You didn't know. So it was like a different there was an abundance, but there was also a scarcity as well.

00;35;47;26 - 00;35;55;05

Pam

Right? Yeah. It's so interesting. I just think about.

00;35;55;08 - 00;36;15;03

Pam

Both you and Piper coming back and finding your people. How how do you do that? You're not Thai. You definitely don't feel American. How do you find your people in that situation?

00;36;15;06 - 00;36;15;17

Daria

Well,

00;36;15;24 - 00;36;17;20

Daria

it was hard.

00;36;17;22 - 00;36;20;28

Daria

It. And I went,

00;36;21;01 - 00;36;43;27

Daria

I went to Oberlin College in Ohio, in part for the conservatory, which I quickly dropped out of, because in a way, it just felt I will say that for me personally, it's compared to the music atmosphere I was in in Thailand, in Bangkok, it felt soulless.

00;36;44;00 - 00;36;45;09

Pam

Wow.

00;36;45;11 - 00;37;07;07

Daria

Now it's a wonderful conservatory and fabulous musicians graduate from it. But I can only tell you that that was my reference point. It was all white walls and all, and it was just completely. But you know who could replace the Prince? But so and I, I, I dropped out,

00;37;07;10 - 00;37;29;10

Daria

and, and I was at the college, but it was a challenge because there were, for me, I was there were certain norms of behavior and things that I just and I was always getting my bearings and I, you know, there were a lot of things that were common cultural references that kids had because they all watched the same morning cartoons or programs and

00;37;29;10 - 00;37;37;28

Daria

whatnot. And, you know, by that time I, I hadn't I wasn't familiar with them. And so,

00;37;38;00 - 00;37;55;02

Daria

you know, I just think it just, I just watched I was very, you know, on I was an observer for a long time then and kept a lot to myself, which makes sense for why did I go into documentary filmmaking originally?

00;37;55;02 - 00;38;04;24

Daria

Because, you know, that's the best place to be if you want to be an observer. And it's not about you, right?

00;38;04;27 - 00;38;08;07

Pam

Right. That's fascinating. Well.

00;38;08;07 - 00;38;14;13

Pam

You've talked about that. You did realize the importance of sharing a story.

00;38;14;13 - 00;38;31;00

Pam

I'm also curious to know, obviously, things were shifting for you. Did you find that as time went on, the people around you were shifting and becoming more curious and more open to hearing the perspective that you had?

00;38;31;02 - 00;38;35;22

Daria

I will say that the point at which I,

00;38;35;22 - 00;38;58;23

Daria

I really felt comfortable was, and this is very strange, because I became a filmmaker. I was in New York making documentary films, making art films, working, making profiles of artists, experimental films. And then,

00;38;58;26 - 00;39;01;02

Daria

there was 911.

00;39;01;05 - 00;39;03;20

Daria

And then I was with my father,

00;39;03;23 - 00;39;06;02

Daria

when the night that,

00;39;06;02 - 00;39;11;18

Daria

you know, we the day we, they invaded Iraq.

00;39;11;20 - 00;39;13;21

Daria

Well, first Afghanistan, but then

00;39;13;23 - 00;39;28;15

Daria

when they invaded Iraq and at that point we were like, don't do it. Like we felt both felt like, well, we lived through Vietnam. Don't do it. Don't do it. This will not end well. This will this is a mistake.

00;39;28;17 - 00;39;39;17

Daria

and there was something about that that I had had no interest in writing or thinking or making a film about the military or anything like that.

00;39;39;19 - 00;39;42;06

Daria

But that happened, and I had been,

00;39;42;06 - 00;39;45;23

Daria

in downtown, during 911,

00;39;45;26 - 00;39;49;22

Daria

up a little further north from the World Trade Center towers. But,

00;39;49;27 - 00;39;57;16

Daria

you know, just something shifted. And and within a year or so, I had this idea with a colleague to,

00;39;57;19 - 00;40;06;09

Daria

to we wanted to make a film about, like, the women, because we noticed that a lot of women were being shipped off to war, and we were like, well, what is that like?

00;40;06;11 - 00;40;09;28

Daria

And and what does that even mean? What are they doing?

00;40;10;01 - 00;40;15;22

Daria

Not in a, not in a explain yourself way, but just in what is that experience like.

00;40;15;25 - 00;40;18;04

Pam

So I.

00;40;18;07 - 00;40;22;07

Daria

Fast forward, we made this film called Lioness about female,

00;40;22;07 - 00;40;33;16

Daria

soldiers who were who because no one had planned for that. They were going to be working with Iraqi women and children, and there were cultural taboos on men interacting with them.

00;40;33;19 - 00;40;39;07

Daria

They drew in these women. And so the women had a very interesting relationship with the Iraqi women and children.

00;40;39;07 - 00;40;51;08

Daria

And, and so that that fascinated us. So we made this film that came out in 2008. And at the time, some of these women and others were starting to come home and they'd been pulled into,

00;40;51;11 - 00;40;52;12

Daria

combat.

00;40;52;15 - 00;40;56;09

Daria

They've been borrowed for these programs, and, but they weren't always,

00;40;56;11 - 00;40;57;28

Daria

given the same,

00;40;58;01 - 00;41;04;10

Daria

help from the VA. They weren't recognized in the same way that many of their, of the men were who had been in combat.

00;41;04;17 - 00;41;11;23

Daria

So in the process of trying to use the film to, to help get them

00;41;11;23 - 00;41;14;05

Daria

the health care that they needed,

00;41;14;08 - 00;41;25;23

Daria

we started to meet with a lot of women who had worked as nurses in Vietnam, and they had helped because when they came back, they didn't even know they were veterans.

00;41;25;26 - 00;41;39;18

Daria

They had they didn't like Joan Furey, who was one of them. She didn't even at first. She didn't even understand that she could be a veteran, even though she had spent a year in a in a hospital trying to stitch people back together.

00;41;39;20 - 00;41;40;27

Daria

she was one of the founders of the

00;41;40;27 - 00;41;42;22

Daria

Women's Center at the VA.

00;41;42;25 - 00;41;55;00

Daria

so we worked with them and I got to know some of the nurses and somehow talking to them because they'd been this is way before Kristin Hannah wrote her book, The Women. We were still working in the shadows.

00;41;55;03 - 00;42;04;19

Daria

They just I could talk to them. It was like we were all outsiders, but, you know, and and they they they were very comfortable hearing my story.

00;42;04;21 - 00;42;15;03

Daria

And they made me feel in many ways, like, you know, they they just kind of took me in and, and I felt, okay, this is a space where suddenly this all makes sense to them.

00;42;15;07 - 00;42;23;29

Daria

I had always felt like my childhood had been contraband, something I had to keep hidden. And and they made me feel like.

00;42;23;29 - 00;42;29;16

Daria

No. And I had done a lot of work and and we ended up,

00;42;29;16 - 00;42;30;04

Daria

getting,

00;42;30;04 - 00;42;30;24

Daria

Obama

00;42;31;00 - 00;42;38;06

Daria

working with many of these wonderful nurses who really paved the way to make some fundamental changes.

00;42;38;09 - 00;42;46;24

Daria

they didn't solve every problem, but some fundamental changes for women veterans who were returning from Iraq and Afghanistan in terms of health care.

00;42;46;27 - 00;42;47;14

Daria

Obama,

00;42;47;16 - 00;43;03;23

Daria

signed the women Veterans Health Care Act into law, in part because the film, the women in our film who had talked about what it was like coming back home and, and how they weren't getting the services they needed, but the connectors for all of that were these nurses who had served in Vietnam, and they'd

00;43;03;23 - 00;43;07;18

Daria

been Army nurses for the most part, and others.

00;43;07;20 - 00;43;09;26

Daria

and then in 2015,

00;43;09;26 - 00;43;22;29

Daria

I was asked by Diane Carlson Evans, who was the founder of the Vietnam Women Veterans Memorial. That is it's a statue that's near the wall.

00;43;23;02 - 00;43;25;19

Daria

She asked me to speak

00;43;25;22 - 00;43;35;11

Daria

at the Wall on Veterans Day in 2015. And of course, I was like, why would you want me? And she was like, no, we want you.

00;43;35;15 - 00;44;09;24

Daria

You've done this work for this new generation of women veterans, and you also had this experience with Vietnam as well. And you understand both. It's kind of the sense that, like them, I had kind of I was also a bridge, but from a different, you know, a different vantage point. But as a storyteller now. Right. And, and so I went and I mean, like that was just an incredible experience.

00;44;09;26 - 00;44;25;06

Daria

And the, you know, I was like, are you sure you want me? Are you sure? And then I was like, okay, because I'm like, if you I'm not going to say no. And so I went did that. And that was in 2015. And it just like blew my mind to be able to do that.

00;44;25;08 - 00;44;27;14

Daria

you know, I just felt like.

00;44;27;17 - 00;44;31;00

Daria

The story I had experienced mattered.

00;44;31;03 - 00;44;32;20

Pam

Right?

00;44;32;23 - 00;44;42;07

Daria

And that's why stories are healing, right. And that's why Piper's story matters.

00;44;42;10 - 00;44;44;18

Pam

Right. I'm just thinking.

00;44;44;20 - 00;45;20;28

Pam

When you are here from the vantage point of where you are, that you couldn't have done these things without having gone through that, coming back feeling a bit like an outsider there, coming back here feeling like an outsider, first of all, feeling like an outsider. Feeling like an outsider can give you tremendous empathy, and that helps you really get the the stories of other people.

00;45;21;00 - 00;45;29;14

Pam

And also that you could become this bridge. I mean, earlier when you talked about that, you were editing this,

00;45;29;16 - 00;45;31;16

Pam

what is the name of the magazine Veterans Stories.

00;45;31;21 - 00;45;33;16

Daria

Veterans Breakfast Club magazine.

00;45;33;17 - 00;45;35;24

Pam

Veterans Breakfast Club? I love that, but,

00;45;35;27 - 00;45;43;15

Pam

You know, I'm just thinking, how could you have done that if you hadn't had this experience?

00;45;43;17 - 00;45;59;18

Daria

I couldn't, I couldn't, and I wouldn't have been interested, probably in making Lioness if I hadn't had this reference point. For what? Because I think one thing I didn't mention, and that it's not really I didn't put it in the book with Piper, but.

00;45;59;18 - 00;46;01;06

Daria

In the 70s,

00;46;01;09 - 00;46;26;04

Daria

after my father did a number of tours, he did all his time in Bangkok in the 70s. He did two tours in Vietnam. He lived in Saigon, and we were in Bangkok for most of it. And he would come home once a month. But on safe weekends, they would let us fly over. And so a couple of times I flew over and my mother was just like, here you go.

00;46;26;11 - 00;46;53;11

Daria

And you'd get on Air Vietnam, and you fly from Bangkok to, Saigon and Tan Son Nhut Air Base. And, you know, it was all wires and men with guns and just, you know, high, high alert. And there would be my father. Hey, come on, let's go. And he was a bit of a cowboy, and he we would just drive out beyond, Saigon.

00;46;53;11 - 00;47;05;27

Daria

And he wanted to show me a ceramics factory. He wanted to show me, you know, where. You know, it was like an old. It was an actually an old church where they some there was a pianist who came to play,

00;47;06;00 - 00;47;17;25

Daria

who he played Liszt And when the bombs were falling, he played Liszt even louder. Like, these are these little stories that were are all there.

00;47;17;26 - 00;47;19;03

Daria

And,

00;47;19;06 - 00;47;36;16

Daria

I think I wrote about in an essay where, you know, we, we came in on the aftermath of something that was unpleasant and they were still, you know, there are probably some people lying there who weren't for, weren't alive. And so we came in some of that. But,

00;47;36;19 - 00;47;41;29

Daria

I personally had experience like even beyond Thailand into that.

00;47;42;00 - 00;47;43;13

Daria

So I guess that's why

00;47;43;13 - 00;47;48;17

Daria

for my father and I when the, when we were together and the whole thing was unfolding with the,

00;47;48;17 - 00;47;51;07

Daria

invasion of Iraq, we were just like,

00;47;51;10 - 00;47;53;20

Daria

I had a deep inside of me.

00;47;53;20 - 00;48;03;01

Daria

There was something that was like, no, I have to find out what's going on right.

00;48;03;04 - 00;48;14;01

Pam

Well, that perspective is very important right now as we speak. So I'm glad that you're talking about

00;48;14;01 - 00;48;19;12

Pam

how your perspective was shaped. I also think, you know, you talk about these experiences,

00;48;19;12 - 00;48;36;20

Pam

going to visit your father in Vietnam. And what's really amazing to me is kind of this way that you've expanded that slice of perspective. Do you know what I mean?

00;48;36;22 - 00;48;39;21

Daria

No, I know what you mean. Because,

00;48;39;24 - 00;48;43;25

Daria

I'm like, I could never have predicted that this is where it would,

00;48;43;28 - 00;48;45;12

Daria

lead me.

00;48;45;15 - 00;48;58;21

Daria

But. I mean, it has organically expanded, like, sometimes now I look at it all and I'm like, well, you know, like you you think sometimes, like you're living your life and you're like, wow, none of this makes sense.

00;48;58;21 - 00;49;09;17

Daria

How does how does this even I'm doing this? And then I'm doing that, like, you know, you're like trying to because when you're looking right at it and it's unfolding before you, you have a plan. You want it all to make sense.

00;49;09;20 - 00;49;11;06

Daria

But, but and

00;49;11;06 - 00;49;24;25

Daria

nothing I had really ever made that much sense. But now when I look back, I'm like, oh, I there's there's something that does make sense about it in terms of like the work and how I.

00;49;24;28 - 00;49;25;26

Pam

Right

00;49;25;29 - 00;49;29;08

Daria

It and where I've landed.

00;49;29;11 - 00;49;35;17

Pam

Right, right. Well, it's been such a pleasure talking to you.

00;49;35;17 - 00;49;40;25

Pam

I thoroughly enjoyed reading Sawadika American Girl.

00;49;40;25 - 00;50;03;26

Pam

I mean, I'm a sucker for a coming of age story anyway, but within this context, it really was something that I knew nothing about. And then hearing how your life and your experience has has really affected the work that you've done is really very, very inspiring and rewarding

00;50;03;29 - 00;50;12;01

Pam

to see a path like that. So I'm hoping you can tell people where they can find your book.

00;50;12;04 - 00;50;12;16

Daria

Well,

00;50;12;20 - 00;50;18;10

Daria

for anyone who wants to buy Sawadika American Girl, it's available at,

00;50;18;12 - 00;50;21;00

Daria

You can go on bookshop.org

00;50;21;03 - 00;50;25;03

Daria

It's available at Barnes and Noble. It's available at Vine Leaves Press,

00;50;25;06 - 00;50;30;17

Daria

website, which is the publisher. And I guess I just have to add that it's also available on Amazon.

00;50;30;23 - 00;50;35;19

Daria

or you could just go to my website, dariasommers.com and it's available there.

00;50;35;26 - 00;50;36;21

Pam

And also

00;50;36;28 - 00;50;41;02

Pam

if people want to follow your work how do they do that?

00;50;41;04 - 00;50;43;18

Daria

I'm on Instagram at,

00;50;43;21 - 00;50;49;10

Daria

thereallifedaria.

00;50;49;12 - 00;50;49;22

Pam

Yeah.

00;50;49;27 - 00;50;50;19

Pam

That's nice.

00;50;50;19 - 00;50;52;04

Pam

Well, thank you so much

00;50;52;07 - 00;50;56;24

Pam

for going into such depth and for sharing other aspects beyond this book.

00;50;56;27 - 00;51;01;01

Daria

Pam, it's been a real pleasure talking to you about all of this. And,

00;51;01;01 - 00;51;02;16

Daria

I still,

00;51;02;19 - 00;51;03;23

Daria

pinch myself,

00;51;03;25 - 00;51;05;03

Daria

to think that,

00;51;05;05 - 00;51;12;19

Daria

you know, there's that story that I was in some ways hiding that that history is,

00;51;12;19 - 00;51;14;16

Daria

now out in the world.

00;51;14;18 - 00;51;16;13

Pam

So thank you for

00;51;16;16 - 00;51;19;16

Pam

that is beautiful.

00;51;19;18 - 00;51;33;23

Pam

You’re listening to Art Heals All Wounds.

00;51;38;08 - 00;51;54;26

Pam

Thank you so much to Daria Sommers for being on the show to talk about her new book, Sawadika American Girl, and sharing her own story of bringing this part of history out from the shadows and finding connection with others who've also been touched by war.

00;51;54;28 - 00;52;01;01

Pam

I'll leave Daria’s information in the show notes so that you can connect with her and purchase the book.

00;52;01;04 - 00;52;20;02

Pam

Thanks to all of you for listening. I'm not using social media at the moment, but you can always reach me through my website. Art Heals All Wounds podcast.com. I also have a Substack where I post more info about the show, so please feel free to follow and reach out to me there too.

00;52;20;04 - 00;52;24;24

Pam

music you've heard. This podcast is by Ketsa, Lobo Loco and Barbara Higbie.