Ever felt trapped in a toxic relationship, craving for a ray of sunshine to show you the way out? Join us in the Vision-Driven Marriage Podcast as we sit down with Cass and Kathryn Morrow, founders of Morrow Marriage, who are the living embodiment of that ray of hope. Their courage to openly share their journey from a toxic, abusive marriage to a loving relationship is not just inspiring but also enlightening. Using their personal experiences, they shed light on emotional abuse, highlighting its varied forms and urging us to understand our own desires in a relationship to break the chain of harmful behaviors.
As we navigate the stormy sea of relationships with them, we urge you to take note of the "patience formula". It is their simple yet profound solution to handle conflicts, emphasizing the need for mutual support. Cass and Kathryn further explore the realm of individual responsibility in relationships, reminding us that we should not solely rely on our partner for validation. Their captivating conversation provides strategies to improve communication and express love in a healthy way to create lasting change.
Cass and Kathryn believe that communication, forgiveness, and commitment are the pillars of a healthy marriage. So, tune in for an episode filled with advice, insights, and strategies that promise to fortify your marriage. Together, let's create a wave of change and disrupt divorce one relationship at a time.
We Mentioned:
The Christmas Podcast Series: A Week of Stories to Fortify Your Faith
Find Cass & Kathryn Morrow here
INTRO/OUTRO MUSIC CREDITS
Theme music: Dead Winter
ASLC-1BEF9A9E-9E9D609662
Artists: White Bones
Composers: White Bones
Audio source: Epidemic Sound
Find out more about Doug and Leslie:
Ever felt trapped in a toxic relationship, craving for a ray of sunshine to show you the way out? Join us in the Vision-Driven Marriage Podcast as we sit down with Cass and Kathryn Morrow, founders of Morrow Marriage, who are the living embodiment of that ray of hope. Their courage to openly share their journey from a toxic, abusive marriage to a loving relationship is not just inspiring but also enlightening. Using their personal experiences, they shed light on emotional abuse, highlighting its varied forms and urging us to understand our own desires in a relationship to break the chain of harmful behaviors.
As we navigate the stormy sea of relationships with them, we urge you to take note of the "patience formula". It is their simple yet profound solution to handle conflicts, emphasizing the need for mutual support. Cass and Kathryn further explore the realm of individual responsibility in relationships, reminding us that we should not solely rely on our partner for validation. Their captivating conversation provides strategies to improve communication and express love in a healthy way to create lasting change.
Cass and Kathryn believe that communication, forgiveness, and commitment are the pillars of a healthy marriage. So, tune in for an episode filled with advice, insights, and strategies that promise to fortify your marriage. Together, let's create a wave of change and disrupt divorce one relationship at a time.
We Mentioned:
The Christmas Podcast Series: A Week of Stories to Fortify Your Faith
Find Cass & Kathryn Morrow here
INTRO/OUTRO MUSIC CREDITS
Theme music: Dead Winter
ASLC-1BEF9A9E-9E9D609662
Artists: White Bones
Composers: White Bones
Audio source: Epidemic Sound
Find out more about Doug and Leslie:
Welcome to the Vision Driven Marriage Podcast. If you're struggling in your marriage, or maybe you're wondering if it's even salvageable, before you give up or before you let things get too hard, let us come alongside you and help you solidify your marriage. We offer biblical encouragement and insight to help you strengthen your marriage.
Speaker 2:Today's episode is brought to you by our new podcast series, A Week of Stories to Fortify your Faith. This series brings you intimate and inspiring stories from people who've witnessed God's power and grace in their lives here, from Anna McLaughlin, Angie and Matt Bauman and others who have guested on the Vision Driven Marriage Podcast and get introduced to David and Tracy Sellers. Each episode is a testament to the transformative power of faith, offering a glimpse into the lives of our guests and how God used their relationship with their spouse to shape and inspire them. Join us for a week of stories that will strengthen your belief and inspire your faith journey. Click on the link in the show notes and get this exclusive podcast series only in your inbox. Now let's hear our interview with Cass and Catherine Morrow.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the Vision Driven Marriage Podcast. We're Doug and Leslie Davis. We are glad that you're here with us today. Today we've got some information for you and some encouragement for you that we might not have heard on our podcast before.
Speaker 2:We are welcoming today Cass and Catherine Morrow and they have Morrow Marriage and we are going to hear their excellent story of how they turned around literally turned around their toxic marriage.
Speaker 1:Welcome. It's good to have you guys with us today. Thank you so much for having us.
Speaker 3:It's so nice to be here.
Speaker 1:Cass and Catherine, we were so encouraged when we learned about the things that you're able to do to help other people. I know that you're helping men. You're helping women who are dealing with all kinds of relationship issues, so could you tell us a little bit about what got you in a place where you could help other couples?
Speaker 4:Wow, yes, it's been quite a wild ride. So I actually describe it as we came back from the depths of hell to save our marriage. And the reason why I always like to start with that is because if we could save our marriage, when you hear about it, you really have no excuse to honor your commitment and your oaths under God. So essentially, what happened was we needed to get into doing something new. We lost a business with COVID. I'd already been helping men with my journey and Catherine, my booster, rocket here, said what are you doing? Go help men A little lesson. A year later, I said the same thing to her what are you?
Speaker 4:doing Go help women and fast forward 20 months. We're about 4,000 couples in.
Speaker 2:Wow, yeah, that's awesome. So you overcame quite a bit in your marriage. I was just reading a little bit in your bio, so tell us about how in your story you came about. You overcame that toxicity to be able to be healthy and be in a healthy marriage.
Speaker 3:Well, that is a loaded question, because we did it so we've been together for about nine years and we have different timelines on when things started to get better. Because things were so bad for me that when he started to make changes it wasn't nearly enough. It wasn't what I needed. It still was not healthy, but he was. He felt like he was growing. I just couldn't see it because it was so bad. And so we went through all different types of abuse.
Speaker 3:I was very reactive back to him with his abuse. We, I guess when we turned a corner, we had a few things happen where my husband made all these changes but I didn't accept him and then eventually I had to call the police. There were lots of times I probably should have called the police and didn't. So when I called the police there was a mandatory restraining order and he was on probation for a year. So during that year it was actually a pretty good year. But I assumed that he was just on good behavior because all it would take was one phone call and he would go to jail. So I didn't believe that his changes were real. Well, that was really tough on him because I was sort of complacent and entitled to his good behavior. And you know I said why should I be thanking you for being a normal human. Why do I need to thank you for not being abusive, which, of course, if you hear how I speak now, I think you should show gratitude, no matter what. I had to learn that the hard way, and so I didn't show any gratitude. I wasn't thankful, I didn't respect his changes, I just sat back and enjoyed them. Well, he could only take that for so much. He needed to be boosted, he needed to be edified, he needed to be thanked, he needed to be recognized.
Speaker 3:And so he backslid very, very badly after that year and I got to the point where I said, okay, I was pregnant with our third, who's now two and a half, and I had one year old twin girls. We I say I because at the time I didn't feel like we were, we know and I said I'm done, I'm going to tell you what I'm going to work my butt off, I'm going to see what I can do to save, to save this marriage, and if I can't turn this around and if we can't figure this out, I'm leaving. So it took me about, I took, I took a course. It took it was a nine week course and I really had to fine tune my own behavior.
Speaker 3:So I really had to dig down to find that empathetic, validating, loving, nurturing woman that I knew was in there but was hiding. And when I was able to do that, as angry as he was and as much as he had backslid, he was able to be supported in the changes he had been trying to make for years, but unsuccessfully because he didn't have anybody in his corner. It's really hard to make changes if you are literally alone. So I think the biggest turning point for us was it's a crazy thing because it was I feel like it was his behavior that really had the light shone on it, but it was my behavior that allowed us to get over the hump and heal as a couple. I love that.
Speaker 2:I love that you're describing that it takes two, doesn't it it? It takes two and that you were responsible for your own stuff and Cass, you were responsible for your own stuff and I really like that because you know so often, like in the counseling office, I have heard so often, well, you need to fix her, or it's his fault, or you know, and it's like this big blame game, and I love that you guys just got to the point where you weren't really playing that blame game.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a hard place to be. So what was next?
Speaker 4:Well, actually, to be honest with you, it was just continue to learn and implement and practice. You know, if we think back now what we know and would implement even just your comment, it takes two. You know, we really firmly believe it takes one to lead, to start Whoever's watching whoever's listening to the show right now.
Speaker 4:If that's you, god bless you. You're in charge, get to work. And the reason is simple it's because you know you're never done the responsibility game once you start taking responsibility. I had to look within and continue to look within for the emotional, the physical, the sexual abuse. I had to look within with the narcissistic behavior, because it still comes out today. I'm just in control of it, right, so I can make sure that I respond. I don't react. So what came next? I think it's an ongoing journey of rise.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I'm rising up, you know. Yeah, I heard you talk about respond instead of react. Tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So I think the easiest way to explain it for your listeners would be this you know when you yell all the time, so we were daily anger binges is what I call them.
Speaker 3:I was picking a fight daily. Sometimes more than one.
Speaker 4:And a lot of the times it would be because I was taking something personal not feeling good enough, not feeling loved, validated, worthy. Actually, really, it's more about me not feeling good, not about her making me feel good, right, and so I tried to replace yelling with not yelling. But actually what you want to do is is provide structure for where you want the marriage to go Right. She needed fun, laughter dreams, she needed to feel excited about what we could do together and trust me and feel safe, and you can't just give that by saying, okay, I'm not yelling anymore which is really what my first two years was like Right.
Speaker 4:And yeah, if you want to respond on react, you need to be in control of your own insecurities. A monster, you know how good you feel. The anxiety that comes from that. The fear based decisions that make you react provide structure and she likes it. It works.
Speaker 2:I felt safe.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, provide security.
Speaker 4:I think a lot of, especially men they think well, if I don't hit her, I'm not abusing. And emotional abuse. Is I mean you actually? I?
Speaker 3:said I wished there was.
Speaker 3:There were days when I said I wish he would just hit me and get it over with because, he didn't hit me, he used physical intimidation, but he was just so contemptuous and so I just angry, inappropriate man, and I just wished that. Like you know, I thought that all these battered women, you know they're getting punched in the face, they're getting shoved up against the wall and I was like I wish and I know that people that are in that situation would wish that they're getting yelled at, but it just goes to show that it's so damaging, no matter what kind of abuse you're going through and no matter what type of abuse you're inflicting, it's so damaging.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it really, really. You have to think about if I look back now and I go, no wonder she didn't believe my changes, probation or not worried I'm going to go jail or not. If you undermine, constantly undermine the new person and the safety that's needed in a relationship, it doesn't matter what changes you make.
Speaker 1:You're just, you're just creating an environment of of contempt, of bitterness, of pain right, and I think one of the hard things is we forget sometimes that those emotional damages take a long time to heal. You know, we can recognize that if I have a bruise, it's going to heal faster than a broken arm is. We forget sometimes that some of the emotional damages is even longer than a broken arm in the healing process and so we do wish, well, I'm not doing this anymore. So isn't it better already? But there's still healing needs to take place and people don't always see those things like they would see a bruise. They don't see the emotional things that are going on, but they're very real.
Speaker 1:And so you know, I know a lot of our listeners have had to deal with some level of being angry and reacting instead of responding, saying things they wish they'd never said. And then they realize, you know, I can't take it back. What do I do now? It's a tough place to be in, but you know it becomes a problem when it becomes something that you're consistent habit, and I know that a lot of our listeners are dealing with. How do I get out of the cycle? How do I get out of that habit that feel like there's something in their marriage that's toxic? So what have you all learned that you could share with somebody who's dealing with something that's toxic in their marriage?
Speaker 4:I think that if you really want more, recognize what more looks like and do what that person would do. So, for example, one of the things that happened in the journey was because of the probation. I couldn't get mad. So we were fighting like every three days. Right, I couldn't really do what I would normally do. And I looked at her and I was like this is amazing, we're fighting every three days because I only knew daily fight since I was a kid taking fights every day. I literally people don't know what, you don't know, that's just it. But I recognized something she was like what did you say?
Speaker 4:you leaned in.
Speaker 3:I was like that's not normal.
Speaker 4:And he was like who are you?
Speaker 3:to say what's normal. And I said I'm going to just stand by that and say it's not normal, it's not healthy.
Speaker 4:I felt like she was trying to take away this first time experience of what Joey felt like for days in a row and it's again. It's not being good enough, right, and but what I think the very first thing you do is you recognize what is it that you want to feel? Nobody wants to be angry, no matter if you're partner. You just bought up. You know you say things you shouldn't say. We can talk about that for hours, but at the end of the day, what is it that you want? Are you proud of who you are? And if you can recognize that it doesn't matter what, you have a really good way of putting this. I say I don't care if she kicks you in the walls, I just don't. Are you going to be proud to do something back that would inflict pain? Are you protecting her, the marriage, the future, if you're defending yourself? Absolutely not.
Speaker 1:You know, that's a question more people need to ask themselves. It's a great question, I'm sorry. Go ahead, catherine.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was going to say, and from a woman's perspective, or the person that might be on the other side of the anger. So it doesn't mean that you don't show anger because I was very reactive. But to break that cycle, I tell people to validate the emotion, not the behavior. So, instead of reacting, if I could have validated his anger, because anger, it's okay, to have anger, it's okay to show anger, it's okay to express anger, it's not okay to yell, it's not okay to name call, it's not okay to physically intimidate. But if I would have learned earlier how to validate his emotions, how to validate his frustration, his anger. I didn't validate it, I actually judged it and then I responded with the same sort of emotions. And so how was I going to get anywhere? How was I going to influence or inspire him? Now, I had the scales all along, but he triggered me so badly that I turned into this monster which I know people will relate to. I didn't even know that woman was in there. Marriage brings out the worst.
Speaker 4:It was scary, but even though you must have been terrified of me, I was terrified, but I felt like I needed to turn into this person to defend myself.
Speaker 3:But I was wrong. But I did not know how to validate his anger because his anger came across so piercing. So if you're on the other side of it, whether you're a woman or a man, if you're listening today, if your partner is angry, break the cycle. I call it, I didn't name it, but attack, defend. So if your partner is attacking you in anger and the moment you defend yourself and you start to get reactive, it goes into a cycle of attack, defend, attack, defend and then, before you know it, you're both attacking and you're both defending.
Speaker 3:If you can stop in and if this takes strength, in the moment when you're being attacked and there's anger being spewed at you, think about what two things validate the emotion, not the behavior, and look for the message behind the contempt. There is a message there. If you can look beyond the body language, beyond the behaviors that you don't like, what is the emotion? Someone is hurting and they just don't know how to express themselves. So you can take leadership and remember those two things validate the emotion, not the behavior, and look for the message behind the contempt.
Speaker 2:It takes a lot of strength, but I think it sounds like it probably takes a lot of practice because if, like, once that cycle is broken and then you validate the emotion and pull out the message and sometimes it probably takes a couple of questions to pull out what that message is and then it feels like it probably feels like there is a new connection there in that relationship that probably hasn't been felt quite like that before, would you say that's what happened.
Speaker 4:I think I mean first and foremost thinking. You understand, almost always you're thinking about your own needs. So that's both of you, that's us, that's everybody.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:I think that sometimes people forget when you're married you're supposed to be one, right? If in that moment you can find that connection that you're talking about and realize what's the goal, now we can go back to what we talked about earlier structure for the direction you want this thing to go, because if you're just going to defend your own needs, you might as well not be married.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, that's true, and that's instinct.
Speaker 1:You know one of the things that you shared earlier, catherine, that was so important. You know, in the midst of getting attacked, you attack back. You know it's a lot of people either fight or they flee or they freeze, and a lot of us are fighters and we're pretty good at it, and you know it leads to a cycle that's really hard. And so one of the things that I've noticed is, first of all, you're going to, when you fix it and start doing it differently, you're going to do it wrong a lot before you do it right.
Speaker 1:You're going to mess up before you do it. Well. But the other thing that's interesting is remembering that you are the person who's closest to your spouse means two things you have the ability to do something differently, which is pretty cool, even though it's hard. But number two when you fight, you're the one that knows where the raw spots are, where you could really hurt them, which is why the fights are so bad. When they're in a marriage relationship, we know where to hurt our spouse. We know where to make them feel bad and to expose those insecurities and really hurt them back because they hurt us. And I think too many of our listeners right now are saying, yeah, that's where we're at, we don't want to stay there anymore. So what were some of the things that you found that helped you not stay in that situation?
Speaker 4:I would say this is something that I've learned to teach men now that I wish I would have had back then. This is more important because, again, we didn't have all the. It took us too long, you know, but I use something called the patience formula, right? So we can't decide what hurts our partner, what their triggers are, what their pain, their programming is like from childhood any of that stuff right Game together and they brought a lot of it in and then you made it worse.
Speaker 4:So if you can think of I'm making changes, this is what I want, I'm going to relieve the pressure, release them. It's not their job, it's not your job to take care of them and what they're supposed to do. So the length of time, less the pain, the trauma, the wounds she gets to decide, not me, how much that hurts, less my tolerance, right. And so you'll start to realize pretty quickly that in the fights, in deciding who you want to be, in taking things less personal, you can be a lot more patient than you think, because no matter what, the damage is there if you're talking about toxicity, the damage is there. So give the partner the grace, the patience and love, because people think it has to be so fast. We're talking about decades of happiness now. It didn't have to be fixed overnight and I think that's what really slowed us down and screwed us up. You can flip that. You'd be different.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I would say that as women, we end up building a lot of bitterness and resentment because women are generally softer and even in the couples that we work with, it generally is the men that are a little bit more aggressive and the women are a little bit softer and they allow this wall to be built up. And what I teach is remember that it's not your responsibility to manage your husband's emotions. It's never your responsibility. But if you can take it as an opportunity because, like he said, you're supposed to be one, your husband or your wife supposed to be your best friend so if you think of it as an opportunity you get to help him through. It's not your responsibility to manage, but if you have the ability, like you said, you have the ability to hurt your partner because you know their source box and also have the ability to help them through the they're struggling with.
Speaker 3:But if you see it as responsibility, you'll allow the wall of bitterness to build. If you see it as opportunity and remember that it's a privilege, you would love this person once and you wanted to marry this person and you wanted to have children with this person. It's so bad, you wanted that ring on your finger. So it's an opportunity. It's the privilege to be able to speak into somebody's life and to help them, because it's going to benefit you. It's not, you know. Look what I have to do. It's look what I get to do.
Speaker 4:I would love to touch on something that you said, because it's really important for your listeners. You had the power to influence the negative behavior of your partner meaning we use that, that punchy in the face example we talked about earlier.
Speaker 4:Right, if you didn't do that on the first date, then the behavior gradually got to where there was this physical, this tongue, lashing, this blame, this, whatever, which means you enabled it. So if you can think about it like this, if you have the power to influence negative behavior, then you have the power to influence positive behavior.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 4:Just be who you want to be. It goes back to the same.
Speaker 1:I think that's huge and you know, the combination of what the two of you just shared is an amazing thing. I really want our listeners to process a little bit of it, because you cannot be the one who's responsible for the changes in your spouse, but every single day you have an opportunity to help them. They have to be the ones that make those decisions to be able to make the good choices in a positive direction, but you have the opportunity to come along and help. What an awesome thing for us to remember. You know you're not responsible for them, but you have an opportunity to help them every day, to influence them, right To influence them.
Speaker 2:And so, as I was reading through your guys' stuff, I came across a little blurb about automatic turnoffs and I thought, well, that's interesting, let's talk about that for just a little bit. What are automatic turnoffs?
Speaker 4:I believe that automatic turnoffs are everything from conversations right to sex, right. So if you do it, doesn't really matter what resource you come across, but if you do these things and they're the ways that we are taught to fix the problems in marriage, okay, and I don't know how this isn't thought of, and probably because I have gone a little further than some of the other resources, but it's spelled out by the word society, right? So the S would be, for example, I provide, I protect him, I'm a great dad, I'm a great guy.
Speaker 4:Social cubes, meaning you think your wife should be happy with you. Your wife shouldn't be in love with you. Your wife should think you're this great man because you bring all the paycheck. That's freaking normal. I don't know what you're talking about. That's what you need to do. So when you start throwing it in your face, throwing your partner's face saying this is why I'm so wonderful, essentially it's kind of right before you go to the blame game or mixing it at the same time. Right If you work your way down through. The last one is a yes man with the why and it's happy wife, happy life. You know, people aren't focused on what they need to do as partners. They're focused on again trying to placate and please Right, and so a lot of the normal solutions that we are taught, I think, is men to fix things. They just really push your wife away. They just don't bring you closer.
Speaker 2:They just automatic turn offs.
Speaker 4:Yeah, automatically, you should be doing them because you're an adult. Let's use private. If your wife leaves you, you still have to provide, you still have to be a great dad, so why would you think that makes you special, right, right? Although?
Speaker 1:we're living in a society right now where you know people want. I think it's normal for us to want to feel like we have something special to offer and we're living in a society where a lot of people are being told all the time that there's things that make them special. That are just those things, like you said, that we kind of are expected to do. We should just be doing. You know, and it makes me laugh when I hear somebody say, yes, you're special, and I'm thinking in my head, you know, just like everyone else, you know there are some things that through those, the desires for somebody to recognize what we're doing, is really something that should be a red flag for us to say why am I doing those things? I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 4:I think that, again, we all want to be loved, Right, we all want to feel like we're good enough, and it's now really becoming really popular opinion. Right, you better take care of your own needs. You better give yourself self approval, validation. But listen, every relationship you start is it's starting with that when you met your spouse. You're so beautiful, your brain is so like, you're so funny. I'm going to drop everything. I'm not going to see my friends, I'm going to see you today. That's all approval, validation and meeting needs, but it slowly gets replaced with well, wait a minute. You, what do you mean? You don't want me today? What do you mean? You're in a bad mood and I'm taking it personal. How do you what? And you start to replace all the love and validation needs being met with I don't have time, You're not doing enough. It's playing games, and so if people could recognize that, then they could realize again go back to who.
Speaker 4:Are you defending yourself for your marriage, Right? I think a lot of times you're going to have a problem, right? Think about all the comments we get on our social media. My partner won't, my partner doesn't. I've tried everything. Listen, if you're in a toxic relationship, you haven't tried everything. It does take two, but I guarantee you if you're saying I've tried everything, you're committed to not trying everything. That's why you're defending yourself saying I've tried everything. How do I know? Because look at where our story went Right. I kept I'd keep showing up at back, said I'd keep taking responsibility. Oh wait, she realized she could be a light. She could get you have a narcissist. Everything's seven narcissists now. Love and compassion is what narcissists need. That's what we need.
Speaker 4:We need somebody to show us what true love and empathy can feel like, so that we do have love. That is validation Right.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 4:So I think again it goes back to what is it that you really want in the future?
Speaker 2:You yeah, yeah, and I think that is an excellent word for for all of us, you know, not just our listeners, but us too. As you know, we're we're not perfect, we haven't gotten it off yet, and we've been married for 34 years, and so, yes, we have Amazing.
Speaker 1:You know, and in the process of it all, I know that at some level everybody can relate with the things that you've shared. Where we see, where I want to give encouragement to our listeners today, is if you're thinking, I'm dealing with that at a really high level. I'm dealing with these things. You know, in a way that I'm not sure that we can fix it and change it. I want you to know you can fix it and change it, but instead of looking at trying to fix your spouse, you need to start with doing what you're supposed to do. Make sure you take that responsibility. It's a good word, it's a wise word, and understand you're going to do it wrong a little bit before you develop the pattern of doing it right.
Speaker 1:You know we haven't learned any of the important things in life and done it perfectly from the. You know, from the beginning we couldn't even learn to walk without falling down a lot and to a degree. When we're learning to show love, the way we're supposed to show love, it's going to be a process. It's not. It would be great if we could flip a switch and overnight you could do it differently, but the reality is it's going to be a process, it's going to be a responsibility. It's going to be an oops that didn't work. I need to do it better, but it's going to be something that's worth it. So what have you guys found through the process that this to this point in the journey that you're on? What have you found? Or the great benefits of working through the struggles that you've had to do things differently?
Speaker 3:You turn Okay Benefits. Well, you know, if we didn't work through it, we would have separate lives, and my husband I think this is one of the biggest things is my husband would be on a path of destruction. Still so, if he didn't make the changes, it would have continued to get worse. He would have ruined he almost ruined my life. We were able to turn it around. He would have ruined somebody else's life, probably multiple people.
Speaker 4:Catherine was the worst person I'd ever treated because after I always said my parents paid the next two decades of my adult life and every relationship was progressively worse, and Catherine was the one that I nearly destroyed, the one person I wouldn't want to.
Speaker 3:So I can't even imagine what I would have been like if I would have lost Catherine.
Speaker 3:If I would have left it, he would literally be on a path of destruction. Our children would have separate homes and I one of the reasons that I worked so hard to maintain our marriage. The goal wasn't even to maintain the relationship. I was just terrified of him raising our children and me losing 50% custody of our own more baby and my one year old twin girls. What I think was the first Forbes article said the beautiful byproduct of me trying to save my children was that I got my husband back. So I think the biggest benefit is it's you know, sort of as a whole, our family is whole and each person in our family is whole, and we would. That's not what we would have if we would have separated.
Speaker 3:And then also, we can't ignore the fact that we've helped over 4,000 people and when people get to us, we help some of the most extreme situations because people have very vulnerable with us and we're also very candid. I will stop someone in their tracks and make sure that they are listening if they're not hearing what I have to say. But it's. I was told yesterday that I have the chain breaking, anointing, which I never thought of it that way. I said the only. I knew that the only way that I could be doing what I'm doing is with the anointing, but I never really thought of it and she said you do too. I got a voice message last night that explained this to me and said that this is, this is why, when I speak, people stop, and when I speak, when we speak, things change, and so we wouldn't have been able. Going back to the question, what is the biggest benefit? Well, the ripple effect of us having a whole family and having individual whole people, not perfect, like you said. I joke that I'm 97% there.
Speaker 3:Oh, she's out to look the 3% can still be really vicious, but if we did not do that for our own family, we would not be able to tell our story around the world and there would be other families. This is just going to get exponentially larger because God has his hand on this little business and it's 4,000 people now, but his you know slogan disrupting divorce. That's what we're trying to do. So family, which the devil is trying to destroy is. We're just playing a small part, but the ripple effect is huge.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I I would be passionate about the answer to this question.
Speaker 4:I think it's really cool because it's just like connecting with you. You know, I spoke with a wonderful man the other day who wrote a book about masculine relationships that's what's called, actually and it's connecting us with the kind of people because there is no one person or couple. You know, we, if we're going to do this, if we're going to beat the devil, we need to work together.
Speaker 2:This is a massive problem worldwide.
Speaker 4:So, what that's. What I would say is the benefit. It's the humbling experience to be able to do God's work in God's marriage and go change some lies. And then the ripple effect. I had a guy in our days. He's got a mortgage brokerage. He's one of my clients and he says I'm applying the principles from the course in my business and I can't even tell you how much better businesses, how much more the morale is, how much happier I don't have to pay them our money. They just want to do more and they're taking it to their home Right Like this is amazing stuff.
Speaker 3:You know so humbling, yeah, so humbling. We had prophecies as we were in our depths of hell. Like we explained it, we had multiple prophecies for people to tell us we'd be laying hands and couples and we thought we're kidding, we're like, oh nice trip and here we are. It's all. We're living it right now. So it's the most humbling experience.
Speaker 1:Oh, I know that these humbling experiences are something that sometimes are hard to process, but I want to think which you guys for what you're doing, because there's too many people who are trying to help others who aren't willing to be vulnerable, they're not willing to open up.
Speaker 1:You guys have been through a lot and it was hard, and you're honest about that. So the people who are going through those things that it's a lot and it's hard they're able to understand, because of your willingness to be open, that not only is there somebody who can help them, but that there is hope and there is the opportunity for redemption on the other side of it. And so what's happening, not only in your marriage, but then through what you're doing to help other marriages, is a thing that encourages me greatly. I want to encourage the two of you to keep doing it, because there's too many people that say, well, those folks that are helping, they couldn't have possibly gone through the things that I've gone through. I'm really grateful. I'm not grateful that you had to go through what you went through, but I'm grateful that it's being used to help other people who might not otherwise have hope.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely. So where can our listeners find you?
Speaker 4:Oh easy, Moralmarriagecom.
Speaker 2:Very good Right. I will link that in the show notes for sure.
Speaker 4:Moral marriage on social media. Yeah, come, help us out, spread the word. Let's go see we call it the new marriage. Go spread some love now. Let's do it Right.
Speaker 2:Disrupting divorce. I love it yeah.
Speaker 1:And so one of the things that's been so encouraging for us today is your story and the continuation of your story. It's not just where you've been, it's the path that you're currently on. We are so thankful for it. We're thankful for your time here with us today, and we want to thank not only you. We want to encourage our listeners. Check these guys out. Check out Cass and Catherine. What they're doing is an amazing thing. Pray for them. If you need some help, contact them, find out what you can do. And we want to thank you so much for being an important part of the vision driven marriage. We're Doug and Leslie Davis. This is the vision driven marriage podcast, and we continue to pray that God will solidify your marriage.